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Speaker 1: Oh, hey there, and welcome to another podcast at a Bozeman,

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Speaker 1: Montaina called The Hunting Collective. This is episode eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: This episode, I believe it is an important one. It's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's one that's probably a little more perilous than some

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Speaker 1: of the others we've done. It might be a topic

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Speaker 1: that turns some people off, but hey, that's us, right Phil.

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Speaker 1: For those guys, it's important. Yeah, I've dragged you along,

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Speaker 1: kicking and screaming on this d ride that is The

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Speaker 1: Hunting Collective. Um, we're gonna be talking about race and

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Speaker 1: hunting specifically, things like privilege, things like cultural competency, a

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Speaker 1: lot around the history of the outdoors are institutions that

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Speaker 1: are our idols, uh, and conservation and whether that was

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Speaker 1: inclusive of African Americans. And we're gonna do that with uh.

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Speaker 1: Dr Carolin Finney, author author of a book called Black

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Speaker 1: Faces and White Spaces because it's spaces space, It's got it.

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Speaker 1: She's awesome and I really enjoyed talking to her. She's

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Speaker 1: full of life, um, full laughter, a great person to

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Speaker 1: kind of address what can be a tough topic or

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Speaker 1: topic that we don't talk about all that much. So

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to have her on. And prior to that,

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Speaker 1: we had one of my favorite folks in the world,

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Speaker 1: in the media world, specifically Miles Nulte, our director of Fishing,

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Speaker 1: but but really a thoughtful dude and somebody I would

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Speaker 1: go to for his opinion on almost anything in life.

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Speaker 1: He's got a lot to add to any conversation. All right,

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Speaker 1: enjoy Episode eighty nine. I guess I grew up on

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Speaker 1: an older road, a bartle to the meadal. I always

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Speaker 1: did what I told until I found out that my

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Speaker 1: brand new glows a game second hand from the rich

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Speaker 1: kids next door. And I grew up baths. I g

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Speaker 1: it's like grew well. I mean, there's a thousand things

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Speaker 1: inside of my head I wish I ain't seen, and

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Speaker 1: now I just wanted to a real bad dream or

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Speaker 1: being in Like I'm coming of a lot of the seams.

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Speaker 1: But thank you, Jack Daniels. Hey, everybody, welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Hunting Collective Episode eighty nine. Um, we got a lot

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Speaker 1: to get to. Miles Noltes here, I'm here. Uh, you

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Speaker 1: don't really know what we're gonna I actually have no

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Speaker 1: idea why I'm here. Yeah, Um, you asked me to

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Speaker 1: be here. And which is so I walked in Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so I did I do. It is a very

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Speaker 1: important subject one that I know you're versed on, so

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Speaker 1: I'm not worried about it. That's good. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is actually my first day back from vacation, so I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, you're feeling good. You're like, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty bellow right now. Yeah, me too. If we're on

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Speaker 1: like a podcast binging experience. And I just got done, um,

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Speaker 1: interviewing Carolin Finney, who wrote a book called Black Faces,

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Speaker 1: White Places, White Spaces is the correct title, and it's

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Speaker 1: the reimagining the place of the African American in the outdoors. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's cool. It was a good conversation. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of things that came up that I think we can

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Speaker 1: talk through here. It was one of those conversations where

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Speaker 1: I found her to be awesome. I found a conversation

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Speaker 1: to be enlightening. When I was like going driving home,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking of all the things I wish I

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Speaker 1: had had said, had acts. Actually you tend to do

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Speaker 1: when you when these things come up. So I think

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Speaker 1: we'll just go ahead. And with apologies to Carolyn for

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Speaker 1: not talking about him during the interview, try to bring

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Speaker 1: him up here, set the stage a little bit for

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Speaker 1: what what we're about to talk about there, UM, And

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Speaker 1: in the in the interview, I very much admitted to

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Speaker 1: UM being nervous about the conversation for many many reasons. UM. One,

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Speaker 1: because it's a conversation that's kind of like it's just perilous,

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Speaker 1: like that we can step in a lot of things here,

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Speaker 1: but like we gotta be able to have it, and

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Speaker 1: we gotta be able to have an in constructive way. Well,

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Speaker 1: anytime we talk about race in our culture, it feels

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Speaker 1: perilous generally, UM, for a lot of reasons. There. There's

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of bad ship tied up in our

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Speaker 1: historical and contemporary racial relationships, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: get spun up on our perspectives about that and very

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Speaker 1: very defensive to the point whereas you're saying, constructive conversations

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Speaker 1: can become very difficult. Yeah, we're just coming off a

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Speaker 1: podcast about regentative agriculture, UM, and now we're diving right

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Speaker 1: into some real social justice type topics. So it's gonna

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Speaker 1: take me a lot to dig out of this progressive

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Speaker 1: liberal hole that I'm digging myself into. I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: to have a couple of n Ray lobbyists on probably

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Speaker 1: go to a NASCAR race something like that did really

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Speaker 1: even it out. If you go to the NASCAR race,

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Speaker 1: you have to paint your your shirtless self with the

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Speaker 1: Confederate flag if you really want to get Jeff Gordon

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Speaker 1: still good because he's my favorite. If you're asking me,

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Speaker 1: you're asking the wrong person. You're a fan. Yeah, how

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Speaker 1: did you know? Nah, just made it up. Uh, Jeff

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Speaker 1: Gordon was great. That's the last time I was really

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Speaker 1: into Remember the DuPont Chevy. The DuPont Chevy, Kyle Kyle Bush.

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Speaker 1: That seems right, Yes, that seems like a guy. That's

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Speaker 1: a guy Tony Stewart. Hey, we're saying names now, all right,

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Speaker 1: orange shirt both Dale earned hearts, Yes, Junior and senior.

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Speaker 1: And there's probably another dude. There's another named Carrie Earnhardt.

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Speaker 1: Look at me pulling that out of nowhere. I think

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Speaker 1: I just had a small stroke. Uh. So here we

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Speaker 1: gotta get into this, like this conversation, right, you think

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Speaker 1: a lot about race and it's very important, Like it's

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Speaker 1: something that we have to address both from hunting community

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Speaker 1: side of things, where we know that two of our

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Speaker 1: um of the hunting communities, African American of the nation

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Speaker 1: is African Americans. These are things that we know. But

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Speaker 1: beyond that, beyond that kind of like very tangible look

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Speaker 1: at the numbers, there's just wanting to be inclusive, wanting

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Speaker 1: to go to the thing that we love so much,

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Speaker 1: and wanting to do in any possible way that we can. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter if it's whatever minority, whatever part

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Speaker 1: of the country, whether it's urban or rural, white or black,

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Speaker 1: we want people to understand it and come into it

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Speaker 1: and the best way that they can. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: this is just about this is just one step in

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Speaker 1: that journey, and it's specifically focusing on one group of

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Speaker 1: people that has been marginalized and has a history in

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Speaker 1: this country that's not so pretty um and the outdoors

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Speaker 1: is all entangled in that history. As as you'll hear

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Speaker 1: coming up, I mean you'll hear Carolin Finney talking about

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Speaker 1: how John Muir is a conservation hero and a hero

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Speaker 1: in the environmentalist movement, but also a big time racist

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Speaker 1: um in a big time very prejudiced and it's in

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Speaker 1: his writings, it's laid bare and what he writes, So

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Speaker 1: when we celebrate guys like that, Teddy wasn't exactly a

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Speaker 1: bastion of diversity either. Yeah he was. He was a

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Speaker 1: mixed up character in a lot of ways. But he

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Speaker 1: wasn't a huge fan of brown people. Yeah, no, not

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Speaker 1: at all. And so here we are with this, like

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Speaker 1: we have built these folks up and for for what

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Speaker 1: they've done, we see them for what they've done for

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Speaker 1: our lives possibly. But then there's also this mixed history

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Speaker 1: that that Carolyn focuses on and wants to focus on,

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Speaker 1: um because it's a part of her history. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so there's some convenient parts that we ignored or don't

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Speaker 1: talk about it, but that I think is just natural

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Speaker 1: because it's hard. It's hard for us to come to

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Speaker 1: grips with that a little bit, I think so. And

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Speaker 1: and the piece that I'm sure you got into with Carol,

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Speaker 1: and that I think is important. Right, we were going

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Speaker 1: to talk about it in hunting and fishing perspective in

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Speaker 1: terms of this creating or how we think about being

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Speaker 1: inclusive for the folks that we speak to. But if

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Speaker 1: you look at the outdoor recreational community in general, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know how much time you spend

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Speaker 1: an r e I. But the last time I was

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Speaker 1: an R E I, I wouldn't. I wasn't thinking, you

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Speaker 1: know what, this is a cultural melting pot. I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm in I feel like I'm in New Orleans

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Speaker 1: right now. That is not my experience when I'm in

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Speaker 1: R E I. White people in Puffy Jack exactly. Like

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there are a lot of affluent,

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Speaker 1: well to do, well meaning white people in here, and

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Speaker 1: this is that's nothing to say against well me and

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Speaker 1: white people. Yeah. I mean like she did, you know,

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Speaker 1: a really good job of setting up some of these things.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, and I admit to having anst around

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Speaker 1: how we talk about this in the way that we're

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Speaker 1: to not be reductive about r I is the way

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Speaker 1: it is not because there's a bunch of racist people

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Speaker 1: that that own it. It is because it's like a

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Speaker 1: part of our culture that has gone that way. And

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Speaker 1: Caroline talks about and something that really struck me as

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Speaker 1: effective is cultural competency, like understanding being being competent in

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Speaker 1: both articulate about where we come from, how we got here,

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Speaker 1: and then that's a better way to acknowledge someone coming

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Speaker 1: into a situation going I don't feel comfortable or welcome

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Speaker 1: and this thing you've created, and what I will you'll

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Speaker 1: hear me tell her right off the bat is like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, when I read your book, I'm looking

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Speaker 1: around reading some other things. I feel like, I just

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Speaker 1: want to tell you that it sucks that other people

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Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable in the place that has done so

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Speaker 1: much for me. Like it sucks, Right, that's not great. Um,

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Speaker 1: it sucks, but it's also understandable. Yes, it's understandable. It sucks.

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Speaker 1: Let's do something about it. That's that's where I come from.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any feeling like I want to play

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Speaker 1: until one hand or the other. I just want to

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Speaker 1: make sure we've had this conversation and we understand it's

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Speaker 1: an issue for very very good reasons. But we ignore

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of this conversation. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: much more comforta will to stay within your own space

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Speaker 1: with people who look like you and sound like you,

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Speaker 1: and have a you have a shared cultural background and

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Speaker 1: experience with you have a shared knowledge base. Right, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to work hard when you and I get together.

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Speaker 1: Right in case people listening don't know, I am also

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Speaker 1: a white man, just just in case that wasn't immediately obvious. Um,

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Speaker 1: I am bearded. I have my Bosman camouflage on all

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Speaker 1: the time. Um. But when you and I sit down,

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Speaker 1: there is a baseline of expected knowledge that we have

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Speaker 1: that we don't have to recreate, both in the way

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Speaker 1: that we speak and the experiences that we share that

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Speaker 1: other people coming into this room would not have, right,

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Speaker 1: and so there's a comfort there. So I think the

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Speaker 1: point is not that there is some grand conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: make outdoor recreation, particularly hunting and fishing, a uniquely white activity.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's generally true. I don't think that's

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Speaker 1: true at all, really, But the I think there's a

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Speaker 1: need to recognize that whether it's inten and they're not,

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Speaker 1: that's the experience of someone coming in from the outside.

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Speaker 1: Like I don't go sit down at a mahjong table

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Speaker 1: in Chinatown and feel immediately comfortable. Yeah, I have no

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Speaker 1: touch point for what the hell is going on there.

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Speaker 1: And it might be that Majong is an amazing game

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Speaker 1: that gives people all kinds of insight into their life

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Speaker 1: and and things that I don't have in my own world.

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Speaker 1: And if I could get into that community, I would

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Speaker 1: experience those benefits to but I don't have that. That's

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Speaker 1: the sort of corollary we have to recognize in terms

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Speaker 1: of welcoming people in and saying like, hey, these are

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Speaker 1: things that may not feel immediately comfortable to you. This

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Speaker 1: means the space that may not be something you understand

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Speaker 1: or have any contact with, we think it's valuable. You

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Speaker 1: might want to check it out. It's it's not. And

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Speaker 1: if this argument comes down to like, well, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not a conspiracy and they're welcome any time when I'm

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Speaker 1: not intentionally excluding anyone that doesn't get us anywhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's where I'm at, right. So you could say you

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Speaker 1: could be you know, a little reductive or about this

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Speaker 1: and say like, I don't you know what am I

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Speaker 1: gonna do? If they want to public lands is a

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Speaker 1: good example. If they want to come to public Lands,

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Speaker 1: are more than welcome there. Like that's that's the great equalizer.

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Speaker 1: Everybody can go and step on those things. You could

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Speaker 1: say all that, and I've said it in the past,

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Speaker 1: but like, it doesn't do anybody any good to disservice

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Speaker 1: to to write this this type of thing off and

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Speaker 1: when you hear Caroline talk, You'll quickly come to realize

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of baggage here, cultural baggage that comes

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Speaker 1: along with all our institutions, all our legislation, all of

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Speaker 1: our leaders that we we so we so idolize, like

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Speaker 1: all these things have baggage, and why not Why wouldn't you,

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Speaker 1: as an intellectual, well meaning person want to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: baggage and and figure out how to get it, get

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Speaker 1: over it and not. You know, I think sometimes there's

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Speaker 1: some shallow, well also well meaning folks in the hunting

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Speaker 1: industry that just like a black hunter put them up

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Speaker 1: like here they are, yeah, and we talk and we

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Speaker 1: talked about that too in the interview, is like we

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Speaker 1: put them up. Oh my god, they're here, Like that's

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Speaker 1: one way to go. That's fine. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: like we should be able to meet them where they

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Speaker 1: are and say, hey, look, I get it. I understand

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Speaker 1: that there's some ants here that we need to address.

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Speaker 1: I there's there's a lot of me that just doesn't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know your perspective, so I can't really help.

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Speaker 1: But let me listen to you and let me figure

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Speaker 1: it out with you. Like I think that's maybe reaching

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Speaker 1: across the aisle that exists. There's a difference between being

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Speaker 1: allowed to be somewhere and being welcomed somewhere. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's the ultimately the conversation topic we're having right now,

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Speaker 1: and the I've talked to a lot of folks who

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Speaker 1: disagree with me, who say, well, just having that allowance

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Speaker 1: gets me off the hook I have. I have no

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Speaker 1: more responsibility here other than to say, like, you can

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Speaker 1: do this, I'm not stopping you. And I take it

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Speaker 1: to a different level and say no, there's a responsibility

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Speaker 1: to understand cultural and historical context, which sounds like you

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Speaker 1: dive into significantly. That's the best thing that comes out

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Speaker 1: of this, in my opinion, and that because of that context,

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Speaker 1: I feel more of responsibility. I feel responsibility to do

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Speaker 1: more than just say you're allowed out. I feel responsible

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Speaker 1: to say no, you're welcome, and and I would like

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Speaker 1: to find ways to make this a more comfortable place

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Speaker 1: for you to step into if that's something you're interested

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Speaker 1: in doing. And this is something that came up and

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Speaker 1: I wish I do regret not really diving into this

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Speaker 1: in more detail with Caroline, but we can certainly discuss

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Speaker 1: it here there there is there's there's an idea that

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Speaker 1: she brings up. And another writer that she is friends

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Speaker 1: with named Jonathan Hall, who final was on Anthrew Bordin

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Speaker 1: Show and wrote an article hunting will Black. He's pretty

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Speaker 1: direct and saying like, I'm not comfortable and going on

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Speaker 1: public lands and and it's because there's white people with

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Speaker 1: guns then, and so as I think about that, I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: H This whole podcast, this conversation is partly just understanding

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Speaker 1: that feeling or trying to get a good understanding that feeling.

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Speaker 1: I said, listen, I grew up in Maryland. When I

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Speaker 1: went to Baltimore to attend a sporting event or something,

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Speaker 1: and we went a couple of blocks west of where

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Speaker 1: we probably should have been, I felt very uncomfortable. I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was in danger. Um. But there's a

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Speaker 1: point in in that logic where it falls apart from

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Speaker 1: me or it's like, how do you how are you

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Speaker 1: going to go through life attaching? Is it the same

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Speaker 1: thing to say, like, if I see a bunch of

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Speaker 1: black guys in the corner in West Baltimore, that I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming what they're up to. If you see a bunch

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Speaker 1: of white hunters walking around in deer camp and in

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Speaker 1: the middle of Colorado, you're assuming that there might be

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Speaker 1: inherent danger there, or there might be some inherent bias there,

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Speaker 1: Like it's a tough way to walk around in the world,

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Speaker 1: and that like you're carrying the baggage around with you,

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Speaker 1: um in a way that that just it has to

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Speaker 1: shape your own interactions, in your own perceptions of how

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Speaker 1: people treat you. And so that's one thing that I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about last night after we recorded with Carolyn,

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Speaker 1: and I wish I'm a email her about this just

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Speaker 1: because I think it's important and she would have a

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Speaker 1: great answer to it. So I'm sorry everybody listening that

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Speaker 1: we didn't do this, but we touched on around it.

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Speaker 1: But that's something I was thinking about. I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to write off the

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Speaker 1: fact that Jonathan Hall and Carolyn Finney feel very uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: walking around in public lands. I think Jonathan Hall wrote

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Speaker 1: that he feels like he would have to wear a

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Speaker 1: triple orange, and Caroline told a story like she just

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Speaker 1: didn't want to go right, And so I get that,

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Speaker 1: But at what point are you kind of manifesting and

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Speaker 1: manifesting the thing you don't want. Oh man, I don't

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Speaker 1: know that. That's I think. I'm certainly not gonna speak

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Speaker 1: for I can't speak for anyone else's experience, and I

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Speaker 1: certainly can't speak for the experience of being a black

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Speaker 1: person going hunting. I can't. So I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: the best I could do in this situation is we're

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Speaker 1: having this conversation is to say, like I I the

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Speaker 1: only time in my life when I lived in the

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Speaker 1: city was when I went to college and I lived

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and I made a bunch of different friends,

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Speaker 1: a lot of different backgrounds, some of whom I'm still

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Speaker 1: in very contact with. And when I invite friends of

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Speaker 1: mine who are black who still live in l A

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Speaker 1: to come out to Montana and go hunting with me,

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Speaker 1: the response I always get is, I'm really not comfortable

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Speaker 1: running around in the woods of Montana with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of where there's gonna be a bunch of white dudes

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Speaker 1: with guns and you're I hear your point, but I

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Speaker 1: also think that, like, I'm not gonna try and convince

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Speaker 1: them like, yeah, you're You're reality is wrong and that's

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Speaker 1: what everybody here is super cool and won't shoot you.

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Speaker 1: That's why I didn't get to say that to Caroline,

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Speaker 1: But that's I do feel that there's some element of

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Speaker 1: that present, Like that's not You're not gonna go to

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Speaker 1: someone and be like get over it. Because once you

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Speaker 1: hear Caroline speak or some you know, intelligent African Americans

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Speaker 1: speak about kind of their feelings around race and the

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Speaker 1: outdoors and culture, you've very quickly come to realize that,

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Speaker 1: like this ship is real and if you write it off,

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Speaker 1: you're an idiot. Like, but there's also like some things

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Speaker 1: that can be improved on that side of the coin

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Speaker 1: to say, like Okay, like don't generalize all nineteen white

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Speaker 1: hunters in the way that you wouldn't want me to

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Speaker 1: generalize all all people on the other side, Um, whether

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Speaker 1: the generalization is warranted through like millennia of of funked

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Speaker 1: up occurrences between our races, Like it's hard to continue

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Speaker 1: to walk through the world like that, I would think, right,

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Speaker 1: and like it's it's really wearing that baggage in a

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Speaker 1: way that is troublesome. Um, I want to help with

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Speaker 1: a solution there. I'm not saying I'm not calling them

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Speaker 1: out in any way, but it's just something I was

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Speaker 1: thinking of But here's the thing, right, like, and let's

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Speaker 1: set aside any issues of getting shot, because I think

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Speaker 1: that's a little hyperbolic. I don't actually think that people

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Speaker 1: in the woods, no matter how racist they are, gonna

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Speaker 1: be like, there's a black dude, shoot him and call

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Speaker 1: it an accident. I don't. I don't see that as

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Speaker 1: a reality. But what I do see as a reality is,

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Speaker 1: let's be let's be frank, let's be straight up about it.

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Speaker 1: If you brought a friend who was not white into

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Speaker 1: hunting camp, there would be double takes if people hadn't

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Speaker 1: been prepared for that, right and then, and what that means,

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that is that person would immediately

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Speaker 1: recognize that they were in a place where they were

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Speaker 1: the odd person out and they didn't immediately feel like

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Speaker 1: they fit into there. And that's a hard thing to do,

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Speaker 1: right because you have to be the interloper. You have

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Speaker 1: to be the first person to come across the line.

