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Speaker 1: What's torturing my people who have not, in most cases

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Speaker 1: committed a crime or at least been convicted of it. Ah,

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Speaker 1: Jesus ship, that was a bad introduction. Um, this is

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards, the podcast that is incompetently introduced and

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Speaker 1: competently produced by by my producer Sophie. I'm Robert Evans,

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Speaker 1: the weak link in this in this chain. UM, here

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Speaker 1: to talk with my guests this week. Noah shacked. Mean, Noah,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing? What's up? Man? That intro really

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Speaker 1: was fucking deplorable. Yeah, it was horrible. It was horrible.

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Speaker 1: I was going to start with what's concentrating my camps?

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Speaker 1: But I figured that I should have dove in. I

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Speaker 1: should have gone for it. Come on, Noah, you are

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Speaker 1: about to be fixing to be as we say. Where

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Speaker 1: I come from the editor of Rolling Stone. You've been

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Speaker 1: editing editor in chief the Daily East for since what

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Speaker 1: two that's eighteen? Right? Um, We've used I mean we

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Speaker 1: I use Daily Beast articles constantly as sources on this show.

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of your work, have been for

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Speaker 1: a while. You worked at Wired, you were embedded with

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Speaker 1: the Iraqi the Bagdad bomb Squad at one point right.

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Speaker 1: That was a story you did earlier. In your story,

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Speaker 1: you've done a bunch of cool ship. Um, a real

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Speaker 1: journalists journalist, uh, and now you're gonna sit down with

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Speaker 1: me uh and talk about a real shitty person. So

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Speaker 1: how how are you feeling? Noah, I'm feeling great. I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling great. And I gotta say the the staff of

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Speaker 1: the Daily Beast are all like collectively huge fan boys. Uh. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's great to hear. Fair, we were talking about the

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Speaker 1: show funck Boy Island. I feel yes, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Daily be staff is itself a fun boy island behind

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Speaker 1: the bastards. You could have just left it at a

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Speaker 1: funck boy Island and then never explained the rest of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: can't call hrmy now I'm leaving. Motherfucker's No. How do

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Speaker 1: you What do you know about a little fella fun

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Speaker 1: little guy named Joe R. Pio. Oh yeah, like that's

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Speaker 1: that's the right answer. Yeah, I'm like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: certainly know he is uh no friend to the immigrant community.

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Speaker 1: That would be a fair statement. I certainly know that

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Speaker 1: he has not been a model for m police reform

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Speaker 1: in this country. That would also be a fair answer.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like he's always one of those guys like, Um,

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Speaker 1: I knew he was bad. I would read the episodic coverage,

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Speaker 1: but I always knew there was more. And uh, I thought,

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Speaker 1: if only there was going to be a multipart podcast

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Speaker 1: that could explain to me exactly how shitty this motherfucker was. Well,

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Speaker 1: miraculously there is one, and it's it's this podcast right here.

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Speaker 1: And also, my cats figured out how to open the

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Speaker 1: front door to the house. I'm not sure how that happened,

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Speaker 1: but that death that just occurred, Yeah, yeah, they're probably

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Speaker 1: agents of the of the Merricopa County Sheriff's Department. So

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Speaker 1: Joe R. Pio is interesting because he's at he's at

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Speaker 1: the crossroads of a lot of things. He will claim,

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Speaker 1: um that he's the guy who kind of provided the

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Speaker 1: blueprints in a lot of ways for how Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: organized and focused his not not not necessarily for how

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Speaker 1: he uh he won election, but for how he kind

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Speaker 1: of responded and used the media. Um. And I actually

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Speaker 1: think our Pio is a narcissist, right like or that's

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Speaker 1: not a clinical definition, but he thinks highly of himself.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think that's an unfair statement. Necessarily to

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Speaker 1: make You can see in a lot of the way

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Speaker 1: Joe uses the media through his career, a lot of

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Speaker 1: Trumpian stuff. Um. He's an interesting guy, and he's kind

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Speaker 1: of also at he's he's been. This guy's a long

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Speaker 1: career in law enforcement. He's the sheriff America County for

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Speaker 1: the twenty four years, UM. And so he kind of

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Speaker 1: straddles a few different eras in the evolution of American

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Speaker 1: law enforcement to what it is today, starting with like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the the horrible, horrible crime spree that we

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Speaker 1: had in like that kind of reached its peak in

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Speaker 1: nine that's about when he comes into office. Um. And

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Speaker 1: he rides that through to the start of the War

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Speaker 1: on Terror and like the big immigration panics of the

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Speaker 1: of the mid aughts. Uh. And he stays in office

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Speaker 1: right up until Trump's elections. So he's he's an incredibly

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Speaker 1: influential guy, both in the way he uses the media

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Speaker 1: as a right wing politician and in what he is

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Speaker 1: what he represents as a law man. UM. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's there's there's a lot of good reasons to study

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Speaker 1: to our bio um, and also just a lot of horrible,

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Speaker 1: horrible stories. We're gonna try to balance the two because

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Speaker 1: I don't want to just make this misery porn, but

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Speaker 1: there is a lot of that in Um. Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 1: So Joseph Michael R. Pio was born on June fourteenth,

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Speaker 1: ninety two in Springfield, Massachusetts. His parents were Italian immigrants,

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Speaker 1: and our Pio would later insist in interviews they came

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Speaker 1: through Ellis Island legally. He says this a lot because

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Speaker 1: he becomes a big anti immigration guy after a certain point,

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Speaker 1: although not originally. Um. Now, it's true that his parents

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Speaker 1: did immigrate legally into the United States, but the reality

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Speaker 1: of the situation is more complex than that. His father, Cerro,

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Speaker 1: fled Italy during the reign of Benito Mussolini in n

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Speaker 1: three for reasons that should be obvious. Not a lot

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Speaker 1: of good reasons to stay in Italy in nineteen Um,

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Speaker 1: unless you're a really specific kind of dude. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's kind of ironic, right, given who who are

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Speaker 1: Pio the camps? Yes, and given that a lot of

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Speaker 1: the people he's locking up are people who are fleeing

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Speaker 1: their own authoritarian leaders. Yeah. Um. And and Cerro comes

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Speaker 1: very close to not being let in the United States.

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Speaker 1: So at the time that he's immigrating to the US,

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Speaker 1: we have an immigration up. And so he sets sail

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Speaker 1: on a steamship that's leaving Italy alongside like ten other

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Speaker 1: immigrant ships, and everyone knows when they all set sail,

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Speaker 1: only the first one or two boats are going, like

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Speaker 1: the only the first couple of boats, the people in

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Speaker 1: them are going to be able to immigrate because then

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Speaker 1: the quota will no one else is going to be

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Speaker 1: allowed I legally. So that's and and like newspapers are

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Speaker 1: covering the race between all these immigrant ships. Who's going

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Speaker 1: to get into be citizens? Oh my god, Yeah that's

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Speaker 1: the man. That's Yeah, it's a nightmare, just sitting on

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Speaker 1: a boat for weeks, Like it's a steamship, it's not

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Speaker 1: that fast, and just like not knowing if you're just

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Speaker 1: gonna get sent back to the ocean. Um sent back

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Speaker 1: to Mussolini. Yeah, it's horrifying. Um that said the President A. Wilson,

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Speaker 1: which is the steamship that Zero his dad is on.

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Speaker 1: Is the President Wilson? Like what it was going to

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Speaker 1: appeal to? I think I think that's what the Italians

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Speaker 1: were thinking. Uh yeah, we got the name of everyone's

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Speaker 1: favorite president. Uh that boat did win though. It was

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Speaker 1: the first of these ships into New York harbor. Um

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, so they get to be citizens. So

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Speaker 1: Joe's family's story here starts with a hell of a

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Speaker 1: lot of luck. I mean, it's just it's just so crazy,

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Speaker 1: Like you, your family comes here on the dumbest of

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Speaker 1: dumb reasons, and it's like what they like happened to

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Speaker 1: you know, hit a tide or hit a hit a

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Speaker 1: end just right, and otherwise they'd be back in, like

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Speaker 1: he's bragged, or they'd have come in illegally, right, A

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Speaker 1: lot of people did do that. But he's like bragging

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Speaker 1: about my family did it their right. We was like, no,

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Speaker 1: your family got lucky because racists were trying to limit

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Speaker 1: how many Italians could come into the country. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: Joe's mother, Josephine, was also an Italian immigrant. She taught kindergarten,

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Speaker 1: and she was the daughter of the publisher of Springfield's

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Speaker 1: Italian language paper. Uh Cerro met Josephine when he placed

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Speaker 1: ads for his new grocery store in the paper. He

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Speaker 1: starts a grocery store not long after he moves to

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Speaker 1: the country. The two were married when she was twenty

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Speaker 1: two and he was thirty, so he'd been in the

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Speaker 1: US seven or eight years at this point, right when

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Speaker 1: he gets married to this lady. They had Joe a

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Speaker 1: year later, and it was a horrible, horrible labor Um.

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Speaker 1: Josephine died nine days after giving birth to Joe R.

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Speaker 1: Pio of a pulmonary edema. The local paper called her

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Speaker 1: death sudden and obviously a horrific thing for the whole family. Um.

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Speaker 1: Decades later, when he ran for governor, Joe put out

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Speaker 1: a kind of a biography as a very succinct biography

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Speaker 1: of himself UM on the early live section of his

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Speaker 1: website Sorry when he ran for Congress, Uh, and he

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Speaker 1: noted that he had a quote tough start in life,

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Speaker 1: which is fair. Losing your mom at nine days old

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Speaker 1: is a tough start in life, to be certain. Um.

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Speaker 1: In his biography he claims that his dad owned a

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Speaker 1: small grocery store in town, while the New Yorker profile

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Speaker 1: claims he owned grocery stores. I'm not sure which of

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Speaker 1: those is more accurate. I really have been able to

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Speaker 1: find much detailed. They definitely paint somewhat different pictures of

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Speaker 1: the family socio economic status, obviously. Um. Either way, Cyri

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Speaker 1: was very busy with work and did not have time

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Speaker 1: to take care of his son. Joe was raised by

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Speaker 1: friends and family. Now Joe claims that he was an

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Speaker 1: accomplished athlete and an average student, but Terry Green Sterling

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Speaker 1: and Jude Joffey Block, who wrote a book about our

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Speaker 1: Pio titled Driving while Brown, paint a less pleasant picture

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Speaker 1: of his time in school. Quote Joe R. Pio had

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Speaker 1: a difficult time in school. He struggled to get passing

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Speaker 1: grades and often bore the brunt of anti immigrant taughts.

