WEBVTT - A Guide for Life’s Biggest Decisions with Abby Davisson #607 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.680 Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.200 Matt and today we're talking a guide for Life's Biggest 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:29.280 Decisions with Abby Davison. That's right at a time, you know, 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:31.480 when we might be experiencing one of the biggest shifts 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:35.199 in work life balance, like maybe since the Industrial Revolution. Um, 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.160 I think it's it's more important than ever to make 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.080 sure that we are making the best possible uh decisions. 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.199 Enter Abby Davidson and her new book that she's co authored, 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.560 Money and Love and Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:51.839 And in the book, Abby she lays out a framework 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.480 to help empower folks to make the best strategic decisions 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.240 without having to sacrifice their careers or their personal lives. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.520 It's the common nation of the rational with the emotional, 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.080 and that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Abby, 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.360 thank you for joining us. I'm delighted to be here. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.560 Thanks for having me, have you were glad to have 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.560 you and glad to get into touch an easy subject. 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.440 This must have been a quick book to write, taken 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.200 no time. Sounds like, you know, it's just one of 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.040 those things that's intuitive, right, just absolutely just back of 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.400 the napkin and a few meals. We're good. Yeah, by 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:24.560 the seat of your pants. With these big old decisions, right, 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.360 the ones that kind of make or break our lives, 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.040 to change us as people. But um, yeah, the first 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.520 question we ask people who come on the on the show, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.720 we want to know what's your craft beer equivalent? What 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.959 do you suppore John while you're saving and investing for 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.800 your future. Well, funny story about that. When I was 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.920 growing up, my parents, who are big savers, you know, 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.680 both born and raised in the Midwest, spent money on 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.640 two things. One was experiences. They I joked that they 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.880 were like millennials without knowing it, so they we'd go 0:01:54.920 --> 0:02:00.080 to restaurants, we'd see Broadway shows, we traveled, and and 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.240 books and my mom was trained as a librarian, and 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.640 I just couldn't get it. I was like, we you know, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.000 we can get these for free, we can go to 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.120 the library. And I just didn't make sense to me 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.359 why we could cook meals at home but we would 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.040 spend money at restaurants. And fast forward now, the two 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.960 things that I splurge on our experiences and books. So 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.079 you know, the apple does not fall far from the tree, 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.040 even if you are a little skeptical when you are younger. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.720 That's funny. Yeah, I feel like that's a response I 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.880 hear all the time from super intelligent folks. Are like, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.760 I spare no expense on books, and I like to read. 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.280 I don't read as much as I would like to, though, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.120 But I'm always amazed though that people don't utilize the 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.079 library as much as they can. I'm using Libby for 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.120 audio books all the time, but I get it, and 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.040 especially if you're like the iPhones, so it's always there. 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:49.919 But if you're the kind of person like your mark 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:51.400 those pages and you like to go back and you're 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:53.600 an avid reader, I mean a book is still well 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.600 worth the price, absolutely, And I have two little kids, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.440 and so it's really fun to see. Actually I have 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.120 books that my mom wrote inscriptions to me in, you know, 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.400 Charlotte's Web when we read it together, And now I 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.160 get to read that to my kids and they see, 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.160 you know, the note that their grandma wrote in. So 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:11.640 I love that we we do something similar with with 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.480 every I guess of the more serious books that we read, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.920 we always try to write our name and the date 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:18.800 on there as well. Same things sort of Joel like, like 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.399 like you and I do with our board games. Whoever, 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.239 it's a record of who who is one recently, it's 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.480 a record of who has held that copy and read it. 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:28.760 But I love that Abby. So speaking of of your book, 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.079 let's kind of like dive into money and love. What 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.760 was the impetus behind the book? Why did you and 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.200 your co author write it? Yeah? Well, I when I 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.600 was in my early to mid twenties, I really struggled 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.280 with how to make big life decisions. And you know, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.680 like everyone, you know, you're making them a lot in 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.600 that stage. Right, Should I move to a new city 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:51.520 even if I don't have a job there, just because 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.720 I want to live there? Um, when I do get 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.800 a job, offer multiple offers if I'm lucky, you know 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.400 which one should I take? Is this person that I'm 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.080 dating the on? Um? Should I turn down a full 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.720 scholarship to one grade school to go to maybe your other? 