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Speaker 1: It's to to build off analogy. It would kind of

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Speaker 1: be like you walking into West Baltimore. Probably nothing bad

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Speaker 1: is going to happen to you, but there might be

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people who just kind of like, why

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Speaker 1: are you here, dude, are you doing? Why? Why are

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Speaker 1: you here? This isn't your space? Why? And that's an

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable place to be and you have to have good

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Speaker 1: reason and a lot of sort of internal fortitude and

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Speaker 1: self confidence to stay in that space when there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of people looking at you wondering why hell's

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Speaker 1: he here? Yeah, so it's yeah, it's easy. And many

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Speaker 1: of these conversations, like we can fall into the trap

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Speaker 1: of um talking about wanting diversity or talking about wanting

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Speaker 1: more hunters, but then falling short of actually like reaching

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Speaker 1: across that aisle that exists and saying, hey, let's deal

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Speaker 1: with this the way you want to deal with it,

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Speaker 1: instead of me dealing with this issue in the way

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Speaker 1: that I want to and telling you what you should

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Speaker 1: do to come up. It's gonna be a part of this,

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Speaker 1: like what do you want us to do? Because we care?

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Speaker 1: Man like I care. I think a lot of hunters care. UM,

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Speaker 1: And it's never just going to happen on its own.

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Speaker 1: It's quite obvious. There's too many there's too many barriers

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Speaker 1: of economic and cultural and social things that were If

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Speaker 1: they're not going to fall over on their own, we

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Speaker 1: gotta kick them over like, that's just how it is.

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Speaker 1: You like that one. I don't know if that's the

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Speaker 1: analogy I would personally run with. I'll let you go.

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Speaker 1: Whatever I mean, we got, we have to address them,

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Speaker 1: like we have to address those things head on. Hey,

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Speaker 1: come up with a bag. Every one wasn't a while.

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Speaker 1: I get good on the analogies where Miles is like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like what you're saying, and I get carried away

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Speaker 1: and get too confident. Kick them, kick them, kick them over,

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Speaker 1: burn them. So I mean things you may or may

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Speaker 1: not know about me. But I don't know if we've

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Speaker 1: recovered this. But I spent two years of my life

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Speaker 1: actually living in Botswana true story, when I was in

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Speaker 1: my twenties. My first job out of college was teaching

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Speaker 1: in Southern Africa, right, and so I had a lot

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Speaker 1: of time living in places where I was quite literally

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Speaker 1: the only white person in that neighborhood and living there

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Speaker 1: in in it's it's a It was an incredibly valuable

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Speaker 1: time in my life and I'm I'm so happy for

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Speaker 1: the time that I spent living and working there. And

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Speaker 1: it was exhausting. And by that I mean constantly being

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Speaker 1: the person who sticks out and constantly being the subject

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Speaker 1: of attention and curiosity and wonderment. Right you are. You

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Speaker 1: are a symbol of wonder like, Wow, what are you?

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Speaker 1: That's like phil that here, that's true? That that that

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Speaker 1: requires that requires a lot of energy all the time.

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Speaker 1: You never get to be relaxed. When you are completely

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Speaker 1: out of your element and you are the thing, the

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Speaker 1: object of curiosity. You don't ever get to be off

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Speaker 1: or just chill. So I think that a hunting camp

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Speaker 1: for a person of color is a very different experience

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Speaker 1: than it is for me having just left hunting camp

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Speaker 1: for the past five days, where I could just be

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Speaker 1: as calm as possible and just be in my space

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Speaker 1: and myself and just be dirty and nasty and not

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Speaker 1: worry about what I'm saying or how I'm saying it,

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Speaker 1: or how I present myself. That is the opposite of

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Speaker 1: the experience that I had when I was living in

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Speaker 1: Botswana for twoyears, where I was constantly aware of how

428
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: my presence was being interpreted because I was the symbol

429
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: of all whiteness. Whatever I did, according to these people,

430
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 1: because it's their personal experience, was emblematic of white That's

431
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: a lot of responsibility. Yeah, you're like Hey, let's read

432
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 1: a book. White people read books. I do. I like, yeah,

433
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: And I think there's an understanding that I even would

434
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: would would admit to not having about those things. UM.

435
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 1: And that's I think that's where the nervousness comes from.

436
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: That's where my own personal acts comes from around these topics,

437
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: because I don't want to fall in some trap. I

438
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 1: don't want to be fall prey to the outrage machine.

439
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 1: But I but I do want to understand what you're

440
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: talking about, um, having never been through it myself. And

441
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: and and that's when you bring up terms like white privilege.

442
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: It that things has charged like socially and politically charged

443
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 1: as like assault weapon or trophy hunting or all these

444
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: things that we use. So when you start talking about privilege,

445
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: immediately like you have to have a thought and generally, yeah,

446
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 1: it's you're generally gonna be triggered one way or the other.

447
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: So I I think Carolin did a great job of

448
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: addressing that part for sure. But there's a lot of

449
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 1: kind of like little booby traps in this in this conversation,

450
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: I think that the piece and I'm just imagining the

451
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 1: folks out there listening to this, who are already being

452
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,239
Speaker 1: perhaps triggered or skeptical based on like, oh god, damn it,

453
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: why do I have to think about this in relation

454
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: to hunting. Why why can't I just have one part

455
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: of my life where I don't have to think about

456
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: like privilege or class or socio nigro stuff, Like why

457
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: do we have to taint it? And I know how

458
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: I would respond to that, but I'm wondering what your

459
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 1: responses to those folks. That's life, Get over it, like

460
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: it's life. Sports. I love sports. I like football, You

461
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: like football? You know what football is? Cultural? Social, political,

462
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 1: It's like the entertainment industries that way, everything is fraught with. Um,

463
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: these these big things we have to we have to

464
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: approach and deal with, and it's up to us to

465
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: determine how we do that. And if we're going to

466
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: write that off because we just want to have a

467
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: good time, you can't. You're never gonna be a really

468
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: good representative hunting unless you can do these things. I feel, um,

469
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: A lot of people might disagree with that, but I

470
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: feel like these kind of ideas and these kind of

471
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: thought processes, Um, I may have made the mistake of

472
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: being a little bit self congratulatory within these conversations like

473
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: I'm doing it and you're not, Like that's stupid, Uh,

474
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: because like talking to a real smart black ladies somehow courageous.

475
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: It's not. But but I wanna it should be. We

476
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: should normalize it at least. Um, we're not gonna overplay it.

477
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: We're not gonna bringing up every conversation. This is one

478
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: of very many important issues that we'll discuss on this podcast,

479
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: but we shouldn't at least normalize getting over it and

480
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: talking about it and having it be a part of

481
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: the lexicon. Like that's if we can just do that

482
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: and make and make everyone comfortable with that, then eventually

483
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: we'll just move moving the right direction, which we are. Um,

484
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: but I think the hunting community stands as a mostly white,

485
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: male dominated thing and we should address that ship and

486
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: however we do it, it's up to the individual. But

487
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: in this in this podcast, we're just gonna talk about it,

488
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: and we're gonna find real smart people like yourself and

489
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: others to just kind of help us through it. But

490
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: my question now to you, because I think all that's valid.

491
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: But and again I know how I would answer this question,

492
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: but I think people listening want to know how you're

493
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: gonna answer this question. What benefit does the hunting community

494
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: get from this conversation? What is the benefit to the

495
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: honey mean by having to address itself as being primarily

496
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: white male? And what's wrong with it being a white

497
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: male space. Okay, there's two things. We'll start by saying, frankly,

498
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: this I want. I want when something is primarily like

499
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: you're just discussing, when something is primarily one thing, it's

500
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: never gonna be welcoming to the folks that aren't that

501
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: one thing, right, So diverse like diversity in this in

502
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: this case is allowing hunting to grow in a way

503
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: that it wouldn't if it's going to be primarily white

504
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: for the history of time. Like the changing demographics are important,

505
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: we should want to change the demographs in a positive way.

506
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: So eventually, when minorities look at hunting, they see a tapestry.

507
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: They don't see a monolith, like they see this this

508
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: very bright, colorful thing that has all kinds of cultural

509
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: influences and it's kind of a mixing pot, melting pot

510
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: of ideas and experiences and people. That's a that's a

511
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: welcoming place to be. What's not a welcoming place is

512
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: white dudes. It's like it's just not gonna be. So

513
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: if we want to change, on't think that's conceptually one

514
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: way to do it. And when I look at what

515
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: I why I'm here, why I'm sitting here, I love hunting.

516
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: If I remove my personal love for it, there's a

517
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: collective idea that we gotta grow it, we gotta make

518
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: it more acceptable. We have to increase its importance in

519
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: the culture and our society. And the only way, one

520
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: of the only ways to do that is to bring

521
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: in people that can both add to our collective juice

522
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: like that can give us something that we don't currently have.

523
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: But at the same time, there's more of us, there's

524
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: more understanding. So if you're not willing to to do

525
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: this kind of thing and you want to be kind

526
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: of minimalist and reductionist about how you reach out, then

527
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: you're never really going to create the thing that needs

528
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: to be created, like I feel and and so. But

529
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: there's other elements to why we need to have this conversation.

530
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: Hunting is falling. We wanted to grow. There's a lot

531
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: there's of America's African American, but that's the tactical way

532
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: to approach that. I think that your response addresses why

533
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: it's good for the two of non white hunters who

534
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: exist out there. I don't think it necessarily dresses like

535
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: why that you care? And so I'll put out an

536
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: idea I thought, Well, I think it does though. I

537
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: think it says listen, man, like, the only way this

538
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: goes forward, we've already seen this. The only way I

539
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: think this goes forward is if it's socially acceptable. The

540
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: question that is being asked in our culture is is

541
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: this good? Is it good? And is the motivation good?

542
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: And if that question is being asked it's being answered

543
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: by a wide swath of very diverse people that is growing,

544
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: then we have a better chance of getting what we desire,

545
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: which is more access, more hunting, you better ways to

546
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: have our society understand this thing. So if you're in

547
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: then if you're in the current hunting community and you

548
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: and you need a better understand that, that's what That's

549
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: what I would tell you. I would just tell you

550
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: that this is all about understanding, and we currently have

551
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: a misunderstanding with this group of people. We just do

552
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: I would, I wouldn't. I don't even know what steps

553
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: really just slightly different tech. I would say that I

554
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: think we live in a culture that is increasingly and

555
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: more aggressively siloed all the time, and it's easier for

556
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: us to escape into our small little silos. Whether that's

557
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: how we consume news, whether it's the way that we

558
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: choose the socialize with, the way we choose to consume sports,

559
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: whether it's the way we choose to have leisure activities.

560
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: It is so easy for us to not leave these

561
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: pockets of comfort all the time. Now we I can

562
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: go to work, I can go home, I can watch

563
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: the shows I like, I can consume the news I like,

564
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: I can go to the websites I like, and I

565
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: can almost never be confronted in a meaningful way with

566
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: ideas or perspectives that are different from or challenging to

567
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: my own. I think that we as individuals grow and

568
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: learn and become more dynamic, positive, well meaning, better contributors

569
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: in general, and more confident people when we have to

570
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: confront other perspectives and be be comfortable with that, and

571
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: be able to adapt to that, be able to react

572
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: to that in meaningful ways. And I think that goes

573
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: for hunting significantly hunting and fishing. I'm not going to

574
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: cut fishing out of this. I'm the fishing director. Let's

575
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: talk about fishing too. Fishing is exceptionally white. It's it

576
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: fits into the conversation. I think that when hunting and

577
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: fishing are these spaces where I can just go there

578
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: and not be confronted with any sense of difference or

579
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: anything that is challenging. That is a diminishment of my

580
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: experience because it's too easy for me to just settle

581
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: into it and never have to see a different perspective.

582
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: And then that gets into so many other topics, right

583
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: the death of journalism, like all these things that how

584
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: we communicate with each other, what we expect from each other, um,

585
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: what the national consciousness is kind of like the idiocricy

586
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: that we might slip into if we get well, if

587
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: we you know, if the rock is the printin next

588
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: president states like that this is all it's all tied together,

589
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: like we should have we really should have an expectation

590
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: that this thing can be better. And this is and

591
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: I believe this is one of the ways that can

592
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: I do not so scribe people that know me to

593
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: social justice, like in the way that it's manifested itself

594
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: in this world. There are a lot of really good

595
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: things we can change. Um, there's one big swath of

596
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: this country that is that is going about it in

597
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: the wrong way, Like they're using victimhood as a way

598
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: to gain power, and like there's a lot of ship

599
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: um that I don't agree with. I push that all

600
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: aside in this conversation. Like I pushed that all aside,

601
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, there, there's this is an equation

602
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: like currently what we're doing ain't working. I mean, I

603
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: don't have the numbers of growth of African American hunters

604
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: in this nation, but I'm pretty sure those numbers don't

605
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: exist because they're not growing. And so we need to

606
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: address that. And the only way to do that is

607
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: understand first why it's not happening, and and somewhere like

608
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: Carolyn Finney can help us get there a little bit further.

609
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: And that's why I didn't want to just have some

610
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: black hunter on to tell me their experience. We'll get there, obviously,

611
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: I mean I've had those folks on this podcast before,

612
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: but I mean, I think it just takes a broader

613
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 1: understanding of that what's going on before we can really go.

614
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: I I completely agree, and I think that they're the

615
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: fundamental argument that has to be had before we can

616
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: start talking about the how is the why right? And

617
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: so to me, and I can't speak for anybody else,

618
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: but I'm going to say that my experience as a

619
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: hunter and as a member of this community becomes more

620
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: interesting and richer when I'm not just looking at dudes

621
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: with beards who are white and come from a similar background.

622
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: For sure, Like our podcast producer Karin has brought all

623
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: like Carolyn Finney wouldn't be on the show if it

624
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: wasn't for her, right, and like, but she brings this,

625
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: She's lived in New York, she brings these different sensibilities

626
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: to the table, and like, I could either fight that,

627
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: but no, that's not how we do things. Or when

628
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: she brings these things up, I'm like, damn, Like, let's

629
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: find a real nice way to address this thing you

630
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: brought up. That's that's um, that's valid. And we had

631
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: an article on our website which you'll remember very well,

632
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: entitled wait, let me let me is it was it?

633
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: It was it? A question? Was it framed a question? Question?

634
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: It's hunting, it's hunting too white? And like that. I

635
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: think in the arena where that lived. I mean, that's

636
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: a very like you put that on Facebook, and it's

637
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: a very like just read the headline and give a comment.

638
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: In this space where we can have a two hour discussion,

639
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: it's this is this can actually move us somewhere? That

640
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: thing all that thing did, We dropped it somewhere, and

641
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: all that thing did was just get people talking about

642
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: the subject again in a in what seemed like a

643
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: pretty healthy way and a lot of uh in a

644
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: lot of instances. So I think hopefully this will do that.

645
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: And I do I do very much understand that there's

646
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: some people who just don't want to listen to this

647
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: ship and they don't want to have to deal with it,

648
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: and they don't want somebody to push it on them.

649
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: And so if that's you, I'm sure you've already stopped listening.

650
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: You're welcome to stop listening right now. I could give

651
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: two ships. But if you, if you want to explore

652
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: this with us, this is hopefully a conversation that will

653
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: help you understand some things. Because I very much went

654
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: into conversation with Caroline Finny wanting to learn and wanting

655
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: just to ask her like Hey, I know I don't

656
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: get this. I know, I know I don't have the

657
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: right perspective here, Like what do I do? You know,

658
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: what what can I do? And then it's up to

659
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: me to determine from there where I go? You know

660
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 1: what I do if I learned want to read more

661
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: about John Muir and his racist tendencies and and look

662
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: back at, um, some of the early conservation pioneers and

663
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: kind of how they felt, and some of the early

664
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: institutions that were created and the basis on which they

665
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: were created. Um, that's I think the most tangible thing

666
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: that I've taken away from this thus far. Um. I'm

667
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: sure there'll be more, but that that, for me, is

668
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: where it landed. So I think it's positive, Phil, go

669
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: ahead and bring us home. But well, I mean, honestly,

670
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: I think Miles kind of summed up give a really

671
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: good summary of this whole conversation, Like pretty much right

672
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: up front was the being allowed versus being welcome, And uh,

673
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: you can't just ignore thousands of years of historical content

674
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: to where we are today. No, but I didn't do

675
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: anything exactly. Yeah, I mean it's like whatever Ben Ben

676
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: just said that that the term you know, like white

677
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: privileges immediately, like being like you your hairs stick up

678
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: and it's uh, it's you have a response to it,

679
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: but you know it is privileged to be able to

680
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: ignore things. And uh, I think having an empathy is

681
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: the most important thing we can have in any any space,

682
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: and I think it takes a lot of empathy to

683
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: kind of have these to explore these things. So you're

684
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: so good at this, Phil, I thought you were gonna

685
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: say no, I'm not gonna say anything. What you're good? Um,

686
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: all right, well let's we'll dive into conversation with Carolin Finney.

687
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: Like I said at the outset of this, it's uh,

688
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep having it. We're gonna keep talking about

689
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: this stuff and find better ways to address It's hoping

690
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: you fall along with us. But for now, please welcome

691
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: Caroline Finny. I guess I grew up on an alder row.

692
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: I don't, Hey, Carolin, how are you? I am good?

693
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're all the way in Vermont. I

694
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: wanted to be there in the room with you today,

695
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: but I was just telling you. If I had to

696
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: tell you the story of why I'm not there, it

697
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: would be longer than the podcast, So we'll do what

698
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: We're having a rare phone interview. UM. But thanks for

699
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: taking the time, and I'm excited to talk about some

700
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: of these subjects. Yeah, well, thanks for having me on

701
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: the show. I'm excited. Yeah, I've been. I've been. UM.

702
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: I would just say before we get started, like there's

703
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: the show that we do here and some of the

704
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: conversations we have. I get excited when it seems like,

705
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: at least on its face, that there's a conversation that

706
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm not supposed to have, or something I'm not supposed

707
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: to be particularly interested in, or topics that just seem

708
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: either within the culture that I run or within the

709
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: culture overall that seemed to be you know, hard to

710
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: broach or hard to understand. Um, these are things that

711
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: kind of pique my interest. So when when our producer

712
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: Karin passed me over your book Black Faces, White White Spaces, UM,

713
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: it took me a minute to realize the relevance. But

714
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: as soon as I read it, UM, and and started

715
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: reading some of your other works and interviews, I realized, like,

716
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: this is a conversation that I want to have. I

717
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: just don't know how to have it. So and I

718
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: want to say to you. And I tell people you know,

719
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: I work with all the time around this, groups and

720
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: organizations at that's part of the work, right, It's how

721
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: to have the conversation. It's not just the substance of

722
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: what it is that we're reading about or thinking about,

723
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: but how do we acthlete, you know, being a conversation

724
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: with each other around this, right, because if if we're

725
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: being honest, I'm a thirty three year old white male

726
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: that lives in Boza, Montana, and I have a hunting podcast. Yeah, yeah,

727
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't think I'm expected to or demanded

728
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: at least and in the hunting community, um, even in

729
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: the outdoor the greater outdoor community. It's not that I'm

730
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: being demanded to talk about this or that anybody is

731
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: pushing me towards the subject. But um, I just it's

732
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: an important one and I think it's one that a

733
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 1: lot of people are nervous about, me included. I don't

734
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, I don't I know, I

735
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: don't have the proper perspective. So I'm hoping that we

736
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: can get there today. Yes, absolutely, And uh, you know

737
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: I always tell people, um, you don't know what you

738
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, yeah, UM, and I would just I

739
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: started by I was thinking about how to at least

740
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: broach the subject of UM African Americans in in the outdoors.

741
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: And there's a lot you go into a lot of

742
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: history and a lot of idiosyncrasies within kind of the conversation.

743
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: But when I read it, I don't necessarily have any

744
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say I have guilt around this, but

745
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: I want to just lietually say I want to simply

746
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: say that that the outdoors, specifically in my case, hunting

747
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: has given me a lot and it sucks for me

748
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: to think that many people feel as they don't belong

749
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: in these places because these places I've meant so much

750
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: to me. So that's I think at first, Like the

751
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,959
Speaker 1: thing that struck me from your book was that. Yes,

752
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: and so a couple of things I want to throw

753
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: out there in no apparent order. UM. One, if you

754
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: haven't read it, and you probably have, UM, there's a

755
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: black Hunter. It's a friend of mine named Jonathan Hall

756
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: who Um. He is a professor in West Virginia, and

757
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: he wrote a piece for rewire News. It calls notes

758
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: from an angry Black Hunter, guns genocide, in the stolen

759
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: ground you own, and it is just really powerful, which

760
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: picture images of himself because he's a he's a hunter,

761
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: and um, he's out there all the time and he

762
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: does a really excellent job. I think of talking about

763
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: you know, how this is personal and that's the thing

764
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: that I always come to this. You know, people might

765
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: you know, can read the book are sort of looking

766
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: at that I'm talking about history. And actually the reason

767
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: I've come to this work is because it's personal. I

768
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: can never leave my skin at home, right. So the

769
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is I've spent my time backpacking

770
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: all around the world and I'm fortunate enough to have also,

771
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: you know, I travel a lot, and I love that.

772
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: And you know, at first glance when you see me, now,

773
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very urban. I'm from New York originally, and

774
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: I had this very urban feel about me. But there

775
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: was a period of time of five years I was

776
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: just in my backpacking gear in Africa and Asia and Napo.

777
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: You know, I was just all over the place before

778
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: social media and when I was a younger, a younger

779
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: person and doing those things all the time. Um, I

780
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: want to say that there's something about uh, well, I

781
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: can never get away from. And Jonathan talks about this

782
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: as well, is how we are perceived because we live

783
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: in a country, you know, four hundred five hundred years

784
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: of history that we've never actually fully reconciled, you know.