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Speaker 1: Dago wop guinea. He took it, pretended to ignore it,

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Speaker 1: because that's what you did back then, he told us. So,

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Speaker 1: Joe suffers a lot of they immigrant racism as a kid,

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Speaker 1: which is believable. God, and the abuser the abuse becomes

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Speaker 1: the abuser. Yeah, I mean that is that is the

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Speaker 1: story here. Um, And it's you know, it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things. Um. He's definitely by the time he's grown up,

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Speaker 1: the thirties were not quite at the height of kind

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Speaker 1: of anti Italian racism, but it is still like a

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Speaker 1: pretty common thing. And his family is working class Italian.

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Speaker 1: There's there's certainly a lot of bigotry that he's he's

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Speaker 1: growing up in and around Um. When Joe turned eighteen,

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Speaker 1: he joined the army. There was a draft on at

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Speaker 1: the time, so this may have been more him accepting

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Speaker 1: in inevitability than doing a patriotism talked to my grandpa

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Speaker 1: was kind of in the same generation, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of guys joined the army because it was like, well,

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Speaker 1: if you join, you get to pick your branch, you

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Speaker 1: have some choice in what you do is supposed to

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Speaker 1: just kind of waiting for your number to come up. Um.

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Speaker 1: The Korean War started immediately after he joins, and Joe

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Speaker 1: later wrote quote, I wanted a piece of the Act,

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Speaker 1: but his luck would have it. Instead of heading off

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Speaker 1: to combat, the army saw an unusual talent in the

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Speaker 1: young Joe R. Pio something other men my age knew

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Speaker 1: nothing about typing some instead of issuing the off the

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Speaker 1: Korean the army. But wait a minute. This like a

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Speaker 1: guy who purports himself to be the tough guy of

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Speaker 1: all tough guys, meaner the mean sheriff, American's toughish sheriff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a fucking typist. He was the typest. Oh, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's great there's some real questions because he brags

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Speaker 1: a lot about all the gunfights he's in as a

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Speaker 1: law man. Later and there's some serious questions as to

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Speaker 1: whether or not he's ever seen in coming fire. Um.

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Speaker 1: And this is like, obviously there's no shame in being

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Speaker 1: a typist or whatever in the military, but the way

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Speaker 1: he frames this is fat because he he needs you

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Speaker 1: to know, because of the guy he is. He needs

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Speaker 1: you to know he really wanted to fight, he wanted

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Speaker 1: to see combat. But gosh, darnett, he was just so

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Speaker 1: good at type um because I mean, it's America needed

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Speaker 1: as the North Koreans were coming down the peninsula and

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Speaker 1: one thing they needed for the Incheon landing there was

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Speaker 1: one touch type mastered the Corty keyboard saved all of

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Speaker 1: those Marines at the Chosen Reservoir. My grandpa was in

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Speaker 1: Korea and he kind of like by surprise, he had

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Speaker 1: been stationed in Korea before the fighting started and he

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Speaker 1: was just there as a medic. He was there the

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Speaker 1: whole war. Um, And I think would have given anything

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Speaker 1: to have not had those experiences after he had them,

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Speaker 1: Like it's you can tell the kind of guys who

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Speaker 1: never got into it but built this image of themselves

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Speaker 1: as a tough guy and really wish they'd seen something

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Speaker 1: that I think had he experienced combat in Korea, probably

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Speaker 1: would have wished he'd done anything else for his time,

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Speaker 1: because it was a pretty horrible war. Yeah, even for

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Speaker 1: wars COREA was really bad. Is that true about all

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Speaker 1: these fucking yes want to be fashismo types, right, It's

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Speaker 1: like none of them actually see any action. I mean,

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Speaker 1: with the exception of I suppose one Austrian. But other

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Speaker 1: than that, yeah, you're getting at Hitler that, but I

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Speaker 1: mean they really like they never see any action. They

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Speaker 1: just sit on the sidelines and and and you know, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, totally would have done it if it

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Speaker 1: wasn't from my bone spurs. He totally would have done

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Speaker 1: it if it wasn't for my fucking killing typing. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's it's this frustrating aspect of American of the American

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Speaker 1: hawk culture, where not that you you definitely do I

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Speaker 1: don't want to like paint it. There's definitely some hawks

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Speaker 1: out there who saw some serious combat, but it's not

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Speaker 1: most people who do that. And the ones who I

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Speaker 1: think it was, I think he was Jim Jordan, who

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Speaker 1: just posted a video of himself like firing a machine

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Speaker 1: gun at arrange and just looking looking miserable doing it

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Speaker 1: like he's got it braced in this like really like

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Speaker 1: he's not. He's shooting it like somebody who's scared of

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Speaker 1: the gun he's using as opposed like none of them ever,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. They never pull any of this off,

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Speaker 1: like they all It's like it's like Ted Cruz trying

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Speaker 1: to or or Jeb Bush posing with his monogrammed handgun.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you obviously don't and that's fine, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to like this stuff. What stop pretending? Stop? Was

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Speaker 1: Jim Jordan's in Like did he wear a jacket that

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Speaker 1: one time? To machine gun? Um? Opposing what? You know?

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Speaker 1: How like he never wears a jacket? Is this a thing? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not aware. I don't know much about I think.

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Speaker 1: I mean it may I may be getting it wrong.

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Speaker 1: It may not be Jim Jordan's um, which case I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm ashamed. Um now I'm googling Jim Jordan's machine gun. Yeah, hm,

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Speaker 1: I see something about machine gun Kelly boyfriend. I also

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Speaker 1: think somebody has somebody backing up with a really a

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Speaker 1: loud truck. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm calling from New York.

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Speaker 1: Never apolicize. Are we here to talk about trucks and

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Speaker 1: machine gun Kelly? Yes, yes, yes, but so yeah, Joe,

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Speaker 1: the way he frames this, he needs to let you

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Speaker 1: know that he desperately wanted to fight, but he was

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Speaker 1: just so good at typing. But he also wants you

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Speaker 1: to know that him being in the army like equipped

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Speaker 1: him with key skills that made him a badass cop.

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Speaker 1: So he continues after stating that the military had preferred

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Speaker 1: him typing and fighting. He goes on to write, so

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Speaker 1: instead of issuing me off to Korea, the army put

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Speaker 1: me in the military's Medical Detachment Division, where report writing

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Speaker 1: skills and interviewing techniques were critical. And this is where

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Speaker 1: we get to a really interesting discrepancy in his background,

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Speaker 1: as will become clear Joe. As we've talked about Joe

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Speaker 1: as a real vested interest in wanting people to see

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Speaker 1: him as a warrior, but since he didn't do any

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Speaker 1: cool stuff in the army. In his own bio, he

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Speaker 1: uses that section to immediately pivot towards his career in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, saying, the Army never got me over to Korea,

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Speaker 1: but it did get me abroad for a while. That's

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Speaker 1: where I was bitten by wanderlust. Little did I know

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Speaker 1: then that France would be the first of many foreign

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Speaker 1: countries where I would be sent to fight crime. After

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Speaker 1: getting a taste of what a cop would be like

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Speaker 1: in the military, I was discharged from the Army and

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Speaker 1: immediately signed up to be a streets cop in one

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Speaker 1: of the toughest cities in America, Washington, d C. Now

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Speaker 1: do you see the nonsense there, Because he's not being

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Speaker 1: a cop in the army. He's doing medical paperwork. That's

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Speaker 1: not he's not fighting crime in France. He's like filing

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Speaker 1: out v A forms and which is again a necessary job,

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Speaker 1: but is not anything like police work. What the fighting

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Speaker 1: crime by get their doctor disappointments right to make sure

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Speaker 1: that like their chlamydia gets treated in from it's very

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Speaker 1: it's very funny. He wants you to like see this

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Speaker 1: direct line that he's kind of like just building up

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Speaker 1: to be a great, great warrior cop. So yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then he goes straight to d C. Well not quite. Actually,

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Speaker 1: what he doesn't say in his his sanitized biography that

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Speaker 1: he wrote for his campaign is that he didn't immediately

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Speaker 1: go into being a d C cop. He actually attempted

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Speaker 1: to join the U. S. Border Patrol, but he flunk

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Speaker 1: to the entry test for the border which is I

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Speaker 1: think the test is mainly can you hold a gun

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Speaker 1: in your hands? And are you angry all the time?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, I couldn't get in. Couldn't get

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Speaker 1: into the fifties border patrol. Oh my god. So this guy,

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Speaker 1: who like his family is an immigrant family, gets here

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Speaker 1: at a dumb fucking look. Then he can't even he

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Speaker 1: types his way out of fighting in Korea and Korea. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Then he tries to kick it out on immigrants by

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Speaker 1: joining the border patrol, and he can't even do that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they won't take him. He failed, he flunks out. So thankfully,

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Speaker 1: if you're not good enough to be in the border

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Speaker 1: patrol at this point in time, at least you can

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Speaker 1: still be a DC cop. And he doesn't do this

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Speaker 1: for long. In fact, over the next three years he

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Speaker 1: has four different law enforcement jobs. Now, when he talks

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Speaker 1: about his time as a d C cop, he consistently

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Speaker 1: describes it as a black neighborhood, like he needs you

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Speaker 1: to know that was that was where he patrolled in

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Speaker 1: one interview, he admitted I was a pretty aggressive cop,

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Speaker 1: made more arrests than anybody in the precinct. Not that

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Speaker 1: I was prejudiced. I wasn't prejudiced. We got three jobs

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Speaker 1: in four would you say three jobs? Three jobs in

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Speaker 1: four years? I think? Yeah, four different law enforcement jobs

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Speaker 1: in three years. Yeah, that's not great. That is not

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Speaker 1: a sign that you are you know, Jack Webb here

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Speaker 1: that you are Sherlock Holmes. No, he's He's not Holmes.

