Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am
Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking a guide for Life's Biggest
Speaker 1: Decisions with Abby Davison. That's right at a time, you know,
Speaker 1: when we might be experiencing one of the biggest shifts
Speaker 1: in work life balance, like maybe since the Industrial Revolution. Um,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's more important than ever to make
Speaker 1: sure that we are making the best possible uh decisions.
Speaker 1: Enter Abby Davidson and her new book that she's co authored,
Speaker 1: Money and Love and Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions.
Speaker 1: And in the book, Abby she lays out a framework
Speaker 1: to help empower folks to make the best strategic decisions
Speaker 1: without having to sacrifice their careers or their personal lives.
Speaker 1: It's the common nation of the rational with the emotional,
Speaker 1: and that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Abby,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, have you were glad to have
Speaker 1: you and glad to get into touch an easy subject.
Speaker 1: This must have been a quick book to write, taken
Speaker 1: no time. Sounds like, you know, it's just one of
Speaker 1: those things that's intuitive, right, just absolutely just back of
Speaker 1: the napkin and a few meals. We're good. Yeah, by
Speaker 1: the seat of your pants. With these big old decisions, right,
Speaker 1: the ones that kind of make or break our lives,
Speaker 1: to change us as people. But um, yeah, the first
Speaker 1: question we ask people who come on the on the show,
Speaker 1: we want to know what's your craft beer equivalent? What
Speaker 1: do you suppore John while you're saving and investing for
Speaker 1: your future. Well, funny story about that. When I was
Speaker 1: growing up, my parents, who are big savers, you know,
Speaker 1: both born and raised in the Midwest, spent money on
Speaker 1: two things. One was experiences. They I joked that they
Speaker 1: were like millennials without knowing it, so they we'd go
Speaker 1: to restaurants, we'd see Broadway shows, we traveled, and and
Speaker 1: books and my mom was trained as a librarian, and
Speaker 1: I just couldn't get it. I was like, we you know,
Speaker 1: we can get these for free, we can go to
Speaker 1: the library. And I just didn't make sense to me
Speaker 1: why we could cook meals at home but we would
Speaker 1: spend money at restaurants. And fast forward now, the two
Speaker 1: things that I splurge on our experiences and books. So
Speaker 1: you know, the apple does not fall far from the tree,
Speaker 1: even if you are a little skeptical when you are younger.
Speaker 1: That's funny. Yeah, I feel like that's a response I
Speaker 1: hear all the time from super intelligent folks. Are like,
Speaker 1: I spare no expense on books, and I like to read.
Speaker 1: I don't read as much as I would like to, though,
Speaker 1: But I'm always amazed though that people don't utilize the
Speaker 1: library as much as they can. I'm using Libby for
Speaker 1: audio books all the time, but I get it, and
Speaker 1: especially if you're like the iPhones, so it's always there.
Speaker 1: But if you're the kind of person like your mark
Speaker 1: those pages and you like to go back and you're
Speaker 1: an avid reader, I mean a book is still well
Speaker 1: worth the price, absolutely, And I have two little kids,
Speaker 1: and so it's really fun to see. Actually I have
Speaker 1: books that my mom wrote inscriptions to me in, you know,
Speaker 1: Charlotte's Web when we read it together, And now I
Speaker 1: get to read that to my kids and they see,
Speaker 1: you know, the note that their grandma wrote in. So
Speaker 1: I love that we we do something similar with with
Speaker 1: every I guess of the more serious books that we read,
Speaker 1: we always try to write our name and the date
Speaker 1: on there as well. Same things sort of Joel like, like
Speaker 1: like you and I do with our board games. Whoever,
Speaker 1: it's a record of who who is one recently, it's
Speaker 1: a record of who has held that copy and read it.
Speaker 1: But I love that Abby. So speaking of of your book,
Speaker 1: let's kind of like dive into money and love. What
Speaker 1: was the impetus behind the book? Why did you and
Speaker 1: your co author write it? Yeah? Well, I when I
Speaker 1: was in my early to mid twenties, I really struggled
Speaker 1: with how to make big life decisions. And you know,
Speaker 1: like everyone, you know, you're making them a lot in
Speaker 1: that stage. Right, Should I move to a new city
Speaker 1: even if I don't have a job there, just because
Speaker 1: I want to live there? Um, when I do get
Speaker 1: a job, offer multiple offers if I'm lucky, you know
Speaker 1: which one should I take? Is this person that I'm
Speaker 1: dating the on? Um? Should I turn down a full
Speaker 1: scholarship to one grade school to go to maybe your other?
Speaker 1: Your top choice? And so these are all decisions I faced,
Speaker 1: and but I just I didn't feel great about how
Speaker 1: I was making them. It didn't stop me from making decisions,
Speaker 1: but I just felt uncertain about my approach. And then
Speaker 1: when I was in graduate school, I took a class
Speaker 1: taught by my co author, Mirah Strober, and suddenly I
Speaker 1: realized why this was so hard, and I you know
Speaker 1: why I was going around about my decision making all wrong,
Speaker 1: And it's because the conventional wisdom is that if you
Speaker 1: have a money decision to make, think about it with
Speaker 1: your head, look at the four one k off or
Speaker 1: for the job, think about the salary, the career progression,
Speaker 1: and if that front, yeah, And if you have a
Speaker 1: relationship decision to make, you know, just follow your heart.
Speaker 1: You know, how does that person make you feel? But
Speaker 1: you know, in reality, money and love decisions are completely intertwined,
Speaker 1: and if your process doesn't take this reality into account,
Speaker 1: you're going to miss a critical part of the picture.
Speaker 1: And so I took Myra's class and just this light
Speaker 1: bulb went off, and I happened to be dating someone
Speaker 1: at the time who was also in the class. We
Speaker 1: had met at graduate school. We've been dating for about
Speaker 1: a year, and we were in our second year, so
Speaker 1: we were about to graduate, and we need to make
Speaker 1: decisions like should we look for jobs and in the
Speaker 1: same city, and if we end up in the same city,
Speaker 1: should we move in together? And because of Myra's class,
Speaker 1: we were forced into some really uncomfortable conversations that we
Speaker 1: didn't feel ready to make um or feel ready for,
Speaker 1: but it turned out to be so critical to building
Speaker 1: the foundation of relationship. And we're fast forward today. We
Speaker 1: have been married thirteen years, we have two kids, We've
Speaker 1: navigated lots of job changes, and so we wrote the
Speaker 1: book so that others would have access to the same information.
Speaker 1: We didn't want it to be the best kept secret
Speaker 1: of Stanford Business School. Yeah, no, I like that bringing
Speaker 1: that to the masses. And it sounds like that class
Speaker 1: was helpful to getting you both on the same page
Speaker 1: with kind of so the ways you think about some
Speaker 1: of these complex decisions. And one of the things you
Speaker 1: mentioned that what you say, a big part of making
Speaker 1: better decisions in this arena is to not make decisions
Speaker 1: too hastily, right, So is part of the problem sometimes
Speaker 1: that we're just we're rushing things absolutely. I mean, we
Speaker 1: as humans do not like uncertainty, and so when we're
Speaker 1: weighing multiple options, you're actually sitting in uncertainty or you're
Speaker 1: kind of in this pause, and so our tendency, it's
Speaker 1: human nature, is to just get to the other side
Speaker 1: of the decision, like just just make a decision, and um,
Speaker 1: it turns out while that make might make us more
Speaker 1: comfortable in the moment, it could lead to some things
Speaker 1: that we regret over the longer term. And so we
Speaker 1: definitely advocate slowing down and not making certainly those big
Speaker 1: decisions overnight. Yeah, I feel like and I mean, just
Speaker 1: our world today, it seems is only encouraging us to
Speaker 1: make those decisions incredibly quickly, just the amount of information
Speaker 1: that we're inundated with. Right. But with that mind though,
Speaker 1: you can plan things out perfectly, right, but the world
Speaker 1: it likes to throw us curveballs, both personally but then
Speaker 1: also just from a from a macro perspective. Just think
Speaker 1: about everything that we've experienced over the past couple of years.
