1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Body diets, but Joseph's gotten more. One of the benchmarks 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: I guess along my journey as a death investigator has 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: been homicides involving the elderly. And here's why a homicide 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: victim that has reached maturity in their life, and I'm 5 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: talking about chronological maturity, it has got a different kind 6 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: of melancholy to it from me. And here's why. You've 7 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: lived a long life. You've been embraced by people throughout 8 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: your life that loved you and that you loved. You 9 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: reached that age. And I would assume that many people 10 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: like I do, say, you know, sweet lord, please just 11 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: let me pass peacefully in my sleep. But what makes 12 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: it so tragic is that you lead a full life 13 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden it comes to an 14 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: end at the hands of a guy who is not 15 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: only now accused of murder, but has previously been identified 16 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: as a pedophile with a violent past. Joining you from 17 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State, Alabama, I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 18 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: and this is body Backs Day. The case of Martian Norman, 19 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: eighty two years old by the boy crept across my newsfeed, 20 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: and again it's one of those moments in time where 21 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: almost like you're driving down the road and something catches 22 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: in the corner of your eye and it truly makes 23 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: you want to do you turn to go back and 24 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: see if what you saw was accurate. And the reason 25 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: it caught my eye was the fact that we not 26 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: only have an elderly lady out in Washington State that 27 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: has been murdered, but someone took the time to dispose 28 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: of her in such a disrespectful manner where she has 29 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: been essentially encased in concrete. And we've had other cases 30 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: like this where not like this, but we've had other 31 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: cases of encasement. Okay, but this thing kind of happened 32 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: really rapidly, and thankfully, I don't want to bury the lead, 33 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: but I'm going to anyway. Thankfully, the police have identified 34 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: somebody that they think is responsible for this, and this monster, 35 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: and I will call this person a monster is off 36 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: the streets for the time being. 37 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: You're right for the time being, but I was concerned 38 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: as to how he ended up on the streets to 39 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: start with. Joe. But here's what we've got. We have 40 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: eighty two year old marsh And Norman, and she is missing. 41 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: Her family has not talked to her in a couple 42 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: of days. They're concerned. And as they were backtracking, when 43 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: was the last time you talked to her? When was 44 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: the last time you saw her? They came up with 45 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: a date of April first. It's now heading into April fourth. 46 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: And you know, at eighty two years old, when you're 47 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: in contact with family on a regular basis, at eighty two, 48 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 2: that's too long to not get you on the phone. 49 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: So they called for the old Let's do a welfare check. 50 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: How many of our stories start with that, a welfare check? 51 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: Here's this one. And when police go, they look inside 52 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: the house. Yeah, knock on the door and do all that. 53 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: But they realized that, well, her vehicles are in the driveway. 54 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: She has too, and they're both here. She is nowhere 55 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: to be found. And it looks like, based on the 56 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 2: way her home is, that she left in the middle 57 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: of washing dishes kind of thing. There are plates and 58 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: things that are in various stages of being cleaned. It's 59 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: like you had dinner and you started cleaning up, but 60 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: then you know, you got a phone call and took it, 61 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing, and gone. That's how 62 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: fast this happened. In terms of the way police are 63 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: looking at it. 64 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 3: Now. 65 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 2: When you've got dishes in the middle of being washed 66 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: and an eighty two year old woman who is missing, 67 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: you're going to backtrack to that date when was the 68 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 2: dinner that took place, because we know and that came 69 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: back to April first, and they identified her handyman, a 70 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: guy by the name of Jeff zizz z i zz Ziz. 71 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: He's a forty seven year old handyman and he is 72 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: the guy that was having dinner with her the night 73 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: of April first, when the dishes were partially cleaned, and 74 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: that's where this case begins in terms of searching for her. 75 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: They talk with Mistreszz a couple of times and they 76 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 2: already know him. He's in the system. He's in the 77 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 2: system though as a child molester. He has been convicted 78 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: or pled guilty rather to sexually abusing three children under 79 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: the age of fifteen. And that's why I said, I'm 80 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 2: concerned as to why he was out walking amongst the free. 81 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: Anybody that prays on children like that ought to not 82 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: be allowed out. But that's a different discussion for a 83 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: different day. I'm guessing at any rate, he's now the 84 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: hand no, no. 85 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no no. We're gonna have that 86 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: discussion right now. And here's why we're gonna have that discussion, 87 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: because I submit to you, brother Dave, that anyone you're 88 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: talking about the rubicon here. If you don't know the rubcon, 89 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: go back and read about Julius Caesar and he was 90 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: forbidden from crossing it. There. That's that's where we get 91 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: that saying you've crossed the rubicon. Now, let me submit 92 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: something to you. And again, okay, just just Joe Scott's 93 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: opinion here. 94 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: I'm with you, boss. 95 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: If you will rape, and we're gonna use word rape, 96 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: you've taught me that relative to children and adults. If 97 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna rape three kids, I believe in my heart 98 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: of hearts, you're capable of anything, and I mean anything, 99 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: and none of it's good. Now, there will be people 100 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: out there, Oh no, he's he's got some you know, 101 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: he's got redeemable qualities. Okay, you're going to let him 102 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: keep your kids or be around your kids? 103 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: Is that? 104 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: Is that what we're talking about here? Because I got 105 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: to tell you, anybody that would invest the time to 106 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: put themselves in a position so that they could rape 107 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: three kids, sexually molest them, take naughty pictures, do whatever 108 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: in the hell it is that that evil seed is 109 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: compelling him to do within his mind, look, killing grandmas, 110 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: It's not a far stretch as far as I'm concerned. 111 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: That's a good point. And when you mentioned that, you 112 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: know he was known to have been in her presence, 113 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: the evidence that I'm going to be looking for at 114 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: that scene, that would couple back and it should be 115 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: a very evidence rich environment. And just let me throw 116 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: out a few things to you. First off, the circumstantial 117 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: evidence if she was known to have prepared a meal. 118 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: And I find it interesting. You know you're talking about 119 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: washing dishes. You know, wee Kim and I wash all 120 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: of our dishes by hand. Now because even though we 121 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: have a dish washer, it's not really a dish washer. 122 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: It's a dish heater upper and wetter is essentially what 123 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: it does. It accomplishes nothing. So we wash all of 124 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: our dishes by hand. Well, what are you going to 125 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: be doing? Well, if you think she's a neat person, okay, 126 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: that every time she dirties up a dish, she washes it. 127 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: And so you'd have to go back up to the 128 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: family and say, you know what kind of person was she? 129 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: You know how she keep house and that sort of stuff. Well, 130 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: if you've got two place settings, okay, that's kind of confirmatory. 131 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: And how far how far had she gotten with a process? Well, 132 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: that brings us physical evidence, doesn't it. If you think 133 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: that you have like a dirty fork, dirty spoon, a knife, 134 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: a cup you know, only partially consumed coffee, maybe sitting 135 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: in the bottom, That's what I'm doing. I'm collecting those things. 136 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna check them for DNA. You don't think about it. 137 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: We always equate, you know, DNA evidence and those sorts 138 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: of things with sexual attacks. Okay, but you know there's 139 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: multiple different types of When you think about intimate contact 140 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: with items, Placing a cup to your lips, you know, 141 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: putting a fork in your mouth, you're bathing those utensils 142 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: in your saliva, which is a very good source, rich 143 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: source for DNA. So all of that would have to 144 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: be collected. What about the table, did they sit at 145 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: the table or did they eat at the breakfast bar? 146 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: You know what evidence might exist? There is there any 147 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: evidence of cleanup in the bathroom? You know, all of 148 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: these all of these things come into play. When you've 149 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: got this eighty two year old grandmother that has vanished 150 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: into the air because one of the things I'm going 151 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: to ask the family in regards to you know, did 152 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: she keep a neat house? I'm going to say, you know, 153 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: she's eighty two, what she suffering from any kind of 154 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: dementia related things? You know? Did she just wander off? 155 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: Was she predisposed to, you know, just walk out of 156 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: the house that sort of thing. You know, before you 157 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: would you would have to cross that barrier before you 158 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: ever went to mister Ziz and try to ascertain whether 159 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: or not he had had anything to do with that. 160 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: You just want to try to establish what her health 161 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: circumstances are. You should in any case, but particularly with 162 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: the elderly day. And that brings us to another part here. 163 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: She's eighty two. It's certainly not going to take too 164 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: much to overwhelm her, take her by surprise, perhaps rob 165 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: her of everything that she holds a deer and value. 