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Speaker 1: On what I'm sure was a completely unrelated note, he

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Speaker 1: brags that he was the department's quote most assaulted officer

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Speaker 1: in nineteen A lot of people wanted to kick the

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Speaker 1: shin out of me for the two months I had

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Speaker 1: this job. Yeah, he was not there long. He claims

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Speaker 1: that he was. He would have made detective, but quote,

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Speaker 1: the promotion rolls were backed up and absolutely Joe, Yeah, totally, dude,

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Speaker 1: absolutely getting your ass kicked all the time, you're definitely racist.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't hear the roles were backed up. Oh yeah,

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00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,920
Speaker 1: way back. He also says he was in constant pain

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Speaker 1: from being assaulted all the time. That might be true.

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Speaker 1: I do not have trouble believing he got beaten up

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Speaker 1: a lot. God, I will believe that. Um, he decided

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Speaker 1: to move on next to the next police department he

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00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 1: would serve in Las Vegas. Joe's most prominent claim from

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Speaker 1: this time is that he once pulled over Elvis Presley.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes he claims that he actually arrested Pressley and took

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Speaker 1: him down to the station to meet other officers. I

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Speaker 1: do not believe either iteration of this story. I think

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Speaker 1: they are both lies. UM never seen any evidence that

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Speaker 1: he arrested Elvis. Obviously, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: pulled Elvis Presley over. Does not feel I can obey

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Speaker 1: the rules of the road guy, But Joe R. Pio

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Speaker 1: also seems like a liar. Yeah, um yeah, Now he

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Speaker 1: was a Vegas cop for about six months when he

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Speaker 1: signed on as an agent for the Federal Bureau of Narcotics,

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Speaker 1: and this is the job that he would stick with

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Speaker 1: for years and years. Uh. The officer the authors of

359
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Speaker 1: driving while Brown Right, We came to understand that our

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00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 1: Pio learned and the small drug enforcement agency then overseen

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Speaker 1: by the Treasury Department, a lot of things that would

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Speaker 1: inform his tenure as Americopa County Sheriff. He learned how

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Speaker 1: to assume a fictitious role. He learned how to self

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Speaker 1: validate by an a serting himself in the news, and

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Speaker 1: he learned how to create chaos on the United States

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Speaker 1: Mexico border to achieve a political goal. In the early days,

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Speaker 1: Our Pio dreamed up tough guy characters for his undercover

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Speaker 1: work and jumped into those roles with Gusto. One of

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Speaker 1: his partners in Chicago, Bill Mattingly told us he and

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Speaker 1: our Pile went undercover, passing themselves off his pimps, looking

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Speaker 1: for drugs to buy for their junkie whores to place again,

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Speaker 1: they say, is their language nineteen fifties so sixties, I

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Speaker 1: think maybe at this point. To play these roles, the

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Speaker 1: duo tooled around in fancy cars that authorities had seized

375
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Speaker 1: from suspected crooks. Are Pio smoked a cigar and dressed

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Speaker 1: in flashy sports coats. He purchased five dollar nickel bags

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Speaker 1: of heroin for the whores, after which he and Mattingly

378
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: placed the low level dealer into the back of the

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Speaker 1: car and threatened years of prison if the dealer didn't

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Speaker 1: name his supplier. This earned Our Pio the bureau nickname

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Speaker 1: of Nickel bag, Joe, that's amazing. Yeah, not necessarily. Here's

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00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: the part in why the elaborate pimp car cost Like, right,

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00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 1: you can just buy a nickel bag on the street.

384
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Speaker 1: I bought a handful of nickel bags at no point

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Speaker 1: if I been wearing a pimp costume. Like it's like

386
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Speaker 1: when he's like the James O'Keefe of the uh of

387
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: the of the Narcos, Like, yeah, dress up like a

388
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: pimp in order to do it? Yeah, you get that.

389
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Speaker 1: And I also think he wanted to he wanted to

390
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Speaker 1: feel cool, like he wanted to drive the flashy car

391
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: dressed like a dressed like a fucking hip guy. Like.

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Speaker 1: You get the feeling. This will come up later with

393
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Speaker 1: some of his posse members. You get the feelings. Some

394
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: of this is just like him wanting to have a

395
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Speaker 1: cooler life than he did and the best way to

396
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: do that is to bust people for nickel bags of

397
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: heroin while driving around confiscated fancy cars and ship I

398
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: feel like that's what's going on here. Wait, when you

399
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 1: say posse members, do you mean like in the hip

400
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: hop Like no, No, in the his as sheriff, we're

401
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: getting add overs. But as sheriff, he has, he establishes

402
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: a posse of thousands of random people. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, no,

403
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: this is quite a story. We are we're gonna have

404
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 1: fun with this, You and I. When are they all dressed?

405
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: His piers? Hundreds of people dressed his pimps were running

406
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: arounds at one point, dozens at one point. Now, kind

407
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: of we'll get into that in a little bit. We're

408
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: a few years ahead of ourselves. So um yeah. Joe,

409
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: because he talks a lot as a when he's a sheriff.

410
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: Later in a big media personality, he talks a lot

411
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: about his time uh in the narcotics apartment and then

412
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: the d e A. He likes to tell a lot

413
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: of vague stories about traveling over the world and getting

414
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: into constant gun battles. We'll discuss the truth behind that

415
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: in a little bit. But he did travel around. He

416
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: was stationed in a lot of far flung areas, and

417
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: he busted people for drugs, although most of those busts

418
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: were not the glamorous stuff that they make HBO mini

419
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: series about. That's why he was nickelbag Joe. You know,

420
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: he's not not the highest man on the totem poles. Um.

421
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: Joe was married to the job, but in nineteen fifty seven,

422
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: he'd also gotten married to a person, Eva Lamb, a

423
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: clerical worker who threw some bizarre work of fates, found

424
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: Joe to be a little Italian cutie, in her words, maddeningly.

425
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: Joe's partner later expressed the interviewers that he felt Joe

426
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: ignored his wife and spent too much time away from her.

427
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: He recalls regularly telling his partner to go home and

428
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: spend time with his wife. The couple named their first son, Rocco,

429
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: after Rocky Marciano, the boxer. Joe only baby sat their

430
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: kid once, and his wife says never washed a dish

431
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: or made a bed. She told interviewers he was too busy,

432
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: had to sleep when he was off because he did

433
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: work a lot of hours. It's okay, first of all,

434
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: it's babysitting. If it's your own child, it is your child.

435
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: Well that she called it babysitting, but yeah, that's that

436
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: is your child, little Italian beauty. How about no, you know,

437
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: I was going to large him up because I feel

438
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: like Rocco is a pretty good name. Like I think

439
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: Rocco ore Pio is like a legit good name and

440
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: so yeah, you could see that guy running a deli

441
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: oh ship, yeah, hell of it? I mean yeah, I

442
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: mean I feel like in the Brooklyn of of your

443
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: there might have been a bunch of Rocco or Pios

444
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: running around and that would have been cool. But it

445
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: would have been a good boxer name too. You could

446
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: see Roco Pio. Yeah, punch of people in a ring.

447
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: I've just looked up a picture of him as young

448
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: young Joe R. Pile and he is not a little

449
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: Italian cutie. I'm just gonna on the record. You can

450
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: take that up with his very dead wife, Sophie, dead wife,

451
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: You and I need to have a conversation. Well, get

452
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: the Luigi board out. So in nineteen six, like, who

453
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: brags about like I never washed a dish, I never

454
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: took we're saying it, yeah, I mean it is weird, right,

455
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: It is weird that she because you get it, I

456
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: don't know she's she's telling my god, this poison. Hold

457
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: on a second, This poor kid, this picture I just

458
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: pulled pulled up. I'm sure this is the one Sophie's

459
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: looking at this picture. This poor kid looks is in

460
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: a is in like a v next sweater and a

461
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: bow tie, and there is a look of unbearable sadness

462
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: on this kid's face, like, oh God, I'm looking at it.

463
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: Yeah that is Oh that my ad is a cursed photo. Noah,

464
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: oh god, my asshole pimp dressing dad is touching me

465
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: on the shoulder for the first and only time, and

466
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: I am gripped with unbearable loneliness knowing that this will

467
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: never happen again. Yeah, this is the first time I've

468
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: seen him in months. Oh God. And Mom is there

469
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: in like a buffont hair do and uh and a

470
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: big old belt and she's just like, if only I

471
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: could murder with this man. Yeah, and he looks he's

472
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: got like a slinger vibes. He's got fucking uh Jadgar

473
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: Hoover vibes. He just has that like that particular kind

474
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: of uh crooked law man looked to him, just like

475
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: in his it's it's amazing, what what a what a field?