Speaker 1: So how would you recommend for folks to factor in
Speaker 1: the inevitability of uncertainty when it comes to their decision
Speaker 1: making processes. Yeah? Absolutely, I mean, if if nothing else,
Speaker 1: the last few years has taught us that you can
Speaker 1: make plans. But you know, the saying is, uh, you
Speaker 1: people plan and God laughs right. Yeah, Um, so we
Speaker 1: certainly aren't saying, oh, if you follow this process, it
Speaker 1: will just be like clockwork. But what we do believe
Speaker 1: and we've road tested what we call our five Seas
Speaker 1: framework over the past several years, and not this has
Speaker 1: not been a smooth, you know, paved road, right. We've
Speaker 1: been like in a jeep with potholes and mudslides and monsoons.
Speaker 1: Like it's been very uncertain, tricky terrain. And we we
Speaker 1: know that even when those inevitable curve balls get thrown
Speaker 1: at us, if you're following a says that you are
Speaker 1: aware of that you are intentional about that, you feel
Speaker 1: more confident on the other side, regardless of of the outcome,
Speaker 1: and you feel like you've actually approached it in a
Speaker 1: thoughtful way, and no matter what happens that you didn't expect,
Speaker 1: you can't say that you didn't do your best in
Speaker 1: terms of actually approaching it. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: I think even if you end up getting down the
Speaker 1: road and you're like, man, I kind of wish I'd
Speaker 1: gone the other route, at least you put it through
Speaker 1: a rigorous process, right, And it's tougher to beat yourself
Speaker 1: up endlessly because you went through some sort of framework.
Speaker 1: And you talk about the five Seas framework in the book,
Speaker 1: Can you give us a brief overview of what that
Speaker 1: looks like we're going to talk about in a bit
Speaker 1: some of the major decisions that you cover and how
Speaker 1: to think through them. But I think the framework could
Speaker 1: be helpful to kind of get to that. Now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: i'll give you, I'll give you kind of a high
Speaker 1: level of the five season. Then I'll just go deeper
Speaker 1: into one that I think your listeners will especially be
Speaker 1: interested in. So the first is clarify what's important to you.
Speaker 1: The second is communicate with the people who are involved
Speaker 1: in the decision. The third is choices, evaluate all the
Speaker 1: possible choices, the fourth is check in with friends, family,
Speaker 1: trusted resources, and the fifth is consequences. And I want
Speaker 1: to just touch on this consequences step because you know,
Speaker 1: I imagine people listening to the show are thinking a lot,
Speaker 1: particularly about the financial consequences of decisions, and just hypothetically
Speaker 1: so um by a house. It's way outside my proctory.
Speaker 1: It's one of the consequences of that. Yeah. So I
Speaker 1: think again, human nature is that we think a lot
Speaker 1: about the near term consequences. We actually overweight Research shows
Speaker 1: the near term consequences of decisions, and so when you're
Speaker 1: making a big life decision, it's important to make yourself
Speaker 1: think about all the different time horizons, right, not just
Speaker 1: the short term, say like between now and six months,
Speaker 1: but the medium term, say, you know, six months to
Speaker 1: a couple of years, and then you know, what's the
Speaker 1: long term consequences beyond a couple of years and and
Speaker 1: those it's important to overcome that UM near term bias
Speaker 1: by by tricking our brains and to plane out those consequences.
Speaker 1: And you can certainly do things like assigned possible outcomes
Speaker 1: to positive and negative consequences. You can, you know, get
Speaker 1: nerdy like my husband and I did and assigned probabilities
Speaker 1: and create decision trees. UM. Talk about that if you're interested.
Speaker 1: But UM, you know it, just making sure that you've
Speaker 1: sort of played things out, not just what you can
Speaker 1: kind of imagine you're going to be faced with in
Speaker 1: in kind of the next couple of months, but further
Speaker 1: down the road can be really helpful to UM. Examining
Speaker 1: the possible consequences of your actions. Yeah, I like that,
Speaker 1: and I think one of the things that it makes
Speaker 1: me think about is even just the first question we
Speaker 1: asked you out of the gate, what's your craft beer equivalent?
Speaker 1: Because I think it's important for people to identify that, like,
Speaker 1: what is it that you want to spend money on
Speaker 1: right now, even while you're being smart with your money
Speaker 1: for the future, Because if you don't have that outlet,
Speaker 1: if you don't have that release valve, there are consequences
Speaker 1: to that too, right to not enjoying at least some
Speaker 1: of the money that comes into your life. So I
Speaker 1: think even a question like that is important for helping
Speaker 1: fuel the money decisions that we make, because there are
Speaker 1: long term and short term consequences that we bear, and
Speaker 1: if we don't, you know, use our money proactively in
Speaker 1: ways that are going to make us happy in the
Speaker 1: here and now, it's the investing for the long term
Speaker 1: might be short lived. So those are I think that
Speaker 1: thinking about it in terms of different time periods for
Speaker 1: the possible consequences is really wise. So I was actually
Speaker 1: I was curious which of the five sees that you
Speaker 1: thought might be most consequential to our listeners, avvy, But what, like,
Speaker 1: what is it about like long term thinking versus short
Speaker 1: term thinking? Like is it just because we experience the
Speaker 1: short term most immediately most directly, that we're only thinking
Speaker 1: about the here and now and oftentimes we're not thinking
Speaker 1: about our future selves. Like it makes you think about
Speaker 1: how like we we've recommended before Joel and I to
Speaker 1: like mess around with the face app even and it's like,
Speaker 1: let's see what you might look like in fifty years
Speaker 1: with future you, because oftentimes I think we do have
Speaker 1: a tough time thinking that far off in the future.
Speaker 1: But I'm I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts
Speaker 1: as well as to why it is that we do that. No,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right, and I think there have been studies
Speaker 1: showing that when you do see renderings of yourself in
Speaker 1: the future, you do make better decisions for the long term.
Speaker 1: It's actually one of the reasons I love having a
Speaker 1: co author who's in her eighties, because she's seen so
Speaker 1: many decades of life that I haven't yet, and so
Speaker 1: it's very helpful when there is a um something that
Speaker 1: happens right like a pandemic, to say, Okay, well, I
Speaker 1: haven't quite seen this before, but I do know that
Speaker 1: we're going to come out of this, and so that
Speaker 1: long term perspective is so helpful. And you can't get
Speaker 1: that unless you've lived it in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: but you can sort of trick your brain UM into
Speaker 1: thinking that by playing out the longer term consequences over decades.
Speaker 1: And you can do that with your budget, right your
Speaker 1: financials and UM certainly before you make big decisions like
Speaker 1: buying a house, people do that, but you don't always
Speaker 1: do that with UM relationship decisions right with UM. You know,
Speaker 1: getting married, you might do a budget for a wedding,
Speaker 1: but maybe you're not UM modeling out what it would
Speaker 1: look like to combine debt over time. And those are
Speaker 1: some things that is really a really important to think
Speaker 1: about in the long term. Yeah, well, I like what
Speaker 1: you said to age group, Like I feel like we
Speaker 1: we are. We tend in modern America to silo amongst
Speaker 1: age groups. And there is something massively beneficial about having
Speaker 1: a relationship with your grandparents, about having an older neighbor
Speaker 1: next door that you look in on, take and from them,
Speaker 1: you know, like, yeah, we we are are we We
Speaker 1: value youth in our Yeah, and in many ways to
Speaker 1: our detriment. Um. I want to nail in on one
Speaker 1: of the other sees for a minute, Abbey before we
Speaker 1: kind of get into some of the specific topics you
Speaker 1: cover in the book. Communication right easier said than done.
Speaker 1: Most of us were not great at it. Uh, And
Speaker 1: so can you give some advice on when and how
Speaker 1: to communicate effectively when you're kind of talking through some
Speaker 1: of these major decisions. What does communication look like? Kind
Speaker 1: of broadly speaking. Yeah, well, so the first thing to
Speaker 1: keep in mind before you communicate is knowing where you stand,
Speaker 1: what you want and so that's hopefully what you've done
Speaker 1: in the first step. So when you get to the
Speaker 1: communicate step, this is you know, communicating with anyone who's
Speaker 1: involved in a big decision, so not making an assumption
Speaker 1: of what that person might value or or find important.