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.200 Your top choice? And so these are all decisions I faced, 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.520 and but I just I didn't feel great about how 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.880 I was making them. It didn't stop me from making decisions, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.240 but I just felt uncertain about my approach. And then 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.560 when I was in graduate school, I took a class 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.480 taught by my co author, Mirah Strober, and suddenly I 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:29.599 realized why this was so hard, and I you know 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.400 why I was going around about my decision making all wrong, 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.920 And it's because the conventional wisdom is that if you 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.760 have a money decision to make, think about it with 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.080 your head, look at the four one k off or 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.200 for the job, think about the salary, the career progression, 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.279 and if that front, yeah, And if you have a 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.080 relationship decision to make, you know, just follow your heart. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.719 You know, how does that person make you feel? But 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.920 you know, in reality, money and love decisions are completely intertwined, 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.480 and if your process doesn't take this reality into account, 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:03.600 you're going to miss a critical part of the picture. 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.480 And so I took Myra's class and just this light 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.679 bulb went off, and I happened to be dating someone 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.200 at the time who was also in the class. We 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.640 had met at graduate school. We've been dating for about 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.279 a year, and we were in our second year, so 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:18.240 we were about to graduate, and we need to make 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.560 decisions like should we look for jobs and in the 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.680 same city, and if we end up in the same city, 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.839 should we move in together? And because of Myra's class, 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.200 we were forced into some really uncomfortable conversations that we 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.479 didn't feel ready to make um or feel ready for, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.360 but it turned out to be so critical to building 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.839 the foundation of relationship. And we're fast forward today. We 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.480 have been married thirteen years, we have two kids, We've 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.919 navigated lots of job changes, and so we wrote the 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.680 book so that others would have access to the same information. 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:49.640 We didn't want it to be the best kept secret 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.880 of Stanford Business School. Yeah, no, I like that bringing 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:54.880 that to the masses. And it sounds like that class 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.560 was helpful to getting you both on the same page 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.160 with kind of so the ways you think about some 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:02.240 of these complex decisions. And one of the things you 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:03.799 mentioned that what you say, a big part of making 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.880 better decisions in this arena is to not make decisions 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.680 too hastily, right, So is part of the problem sometimes 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.240 that we're just we're rushing things absolutely. I mean, we 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:17.159 as humans do not like uncertainty, and so when we're 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:23.000 weighing multiple options, you're actually sitting in uncertainty or you're 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.240 kind of in this pause, and so our tendency, it's 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.360 human nature, is to just get to the other side 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.400 of the decision, like just just make a decision, and um, 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.320 it turns out while that make might make us more 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.360 comfortable in the moment, it could lead to some things 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.960 that we regret over the longer term. And so we 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.039 definitely advocate slowing down and not making certainly those big 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.040 decisions overnight. Yeah, I feel like and I mean, just 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.000 our world today, it seems is only encouraging us to 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.200 make those decisions incredibly quickly, just the amount of information 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.240 that we're inundated with. Right. But with that mind though, 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.400 you can plan things out perfectly, right, but the world 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.120 it likes to throw us curveballs, both personally but then 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.160 also just from a from a macro perspective. Just think 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.800 about everything that we've experienced over the past couple of years. 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.040 So how would you recommend for folks to factor in 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.640 the inevitability of uncertainty when it comes to their decision 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:19.320 making processes. Yeah? Absolutely, I mean, if if nothing else, 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.680 the last few years has taught us that you can 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.760 make plans. But you know, the saying is, uh, you 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:31.800 people plan and God laughs right. Yeah, Um, so we 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.640 certainly aren't saying, oh, if you follow this process, it 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.920 will just be like clockwork. But what we do believe 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.880 and we've road tested what we call our five Seas 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.120 framework over the past several years, and not this has 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.800 not been a smooth, you know, paved road, right. We've 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.080 been like in a jeep with potholes and mudslides and monsoons. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.200 Like it's been very uncertain, tricky terrain. And we we 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.239 know that even when those inevitable curve balls get thrown 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.400 at us, if you're following a says that you are 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.640 aware of that you are intentional about that, you feel 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.080 more confident on the other side, regardless of of the outcome, 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.320 and you feel like you've actually approached it in a 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:15.320 thoughtful way, and no matter what happens that you didn't expect, 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.280 you can't say that you didn't do your best in 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.080 terms of actually approaching it. Yeah, that's a good point. 