476
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: That is? Um God, good God. And yeah, he's just

477
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: always looked the same. Um. So. In nineteen sixty one,

478
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: Joe was sent to Istanbul, which was a big get

479
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: within the Bureau of Narcotics. It's a big job Turkey

480
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: was the major hub of the international heroin market, and

481
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: Joe was about to get his first chance to harsh

482
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people's buzzes. In nineteen sixty three, he

483
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: participated in a massive one ton opium bust. He went

484
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: to the media with the story and ensured it was

485
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: covered as the largest bust ever made in Turkey and

486
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: one of the largest in the world. I have no

487
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: idea if that was true, but that's how the media

488
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: come at it, because that's what Joe told them, and

489
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: they ran with the story. Uh, he was the only

490
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: agent named in the article. Um. So Joe really engineers

491
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: media coverage around this bust that he's one of the

492
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: guys responsible for, and he makes sure that he's the

493
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: only name in that coverage. Um and it goes, it

494
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: goes over huge. Back home, his dad, who he's got

495
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: a very strict father, is proud he gets to see

496
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,479
Speaker 1: his kid in the newspaper. The newspaper gets passed all

497
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: around his hometown and it's Joe are pilots first big

498
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: experience in using the media to stroke his own ego

499
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: and to pat his career, and he's going to get

500
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: very good at this in the future. He plays the

501
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: media pretty masterfully over the course of his career. UM. So,

502
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: Joe was engaged in at least one gun battle during

503
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: his time in Turkey, probably, And this is where we

504
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: get into a really interesting, really interesting little dissection here. Noah,

505
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: the authors of the book Driving While Brown, Uh and

506
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: I found actually the article that they did, like a

507
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: an exerpt from their book, was published in The Daily Beast,

508
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: which is where I found this. Did a really deep

509
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: analysis of this, reviewing his commentary on the incident from

510
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: a newspaper archive, a testimony he gave before a Senate subcommittee,

511
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: and in two of his memoirs, and they note that

512
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: our Pio tells the story differently each time. His first

513
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: public recollection of the event was in nineteen eighty two,

514
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: near the end of his career, in about twenty years

515
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: after it would have happened, if it happened, Uh, he

516
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: told a Phoenix reporter that he and five Turkish cops

517
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: got into a gun battle with drug dealers. Quote. Four

518
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: of the Turks got away and the other was shot

519
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: to death. He gave no detail on who shot the

520
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: man or the circumstances around the shooting. Joe talked about

521
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: this gunfight against Seven years later, in nineteen eighty nine,

522
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: during a hearing before the International Narcotics Control Caucus of

523
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: the U. S. Senate, cheered by a fella you might

524
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: know named Sleepy Joe Biden, in his testimony before Congress,

525
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: Joe claimed to have not Biden obviously, our Pio came

526
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: to have claimed to have killed two Turkish drug dealers

527
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: and a pulse pounding shootout. He made this claim while

528
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: criticizing the State Department for being ineffective and supporting d

529
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: e A agents. Here's what he said, quote a paradox

530
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: one of my weekly gun battles in the mountains of

531
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: Turkey where I killed two. Yeah, now it's weekly, weekly, weekly,

532
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: Like was it said at a certain time? Was it like, okay, guys,

533
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: first time a gun battle? Uh? That sounds to me

534
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: like he had a weekly like maybe training session at

535
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: the at the range, Like he went to the range

536
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: every Thursday at four and he had a gun battle

537
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: with like a paper target. Yeah, yeah, I don't think

538
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: he would have. I don't have much faith in his

539
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: ability to win that gun battle. But I'm not I'm

540
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: not sure he was ever in a gunfight, is what

541
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, but this is what he says

542
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: before Congress. So I killed two turks to dope peddlers,

543
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: and I was indicted with four other police officers for murder.

544
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 1: I sent a cable through state department channels and nothing happened.

545
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: Three weeks later, they finally decided, g we had better

546
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: do something. Joe. Of course, I resolved the matter. My

547
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: indictment was dismissed, and the other police officers had to

548
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: stand trial, but they were found not guilty. Guilty, let

549
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: me add, we were in the line of duty. So

550
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: I have no idea what to make of that. Because

551
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: he tells this story differently every time, you would think

552
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: that the version in Congress would be the most honest.

553
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: But he's also claimed you have had weekly gun battles

554
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: in the mountains of Turkey, and I've never been able

555
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: to find any evidence that would corroborate this. Um. No

556
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: one else's stories in the d e A of that

557
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: time sound like Joe would have been involved in He's

558
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: painting the picture that he was at war in the

559
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: mountains of Turkey for several years. Basically, and hold on,

560
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: he says he was indicted for murder, like no big deal.

561
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: And he had in Turkey, and he hadn't mentioned that

562
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: in previous iterations of the story. Nope, Nope, I don't

563
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: think so. No, I think in his h in that interview, well,

564
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: in the interview he gave to that local Phoenix paper,

565
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: he says that several of the cops he was with

566
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: got indicted and there was a trial and they were

567
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: declared innocent. But he does mentioned himself being indicted in

568
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: that first interview. So you can see seven years later,

569
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: the story has evolved when he tells it to Congress,

570
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: and not only is it like, oh, yeah, we had

571
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: this one gunfight, gunfight where a guy died, it's though

572
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: this is one of my weekly gunfights. And it's you

573
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: can see like the mythologizing right that he's he's going

574
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: through as this happens. So when he tells d hold On,

575
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: it's like, I have this awesome story. Let me tell

576
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: you to Oh there's one part I forgot. Oh this

577
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: is one little key detail I left out. I was

578
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: indicted for murder. Yeah, I was indicted for murder. It

579
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: was one of my weekly gun battles where I get

580
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: incited for murder. You know, it happened to me all

581
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: the time, classic d A business. And it's interesting this

582
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: this this most kind of lavish version of the story

583
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: in eighty nine comes out like two years before he

584
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: runs for office, so you can see he's kind of

585
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: starting to like build up this, um this internal mythology

586
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: over like what he did as a d E A agent.

587
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: And I don't think any of his true. Like I said,

588
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: I don't actually know if I think Joe R. Pio

589
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: was ever in a gunfight. Um, I just don't know.

590
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: You know, there's also a good chance and I you know,

591
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: I think you talked to people who served in the military.

592
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: They all have stories of guys who came back and

593
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: then started embellishing what happened, and like eventually it bears

594
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: no resemblance to like, well, yeah, there's this one time

595
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: we were getting shot at and then like it's turned

596
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: in his head into this thing different than what it was.

597
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: So it's possible that like there was a there was

598
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: a gunfight of some sort that Joe was around for

599
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: and he's just turned it into something completely different. We

600
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: don't really know, um, but Robert you know, who definitely

601
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: hasn't well, I don't know if they could possibly I'm

602
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: going to guess a number of our sponsors, I would

603
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: agree with that statement. I was gonna you don't move

604
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: down the pills unless you're willing to like lay down

605
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: some heavy long just dropping a mactin into Okay, Well,

606
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: here here's the ads. So we're back, um, and we're

607
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: talking about Joe in his story of this gunfight that

608
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: may or may not have happened now nineties. When he

609
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: tells this to Congress years later, when he's a sheriff,

610
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: he writes two different memoirs. While he co writes, he

611
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: hires a ghostwriter to write two different sets of memoires,

612
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: and in both memoirs he repeats the story with more embellishment. Uh.

613
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: In this version he ties it into Turkish politics, adding quote, uh,

614
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: it's not that I was glad the dealers had been killed.

615
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: I wasn't. But it happened and more often than on

616
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: one occasion. So he's still adding that. Now he's saying

617
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: I killed multiple people, right, like again, it keeps part

618
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: of why I'm pretty. Part of why I don't know

619
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: if I ever think he's ever been in a gunfight

620
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: is the story evolves. So it starts there was one

621
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: gunfight a guy died. We had daily gunfights and then

622
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: one time, you know, I killed somebody or I killed

623
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: two people, is what he tells Congress, And there was

624
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: a big court case. And then the third version is

625
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: I killed people on a bunch of different occasions, you

626
00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: know version in my daily tan war, I drove an

627
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: armored personnel carrier down the streets of Istanbul mowing down bystanders,

628
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: just machine gunning drug dealers. Just that's how he wants

629
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: people to think about his fucking I mean, and that's

630
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 1: that's the image he paints of himself when he's Sheriff

631
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: Joe and he gets all these tanks and he's got

632
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: guys with machine guns all over the place, Like he

633
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: very much wants to be seen as this like wild

634
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: West lawman type mother like he you know, you know,

635
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: the kind of image he wants to portray it like that.

636
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: He's like Charles Bronson, you know, uh yeah, he's definitely

637
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: if you've never seen a Charles Bronson movie, they're all

638
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: based around this like shlubby, middle aged man who just

639
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 1: mows down drug dealers with machine guns in like New

640
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: York City and yeah and grunts and sweats a lot.

641
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 1: Charles Bronson. So uh. The authors of Driving Well Brown

642
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: eventually got to interview Joe R. Pio about this purported shooting.

643
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: They write, quote, we asked our Pios several times if

644
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: he'd ever killed anybody. He answered, not that I know of,

645
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: although in Turkey I used to have gun battles. I

646
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: think one gun battle, I did hit one or two

647
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: dope peddlers, only because I am the one that had

648
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: the gun, A thirty eight, I guess. He added hastily

649
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: that he had never killed anyone in the United States.

650
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: Another time, he told us in Turkey, I've had some

651
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: gun battles. I don't know who killed who, but I

652
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: never killed anybody, which is different very much from his

653
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: congressional festimony. So he's just a liar. He's just a

654
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: big liar. Noah, he's just a big liar, I think.

655
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: I I also, I like, it's not a gun battle

656
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: if you're the only one with the gun, you're just

657
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: you're just shooting people, bitch. Show to be a gun battle,

658
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: there need to be guns on both sides. I had

659
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: a gun battle. I'm going back to the paper target.

660
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: I think he had a weekly gun battle with a

661
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: paper might have shot somebody while he was trying to

662
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: hit a paper target. Yeah. Uh so I know. Yeah.

663
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time in analysis on this,

664
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: but it's hugely important to his his image in public

665
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: speeches and books aimed at his fan base when becomes

666
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: a politician, Joe would talk about these weekly gunfights in

667
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: the mountains of Turkey and his like far flung career

668
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: killing bad guys all around the world. Uh. And this

669
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: is how he portrays himself when he's giving speeches and

670
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: when he's writing his own books. But when he's pressed

671
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: by serious reporters, he backs down and he provides a

672
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: much more grounded story. And I think it's because he

673
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: knows that they can check up on elements of his story.

674
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: And at the end of this, again, I have no

675
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: idea if I believe Joe R. Pio has ever heard

676
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: incoming Fire. Now, after Turkey, Joe was sent to d

677
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: C where he participated in Operation Intercept, a Nixonian plan

678
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: to blockade border crossing stations with Mexico in order to

679
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: stop drugs from entering the US. This may have been

680
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: This seems to have been partly Joe's idea, and Nixon

681
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: really liked it. It was a big publicityploy. Nixon was

682
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: trying to bully Mexico into letting the U. S arially

683
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: spray pesticides on marijuana fields. Uh. And basically we were

684
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: threatening the Mexican government by shutting down border crossing stations

685
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: and causing a huge amount of economic damage. One aspect

686
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: of the blockade that Joe personally oversaw was that immigration

687
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: and narcotics officers individually searched four point five million civilians

688
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: over a three week period. This included a lot of

689
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: strip searches, um, a lot of people being detained. Uh.