Speaker 1: You know, the biggest thing to keep in mind when
Speaker 1: you're starting a conversation is when to do it right,
Speaker 1: especially if you're talking about these big meadia topics. Don't
Speaker 1: do it as you're you know, starting the morning rush
Speaker 1: to get the kids out the door for school and
Speaker 1: you're trying to remember all the backpacks and homework folders
Speaker 1: and lunches, right, that's not an excellent time to make
Speaker 1: sure that you're able to be calm and keep keep
Speaker 1: your head about you. So, you know, I personally what
Speaker 1: works for me is to do it on hikes. My
Speaker 1: husband and I are big hikers. And so we'll just
Speaker 1: kind of get out of our daily you know, all
Speaker 1: the piles of laundry and and the dishes that need
Speaker 1: to be done, go out on a hike, let our kids,
Speaker 1: you know, run up ahead, and then have a conversation
Speaker 1: about some of these bigger topics when we're just kind
Speaker 1: of in neutral territory, when we're in nature. Um, that
Speaker 1: can be really helpful because you're not surrounded by the
Speaker 1: stressors of day to day life. So thinking about the
Speaker 1: setting of where you communicate is equally, if not more
Speaker 1: important than thinking through what you're going to communicate. And certainly,
Speaker 1: you know, let's say, the last thing I want to
Speaker 1: share about this is is listening. Right, So many of us,
Speaker 1: when we're talking, especially about big things that make us anxious,
Speaker 1: we try to just get our thoughts out as quickly
Speaker 1: as possible and just you know, make sure that the
Speaker 1: other person has heard us. But but really, when you're communicating,
Speaker 1: it is a conversation, and you want to make sure
Speaker 1: you're listening just as much as um as you're talking,
Speaker 1: if not more. Right, the whole old adage about like
Speaker 1: the two ears one mouth, and that's about the amount
Speaker 1: of time that you should be spending, and I think
Speaker 1: it's true, especially about these big decisions. I love it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now I love in particular that you you and your
Speaker 1: husband do that while you're hiking, just as a way
Speaker 1: to kind of diffuse the situation, especially if it's something
Speaker 1: that's uh a topic that might come with heightened emotions.
Speaker 1: And Okay, so along these lines in your book, you
Speaker 1: reference the Gottman's who there are there these relational experts,
Speaker 1: but you lay out the negative communication styles that they mentioned,
Speaker 1: Like what do we need to avoid when it comes
Speaker 1: to comes to these kinds of interaction besides just having
Speaker 1: it uncomfortably in the morning at a terrible time, Like,
Speaker 1: what are the other negative communication methods that we can sidestep. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: they say that they can predict within like fifteen seconds
Speaker 1: of a conversation whether a couple is going to get
Speaker 1: divorced just based on their communication styles. So I think
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. But yeah, I mean, certainly, um, what they
Speaker 1: do not like is people who are who just shut down.
Speaker 1: You know, that's called stonewalling, right you you, Um, one
Speaker 1: person introduces a topic and the other person just refuses
Speaker 1: to engage. I mean, that is definitely a recipe for
Speaker 1: disaster because you might try to turn a blind eye
Speaker 1: to these conversations, but life is going to happen whether
Speaker 1: you're you know, engaged with them or not. And so
Speaker 1: if you can, you know, have the conversation with your partner,
Speaker 1: even tried to do it on neutral territory as possible
Speaker 1: and diffuse a situation certainly, making sure that you're you're engaging,
Speaker 1: that you're you know, thinking about yourselves sitting on the
Speaker 1: same side of the table against the problem as opposed
Speaker 1: to it's me against you. It's like, no, the problem
Speaker 1: is you know, we have our kids going to college
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have to save for that. Not oh,
Speaker 1: you're spending this much and you're spending that much. It's
Speaker 1: like no, Actually, let's be a united front against the problem.
Speaker 1: And the more you can sort of think of the
Speaker 1: discussion like that, the better off you'll be. Like that
Speaker 1: that are We've got more to get to including we
Speaker 1: just want to really dive in now on those additional
Speaker 1: chapters where you literally give people frameworks for how to
Speaker 1: think through the biggest love and money decisions in their lives,
Speaker 1: dating and marriage. We're talking about uh prenups, about having kids, Uh, insurance,
Speaker 1: things like that, where you choose to live. We're gonna
Speaker 1: get too questions on all of the above right after this.
Speaker 1: All right, we are back from the break talking with
Speaker 1: Abby Davison. Let's talk about some of the I guess,
Speaker 1: the major decisions that relate to love and money that
Speaker 1: a lot of folks encounter just throughout their lives, Like
Speaker 1: what should folks consider when it comes to dating and
Speaker 1: when it comes to marriage, because you know, these are
Speaker 1: some pretty big decisions. These are choices that are going
Speaker 1: to have massive, a massive impact in both realms when
Speaker 1: it comes to your money and when it comes to
Speaker 1: relationships and love. Yeah, I mean, money is such a
Speaker 1: big topic and we are so strongly influenced by our
Speaker 1: own money stories and and so it's really important to
Speaker 1: tell them to each other early and just get that
Speaker 1: baggage out on the table so that you know what
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. And you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: that my husband and I talked about early on was debt.
Speaker 1: Actually I had taken on student debt to go to
Speaker 1: grad school, but I knew I was going to work
Speaker 1: for a nonprofit after I graduated, and so um My
Speaker 1: Stanford was going to pay back my loans. That was
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I chose to attend there is
Speaker 1: that they had that policy. But I knew that if
Speaker 1: we did get married. Once we got married, they were
Speaker 1: going to take both of our assets into account and
Speaker 1: I would have had I had to disclose his assets
Speaker 1: in addition to mine. And so we talked about that.
Speaker 1: This was like even before you know we uh we
Speaker 1: be proposed and we got engaged, we talked about how
Speaker 1: after that happened, you know, what would happen to my debt?
Speaker 1: You know, would he help me pay back my loans
Speaker 1: because he was certainly going to prevent me from getting
Speaker 1: Stanford to pay it back and so, um, you know,
Speaker 1: just just talking a out things that we have, like debt.
Speaker 1: But also, you know, I love the question that you
Speaker 1: start out with, you know, what budget item do you
Speaker 1: spend reckless amounts of money on? Because we don't want
Speaker 1: someone to say, like, oh, no, that thing that brings
Speaker 1: you joy, like you can't do that anymore exactly, no
Speaker 1: more craft beers for the rest of the table. Get
Speaker 1: the run away. Yeah, okay, So when you say get
Speaker 1: it on the table, I am curious, like you're probably
Speaker 1: not talking about bringing your budget and all the dead
Speaker 1: dead bodies in your closet to the first date, right, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you have a formula? How do you suggest
Speaker 1: people actually do that? Yeah, well, actually in the book,
Speaker 1: we do have exercises that we have at the end
Speaker 1: of each chapter, and so there is one at the
Speaker 1: end of the dating chapter. And it could be an
Speaker 1: easy way in to be like, hey, I just read
Speaker 1: this book and they have some questions that they suggest
Speaker 1: couples talk about when they're you know, they think they
Speaker 1: want to spend more time together. And that was the
Speaker 1: thing about the timing of this class for me. It was,
Speaker 1: like I said, not the type of converse aations I
Speaker 1: would want to have after you know, a year, let
Speaker 1: alone like one or two dates. But because we were
Speaker 1: forced to have these conversations as part of the class,
Speaker 1: we were really well served by it. So I would say,
Speaker 1: before it feels comfortable, and so your definition of comfortable
Speaker 1: might be like after three dates. Um, you know, if
Speaker 1: you know you want to spend more time with this person,
Speaker 1: it's better to get these questions on the table. The
Speaker 1: diving board is not going to get any lower. It's
Speaker 1: always going to be scary to have these conversations, and
Speaker 1: so better to find out early that the person that
Speaker 1: you are interested in grew up moving every few months
Speaker 1: because their parents couldn't pay their rent and and and
Speaker 1: so that's actually going to influence some of the decisions
Speaker 1: you make together. And so, you know, trust is such
Speaker 1: an important part of relationships. Um, in order to communicate
Speaker 1: well with each other, you have to trust each other.