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:23.760 I think even if you end up getting down the 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.000 road and you're like, man, I kind of wish I'd 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:27.560 gone the other route, at least you put it through 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.120 a rigorous process, right, And it's tougher to beat yourself 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.000 up endlessly because you went through some sort of framework. 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.600 And you talk about the five Seas framework in the book, 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:38.800 Can you give us a brief overview of what that 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:40.560 looks like we're going to talk about in a bit 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.679 some of the major decisions that you cover and how 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:44.559 to think through them. But I think the framework could 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.400 be helpful to kind of get to that. Now. Yeah, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:47.880 i'll give you, I'll give you kind of a high 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.720 level of the five season. Then I'll just go deeper 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.880 into one that I think your listeners will especially be 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:58.880 interested in. So the first is clarify what's important to you. 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.920 The second is communicate with the people who are involved 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:07.400 in the decision. The third is choices, evaluate all the 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:12.040 possible choices, the fourth is check in with friends, family, 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:17.080 trusted resources, and the fifth is consequences. And I want 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.600 to just touch on this consequences step because you know, 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.160 I imagine people listening to the show are thinking a lot, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:28.360 particularly about the financial consequences of decisions, and just hypothetically 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.960 so um by a house. It's way outside my proctory. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:35.000 It's one of the consequences of that. Yeah. So I 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.760 think again, human nature is that we think a lot 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.840 about the near term consequences. We actually overweight Research shows 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.840 the near term consequences of decisions, and so when you're 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.959 making a big life decision, it's important to make yourself 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.360 think about all the different time horizons, right, not just 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.640 the short term, say like between now and six months, 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.959 but the medium term, say, you know, six months to 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.280 a couple of years, and then you know, what's the 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.079 long term consequences beyond a couple of years and and 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:10.400 those it's important to overcome that UM near term bias 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.240 by by tricking our brains and to plane out those consequences. 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.840 And you can certainly do things like assigned possible outcomes 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.400 to positive and negative consequences. You can, you know, get 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.640 nerdy like my husband and I did and assigned probabilities 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.360 and create decision trees. UM. Talk about that if you're interested. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.040 But UM, you know it, just making sure that you've 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.280 sort of played things out, not just what you can 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.440 kind of imagine you're going to be faced with in 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.520 in kind of the next couple of months, but further 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.880 down the road can be really helpful to UM. Examining 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.240 the possible consequences of your actions. Yeah, I like that, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:52.640 and I think one of the things that it makes 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.760 me think about is even just the first question we 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.640 asked you out of the gate, what's your craft beer equivalent? 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.679 Because I think it's important for people to identify that, like, 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.240 what is it that you want to spend money on 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.320 right now, even while you're being smart with your money 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.320 for the future, Because if you don't have that outlet, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.520 if you don't have that release valve, there are consequences 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.120 to that too, right to not enjoying at least some 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.040 of the money that comes into your life. So I 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.120 think even a question like that is important for helping 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.000 fuel the money decisions that we make, because there are 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.640 long term and short term consequences that we bear, and 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.360 if we don't, you know, use our money proactively in 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.280 ways that are going to make us happy in the 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.480 here and now, it's the investing for the long term 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.720 might be short lived. So those are I think that 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.000 thinking about it in terms of different time periods for 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.679 the possible consequences is really wise. So I was actually 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.720 I was curious which of the five sees that you 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:45.600 thought might be most consequential to our listeners, avvy, But what, like, 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.079 what is it about like long term thinking versus short 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.319 term thinking? Like is it just because we experience the 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.320 short term most immediately most directly, that we're only thinking 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.400 about the here and now and oftentimes we're not thinking 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.560 about our future selves. Like it makes you think about 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.120 how like we we've recommended before Joel and I to 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.800 like mess around with the face app even and it's like, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.320 let's see what you might look like in fifty years 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.520 with future you, because oftentimes I think we do have 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:14.720 a tough time thinking that far off in the future. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.319 But I'm I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.839 as well as to why it is that we do that. No, 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.000 that's exactly right, and I think there have been studies 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.040 showing that when you do see renderings of yourself in 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.640 the future, you do make better decisions for the long term. 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:29.920 It's actually one of the reasons I love having a 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.920 co author who's in her eighties, because she's seen so 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.199 many decades of life that I haven't yet, and so 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.120 it's very helpful when there is a um something that 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.160 happens right like a pandemic, to say, Okay, well, I 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.000 haven't quite seen this before, but I do know that 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:49.600 we're going to come out of this, and so that 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.600 long term perspective is so helpful. And you can't get 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.720 that unless you've lived it in a lot of ways, 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.280 but you can sort of trick your brain UM into 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.880 thinking that by playing out the longer term consequences over decades. 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:03.920 And you can do that with your budget, right your 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.040 financials and UM certainly before you make big decisions like 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.360 buying a house, people do that, but you don't always 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.679 do that with UM relationship decisions right with UM. You know, 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.200 getting married, you might do a budget for a wedding, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.760 but maybe you're not UM modeling out what it would 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.280 look like to combine debt over time. And those are 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.200 some things that is really a really important to think 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.679 about in the long term. Yeah, well, I like what 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.559 you said to age group, Like I feel like we 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.000 we are. We tend in modern America to silo amongst 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.520 age groups. And there is something massively beneficial about having 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.400 a relationship with your grandparents, about having an older neighbor 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.160 next door that you look in on, take and from them, 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.800 you know, like, yeah, we we are are we We 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.760 value youth in our Yeah, and in many ways to 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.280 our detriment. Um. I want to nail in on one 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.120 of the other sees for a minute, Abbey before we 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.560 kind of get into some of the specific topics you 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:01.000 cover in the book. Communication right easier said than done. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.360 Most of us were not great at it. Uh, And 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:05.880 so can you give some advice on when and how 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.040 to communicate effectively when you're kind of talking through some 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.120 of these major decisions. What does communication look like? Kind 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:17.680 of broadly speaking. Yeah, well, so the first thing to 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.120 keep in mind before you communicate is knowing where you stand, 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.280 what you want and so that's hopefully what you've done 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.240 in the first step. So when you get to the 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.440 communicate step, this is you know, communicating with anyone who's 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.479 involved in a big decision, so not making an assumption 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.600 of what that person might value or or find important. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.240 You know, the biggest thing to keep in mind when 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.440 you're starting a conversation is when to do it right, 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.400 especially if you're talking about these big meadia topics. Don't 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.160 do it as you're you know, starting the morning rush 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.080 to get the kids out the door for school and 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.040 you're trying to remember all the backpacks and homework folders 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.760 and lunches, right, that's not an excellent time to make 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:00.000 sure that you're able to be calm and keep keep 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.480 your head about you. So, you know, I personally what 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.920 works for me is to do it on hikes. My 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.760 husband and I are big hikers. And so we'll just 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.040 kind of get out of our daily you know, all 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.680 the piles of laundry and and the dishes that need 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.960 to be done, go out on a hike, let our kids, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.840 you know, run up ahead, and then have a conversation 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.960 about some of these bigger topics when we're just kind 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.000 of in neutral territory, when we're in nature. Um, that 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.240 can be really helpful because you're not surrounded by the 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.560 stressors of day to day life. So thinking about the 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.520 setting of where you communicate is equally, if not more 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.840 important than thinking through what you're going to communicate. And certainly, 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:39.480 you know, let's say, the last thing I want to 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.000 share about this is is listening. Right, So many of us, 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.120 when we're talking, especially about big things that make us anxious, 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.040 we try to just get our thoughts out as quickly 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.000 as possible and just you know, make sure that the 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.359 other person has heard us. But but really, when you're communicating, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.640 it is a conversation, and you want to make sure 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.080 you're listening just as much as um as you're talking, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.040 if not more. Right, the whole old adage about like 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.280 the two ears one mouth, and that's about the amount 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.000 of time that you should be spending, and I think 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.880 it's true, especially about these big decisions. I love it. Yeah. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.280 Now I love in particular that you you and your 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.120 husband do that while you're hiking, just as a way 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.480 to kind of diffuse the situation, especially if it's something 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.480 that's uh a topic that might come with heightened emotions. 