785
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is, while you know,

786
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: if we talk about the environment broadly defined nature the

787
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: environment the woods, even though we lived in the country

788
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: where Jim Crow, segregation was in place for many, many years,

789
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: and in some places one would argue, you have to

790
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: you have to think twice about it depending on who

791
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: you are, if you want to walk in those spaces. Um,

792
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: even though we didn't talk about nature in the woods

793
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: being like that, it was also like that it actually

794
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: didn't matter. So if we talked about you weren't allowed

795
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: to go into a movie theater in the forties or fifties,

796
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: you also weren't allowed to go on the beach the

797
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: same beach as white people during the parties and fifties

798
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: in some places. The facts of the matter is you

799
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: it didn't make a difference if it was a beautiful

800
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: park or beautiful woods to go hunting in. If you

801
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: were non white, you were there were different kinds of

802
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: risks you were taking because we I mean, look, we

803
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: live in a country where one we stole all the

804
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: land from American Indians. Let's just be real, right, and

805
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: we still haven't reconciled that, and then we enslaved a

806
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people to work as someone else's property

807
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: to build up our economy, right, so you know, and

808
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: let's not even talk about everything from the Chinese Exclusion

809
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: Act to the Japanese Internment to all the things that

810
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: we have done and continue to do in terms of

811
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: we've continue to do to to say who belongs here

812
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: and who doesn't and how one belongs here. So even

813
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: if you are here, you know how you are treated

814
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: and how you are seeing. And we don't want to

815
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: talk about this stuff out loud. Except in the last

816
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: couple of years, we've been doing it a lot, you know,

817
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: because we have a present administration that has allowed that

818
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: in a very different way. Right, So I don't get political,

819
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: but just to say, I mean, that's it's real. And

820
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: for a lot of us, like people like myself, there's

821
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: no there's no surprise here for me, right, there's no surprise.

822
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: So when some of my white friends are just like,

823
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, I can't believe that people are saying

824
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: this and I'm just looking at them, going, this is

825
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: what we've been saying to you that many of us

826
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: live with this on a daily for years. And it's

827
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: not to say things haven't improved from this fifties and sixties.

828
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: They have, and there's a way within which haven't reconciled

829
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: certain things around that. So whether you're hunting, whether you're

830
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: out hiking, whether you're camping, you know, whether you're trying

831
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: to find a job working in an outdoor agency, you know,

832
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: all of these things are going to impact you know, Um,

833
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: all of these things are impacted by a history that

834
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 1: we have yet to reconcile. Yeah, that term reconciles. Really

835
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: it seems like it's striking in a lot of ways.

836
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: And what you talked about, And I was just just

837
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: looking at Jonathan Hall's article. Yeah, I remember. I remember

838
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: that he was on Anthony Burnane's Parts Unknown, Um, an

839
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: episode that I saw him that I thought was really great.

840
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um, And like he says, of the land

841
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: is owned by white Americans, there's there's this feeling, at

842
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: least in my mind, if I could just make it,

843
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: you know, personally for me, because I think there's a

844
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 1: lot of people that are probably in my position where

845
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: like listen, we celebrate um. I sit on the board

846
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: of an organization called back Count Hunters and Anglish and

847
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: we celebrate public lands. I mean, that's what we're all about.

848
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: Access is a huge term within our space. Yeah, And

849
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: when I think of access, I don't necessary to think

850
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 1: of the history of access. I think of this emblematic

851
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: public place where anyone can go if they so desire.

852
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: But but what I have never addressed in my own mind.

853
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: I think what maybe is scary to think of is

854
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 1: the cultural baggage that comes with these things. And that's

855
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: just something I've never I've never thought about because I've

856
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: never been faced with it personally, right, And that that

857
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: was for me, that was beautifully said. That's it, you know.

858
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 1: That's why I say, in my most in my most

859
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: generous way, we don't know what we don't know. If

860
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: I was going to be a little kind of tougher

861
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: with it, I would say, privilege has the privilege of

862
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: not seeing itself. And everyone has privilege. I want to

863
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: be really clear about this to anybody worsening, But we

864
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: all don't have the same privileges in the same way

865
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: at the same time, in the same spaces, and so

866
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: part of that is really understanding that you haven't had

867
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: to think about it, which is great. Actually, I wish

868
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 1: no one had to think about it, because it sucks.

869
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: I can tell you, I have to think about it

870
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: because I'm only I'm so aware and I have been

871
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: reminded my entire life of my difference for better or

872
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 1: for worse. There it is right, and that it plays

873
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: out in some people's minds in different parts of the country.

874
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I was just living in Kentucky for four years.

875
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: That's interesting and on many levels. Um And I was

876
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: just back there a couple of maybe a month or

877
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: so ago because I was um uh an artist in

878
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 1: residence in this retreat with a number of women who

879
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: were writing about nature, and so we were staying outside

880
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: of Woulsville on this properties. It's hundreds of acres of

881
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: this um I think it's owned by some kind of

882
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: land conservancy, but there's a small piece of it that

883
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: this foundation had a house in a space for writers

884
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: and artists to come and spend time, and and they

885
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: told us they said it's hunting season, so they said,

886
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: if you want to go out, you can go out

887
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: walking on the property because it's really beautiful and there's

888
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: woods and um, but if you're going to do it,

889
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: you want to wear the orange, you know, the hunting jacket,

890
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: just so the hunters see you there. I have to

891
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: tell you whether it was reasonable or not. I didn't

892
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: go out even with that on, because I thought it myself,

893
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: you know, And after Jonathan's article and I said, you know,

894
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about that, you know,

895
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I just the hunters, like everybody else, are

896
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: individuals and individuals with their own set of biases. We

897
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: are all biased, right, and frankly, I just didn't want

898
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: to be out in the woods by myself hunting thing on,

899
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, just in case. I don't know, it was

900
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: probably it would probably be fine, even have to consider it,

901
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: That's what I right. Yeah. Jonathan says that his article,

902
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't have public land with white because

903
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: white men with firearms and a reason to discharge that

904
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: fires make me incredible nervous. That is something like I

905
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: would have never I would never have thought of that.

906
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: There's something I would have been like, come on, like,

907
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: I would never think that way. But the fact that

908
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: that some do is is certainly worth addressing and ask

909
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: you I'm another thing if you for I would offer

910
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 1: for your readers the story of Eddie Harris. Eddie Harris

911
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: is a fabulous He considers himself an outdoor He's a

912
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: black outdoor sportsman and he loves fly fishing and he's

913
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: written a number of books. When he was thirty, his

914
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: first book was called Mississippi Solo because he decided he

915
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: was going to sail take a canoe down the length

916
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: of the Mississippi River and he never canoed before. But

917
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: he tells his story in one of his other books

918
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: about how he's down somewhere in the South and he's

919
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: camping and you know, traveling with the gun, but not

920
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: because he's a hunter, because he's just like, you know,

921
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm a black man. I'm gonna be out camping in

922
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: the woods in the South, and the fact of the

923
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: matter is, you know, you don't know what's up right,

924
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: and so you have to prepare for that differently and

925
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: hopefully nothing bad ever happens, but sometimes something bad does happen.

926
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna say this. You know, a black

927
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: woman just got shot in our own home and killed.

928
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, these are are not unassociated. So

929
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: you know, do I do I feel any Am I

930
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: going to feel any more safe and protected out in

931
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: the woods? Yeah? Yeah, Listen, I like, I don't. Um

932
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: here's my comparison. The only like as you, as you

933
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: speak about this, I try to just kind of in

934
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: my own mind rationalize some of it and compare some

935
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: of it. Like I grew up. I grew up in Maryland,

936
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: and I did not grow up in Baltimore. Grew up

937
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: in Western Maryland, which is basically east West Virginia. It's

938
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: just the little panhandle area where you could consider it

939
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: to be pretty rural in that way. When we would

940
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: go to Baltimore to go to sports game or go whatever,

941
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 1: West Baltimore is a pretty rough place and it's mostly

942
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: African American, And when I would go there, I would

943
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: feel I would would drive through there, I would immediately

944
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable, like and I don't. You know, that's not

945
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: to say that any any of those emotions are right

946
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: or wrong, but I did because that's just what it was.

947
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: And so I don't I don't mean to compare that

948
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: to what you're saying, but just trying to think and

949
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: relate to what, Yeah, And I think that's important to

950
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: I mean, we have to. I always say, you've got

951
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: to start where you are, you know, um. And so

952
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: while there are differences and differences, I can point to

953
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: what's real for you and for me as human beings.

954
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: What what is that that comes up that fear, the

955
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: fear of not knowing, the insecurity that one can feel

956
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: about being in a space where, especially when you're in

957
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: a space with people who are not you, who don't

958
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 1: look like who you, and most importantly, who you don't know.

959
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: And to understand that all of us in this country

960
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: have been educated either consciously or subconsciously about our history.

961
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: Are everything that we learn in school? You know, I

962
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: always say to people, there's all the stuff that we learned,

963
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 1: and there's all the stuff we are never told, right,

964
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: and you know, and there's a lot of that, right,

965
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of there's all those subconscious

966
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: messages you know that teachers and and books were given

967
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: and the choices that were made. I'm not saying that

968
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: they're bad or good. I'm just saying that we have

969
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: never been given the complete and all the information right

970
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: out there to choose from, and all of our legislation,

971
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: all of our policy. You know, if I think about

972
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: all these environmental organizations historically, their mission statements in part

973
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: we're founded around and aspiration for, you know, protecting public lands,

974
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: and I think all that's a really good thing, right.

975
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I start on the National Parks Advisory

976
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: Board for eight years, so I'm also about thinking about

977
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: public lands actually all lands, but public lands in particular,

978
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: you know, um, and how we can care for them

979
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: and being better relationship to them. And I also understand

980
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,240
Speaker 1: that when a lot of those mission statements were written, again,

981
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: Jim Crow was in place, So what were they actually thinking?

982
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: Who were they talking about? Who is the wee right

983
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: in that, you know, to understand that everybody in that

984
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: we can operate in the same way, doesn't have the

985
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: same choice. So if we jump ahead and understand why

986
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: we don't see a lot of folks of color and

987
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: leadership positions in these organizations, that's no accident. And I'm

988
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: not saying somebody set out intentionally and said we're not

989
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: hiring any block people. What I'm saying is that that's

990
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: what happens over time. Right, you wouldn't see those folks

991
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: sitting around the table because they wouldn't have been invited.

992
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: They weren't part of that um of developing that mission statement.

993
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: You know, how how could they be? Yeah? Yeah, and

994
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: I think we and I know in reading Jonathan Hall's

995
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: article and reading your book, it's like we can be

996
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: in this especially in this world that we live in now.

997
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: We there's certain terms that you light people, like privilege.

998
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: White privilege is one of those times that like, even

999
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: me as a white man, I'm like, don't label me.

1000
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: Come on, man, don't label me with this. You notice

1001
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,479
Speaker 1: how I said privilege, right right? Yeah, So I think

1002
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: like just to address that, like privilege, Like I like

1003
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: that you say privilege, and I just want to make

1004
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: sure because we have terms in our space, in the

1005
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: hunting space like trophy hunting, assault weapon, all these things

1006
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: that kind of like trigger that trigger of feeling. And

1007
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: then somebody turns turns the logical part. Yeah yeah, tol

1008
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: you uh that like they turn you turn off the

1009
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: logical part of your brain. You start to get emotional

1010
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: about what you just heard, having the baggage of what's

1011
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: already been discussed. So it's worth to address that, it is,

1012
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: And so I want to say something about privilege white privilege,

1013
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: and I want to say something about that too. I

1014
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: purposely said because we all do have privilege. And I

1015
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 1: said that in a wide variety of ways, in part

1016
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: because my own intention in doing the work that I

1017
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 1: do in terms of having these conversations is that want

1018
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: to meet people where they are, and what I'm most

1019
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: interested in is our collective capacity to change and being

1020
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: better relationship with each other across our differences. So I'm

1021
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 1: not interested in coming to a room and shutting people down,

1022
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: because I know exactly what those words are. Having said that,

1023
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: it is also important to me when talking about race

1024
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: in this country, whiteness is not a bad thing. So

1025
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: let's nobody can help the skin they were born in,

1026
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,439
Speaker 1: and white white people are diverse as any other group

1027
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: of people. I want to make sure that I say

1028
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: it really clear, and I want to borrow James Baldwin's

1029
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: words to say that whiteness in this country is about

1030
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: power to understand that again, what gave people the right

1031
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: to kill people, to remove them from land in order

1032
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: to get that to enslave a whole another group of people,

1033
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: And none of those people were white, right, And I'm

1034
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: not saying the Irish third groups. I understand those differences,

1035
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: but understand that his country was built. I mean, we

1036
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: had presidents writing the constitutions who had slaves. That's the

1037
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 1: complexity of it, you know, it's complex. It doesn't mean

1038
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: that Thomas Jefferson was an awful human being, but it

1039
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: means he's complicated because he actually felt it was okay

1040
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: to have people as slaves. That we have to consider that,

1041
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: We have to consider that. And so white privilege is

1042
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 1: meant to signify that whiteness when you when things when

1043
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: we use the word normal when we talk about this

1044
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: is the normal thing to do, to be able to

1045
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,439
Speaker 1: say where whiteness is at the center of that, and

1046
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: how whiteness as power right, not the individual, but as

1047
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: power is colored no pun intended. Everything you know, from

1048
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: the language we use to the kind of what we

1049
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: say is right and wrong. What we say is when

1050
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: we talk about morality, all of it, what we have

1051
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: what becomes privileged in that means that everybody else who

1052
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: is not white, who doesn't identify as white, comes up

1053
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: against that all the time and historically has come up

1054
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: against it all the time. So that's really what white

1055
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: privileged means. It doesn't mean that your whiteness is bad.

1056
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,919
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that you are bad. You can't help

1057
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: the skin. You were born in a right any more

1058
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: than I can. And in this country, whiteness has been privileged.

1059
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: I don't this isn't this isn't an opinion. Actually it

1060
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: is a fact. And all you have to do is

1061
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: look look at the history of understanding how it has

1062
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: been privileged over time. It's privileged in terms of beauty,

1063
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: what we I mean, it is privileged on so many levels.

1064
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: And so how do we how do we contend with that?

1065
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: That's the reconciliation, not It's not about making it bad.

1066
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in oppressing anybody. So I'm interested in

1067
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: but how do we own how we own our collective path,

1068
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: which I believe we are all complicit in that, And

1069
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: that is like to call for that is slutely appropriate

1070
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 1: in every way, and like calling for that in this

1071
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: in this day, and it's seems to make people uncomfortable.

1072
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: And I know and I know that Jonathan Hall and

1073
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 1: his writing is talking about, like can we have conversation

1074
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: about what justice looks like in the aftermath of genocide

1075
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: and anti black violence? And we talk about this and

1076
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: in like feeling welcome on public lands and what it

1077
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,479
Speaker 1: really is. And he said the answer from the hunting

1078
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: community has been a definitely loud but silent no. And

1079
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: I don't I see his his. I don't know that

1080
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: this has been collectively thought about or talked about enough.

1081
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: I don't know that there's been a no. There just

1082
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: hasn't been a push to be like there has been

1083
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 1: a push to say, we want a more diverse hunting community.

1084
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: We want more people to come and experience this thing

1085
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: that we think makes our lives better. We want them

1086
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: to get their food in this way. But we're just

1087
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: not sure how to do it, and we don't know

1088
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: how to have the conversation about the past because it's

1089
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: it gets a little scary. Yeah, and that is right

1090
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: on point. So because I work with so many UM organizations,

1091
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: predominantly white organizations that are around environment. Sometimes it's nonprofits.

1092
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: I mean, there's it's gotten so diverse now that people

1093
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: who call me in and this is something that I've

1094
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: heard them say almost exactly the way you just said it,

1095
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: which is we're not saying no, what we we just

1096
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: don't know how to do it, And and it's kind

1097
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: of scary to kind of come to this and I'm like,

1098
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: that's real. I get that, and I want to also

1099
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: saying I'm not speaking for Jonathan. I'm just saying that

1100
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: there is UM. One of the things that can be

1101
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: frustrating for those of us like myself we've been doing

1102
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: this for a while, is that that how can I

1103
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 1: put this, There's a way within which we're not seeing

1104
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: anything change. So when you understand that, you've heard people

1105
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: say that for years and nothing's really changing on the surface.

1106
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: There's not any new leadership of color. There are there

1107
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: not any um real attempt said, so let me let

1108
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: me come at it in a different way if if

1109
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 1: you want to do something really different. And I always

1110
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: say this to people, this is not about being comfortable, right,

1111
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: there's nothing in this conversation that it's about being comfortable.

1112
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: That is not nor should be. I believe the goal

1113
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: Uh if you think about there are so many of

1114
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: us who have never been comfortable. UM. But I often

1115
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: used an example and you may have heard it or

1116
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: I might have written it somewhere that a couple of

1117
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: years ago, when speed Lana Lazyevich won the Nobel Prize

1118
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: for her working on Chernobyl and she's from Belarus and

1119
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: I heard her on NPR and one of the things

1120
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: that the person on NBR was saying to her, Michelle Martin,

1121
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: was saying, you know, you made a lot of people

1122
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: uncomfortable because a lot of her people in Belarus were

1123
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: mad at her. It's like she exposed the dirty laundry about,

1124
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: you know, how the government was at fault and what

1125
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: the problems were and why Chernoble happened. And she basically responded,

1126
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: she said, I'm not interested in my people being comfortable.

1127
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: I love my people. I want them to be better.

1128
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: And so there's something about how do we shift the

1129
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: thinking from you know, we're all uncomfortable, that's come on board,

1130
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: that's really and that's when you start to build a

1131
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: kind of trust and a relationship, you know, and we

1132
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: can really start to get real about where we all

1133
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: are at, what we're saying we collectively want, and deciding

1134
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: what we're willing to actively do. Because I always say

1135
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: to people, this is about taking risks, and not risks

1136
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: in order not to lose something you already have. It's

1137
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: about you take a risk in order to gain something

1138
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: that you're saying you want. And that's a gamble, which

1139
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: means you have one. A person has to put themselves

1140
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: out there knowing that, oh my god, I might say

1141
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, I might do this thing in the

1142
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: wrong way. It's it's talking about it may be a

1143
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: letting go of some of those when you want a

1144
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: person I'm not using putting anything in front of it

1145
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: has had a privilege for a long time in terms

1146
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: around the question and the power of being able to

1147
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 1: stand in a position. Now hard it is to get

1148
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: that person to give any of that up. Yeah, and

1149
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: so how they can say and I recognize that as

1150
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: as a human being, Like, it's just you know, those

1151
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: who believe and have worked hard for what they've got.

1152
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: You know, I think about my father. He worked hard

1153
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: his entire life. He came from pretty much nothing, you know,

1154
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: high school education, fought in the Korean War. Um loves

1155
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: his guns. Can't even talk to that man about his guns. Yeah, Yeah,

1156
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: he's a little you know, I'm his daughter, so you know,

1157
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: but he's got Alzheimer's now, and so it's it's kind

1158
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: of sad to watch the loops and the sort of

1159
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: the decline in the perfect in a certain way. Uh,

1160
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: but there's something the anger that he is held against.

1161
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: How I've watched him over the years when I was younger,

1162
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: just how he's had to always feel like he's had

1163
00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: to fight and for everything always it's about even just

1164
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: his presence somewhere and the strategy and the ducking and weaving,

1165
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,479
Speaker 1: and had to have the lack of acknowledgement for for

1166
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: who he is and what he's done and what he's sacrificed.

1167
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: Even coming back from the Korean worry. Talked about that

1168
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: being black and not getting veterans benefits like the whole

1169
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: nine yards, when you've had to live with that your

1170
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 1: entire life, no matter how hard you worked, no matter

1171
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: how much you've made quote unquote the right choices to

1172
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: support your family. And he's one of thousands you know

1173
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: who have had that experience and continue to have that. Yeah,

1174
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: when you explain when you're just talking about taking a

1175
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: gamble to have this conversation, I was like, yeah, yeah,

1176
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: that's how I feel. I was like to me, I

1177
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: felt like, this is even having this conversation in the

1178
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: public forum as a gamble. But but then when you

1179
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: can relate it to somebody like your dad, and I

1180
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: want you to I want to get to your kind

1181
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: of story going up, because I think in your book

1182
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 1: and another places really touched on it's important. Um, but

1183
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: it feels like a gamble because you're just not sure

1184
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: if you're gonna say the wrong thing. And then our

1185
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: incredibly woke internet outrage world, like you're kind of everybody's

1186
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: walking on a tight rope, especially in these stances. But here,

1187
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: here's where I start and end the conversation. For me personally,

1188
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm like African Americans make of the U S population.

1189
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: They by all accounts, they they make up less than

1190
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: two percent of American hunters. Like, so if I'm if

1191
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: I'm addressing how to make hunting better, I want them

1192
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: and I want them in this very confusing, very fraught

1193
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: historical boat with me to go and explore these things

1194
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: I wanted. I want them in. And so if I

1195
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: gotta like gamble a little bit and take some chances

1196
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: with this conversation and get to those places, That's what

1197
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: I want to do because I think it'll mean something

1198
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: in the end. Um and kend yes, yes, and a

1199
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: few things I want to say in one And this

1200
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: is not um touting my own blowing my own horn.