Speaker 1: And so we we believe that these questions can actually
Speaker 1: help build trust and that can lead to more success
Speaker 1: over time. Yeah, I mean you kind of talked about timeline, right,
Speaker 1: so oftentimes it might be sooner, it might be before
Speaker 1: you actually feel comfortable. Um, you know, you might be
Speaker 1: having these conversations earlier on. And as far as the
Speaker 1: actual topics you mentioned, you and your husband, you'll you'll
Speaker 1: talk a decent bit about debt. What other sort of
Speaker 1: topics do you think couples should kind of delve into
Speaker 1: when it comes to some of these some of these questions, Yeah,
Speaker 1: some of these ways that money is going to impact
Speaker 1: a relationship like that. Yeah, so we certainly your approach
Speaker 1: to combining your money, right, So, there are i'd say
Speaker 1: three options. You can pool everything, you can pull some
Speaker 1: things or you can keep entirely separate accounts and UM
Speaker 1: those You know, people are very influenced by what they
Speaker 1: see their parents do, maybe what they're seeing their friends do.
Speaker 1: Especially if you're making different amounts of money, it's important
Speaker 1: to get on the same page about you. How are
Speaker 1: you going to approach your your financial combination UM formula
Speaker 1: and what might that look like over time? And so
Speaker 1: Ross and I had approach that was we at the beginning,
Speaker 1: before we were engaged, we had a certain percentage of
Speaker 1: our salaries because I was working for a nonprofit he
Speaker 1: was working for a hedge funds who were making wildly
Speaker 1: different amounts. That first year after business school, we contributed
Speaker 1: the same percentage of our salaries into a shared at
Speaker 1: pool that we then used to pay rent, groceries, things
Speaker 1: like that. And then we actually increase that percentage over time,
Speaker 1: right we when we got engaged, we bumped it up
Speaker 1: a bit more. When we got married, bumped it up more.
Speaker 1: And then we had kids and we're like, okay, there's
Speaker 1: no like. I mean, we do have a very small
Speaker 1: separate account that we used to pay for gifts for
Speaker 1: each other or if I go on a girls weekend, UM,
Speaker 1: just because we don't, you know, want to have to
Speaker 1: check with each other about everything, and we don't anymore,
Speaker 1: but in those early years we did. We said, like
Speaker 1: over a hundred dollars um, we will check with each
Speaker 1: other before we spend it, and and that really helped
Speaker 1: us again build that financial trust that you know. Now
Speaker 1: you know we we don't check in on those things,
Speaker 1: but it's important early on to layout what might your
Speaker 1: approach be? Very cool? Yeah, I like that yelled at
Speaker 1: percentages because it's like, well we got this them aout
Speaker 1: a buying even though the dollar amount looks different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, and that can hold up when people make
Speaker 1: radically different amounts for sure. Yeah. You talk about pre
Speaker 1: nups to you get into that authority question, and I
Speaker 1: know it can be an emotionally charged topic. How how
Speaker 1: do you think couples should discuss whether or not they
Speaker 1: should go that route, because sometimes even just putting the
Speaker 1: prenup concept on the table can cause hurt feelings. It's true,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very charged issue. But actually prenups
Speaker 1: are on the rise. And you know, millennials who have
Speaker 1: seen uh their parents get divorced, they are delaying, you know,
Speaker 1: waiting longer to get married, So there have more assets
Speaker 1: that have accumulated than maybe their parents did. UM. More
Speaker 1: and more are actually going the prenup route. What we
Speaker 1: think can be really valuable is doing all the steps
Speaker 1: that you would take to create a prenup, but stopping
Speaker 1: short of creating the document itself. And so that same
Speaker 1: level of UM disclosure, that same talking about UM what's
Speaker 1: important to me, can accomplish this same thing as the
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't accomplish it legally, but it forces you to
Speaker 1: have the same conversations, which we think are just good conversations.
Speaker 1: It's just good hygiene. UM. And then you know, actually,
Speaker 1: my co author, with her second husband, hired one attorney
Speaker 1: to create a prenup and the attorney said, but wait
Speaker 1: a minute, this is usually not how it works. You
Speaker 1: you have your attorney and my then your husband has
Speaker 1: his attorney. And they said, no, we know. We we
Speaker 1: just were approaching this together and the relationship is the client,
Speaker 1: which I thought was a really interesting approach. Yeah, usually
Speaker 1: the lawyer's fight to the death, and you know, you
Speaker 1: see what shakes out in the end, then it already
Speaker 1: feels like a battle at that point. So the ability
Speaker 1: for you to come in together. I think that is
Speaker 1: so important, Abby, and like it kind of takes me
Speaker 1: back to just what you're talking about. Wh it comes
Speaker 1: to communicating about your finances, like your five c's knowing
Speaker 1: what it is that you want. How that is so important,
Speaker 1: And like you said, going through the motions, going through
Speaker 1: the steps can help you to just to communicate and
Speaker 1: to kind of get on the same age without even
Speaker 1: technically creating a prenup. I think that's that can be
Speaker 1: incredibly valuable. All Right, So let's say you you're dating,
Speaker 1: you have the prenup, you get married, and then kids
Speaker 1: are on the table. That's another question that you tackle
Speaker 1: in this book, which is I think it's amazing like
Speaker 1: to to actually have some concrete ways to help people
Speaker 1: walk through a big old life decision like this is
Speaker 1: really helpful. But uh, it can also be a really
Speaker 1: difficult financial decision. When you look at the stats, something
Speaker 1: what like three thousand dollars is what it's predicted to
Speaker 1: cost to raise a kid from the age of zero
Speaker 1: to eighteen. So it's it's not just like, hey, this
Speaker 1: is going to change our lives. It's like, hey, this
Speaker 1: might change our whole financial trajectory as well. So how
Speaker 1: do you suggest couples discuss that major topic? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's so material, um, but it is something that I mean,
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't know even though I took the class,
Speaker 1: Like what what would the cost that the money costs be? Um?
Speaker 1: I mean I'm sure it was covered in the class,
Speaker 1: but I didn't like pay attention because that was so
Speaker 1: far um in the future for me, right, Like I
Speaker 1: was just trying to decide if this guy that I
Speaker 1: was dating was the one who was going to end
Speaker 1: up with and so, UM. What I love about the
Speaker 1: way that you know we wrote this is that, like
Speaker 1: that's a separate chapter. So if you're not ready to
Speaker 1: even go there yet, like just you know, don't don't
Speaker 1: look at it. But when you're ready, then yes, you
Speaker 1: can kind of go in with your eyes wide open
Speaker 1: because it's three dollars through through eighteen and then you
Speaker 1: know another two hundred for college. Right, so you're looking
Speaker 1: at half a million dollars to raise, um, and send
Speaker 1: a kid one kid to college. Um. I think you know,
Speaker 1: the the other important costs that you need to think
Speaker 1: about is time, right, because the money is one thing.
Speaker 1: But I'm sure you know, you're both parents. Um, it
Speaker 1: is tremendously time intensive, especially today given the expectations of
Speaker 1: what parents are involved with with their kids to raise
Speaker 1: a kid, and so before you you know, make those decisions,
Speaker 1: it's it's talking through how do we anticipate spending our time? Right?
Speaker 1: Do you want to continue your career? How do you
Speaker 1: feel about that? You know? How about you know the
Speaker 1: other person in the relationship? Right, It's it's I think
Speaker 1: we are living in a time where the percentage of
Speaker 1: couples who have two careers is higher than ever. It's
Speaker 1: it's increased, you know, so significantly over the last you know, um,
Speaker 1: several decades. And there was a little blip in COVID,
Speaker 1: but you know, I think we're mostly back and so UM,
Speaker 1: I think it's important for people to be thinking about
Speaker 1: how they want having a child to affect or not
Speaker 1: their ability to pursue a career. And then that means childcare, right, Um,
Speaker 1: so who is going to care for that child? Um?