166 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 3: Concluding her life. 167 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: David, you know you had mentioned Zizz in this child 168 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: molestation thing that's going on with him. This is not 169 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: something that's in his distant past. We're talking, am I correct? 170 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: Are we talking about something that has actually occurred within 171 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: this decade right now. 172 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: Actually, Jeff Ziz previously pleaded guilty to molesting three children, 173 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: all under the age of fifteen, and this happened in 174 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: October over of twenty twenty one. He pleaded guilty to 175 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: two counts of second degree child molestation and communication with 176 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: a minor for immoral purposes and that was when all 177 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 2: this was file doc to August of twenty twenty two, 178 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: and he is prohibited under the terms of this agreement. 179 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: And this is why I'm thinking, Joe, how is it 180 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: possible the guy pleads guilty to molesting, sexually assaulting, damaging 181 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: children for the rest of their life, three of them. 182 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: How is this man still walking amongst the free. 183 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. And here's the thing, Dave, thank god 184 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: he can't. He's not eligible to own a firearm until 185 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: twenty thirty two. That's one of the stipulations in this agreement. 186 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: And look, look, you know I'm being flippant there, and 187 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: I mean no disrespect to the court, because there are 188 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: so many of us that see these horrible things that 189 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: happen in the news, and automatically we our default position 190 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: is put them under the jail throw with a key, Okay, 191 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I think that many of us 192 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: would like to do that. I you know, I had 193 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: a discussion with a friend of mine not too long ago. 194 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: He had these same thoughts about people that are convicted 195 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: child molesters, and the topic of chemical castration came up. 196 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: Because you know, the old adage is is that you 197 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: know they're incurable, that you know that this is one 198 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: of those manifestations that occurs where they can't retreat from it. 199 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: They're still you know, compelled to participate in this behavior. 200 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: But you know, the court had no way of predicting behavior. 201 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: This isn't minority report. You can't look and see what 202 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: the future are. Now, there is some predictability, I think 203 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: if you go with this idea that they continue to molest. 204 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: But he took a different turn, didn't he, Dave. Because 205 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: if you're if you know, any of our colleagues over 206 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: in profiling, we're looking at this, I would think that 207 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: they would say, well, this is a bit of an outlier. Now, 208 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: they would look at this as objectively as they could. 209 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: They'd say, well, he's got a history of inappropriate behavior, 210 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: sexual contact, enticing, all those sorts of things. But now 211 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: what the police are saying is that he's, you know, 212 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: kind of bifurcated off of that, he's heading down a 213 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: road where he is alleged to have murdered an eighty 214 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: two year old woman, and that just those two things 215 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: don't seem to to equate. But yet again it goes 216 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: back to my underlying supposition that you know, I think 217 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: that once you're off into that world, you're numb to it, 218 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: and I think that anything's possible. You can still I 219 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: think that you're you know, all the barriers are down, 220 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: the walls are broken, there's nothing shackling you. The individual 221 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: could simply say to themselves, well, I've you know, they've 222 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: convicted me. Now all bets are off. It's a hopeless case. 223 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm just going to run rough shot over anybody I 224 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: come in contact with. And you know, and what's the difference. 