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.160 And Okay, so along these lines in your book, you 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.240 reference the Gottman's who there are there these relational experts, 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.400 but you lay out the negative communication styles that they mentioned, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.840 Like what do we need to avoid when it comes 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.280 to comes to these kinds of interaction besides just having 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.360 it uncomfortably in the morning at a terrible time, Like, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.040 what are the other negative communication methods that we can sidestep. Yeah, well, 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.960 they say that they can predict within like fifteen seconds 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.960 of a conversation whether a couple is going to get 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.520 divorced just based on their communication styles. So I think 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:57.120 that's fascinating. But yeah, I mean, certainly, um, what they 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.400 do not like is people who are who just shut down. 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.360 You know, that's called stonewalling, right you you, Um, one 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.240 person introduces a topic and the other person just refuses 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.560 to engage. I mean, that is definitely a recipe for 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.400 disaster because you might try to turn a blind eye 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.160 to these conversations, but life is going to happen whether 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.200 you're you know, engaged with them or not. And so 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.960 if you can, you know, have the conversation with your partner, 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.119 even tried to do it on neutral territory as possible 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.720 and diffuse a situation certainly, making sure that you're you're engaging, 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.679 that you're you know, thinking about yourselves sitting on the 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.880 same side of the table against the problem as opposed 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.560 to it's me against you. It's like, no, the problem 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.439 is you know, we have our kids going to college 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.480 and we're gonna have to save for that. Not oh, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.800 you're spending this much and you're spending that much. It's 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.040 like no, Actually, let's be a united front against the problem. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.560 And the more you can sort of think of the 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.400 discussion like that, the better off you'll be. Like that 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.440 that are We've got more to get to including we 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.360 just want to really dive in now on those additional 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.600 chapters where you literally give people frameworks for how to 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.280 think through the biggest love and money decisions in their lives, 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:16.080 dating and marriage. We're talking about uh prenups, about having kids, Uh, insurance, 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:17.760 things like that, where you choose to live. We're gonna 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.280 get too questions on all of the above right after this. 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.919 All right, we are back from the break talking with 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.200 Abby Davison. Let's talk about some of the I guess, 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.840 the major decisions that relate to love and money that 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.200 a lot of folks encounter just throughout their lives, Like 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.000 what should folks consider when it comes to dating and 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.400 when it comes to marriage, because you know, these are 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.160 some pretty big decisions. These are choices that are going 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.760 to have massive, a massive impact in both realms when 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.439 it comes to your money and when it comes to 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.000 relationships and love. Yeah, I mean, money is such a 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.480 big topic and we are so strongly influenced by our 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.080 own money stories and and so it's really important to 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.720 tell them to each other early and just get that 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:08.639 baggage out on the table so that you know what 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.520 you're dealing with. And you know, one of the things 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.159 that my husband and I talked about early on was debt. 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.760 Actually I had taken on student debt to go to 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.240 grad school, but I knew I was going to work 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.720 for a nonprofit after I graduated, and so um My 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:25.800 Stanford was going to pay back my loans. That was 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.280 one of the reasons I chose to attend there is 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.840 that they had that policy. But I knew that if 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.400 we did get married. Once we got married, they were 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.960 going to take both of our assets into account and 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.640 I would have had I had to disclose his assets 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.560 in addition to mine. And so we talked about that. 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.639 This was like even before you know we uh we 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.760 be proposed and we got engaged, we talked about how 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.120 after that happened, you know, what would happen to my debt? 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:54.720 You know, would he help me pay back my loans 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.600 because he was certainly going to prevent me from getting 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:58.919 Stanford to pay it back and so, um, you know, 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.320 just just talking a out things that we have, like debt. 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.679 But also, you know, I love the question that you 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.679 start out with, you know, what budget item do you 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.040 spend reckless amounts of money on? Because we don't want 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.920 someone to say, like, oh, no, that thing that brings 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.480 you joy, like you can't do that anymore exactly, no 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:21.959 more craft beers for the rest of the table. Get 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.640 the run away. Yeah, okay, So when you say get 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.720 it on the table, I am curious, like you're probably 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.720