1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. We have 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: a vault episode for you here today. This is going 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: to be Hundreds of the Dark Ocean, Part three of four. 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: It originally published three twenty seven, twenty twenty five. Let's 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: go ahead and get weird and deep with this one. 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: is Robert. 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 3: part three in our series on predators in the deep 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 3: and dark parts of the Ocean. Now for a brief 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 3: recap on the previous episodes in the series. The ocean 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 3: can be thought of as having several different zones if 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 3: you imagine them stacked vertically, each with different environmental conditions 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: regarding the availability of light, the availability of food, temperature, pressure, 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 3: and so forth. And to be sure, the majority of 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 3: marine fauna do live relatively close to the surface of 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: the water where sunlight can reach the phytoplankton and the 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 3: other photo autotrophs that formed the base of the food 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 3: chain up there. You know, they photosynthesize things, eat them, 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 3: things eat those things, and so on. Now in centuries past, 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 3: there were thinkers such as the naturalist Edward Forbes, who 23 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 3: observed that you know, the deeper you trawl or plunge 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: into the water looking for life, the less you find, 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: and from that he extrapolated that you know, below a 26 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: certain depth, there will be no fauna at all within 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: the sea. This was the so called azoic hypothesis. We, 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 3: of course, now know that that is not true. And 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: while conditions are harsher and life forms may be less 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 3: dense and less diverse in the depths than they are 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: near the surface, there is never the less a fascinating 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 3: world of animal interactions taking place in the deeper, darker 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: zones of the ocean, even going all the way down 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 3: to the very bottom, down to the Abyssle ocean floor, 35 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 3: and even into the sort of inverted island communities of 36 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: the deep ocean trenches. Now, when you look at the 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 3: animals within these environments, some of them are grazers, you know, 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: grazing on microbial mats. Some of them are scavengers. But 39 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 3: some are also predators and even top predators. And that's 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: what we've been looking at in this series Hunters in 41 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 3: the dark parts of the Ocean. Now in Part one, 42 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,559 Speaker 3: we started by talking about a couple of specific organisms. 43 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 3: One was a type of predatory amphipod crustacean called Dulcabella 44 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: common chaka. 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: The Sweet, Sweet, Sweet Beautiful. 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 3: Darkness, newly discovered and documented in a paper by Weston 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 3: at All from November twenty twenty four. This was a 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: crustacean predator found in the Hadel zone at a depth 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: of almost eight thousand meters in the Atacama Trench, and 50 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: this led us down a tangent of looking at bizarre 51 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: amphipod body forms that was very fun. But we also 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 3: in that episode talked about predatory siphonophores, which can have 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 3: unbelievably weird body forms as well. There's the one we 54 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 3: talked about that's long as a whale, thin as a rail, 55 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 3: and we discussed a specific sighting documented in twenty twenty 56 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: one of a large unidentified predatory ciphonophore in Hadel waters. 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 3: Now in Part two, I started off by talking about 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: an abyssle predatory fish found more than four thousand meters 59 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 3: deep in the Pacific, known as the Gridi fish, which 60 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: was notable at least to me, for having these absolutely 61 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 3: bizarre bean shaped neon yellow plate like depressions in the 62 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 3: top of its head that apparently function as light sensitive 63 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: spots for hunting bioluminescent prey. And then after that Rob 64 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: talked about a couple of deep swimming stods, the strawberry squid, 65 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 3: which inhabits a sort of boundary zone in the midwater 66 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: with a little bit of twilight above and dark water below, 67 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 3: which requires an interesting adaptation of two different kinds of 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: eyes on opposite sides of its body, one for seeing 69 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 3: shadows moving against the faint sunlight above and one for 70 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 3: seeing glowing self illuminated organisms from below. After that, we 71 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 3: also talked about the dumbo octopus, a very very cute, 72 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: interesting little critter that seems to have forsaken many of 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 3: the defense mechanisms of its cephalopod kin because it lives 74 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: deep where predators are less of a concern. And we're 75 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: back today to talk about more. 76 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we have. We have at least a couple 77 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: of different classifications of critters that I think everyone is 78 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: going to be fascinated by, and at least well, I 79 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: think both of them were probably anticipated as well. Now right, Actually, 80 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: just a couple hours ago, I was in my regular 81 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: Wednesday midday yoga class and my teacher, Allison, asked what 82 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: I was working on, and I mentioned deep sea fish, 83 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: and she mentioned that the late great David lynch is 84 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and six book Catching the Big Fish evokes 85 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: deep Sea Fish is kind of Treasures of Introspection and Meditation. 86 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone out there is familiar with 87 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: this book to understand. It's kind of an autobiography but 88 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: also a self help guide and gets into some of 89 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: the meditative concepts that David Lynch gravitated towards. I'm going 90 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: to read a quick quote here from it. Quote ideas 91 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: are like fish. If you want to catch little fish, 92 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: you can stay in the shallow water, but if you 93 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: want to catch the big fish, you've got to go 94 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: deeper down deep. The fish are more powerful and more pure. 95 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: They're huge and abstract, and they're beautiful. Everything, anything that 96 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: is a thing comes up from the deepest level. Modern 97 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: physics calls that level the unified field. The more your consciousness, 98 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: your awareness is expanded, the deeper you go toward this source, 99 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: and the bigger fish you can catch. 100 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: HM. 101 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: So I think that's pretty cool. We can quibble about 102 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: deep sea gigantism and the relative small size of some 103 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: of the deep sea organisms we've been discussing here, But 104 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: in general I will say, yes, these are the waters 105 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: where you find organisms as deeply weird as a David 106 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: Lynch film. 107 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: If my hum sounded quibbli, it was more about the 108 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 3: consciousness physics kind of connection there. But no, I follow 109 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 3: the metaphor absolutely with the deep sea biology. Yeah, the 110 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: fish are certainly they've got to be more pure in 111 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: whatever that means. It just feels right, and as we'll 112 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 3: discuss today, probably more reeking. So are you ready for 113 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: the snailfish? 114 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the snailfish? 115 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 3: Okay. In part one of this series, one of the 116 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: things we got into briefly was an experiment that was 117 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 3: designed to monitor what would happen when a dolphin carcass 118 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: was dropped into the Hadele zone. And as a reminder, 119 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 3: the Hadal zone is the deepest forty five percent of 120 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: the ocean in terms of vertical depth, often defined as 121 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: the space deeper than six thousand meters from the surface. Now, 122 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: while the Hadal zone is almost half of the ocean's 123 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 3: maximum depth, it takes up less than one percent of 124 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: the ocean's horizontal seafloor area because it's limited to these 125 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: deep sea trenches and trench systems. So just in terms 126 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: of depth, these regions are going way beyond even the 127 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: abyssal depth of most of the world's ocean floor, but 128 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 3: in terms of space taken up on the surface of 129 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: the Earth very limited. They're little, tiny islands. So what 130 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 3: this study wanted to examine was what happens when a 131 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 3: large dead animal, in effect a huge cache of food, 132 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: hits the floor of an ocean trench. This obviously happens 133 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: naturally all the time, but we're not around to observe 134 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: it from the beginning when it does happen, and so 135 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 3: they staged these They staged these events where a dolphin 136 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 3: carcass would fall down into hadel waters and then they 137 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: would monitor what happens. One of the findings was of 138 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: a kind of dynamic interaction pattern where first scavengers like 139 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: impipod crustaceans would show up to eat the soft tissue 140 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 3: of the dolphin's body, but how fast the crustaceans were 141 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 3: able to consume that soft tissue was in part controlled 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 3: by the presence of secondary predators who showed up to 143 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 3: eat the amphipod scavengers who were eating the carcass, and 144 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 3: one group of secondary predators mentioned in that research was 145 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: the snailfish. So I wanted to explore more about these creatures, 146 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: figure out what they are and what's special about them. 147 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, who's showing up this deep to interfere with the 148 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 1: work of the initial scavengers. 