225 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: You know, when you've got children that are weak, children 226 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: that are certainly not sophisticated in the ways of the world, 227 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: and you've got someone that's elderly, who might have some infirmity, 228 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: might be weak, might be lonely, and they just want company, 229 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, she's allegedly prepared a meal for 230 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: the guy that would end her life. 231 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: Dave. 232 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: I know, here's the thing, Joe is, when we talk 233 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: about jeff z is the handyman. I want to get 234 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: back to what he was actually sentenced. Okay, he was 235 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: sentenced in this when he pleads guilty to the sexual 236 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: molestation of three children. He of course you mentioned that 237 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: being prohibited from owning a firearm until twenty thirty two. Well, 238 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: he was actually sentenced to nine years in jail, but 239 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: was released after eleven months. Nine years in jail. Your sentenced, 240 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: but you get released after eleven months due to him 241 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: receiving credit for time served. He also is ordered to 242 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: serve six years of community custody or a supervised release 243 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: in rehab. But he sentenced to nine years. He doesn't 244 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: even spend one full year in custody. They cut him loose. 245 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: Now he's the handyman for eighty two year old Marsha Norman. 246 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: She cooks him dinner and then boom, she's missing. So 247 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: when police interview him a couple of different times, you 248 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: know they did start taking evidence. They are Yeah, I 249 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: guess that's the only way to put it. They were 250 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: taking evidence. Obviously is their person of interest. The guy 251 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 2: is out on you know, he should be in prison 252 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 2: right now, but he's not. He's the handyman for an 253 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: eighty two year old woman. So we're going to take 254 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: some clothes, some other items, and by the way, we're 255 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: going to take his car as well. And as they 256 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 2: are investigating, they've left him with no car. So what 257 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: does he do. He borrows a friend's car and beats feet, 258 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: he takes off Joe. When they come back to talk 259 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 2: to him again, he's gone. And that's where they have 260 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: already put together enough information to find out that he 261 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 2: has built a they called it a ram shackle cabin 262 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: or a shed rather, a ram shackle shed, not on 263 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: her property right there outside of Olympia, Washington. It's some 264 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 2: ways away from her home, the home of Marsha Norman, 265 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: and he has built this shed on this property. And 266 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 2: investigators decide to go look and lo and behold Joe. 267 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 2: They can tell there's been a lot of work going 268 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: on around this shed. I was reminded of the story 269 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: we did about the Kansas Mom's story that were buried, 270 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 2: and you talked about the impact of moving dirt and 271 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: what is left behind and how you know if you're 272 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: trained to look for such things. You can tell when 273 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: something's been dug up and buried. You can tell when 274 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: something is there that wasn't there previously and shouldn't be there. 275 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: And when police got to investigating this ramshackle shed, they 276 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: found the same thing something right here. 277 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're and you know you've got you've got a 278 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: couple of things at work here when you begin to 279 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: think about what's in the surrounding area. One terrifying little 280 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: note here is the fact that if he if he 281 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: built this you know, quote unquote ramshackle shed. First off, 282 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: how do they track him there? How do they find 283 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: out that he has this SHD? That's a big piece 284 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: to this. Secondly, I can tell you well, okay, go ahead, 285 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: all right. 286 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 2: You know, we got the story octogues that she went 287 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: and last time she was seen was April first. She's 288 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: reported missing April fourth. On April fourth, as they began investigating, 289 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: who's the first person they talked to Jeff Zizz, the handyman, 290 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 2: because hey, you're the last person to see her. You know, 291 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: he's admitted that last time anybody had contact with her 292 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 2: it was a six thirty on April first, And she's 293 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: been eating with a friend. Supposedly this handyman. Well, I'm 294 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: guessing I'm just spitballing here. Police, after their interview with him, decided, okay, guys, 295 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 2: let's keep an eye on him. Let's see what mister 296 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: Ziz does. Now he is a convicted child molester. Let's 297 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 2: see what he does. Well, they found out the day 298 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: after their investigation began, on April fifth, he threw together 299 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: the shed. So they obviously, no, no, obviously, I'm going. 300 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: To guess, Joe, Okay, go ahead. 301 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to guess that police use their 302 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: brain and they were keeping an eyeball on him and 303 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 2: saw him go into this area that they've referred to 304 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: as unrelated property and found him building his makeshift shed, 305 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 2: and that led them to go to a Okay, let's 306 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: put together a search warrant here. We need to look 307 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: at what's in this shed. And then wait a minute, 308 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 2: let's get a search warrant for what's under let's move 309 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,239 Speaker 2: the shed. And that's what they did. They actually they 310 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: got a warrant to move the shed and that had 311 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 2: just been built. 