690
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: And it was economically devastating to people who lived in

691
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: the region on both sides of the border. But it

692
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: gave Dick Nixon an excuse to act like he was

693
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: tough on drugs and make political Hey, Joe Arpio gotten

694
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 1: close with Nixon as a result of this. He spent

695
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: during this operation. Ar Pio was flying around in a

696
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: helicopter with Spiro Agnew monitoring like the shutdown of the border. Um.

697
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: So he's actually in pretty deep with the Nixon administration.

698
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: You know, he's ag knew deep, which is uh. Yeah.

699
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: So Joe was sent next to Mexico City, where he

700
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: was served as the regional director for the Bureau of Narcotics.

701
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: He and his wife had a second child, and in

702
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: general things were going great for him. Nixon regularly sent

703
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: his Deputy Attorney General down to talk with Joe about

704
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: undercover operation. He went to Chicago and San Antonio in

705
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: Boston over the next few years. As his career neared

706
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: its end. Of nineteen seventy eight, he chose to be

707
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: stationed in Arizona. This would be Joe's last station of duty,

708
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: and it was the place he and Ava decided to

709
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: build their life. They bought a house in the Northeast Valley.

710
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: Ava started a travel agency in Scottsdale, but all was

711
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: not well Phoenix. Being Phoenix had a lot of Mexican

712
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: agents and its d e a branch. Two of Joe's

713
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: new colleagues felt that he was kind of racist. Phil Jordan,

714
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: who ran the Phoenix office before Joe moved in, claims

715
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: Joe deliberately sabotaged relationships between Mexican and American narcotics agents.

716
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: In response, Joe initiated an internal probe against Jordan's claiming

717
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: that he'd leaked information to a journalist and that he'd

718
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: used the office copy machine to copy a cookbook for

719
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: his girlfriend Dry. Joe loses his rank over this and

720
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: gets pushed to a desk job. Though now there's eventually

721
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: an investigation, and it founds finds that there's are not

722
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: Joe UM, sorry, the other guy, Phil Jordan's um. And

723
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: when the investigation includes I just love how it's like, oh,

724
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: but he photocopied a cookbook. Yeah, it's an amazing allegation

725
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: to throw at like and it's you know, it's it's

726
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: this thing you'll see again with Joe. He gets attacked

727
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: and he immediately goes after the people who attack him

728
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: and and does his best to damage their career. And

729
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: although there were no merits say allegations Joe made against

730
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 1: Phil Jordan's, it still damages the guy's career for a while.

731
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: Joe also had conflict with Laura Garcia, at the time

732
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: the only Mexican American woman in the Phoenix d A office.

733
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: She filed a complaint about explosives that the d e

734
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: A had stored without proper safety procedures in downtown Phoenix.

735
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: She was especially concerned about these improperly stored explosives because

736
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: she was pregnant and thus particularly vulnerable to explosions a

737
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: local NewSpace. That's true. I guess so every doctor is

738
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: going to tell you noxplode pregnant ad for him. But

739
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: she's got concerns to like they're they're not properly dealing

740
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: with like the fumes and stuff coming off this like

741
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: it's just a really dangerous storage situation. And a local

742
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: newspaper learns about her complaint and published as an article.

743
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: This infuriated our pile, and she claims he started attacking

744
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: her about her ethnicity and Monday morning meetings. He had

745
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: agents searcher car repeatedly and investigate her over parking tickets.

746
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: At one time, he told her you should be home

747
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: having babies and cooking tortillas. She eventually left the d

748
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: e A over this, so he's he sucks. It's not

749
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: good now. Joe retired from the d e A in

750
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: nineteen two. He was fifty years old. For the next

751
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: ten years, he lived the low profile life of a retiree.

752
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: He worked mostly at his wife's travel agency in Scottsdale.

753
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: He seems to have been very quickly bothered by the

754
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: fact that he was no longer a powerful man. He

755
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: wasn't interacting with elected leaders and making decisions that impacted

756
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: people's lives every day. He doesn't take well to being

757
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: retired quietly, so he decides to run for Phoenix City

758
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: Council on a platform of forcing the homeless out of

759
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 1: town and locking them up if they refused to leave. Yeah, wait,

760
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: I want to I want to know what he was like,

761
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: what kind of trips he was booking? Oh, we're about

762
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: to talk about that. Noah spoilers, it's too space. So

763
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: he loses that city council election, and next in nineteen five,

764
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: he decides to use his talent as a huckster to

765
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: sell people tickets to Space through his wife's travel agency.

766
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: You're not, that's absolutely a thing he did. It's part

767
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: of this I haven't. There's like a whole dig to

768
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: be done here into the whole story. But basically, there

769
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: was this nationwide. There's this company called Society Expeditions in

770
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: Pacific American Launch Systems, and they start advertising in the

771
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: eighties that by nineteen ninety two they're going to have

772
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: a craft capable of vertical takeoff and landing, like a

773
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: spaceship that can do vertical takeoff and landing, which we

774
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: still don't have today, right, Like, that's not wasn't remotely

775
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: possible in the nineteen eighties. But they're bragging that they

776
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: have this, and they make deals with a bunch of

777
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: travel agencies to sell people tickets on this thing. And

778
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: Joe's track gets his travel his wife's travel agency involved,

779
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: and they start hucking the space tickets. And I'm gonna

780
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: quote from a nineteen ninety six right up by the

781
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: Phoenix New Times here. The price was fifty thousand dollars

782
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: with a seven thousand dollar deposit and collection of the rest.

783
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: Beginning in October twelfth, nineteen two, when the Phoenix was

784
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: to take its first passengers into space. Um, yeah, we

785
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: had people, herbub director Collette Bevis says, two fifty two

786
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: people paid the seven thousand dollars, with five thousand going

787
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: to a refundable escrow account and the remaining two thousand,

788
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: nonrefundable going to Society Expeditions bank account. We had people

789
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: taking out three mortgages on their home, she recalls, Yeah,

790
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: and they were Joe or Pile selling space tickets, selling

791
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: space tickets. Okay, stick with me. Joe Aprile was from

792
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: the future. Actually he meant it. He meant it. He

793
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to. He wasn't trying to, you know, a griff.

794
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: He came back in time, and his him selling the

795
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: tickets early is why space travel got derailed and we

796
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: weren't able to get We would have been doing trips

797
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: into space by a ninety two for everybody. We'd have

798
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: space travel. Now, Joe r Pio ruined it by selling

799
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: space tickets too early. He fucked up the dream. He

800
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: came back from the future to buck up space travel.

801
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: He wanted to take that from us. Yeah, he wanted

802
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos to have it to himself. That's son of

803
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: a bitch. Yeah, So he sold tickets to space. We

804
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: don't know if any of them sold. We know that

805
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: they were trying to sell them. People pay. Two people

806
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 1: total in the country paid for this ticket. We don't

807
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: know who they. So when the Phoenix New Times interviewed

808
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: the lady used to work for the company, she said

809
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: she couldn't access her records to confirm whether or not

810
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: the r Pios sold any space junkets. And Joe just

811
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: refuses to answer any questions about this. So we don't

812
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: know if he sold any, but he tried to. He

813
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: may have. UM, we just have no idea because I

814
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: think this was all the con game from the beginning. UM.

815
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: And I don't know that I believe the company ever

816
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: actually had records. UM. In any case, whether or not

817
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: it was a con from the beginning. In n the

818
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: Challenger exploded. Uh, and that was kind of the end

819
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: of anyone talking about selling tickets like this. Um, So

820
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: the grift falls apart. It's just funny that they got

821
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: involved with this. Joe was selling tickets to Space for

822
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: a while. We don't know if he succeeded in actually

823
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: getting any money, but they tried. You guys have covered

824
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: like every grifter in history, right, you guys have covered

825
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: ten million grifters, a lot of them. Yeah. This is

826
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: like the same playbook, right Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean

827
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: it's it's very much. You know. I think the thing

828
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: that you see with all of the grifters that we cover,

829
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: that Joe r. Pio has in spades is a a

830
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 1: gut understanding of how to make a spectacle of the media,

831
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: right because the only the thing that you're always selling

832
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: is a grifter is yourself, and that's the thing Joe

833
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: is always selling. That's why this story about him being

834
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: in gunfights in Turkey is so important because he's got

835
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: to sell himself as this desperado warrior law man, right. Um.

836
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: And I think in this period after retirement, kind of

837
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: the reason he's going through the city council trying to

838
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: win there and an anti hunting he's then he's selling

839
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: space tickets. Is he kind of loses the threat of

840
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: his own story for a while. I think he's kind

841
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: of lost after the d e A and it takes

842
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: him a while to figure out what story he's going

843
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: to sell next to people. Um. I think that's kind

844
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 1: of the position he's in right now. So after ten

845
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: years of working for his wife, he decided to get

846
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: back into a spotlight. In nineteen two, he had a

847
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: chance because there was a Maricopa County Sheriff's election. Um.

848
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: So it just so happened that nineteen two was a

849
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: great time to run for sheriff of Maricopa County. The

850
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: sitting sheriff was a guy named Tom Agnos, and he

851
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: was in charge during the Wattle Buddhist temple shooting, which

852
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: I think may still be the largest mass shooting in

853
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: Arizona history. Nine dead. It may have been beaten by

854
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: now it was the largest for quite a while. Um.

855
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: And it was not like, um, you know, when we

856
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: say mass shooting today, you're thinking about like a guy

857
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: walking into with a gun and just mowing people down.

858
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: This was a robbery that went horribly bad, and these

859
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: people were well being robbed executed so that they couldn't

860
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: like give away the people who had robbed them basically right,

861
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: like that seems to have been the actual case here.