149 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 3: So snail fishes are any of more than a one 150 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: hundred known species of ray finned fishes grouped into the 151 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 3: family Liparidy. They take different forms, but they tend to 152 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 3: be small, with the largest growing only about a foot 153 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: in length, and not all snailfish are deep trench dwellers. 154 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 3: Various species can be found in habitats throughout the ocean, 155 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 3: so you'll find some of them in shallow, even shallow 156 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 3: coastal waters, and some are in much deeper waters. In general, 157 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 3: snailfish tend to be good at adapting to extreme environments, 158 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 3: so a lot of snailfish species gravitate toward cold waters, 159 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 3: such as in the Arctic and the Antarctic. A snailfish 160 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: is often shaped sort of like a tadpole, so you 161 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: can think of a big, bulbous head and a narrowing 162 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 3: tail and the deep dwelling varieties are often pale or 163 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 3: translucent pink in color. So to picture a deep sea snailfish, 164 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: imagine a fish in the form of a fat, pale, 165 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 3: pink tadpole without scales on its body and instead a 166 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: kind of loose, milky sea through skin which is usually 167 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: covered in a gelatinous slime, and occasionally that skin will 168 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 3: be prickly or spiny. 169 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: They're kind of like how you included a picture here 170 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: of one, and I get a vibe of like a 171 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: sort of a like a pink person faced monster super 172 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: baby that lives in the deep, you know, like they're 173 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: they're weirdly kind of cute. You want to attribute various 174 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: emotional states to them, And I was looking, right, I 175 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: found other Like I found various headlines that refer to 176 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: them as cuties. So it's not just like me and 177 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: my own like weird sensibilities. Like a lot of people 178 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: seem to think that snailfish are kind of cute. 179 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: Let's put a pin in that. We'll come back to 180 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 3: how cute they are. But I think you're right. I 181 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: think they are at once cute and grow, which is 182 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 3: the best kind of cue. 183 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean babies have been nailing that for ages. 184 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 3: So there's a lot that is interesting about snail fishes. 185 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 3: But snailfishes have one very impressive credential that is relevant 186 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: to our topic today, and that is, at least as 187 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 3: of April twenty twenty three, a snailfish holds the record 188 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: for the deepest diving fish that has ever been directly 189 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: observed by humans. And I do have to put an 190 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 3: asterisk on there, because I was reading in one article 191 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 3: there are claimed observations of fish that have been cited 192 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: lower but like not directly imaged or documented, and for 193 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: various theoretical reasons we'll get into those other claims seem 194 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 3: unlikely to be true. But so yeah, I guess we'll 195 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: put a question mark on this the best confirmed sighting 196 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 3: of the deepest diving fish ever. 197 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, because there are a lot of things that are 198 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: possible down there, just based on how little relatively we 199 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: know about it. And you can go all the way 200 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: back to you know, we talked in past episodes about 201 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: the observations on the bathosphere, you know, and the varying 202 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: degrees to which those reported observations have matched up or 203 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: haven't matched up with subsequent human discoveries. 204 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But as far as well documented cases go, 205 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: this is the deepest anybody's ever seen a fish. And 206 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: note that this is not the deepest organism or the 207 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 3: deepest animal ever observed in a reliable way, just the 208 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 3: deepest fish now here. I'm relying on a University of 209 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 3: Western Australia press release about this discovery, which was made 210 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 3: by a team of scientists from Australia and from Japan. 211 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: And I'm also relying on an April twenty twenty three 212 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 3: right up in Scientific American by Tom metcalf. So the 213 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 3: location of this record breaking discovery was within the izu 214 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: Ogasawara Trench, which is south of Japan, at a depth 215 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 3: of eighty three hundred and thirty six met The previous 216 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: record before this for the deepest confirmed sighting of a 217 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: fish was held by a Mariana snail fish more on 218 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 3: that species and a bit at eighty one hundred and 219 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 3: seventy eight meters deepth and that was within the Mariana 220 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: Trench back in twenty seventeen. This new find, which was deeper, 221 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: was in this other trench south of Japan, the izu Ugasawara. 