1201
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: This is just in part to make the point every

1202
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 1: this is what I do day in and day out

1203
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: of my I move based on work doing this every

1204
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: time I enter into the conversation, I had to I'm

1205
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: taking a risk. It makes me nervous like you because

1206
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: in the social in the day of social media people,

1207
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: and it's already happened to me. I mean I can

1208
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: a few A number of years ago, I was in

1209
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: California and somebody I knew from high school who I

1210
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: hadn't talked to in Eaters, suddenly sent me through Facebook.

1211
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: She said, I'm sitting in the back of a cab

1212
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: in New York City and the cab driver has the

1213
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: Rush Limboss show on, and they just were talking about

1214
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: how crazy you are because you said trees are racist.

1215
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: I never said that that's crazy, But but you know

1216
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: what I had to get off Twitter for and I

1217
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: don't even do I don't I'm not even on it.

1218
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: But at the time I said, I couldn't look at

1219
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: it because I was getting the nastiest, meanest emails, one

1220
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: person even saying I'm sorry I have to share this

1221
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 1: earth with you. It was and I don't have thick

1222
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: skin like it says like that hurt. I'm a human being.

1223
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: It really hurt and I said, my god, I don't

1224
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: even know who these are, Like how that's not even

1225
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: what I said. So yeah, I'm taking a risk every

1226
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 1: single time, and there's a lot of emotional labor. But

1227
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: it's also because I believe in something that that our

1228
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,439
Speaker 1: capacity is human beings to be better than we are

1229
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: and being better relationship with each other without having to

1230
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: become who the other person is, because for me, it's

1231
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: not about assimilation. It's about just how we get better

1232
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: at respectfully, you know, recognizing a person's difference, because that's

1233
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: you know, this conversation. Anything can emerge from this and

1234
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:33,919
Speaker 1: we have no idea knowing what that is. And that's

1235
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 1: the beauty of it, especially when having these conversations about

1236
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: how we can do these things differently and how we

1237
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: can show up differently. So the risk. The risk is

1238
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:46,439
Speaker 1: also about uh, yes, you could say the wrong thing.

1239
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: Number one. I want to say, It's not like I've

1240
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: gone through my life and never not said the wrong

1241
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: things that went through. No, it's not. And I've replace

1242
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: those moments in my head all the time. Right, I

1243
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: can't even believe. I can't believe it. For me, it's

1244
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: how do you show up after you do that? That's

1245
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: the moment, knowing that you may be rejected, that somebody

1246
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: might be mad at you. How do you still show up?

1247
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 1: How do you How are you accountable for that? How

1248
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 1: are we all accountable? And for me, I'm not interested

1249
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: in I mean, one of the biggest challenges I'm having

1250
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: with our popular culture right now is that if we

1251
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: see someone, you know, in an effort to show that

1252
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: we're woke, and I say that in quotes, if we

1253
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: see that someone has um this black people, this women,

1254
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: whatever the thing is that we've done in our past,

1255
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, we shut them out. They're out, they're done.

1256
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 1: We're done with them forever. So there's no opportunity. And

1257
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: I'm saying that whatever they've done, they should be held accountable.

1258
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: But it's not about, you know, leaving them out in

1259
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: the cold, because if we start doing that, pretty much

1260
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: everybody is going to be out in the cold. Because

1261
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: I really don't know anyone who hasn't made a mistake,

1262
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: said something hurtful, done something hurtful, either consciously or unconsciously.

1263
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 1: So how do we bring people back in? So I'm

1264
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: always saying, yeah, you know what you're right, you might

1265
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: say it in the wrong way and the other person

1266
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: will let you know. Then how do you show up?

1267
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: That's how trust gets built. Yeah, there's a little bit

1268
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: of a power dynamic. They're like who gets to decide,

1269
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: who gets to decide who says what in the wrong way?

1270
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: Who gets to decide you know, when this outrages is appropriate,

1271
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: when it's not, Like I think your question around, how

1272
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: do we have this conversation in a way that makes

1273
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 1: the outdoors hunting whatever outdoor activity doesn't really matter just

1274
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: in this case and my my experience hunting is my

1275
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 1: favorite part of it. But doesn't that how we know

1276
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 1: the facts? Right? We know that less people do it.

1277
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: We know there's this uh sort of history around this

1278
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: stuff that we don't like to talk about. But in

1279
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 1: the more modern I want to maybe walk back this

1280
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: a little bit in a while. But I like, in

1281
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: the more modern sense, if you you know, would have

1282
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 1: to address this and say, like, there's less and two

1283
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: percent of American hunters are African American. And even your book,

1284
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: you know, the in the title Reimagining the Relationship of

1285
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: African Americans and the Outdoors. If we were to reimagine

1286
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: African Americans relationship with hunting, or let's just just make

1287
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: it broad hunting, fishing, hiking, climbing. How do you how

1288
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: do you think about that? How do you begin to

1289
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: think about that? Well? And so partly you know and

1290
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 1: you will know this, But I the reason I was

1291
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: drawn to write the book. It was not because you know,

1292
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: I was in academia and that I had to write

1293
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: a book. That wasn't it at all. It was just

1294
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: it was incredibly personal for me. It was personal when

1295
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: I realized, Um, you know, I grew up half an

1296
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: hour outside of New York City on land that didn't

1297
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: belong to us. It was owned by a very wealthy

1298
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: Jewish family that I had twelve beakers of land and

1299
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 1: then at full time caretakers on that property. And so

1300
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 1: my parents were the caretakers for that property for nearly

1301
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: fifty years. And it has woods and wildlife and a

1302
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: lake and a swimming pool, studied piece of property. We

1303
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 1: lived in the gardener's cottage in a very wealthy white neighborhood.

1304
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 1: We were the only family of color in that neighborhood.

1305
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: And towards the end of the nineties, when um both

1306
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: the owners one had already died. The other got very sick,

1307
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 1: and the question was what's going to happen with my

1308
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: family because they now they've been on this land for

1309
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: so long, and she, the original owner, wanted to try

1310
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 1: to keep them on the property. I have to say,

1311
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: but there was no way. The property was worth over

1312
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 1: three million dollars, the property taxes were honored five dollars

1313
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 1: a year. There was no way my parents could stay on.

1314
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: So she had a house built for them in Leesburg, Virginia,

1315
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: and she passed away. A new owner came on. My

1316
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: parents stayed on for another five seventy years until they

1317
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: found a new family to move in, and then nearly

1318
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: two thousand's they moved to Virginia. Now, when they moved

1319
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: to Virginia, beautiful house, not much landed like on a

1320
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 1: half an acre of property. I watched my father in particular,

1321
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 1: get incredibly depressed and he talked a lot about missing

1322
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: the land back in New York. Um. Soon after they moved,

1323
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: they got a copy of a letter from one of

1324
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: their neighbors there in New York who said that a

1325
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: group called the Westchester Conservation Land Trust had put a

1326
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 1: conservation easement on that piece of land that I grew

1327
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 1: up on and in the letter it had all the

1328
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: images that talked about all the wild life on the

1329
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 1: property and all the environmental values of the property and

1330
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: why it needed to be protected, because when you put

1331
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: a conservation easement on a piece of land, that means

1332
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: in perpetuity, nothing can be changed on that piece of land.

1333
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 1: At the end of the letter, which I have a

1334
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:35,520
Speaker 1: copy of, it thanked the new owner for his conservation mindedness.

1335
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 1: The new owner had been on there maybe three years.

1336
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 1: There was nothing in the letter acknowledging my parents who

1337
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,600
Speaker 1: had cared for that land for fifty years, and just

1338
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 1: that fact they got erased. And that's you know. I

1339
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 1: had gone back to school. I was working on my

1340
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 1: doctor and I was looking at issues around environment. I

1341
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: was focused on women a little bit more than more

1342
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: than anything. At that particular time, I was doing work

1343
01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: in Nepal and I started realizing and you know, asking

1344
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: the question whose ownership counts, Like how fast my parents

1345
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: got a race? And then I started thinking about the

1346
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: history of the country and all the people we don't see,

1347
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 1: you know, all particularly folks of color that are always

1348
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: been there on the land, caring for engaging with it. Hunting, fishing,

1349
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 1: doing all those things, but they're not part of the

1350
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: bigger story. We're not talking it. It's like we just

1351
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: don't see them. And then it kind of rolls into

1352
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 1: this myth such as black people don't know, they don't

1353
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: do these sort of things. They don't hike, they don't camp,

1354
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 1: they don't hunt, whatever it is. And actually none of

1355
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 1: that is true, right. It actually comes back to what

1356
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: we we haven't This is not what we're taught in school.

1357
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: These aren't the stories we see on television. This aren't

1358
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: the stories we read in the books. And so that's

1359
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 1: why I wanted to reimagine it. I wasn't saying that

1360
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: so much for African Americans necessarily, here's all the things

1361
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 1: you can do, though that's in there a little bit.

1362
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 1: I was actually saying to everyone else, actually, we've always

1363
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 1: been here doing it. So how do we consider of that,

1364
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 1: you know? And that's why I wanted to talk to

1365
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 1: black people around the country and say, tell me your story.

1366
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 1: What's your environmental story, like what what's the experience of

1367
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: your grandparents, Like, what do you where did you grow up,

1368
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 1: what were you doing in the outdoors? And some of

1369
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 1: the folks would say to me, you know, I don't

1370
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: have an environmental story, and I'm like, of course you do.

1371
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: Everyone does. If you're breathing, you've got one. It doesn't

1372
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:23,559
Speaker 1: matter if you lived in the city, if you lived

1373
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: in a rural area. And then they would spill out

1374
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 1: sometimes with incredible stories. You know. I found myself sitting

1375
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,560
Speaker 1: in the trailer of one of the Tuskegee airmen and

1376
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: Ford who had worked in agriculture before. I mean, I

1377
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: was meeting the people. Of course they have these amazing stories,

1378
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: and that's what I wanted to reimagine was actually, there

1379
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: is this full, rich relationship there, but it butts up

1380
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:51,679
Speaker 1: against the history. Um and when that history that hasn't

1381
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 1: invited it in, right, So now we're here. That's why

1382
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:59,600
Speaker 1: you've got all these organizations formed, these cultures. You know,

1383
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 1: culture will practices around, whether it's hunting, whether it's hiking

1384
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:10,040
Speaker 1: or mountain climbing, whatever it is, that have privileged particular

1385
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: experience and perspective. And there's nothing wrong with that experience

1386
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: or perspective, but it's been privileged as though nothing else

1387
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 1: actually exists. Yeah, and that's hugely like when I was

1388
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:23,679
Speaker 1: reading your stuff and thinking about this and I thought

1389
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: about this a lot. I was probably sitting by myself

1390
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 1: on the couch at home, like sweating, thinking about just

1391
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: being honest. Um, But like, the relationship to place is

1392
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: something that struck me because when I think about my

1393
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 1: relationship to the place and the people around me, I

1394
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 1: have this like it's not pure relationship to place, but

1395
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: it certainly is. It's what I feel like a more

1396
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: comfortable relationship to a place because I can look at Oh,

1397
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir, Um and Gifford pin Show and

1398
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: all the all these folks. I can look at them,

1399
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: and I can realize them, and I can kind of

1400
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 1: trace the lineage there, and I can look at all

1401
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: these things in a fairly pragmatic way. We talk about

1402
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:09,720
Speaker 1: our model of conservation on this show quite a lot, um,

1403
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:13,719
Speaker 1: and and and the folks that that form that model

1404
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: of conservation, and even the folks that then articulated many

1405
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 1: decades later. Um, we're all white and all came from

1406
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: a place of power and privilege. Um. And that all

1407
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 1: comes back to, like you talk about relationship to place

1408
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: and how our ethnicity influences the way we see places.

1409
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that struck me the most is

1410
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: like thinking about how is my ethnicity and my upbringing,

1411
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 1: what I've done effect the way I see places the

1412
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: outdoors specifically in this conversation. Can you just go through

1413
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 1: that a little bit for people and try to make

1414
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:53,400
Speaker 1: them understand in the way that I was able to? Um,

1415
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,520
Speaker 1: I can't, I will say, I can't make them understand

1416
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,040
Speaker 1: I can. That is that is the only point of

1417
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 1: this is just let's invite folks to consider some things.

1418
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 1: Maybe they yes, yes, um, So I want to start,

1419
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, when you start talking about President Roosevelt and

1420
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,560
Speaker 1: John Mushor and often when i'm you know, one of

1421
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 1: the things I do is I put up a slide

1422
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: that has a collage that I put together a collage

1423
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: of images, so everything something from Japanese and German and

1424
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: American Indians and immigrants at the border and slavery. And

1425
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 1: then right in the middle, I put there's a famous

1426
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 1: picture of President Roosevelt with John Muir on on overhanging

1427
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 1: rock in Yosemite. It's nineteen three, and I put that

1428
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 1: right in the middle. And then I put another picture

1429
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 1: of give give pin show um off to the side,

1430
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 1: and I talk about I say, you know, those two men,

1431
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 1: Roosevelt and Mure. I imagine they're having an amazing conversation.

1432
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: There was thinking really seriously about ideas of wilderness. How

1433
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,440
Speaker 1: are we as Americans going to engage and protect this wilderness?

1434
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: And that's really great. If you also read the writings

1435
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: of John Muir, which I have as well as Roosevelt,

1436
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 1: it makes them complicated because John Muir did not have

1437
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 1: nice things to say about black people in his own words, um,

1438
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:10,759
Speaker 1: not a lot of nice things to say about American

1439
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: Indians either. And Roosevelt was also he talked about he

1440
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 1: taught in his words, he said, um, basically that you know,

1441
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 1: the white Americans, white race were the higher rates and

1442
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 1: that had responsibility. I mean, that's the complexity. So if

1443
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 1: we are going to embrace that, we want to love

1444
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: and uphold John your Roosevelt. We can't pick and choose

1445
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 1: what parts of their personality are they're thinking we want

1446
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: to use for that. I think that's disingenuous. We actually

1447
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:43,640
Speaker 1: have to just guess what they were. Smart, um, powerful

1448
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,600
Speaker 1: man who had some really good ideas and in conservation

1449
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 1: be coop. I mean, there were some good ideas up

1450
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: in there. All those ideas were some good ideas and

1451
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: guess what they had some if I'm gonna be gentle

1452
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: about it, prejudices, But you know, they were also had

1453
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 1: some racist ideas that in part came from their own

1454
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 1: privilege that they could actually hold those perspectives at the

1455
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 1: same time that they could talk about nature and wilderness

1456
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 1: in the way that they did with such love and respect.

1457
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 1: They had such love and respect for nature, but they

1458
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 1: did not have that for all their fellow human beings.

1459
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: That that's just what it is. And so what you know,

1460
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 1: and if you're one of those human beings, you're looking

1461
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 1: at that going oh, okay, well where am I in

1462
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 1: that equation? What does that mean for me? And I

1463
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 1: always say, you know, there's things that I'm working on

1464
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,879
Speaker 1: a one woman show that I imagine myself in conversation

1465
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: with John Muir, And a lot of this is that

1466
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: because I want to think about and show people to

1467
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:47,160
Speaker 1: understand I don't have to diminish John Muir to make myself,

1468
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 1: you know, count more. I actually don't want to do that.

1469
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: You know. The point I want to make is he

1470
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 1: becomes relevant on my terms. He doesn't become irrelevant. He's

1471
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 1: not irrelevant. I'm part of this country's history. Um, he's

1472
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 1: had such a would impact on the way we think

1473
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:05,719
Speaker 1: about wilderness. Uh, of course he's relevant. But he becomes

1474
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: relevant on my terms because I have to do that

1475
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 1: because I wasn't relevant on his terms. Yeah, this, all

1476
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 1: this is all connects, Like the relatancy of all this

1477
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 1: and the complications all this, it connects. Last show we

1478
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 1: were talking about as funny as it won't really relate

1479
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 1: to this intangible terms, But in intangible terms, we were

1480
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 1: talking about how we eat meat and regenerative agriculture and

1481
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: different things like that. So we're getting into consumption and

1482
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: within consumption like, well, it's much easier for folks to

1483
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 1: just eat the meat and not really worry about where

1484
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 1: it came from or just kind of have the ornamental

1485
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: understanding of like, oh, it's it's organic. Somebody told me

1486
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,880
Speaker 1: it's that's fun like not to have to worry about

1487
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 1: the complicated nature and the complicated history behind how we

1488
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 1: eat our food and how we got to where we are,

1489
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 1: and this there's parallels here. It's easier for me to

1490
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:55,519
Speaker 1: go outside and enjoy these things and celebrate tell you Roosevelt,

1491
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 1: and celebrate John Muir and these figures who are important.

1492
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 1: It's easier for me to to do that without having

1493
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 1: the stomach all the other realities that are there, um,

1494
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 1: because it's it's much easier for me to do and

1495
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 1: it's more simple. It makes it makes all these ideas

1496
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 1: um easier to digest. And it strikes me that that

1497
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: parallels it's yes, it's crazy. Yes, And I want to

1498
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:24,519
Speaker 1: say that this is that at that point, that point

1499
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 1: that you just um described of, uh, you know that

1500
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: point of it's easier when I heard you say it's

1501
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:35,720
Speaker 1: easier to actually just embrace them, you know, embrace that

1502
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: part of them that we know, not that other stuff

1503
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,599
Speaker 1: which is ugly and hard. That's actually the point where

1504
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 1: one can begin if one is actually seriously wanting to

1505
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: engage hunters, in this case, uh, black hunters in a

1506
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 1: different and meaningful way, because that's actually the point. You

1507
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,559
Speaker 1: can't have one without the other, because the black hunter

1508
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 1: knows he or she can't have one without the other.

1509
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 1: Like you know, I can't come in there, and I can,

1510
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,320
Speaker 1: I can try, I'd have to work really hard at

1511
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: shutting out that reality. Um. But what an interesting place

1512
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 1: to start. That's why it's uncomfortable, right to say, to

1513
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 1: go oh my god. So there's things about Mirror that

1514
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: are really funky. There's things about Roosevelt that we're really

1515
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 1: funky around this. Let's talk about that. Let's understand how

1516
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,800
Speaker 1: is that manifested in the way that we act with

1517
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: each other today. How does that show up? What does

1518
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,599
Speaker 1: that mean? What can I How can I embrace that differently?

1519
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 1: Can I embrace that differently? Do I want to? I mean,

1520
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: the conversation and opens wide and and a kind of

1521
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,800
Speaker 1: trust gets developed just when people are willing to say,

1522
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 1: holy crap, you know that is really you know, that's overwhelming.

1523
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm willing to stand with it. Let's stand

1524
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: with it. Let's sit with it for a while and

1525
01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:54,439
Speaker 1: see what happens. And you call it like you like

1526
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 1: the aim of your work, you says, develop a greater

1527
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: cultural competency. And I found that work. I found to

1528
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, hell yeah, let's all do that. Let's

1529
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 1: make sure that we're doing that. And if if that's

1530
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,519
Speaker 1: the way somebody who's you've kind of lived your life

1531
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 1: in this way and really been able to see kind

1532
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:15,000
Speaker 1: of the outdoors even from the way that our government

1533
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 1: treats the outdoors from sitting on the National Park Suvisory Board.

1534
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you were at UC Berkeley for a time,

1535
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: You've traveled the world. There's all these things that you've done.

1536
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: If if you're telling me that the way to speak

1537
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,400
Speaker 1: about this and have a positive impact for the people

1538
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 1: that are really feeling it is to develop a greater

1539
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 1: cultural compecy, like let's go I'm in Yes, I'll do

1540
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:37,519
Speaker 1: that anytime. And I'm and I would say to your

1541
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,560
Speaker 1: listeners that you don't have to go to school for this.

1542
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 1: It's not like you suddenly have to read a ton

1543
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 1: of books. One of the things I would always say

1544
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 1: to folks, um is like what is your environmental story?

1545
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:51,920
Speaker 1: The first the first piece of work we all have

1546
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 1: to do is our own internal assessment. And this is

1547
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:57,640
Speaker 1: when you gotta get real with where you stand, your

1548
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:00,800
Speaker 1: own biases, on your own experience. You don't have to

1549
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 1: apologize for your life. That's not what I'm saying here.

1550
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:06,639
Speaker 1: People often interpret it that way. That's a huge point,

1551
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 1: huge point like let's not get into this like I'm

1552
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:13,479
Speaker 1: not sorry for who I am or whatever. No, right,

1553
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,639
Speaker 1: you're we're where we are, here we are and there's

1554
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 1: a certain amount of um understanding your environment a story

1555
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 1: if you kind of define what that is, because only

1556
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 1: you can do that for yourself, and and really start

1557
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,599
Speaker 1: to understand how some of those things in some ways

1558
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 1: became possible because of the space of who you are

1559
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 1: and how that privilege operated. It doesn't mean you worked

1560
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 1: any less hard than anybody else, right, But this whole

1561
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:43,639
Speaker 1: idea of pull yourself up by your bootstraps, that's why

1562
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,600
Speaker 1: so many of us rail against that because that assumes

1563
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 1: that everybody started from the same place in the starting line.

1564
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,599
Speaker 1: And they didn't. I mean, you know, they just simply didn't.