312 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you're going to go to this much 313 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: trouble building a shed, first off, when I hear this idea, 314 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: and these two things might seem unrelated, but I don't 315 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: think that they are relative to is past criminal behavior 316 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 1: recent past criminal behavior by the way, and the you know, 317 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: the disappearance of an eighty two year old grandmother. I'm 318 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: really thinking with shed, what was the purpose of creating it? 319 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: Was it the purpose of hiding something like a body? 320 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: Or was it purposed to hide activity? And you know, 321 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: that's a really chilling piece to this because if you've 322 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: got somebody that is involved in serialized crime and there 323 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: they have sadistic tendencies, Uh, most of that stuff that 324 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: they engage in cannot be done where you can be 325 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: seen to do it. So was this going to be 326 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: a multi purpose type of structure? Ramshackled as it might be? 327 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: How isolated was it? Is it going to have eyes 328 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: on it? Can you hear sounds emanating from it? How 329 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: much privacy does it provide? What's contained within the shed? 330 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: Hanging on the walls perhaps? Were there are things that 331 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: were there that would give you an idea that he 332 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: had other plans for things? And most importantly, how long 333 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: had this shed been planned for? You know, when you 334 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: begin to tear down the structure and remove it. How 335 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: well was it actually built? Anytime you hear that term ramshackled, 336 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: I think is an indication that this is kind of 337 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: a throw together. Either that or it was greatly aged. 338 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 1: And it seems like it didn't. You say that the 339 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: shed was thrown up pretty quickly, David. 340 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually thinking ramshackle is usually something to 341 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: describe something I built outside. Yeah. Yeah, they built that again, 342 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: another ramshackle shed. Yeah, this was actually something that they 343 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: started searching for her on April fourth, and on April 344 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 2: the fifth, the shed goes up in a day, and 345 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: it took him a couple of days to get the 346 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: search warrant, and it was April ninth when they actually 347 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: were able to get the search warrant. So it shows 348 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: you the amount of time shed gets built on the fifth, yeah, 349 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 2: and the night they're moving it. 350 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: And she's last seen on April the first, correct. So 351 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: if he has an awareness of this location and she 352 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: is transported to that location and we know that this 353 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: is not property that's associated with her, he has knowledge 354 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: of this. I got to tell you, man, I'd be 355 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: very interested to see the rest of this property may hold, 356 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: as far as anything else that has been out there. Okay, 357 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,959 Speaker 1: anything else that might be an indication of his activities 358 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: out there that pre date that April first time, because 359 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, I think that his when was his release date? 360 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: Wasn't it like back in twenty twenty two October? 361 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: Oh? 362 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, August of twenty twenty two. He was actually agreed 363 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: to the case. In October of twenty twenty one, he 364 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: played guilty and was sentenced to nine years in prison. 365 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: In August of twenty twenty two, he was cut loose. 366 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, I can't imagine that monsters retreat 367 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: into their cave and just kind of sit back and 368 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: twiddle their thumbs. He's now been unleashed on the public 369 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 1: from that wherever it was he was being held at 370 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: that particular time in state custody. If he is itching 371 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: to do something else nefarious, how long did it take 372 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: to kind of flip that switch in him? Was it 373 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: something immediately as soon as he walked out the door 374 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: of whatever facility that they were watching over him at. 375 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: How soon had he relocated to this area. I'd like 376 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: to know what the people that are in charge of 377 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: watching him, what did they know as far as his activities? 378 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: You know, because you got a register, so you'd be 379 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: on the state registry. Did he have a parole officer 380 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: that was keeping tabs on him? What did they know? 381 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: What was he saying he was doing for a living. 