222 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 3: This new record holding fish in twenty twenty three, beat 223 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: the previous record by one hundred and fifty eight meters, 224 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: and as far as I can tell, the observation still 225 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 3: has not been surpassed. This sighting took place during an 226 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: exploration of several trench environments in the Pacific around Japan 227 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two. The expedition was conducted by a 228 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 3: research ship called the DSSV Pressure Drop, So the research 229 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: team used baited cameras plunked down into the deepest parts 230 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: of several trenches, and at one of these baited cameras, 231 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: at this kind of unlikely depth of again eighty three 232 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: hundred and thirty six meters, a fish appear. Interestingly, this 233 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: solitary deep diver was a relatively small juvenile snailfish, which 234 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 3: seems to be able to venture a bit deeper than 235 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: the normal adult range for its species. More on that 236 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: in a moment. The fish in question was id'd as 237 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 3: the genus Pseudoliparus, but the exact species couldn't be verified. Also, 238 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: just two days after the deep fish was caught on camera, 239 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: two more snail fish were actually caught like trapped in 240 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: baited traps at a depth of eighty twenty two meters 241 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: and brought up and rapidly preserved. In this case, the 242 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 3: fish were identified down to the species level, and these 243 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: were Pseudoliperus at Belle yav and Rob I attached a 244 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: picture from this expedition for you to look at, with 245 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: several of these snail fishes crowding around a baited trap. 246 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 3: I'm not sure quite what that is on the trap. 247 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 3: It might be might be a mackerel or something, but yeah, 248 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 3: some kind of bait they've got there. And I think 249 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: the idea is that the dead fish attracts the crustaceans, 250 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: probably amphipods, that come to eat the dead fish, and 251 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: then the snail fish show up to eat the scavengers. 252 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I have to say the look kind 253 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: of cute here looks looks absolutely boopable. And for an 254 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: example of a headline that invokes the cuteness, Atlas Obscura 255 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: has an article about this with the title the world's 256 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: deepest living fish is surprisingly cute. 257 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: It is. It is kind of cute. Again, it's kind 258 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: of on the boundary of cute and ugly or cute 259 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: engross kind of in the way that we talked about 260 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: this with some of the creatures that come to the 261 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: bathhouse in Spirited Away. You know, they're right on that 262 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 3: line there where like are they ugly and gross or 263 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 3: are they adorable? It's a tough call. 264 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: And I think this is compounded by the fact that 265 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: some of the more famous deep sea fish, though to 266 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: be clear fish that don't dive down as deep as 267 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: the snail fish, But the more famous fish, one of 268 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a bit here, are generally 269 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: regarded as like severely grotesque and like aggressively weird looking 270 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: and not cute. So it can come as a bit 271 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: of a shock where people are like, you want to 272 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: see the deepest fish ever. You're like, yeah, I'm in 273 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: for a horror show. And then you look at it 274 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: and you're like, well, you know, oh, quite quite cute 275 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: when I take into account my expectations. 276 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: Give them a snuggle now. On the other hand, I 277 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: did also come across an AP article by a writer 278 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: named Nick Perry which was covering some hatel snailfish discoveries, 279 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: and in that article it said that deep sea trench 280 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 3: snailfish look like quote guts stuffed in cellophane. 281 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, aren't we all really, But but okay, 282 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: fair enough they do. Also, yeah, there is that. They 283 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: do look like little pink bags of guts. I guess 284 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: I can see it. 285 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: So I was thinking about the depth of this, this 286 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: one record holder. Again, that's eight three hundred and thirty 287 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 3: six meters. That is so deep. That's like five point 288 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: seventy miles down. So this is a five mile fish. 289 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: And according to the researchers who led this team, there 290 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: are strong reasons for thinking that if we ever find 291 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: a fish living deeper than this, it won't be by much. 292 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: And again, this limit applies not necessarily to animals. You'll 293 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 3: probably find crustaceans and other types of animals even deeper. 