Speaker 1: While if we're both pursuing careers, what type of childcare
Speaker 1: do we want? Can we afford it? Um? Is it
Speaker 1: available where we live? Um? Is it high quality? And
Speaker 1: so all of these things are important to go in
Speaker 1: with your eyes wide open about um. If you if
Speaker 1: you assume that, oh, you know, my parents are just
Speaker 1: going to take care of our kids when we have one.
Speaker 1: Have you talked to your parents about whether that's something
Speaker 1: they want to do? Sometimes grandparents are like, no, I
Speaker 1: did that. This is your turn. I just want to
Speaker 1: play with them on the weekends. Right, you might need
Speaker 1: to figure that one on. Sorry about that, right? So
Speaker 1: that's the communicate stuff, right, and make sure you talk
Speaker 1: to the people involved. Yeah, I mean I like that
Speaker 1: you brought up choldcare because it is so incredibly expensive
Speaker 1: and I mean families today, like especially ones with with
Speaker 1: two or more kids, they just have you know, more
Speaker 1: difficult decisions ahead, uh to make on that front. So
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have specific tips for folks like
Speaker 1: as they're trying to determine, like, all right, are we
Speaker 1: going to pursue the career? Are we gonna pay for childcare?
Speaker 1: How do you recommend for folks to talk through that
Speaker 1: difficult decision? Yeah, well we have another exercise about it.
Speaker 1: And this is the thing, right, it's it's UM can
Speaker 1: feel a little bit like you're in school again going
Speaker 1: through and like working on a worksheet. But I mean,
Speaker 1: at least for me, it's helpful to have that intentionality
Speaker 1: because I mean, once you have the kid, like, you know,
Speaker 1: you aren't thinking very clearheadedly in those first two months,
Speaker 1: right as you're like trying to you know, up at
Speaker 1: all hours. And so for a few years, Okay, I'll
Speaker 1: go long, fair fair. I mean my oldest I did
Speaker 1: not um. But uh, you know, we actually did have
Speaker 1: some help with our kids overnight because we knew. I
Speaker 1: knew I do not do well on sleep. And so
Speaker 1: this is the thing about clarifying what's important or I
Speaker 1: did not do well on no sleep. I do very
Speaker 1: well on sleep. Uh. And that's the thing about the
Speaker 1: clarify step, right, it's just like knowing what's important to you.
Speaker 1: I I knew from like just the history of being
Speaker 1: me that if I don't sleep, I am a disaster.
Speaker 1: And so like that was a way that we chose
Speaker 1: to spend some money. Actually it was a gift, a
Speaker 1: financial gift from our parents, who weren't able to be
Speaker 1: helpful for various reasons, but they actually paid help to
Speaker 1: pay for someone to be in our home and take
Speaker 1: care of our kids, um overnight for some nights a
Speaker 1: week because it was so important to to us to
Speaker 1: have that kind of help and we couldn't get it
Speaker 1: through family. So um, but yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: having the ability to zoom out before you're in the
Speaker 1: thick of it, clarify what's important to you, community ate
Speaker 1: with each other about, you know, your career, aspirations, your
Speaker 1: other things that are important for you to accomplish alongside
Speaker 1: having children can really set you up well for then
Speaker 1: when you're in the thick of it and you you know,
Speaker 1: so sort of like building that foundation, right, if you've
Speaker 1: built your house on a solid history of being able
Speaker 1: to communicate about tricky topics, then what you're you know,
Speaker 1: kind of building the upper floors. Once you have maybe
Speaker 1: one two, I know you have more than that kids,
Speaker 1: then then you know it's it's even if the wind
Speaker 1: is blowing and the house is swaying, like it's it's
Speaker 1: on solid ground. Yeah. I like that. You also you
Speaker 1: document the rise of Dad's staying at home in the book,
Speaker 1: which he's so true. I'm the traditional fifty eras model
Speaker 1: fortunately is no longer the norm in our society. How
Speaker 1: do you encourage folks to think about gender roles when
Speaker 1: it comes to work, family, and chores, as those gender
Speaker 1: roles are changing, like it, it makes some of those
Speaker 1: discussions based on how you're raised, based on what you
Speaker 1: saw growing up, based on kind of expectations that you have.
Speaker 1: Because of that, it can make some of those conversations
Speaker 1: a little more difficult, right, absolutely, Yeah, I think, Um,
Speaker 1: the stats are pre COVID, but it's a little less
Speaker 1: than of dad's are staying at home and people are
Speaker 1: trading off over time, right, I think that that is
Speaker 1: uh an interesting phenomenon and actually, you know, really gives
Speaker 1: people flexibility to not feel like they're locked into one
Speaker 1: role over time. Right, Like I am always going to
Speaker 1: be the breadwinner no matter how much I hate my job,
Speaker 1: I have to stay in it because I'm the one
Speaker 1: who brings home a salary. I mean that that is
Speaker 1: very freeing to both people. UM, in a relationship, if
Speaker 1: you are clear on what people want and not to
Speaker 1: make assumptions based on generals. I mean, there's so much
Speaker 1: research that same sex couples actually have more equitable distribution
Speaker 1: of labor because they have to talk about it, because
Speaker 1: they can't default to what a society think, you know,
Speaker 1: I should do based on my agenda, and so we
Speaker 1: certainly think that you know, dividing household chores, childcare responsibilities
Speaker 1: are is, you know, same approach as everything else. Right,
Speaker 1: be intentional, UM, clarify what's important, to clarify what parts
Speaker 1: of UM, what parts you hate doing UM, and make
Speaker 1: sure that you're you know, you're you're talking about what
Speaker 1: each person will do and what you will outsource. And
Speaker 1: you know that outsource piece comes with the financial implication, right,
Speaker 1: so so how do you you know budget for that?
Speaker 1: And that's UM. And I remember actually in Myra's class,
Speaker 1: we had an exercise where we had to get with
Speaker 1: a pretend partner. I did not actually work with Ross
Speaker 1: for this, but we uh, you had to say like, okay,
Speaker 1: here are all the things involved in running a house
Speaker 1: and having kids, like what is PERSONET going to do?
Speaker 1: What does person be going to do? And what are
Speaker 1: you going to outsource? And you've got assigned different salaries
Speaker 1: and you had to observe like where the power dynamics
Speaker 1: fell based on you know, those salaries and and through
Speaker 1: that you know, negotiation exercise. It was fascinating. No, that's good.
Speaker 1: It makes me think of like I've always sworn that
Speaker 1: at no time in my adult life will like break
Speaker 1: leaves because I was so scarred by all the leaves
Speaker 1: I had to rake as a child. That's that's why
Speaker 1: you have kids. I know, yeah, but it's they're yeah,
Speaker 1: they're getting there there, but it's it's one of tho
Speaker 1: things where I have outdoor sat and I know it's
Speaker 1: not the most frugal choice, but it's one of those
Speaker 1: things where like for me, it's worth the money. And
Speaker 1: that's something we had to talk through. Similar to getting
Speaker 1: our house clean once a month, We're like, Okay, we
Speaker 1: kind of want to do it more, but no, we're
Speaker 1: gonna stick to once a month. But at least that
Speaker 1: gives us like a baseline cleaning once a month, and
Speaker 1: we're willing to pay for that. But those are conversations
Speaker 1: that we had to have, like do we feel comfortable
Speaker 1: spending the money? How important is this to us? I also,
Speaker 1: I love that thing that you said about It can
Speaker 1: go back and forth, like in the beginning days of
Speaker 1: building this business, my wife took on more responsibility. And
Speaker 1: now my wife she's in grad school and she's gonna
Speaker 1: start going into her career and I'm I'm going to
Speaker 1: take on more responsibility at home for a time, and
Speaker 1: so I think knowing that it can be a pendulum
Speaker 1: that's swinging and not just like hey, you just have
Speaker 1: to eat it and sacrifice what you want for the
Speaker 1: greater good of our family or for us financially. That's
Speaker 1: a really helpful way to think about it. Um, Abby,
Speaker 1: we have a couple more questions we want to get to.