862
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: It's a horrible, horrible tragedy. Um. And it it got

863
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: worse actually when the police got involved, um because they

864
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: get a tip from a very unreliable source. Uh, and

865
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: they immediately arrest five men from Tucson, Arizona based on

866
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: this tip. No one of these guys has let go

867
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: after providing an alibi, but the remainder are charged after

868
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: deputies coerced them in into confessing by exaggerating evidence and

869
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: threatening them with the death penalty. So very sketchy behavior

870
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: on behalf of the sheriff's They kind of forced these

871
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: guys to confess, um, and the sheriff's department just is

872
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: is very convinced that these are the guilty parties. For

873
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: about seven weeks, the Tucson for languish in jail. Uh

874
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: and the Sheriff's department is adamant that these guys are

875
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: absolutely guilty. And then incontrovertible evidence emerges that two completely

876
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: different guys are the real killers. Um. So the Tucson

877
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: four sue the state successfully, they get a bunch of money,

878
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: but the Sheriff Agnos refuses to admit any wrongdoing, and

879
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: he claims the coerced confessions justified murder charges. Now nine

880
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: two was still a time when being brutally bad at

881
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: your job in a way that harmed people could get

882
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: you fired. And Maricopa remember those days, no fondly um

883
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: and Maricope account and he very rightly decided to fire

884
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: Sheriff Agnos, so that Joe picks this time to run

885
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: for sheriff. It's a great time to run for sheriff,

886
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: because it's really easy to look good next to this

887
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: chuckle fuck. Now, at the time, the US was just

888
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: one year out from the peak of the most violent

889
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: crime wave, and recent history is the peak in recent

890
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: memory of violent crime in the United States. So this

891
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: is the year after that people are still real freaked

892
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: out about this is like Charles Bronson movies, are big

893
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 1: in this time right. Um our Pile was not at

894
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: this point focused on immigration. In fact, his campaign had

895
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: nothing to do with immigrants. Instead, he focused on his

896
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: history as a d e a man, and he promised

897
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: to use those skills to keep people safe. He also

898
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: complained about mismanagement by the old sheriff and that he

899
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: was basically like, hey, he's wasting a bunch of tax money.

900
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: You see this big case that went badly. We got

901
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: sued for millions of dollars. Like, I'm gonna come in

902
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: and clean up the sheriff's department and I'm gonna save

903
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: the county a bunch of money. He also promised that

904
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: if elected, he would serve only one term. He won

905
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: election handily in he was sworn in. One other elected

906
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: official who was sworn in on the same day was

907
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: Mary Wilcox, a Mexican American woman elected to the county

908
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: Board of Supervisors, which oversaw the sheriff's department budget. On

909
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: the day they met, Joe told her, you look so

910
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: much like my mother and her pictures, I could never

911
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: get mad at you, which is kind of a weird

912
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: thing to say. But the two of them had a

913
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: good relationship actually Mary Wilcox is a Democrat, but she

914
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: has Joe comes over to her family restaurant all the time,

915
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: he plays with their kids. He's a very pleasant fixture

916
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: in her life. And she's pretty adamant that, like, he

917
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 1: was not this weirdo racist for the first like decade

918
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: or so that she knew her. Um that there's a

919
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 1: shift in Joe R. Pio and we're gonna talk about

920
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: that shift more in part two. Um, But he like

921
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: during this period of time, she thought he was like

922
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: a pretty reasonable guy, and he specifically told her he

923
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: didn't want to waste department money arresting undocumented immigrants and

924
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: having them deported. He wanted to deal with violent crime

925
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: and his only concern was keeping the people of his

926
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: county safe. So at the start, some people, at least

927
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: Mary Wilcox is one of them, will say he seemed

928
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: like a pretty reasonable guy. He seemed and obviously the

929
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: guy who was sheriff before was shipped. So it doesn't

930
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: immediately look like Joe R. Pope is going to be

931
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: a nightmare, you know. But that's not where the story ends, Noah.

932
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 1: But the story that we're going to tell right now

933
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: is the story of products and services, which is a

934
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: story that never goes badly, that always leads us to

935
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: more products and more services and thus to a better life.

936
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: So here's some ads. All right, we're back. So Joe

937
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: is the sheriff now, um and you know in public,

938
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: he almost immediately adopts the name sheriff Joe, and he

939
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: clearly tried. He tries to portray himself from the start.

940
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: Is kind of like an Old West style law man.

941
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: That's how he wants to be seen. The only problem

942
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 1: is that's not the job he got elected to do.

943
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: Marracopa is the large just county in the US by area.

944
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: It is not in population obviously. The population is about

945
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: four million, which is about the entire population of Oregon,

946
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: where I live. So it is a populous county. But

947
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: Maricopa is like bigger than most nations in Europe. It's

948
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: a massive, massive county, um, and it includes a bunch

949
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: of nowhere land like a bunch of desert with tiny

950
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: little towns, but it also includes the enormous Phoenix metropolitan area.

951
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: Most of our Pio's job involved overseeing the county jail,

952
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: where people arrested for minor bullshit were locked up while

953
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 1: they awaited trial or served very short sentences. So his

954
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: job is not to be the desperado law man. His

955
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: job is very much to manage a jail. That's the

956
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: biggest part of what he's supposed to be doing. Joe

957
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: immediately saw potential in his this job where his predecessors

958
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: had not. I'm gonna quote from the New Yorker here,

959
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: the voters had declined to finance new jail construction, and

960
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: so in nine are Pio, vowing that no troublemakers would

961
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: be released on his watch because of overcrowding, procured a

962
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: consignment of army surplus tints and had them set up

963
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: surrounded by barbed wire in an industrial area in southwest Phoenix.

964
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: I put them up next to the dump, the dog pound,

965
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: the waste disposal plant, he told me. Phoenix is an

966
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: open air blast furnace. For much of the year, temperatures

967
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 1: inside the tents hit a hundred and thirty five degrees. Still,

968
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: the tints were a hit with the public, or at

969
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: least with the conservative majority that voted our pile put

970
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: up more tents until Tins City Jail held twenty inmates,

971
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 1: and he stuck a neon vacancy sign on the tall

972
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: guard tower. It was visible for miles. His popularity grew.

973
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: What could he do next? Are Pio ordered small, heavily

974
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: publicized deprivations. He banned cigarettes from his jails, skin magazines, movies, coffee,

975
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: hot lunches, salt and pepper. Are Pile estimated that he

976
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: saved taxpayers thirty thousand dollars a year by removing salt

977
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: and pepper. Meals were cut to to a day, and

978
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: our Pile got the cost down, he says, to thirty

979
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: cents per meal. It costs more to feed the dogs

980
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: than it does the inmates. He told me. Jail our

981
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: Bio likes to say, is not a spa, it's punishment.

982
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: He once in mates whose keenest wishes to never get

983
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: locked up again. He limits their television. He told me

984
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: to the Weather Channel, c SPAN, and just to aggravate

985
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 1: their hunger, the Food Network. For a while, he showed

986
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: them new to Gingrich speeches. They hated him, he said, cheerfully.

987
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: Why the Weather Channel? A British reporter once asked, so

988
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: these morons will know how hot it's going to be

989
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: while they're working on my chain gangs. So, my god,

990
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: this motherfucker so this guy who is two years out

991
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: of selling space tickets is now who the U. S.

992
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: Military's greatest typist of of the Korean War, has now

993
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: decided that he's going to take his rage at being

994
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: so impotent out on these guys who what like, we're

995
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: busted for a dime bag, a dime bag, you know.

996
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: They they have expired letta, they didn't pay a parking ticket, right,

997
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: and they get a warrant out like all sorts of

998
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: ship um and a lot of them are people who

999
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: are accused of crimes. And again, as a general jail,

1000
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: there's two kinds of people in a in a in

1001
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: a city jail, right. There's people who have been convicted

1002
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 1: of a crime, but it's usually under a year in sentence,

1003
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: so they're doing like three to six months or something

1004
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: to go to prison. Yeah, Or it's somebody who has

1005
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: been arrested and is accused of a crime but has

1006
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,959
Speaker 1: not been convicted. A significant, if a majority, generally people

1007
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: into jail are people who are legally innocent, right because

1008
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: they have not been proven guilty. And that's the way

1009
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: the system works. But Joe's whole thing is is punish

1010
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: them and and do it in a very showy way.

1011
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 1: And he's not doing this because it's good for anything.

1012
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: And he's not even doing this. No, no, sorry, an

1013
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: I mean interrupt, but look, I'm just as somebody who

1014
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: lived through that time. This was also the peak of

1015
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: like drug war, super predator hysteria, you know what i mean. Exist.

1016
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: This was like the time when you know, uh, you

1017
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: were not that people vital the law. We're not criminals.

1018
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: There are animals and and you know that's when you

1019
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: get Joe Biden's crime bill. Uh that's where here in

1020
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: New York you get Giuliani time, you know, and all

1021
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: of a sudden, people were getting busted, some people that

1022
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: may even be on this podcast right now. We're getting

1023
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,399
Speaker 1: busted for very any crimes. But at least when they

1024
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: threw theoretically this person into the you know, midtown south

1025
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: Um holding cell, they just help me there for a

1026
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: couple of hours and then you know, let me walk,

1027
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: not kept me in a fucking blast furnace. Yeah, where

1028
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: they feed you rotting food. Generally, it's it's said to

1029
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: be rotting food twice a day. The cheapest worst ship

1030
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: they can no salt. And again he brags about saving

1031
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: the city thirty dollars a year on salt and pepper.