294 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 3: But fish, they're saying, you're probably not going to find 295 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 3: one much deeper than this, and that's because there appear 296 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 3: to be biochemical circumstances that place a pretty rigid theoretical 297 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 3: maximum depth on how far you can go if you 298 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: are a fish. Now, why would that be? How would 299 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 3: that work? Well, Fish that live under extremely high pressure 300 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 3: are only able to do so because of compounds in 301 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 3: their cells called osmolites, such as the molecule you might 302 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: have read about this before, trimethylamine in oxide or TMAO. 303 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: Osmolites like TMAO act as protein stabilizers, so within an 304 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 3: animal's cells, you can think of proteins as sort of 305 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 3: the machine parts that make most cellular functions possible. Proteins 306 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 3: need to maintain their particular folded structure in order to 307 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 3: do what they do, much the same way that the 308 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 3: parts in a machine need to maintain their shape and 309 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 3: the way they move or the machine will stop working. 310 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 3: But physical stresses like heat and pressure can denature and 311 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 3: deform proteins or prevent them from folding correctly, and this 312 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 3: is one of the difficulties of life in the high 313 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 3: pressure conditions of the deep sea. Hydrostatic pressure does violence 314 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: to the proteins in your cells, and so high osmolite 315 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 3: concentrations are an adaptation deep sea animals use to get 316 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 3: around this problem to stabilize their proteins against the high 317 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: pressure environment and basically keep the machine parts stable and 318 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: working the way they're supposed to. And one interesting side 319 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: note that I was reading about, did you know that osmolites, 320 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 3: these compounds that stabilize proteins, are the main cause of 321 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 3: the fishy smell of decomposing seafood. So as a dead 322 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 3: marine organism. You know, like a fish that's not frozen, 323 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: it starts to rot in the sun, begins to decay. 324 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: Bacteria break down the trimethylamine inoxide or tmao into volatile trimethylamine, 325 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 3: which smells fishy. That is the main part of what 326 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 3: the fishy smell is interesting. Come back to that in 327 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 3: the second. So, marine biologists have found that as you 328 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 3: go deeper and deeper in the ocean and the pressure 329 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: gets greater, the fish species that live at each depth 330 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 3: zone have higher concentrations of osmolites. Makes sense, right, Yeah. 331 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 3: That trend continues until you reach the maximum possible concentration 332 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 3: of osmolites in the body tissues, which according to theoretical models, 333 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 3: would be the concentration that would allow fish to survive 334 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 3: at about eighty four hundred meters. So, according to this model, 335 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 3: the fish that was observed in this expedition like eighty 336 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: three hundred and something meters. It was within about seventy 337 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 3: meters of the theoretical limit of fish biology. You basically 338 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 3: can't get enough osmolytes into the cells to stabilize proteins 339 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 3: any deeper than this, which is why researchers don't expect 340 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 3: to find fish much deeper than this one. 341 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: You know, this makes me think back to that paper 342 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: were discussed in the first episode by Dasgupta at all 343 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: depth in predation regulate consumption of dolphin carcasses in the 344 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: hatal zone. Again, they dropped two dolphin carcasses at one 345 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: of the sites. Snailfish were interfering with the the initial 346 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: scavengers and on the other side they were not. Yeah, 347 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go back and look at the 348 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: depths that they were discussing there and see, because it 349 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: makes me wonder, well, did maybe the snailfish didn't arrive 350 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: at one of the drop sites because it was too 351 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: deep for them. And to be clear, this wouldn't this 352 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: would not be out of keeping with the the the 353 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: general conclusions that were made in that paper, which were 354 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: that the exact like shape of the whale fall site 355 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: is going to depend on the depth and on the 356 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, the the organisms that are in its vicinity. 