382 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: Was it actually a handyman? Did he have paste ups? 383 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: How many clients did he have? Are there any other 384 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: clients missing? Do any of those clients have children? Have 385 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: any of those individuals filed any kind of report with 386 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: the police about contact he may have had with them? 387 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: So if he's working as a handyman and he's a 388 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: convicted child molester, most of the time, you can't be 389 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: near a school, you can't be near kids, So, you know, 390 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: it kind of limits your clientele, you know, because if 391 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: you've got a family that has a you know, a 392 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: nuclear family where you've got a mom and dad and 393 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: you've got a couple of kids in the house. I 394 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: don't think by law he could go there and you know, 395 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: fix a leaky faucet, because he's prohibited from doing that. 396 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: And I think that his activities perhaps would be really 397 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: easy to trace if in fact he was being watched. 398 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: I guess probably the first time I ever came in 399 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: contact with construction where it was required of me to 400 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: mix up concrete. I was. It was after my freshman 401 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: year in college and I'd gotten a job building fences 402 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: and it turned out that everybody else building fences with 403 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: that was on that crew. That were like nine of them. 404 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: We worked for a local hardware store that did this 405 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: on the side. I was the only one that didn't 406 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: have to feel any conviction. And boy, was that an 407 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: eventful summer for a young man. I got to tell you, 408 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: I learned a lot. They were good guys. I mean 409 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: they really were, and they were, you know, all about 410 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: keeping their noses clean. Most of them. It had been 411 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: a long time since any of them had been in 412 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: the joint. But it's just a different vibe that you get. 413 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: And they were hard working. I mean, you know, we'd 414 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: start working like six in the morning, and of course, 415 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm low man on totem pole and so 416 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: I've got to haul the bags of concrete and I'm 417 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: the one that's responsible for mixing it up and then 418 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: delivering it to them as we're setting the post. Okay, wow, 419 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: and this is not easy. It's not Yeah, it's not easy. 420 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: And I was, you know, and I was, you know, 421 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: young and had a strong back and you know making 422 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: I don't know whatever, it was three dollars and twenty 423 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: five cents an hour. Yeah, no kidding, yeah, not anymore so, 424 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: but yeah, And it's it's a uh to mix it up, 425 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: particularly in the sense that if you're going to en 426 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: case something, uh, this is not this is not like 427 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: you're going out and getting a sack a quick crete 428 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: and digging a hole and you know, after you set 429 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: your post in there, then pouring the quick crete around it, 430 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: patting it down, letting it season and do all those 431 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: sorts of things. This is something that. 432 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 3: Is far far more involved. 433 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: Than than you know, simply trying to you know, fill 434 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: a hole. This is you're talking about a large amount 435 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: of this mixture having to be utilized and in order 436 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: to facilitate the covering, our encasement of a body. And Dave, 437 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: they after they got that she had torn down, fill 438 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: us in on what they found at that moment in 439 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: Tom because I kind of buried the lead here again. 440 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: They found miss eighty two year old Marcia Norman buried 441 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: under that shed and they said, partially encased in cement. 442 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: And Joe, I was looking through this because I was thinking, 443 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: was she cut up? And you know he put body 444 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: parts into cement, you know, but that's not what it says. 445 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: It says her body was encased in cement. We know 446 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: that she went was last see in April. First, we're 447 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: now talking, you know, several days have gone, and by 448 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: what are we talking about in terms of her body 449 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: and the smell, the decomposition, the condition of her body. 450 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: What what are we talking about in cement? Is it 451 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: going to freeze time or is it going. 452 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: To Yeah, yeah, it's not going to freeze time. Just 453 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: always remember this with any burial, particularly an encasement, when 454 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: you don't freeze time. However, anything that is at you know, uh, 455 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: a trace evidence level that you bury with the body, 456 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: that bit of it is kind of frozen in time. 457 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: You're preserving. It's ultimate and preservation. Now concrete cement, Yeah, 458 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: if you you know, if you've got the body kind 459 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: of raw in there and you're pouring concrete around it, 460 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: it's not cocooned like in a bit of plastic or 461 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: a shower curtain or something like that, that concrete is 462 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: going to take things away when you chip it off. 463 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: That's what's kind of fascinating about this from an evidentiary standpoint, 464 