Speaker 1: We want to talk about how to choose where to
Speaker 1: live in steely enough there's like a personality component to that,
Speaker 1: and then careers, how you think through career stuff. We
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about both of those things. Will get
Speaker 1: to that right after this. All right, we are back
Speaker 1: from the break talking through a guide for life's biggest
Speaker 1: decisions with Abby Davison uh Abbey. Before we we talk
Speaker 1: about careers, we're gonna talk about geography, because I mean,
Speaker 1: where we choose to live like that's another decision that
Speaker 1: affects our entire lives. We know that very well because
Speaker 1: we actually we moved our our families earlier this year.
Speaker 1: Those are difficult decisions with a bunch of factors to consider.
Speaker 1: But how do you recommend folks sort through just the money,
Speaker 1: the relational that the lifestyle factors when it comes to
Speaker 1: choosing a place to put down roots. Well, it's so
Speaker 1: interesting because when we were researching this book, we surveyed
Speaker 1: hundreds of people. We send out a survey to lots
Speaker 1: of folks, and where to when to move and where
Speaker 1: to live was the number one topic that people wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about on the survey. And I think it's
Speaker 1: because that, um, well, part of it was we sent
Speaker 1: it out during COVID, so people were in their homes
Speaker 1: more than ever before. It gave us a lot more
Speaker 1: of an imagination to think about changing where we live,
Speaker 1: Like I hate this place. Yes, so no matter how
Speaker 1: much space you had, it was not enough. Um But
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it really did give us a
Speaker 1: moment to kind of step back and say, like, hey,
Speaker 1: what's important to me? And people talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: some of the ways that they had made the decisions
Speaker 1: before being about where the job prospects were the best
Speaker 1: for their particular career. Suddenly, when remote work opened things up,
Speaker 1: people had an opportunity to reassess and say, actually, it's
Speaker 1: important to be close to my family or you know,
Speaker 1: we saw a lot of people actually comment on how
Speaker 1: issues of identity factored into their decisions, right, Um, maybe
Speaker 1: they're in a mixed race couple and in certain places
Speaker 1: they you know, they didn't want their kid to have
Speaker 1: like an eyebrow raised and people let's say like no,
Speaker 1: but what are you right, And so they wanted to
Speaker 1: be in a place with lots of mixed race couples
Speaker 1: and so, UM, the vibe, if you will, of a
Speaker 1: place is is very important, you know, in addition to
Speaker 1: all of those the financial and the career and the
Speaker 1: you know, the family pieces. UM. I think there's an
Speaker 1: interesting book that we read as part of the research
Speaker 1: by Richard Florida that talks about the personality traits of
Speaker 1: different parts of the United States and how um they've
Speaker 1: done surveys and they discovered that traits like neuroticism, UM
Speaker 1: are concentrated in the New York metro area and the
Speaker 1: Midwestern Heartland, and and traits like agreeableness and conscientiousness is
Speaker 1: like the Big five personality types they call it, are
Speaker 1: concentrated in the Eastern sun Belt. So there could be
Speaker 1: you know, places that have a dominant personality if you will,
Speaker 1: that that might be a good fit for you based
Speaker 1: on your specific personality traits, which I think is fascinating.
Speaker 1: I thought that was fascinating too. That was the most
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting parts that I picked up on,
Speaker 1: And I was like, makes sense that I'm in the
Speaker 1: sunbelt now, kind of agreeable? Yeah, I think so well,
Speaker 1: And so yeah, that was really interesting, And I think
Speaker 1: that's a good point, like when it comes to those
Speaker 1: external factors of what you're looking for, but then there's
Speaker 1: also a money aspect too, because if you're like I
Speaker 1: really want to live in a high rise condo in
Speaker 1: a downtown city it's like a major metropolitan area specifically,
Speaker 1: if you want to live in a place like New
Speaker 1: York City or San Francisco, that comes with significant money
Speaker 1: trade off. So the vibe might be exactly what you're
Speaker 1: looking for, but the reality is on the money front,
Speaker 1: you might not be able to afford it. So those
Speaker 1: are really difficult topics to cover as well, because the
Speaker 1: money can vary so wildly between places that you might
Speaker 1: want to live. If you want to live in you know,
Speaker 1: even a downtown Birmingham, right, that's going to be a
Speaker 1: very different money commitment than living in New York City. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And I think along with those conversations and you know,
Speaker 1: the career impact conversations are important to have to write.
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of effort and commitment to make
Speaker 1: sure that you know, if if both people in a
Speaker 1: relationship want to advance their careers, that to make sure
Speaker 1: a move isn't going to hurt someone's career, right. So
Speaker 1: UM kind of like a hippocratic oath, if you will,
Speaker 1: for people couples moving to say like, first, do no harm. UM.
Speaker 1: It's it's certainly important to go in UM intentionally with
Speaker 1: career moves because if you're you know, and I think
Speaker 1: lots of professions, you don't have a whole lot of control.
Speaker 1: I think of UM academics, I think of you know,
Speaker 1: doctors that get matched to certain residency programs, right. But
Speaker 1: but having those conversations before you go through that matching
Speaker 1: process or before you apply to certain universities for tenure
Speaker 1: track positions, UM, just to get on the same page
Speaker 1: about what you're both hoping for over the long term
Speaker 1: career wise, financially, UM. Kind of the other pieces of
Speaker 1: the picture that are important to you. I mean, when
Speaker 1: Ross and I were deciding where to move after grad school,
Speaker 1: we based on the industries that we were pursuing new
Speaker 1: York City would have been a top place for us
Speaker 1: to look, right. He was interested in in finance, and
Speaker 1: I was interested in social innovation and impact, and I
Speaker 1: knew there would be amazing career prospects for us in
Speaker 1: New York City. But I also knew because I lived
Speaker 1: there before grad school, that people work all the time,
Speaker 1: and so you know I, I said. We we had
Speaker 1: a conversation about it, and we said, yeah, we'd have
Speaker 1: amazing jobs, we'd never see each other, and so we
Speaker 1: actually crossed New York City off the list because we
Speaker 1: valued all the things outside of our jobs in addition to,
Speaker 1: you know, our career ambitions and so a lot different
Speaker 1: in New York City. Exactly. Well, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1: It was something that's one of our top things that
Speaker 1: we love to do. She didn't want those neurotic vibes, Like, well,
Speaker 1: I grew up with the neurotic vibe, so I take
Speaker 1: them with me, but it's better if I don't have
Speaker 1: them all around me. Considering that your specific location. When
Speaker 1: when it's you by yourself, you can make oftentimes the
Speaker 1: it's an easier decision, but certainly when you bring somebody
Speaker 1: else into the mix, that is a conversation that's worth having.
Speaker 1: And you know, like, like, how do you encourage folks
Speaker 1: then to to kind of find the balance between finding
Speaker 1: fulfilling work that they're passionate about and then at the
Speaker 1: same time, like you got folks who are looking to
Speaker 1: pursue a career that might allow them to achieve their
Speaker 1: financial goals. Like there it seems like oftentimes those two
Speaker 1: things are sort of that odds with with each other.
Speaker 1: And so how do you recommend for folks to kind
Speaker 1: of reconcile those two things. Yeah, well, I go back
Speaker 1: to the five c's right, Um, what's important to you?
Speaker 1: Is it important to make it as much as possible,
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. Is it important that you have
Speaker 1: a career that gives you the flexibility to kind of
Speaker 1: have periods of intensity, but then also be able to
Speaker 1: like go see your kids school play, um, and not
Speaker 1: feel like you're chained to you know, your email all
Speaker 1: the time. So I think once you, once you have
Speaker 1: that clarity, you can then have those conversations too, because
Speaker 1: it's all about tradeoffs. It's not we can't we can't
Speaker 1: do everything, and so being able to say okay, I'm
Speaker 1: okay with driving a ten year old car. I'm okay with,
Speaker 1: you know, living in a house that's not you know,
Speaker 1: hasn't doesn't have the fanciest new kitchen. Right. I don't
Speaker 1: need you know, fancy brands. What I do want is
Speaker 1: to be able to take three amazing vacations every year. Right.