357 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: So again, I'm gonna have to go back and look. 358 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 3: At that, right, So it could be that if a 359 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 3: if a whale carcass falls in a deeper zone that's 360 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: outside of the range, you know, it's too deep for fishes, 361 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 3: basically for predatory fishes. Then the scavenging amphipods have you know, 362 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: easier time of it. 363 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 364 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 3: Now There's something I wanted to come back to about 365 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 3: the fact that the breakdown of osmolites, specifically TMAO causes 366 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: the fishy smell that we associate with decaying seafood. Pairing 367 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: that fact with the increasing osmolite concentrations that go up 368 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: with depth, the depth of a fish's natural habitat. If 369 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 3: you put those two facts together, that made me wonder 370 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 3: do abyssle or hatel fish smell the worst? Like, would 371 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 3: the deeper fish be the most foul smelling of all 372 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 3: the fishiest of all fishy smells? I was looking to 373 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 3: see if there was any any research into this. I 374 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 3: don't know if there's director research into this exact question, 375 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 3: but I did find a marine biologist commenting on it. 376 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 3: So I found a twenty twenty four ap article by 377 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 3: Nick Perry about research on hal snailfish, and this article 378 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 3: cites a marine biologist named Hall Yancey of Whitman College 379 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 3: in Washington State who directly says, yes, Indeed, the deeper 380 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 3: the fish lives, the worse, it will stink. So Hatel 381 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 3: snailfish quite likely have like the ultimate fish smell. They've 382 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 3: got to be a contender. I don't know if anybody's 383 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 3: tested this directly, but it seems a priori that would 384 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 3: be the assumption that they are the kings of stink. 385 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 3: I also have to mention this article was the source 386 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: of that comparison of trench snailfish to guts wrapped in cellophane. 387 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 3: And there was another good one in here, not directly 388 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: from the author, but it quotes a New Zealand marine 389 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 3: ecologist and named Ashley Roden, who caught a number of 390 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: Hadel snailfish from more than seven thousand meters depth in 391 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. And Rodin describes holding on to one 392 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: of these fish after bringing it up from I think 393 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 3: a mackerel baited trap, and Rodin says, quote, it was 394 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: like a water filled condom, a sloppy, gelatinous mass that 395 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 3: moves between your hands. It was very cool and very 396 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: strange to see its organs and everything. But anyway, back 397 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 3: to the discovery of the deepest fish ever from the 398 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: trench south of Japan. According to Professor Alan Jamison, the 399 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: chief scientist of the expedition. Quote, the real take home 400 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 3: message for me is not necessarily that they are living 401 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: at eighty three hundred and thirty six meters, but rather, 402 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: we have enough information on this environment to have predicted 403 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 3: that these trenches would be where the deepest fish would be. 404 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 3: In fact, until this expedition, no one had ever seen 405 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 3: nor collected a single fish from this entire trench. Now, next, 406 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: I want to look at a particular species of hadel snailfish. 407 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:49,719 Speaker 3: This is the Marianna snailfish or pseudo Leparis sweary SwRI. 408 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 3: It's one of these deep adapted species. It's believed to 409 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 3: grow about a foot long. And I'm going to say 410 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 3: this one looks even more tadpolei than most of them do. 411 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 3: I've got a picture for you to look at here, 412 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 3: rob of one specimen, just like a pale wad of 413 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: chewing gum with eye spots and a tail. 414 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this one really does look like something that would 415 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: be in David Lynch's eraser head. 416 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, can't you just imagine it talking? What does his 417 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 3: voice sound like? It's got a cowboy accent for some reason. 