1032
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: We'll talk about how much lawsuits of his jail cost

1033
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: the city. But like the real the point is the

1034
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: real purpose of this. It's not to save money. He's

1035
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: doing that because it's a good when he talks about

1036
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: saying when he's doing that, because it's a good campaign

1037
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: thing to say. Right, and in general, the more outlandish

1038
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: things he can force inmates to do, the more press

1039
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: he gets, right, trolls go with all of this isn't

1040
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: even necessarily to punish the prisoners as much as it

1041
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: is to get attention from the media because of how

1042
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: he's punishing, right, and to and to build support because

1043
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: a lot of specifically I can say from this, Uh,

1044
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: you know, my Joe R. Piot was very popular with

1045
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: members of my family, you know, because of because he

1046
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: was seen as like putting these putting these dangerous criminals

1047
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: in their places and like saving you know, people money

1048
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: and not doing any of this bullshit. Uh, we're too

1049
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: easy on dangerous criminals in this country kind of ship. Yeah,

1050
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: you know it almost it's like a troll, right, Yeah,

1051
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: Actually he's actually like he's trolling the media in this

1052
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: way that like now we totally get right, Like, you know,

1053
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: Trump is ship bag X says in order to provoke this,

1054
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: you know, pearl clutching outrage from from the media. But

1055
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: back then, you know, it was like him doing it,

1056
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: you know, in the jails, and I guess it was

1057
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: kind of like a Rush Limball move. Um uh, you know,

1058
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: a Rush Limball analog. It was just a way to

1059
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: troll people into coverage. It's fucking nuts somehow. Yeah, And

1060
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: but that's what I mean when I say there there's

1061
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: an element of him that is he will claim you

1062
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 1: know that he would kind of blaze the trail for

1063
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. And there's obviously he's not the only guy

1064
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: who was, but he was a very prominent person who

1065
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: was figuring out how to use the media in the

1066
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: in the same way that kind of every every guy

1067
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: who's in that space on the that troll space and

1068
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: the right does today. He was kind of he was

1069
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: very early in that um and he's very early in

1070
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: using the Internet. We're gonna talk about that in a

1071
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: little bit too. But people love Sheriff Joe. He is

1072
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: incredibly popular right away because of this stuff, and as

1073
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: a result, every news report on his jail did really good.

1074
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: The numbers were always good, so outlets kept sending reporters

1075
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: his way. He was a big hit with the foreign press.

1076
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: The British and the Japanese and everyone else would send

1077
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: TV crews all around the world would come to report

1078
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: on his tense city and to film it. To keep

1079
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: them interested, he regularly developed new methods of punishing and

1080
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: humiliating inmates. He put them in black and white striped uniforms.

1081
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: He started putting them into chain gangs, a practice that

1082
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,479
Speaker 1: had ended everywhere else in the country. In nineteen fifty five,

1083
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: to make more headlines, Joe created female chain gangs, to

1084
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: which he bragged were the first in the history of

1085
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: the world. I don't know if that's true, but that's

1086
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: what he bragged. And then his next big innovation was

1087
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: to start chain gangs for children. What so some kid

1088
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: is like accused of what like stealing ant or some ship,

1089
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: you know, fucking Elina car or something, and yeah, then

1090
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: they put the child on a chain gang. Putting a

1091
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: kid in a chain gang, so you can get another

1092
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: Swedish film crew to ask you to film your juvenile

1093
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: chain gang. Yeah, Now his chain gangs did work. One

1094
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 1: of the most popular jobs was burying dead homeless people

1095
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: in the county cemetery, but Joe was clear from the

1096
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: jump that their main purpose was to be a spectacle. Quote.

1097
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: I put them out there on the main streets, so

1098
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: everybody sees them out there cleaning up trash, and parents

1099
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: say to their kids, look, that's where you're going if

1100
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: you're not good, just like we'll lock you up in

1101
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: a chain gang if you're a bad kid. Oh my god,

1102
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: right wing media went ape ship for this. Oh my god.

1103
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: Rush Limbaugh couldn't get enough Joe R. Pio. He was

1104
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: repeatedly praised on air, and before his first term was done,

1105
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: Poles showed that Joe R. Pyle was the most popular

1106
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: politician in Arizona. The state Democratic Party didn't even try

1107
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: to run a candidate against him in nine Joe was

1108
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: very open about the fact that his success had everything

1109
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: to do with the way he had gotten the media

1110
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: to cover his antics. He told the Phoenix New Times quote,

1111
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: since the day I got elected, I've been giving speeches.

1112
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm going constantly. Everybody who wants me to talk, I talk.

1113
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: I feel I'm the elected sheriff. I deserve to go

1114
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: directly to the people. You can't rely on the press

1115
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: the media to tell the truth my name idea is

1116
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: like that isn't just because they see me on television.

1117
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm out there talking to people constantly. But television was

1118
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: the vast majority of his publicity, and in two thousand four,

1119
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: The Phoenix New Times wrote more than of the events

1120
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: appearing in his daily duty calendar are related to stoking

1121
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: his public image. His only regular work related duties, according

1122
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: to the calendar, are two weekly staff meetings and speaking

1123
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: to classes of graduating detention officers and deputies. For a

1124
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 1: cop who loves to brag about his gun battles with

1125
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: drug dealers in Turkey, South America, and Washington, d C.

1126
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: During his thirty two years with the Federal Drug Enforcement Agency,

1127
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: our PIO spends no time at the firing range practicing

1128
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: his gun slinging skills. So of his jot time on

1129
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: the job is press related. So he's putting kids to work.

1130
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: Would you say like burying bodies? Uh? Yeah, some of

1131
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: his chain gangs are burying the corpses of of of

1132
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: of poor people. I don't know if the child child

1133
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: changangs are doing that. They also pick up trash and

1134
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,919
Speaker 1: stuff Okay, So even if the kids are only picking

1135
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: up trash in the and ten degree heat while he's

1136
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: in his air conditioned trailer giving press interviews nine times

1137
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: a day. Yeah, yeah, that's his job. He's a he's

1138
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: a lovely man. Yeah. So there is some evidence that

1139
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 1: Joe's attention seeking behavior was not all the result of

1140
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: callous political calculu lation. A lot of it seems rooted

1141
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: in insecurity. When he first took office, he would spend

1142
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: months going around and asking strangers, do you know who

1143
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: I am? So he was he was really the fact

1144
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: that he brags litter about his name recognition. That was

1145
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: something he was like deeply insecure about from the beginning,

1146
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: is that people wouldn't know him. So he's there's an

1147
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: element of this that is just like craven opportunism, and

1148
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: there's an element of this that's kind of sad. From

1149
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 1: the beginning, Joe's attention seeking antics came with a horrific

1150
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: human cost. The first clear example of this came in

1151
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six with the death of Scott Norberg in detention.

1152
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: The Phoenix New Times wrote quote Norberg died of asphyxia

1153
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: after he was tackled by fourteen detention officers and strapped

1154
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: into the restraint chair. His head was then pressed forward

1155
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 1: against his chest and a towel was placed over his face.

1156
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: An autopsy report showed that he sustained numerous contusions and

1157
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: lacerations to his head, face, neck, and limbs. He had

1158
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: been stunned, gunned more than twenty times. There were burn

1159
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: marks up and down his body. Norberg's death triggered worldwide

1160
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: criticism of the Sheriff's office. The London based human rights

1161
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: group Amnesty International conducted a review of the incident and

1162
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: issued a nine report that states, although Norberg was reportedly

1163
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: uncooperative and engaged in bizarre behavior, his behavior in initial

1164
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: passive resistance does not appear to have warranted the extreme

1165
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 1: degree of force used, especially as he already had his

1166
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: hands handcuffed behind his head and was lying on his

1167
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 1: stomach on the ground when dragged by officers from his cell.

1168
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: They later find that he had been wow restrained, tasted

1169
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: at least fourteen times, and had his larynx crushed like

1170
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: his esophagus was literally crushed. When they eventually like find

1171
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: out like he's he's beaten to death while he is

1172
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: he is tied to a chair, right, so this is

1173
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: straight up murder. Yeah, this is this is like you

1174
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 1: read stories about the wild concentration camps which were before

1175
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: they established like the actual like physical camps, like the

1176
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 1: permanent camps and stuff in the early days of the

1177
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: Nazi regime. This is like the way they would get

1178
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: rid of people. You know, you you have a group

1179
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: of goons beat them to death with sticks, like it's

1180
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: that kind of ship. This guy was strapped to a chair, Yeah,

1181
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: tazed fourteen times, even strangled to death, well, beaten, and

1182
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: his throat got crushed in the beating at least o god. Yeah,

1183
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: it's bad. It's bad stuff. Joe our Pile and his

1184
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: employees denied any wrongdoing. One of his top aids told

1185
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: The New Times that the restraint used by deputies was

1186
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 1: actually so appropriate that it's set a new standard for

1187
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: how to tension off officers would perform their duties in

1188
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 1: the future. Ye, that hold just killed somebody. We're gonna

1189
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 1: keep doing it. Our Pile claimed to be proud of

1190
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: how the situation was handled by his men. Maricopa County, however,

1191
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: paid eight point to five million dollars in a wrongful

1192
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 1: death suit to his family. And this gets to an

1193
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 1: important point because Joe would brag about stuff like how

1194
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: he saved the county thirty dollars by kind of out

1195
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 1: salt and pepper. But all of the brutality suits against

1196
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: his men called eventually tens of millions of dollars. So

1197
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: would you say eight million? Yeah for this one death

1198
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: bragging about thirty dollars in salt and pepper. Yeah, and

1199
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: his deputies beat a restrained man to deaf and it

1200
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: cost the county eight point five million. Good mathematics, good math, Yeah,

1201
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: makes sense. Now, this in no way harmed Joe's popularity.

1202
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: He won re election handily, and his second term contained

1203
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: more of the same antics. On July nine, he launched

1204
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: his boldest pr move yet, framing a teenager for trying

1205
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: to murder him. James Saville. Yeah, he frames a teenage

1206
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: boyfriend murder well for us an attempted murder. Yeah, go on.

1207
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 1: James Saville eighteen was a pyromaniac with prior felony convictions

1208
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: and a clearly tenuous hold on reality. This is a

1209
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: mentally ill kid with a record. Joe R. Pyle wanted

1210
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 1: something to burnish his tough guy wild West sheriff credentials.

1211
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: Since his day job was just talking to cameras and

1212
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,959
Speaker 1: dreaming up new ways to make inmates miserable, he didn't

1213
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 1: get a lot of opportunities to look like an actual badass.

1214
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: An assassination attempt would solve that problem nicely, making the case,

1215
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: just ahead of his third reelection campaign, that Joe R.

1216
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: Pio was the kind of badass crime foe who risked

1217
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: his life for the safety of his community. James was

1218
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: arrested by heavily armed sheriff's deputies flanked by local news

1219
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: teams with cameras who had been informed that there was

1220
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: an assassination plot against the sheriff ahead of time. It

1221
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: was front page news all across Phoenix from another article

1222
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: by the New Times quote, they got what they wanted.