1565
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 1: And I don't have to. You just gotta look at

1566
01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 1: the history, right, It's hard to start from the same

1567
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 1: place in the starting line. If you were your ancestors

1568
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 1: were enslaved, and then you were Jim Crow, you were

1569
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: told there are places you couldn't be and go and

1570
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: you're still getting everything from redlining to shot in your

1571
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:14,280
Speaker 1: own home. Is hard to really buy that argument, you know,

1572
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:18,719
Speaker 1: And understanding again, black people are diverse. You have wealthy

1573
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:21,560
Speaker 1: black people people with all types of privilege within that.

1574
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 1: So I don't want to deny that um. And we

1575
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 1: are still having this conversation in the United States of

1576
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 1: America in twenty nineteen. That's no accident. You were a

1577
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: generation away. My dad was was there when he was

1578
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 1: telling me a story. I remember when black people just

1579
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 1: started going up at our high school. I'm like, we're

1580
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 1: generating away from this stuff. We're not so far removed

1581
01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 1: that we can write it off as some sort of

1582
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: historical thing that we've overcome. There's no way that like,

1583
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:51,720
Speaker 1: that's a silly that's a silly state. Well, you can

1584
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:54,280
Speaker 1: look at all of our institutions, all of them, so

1585
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:57,639
Speaker 1: whether they're political academic, you look at all of our

1586
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 1: institutions and start to understand and where's the money, where's

1587
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:05,479
Speaker 1: the capital. There was an article um that came out

1588
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:09,080
Speaker 1: I saw online that looked at how much of land

1589
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:11,719
Speaker 1: is privately owned in this country and all the families

1590
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:14,800
Speaker 1: that own that land, and that you can you look

1591
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:18,479
Speaker 1: it up and say who where the large the largest

1592
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 1: families are in terms of own most of the land

1593
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:23,600
Speaker 1: in this country. I mean, you just there. There's a

1594
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 1: hundred places you can go and you're gonna come up

1595
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 1: with the same answer and understanding how privilege operates around

1596
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:37,560
Speaker 1: this conversation because historically there are people who benefited and

1597
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 1: there are people who have not benefited through no fault

1598
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,360
Speaker 1: on either side in terms of how they were born

1599
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 1: into the world. Nobody can help that. Nobody can help

1600
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:48,600
Speaker 1: the color of their skin. And there's a way with

1601
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,320
Speaker 1: with legislation, with cultural practices, with education, all of it.

1602
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:57,639
Speaker 1: Um has geared itself towards a certain what a certain

1603
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: color of the skin, and not the other. Like I'm

1604
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 1: being really simplistic, but just to make the point, and

1605
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: so um, and what do we do about that? How

1606
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 1: is that reconciled? How do we build up trust between

1607
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 1: each other? You know, to build up trust in any

1608
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 1: kind of if I'm making a new friend or if

1609
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: I'm working with somebody a new colleague, Trust in part

1610
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,360
Speaker 1: comes from how much I'm able to show one that

1611
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 1: I'm open to you know who you are and how

1612
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 1: you show up. But I also have to believe that

1613
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 1: you can stand with me and have my back, Which

1614
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you always have to agree with me. There's

1615
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 1: not the same thing, but it means that means you're

1616
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:35,679
Speaker 1: able to see who I am. So I was telling

1617
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:39,760
Speaker 1: from students yesterday, I said, you know, um, I said,

1618
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 1: what was Especially when I was younger, it would be

1619
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:44,200
Speaker 1: so interesting when some of my white friends would look

1620
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 1: at me and say, but I don't see the color

1621
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 1: of your skin. I knew that the heart of what that,

1622
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 1: what they were trying to say to me was you're human.

1623
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:55,120
Speaker 1: I love you anyway. But it also made me angry

1624
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 1: because I was like, if you don't see the color

1625
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,040
Speaker 1: of my skin, then you actually don't really understand some

1626
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 1: of the challenges I might be having in the world

1627
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:05,879
Speaker 1: in comparison to you. Yeah, well that's that's a deflection,

1628
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 1: right too. You're just like, I don't see the color

1629
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:09,240
Speaker 1: you're skin, because if I see it, then I got

1630
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:12,160
Speaker 1: to talk about some ship I don't want to talk

1631
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: about exactly. I would rather someone say, oh, you know,

1632
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 1: I I do see that, and I don't know how

1633
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:22,439
Speaker 1: to talk about what to say about that, because that's real.

1634
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 1: Then it's like, well I could work with that. Well

1635
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:26,600
Speaker 1: you wrote, you wrote something in the book. I just

1636
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:28,560
Speaker 1: really like trying to think of ways to get through this.

1637
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:32,080
Speaker 1: She said, fashion new narratives that are inclusive and reflective

1638
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 1: of our past and offer new possibilities by expressing acknowledging

1639
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: the complexit of our stories and the meanings we attached

1640
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:39,760
Speaker 1: to them. And I was like, well, if we're gonna

1641
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 1: kind of sum up this part of the conversation, I

1642
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 1: think it's that right if we're able to say, folks

1643
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,280
Speaker 1: like I'm willing to do that, let's do that. Let's

1644
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: acknowledge this and then move on, like know that there's

1645
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 1: meaning attached to who you are and where you come from,

1646
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:56,160
Speaker 1: more from those that are pressed and those that haven't

1647
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 1: necessarily been, and we can move on from that. We

1648
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:00,720
Speaker 1: don't have to flame up. And we said, okay, now

1649
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:03,280
Speaker 1: we understand each other, what do we do next? You know,

1650
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 1: what's the next move here? And I think that can

1651
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,840
Speaker 1: be powerful, yes, and and I just want to underscore

1652
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 1: that before we can move on. That's a lot of

1653
01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 1: work we have. I don't want to be really because

1654
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 1: we got it, we did it, and we're not getting

1655
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 1: the kumbay on any real way until we've spent some

1656
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 1: time doing all that work, you know, to fashion those

1657
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 1: new narratives. Yes, so what like if if you were

1658
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:31,759
Speaker 1: to if we go back to ka public lands, national parks,

1659
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 1: those type of spaces being this great equalizer you know,

1660
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:37,880
Speaker 1: we often talk about them being when when people ask like,

1661
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 1: why are you an advocate for public lands? I go,

1662
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 1: I have a son, and I want my son to

1663
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 1: understand this type of freedom, to understand this is an

1664
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 1: American ideal. It's something that we've built that many many

1665
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 1: nations around the world just do not have. So it's

1666
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 1: it's unique to this country. Then you flip that on

1667
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 1: your head and be like, Okay, that's available to UH

1668
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 1: African Americans of all shapes and sizes. Um, they can

1669
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 1: go there, they can experience it in just the way

1670
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:08,360
Speaker 1: that I might go there. Um, why aren't they you know,

1671
01:26:08,439 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: it's I think it was a seven percent of folks

1672
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 1: at Vision National Parks are African American. Yeah, and so

1673
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,760
Speaker 1: we should just be explicit and say, like, why in

1674
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: the modern sense aren't they there? I guess I could

1675
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,720
Speaker 1: make I could make assumptions like it's economics, but what

1676
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 1: you know, can you kind of calculate that for people?

1677
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,400
Speaker 1: And I want to be clear, of course, I'm not

1678
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 1: speaking for all African Americans, and you know I've done

1679
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 1: I'm just a white guy with the podcast too, So right,

1680
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: so I want to say that, Um, you know, so

1681
01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 1: system So about maybe three or four weeks ago. Um,

1682
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 1: I get emails sometimes from people I've never met, which

1683
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: is great and It was a man who identified himself.

1684
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:53,559
Speaker 1: He that he was white, that he worked in public

1685
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:56,720
Speaker 1: lands as a manager for public lands, and he had

1686
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 1: come across my book and so he was reading it

1687
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 1: and the email was incredibly respectful. He was having some trouble.

1688
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:07,120
Speaker 1: He was challenged by some of the ideas and he's

1689
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:09,760
Speaker 1: trying to grapple with it. And one of the things

1690
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:13,320
Speaker 1: he said was basically what you just said, which was

1691
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 1: so funny because he said, I you know, in his

1692
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,559
Speaker 1: mind he didn't understand. He got, isn't it just choice

1693
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 1: if you want to come to the public lands? He goes,

1694
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:24,320
Speaker 1: it's for me, every anybody can come that once too.

1695
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:26,920
Speaker 1: It's not anything. And I said, boy, so what he

1696
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:32,200
Speaker 1: really doesn't get is how systemic racism works. And systemic

1697
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:36,680
Speaker 1: racism is racism. And I'm saying racism. I said that

1698
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:41,599
Speaker 1: was too many times, but yeah, that's right. It's embedded.

1699
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 1: Those prejudices are embedded in the way things are set up.

1700
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: I you know, and I have stories and so there's

1701
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 1: a story that I can tell so many stories and

1702
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:55,559
Speaker 1: if people can kind of see what I look like like, uh,

1703
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, you if you look up and see my

1704
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 1: picture and I'm fairly sort of light and medium skinned,

1705
01:28:01,240 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 1: light skinned. Um, I have my whole life been stopped

1706
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:09,160
Speaker 1: by complete strangers on the sidewalks who would just swear

1707
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 1: that I must be mixed and asking me where I'm from,

1708
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 1: especially with my hair. I mean, I dealt with it

1709
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:17,320
Speaker 1: my whole life, getting challenged about, you know, what I

1710
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:19,160
Speaker 1: look like from white people. Let me be really clear

1711
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 1: about that. Black people never do that to me. And

1712
01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, friendly or not, it's kind of invasive to

1713
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:30,720
Speaker 1: be challenged about who are you whe where are you from? UM.

1714
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:33,599
Speaker 1: I lived in the late nineties. I lived in Seattle.

1715
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 1: Love Seattle, right and you know, talk about beautiful outdoors

1716
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:40,640
Speaker 1: with Mount Rainier and Baker and I was it was

1717
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: like a middle of the week. I was walking home.

1718
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 1: I had a tempt shop there for a month, and

1719
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 1: with a whole lot of people, other people at five

1720
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 1: o'clock walking along the street and I was taking the

1721
01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:55,960
Speaker 1: bus back to where I lived there in Seattle, and

1722
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:58,600
Speaker 1: I didn't see where I was going, and there was

1723
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 1: a pothole on the street and I stepped in it. Now,

1724
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 1: I had never fractured a bone or anything before until

1725
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:06,680
Speaker 1: that moment, but you know, when you step It's like

1726
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:09,200
Speaker 1: you hear something and then the next thing, you know,

1727
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:11,680
Speaker 1: your whole body you just like you're gonna black out,

1728
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: the nausea, all of it. Well, this was pre cell

1729
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:17,439
Speaker 1: phone days, right, and I wanted to call my boyfriend

1730
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:19,479
Speaker 1: at the time to come get me. But there's I

1731
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:21,639
Speaker 1: have to find a pay phone, and I can barely walk,

1732
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 1: and I just think I'm gonna pass out. So I'm

1733
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 1: really nervous. I'm gonna pass out in the middle of

1734
01:29:26,160 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 1: the street with my bag. And I make it over

1735
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:31,479
Speaker 1: to the curb and I look up and there what

1736
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 1: There's what looks like a young white family. There's a

1737
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:38,640
Speaker 1: man and a woman, two small kids. And I look up, now,

1738
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:41,280
Speaker 1: remember undressed like I've been in an office all day,

1739
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:44,080
Speaker 1: coming from work. I look up at them and I'm

1740
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:46,400
Speaker 1: starting to cry because I I'm so scared I'm going

1741
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 1: to pass out. And I said, can you help me please?

1742
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:51,759
Speaker 1: I just you know, step I was trying to explain

1743
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 1: what happened, and they moved away from me. Not a

1744
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 1: single person who passed me on the street would help me.

1745
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,760
Speaker 1: Not a single person. I may did to the pay phone.

1746
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 1: Boyfriend came and got me. I just sat on the

1747
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:07,240
Speaker 1: curb there. You know, not a single person. Now you know,

1748
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:09,600
Speaker 1: we can make a hundred excuses why they didn't. But

1749
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:11,840
Speaker 1: when you say I looked for me, I looked like

1750
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:16,519
Speaker 1: everybody else. I was dressed respectfully, I was clean, all

1751
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:19,519
Speaker 1: the things right, I didn't, you know, And not a

1752
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:23,320
Speaker 1: single person in a city that considers itself incredibly progressive

1753
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:27,240
Speaker 1: and woke would help me, right. And I wish I

1754
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 1: could tell you that's the only story I have, but

1755
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 1: it's not. But and it makes the point of saying,

1756
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:37,600
Speaker 1: you know, in my mind, um systemic, something's embedded in

1757
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:40,920
Speaker 1: there and in a cultural consciousness where nobody and you know,

1758
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:43,519
Speaker 1: I've told that story in Seattle when I've been invited,

1759
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, I go back and people they're devastated because

1760
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 1: they're devastated about their own you know, like what we

1761
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:51,720
Speaker 1: didn't have, Like you're so nice and no, and I'm like,

1762
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 1: mm hmmm, I said, but it's really interesting. It doesn't matter. Actually,

1763
01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:00,200
Speaker 1: that's why when you hear stories like um Harvard Um,

1764
01:31:00,479 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: the Harvard professor, the black Harvard professor, Henry Lewis Gates.

1765
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 1: When you heard that story a few years ago where

1766
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 1: he was trying to get into his own house and

1767
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:10,519
Speaker 1: got arrested because the neighbor called the police. Yeah, you know,

1768
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: but there's the Dave Chapelle, the Dave Chappelle's kit or

1769
01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:15,840
Speaker 1: he's like calls the police and they come to his

1770
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:17,559
Speaker 1: house like, oh, he broke in here and hung up

1771
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:21,600
Speaker 1: pictures of his family. Yeah right, that's right right at

1772
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:26,639
Speaker 1: his hysterical and it's also incredibly sad, true, right, That's

1773
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,320
Speaker 1: what makes it so poignant because it's like, oh my god,

1774
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, I mean there's choices I've made in places

1775
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:35,000
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not. I'm an older woman, Like

1776
01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:38,680
Speaker 1: it's crazy, but I had to think twice about it

1777
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 1: because I just don't want to for there to be

1778
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:45,639
Speaker 1: any you know, this interpretation, well, there's like Jonathan Hall,

1779
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 1: I'll probably butscher this. I pull it up and read

1780
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:49,600
Speaker 1: it just from he says he was talking about like

1781
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:53,080
Speaker 1: white people taking justice seriously, which even in itself is

1782
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:55,280
Speaker 1: like gives me the like, I don't know if I'm

1783
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:58,719
Speaker 1: comfortable with with that phrase. But beyond that, he says,

1784
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:01,559
Speaker 1: if until the day comes, until we're able to wrestle

1785
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: with all that we've talked about here, he said, I'm

1786
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 1: gonna avoid public lands where double blaze orange or where

1787
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 1: more orange and drive below the speed limit when my

1788
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 1: firearm is in the car. Yes, I'm like, here's a

1789
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 1: real smart, articulate fella that is feeling this way, man,

1790
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 1: and that sucks, and I gotta like, I gotta figure

1791
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:20,240
Speaker 1: that out. As much as I want to be like, hey, man,

1792
01:32:20,320 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 1: don't don't put this justice thing on me, I gotta

1793
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:25,760
Speaker 1: figure out why he's feeling that way if I want

1794
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 1: to fix it or help, And then I would say

1795
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:31,200
Speaker 1: that the justice thing is on all of us. That

1796
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:34,120
Speaker 1: that's I'm sorry. Justice. There's a quote that I always

1797
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:36,599
Speaker 1: used from Cornell West is that justice is love made

1798
01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 1: public that you know, we don't talk about. But what

1799
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:43,040
Speaker 1: what what we're really saying for me is do I

1800
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:46,640
Speaker 1: love you enough as a fellow human being to do

1801
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 1: what I need to do so that you can show

1802
01:32:49,439 --> 01:32:51,920
Speaker 1: up as your whole self and be who you want

1803
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:54,240
Speaker 1: to be. That's really what it is. People get hung

1804
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 1: up a lot of time with the idea of justice

1805
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,600
Speaker 1: is always about fight and revolution and all of that,

1806
01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 1: and sometimes that's what has to happen. Historically we know that,

1807
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 1: but at its most fundamental sense, it's the ability if

1808
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:09,640
Speaker 1: I was walking down the streets of Seattle and I

1809
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:12,680
Speaker 1: step into a pothole and hurt myself. There should have

1810
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:14,679
Speaker 1: been at least five or ten people who are walking

1811
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:20,360
Speaker 1: past me coming to help me. That's what justice is. Yeah,

1812
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:22,360
Speaker 1: in my own head, I'm like that I would serve

1813
01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:24,639
Speaker 1: you that justice because anybody that I saw on the street,

1814
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:26,639
Speaker 1: I would run over there and I would help them.

1815
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,719
Speaker 1: And I don't understand why someone wouldn't, but it's important

1816
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 1: that I tried to understand why someone wouldn't. And this

1817
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:36,160
Speaker 1: is one of the aspects of That's the thing I'm saying,

1818
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:39,000
Speaker 1: just like I understand what that is. The other the

1819
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 1: other there's a sense of um. You know, when I

1820
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:47,080
Speaker 1: was spending all those years backpacking, you know, I looked

1821
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:49,760
Speaker 1: in my mind like most other backpackers in terms of

1822
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: how I dressed, Right, I had my lonely planet guys.

1823
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:54,599
Speaker 1: I had you know, the khaki pants and the long

1824
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:56,600
Speaker 1: skirt and the T shirt, and you know, I was

1825
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, my hair was different than it is now.

1826
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: But you know, it was just I looked like a

1827
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:05,160
Speaker 1: young woman backpacking around the world, except that I was

1828
01:34:05,400 --> 01:34:08,240
Speaker 1: African American and I almost never saw anybody who looked

1829
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,840
Speaker 1: like me, which meant that when other people saw me backpacking,

1830
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 1: they also never saw anybody who looked like me. And

1831
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:17,280
Speaker 1: it didn't matter that I had all the all the

1832
01:34:17,360 --> 01:34:19,680
Speaker 1: I was giving off all the right cues in terms

1833
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 1: of how I was dressed with my only planet, with

1834
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:24,519
Speaker 1: my auspity backpack. You know, I had all the stuff,

1835
01:34:24,960 --> 01:34:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, all the paraphernalia. And I have to tell you,

1836
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:30,919
Speaker 1: the people who were always most surprised by my presence

1837
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: abroad were other Americans and other Americans who would come

1838
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:37,800
Speaker 1: up to me and say, you know, where are you from?

1839
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:41,799
Speaker 1: Are you from Israel? I got Israel, Brazil, New Zealand,

1840
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:45,160
Speaker 1: And I'm talking. I think I'm incredibly American, incredibly in

1841
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:47,599
Speaker 1: New York, you know so, I think, and I feel

1842
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 1: like at the doing and going dude from New York, like,

1843
01:34:50,200 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 1: how can you not? You're talking to me for a

1844
01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:54,880
Speaker 1: few minutes, and it would be so surprising to them

1845
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:58,800
Speaker 1: to find me there, you know, um, and it wouldn't be.

1846
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:01,240
Speaker 1: It's not that it was a offensive. It's not always

1847
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 1: about it being offensive or rude. Uh though I will

1848
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 1: I do have a story of like an older white

1849
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 1: man who was very well addressed in his outdoor sports

1850
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:12,160
Speaker 1: gear and catman do and we were in a we

1851
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 1: were in a travel agency and he started talking to me,

1852
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:17,439
Speaker 1: you know, like what was I doing there, you know,

1853
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 1: and I'm telling him everything I was doing. Finally he

1854
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,559
Speaker 1: looked at me and said, can I take a picture

1855
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:26,160
Speaker 1: of you? Because I want to show my wife that

1856
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:28,960
Speaker 1: you are actually here. And I you know, I'm a

1857
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 1: very friendly person. But because I realized he was, it

1858
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: was I'd just be been exota sized, like in his eyes,

1859
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:37,920
Speaker 1: I was just unusual like he was. And I looked

1860
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:42,160
Speaker 1: at him and I said five rupees and he thought

1861
01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:43,720
Speaker 1: I was joking. I said no, if yes, if you

1862
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:45,439
Speaker 1: pay me five rupees, you can take my photo. And

1863
01:35:45,479 --> 01:35:47,680
Speaker 1: he didn't and he walked away. But I was so

1864
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh my god, that's so you know,

1865
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm just another human being that happens to be African

1866
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:59,719
Speaker 1: American doing what you're doing here traveling through the country.

1867
01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:03,920
Speaker 1: You know, Um, don't put that on me, like your

1868
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:06,879
Speaker 1: surprise and all that. It's not my job to explain

1869
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 1: myself in that way, as I wouldn't expect you to

1870
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:11,880
Speaker 1: do it, not not in that way. So that's a

1871
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:15,680
Speaker 1: lot of the again, the question of justice, you know,

1872
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 1: beyond whether who you where you vote, or how you

1873
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 1: show up on protests or not that you know people.

1874
01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 1: That's one way right to show just but some of

1875
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 1: it is just the simple, the straightforward every day of

1876
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: when I say, who do we stand with and how

1877
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:33,640
Speaker 1: do we stand with that person? What does it mean

1878
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:36,680
Speaker 1: we're willing to risk? Because it may be at your

1879
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:39,880
Speaker 1: job and maybe when you're out hunting with your your buds,

1880
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and something like this comes up, who's

1881
01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 1: willing to say something and who isn't? And I can't

1882
01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:48,880
Speaker 1: tell you some of the best people are unwilling to

1883
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: say anything because it makes them uncomfortable, and it means

1884
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:54,920
Speaker 1: now they'll they will be potentially risking that friendship there,

1885
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:58,799
Speaker 1: will be potentially risking their job, They'll be potentially risking

1886
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:02,320
Speaker 1: how others perceive of them because they actually said something

1887
01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:06,120
Speaker 1: to about it. And that is a very human reaction.