Speaker 1: And so I guess having that the ability to get
Speaker 1: so clear, you know, specifically financially on what financial freedom,
Speaker 1: if you will, means to you, and then you know,
Speaker 1: how do yeah, and then how do you craft your
Speaker 1: your life and career around that, not be a slave
Speaker 1: to kind of what what someone else told you was,
Speaker 1: you know, a prestigious career. I mean, that's what's so
Speaker 1: tricky about so many people who are achievement oriented, right,
Speaker 1: and go through, um, checking off boxes for so many years,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they get out and
Speaker 1: they're like, wait a minute, I've checked all these boxes
Speaker 1: off and I'm miserable. Um. Yeah, So so not allowing
Speaker 1: other people's ambitions to get on your life list, um,
Speaker 1: And that just takes a lot to discipline and a
Speaker 1: lot of self awareness to be able to sort those
Speaker 1: things out. Yeah, and you said checking boxes, it's it's
Speaker 1: almost like it's a worksheet and like everybody is doing
Speaker 1: the same things, and truly what it does, like me,
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here is like being creative. It
Speaker 1: takes pausing and thinking and being creative and imagining and
Speaker 1: sort of uh like casting a vision of what what
Speaker 1: you want your life to look like. That is knowing
Speaker 1: yourself right, knowing what you want and not just falling
Speaker 1: blindly what everyone else wants. And I think, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess last question for you here, Abby, Like I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of what's being sold to us when
Speaker 1: it comes career wise, He says, it's like your career
Speaker 1: should be incredibly fulfilling, should be deeply meaningful to you.
Speaker 1: And the reality is are a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are incredibly happy folks who don't have that relationship to
Speaker 1: their job. So do you feel like that's oversold and
Speaker 1: that maybe we should learn to divorce meaning from the
Speaker 1: work that we do a little bit more. If we're
Speaker 1: able to, like you said, be untethered from our email.
Speaker 1: If he gives us copious amounts of free time to
Speaker 1: do things that we actually love, how should we think
Speaker 1: about that dichotomy? Yeah, I mean I absolutely think that
Speaker 1: um My father in law says like it's a job.
Speaker 1: That's why they call it work, right, It's not supposed
Speaker 1: to fulfill everything. But I think, you know, my generation
Speaker 1: was certainly told that your job, you know, your career
Speaker 1: should be everything to you. And um, you should find
Speaker 1: something that you know gives you passion and meaning. And
Speaker 1: I certainly think passion and meaning are critical, but I
Speaker 1: think there are places to get them other than you know,
Speaker 1: your your job, and so um, I think zooming out
Speaker 1: and and not just allowing your job and what you
Speaker 1: do for pay to to have so much weight put
Speaker 1: on it can be very freeing and and um, and
Speaker 1: I think having you know, certainly in this in this
Speaker 1: day and age, as we're hearing about layoffs, and we're
Speaker 1: hearing I mean, we've been through so many trends, right,
Speaker 1: We've had the great resignation and then we had quiet
Speaker 1: quitting an hour into layoffs. And I think, you know, really,
Speaker 1: despite whatever we call it, I think people are looking
Speaker 1: for more purpose and meaning in their lives. And so
Speaker 1: hopefully there is a component your job that gives that
Speaker 1: to you. But knowing what those other big rocks are,
Speaker 1: if you will in your life that you want to
Speaker 1: make sure you have room for um is as you know,
Speaker 1: it's even more important so that then you can um
Speaker 1: shape your life around those big rocks and not assume
Speaker 1: any one of them is going to be your be
Speaker 1: all and end all. Right, I mean, I I adore
Speaker 1: my husband. He is not going to fulfill every single
Speaker 1: need I have, right, I mean it's just like that,
Speaker 1: right for a job, It's like it's not fantastic. Um,
Speaker 1: I adore him and when I want and heat, but
Speaker 1: he's an introvert, right, And so like we recharge our
Speaker 1: ballot batteries really differently. When I want like a great
Speaker 1: gossip session and a good conversation, I'm going to go
Speaker 1: have a drink with a girlfriend And that's totally fine.
Speaker 1: So it's the same thing with your job. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know what you're going to get out of it,
Speaker 1: be eyes wide open about that. But then make sure
Speaker 1: that there are other elements in your world, in your
Speaker 1: life that are going to meet those other needs that
Speaker 1: you have. I love it. I love the framework that
Speaker 1: y'all have presented here in your book, Money and Love.
Speaker 1: It's going to be available next month in January. But
Speaker 1: working folks learn more about what y'all are up to
Speaker 1: and specifically, I guess to where to purchase that book. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So we have a website, Money Love Book dot com
Speaker 1: that has links to places to purchase it, including where
Speaker 1: people can get signed copies if they wanted. It has
Speaker 1: a fun quiz on um that can help people learn
Speaker 1: more about their money and love decision making type, and
Speaker 1: all of our social media channels are on there too.
Speaker 1: Great way to combine money and relationship advice, which is
Speaker 1: tough to do, but you guys, I feel like pulled
Speaker 1: it off really well in this book. So, Abby, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. It was really fun.
Speaker 1: All right, man, that was a super fun conversation with
Speaker 1: it was Abby Davidson. I feel like just a way
Speaker 1: to kind of think through the biggest life decisions that
Speaker 1: you have, and they often involve both those things love
Speaker 1: and money, right, and they feel sometimes at odds. So
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess my first question for you is,
Speaker 1: as always, like, what was your big takeaway from this combo?
Speaker 1: My big takeaway well, and one of the things she
Speaker 1: said is that these two things aren't at odds. Oftentimes
Speaker 1: we have too there's elements of both that we need
Speaker 1: to tap when it comes to any decision that that
Speaker 1: we're making. Uh, we can't just completely turn on robotic
Speaker 1: rational mats when it comes to business decisions and then
Speaker 1: only save emotional, you know, decisions for like the family
Speaker 1: or things that you know that I'm personally interested in
Speaker 1: from like a emotional like love standpoint, when it, I
Speaker 1: guess comes to relationship, I enjoy the work I do.
Speaker 1: I don't want to make it sound like that, why
Speaker 1: do you hate me? Man? That the work we do
Speaker 1: is only its business only? But yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of different aspects that we need to take into account
Speaker 1: well as we're making these big decisions. But my big
Speaker 1: takeaway came, I guess maybe kind of early on in
Speaker 1: the conversation and Abby mentioned how hard And I mentioned
Speaker 1: this at the time because it stood out to me,
Speaker 1: But Abby heard her, hasn't They go on these hikes
Speaker 1: and they have some of these bigger, harrier conversations while
Speaker 1: they are on their hikes. And I loved her too
Speaker 1: about letting the kids run up ahead, because there, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's times when it's just like, all right, the
Speaker 1: kids don't need to hear us talking about this particular topic,
Speaker 1: but I really like how it allows you both And
Speaker 1: she kind of was talking about this as well, like
Speaker 1: she's like imagining, imagine both of you on the same
Speaker 1: side of the table and you're working against sort of
Speaker 1: like the problem, whatever the problem is. We're both looking
Speaker 1: at it as opposed to looking at each other. And
Speaker 1: you kind of do that when you are doing an activity,
Speaker 1: when you're participating in something, when you're hiking, you're both
Speaker 1: hiking alongside each other, uh, and you're able to have
Speaker 1: that conversation that way. And plus it just makes it
Speaker 1: so much more fun. Right, Like we we talked about
Speaker 1: couples going on like money dates. It's like, okay, don't
Speaker 1: make your budget meeting. This like face to face conference
Speaker 1: room like spreadsheets, printingdal like pencil sharpened sort of events.
Speaker 1: It's like man like crack open a bottle of wine,
Speaker 1: go to a brewery, sit down, talk about money in
Speaker 1: that kind of environment. And and that's why, you know,
Speaker 1: we think that us going to lead to much more
Speaker 1: successful conversations as opposed to the nose and knows we're
Speaker 1: gonna duke this thing out right, Yeah, what about you?