418 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 3: It's got to so. Yeah, these things live in the 419 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: Mariana Trench more than seven thousand meters and up to 420 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 3: eight thousand meters below the surface. They're now believed to 421 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 3: be the top predator within the trench ecosystem there so 422 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 3: they feed primarily on crustaceans, but they are probably the 423 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 3: apex of the food chain. The species was actually discovered 424 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: fairly recently, announced in a publication in the journal Zoa 425 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: Taxa in twenty seventeen by Garringer at All and the 426 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 3: article was called Pseudo la Piis suirie, a newly discovered 427 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: hatel snailfish from the Mariana Trench. The authors of the 428 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: study described the new species on the basis of thirty 429 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 3: seven individuals collected from the Mariana Trench between depths of 430 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: six eight hundred ninety eight meters and seven nine hundred 431 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 3: and sixty six meters, so going almost up to the 432 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: eight kilometer mark. And one thing that was interesting is 433 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 3: despite the resource challenges we've talked about, reports are that 434 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 3: these fish tend to be well fed in their natural range. 435 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: The ones that have been caught tended to have full stomachs, 436 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 3: and they conclude that this fish is likely endemic to 437 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 3: the Mariana Trench and This is in keeping with the 438 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 3: observation that, since trench ecosystems tend to be somewhat isolated again, 439 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: kind of like inverted islands, when a snailfish species becomes 440 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: locally trench adapted, it's kind of stuck there. It's kind 441 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 3: of stuck in the specific trench environment or system it's 442 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 3: evolved for. And the author's right quote. The discovery of 443 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 3: another hatal liperid species, apparently abundant at depths where other 444 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 3: fish species are few and only found in low numbers, 445 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 3: provides further evidence for the dominance of this family among 446 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 3: the hadelfish fauna. So again, snailfishes are the kings and 447 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 3: queens of Hades. So in the years following this initial discovery, 448 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 3: researchers continued to look into what made the Marianna snailfish special. 449 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 3: And I wanted to refer to a paper from twenty 450 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 3: nineteen in the journal Nature, Ecology and Evolution by Kunwang 451 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: at All called Morphology and Genome of a snailfish from 452 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: the Mariana Trench provide insights into deep sea adaptation. So 453 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 3: the authors of this study begin by explaining, you know, 454 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 3: it is largely unknown how animals, especially vertebrates survive in 455 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 3: the Hadel zone given the extremity of the physical environment. 456 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 3: So to better understand the vertebrates of the Hadel zone, 457 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 3: the authors look at the specific morphology and genome of 458 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 3: pseudo Leperis suirii. I'm not going to cover everything they 459 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: explore in the paper, just wanted to mention a few 460 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 3: interesting things that stood out to me. Of course, as 461 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 3: we already discussed, fish use osmolites such as TMAO to 462 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 3: stabilize proteins, and these fish are no exception. In fact, 463 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: they are. They are prodigious osmolite factories on the Mariana 464 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 3: Trench snailfish. The eyes are if you see pictures of them, 465 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 3: it looks kind of like they have eyes, like they 466 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 3: have little dark spots. The eyes are non functioning. The 467 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 3: fish did not react to lights from the lander vehicle, 468 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: and genomic analysis also found that these fish were missing 469 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 3: gene variants that are associated with photoreceptor tissues. They have 470 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 3: an inflated stomach, so the stomach of the snailfish is 471 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: larger and takes up more space in the body cavity 472 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 3: than in other snail fishes. Why would that be I 473 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: believe the thinking is in extreme environments where prey density 474 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 3: is lower, you need to have space to eat more 475 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: when you get the opportunity. So I think maybe you 476 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 3: just don't want to be like, oh sorry, there's food 477 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 3: right here, but I am too full to eat it 478 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 3: right right. 479 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: Oversized stomachs this is something we see in some of 480 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: the other deep sea fish that we'll be talking about later. 481 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 3: They also had a larger liver and larger eggs than 482 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: expected for their body size. One thing is we already 483 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 3: mentioned that deep sea snail fishes tend to be non 484 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 3: scaled on their skin. So these these snail fishes also 485 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 3: they don't have scales, and they have this large like 486 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 3: layer of gelatinous mucus covering the body. Is thought to 487 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: serve several functions. Probably it helps them grow, it helps 488 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 3: them move easily. They also have a non closed skull, 489 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: like there's a gap in their skull structure, and this 490 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: may be an adaptation to the pressure environment to help 491 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 3: balance pressure inside and outside the skull. 492 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: All right, keep your head from exploding, gotcha or imploding? 