1888
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 1: And that's really at the bare minimum is asking people

1889
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:13,600
Speaker 1: to say, wow, how different it would be when you know,

1890
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:15,880
Speaker 1: we watched the movies that we see people doing in

1891
01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:18,599
Speaker 1: the movies and we all love it. We're like, yes,

1892
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:22,439
Speaker 1: they helped that. We love that, you know, but something

1893
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:24,479
Speaker 1: that does it's hard to do in real life when

1894
01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 1: when you're faced with it. Yeah, and I think it

1895
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:31,720
Speaker 1: it I have, so I've experienced some things around, you know,

1896
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:34,280
Speaker 1: just talking about black hunters. And we had a show.

1897
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:36,599
Speaker 1: I got a friend by the name of Charles Rodney,

1898
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:38,000
Speaker 1: and he lives in Maryland and he's a big time

1899
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:41,040
Speaker 1: rabbit hunter. He's African American. Yeah, and he happened to

1900
01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:44,800
Speaker 1: and I don't. I mean, I love this man. I

1901
01:37:44,920 --> 01:37:47,400
Speaker 1: love what he stands for. I love his family. His

1902
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:52,760
Speaker 1: wife is awesome, his kids are awesome. And when he

1903
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:56,800
Speaker 1: comes on the show, he's incredibly energetic and and I

1904
01:37:57,120 --> 01:38:01,960
Speaker 1: find myself like trying to not generalized his motivations, trying

1905
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:05,120
Speaker 1: to not tokenize the guy, because I respect him and

1906
01:38:05,160 --> 01:38:07,519
Speaker 1: I love it. I think he's awesome, and I'm trying

1907
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:10,200
Speaker 1: not to. I don't want to have him on because

1908
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 1: he's black, and I don't want other people to be

1909
01:38:12,160 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: interested in talking to him because of that certainly part

1910
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:17,400
Speaker 1: of who he is. And he grew up in in

1911
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:21,880
Speaker 1: the segregation at South in Louisiana, the child of a sharecropper,

1912
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: and um, he's able to talk about like the difference

1913
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 1: in hunting as a pursuit. If you were rich and

1914
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:32,519
Speaker 1: you were a landowner, you did a certain type of hunting.

1915
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,560
Speaker 1: And if you were poor and you were a sharecropper,

1916
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 1: you did a certain type of hunting. And that's kind

1917
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:39,639
Speaker 1: of why he loves to hunt rabbits to this day.

1918
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:42,960
Speaker 1: So he has taught me all these things. But I

1919
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:45,120
Speaker 1: think one of my greatest challenges of knowing him and

1920
01:38:45,200 --> 01:38:47,040
Speaker 1: having this platform where I can have him on, we

1921
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:49,479
Speaker 1: can talk in public, because I just don't want to

1922
01:38:49,560 --> 01:38:53,680
Speaker 1: do that to the guy. Um well it, well man,

1923
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:58,720
Speaker 1: I would say that in part, you know that's in

1924
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:01,559
Speaker 1: part it's up to him, right, And I think there's

1925
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,720
Speaker 1: something about the transparency. I mean, I hear you're saying,

1926
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 1: you don't want to do that to my get it.

1927
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:07,479
Speaker 1: You don't want to tokenize him. You don't want to

1928
01:39:07,560 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 1: tokenize anybody. And part of his what makes his story

1929
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:15,400
Speaker 1: so um vibrant, is the fact that he's African American

1930
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 1: and have these experiences. So don't deny him that either.

1931
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:21,479
Speaker 1: There's a way that don't be afraid to say, hey,

1932
01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:24,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to tokenize you, and I want you

1933
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:27,000
Speaker 1: on in part because you are black and you can

1934
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 1: talk about things I can't talk about in a way

1935
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:31,559
Speaker 1: you know that I can't talk about, and I want

1936
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:34,280
Speaker 1: people to hear that, along with all the ways you

1937
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,040
Speaker 1: just show up as a whole person in the world.

1938
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 1: I think that's okay. If I was doing the thing

1939
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 1: on I used to have this class where a piece

1940
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:46,160
Speaker 1: of the class was on Japanese internment, and I, you know,

1941
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, and I spend time in

1942
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 1: Japan and just having that conversation around Japanese internment it's

1943
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 1: just for me. Really. I'm not Japanese, you know, but

1944
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:57,720
Speaker 1: I you know, just the things I feel as an

1945
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:00,720
Speaker 1: American about what that means terms of what was done

1946
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:03,760
Speaker 1: to Japanese people. And I would have this Japanese man

1947
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,200
Speaker 1: who had spent time in a camp come in and

1948
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:09,280
Speaker 1: tell the story, and I was having a minute. He knew.

1949
01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:12,479
Speaker 1: I said, he's a wonderful human being, and I said,

1950
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:15,880
Speaker 1: I want you here because you're a Japanese and you

1951
01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:18,479
Speaker 1: spend time in the camps, and only you can tell

1952
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 1: that story in that way. I can't do it. I

1953
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:23,640
Speaker 1: can speak of it, you know, and around it, but

1954
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:25,679
Speaker 1: I can't do it in the way. And he was like, oh, yeah,

1955
01:40:25,920 --> 01:40:28,560
Speaker 1: I'm there I'm down, you know, to do that. And

1956
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:30,840
Speaker 1: you know what, and if a person, if you say

1957
01:40:30,920 --> 01:40:32,200
Speaker 1: that to a person and they don't want to do

1958
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:34,240
Speaker 1: it for that reason, they can tell you that. They

1959
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 1: can say I'm sorry, I don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

1960
01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 1: If you don't want that to be the main way

1961
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:41,240
Speaker 1: people see you, then don't do it. Right now, that's

1962
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 1: a great point, and it's just you know, when you're

1963
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:46,439
Speaker 1: having a show and telling a story, you know, we

1964
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:48,559
Speaker 1: could have this could have been. I mean, I understand

1965
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 1: why you have me on. There are so many other

1966
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:52,360
Speaker 1: aspects of my personality. I was an actor for a

1967
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 1: loving years, right, I'm from the arts. We could there's

1968
01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:57,439
Speaker 1: other pieces of my personality we could talk about, but

1969
01:40:57,520 --> 01:40:59,479
Speaker 1: that's not what we're here to talk about. I know

1970
01:40:59,800 --> 01:41:02,519
Speaker 1: that this isn't all of who I am, you know.

1971
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:05,080
Speaker 1: I know that, And I understand you're invited me because

1972
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:07,439
Speaker 1: I wrote the book and as an African American, I

1973
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 1: think about these things personally, and that's cool. I do

1974
01:41:10,360 --> 01:41:14,479
Speaker 1: not feel tokenized on any level because I understand it,

1975
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:17,720
Speaker 1: because if I did, I wouldn't I would say so yeah, yeah,

1976
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:20,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's and that's the fear in

1977
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 1: that is only that you just want the thing that

1978
01:41:23,240 --> 01:41:27,080
Speaker 1: you that you want is somebody feel comfortable, feel like

1979
01:41:27,200 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 1: they're in it for that, I'm in it for the

1980
01:41:29,360 --> 01:41:32,960
Speaker 1: right reasons, in there for them, and that that everybody

1981
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:36,240
Speaker 1: has a similar motivation. And so I think that's all

1982
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:41,679
Speaker 1: open and good. Yeah, And sometimes it's hard. That's that's

1983
01:41:42,040 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 1: and that's okay. That's the something I want to really

1984
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:48,719
Speaker 1: emphasize for people is that it's hard to do this stuff,

1985
01:41:49,400 --> 01:41:51,479
Speaker 1: you know, to kind of be with people who are

1986
01:41:51,560 --> 01:41:54,400
Speaker 1: not us, to have these kinds of conversations. And it

1987
01:41:54,560 --> 01:41:59,320
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it can't be open and good and and exciting.

1988
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:04,000
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's hard, that's it. Yeah. I definitely want

1989
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 1: to come and see your your performance piece about John

1990
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:11,520
Speaker 1: You're it's called it's called the N word Nature revisited.

1991
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:16,519
Speaker 1: Itunds fantastic. Man. That sounds like I'm just gonna come

1992
01:42:16,560 --> 01:42:18,080
Speaker 1: with the Core's light and let's get it. Let's go,

1993
01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:23,680
Speaker 1: let's go, let's see what's good. Yes, yeah, yeah, Can

1994
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:25,559
Speaker 1: you tell me just about that, because I think that's

1995
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,760
Speaker 1: it illustrates, of course, what we already talked about, which

1996
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:31,519
Speaker 1: is there's these figures that we idolize, but they're complicated.

1997
01:42:32,240 --> 01:42:35,519
Speaker 1: So in and I'm still working on this, but in

1998
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:39,640
Speaker 1: sen was the centennial for the National Parks and so

1999
01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 1: that year, and some of your listeners may remember, there's

2000
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:46,360
Speaker 1: sort of lots of celebrations and activities, and um, my

2001
01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:49,400
Speaker 1: doctorate is in geography, and so there's always a huge

2002
01:42:49,479 --> 01:42:52,320
Speaker 1: geography conference over the year. Thousands of people come and

2003
01:42:52,400 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 1: they had a special panel. They asked about seven or

2004
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:57,960
Speaker 1: eight of us geographers but from different parts of the discipline,

2005
01:42:58,240 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 1: to sit on it. And it's the question that we're

2006
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:02,679
Speaker 1: gonna ask each of you. Is is John Muir still

2007
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:06,280
Speaker 1: relevant today? Right? And they said you have ten twelve

2008
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 1: minutes to answer each to answer that question. So I

2009
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 1: had worked on this idea that I didn't want to

2010
01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:14,479
Speaker 1: just come up with some answer, and I started thinking about, um,

2011
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:17,840
Speaker 1: is John murestill relevant? Like how do I feel about that? Right? Um?

2012
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:20,960
Speaker 1: And so one of the things I did I thought

2013
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:24,759
Speaker 1: about so your readers and you probably remember the movie

2014
01:43:24,880 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 1: and the story Gone with the Wind right written by

2015
01:43:28,120 --> 01:43:32,120
Speaker 1: Margaret Mitchell. And in the early two thousands, there was

2016
01:43:32,160 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 1: a black writer out of Harvard named Alice Randall who thought,

2017
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:38,599
Speaker 1: I wonder if Gone with the Wind had been written

2018
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 1: by a black woman, it had been the central character

2019
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 1: was a black woman instead of Scarlet O'Hara, how would

2020
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:45,880
Speaker 1: the story be different? So she wrote it. She wrote

2021
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:53,200
Speaker 1: a book called the Wind Done Gone then exactly right? Yes,

2022
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:57,280
Speaker 1: And the central character was a what she she described

2023
01:43:57,280 --> 01:43:59,479
Speaker 1: it as a mulatto, you know, the half sister of

2024
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:02,080
Speaker 1: Scarlett O'Hara. And she wasn't trying to be funny in

2025
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:04,720
Speaker 1: the story, but the title is pretty funny. Um and

2026
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:06,720
Speaker 1: the market and so I'm telling the audience this, and

2027
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:09,599
Speaker 1: I'm saying, you know that Margaret Mitchell Estate lost their minds, right,

2028
01:44:09,680 --> 01:44:12,280
Speaker 1: they were really they didn't want this book to be published.

2029
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:14,400
Speaker 1: So when you try to buy it on the front,

2030
01:44:14,479 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 1: it'll say a parody because that she was forced to

2031
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:19,240
Speaker 1: put that on the cover, even though it's not what

2032
01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:22,000
Speaker 1: she was trying to do. So I'm telling the audience this,

2033
01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:24,559
Speaker 1: and I'm saying, you know, So I was thinking about

2034
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:27,080
Speaker 1: one of John Muer's books. One of the ones he

2035
01:44:27,160 --> 01:44:29,240
Speaker 1: wrote was A Thousand Mile Walked through the Gulf in

2036
01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:32,160
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty seven, and in eighteen sixty seven he spent

2037
01:44:32,240 --> 01:44:34,320
Speaker 1: I think more than a year walking through some southern

2038
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:36,680
Speaker 1: states like Kentucky. He made it all the way down

2039
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:39,200
Speaker 1: to Cuba actually because he wanted to look at the

2040
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:43,120
Speaker 1: impact of war on the landscape. Right. And so then

2041
01:44:43,200 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 1: what I did is I took passages from yours book.

2042
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:49,639
Speaker 1: It was published, I believe in nineteen sixteen, in his words,

2043
01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:51,680
Speaker 1: and and some beautiful things he was saying about the

2044
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 1: nature he was seeing. But I also read some passages

2045
01:44:55,479 --> 01:44:57,760
Speaker 1: about some of the things he was saying about the

2046
01:44:57,760 --> 01:45:00,240
Speaker 1: black people he was seeing. He in his words. So

2047
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm just reading his words to the audience, and I'm

2048
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:06,960
Speaker 1: saying each year, you know, you know, I'll i'd say

2049
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:09,160
Speaker 1: the date, and I'd say this thing about that he said.

2050
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:12,080
Speaker 1: And then I said, I looked at the audience, I said,

2051
01:45:12,280 --> 01:45:14,720
Speaker 1: so when I wondered, what if a black woman had

2052
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:18,040
Speaker 1: written this instead? Right, So instead of calling it a

2053
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 1: thousand mile Walks of the Gulf in eighteen sixty seven,

2054
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 1: I called it a thousand mile walk was rough. And

2055
01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:28,280
Speaker 1: I made up a character called through journal Washington Douglass.

2056
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:31,640
Speaker 1: And then what I did I put quotes and what

2057
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:35,320
Speaker 1: but I pulled real historical facts, like you know that

2058
01:45:35,400 --> 01:45:37,840
Speaker 1: she was born in Louisiana and the hangings that were

2059
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:40,280
Speaker 1: going on in cold Facts there. I talked about how

2060
01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:43,120
Speaker 1: she was ducking and weaving across the hostile landscape. I

2061
01:45:43,240 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 1: talked about how she wasn't light enough to pass, so

2062
01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:48,599
Speaker 1: she had to, you know, use the woods in order

2063
01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:51,200
Speaker 1: to make her escape. And then I got to eighteen

2064
01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:54,120
Speaker 1: ninety and I'd go, eighteen ninety, Jim Crow was the man.

2065
01:45:55,760 --> 01:45:59,360
Speaker 1: Jim Crow was the man, not Jim Crow was the man.

2066
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:01,720
Speaker 1: And I kept doing that right, and then then when

2067
01:46:01,760 --> 01:46:04,400
Speaker 1: I got to nineteen, I said, this is Winster Juror Washington.

2068
01:46:04,479 --> 01:46:08,120
Speaker 1: Douglas passed away and Jim Crow was still the man.

2069
01:46:08,680 --> 01:46:12,200
Speaker 1: Then the second part of my answer was there's a

2070
01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:15,719
Speaker 1: book called Wrap on Race, and it's an amazing book.

2071
01:46:15,760 --> 01:46:20,160
Speaker 1: It's a transcribed conversation between James Baldwin, the black poet,

2072
01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:23,600
Speaker 1: and Margaret Meade, the white anthropologist who's probably one of

2073
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:27,439
Speaker 1: the most famous anthropologists, and they who don't agree on

2074
01:46:27,479 --> 01:46:29,760
Speaker 1: a lot of things. Is I won't have this conversation

2075
01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:32,479
Speaker 1: about race, and so it's incredibly powerful. So I'm telling

2076
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:34,760
Speaker 1: the audience about that. And I then I said, you know,

2077
01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:36,920
Speaker 1: I sit on the National Parks Advisory Board, or at

2078
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:39,920
Speaker 1: least I was and I said, what would it be

2079
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 1: like of John Mure and I had a conversation. So

2080
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:44,519
Speaker 1: then I kind of did a little scene, like I

2081
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:46,880
Speaker 1: made it kind of funny about inviting him over to

2082
01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:49,920
Speaker 1: my place and how he was looking really surprised to

2083
01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:51,800
Speaker 1: see me there, and said, did he imagine I'd be

2084
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:54,160
Speaker 1: cleaning his house? But he's having this conversation with me

2085
01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:56,280
Speaker 1: and I sort of him green tea, and I'm trying

2086
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,280
Speaker 1: to kind of enlighten him some stuff, and I make

2087
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:00,519
Speaker 1: it sort of funny because I bring up, like Oprah

2088
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:02,439
Speaker 1: in Tupacket, things he doesn't know anything, and I was like,

2089
01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:04,720
Speaker 1: that's gonna be difficult for him, but let's talk about this.

2090
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:06,560
Speaker 1: And I just end the end say to him, you know,

2091
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:08,800
Speaker 1: why don't we meet again? But I know you need

2092
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:11,000
Speaker 1: some time to think about everything I just said to you,

2093
01:47:11,080 --> 01:47:13,240
Speaker 1: because I tell him about Shelton Johnson, the Black Park

2094
01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:16,479
Speaker 1: ranger in Yosemite, and I'm just telling them things, you know,

2095
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:18,600
Speaker 1: And then he goes away, and at the end I

2096
01:47:18,640 --> 01:47:20,920
Speaker 1: look at the audience and say, you know, it's not

2097
01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:23,320
Speaker 1: a question whether or not he's relevant or not. It's

2098
01:47:23,400 --> 01:47:25,960
Speaker 1: that he becomes relevant on my terms. And there's some things.

2099
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:28,400
Speaker 1: So I wanted to expand the whole thing into a

2100
01:47:28,439 --> 01:47:30,800
Speaker 1: one woman show that has imagery that kind of looks

2101
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:35,479
Speaker 1: at our understandings of nature and conservation and wilderness and

2102
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:38,559
Speaker 1: again how it's been constructed over time in this country

2103
01:47:38,920 --> 01:47:43,360
Speaker 1: and where the issue of race and perspective comes in, right,

2104
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 1: and to understand the complexity of that where you could

2105
01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:49,120
Speaker 1: have a man like John Muir who clearly loved the

2106
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:52,880
Speaker 1: idea of nature and wilderness and committed his life to that,

2107
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:57,040
Speaker 1: but could also hold racist perspectives about human beings that

2108
01:47:57,120 --> 01:47:59,920
Speaker 1: didn't look like him. Yeah, And I think it's it's

2109
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:03,080
Speaker 1: strikes me like you're able to both be a pragmatist

2110
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:05,920
Speaker 1: about this when you talk about it, and you're also

2111
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:09,840
Speaker 1: emotionally connected, like astoundingly emotionally connected to it for great reason, right,

2112
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 1: So like there is you can do both things at

2113
01:48:12,920 --> 01:48:15,680
Speaker 1: the same time. And I think that's important. Yes, I

2114
01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 1: think that we and that we all can and that

2115
01:48:18,280 --> 01:48:21,760
Speaker 1: it just as you know, what I always tell an

2116
01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:23,800
Speaker 1: audience that I'm talking to, I said, I refuse to

2117
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:27,640
Speaker 1: give up my humanity in this work. I'm not interested in,

2118
01:48:28,160 --> 01:48:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, any anger that I have, I feel is

2119
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:33,040
Speaker 1: what it is. It's anger, and sometimes that's what comes

2120
01:48:33,120 --> 01:48:36,040
Speaker 1: up an emotion, you know, and sadness and all these

2121
01:48:36,120 --> 01:48:39,559
Speaker 1: things come up. And actually I'm a real optimist about

2122
01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:42,519
Speaker 1: I believe in it our capacity to be so much

2123
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,280
Speaker 1: better than we are, you know. And I'm not interested

2124
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:47,920
Speaker 1: in becoming the suddenly the oppressor. So I don't want

2125
01:48:47,960 --> 01:48:50,400
Speaker 1: to start. I can say that, you know what, John

2126
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:54,280
Speaker 1: Muir had some racist thoughts and ideas embedded in his work.

2127
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:58,599
Speaker 1: That's real, which doesn't make him a necessarily a horrible person.

2128
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:02,040
Speaker 1: But I can certainly be upset with him about his racism,

2129
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:06,240
Speaker 1: and I can certainly appreciate his commitment to the wilderness

2130
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:09,120
Speaker 1: and nature. I can do both. Yeah, that's and that's huge.

2131
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:11,759
Speaker 1: But I think we would probably I'd probably be remiss

2132
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:14,600
Speaker 1: if I didn't ask you, um, the simple question like

2133
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:16,760
Speaker 1: what do you think you're You're in New York born

2134
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:18,760
Speaker 1: like East Coast, you lived in Vermont, now you live,

2135
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:20,720
Speaker 1: You've been around, you were in Berkeley for a while.

2136
01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:23,160
Speaker 1: What do you think about been around? Been around? You've

2137
01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:27,439
Speaker 1: been You've been in Africa, you've been to Asia. Um,

2138
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:29,680
Speaker 1: what do you think about hunting? Like? What where's your

2139
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:33,120
Speaker 1: sensibility lie there? So this is one of my you know,

2140
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:35,000
Speaker 1: like I said, I had a dad, I have a

2141
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:39,559
Speaker 1: dad still, father who was really into guns. Um uh,

2142
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:41,719
Speaker 1: not so much. When he was a kid. He did hunting.