Speaker 1: What was your big dick away. I think towards the
Speaker 1: end of the conversation actually which she said, it's all
Speaker 1: about trade offs, and it made me think of this
Speaker 1: Toma soul quote, who is my favorite economist. He said,
Speaker 1: there are no solutions, only trade offs, and that is
Speaker 1: the reality of human life, is that so much of
Speaker 1: the time there is no right way. It's to choose
Speaker 1: your own adventure book. And so you are talking about tradeoffs.
Speaker 1: No matter which direction you go in. Living in New
Speaker 1: York City might be the time of your life. It
Speaker 1: might be worth also from from a career, sah all
Speaker 1: the money and the connections and the fund that you have,
Speaker 1: but you also might realize, wait a second, that training
Speaker 1: my bank account, and you know what, I don't like
Speaker 1: being surrounded by a ton of neurotic people. So it's
Speaker 1: it's not the best choice for me. But there are
Speaker 1: these are trade offs, and so especially when you're having
Speaker 1: this conversation with a significant other, even if you're not
Speaker 1: in a relationship, that's totally fine. Even making this decision individually,
Speaker 1: there are going to be trade offs with every decision.
Speaker 1: You might have to move further from family, or you
Speaker 1: might opt for a career that's more fulfilling but pays
Speaker 1: less money. Uh, And yeah, finance has come into play
Speaker 1: with all of these decisions. But I guess just to say,
Speaker 1: there is no perfect and you're just you're hopefully trying
Speaker 1: to find the best solution for you, and that involve
Speaker 1: saying no to something good in hopes that something better
Speaker 1: comes along in the future. I love how Abby talked
Speaker 1: in the beginning about how these five sees how this
Speaker 1: intentional process it's not always going to land you in
Speaker 1: the best possible outcome, but at least you can point
Speaker 1: back and say, hey, I went through a lot of
Speaker 1: work to come to this decision, and I can feel
Speaker 1: secure and happy knowing that I did the work to
Speaker 1: arrive here. It's it's doing the due diligence, basically, And
Speaker 1: we don't want the whim exactly. You don't want to
Speaker 1: at the end of the day to realize, well, I
Speaker 1: don't even know how we really got here, and you
Speaker 1: don't want to just leave it a chance as to
Speaker 1: whether or not it's a good outcome. Hopefully you've done
Speaker 1: and put in all of the work possible in order
Speaker 1: to achieve what hopefully is a good result, but it
Speaker 1: may out always be a good result, and I want
Speaker 1: to say it too. Sometimes it can be something kind
Speaker 1: of off the wall, but still take that possibility and
Speaker 1: put it through this framework. Makes me think, three of
Speaker 1: the best months of my life. We're traveling around this
Speaker 1: great country of ours, Matt quitting my job after six
Speaker 1: months and just spending time getting to know the landscape
Speaker 1: and visiting some great national parks kind of thing. So
Speaker 1: it's you know, that doesn't sound like the best long
Speaker 1: term option, right to make no money and to quit
Speaker 1: a career route that you're embarking on early on, But
Speaker 1: for me, it was well worth it, and I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can still come up with a decision like that,
Speaker 1: but putting it through some sort of framework to make
Speaker 1: sure that, hey, this is really what I want right here,
Speaker 1: right now, and I'm never gonna be able to have
Speaker 1: this opportunity again. It's worth leaving something good for something better,
Speaker 1: and I can always come back and get today job
Speaker 1: later on a bit. But yeah, I think this framework
Speaker 1: is going to be really helpful for people to make
Speaker 1: better decisions when it comes to those biggest uh question
Speaker 1: marks that come along in our lives. Yeah, yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it so much because, like
Speaker 1: as an individual, if if you know a lot, I
Speaker 1: guess a lot of this episode we did talk about relationships,
Speaker 1: but what we're also talking about, like what we're talking
Speaker 1: about right now is the process. And basically, if you
Speaker 1: are making a decision on your own, what we're saying
Speaker 1: is to think about it. But if you're making this
Speaker 1: decision with somebody else, if you have a significant other,
Speaker 1: a partner, what we're saying then is to think about
Speaker 1: it and then talk about it, right, Because I think
Speaker 1: that's one of the other things that Abby said that
Speaker 1: was so good, is that you need to know what
Speaker 1: it is that you want first in order to communicate
Speaker 1: clearly with your partner when it comes to making some
Speaker 1: of these large, big, huge life decisions together. I think
Speaker 1: if we don't take the time to have actually thought
Speaker 1: through what it is that we're looking for, you might
Speaker 1: make a decision as a couple, but then two years
Speaker 1: into it you're like, oh, wait a minute, I don't
Speaker 1: really like this. And of course we can all change
Speaker 1: our minds at some point down the road, but again,
Speaker 1: you want to have done the work, like you said,
Speaker 1: you want to put in that due diligence. For sure,
Speaker 1: all right now, let's get back to the beer that
Speaker 1: we had on this episode. This was Narwhale. It's an
Speaker 1: Imperial Stout by Sierra Nevada version. This is actually, uh
Speaker 1: this this is a beer that we've had on the
Speaker 1: show before, but it's a previous years and so they
Speaker 1: you know, they it changes slightly. So this is the
Speaker 1: one that I was okay us revisioning. This is one
Speaker 1: of my favorite widely available stouts. It's comes into six pack.
Speaker 1: It's Sierra Nevada, which means I think they're distributing all
Speaker 1: fifty states at leastffordable at least most of them, as
Speaker 1: evidenced by the fact that it comes in six packs exactly.
Speaker 1: But this is this is a delicious one, like roasted
Speaker 1: cough fee. It's definitely dark, right, it's black, it's dark
Speaker 1: rosy toast. Yeah. So if you if you like the
Speaker 1: sweeter milk stylets, this probably isn't your jam. But if
Speaker 1: you like kind of bitter coffee not a little more
Speaker 1: a little more smack in the face, yeah, this one
Speaker 1: is going to be for you. I I really like this.
Speaker 1: This is one where I was like, I thought they
Speaker 1: stopped making it, and when I saw this, it put
Speaker 1: us on my face on the shelf. I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: they're still making it, so this is this is a
Speaker 1: really good one. I like it a lot in the
Speaker 1: wall with its crazy tooth on its head. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is more's uh, this is more of like an espresso
Speaker 1: style coffee as opposed to like the milk styles are
Speaker 1: very much more like that fall into that flat white category.
Speaker 1: But if this sounds like something you'd be interested in,
Speaker 1: check it out in our wall. It's an Imperial stout
Speaker 1: that you can find most likely wherever it is that
Speaker 1: you purchase your craft beer and j We forgot to
Speaker 1: mention this at the beginning of the episode, but listeners
Speaker 1: will have a chance of getting a free copy of
Speaker 1: Abby's book, Money and Love. We're gonna give away five copies.
Speaker 1: We're partnering with her publisher, and so what you need
Speaker 1: to do to ensure that you are entered into win
Speaker 1: a copy of Abby's book is just leave us a
Speaker 1: review over at Apple Podcasts or wherever it is that
Speaker 1: you listen to your podcasts and then send us. Just
Speaker 1: send us an email over at how to Money pod
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com, do a screenshot, send us a
Speaker 1: screen name, and by the way, if you've left or
Speaker 1: even just you know, I don't know, Oh you're gonna say,
Speaker 1: just reply to previously emails you when you've entered will
Speaker 1: include you as well, So there's a lot of folks
Speaker 1: who do that. If you're reviewed on day one, you
Speaker 1: still deserve a shout of playing this book. Absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you if you haven't yet left review, please leave
Speaker 1: us a great review in on Spotify, whether it's just
Speaker 1: a star rating or an actual written review on Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: we appreciate it. Yeah, and hopefully yeah, you can win
Speaker 1: a copy of this really fascinating new book. But just
Speaker 1: leave that review by by Thursday at noon and send
Speaker 1: that email over our way so we can get you
Speaker 1: in and we'll announce the winners on Friday's episode on
Speaker 1: the Friday flight. That's right, buddy, all right, Well, that's
Speaker 1: gonna be it for this episode until next time. Best
Speaker 1: Friends Out, Best Friends Out. M