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: because as that stuff is particulated, whether it be at 465 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: the scene. First off, you're talking about several hundred pounds 466 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: block of concrete. All right, just let that set in. 467 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: No point intended there, but let that set in in 468 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: your mind relative to just the movement of the remains. Now, 469 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: are you going to knock off those pieces at the 470 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: scene and do it in an uncontrolled environment? Because outdoors 471 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: in a wooded area is not controlled from an evidentiary standpoint. Okay, 472 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: you're really walking a fine line there because you don't 473 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: have the environment necessarily to facilitate collection of everything that 474 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: might come off and to be able to identify it appropriately. 475 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: Do you fork lift it out of there? Or put 476 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: a skid steer and lift it onto the back of 477 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: the truck, lash it down and take it back to 478 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: the mork. I've seen that done. And then you get 479 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: hammers and chisels and you be able to knock off everything. 480 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: Joe, I am so sorry, but all right, you're you're 481 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 2: talking about lifting a body in case in cement, Yes, 482 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: lifting it up all in one piece and loading it 483 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: onto the back of a truck. Yeah, covering over with 484 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: a tarp. 485 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. And one and toting it, yeah and one, and 486 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: we do that with cars all the time. People don't 487 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: understand that. You'd be surprised what rides down the road 488 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: next to you is you're going down the highway. I've 489 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: had I remember, believe it or not. You remember you 490 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: Go cars, You goes? 491 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the death trap things. 492 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I had had five guys that died in a 493 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: you Go fire one time on in Atlanta. And matter 494 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: of fact, it was the hottest. The car caught fire 495 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: and it's the only time I was working that case. 496 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: And it was in the dead of summer. And you know, Dave, 497 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: I remember when I used to wear Magnum boots cop 498 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: boots because they would they'll take anything. They were still towed, 499 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: still healed, and I could go out and you know, 500 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: not have something pierce my foot or fall on it. 501 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: But anyway, I just had a memory about this. The 502 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: asphalt actually melted beneath my feet, and my feet were 503 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: held in place. On eighty five in Atlanta. I was 504 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: having to forcefully pull my feet out. And what we 505 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: decided was the tires had melted off of the scene 506 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: and these guys had been working at the airport. They 507 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: were from Honduras, and they were all living in the 508 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: same apartment. And what they would do at the airport, 509 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: which is on the south side of Atlanta, that would 510 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: clean planes. It's hard work. They were a cleaning crew 511 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: that would clean planes, and they would do it overnight 512 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: and then they would all go back to their apartment 513 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: which is kind of northeast of Atlanta, sleep all day, 514 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: get up, and go back down there and do it again. Well, 515 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: somebody rear ended them and a classic Yugo kind of thing, 516 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: and the gas tank is literally underneath the bench seat 517 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: in the back seat, and the whole thing just goes 518 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: up and flame. Well, we trucked that car, and this 519 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: is just one example that I have. We trucked that 520 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: one car with five bodies in it on a flatbed 521 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: to a garage where we could, you know, exricate the 522 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: bodies and work them and that sort of thing. It 523 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: would be the same principle here with miss Norman, because 524 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: if this is an encasement, and I find it very 525 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: interesting that they have stated this is a partial encasement, 526 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: which goes to probably hurried and not well prepared, you're 527 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: still going have to free her up from that. To 528 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: what degree did they go with the you know, uh 529 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: uh particulating the stuff, you know, at the scene. Did 530 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: they strap you know, dig underneath it, put straps, you know, 531 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: beneath it, and then lock it onto like a skit steer, 532 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: lift it up, put it on the back of a 533 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: flat bed, and then cover it with a tarp and 534 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: take it to a facility, either the crime lab, garage 535 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: or maybe even into the morgue. Uh if you've got, 536 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: if you've got the facility in order to handle this 537 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: and then chip away you know, this this substance that 538 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 1: she's been you know, encased in, you know. And I've 539 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: even had bodies that were discarded in garbage cans that 540 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: they brought the whole garbage can in with the body. 541 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: And that way you can really photographic