2143
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:43,960
Speaker 1: But you know, we lived in New York. But my father,

2144
01:49:44,160 --> 01:49:46,760
Speaker 1: well that's not entirely true. There's a funny story. So

2145
01:49:47,240 --> 01:49:48,800
Speaker 1: on the property we grew up on, there was a

2146
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:51,840
Speaker 1: proliferation of geese and like there's a lot of you know,

2147
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 1: just so many geese. And because my father's job, you know,

2148
01:49:55,000 --> 01:49:57,040
Speaker 1: it was to keep the lawns and the grounds nice.

2149
01:49:57,200 --> 01:50:01,160
Speaker 1: You know, geese poop everywhere, right, and it made my

2150
01:50:01,240 --> 01:50:04,280
Speaker 1: father crazy. So he'd go out sometimes at midnight. He'd

2151
01:50:04,320 --> 01:50:08,000
Speaker 1: be shooting up the geese on the approperty, which stood

2152
01:50:08,040 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 1: on the roof of the one of the house. I mean,

2153
01:50:10,160 --> 01:50:12,519
Speaker 1: he was. It became such a thing. He was in

2154
01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:15,320
Speaker 1: the local paper about how much he hated the geese.

2155
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:17,240
Speaker 1: He used to he said he would wake up at

2156
01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:20,519
Speaker 1: night from a nightmare. My mother said he would sit

2157
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:23,120
Speaker 1: up screaming because he said he'd be sitting in his

2158
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:25,719
Speaker 1: little rowboat on the lake and the geese was suddenly

2159
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:30,800
Speaker 1: started attacking them, uh, started attacking him, right. So it

2160
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:32,880
Speaker 1: was a long running thing with him and the geese.

2161
01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:35,200
Speaker 1: But that's the only time that I saw him hunt.

2162
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:38,799
Speaker 1: And it wasn't for sport, and it wasn't for food.

2163
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:41,439
Speaker 1: It was for you know, I don't know he wanted

2164
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:43,400
Speaker 1: to get rid of the geese. He said, he just

2165
01:50:43,439 --> 01:50:49,640
Speaker 1: had a populized control. Rank that's right. Um, I you

2166
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:52,360
Speaker 1: know the thing that I understood. I feel like I

2167
01:50:52,439 --> 01:50:55,200
Speaker 1: can understand his hunting for food. I can understand that.

2168
01:50:55,720 --> 01:50:59,240
Speaker 1: I for a couple of years, I was friends with friends.

2169
01:50:59,320 --> 01:51:02,200
Speaker 1: I was I had a relationship, a romantic relationship with

2170
01:51:02,240 --> 01:51:06,519
Speaker 1: a German forster, and he hunted. And this is when

2171
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:08,400
Speaker 1: I lived in Nepal and I went to Germany and

2172
01:51:08,439 --> 01:51:12,160
Speaker 1: I remember, um, your your audience is not gonna like

2173
01:51:12,320 --> 01:51:14,160
Speaker 1: me after I say this, But I I you know,

2174
01:51:14,280 --> 01:51:16,800
Speaker 1: this was this was This was about twenty years ago.

2175
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:19,840
Speaker 1: So caught me a little flak. But I was in

2176
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:22,800
Speaker 1: Germany and I remember going out with him and another

2177
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,840
Speaker 1: friend of his. They were gonna hunt, and I just

2178
01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:28,960
Speaker 1: it's just hard for me. I couldn't if we weren't,

2179
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:31,160
Speaker 1: I didn't, we didn't need to hunt. So I just

2180
01:51:31,240 --> 01:51:33,880
Speaker 1: didn't understand it. So I remember I couldn't go with

2181
01:51:34,000 --> 01:51:35,840
Speaker 1: him I said, I'll wait, and I was like primned

2182
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:37,720
Speaker 1: if they don't get anything, and they didn't. I was

2183
01:51:37,800 --> 01:51:42,519
Speaker 1: really happy about um, and I enjoyed a huge way

2184
01:51:42,600 --> 01:51:45,960
Speaker 1: to meat. Let me just right. I mean they served

2185
01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:48,640
Speaker 1: all this delicious meat that his wife cooked up, and

2186
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:50,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, his friend's wife cooked up and

2187
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:53,720
Speaker 1: it was amazing. UM, and I ate it. Right. So

2188
01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:56,960
Speaker 1: it's complicated, right, And when I look at it now,

2189
01:51:57,040 --> 01:51:58,840
Speaker 1: and I know people have become friends with people like

2190
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:02,960
Speaker 1: Jonathan Paul who are hunters. And I also met Um.

2191
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:06,679
Speaker 1: Oh my god, he's a wonderful He's a young white

2192
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:09,439
Speaker 1: guy who goes around. He used to be an outdoor adventurer,

2193
01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:12,920
Speaker 1: but he's like hard course hunter. Now his name will

2194
01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 1: come back to me because I know you know who

2195
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 1: he is. Yeah, And I'm just I'm just facing out

2196
01:52:18,240 --> 01:52:20,639
Speaker 1: on his name because he's got an unusual name. UM

2197
01:52:21,360 --> 01:52:23,479
Speaker 1: and I and we were both speaking at something this

2198
01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:25,800
Speaker 1: past year and I met him and I really listened

2199
01:52:25,840 --> 01:52:29,479
Speaker 1: to his story, which was amazing, and I thought, you know, hey,

2200
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:33,160
Speaker 1: you know people you know. For me, it's there's something

2201
01:52:33,200 --> 01:52:36,840
Speaker 1: about consciousness. How conscious are we in responsible for what

2202
01:52:36,960 --> 01:52:40,120
Speaker 1: it is that we do? So I can't the thing

2203
01:52:40,200 --> 01:52:42,880
Speaker 1: that where here's where I can't go. You know, when

2204
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:45,400
Speaker 1: the sport hunter who goes to South Africa to hunt

2205
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:47,040
Speaker 1: elephants for sports so he can put the head on

2206
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:49,800
Speaker 1: the wall is really hard for me. I just I

2207
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:52,160
Speaker 1: can't I don't get it. I love elephants, and I

2208
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:54,160
Speaker 1: just don't get why you would put one to put

2209
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:56,200
Speaker 1: a while down of his animals head on the wall

2210
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:59,200
Speaker 1: simply for sport, not because you were trying to survive

2211
01:52:59,640 --> 01:53:02,640
Speaker 1: or eat or you know whatever. Is like, I just

2212
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: don't understand that. But I certainly have respect for people

2213
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:10,840
Speaker 1: who are consciously trying to engage, Like they're gonna eat meat,

2214
01:53:10,880 --> 01:53:12,840
Speaker 1: you know what, They're gonna hunt for that meat, They're

2215
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:15,080
Speaker 1: going to skin that meat, They're going to think about

2216
01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:18,280
Speaker 1: that population that they live in a relationship with, you know,

2217
01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:21,559
Speaker 1: where they live. That's really for me that there's something

2218
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:25,160
Speaker 1: really deep about that. Um, you know, to take that

2219
01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:28,360
Speaker 1: kind of responsibility and be that involved so that you're

2220
01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:31,360
Speaker 1: walking your talk in a very particular way, and so

2221
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:33,240
Speaker 1: that I have a lot of respect for. I have

2222
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:36,160
Speaker 1: a hard time with guns. I have shot guns. You know,

2223
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:40,639
Speaker 1: I have to say that I was really good at it. Um,

2224
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:42,599
Speaker 1: and this was when I was with the germ guy said,

2225
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:45,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm competitive, So I there's an aspect of

2226
01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:49,559
Speaker 1: that in terms of the sport of just shooting the gun,

2227
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:52,680
Speaker 1: not shooting it at anything beyond the target. But I've

2228
01:53:52,720 --> 01:53:55,760
Speaker 1: never had to shoot anything that was living. And I

2229
01:53:55,840 --> 01:53:59,240
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, but if I had to survive,

2230
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:02,240
Speaker 1: like if that the situation and it was a survival,

2231
01:54:02,280 --> 01:54:03,880
Speaker 1: like if I want to eat, the only way I

2232
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:07,040
Speaker 1: can eat is hunt for it, I'm gonna learn how

2233
01:54:09,360 --> 01:54:13,280
Speaker 1: I love it. Like that's fairly common, right, Like that's

2234
01:54:13,560 --> 01:54:16,040
Speaker 1: like the way you just articulated all that is pretty

2235
01:54:16,560 --> 01:54:18,400
Speaker 1: Like what I find is most people are kind of

2236
01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:20,400
Speaker 1: in that spot and they're like they're open to it,

2237
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:24,040
Speaker 1: but the only other certain circumstances and they're fighting the

2238
01:54:24,120 --> 01:54:26,760
Speaker 1: preconceptions that are out there in their own mind. Um,

2239
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:29,200
Speaker 1: and that's that's just where we are. Yes, And I've

2240
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:31,760
Speaker 1: love you know because I you know, I've had significant

2241
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:34,320
Speaker 1: others who I mean, I you know, I have like

2242
01:54:34,480 --> 01:54:36,960
Speaker 1: to think that I have diverse people. I've had diverse

2243
01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:39,320
Speaker 1: people in my lives and when I've loved people, you

2244
01:54:39,360 --> 01:54:42,800
Speaker 1: know that have had aspects of their character personality are

2245
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:45,200
Speaker 1: very different than my own. I've had to work hard

2246
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:48,400
Speaker 1: to you know, walk my own talk about standing in

2247
01:54:48,480 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 1: the difference of respecting that or trying to at least

2248
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 1: at the bare minimum, trying to understand it, you know,

2249
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:56,880
Speaker 1: even though I don't have to do exactly what they

2250
01:54:56,960 --> 01:54:58,680
Speaker 1: do in the way that they do it anymore than

2251
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:00,920
Speaker 1: they have to do that for me, right and what

2252
01:55:01,080 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 1: that means, So I can kind of come to it

2253
01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:05,120
Speaker 1: from that way, And I'm always open and learning about,

2254
01:55:05,960 --> 01:55:10,320
Speaker 1: um uh, what it means to be what it means

2255
01:55:10,400 --> 01:55:15,160
Speaker 1: to walk our talk around issues of conservation and being

2256
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,480
Speaker 1: in better relationship with non human nature and kind of

2257
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:22,280
Speaker 1: showing up there, you know, how real about how are

2258
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:24,760
Speaker 1: we real about that? How are we? Yeah, I've had

2259
01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:26,920
Speaker 1: people labeled me in certain ways just for speaking about that.

2260
01:55:27,040 --> 01:55:29,120
Speaker 1: I'm like that, I don't, I'm not. I don't. I

2261
01:55:29,160 --> 01:55:31,360
Speaker 1: don't want to self profess anything, but I do think

2262
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 1: that as a hunter nowadays, there's there's just certain things

2263
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:38,120
Speaker 1: that are more palable to to most folks. And when

2264
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:40,400
Speaker 1: you start talking about the food and the connection to

2265
01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:45,040
Speaker 1: nature and worrying about healthy ecosystems and thinking about these

2266
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 1: animals and in a way of value and that sits

2267
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:51,320
Speaker 1: in a certain value system. I think people people generally

2268
01:55:51,400 --> 01:55:53,160
Speaker 1: accept that and they're willing to move towards it. So

2269
01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:55,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good too. It's good to hear that. Obviously,

2270
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:57,960
Speaker 1: like you said, it wasn't the reasonable I had you on,

2271
01:55:58,080 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to know, just from your experience,

2272
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:04,080
Speaker 1: what thought. Yeah, And I'm looking as funny as we're talking,

2273
01:56:04,120 --> 01:56:06,000
Speaker 1: because I really want to find the name of that hunter,

2274
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:09,520
Speaker 1: which I just feel like, I know you know a

2275
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:12,760
Speaker 1: lot of your listeners probably even though who he is,

2276
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:15,440
Speaker 1: because he was so I heard his story this year

2277
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:18,120
Speaker 1: and he was so amazing. Uh, But I don't know

2278
01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:21,080
Speaker 1: that I can find it while I'm we're talking and

2279
01:56:21,200 --> 01:56:24,360
Speaker 1: be focused. We'll have to, We'll have to dig it up.

2280
01:56:24,400 --> 01:56:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I can think of I can think of

2281
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:28,480
Speaker 1: a lot of names. I could rattle off a bunch

2282
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 1: of them, but I don't want to. I don't want

2283
01:56:30,720 --> 01:56:33,640
Speaker 1: to get it wrong. Um. But yeah, I mean, I

2284
01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 1: think kind of just to start to try to wrap

2285
01:56:37,080 --> 01:56:40,200
Speaker 1: this up, I mean, I wonder and I'm gonna sit

2286
01:56:40,320 --> 01:56:42,840
Speaker 1: and think about kind of what you've said here and

2287
01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:46,400
Speaker 1: in some of the ways to move forward, and in

2288
01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:50,240
Speaker 1: kind of the perspective, that's that's within your work. And

2289
01:56:50,320 --> 01:56:53,160
Speaker 1: then this this conversation even and of itself, because I

2290
01:56:53,200 --> 01:56:56,440
Speaker 1: think it requires some introspection on all our parts, on

2291
01:56:56,520 --> 01:57:02,080
Speaker 1: my part and everyone listening. Um, do you feel that

2292
01:57:02,360 --> 01:57:05,800
Speaker 1: we're one we're headed in the right direction with this stuff?

2293
01:57:06,240 --> 01:57:09,920
Speaker 1: And are there examples of things that folks can do, um,

2294
01:57:10,120 --> 01:57:14,240
Speaker 1: whether it's tangible or intangible to to to kind of

2295
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:18,640
Speaker 1: show that they're in the right mindset here. Um, So

2296
01:57:18,840 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 1: I will say this, I you know we are we

2297
01:57:23,760 --> 01:57:28,560
Speaker 1: we are moving forward right Ah, sorry, my team, oh,

2298
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:33,560
Speaker 1: my team to tell us Yeah, yeah, his brother, his

2299
01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:37,200
Speaker 1: brother is sitting across the room for me right now. Yeah.

2300
01:57:37,680 --> 01:57:39,560
Speaker 1: It was my teens story because we met and we

2301
01:57:39,680 --> 01:57:42,160
Speaker 1: were both talking at a thing together and his story

2302
01:57:42,280 --> 01:57:44,000
Speaker 1: was so amazing and just the way he told it

2303
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:47,560
Speaker 1: was amazing and it was helpful for me. We love

2304
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:49,480
Speaker 1: my teeen. His brother, Janice is a big part of

2305
01:57:49,520 --> 01:57:51,800
Speaker 1: our company and on our show, been on this show

2306
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:57,440
Speaker 1: many times. That's awesome. I can move on and talk.

2307
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:00,560
Speaker 1: Shout out to my team. He's yeah, he's a great,

2308
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:06,160
Speaker 1: great representative for all of us. Men. Yes, yes, um, yes, Um,

2309
01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:09,440
Speaker 1: we're whether or not we're moving in the right direction.

2310
01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:12,040
Speaker 1: I think that we are. The fact that we're moving

2311
01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:15,440
Speaker 1: forward is the right thing to do. I mean. And

2312
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:18,000
Speaker 1: what the thing that's true I will say to you

2313
01:58:18,440 --> 01:58:21,640
Speaker 1: and your listeners is that in ten fifteen years ago,

2314
01:58:22,560 --> 01:58:24,960
Speaker 1: ten years ago, my phone would have been ringing around.

2315
01:58:25,360 --> 01:58:28,120
Speaker 1: We I only go places where I'm invited, right, And

2316
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:31,440
Speaker 1: I only around to have these conversations because I can't

2317
01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:33,360
Speaker 1: force anybody to do anything, and I don't want to.

2318
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:36,080
Speaker 1: And if people, you know, this is how I make

2319
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:39,960
Speaker 1: a living. And also people have to have to be

2320
01:58:40,040 --> 01:58:43,160
Speaker 1: invited in, and I have in the last five years

2321
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:44,840
Speaker 1: since the book has come out, I haven't had to

2322
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:48,920
Speaker 1: look for work work. I'm over extended. I'm so over

2323
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:52,080
Speaker 1: extended already in the next year. So what I'm saying

2324
01:58:52,120 --> 01:58:56,160
Speaker 1: about that is that that field is exciting because most

2325
01:58:56,200 --> 01:58:59,800
Speaker 1: of those invitations are from predominantly white groups who are

2326
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:02,160
Speaker 1: are to think about, how do we do this all?

2327
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 1: A lot of the things you said today, how do

2328
01:59:04,000 --> 01:59:07,240
Speaker 1: we understand this? What do we what is required of us?

2329
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:11,800
Speaker 1: You know, and so forth, And so that's just beyond

2330
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:15,360
Speaker 1: exciting for me because that's where growth happens for all

2331
01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:17,480
Speaker 1: of us. You know, what does it mean for us

2332
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:20,120
Speaker 1: to be willing and ready to sort of show up,

2333
01:59:20,400 --> 01:59:23,320
Speaker 1: not just for the conversation, but to sort of, um,

2334
01:59:23,560 --> 01:59:25,360
Speaker 1: you know, put our hands together, on our heads together,

2335
01:59:25,400 --> 01:59:27,880
Speaker 1: in our hearts together, and move forward. Right. So I'm

2336
01:59:27,920 --> 01:59:30,320
Speaker 1: really excited by that. What was the second thing, Ben

2337
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:32,440
Speaker 1: you said? It's like a part of that question, you know,

2338
01:59:32,520 --> 01:59:35,360
Speaker 1: what are there tangible or intangible things that people can do?

2339
01:59:35,680 --> 01:59:37,760
Speaker 1: I think probably more tangible here because a lot of

2340
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:39,720
Speaker 1: what we're talking about is just conceptual, you know, how

2341
01:59:39,800 --> 01:59:42,680
Speaker 1: we think about Like is there other than that? I

2342
01:59:42,760 --> 01:59:45,680
Speaker 1: think would probably be obvious, like find someone in your

2343
01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:47,680
Speaker 1: community that doesn't look like you and talk to him

2344
01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:50,920
Speaker 1: about these ideas. Is there other things like larger since

2345
01:59:50,960 --> 01:59:53,120
Speaker 1: you kind of have seen how our government works and

2346
01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:56,840
Speaker 1: how legislation works, sort of larger things that can be done. Yes.

2347
01:59:57,000 --> 02:00:01,920
Speaker 1: And there's a very easy um an article that people

2348
02:00:02,040 --> 02:00:04,640
Speaker 1: have access to online. They can get to. So I

2349
02:00:04,760 --> 02:00:07,200
Speaker 1: was last December. I was part of a group r E.

2350
02:00:07,360 --> 02:00:10,040
Speaker 1: I sponsored a group of us to come together in

2351
02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:13,440
Speaker 1: New York City for the Atlantic magazine to have a conversation,

2352
02:00:13,520 --> 02:00:16,480
Speaker 1: a taped conversation about this. And so the article is

2353
02:00:16,520 --> 02:00:19,920
Speaker 1: called five Ways to make the Outdoors more inclusive, and

2354
02:00:20,640 --> 02:00:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, there were Atlanta writers there and they put

2355
02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:25,320
Speaker 1: it all together and came up with a bunch of

2356
02:00:25,400 --> 02:00:27,680
Speaker 1: steps and sort of you know, sort of one on

2357
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:30,680
Speaker 1: one fundamental ways, different ways people could be thinking about

2358
02:00:31,080 --> 02:00:34,040
Speaker 1: how they might move forward. Um. And they had the

2359
02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:36,040
Speaker 1: range of us in the room where it was just

2360
02:00:36,120 --> 02:00:37,640
Speaker 1: a range. It was might maybe about eight of us

2361
02:00:37,680 --> 02:00:42,320
Speaker 1: in the room, including um, his voice was in the room. Um,

2362
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:44,640
Speaker 1: that Ken Salazar who had been one of the secretary

2363
02:00:44,680 --> 02:00:46,840
Speaker 1: of the Interior. But then they had just people from

2364
02:00:46,880 --> 02:00:49,200
Speaker 1: different parts of the country who do this work and

2365
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:51,320
Speaker 1: some of what they were saying and kind of got

2366
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:53,440
Speaker 1: the article open here what we were saying, I'm sorry,

2367
02:00:53,720 --> 02:00:55,760
Speaker 1: and has the pictures of who everybody is so people

2368
02:00:55,800 --> 02:00:58,560
Speaker 1: can get a sense of that. Um. You know, it's

2369
02:00:58,640 --> 02:01:00,800
Speaker 1: everything from in terms of the what are the back

2370
02:01:00,880 --> 02:01:03,760
Speaker 1: stories of the outdoor spaces that you live in? You know,

2371
02:01:04,160 --> 02:01:06,720
Speaker 1: and we were saying here higher historians. What I would

2372
02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:09,880
Speaker 1: say the most fundamental level is kind of are doing

2373
02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:12,880
Speaker 1: your own discovery? What stories are you not hearing? You know,

2374
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:15,160
Speaker 1: it's so interesting about a piece of land, a piece

2375
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:18,440
Speaker 1: of wilderness, a piece of forest. We just sort of accept,

2376
02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:21,680
Speaker 1: you know what we've been told, but what else is there?

2377
02:01:22,040 --> 02:01:24,440
Speaker 1: And then when we know that, how does that change

2378
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:27,240
Speaker 1: the way we think about that space, you know? And

2379
02:01:27,320 --> 02:01:29,880
Speaker 1: who shows up in that space and who doesn't? Um?