1223
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: Images of gun wielding deputies swooping into a parking lot

1224
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,959
Speaker 1: and taking a bewildered and unarmed civil into custody filled

1225
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: the airwaves. News anchors gushed about how they were thankful

1226
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: that Saville's despicable plot had been foiled by vigilant deputies

1227
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: and that the brave art Pio had averted yet another

1228
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: a serious attempt on his life. Well, we took this

1229
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 1: guy off the street. Are Pio bragged and his best

1230
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: John Wayne inflection to a television news station after going

1231
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: home to comfort his wife in the cold the alleged

1232
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: foiled assassination attempt. He's back in prison where he belongs. Now,

1233
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 1: what the funk? How does nobody see through this? It's

1234
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 1: that's really frustrating question to ask, isn't it, Noah, Because

1235
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 1: it's obvious from the beginning almost that this is that

1236
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: this is sketchy. Um well, not to dumb people. I

1237
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: guess a lot of people buy the end of this

1238
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 1: because they buy into this like war on crime, that

1239
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: like crime is an organized force that's always trying to

1240
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: just murder as many cops as possible as opposed to

1241
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: crime being a pretty disorganized, decentralized, just thing that happens

1242
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: generally as a result of unmet needs, and that it's

1243
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: actually pretty rare, for example, a sheriff to be assassinated.

1244
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: M yeah, that's but yeah, he wants to be Batman, right,

1245
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, he's foiled as too many times. Let's

1246
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: send the teenage eighteen year old boy. Now, our pios

1247
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 1: claim was that Seville had been building a bomb in

1248
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: order to kill him. As is usually the case, the

1249
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 1: people who were helping him build that bomb were undercover officers. Now,

1250
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 1: this sort of thing happens a lot, right and Seville

1251
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: and his family claim that they were entrapped by the

1252
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 1: mcs O, by the by the Sheriff's office. This happens

1253
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: a lot with people who are charged with crimes like this.

1254
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 1: And if you look at FBI RSS of you know,

1255
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: Muslim guys who were going to build a bomb, you

1256
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,680
Speaker 1: often find some sketchy details, right like that seem oh,

1257
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, this might cross the definition of entrapment

1258
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 1: for me. It's the same thing with those Boogloo boys

1259
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: who were trying to kidnap Governor Whitmer. Like you look

1260
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: into that case, there's some like I don't know if

1261
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 1: this this may cross my mental threshold of entrapment. Thing.

1262
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:41,640
Speaker 1: It's fuzzy, is what I'm saying. You often find a

1263
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: lot of sketchy details, but almost never do those people

1264
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 1: win with entrapment defenses because it is extremely hard to win.

1265
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,960
Speaker 1: To actually win with an entrapment defense, it happens almost

1266
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: never because the actual the threshold is very high. You

1267
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: have to show that the idea for whatever a league,

1268
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: a plot was being carried out originated with law enforcement,

1269
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: and that the person being charged would not have had

1270
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 1: that idea or would not have tried to do that

1271
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: crime without the help and encouragement of law enforcement. Um

1272
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: so you have to show basically they had the idea,

1273
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 1: they pressured the defendant into carrying it out, and that

1274
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: he was not predisposed to do it. Otherwise that's a

1275
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 1: high bar. Right. You can get away with a lot

1276
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:24,679
Speaker 1: of kind of sketchy behavior without crossing that line. James

1277
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 1: Saville's attorney, a guy named Farragut, proves all those things

1278
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: in court. He succeeds in an entrapment James get like

1279
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 1: this very rarely happened. That is the level of factory

1280
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 1: that the Americopa County Sheriff's engaged in. He wins on

1281
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 1: an entrapment defense. That does not happen often. Just cloud Yeah, right,

1282
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 1: I mean, like there's been a million cases where an

1283
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: FBI agent has suggested pushed along some kind of wanna

1284
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: be terrorist, wanna be bad guy. There's I mean like

1285
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 1: terms really like literally several times a week you see

1286
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: cases or at least did see cases like this, and

1287
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 1: and I mean, there's hundreds of them, and I've never ever,

1288
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: never heard of an entrapment defense. Yeah, working even as

1289
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: you say, there's a lot of times that there's some

1290
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: pretty sketchy behavior, but by the cops, it is hard.

1291
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: It is hard as a cop to actually get to

1292
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: actually cross the line to where you lose an entrapment case.

1293
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 1: And they do in this like as an example of

1294
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:40,560
Speaker 1: how of how egregious they're being. Um Now, despite the

1295
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: fact that he was totally innocent the entire time and

1296
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:48,000
Speaker 1: was completely exonerated. Um And yeah, I mean basically I'm

1297
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: actually gonna quote from that article. And after the trial,

1298
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: jurors told Farragut, the defense lawyer, they were convinced that

1299
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: Seville had been a pawn and an elaborate media ploy.

1300
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: Our Pio had cameras out there waiting to film the arrest.

1301
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 1: Farregut says, the jurors indicated that this was clearly a

1302
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 1: publicity stunt. Now that's the best case scenario if you're

1303
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:09,439
Speaker 1: this kid, right, you had completely exonerated. He still spends

1304
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: four years in Joe R. Pio's tent jail because, yeah,

1305
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 1: he gets denied bond because he's a terrorist. Who tried

1306
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: to assassinate the sheriff. Now, he and his family did

1307
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 1: win a one point one million dollars settlements. I don't

1308
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 1: know that that makes up for four years of hell

1309
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 1: like this. Um, not not at all. Uh. News articles

1310
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: published at the time suggested this could be a turning

1311
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 1: point in Joe's career, the moment when people finally saw

1312
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 1: who he was and turned against him. Um. It's true

1313
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: that the state Republican Party did briefly declined to endorse

1314
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 1: him for reelection, and that a number of former backers

1315
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 1: pulled away from him, but the voters did not abandon

1316
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 1: Sheriff Joe as a result of this, and in the end,

1317
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: he was re elected to a third term. The way

1318
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,639
Speaker 1: he saw it, he was just getting started. And that's

1319
01:12:56,680 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 1: where we're gonna end for part one. Noah, Um of

1320
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: the Tale of shaff Joe, you just killed me in

1321
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: the gut. Yeah. That that was the big one for me.

1322
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 1: Was like, he faked an assassination plot. He locked a

1323
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:17,920
Speaker 1: teenage boy up for four years over a fake bomb plot.

1324
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 1: Are you fucking kidding me? In his own no salt,

1325
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: no pepper, eat food, too nasty for dogs. Tent City

1326
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: that I mean, he thinks he's Batman, but that's like

1327
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: some super villain stuff. That is some super villain shit.

1328
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,640
Speaker 1: And for the record, I don't think one point one

1329
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 1: millions enough for that kid. Could should have gotten like

1330
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 1: three or four million for that kind of ship. Honestly,

1331
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 1: if I'm like something, I don't want him money. I

1332
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: think Joe should then do a day for every day.

1333
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 1: He should do a day in his own uh city

1334
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 1: for every day I did one. That seems like the

1335
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: more fair recompense if that's the way we handled it

1336
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 1: when police uh lied or falsified evidence to get people convicted, Um,

1337
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: I think that would happen less. But I'm a child

1338
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:14,640
Speaker 1: of Dallas, which had a big fake crub scandal that

1339
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: definitely impacted my feelings on law enforcement as a young man.

1340
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:26,280
Speaker 1: So UM, good shit, good ship. Um, No, you got

1341
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 1: any pluggables to plug before we sail out? For the

1342
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:34,640
Speaker 1: rest for this episode, you can find me on on

1343
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: the twitters at Noah Shackman um. And you can find

1344
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:43,640
Speaker 1: my my publication at at rolling stone dot com. How

1345
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: do you spell r O L L something like that? Yeah,

1346
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: something like that. UM. Check out Noah's work when he

1347
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: starts at the Rolling Stone obviously, check out The Daily Beast,

1348
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:03,600
Speaker 1: who continuously do some of the best reporting on the

1349
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 1: hell world. Um, particularly a lot of like really good

1350
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: Q and on stuff, a lot of yeah, um will

1351
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:14,640
Speaker 1: summer right is uh yeah, it doesn't actually get to

1352
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:17,599
Speaker 1: beat once we're doing a Belling Cat workshop. Yeah oh yeah, yeah,

1353
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 1: and you know, amazing stuff. His book on quans coming

1354
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 1: out soon. Yeah, that's coming out soon. Um, you should

1355
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: check out my man, Spencer Ackerman's new book, Reign of Terror,

1356
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 1: which is coming out really soon. And speaking of former

1357
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 1: Daily Pace, uh folks, now we got the Daily Pas

1358
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: has an incredible crew. I'm so super proud of them. Um,

1359
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: you know you should go visit that website, Rolling Stone.

1360
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 1: I've heard they've done a good story or two uh

1361
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:49,480
Speaker 1: once or twice in their fifty some years of publication,

1362
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 1: and figure we'll do one or two more. Yeah, yeah,

1363
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: it seems it seems like a good goal, one or

1364
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 1: two every fifty four years. Yeah. Man, um, noah, thank

1365
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 1: for being on the show. It has been a pleasure.

1366
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,320
Speaker 1: And we will uh well, well people will be hearing

1367
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: our next episode in a couple of days, but you

1368
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: and I will immediately tear into another chapter in the

1369
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 1: life of Sheriff Joe. Um and just have a miserable

1370
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: time with it. So oh god, I thought this is

1371
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:21,679
Speaker 1: where he's all going to turn happy, this is where

1372
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 1: he decides to dedicate his life to charity. No, there's

1373
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:30,920
Speaker 1: no happy ending to the Sheriff Joe's story. No, I

1374
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: mean no, because he's still fucking alive. Man. It's crazy

1375
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: how long this guy goes without dying. Very Yeah, he's

1376
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 1: really still alive. Yeah, he's like ninety, he's pushing ninety

1377
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: at least. What the funk? He's like Emperor Palpatine. Yeah,

1378
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,600
Speaker 1: he does look more like Palpatine every year. Um, he

1379
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,800
Speaker 1: does not meet the high moral standards. He is a

1380
01:16:53,960 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 1: youthful unlimited power. Yeah, there's more accountability, uh in in

1381
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:05,599
Speaker 1: the Imperial justice system. I think he's a ut nine

1382
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 1: years old. Yeah, spry al right, Episode one over h