photograph the the 542 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: not just the body, but the container and the context 543 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: of the body with and the container. So my thought 544 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: is they would want to get her body back to 545 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: a controlled area where and when you said and the 546 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: reason I mentioned about the partial the partial encasement is 547 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: that's kind of a descriptor Dave that you mentioned, because 548 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: how powerful would it be? And trust me, they've got 549 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: photos of this and they can be shown in court 550 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: maybe he didn't encase her whole body. Maybe her neck 551 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: and her head were still visible, but the rest of 552 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: her body is encased in. Maybe a single arm is 553 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: hanging out, maybe both of her feet are hanging out, 554 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: because I don't know if he ratioed this right relative 555 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: to how much concrete mix he would have. Did he 556 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: have access to water, did he have a mixer out there? 557 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: Because this is a labor intensive work. And then you 558 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: had mentioned the thought of what she dismembered before she 559 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: went in there. I don't know. It's a real head scratcher, 560 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: and it creates all kinds of problems for us in forensics. 561 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: There is a real upside in sense that what is 562 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: encased in there, or you know, if you want to 563 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: call it an entumbein I guess you could. But whatever 564 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: is encased in there, you haven't really frozen it in time, 565 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: but you've kind of held it. It's a placeholder for 566 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: you where you can collect evidence. But as you chip 567 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: the stuff away, there might be hairs that are caught 568 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: up in this. You know, this concrete that is drying 569 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: all the while, and then as you pull it away, 570 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: those hairs go with it. And how far are you 571 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: going to go with pulverizing, you know those big chunks 572 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: that you chip off the body to look for a 573 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 1: single hair that might be contained in there. So it's 574 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of a nightmare scenario for you as an investigator. 575 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: Also any kind of injuries, which, by the way, my 576 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: understanding is they haven't released a specific cause of death 577 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: with miss Norman, is that correct. 578 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 2: Day They haven't, And that's what I have been watching 579 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: to see what we would get because this is an 580 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 2: ongoing case. It just happened in the last couple of weeks, 581 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 2: and information is not going to be forthcoming until they 582 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 2: actually because they've got him in custody. And actually, the 583 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 2: way police are going to go forward with this is 584 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: when Jeff Zizz left the state, he violated his parole 585 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 2: and now it can be sentenced. He can be put 586 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: back in prison for the full term. He's still had 587 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: eight years on that term. So they know where their 588 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: suspect is. They've got him contained, so they can take 589 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: their time on proceeding with this here on out, and 590 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 2: so they don't have to give out information to us 591 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 2: for anything. They don't have to rush anything now, No, 592 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: they don't. We haven't gotten anything. 593 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: They don't By the way. 594 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 2: Jeff is is a former pastor. 595 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: Joe Lovely. Yeah, and you no comment. I just I see, 596 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: I see what has taken place with him. And it's 597 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: heartbreaking to think that, you know, her grandbabies, even if 598 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: they're grown adults, they're still her grandbabies, her kids, her 599 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: extended family, all of her friends that she's made. Remember 600 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: she's had eighty two years to acquire relationships, hasn't she. 601 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: And that's that's all gone. It's all gone. And the 602 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: terrifying thing about this, and I agree with the sheriff, 603 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: is that it was it was preventable. It was preventable. 604 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: I had the lawmakers not created these circumstances where he 605 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: could be out among those that are choosing to abide 606 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: by laws and are choosing to not go into this 607 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: really dark area in their life, and you know, just 608 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: trying to, I don't know, satiate those desires because I 609 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: know this, I know that you're never going to bring 610 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: bring back Ms. Norman and just like those kids that 611 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: he molested, you're never going to bring back their innocence 612 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: on any level. But the one thing that's waiting in 613 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: the wings are answers. Hopefully, and hopefully one more thing. 614 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: Hopefully this is going to be a wake up call 615 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: for the people in Washington State and particularly the legislators 616 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: out there, that sometimes, sometimes it's so much better for 617 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: individuals that are charged with heinous crimes to face the music. 618 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.