2380
02:01:30,160 --> 02:01:32,800
Speaker 1: What does it mean to lobby local, state, and federal

2381
02:01:32,920 --> 02:01:36,440
Speaker 1: governments to create storytelling driven memorials. So one of the

2382
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:39,920
Speaker 1: things for me is that the great thing about land

2383
02:01:40,040 --> 02:01:43,400
Speaker 1: and public land in particular and forests, when we think

2384
02:01:43,440 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 1: about all the tensions around our differences and how it

2385
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:49,720
Speaker 1: seems like today we're just not getting along with each

2386
02:01:49,720 --> 02:01:52,960
Speaker 1: other and everybody's talking about us, then this divide and

2387
02:01:53,040 --> 02:01:54,600
Speaker 1: I would say, well, you know that stuff has always

2388
02:01:54,600 --> 02:01:57,800
Speaker 1: been there is a surfaced and it's actually an opportunity.

2389
02:01:58,360 --> 02:02:03,960
Speaker 1: What better place to set up sometimes these conversations our

2390
02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:07,080
Speaker 1: way to tell these stories differently than our public lands.

2391
02:02:07,320 --> 02:02:11,960
Speaker 1: There's the obvious, right because landing and of itself, and

2392
02:02:12,040 --> 02:02:14,720
Speaker 1: I don't mean to sound wool with this is healing.

2393
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:17,840
Speaker 1: We all need it. We're all here on it. Um,

2394
02:02:18,160 --> 02:02:22,000
Speaker 1: how do we use those spaces in our communities? So

2395
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, if you take a group of people on

2396
02:02:25,320 --> 02:02:28,240
Speaker 1: a walk through the woods, you know, how can we

2397
02:02:28,560 --> 02:02:30,440
Speaker 1: what can we open up in terms of what stories

2398
02:02:30,480 --> 02:02:32,760
Speaker 1: are there? In terms of everybody bringing their story into

2399
02:02:32,800 --> 02:02:36,400
Speaker 1: the woods with them. Let's have that conversation, you know,

2400
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:39,080
Speaker 1: and you could have them in the woods, right. Um.

2401
02:02:39,440 --> 02:02:41,600
Speaker 1: I think that's something everybody can do. I mean, of

2402
02:02:41,680 --> 02:02:45,480
Speaker 1: course there's um I'm looking at we had so many

2403
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:48,360
Speaker 1: things written down here, I'd be flexible with rules to

2404
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:51,080
Speaker 1: make visitors feel comfortable. They were talking very particularly about

2405
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:54,280
Speaker 1: public lands, and I would say in terms of hunting

2406
02:02:54,360 --> 02:02:57,320
Speaker 1: groups and the way people go out, you know and

2407
02:02:57,400 --> 02:02:59,920
Speaker 1: go hunting, I know, some rules need to be there

2408
02:03:00,240 --> 02:03:04,120
Speaker 1: for people's safety. And there's also sometimes it's just interesting

2409
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 1: in terms of how things are done. You know, people

2410
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:08,480
Speaker 1: will fall back on, well, this is how we've always

2411
02:03:08,560 --> 02:03:10,840
Speaker 1: done it, so that's why we're going to continue doing

2412
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:13,520
Speaker 1: it this way. But we're saying we want more diverse

2413
02:03:13,760 --> 02:03:16,800
Speaker 1: people to come join us. So I'm gonna say, you know,

2414
02:03:16,840 --> 02:03:18,760
Speaker 1: if you always do things in the same way, how

2415
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:21,800
Speaker 1: can you expect something different? You know? That's it's it's

2416
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:24,960
Speaker 1: kind of basic. So to really sort of reexamine some

2417
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:29,000
Speaker 1: of the cultural practices around how you organize when you

2418
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 1: go on hunting trips and where you choose to go

2419
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:33,760
Speaker 1: and what is it you know about that place before

2420
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:36,000
Speaker 1: you go there, and what you don't know? Um, and

2421
02:03:36,120 --> 02:03:38,840
Speaker 1: what does it mean to actually if you're really saying

2422
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:40,840
Speaker 1: we would love to have different people involved in no

2423
02:03:41,000 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 1: different people? You know, what does an invitation look like?

2424
02:03:45,040 --> 02:03:47,920
Speaker 1: And what does an invitation look like that isn't simply

2425
02:03:48,160 --> 02:03:51,480
Speaker 1: tokenizing that person? And what would it look like not

2426
02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:54,520
Speaker 1: to invite just one person who is different, Like if

2427
02:03:54,560 --> 02:03:56,920
Speaker 1: you're going to invite let's say an African American, I

2428
02:03:56,960 --> 02:03:59,560
Speaker 1: would just invite one to come along with me in

2429
02:03:59,600 --> 02:04:03,400
Speaker 1: the group that's did in that place, it's really a

2430
02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:08,120
Speaker 1: lot of pressure. You may want to get a cohort,

2431
02:04:08,280 --> 02:04:10,880
Speaker 1: like what does it need to before that had some

2432
02:04:11,040 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 1: conversations with you know, people in the community about that

2433
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:18,920
Speaker 1: and sort of and organized that trip together. So it's

2434
02:04:18,960 --> 02:04:21,880
Speaker 1: not one person making a decision for everyone else. So

2435
02:04:22,120 --> 02:04:26,760
Speaker 1: even in how hunting trips and and gatherings are organized, Um,

2436
02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:29,800
Speaker 1: what would it look like to And I'm not saying,

2437
02:04:29,840 --> 02:04:31,720
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not already doing this or your listeners

2438
02:04:31,760 --> 02:04:34,480
Speaker 1: aren't already doing this. But once you've hunted, you've you've

2439
02:04:34,520 --> 02:04:38,400
Speaker 1: caught some animals, you know, to have you know, maybe

2440
02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:41,160
Speaker 1: you know the skinning part and preparing the meat maybe

2441
02:04:41,160 --> 02:04:43,120
Speaker 1: a little hard for people who haven't done that before.

2442
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:45,600
Speaker 1: But what does it look like to have a meal

2443
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:48,800
Speaker 1: where you're people are invited to come to share with

2444
02:04:48,960 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 1: what you have that we want to invite you in

2445
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:52,920
Speaker 1: for this and and have that open up as an

2446
02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:57,080
Speaker 1: opportunity And ultimately what does it mean, you know, in

2447
02:04:57,200 --> 02:04:59,480
Speaker 1: terms of all of us having our freedom and agency

2448
02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:01,600
Speaker 1: to choose the things we want to do. At the

2449
02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:03,000
Speaker 1: end of the day, some of those people may not

2450
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:05,200
Speaker 1: want to still join you on the hunting trip, but

2451
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:07,720
Speaker 1: they may want to be in relationship with you and

2452
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:10,160
Speaker 1: support you so you can do what it is you

2453
02:05:10,240 --> 02:05:13,240
Speaker 1: want to do. Right, So to understand that, I would

2454
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:16,400
Speaker 1: say that the the intention doesn't have to be to

2455
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:19,640
Speaker 1: get more people hunting. The intention can be bigger than that,

2456
02:05:20,160 --> 02:05:22,480
Speaker 1: to be how do we are in support of each

2457
02:05:22,520 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 1: other and be part of this community. So it may

2458
02:05:25,120 --> 02:05:27,839
Speaker 1: mean that you'll get you will get some new hunters

2459
02:05:27,920 --> 02:05:30,520
Speaker 1: with you, and you might not get some other people.

2460
02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:33,520
Speaker 1: What doesn't mean that they won't be happy to come

2461
02:05:33,840 --> 02:05:35,720
Speaker 1: and help you cook up the food or just be

2462
02:05:36,440 --> 02:05:39,040
Speaker 1: be part of your community in a fuller way and

2463
02:05:39,160 --> 02:05:40,920
Speaker 1: make and so when you come to them and there's

2464
02:05:40,960 --> 02:05:44,120
Speaker 1: something on the that has to be voted on that's

2465
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:46,640
Speaker 1: gonna support those public lands so that you all could

2466
02:05:46,640 --> 02:05:50,560
Speaker 1: continue to hunt. You know, we know it's the numbers

2467
02:05:50,640 --> 02:05:53,240
Speaker 1: my friends, right, who's gonna be voting that, and someone

2468
02:05:53,440 --> 02:05:55,960
Speaker 1: like myself who's not thinking one way or the other

2469
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:59,200
Speaker 1: amount about it, who might overlook that vote just because

2470
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about that it's not part of my life.

2471
02:06:01,480 --> 02:06:03,760
Speaker 1: The difference is if I'm in relationship with you and

2472
02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:05,400
Speaker 1: I know who you are and saying, well, you know what,

2473
02:06:05,680 --> 02:06:07,720
Speaker 1: that doesn't really matter to me, but it matters to

2474
02:06:07,800 --> 02:06:10,880
Speaker 1: my friend Ben, So I'm actually gonna learn more about

2475
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:13,440
Speaker 1: it and I'm going to vote in favor to support

2476
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:16,560
Speaker 1: it for him. Yeah, And that's that's like the a

2477
02:06:16,640 --> 02:06:19,320
Speaker 1: great way to put it. And also for me just

2478
02:06:19,480 --> 02:06:22,320
Speaker 1: thinking from from reading your book and reading Jonathan Hall's article,

2479
02:06:22,760 --> 02:06:25,160
Speaker 1: and Hall is a little bit more direct about it

2480
02:06:25,200 --> 02:06:27,640
Speaker 1: than anybody, but like just saying like, hey, man, if

2481
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:30,720
Speaker 1: you're thinking about this and you're looking for that cultural

2482
02:06:30,800 --> 02:06:34,720
Speaker 1: competency and you're and you're thinking about these topics, you're

2483
02:06:34,760 --> 02:06:37,640
Speaker 1: already winning that battle a little bit. Because when you

2484
02:06:37,760 --> 02:06:40,480
Speaker 1: run into a guy that doesn't look like you're a

2485
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 1: young lady doesn't look like you and she's interested, You'll

2486
02:06:42,600 --> 02:06:44,480
Speaker 1: already be like, oh, yeah, you know what I could

2487
02:06:44,520 --> 02:06:46,120
Speaker 1: do to help this person out if if there is

2488
02:06:46,200 --> 02:06:48,400
Speaker 1: some barriers that I'm not seeing, is a little bit

2489
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:52,280
Speaker 1: understanding of like where we're going, what this place is,

2490
02:06:52,360 --> 02:06:54,360
Speaker 1: what it used to be, what they might be thinking.

2491
02:06:54,480 --> 02:06:58,480
Speaker 1: And that's worthwhile in any endeavor alone hunting, you know,

2492
02:06:58,840 --> 02:07:02,800
Speaker 1: it's like it's just city, really, yes, and that we

2493
02:07:03,480 --> 02:07:07,800
Speaker 1: always are a re examine of one's own assumption, you know,

2494
02:07:07,880 --> 02:07:10,320
Speaker 1: the assumptions that we have about someone else, what we

2495
02:07:10,440 --> 02:07:12,720
Speaker 1: think they don't know, what they think they won't like,

2496
02:07:13,080 --> 02:07:15,840
Speaker 1: what we think they're experiencing, and how we can be

2497
02:07:16,000 --> 02:07:19,000
Speaker 1: really wrong about that. Be pleasantly surprised actually to find

2498
02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:21,360
Speaker 1: out that oh they had that, you know, they have

2499
02:07:21,400 --> 02:07:24,160
Speaker 1: a family member who hunted, and actually they grew up

2500
02:07:24,200 --> 02:07:26,120
Speaker 1: with you know, like you know, just the things that

2501
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:30,160
Speaker 1: come out that we don't know about someone, um until

2502
02:07:30,200 --> 02:07:32,000
Speaker 1: we take time to get to know them right and

2503
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:34,160
Speaker 1: make space for that. Well, I'm definitely gonna do that.

2504
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:37,280
Speaker 1: And thanks thanks really for not only your work but

2505
02:07:37,360 --> 02:07:38,920
Speaker 1: just being open to come on and talk about this.

2506
02:07:39,000 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 1: Like I said, we're not going to just sit here

2507
02:07:40,440 --> 02:07:42,600
Speaker 1: and pat myself on the back for being willing to

2508
02:07:42,680 --> 02:07:45,440
Speaker 1: have this conversation the whole time. But like there's there's

2509
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,640
Speaker 1: a level of um, you know, just courage. It takes

2510
02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:50,840
Speaker 1: a step out and talk about this stuff and hit

2511
02:07:50,920 --> 02:07:54,560
Speaker 1: it head on, um and you know, and attack it

2512
02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:57,320
Speaker 1: because it does because we can agree. The one thing

2513
02:07:57,440 --> 02:08:00,760
Speaker 1: everyone listening here can't agree on is choper scent of hunting.

2514
02:08:00,920 --> 02:08:04,840
Speaker 1: Hunters being African American is not enough. Um. Hopefully we

2515
02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:06,600
Speaker 1: can all agree on that. I certainly think we can.

2516
02:08:06,720 --> 02:08:08,800
Speaker 1: So if we start from there, any of this conversation

2517
02:08:08,920 --> 02:08:13,080
Speaker 1: is good. Yes. And that again, even if you don't

2518
02:08:13,120 --> 02:08:16,000
Speaker 1: get more as many people as you would like hunting

2519
02:08:16,360 --> 02:08:19,520
Speaker 1: to get people to support those of you who do, right,

2520
02:08:20,240 --> 02:08:23,480
Speaker 1: that's you know, that can that has value? Right? Um?

2521
02:08:23,760 --> 02:08:26,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, and Ben, thank you, Look, thank you for

2522
02:08:27,040 --> 02:08:29,760
Speaker 1: having me on the show. Thank you for your willingness

2523
02:08:29,800 --> 02:08:32,440
Speaker 1: to make space for this conversation. For me, that's a

2524
02:08:32,600 --> 02:08:35,320
Speaker 1: huge part of it. It's just you know, I almost

2525
02:08:35,360 --> 02:08:37,800
Speaker 1: never say no to anyone, because that's really why I'm

2526
02:08:37,840 --> 02:08:40,720
Speaker 1: so overextended, because I'm always excited. I was like, oh,

2527
02:08:40,880 --> 02:08:43,840
Speaker 1: this is so cool, collect I'm gonna be I love

2528
02:08:43,880 --> 02:08:46,280
Speaker 1: it because it challenges me to think more broadly. It

2529
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:49,360
Speaker 1: challenges me to sort of re examine my own assumptions,

2530
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 1: and there's so much potential there for where we might go.

2531
02:08:52,400 --> 02:08:54,680
Speaker 1: So thank you for making the space and the time

2532
02:08:54,760 --> 02:08:58,120
Speaker 1: for me. This was fun. Well, you can go you

2533
02:08:58,160 --> 02:09:01,440
Speaker 1: can check out black Faces, White Spaces, or you can

2534
02:09:01,440 --> 02:09:03,440
Speaker 1: go to your website. And I did all that and

2535
02:09:03,560 --> 02:09:05,960
Speaker 1: just read as much as I could. And UM, just

2536
02:09:06,160 --> 02:09:08,240
Speaker 1: just get out there and be curious about this stuff everybody,

2537
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:11,200
Speaker 1: and it's it's never gonna hurt anything. Um, open her

2538
02:09:11,240 --> 02:09:13,880
Speaker 1: mind a little bit to it and see where it goes. Yeah,

2539
02:09:14,560 --> 02:09:21,920
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Carolyn. Okay, thanks Ben, I guess

2540
02:09:23,880 --> 02:09:26,440
Speaker 1: that's it. That's all. Another episode in the books. Thank

2541
02:09:26,440 --> 02:09:29,560
Speaker 1: you too, Miles Nalte. Thank you to Carolyn Finney. Thank

2542
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:31,680
Speaker 1: you to all of you for sticking with us through

2543
02:09:31,720 --> 02:09:35,440
Speaker 1: this ride and and through this topic. Um. I don't

2544
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:38,240
Speaker 1: want to overstate how fraud it is and keep saying that,

2545
02:09:38,360 --> 02:09:42,800
Speaker 1: but UM, it's just something I haven't heard discussed and

2546
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:44,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that we did so. I

2547
02:09:45,040 --> 02:09:48,760
Speaker 1: think it was done wonderfully by Carolyn, And thanks her

2548
02:09:48,840 --> 02:09:51,920
Speaker 1: so much for for spending the time with us. And

2549
02:09:52,040 --> 02:09:53,960
Speaker 1: we can to have her on and and folks like

2550
02:09:54,040 --> 02:09:57,720
Speaker 1: Jonathan hall On later in the podcast. So before we

2551
02:09:57,840 --> 02:10:01,040
Speaker 1: go uh here, as we I'll say, I'm gonna just

2552
02:10:01,200 --> 02:10:07,320
Speaker 1: rip a freestyle here Phil. It's Thanksgiving, man, like that's

2553
02:10:07,360 --> 02:10:10,160
Speaker 1: coming up in a couple of days, and there's a

2554
02:10:10,160 --> 02:10:12,000
Speaker 1: lot to be thankful for. But I will be super

2555
02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:15,680
Speaker 1: corny and saying that. Um, I'm I'm thankful for my family,

2556
02:10:16,480 --> 02:10:19,560
Speaker 1: my wife, my son, Uh, the support of a company

2557
02:10:19,600 --> 02:10:21,760
Speaker 1: like Mediator to let us put this on and let

2558
02:10:21,840 --> 02:10:25,200
Speaker 1: us get silly, get serious, go all over the place, um,

2559
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:29,760
Speaker 1: come up with names for mustaches and drink sparkly beverages

2560
02:10:30,120 --> 02:10:34,000
Speaker 1: and make jokes that all. Um. While it might seem

2561
02:10:34,760 --> 02:10:37,280
Speaker 1: it might seem a name, it's important to me that

2562
02:10:37,400 --> 02:10:40,120
Speaker 1: we can do this, um, and it's important to me

2563
02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:45,480
Speaker 1: that you all listen. So thank you for doing that,

2564
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:48,400
Speaker 1: and thank you to everybody that supports this show and

2565
02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:50,040
Speaker 1: helps us put it on. Right, Phil, you want to

2566
02:10:50,040 --> 02:10:52,720
Speaker 1: give some thank yous out there? Yeah, same thing as you,

2567
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 1: Uh family, I'm thankful for we Well, we made a

2568
02:10:57,760 --> 02:11:00,959
Speaker 1: joke in the opening about how I I felt unwelcome

2569
02:11:01,040 --> 02:11:03,560
Speaker 1: here because I'm a non hunter. That's right, but that

2570
02:11:03,680 --> 02:11:06,080
Speaker 1: could be that couldn't be further from the truth. Um,

2571
02:11:07,400 --> 02:11:09,640
Speaker 1: I've had many people being like, hey, let's bring it

2572
02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:11,840
Speaker 1: on your first hunt, and even though I had no

2573
02:11:12,280 --> 02:11:14,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm talking about, it's been very

2574
02:11:14,720 --> 02:11:17,600
Speaker 1: really really inclusive, and UM, I'm thankful to be uh

2575
02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:21,600
Speaker 1: be a part of it, and for you for just randomly.

2576
02:11:22,240 --> 02:11:23,960
Speaker 1: I think my one of my first days here, you

2577
02:11:24,200 --> 02:11:26,920
Speaker 1: started talking to me and I wasn't expecting it. On

2578
02:11:27,200 --> 02:11:29,800
Speaker 1: your podcast it was with Myles actually you were talking

2579
02:11:29,800 --> 02:11:32,760
Speaker 1: about beached whales or something like that, and I made

2580
02:11:32,800 --> 02:11:34,480
Speaker 1: a fool out of myself. But then you kept talking

2581
02:11:34,520 --> 02:11:37,440
Speaker 1: to me and now and now my mustache as a

2582
02:11:37,560 --> 02:11:41,240
Speaker 1: name and everyone knows who Mango is. Yeah, it's never

2583
02:11:41,560 --> 02:11:44,919
Speaker 1: you never know where well it's my pleasure, my pleasure.

2584
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:46,360
Speaker 1: You never know where things are going to go, but

2585
02:11:46,440 --> 02:11:49,640
Speaker 1: I do. We do. Just want everybody to know that, UM,

2586
02:11:49,720 --> 02:11:52,000
Speaker 1: we work hard at this, we want to get better.

2587
02:11:53,040 --> 02:11:56,000
Speaker 1: We take all the praise and all of um the

2588
02:11:56,080 --> 02:11:59,040
Speaker 1: criticism in the same manner and we're gonna keep on

2589
02:11:59,160 --> 02:12:03,240
Speaker 1: going here at the Hunting Collective and next episode, episode ninety.

2590
02:12:03,920 --> 02:12:06,760
Speaker 1: That's a lot um. So we're very thankful. Enjoy the

2591
02:12:06,800 --> 02:12:10,960
Speaker 1: holidays with your family, have fun, be merry, eat turkey,

2592
02:12:11,800 --> 02:12:16,320
Speaker 1: take naps. He too long because I can't go a

2593
02:12:16,440 --> 02:12:25,160
Speaker 1: week without doing run oh without run breaking out and

2594
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:46,480
Speaker 1: run absolutely wrong. Drinking in heaven, don't. Sitting at the

2595
02:12:46,680 --> 02:12:49,920
Speaker 1: possible would stop the row root. I'm feeling like aging.

2596
02:12:50,040 --> 02:12:52,760
Speaker 1: Hold on out, bar rosh shoes all down my