493 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 3: Yeah? And flex bones this is another thing. Instead of 494 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 3: rigid ossified bones, the Marianna snailfish have thin bones made 495 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 3: primarily of cartilage, and these flexible sort of non bones 496 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 3: may also help the fish withstand pressure. And this cartilage 497 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 3: bone system is caused by a mutation in one of 498 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 3: their bone protein genes, which seems to result in early 499 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 3: termination of the calcification of cartilage. So overall fascinating organism, 500 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 3: but it brought me back to a question I know 501 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 3: we've talked about on the show before, So you know, 502 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: apologies old time listeners for coming back to familiar territory, 503 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 3: but I couldn't help but think how so many of 504 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 3: the body forms that we see as scary are a 505 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 3: result of the kind of environment in which we live 506 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: and the predators you find there, you know. So like 507 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 3: when we try to think of what a scary monster 508 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: would look like, often we think of the kinds of 509 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 3: animals you could easily imagine eating a human being, so 510 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 3: you know, it's going to be something with sharp teeth 511 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 3: and big claws, that sort of thing. And so I'm 512 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 3: wondering which types of adaptations and body forms you would 513 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: come to see as those defining you know, a frightening 514 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 3: anatomy or monsterhood if you were a prey organism in 515 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 3: one of these deep sea trenches. Would it be, you know, 516 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 3: like the hule in the skull, or the thin bones 517 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 3: of the thin skin that you can see through, the 518 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 3: gelatinous coating of slime on the body, the broad pectoral fins, 519 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 3: like what would be the scary things to the organisms 520 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 3: down there? Because it's got to be something that looks 521 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 3: like these these critters. 522 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, something with no exoskeleton, disgusting, horrifying. Look at that 523 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: pink flesh. You can see it's guts. I mean that'd 524 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: be pretty horrifying for us as well, of course. 525 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: But well, gut stuffed in selphane doesn't seem It just 526 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: looks like it's like ikey, It's like you don't want 527 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: to touch it, but it doesn't seem like it's gonna 528 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: hurt you. Hmmm, maybe if it were big enough. 529 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. 530 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 3: I guess size is always going to be a major 531 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 3: part of the monsterhood equation. Yeah, but oh man, what 532 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 3: what what a beauty? 533 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: All right? Well, at last, I would like to turn 534 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: our attention to one of the most iconic fish of 535 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: the deep sea, the deep sea anglerfish. A true superstar, 536 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: this become the poster fish for the deep end. Even 537 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: pops up in such animated films as Finding Nemo pops 538 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: Up of course on SpongeBob square Pants and as this 539 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: was the fish I was referencing earlier. When you think 540 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: of deep sea fish, you probably think of a handful 541 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: of illustrations of deep sea fish. I used to have 542 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: a pote when I was a kid. I had a 543 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: poster for out of It, like a national geographic that 544 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: had a bunch of these illustrations, and I was always 545 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 1: captivated by several of the than the needle of toothed 546 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: a variety of deep sea fish, and the anglerfish is 547 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: definitely one of the more alarming looking. You know, it 548 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: has that frog like face, sharp teeth, and then of 549 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: course this bizarre bioluminescent lure that hangs in front of 550 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: its face and encourages its prey to move in and 551 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: check out the light, only to be sucked into this 552 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: fierce maw. 553 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 3: I assume that's where the name of it comes from, 554 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: because it's like a sort of like a fishing pole. 555 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they're fisherfish. Yeah, that's why. So when we 556 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: talk about anglerfish in general, we're talking about multiple species 557 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: of the teleost order lavaforms. Anglerfish in general live in 558 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: deeper waters, though there are some lavaform species that live 559 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: in shallower waters as well. We previously discussed some shallow 560 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: water frog fishes in our episode episodes about the Sargasso 561 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: Sea concerning an ecosystem, you know, right near the surface 562 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: of the water. All told, when we're talking about angler fish, 563 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: we have sea toads. We have brightly colored frog fishes, 564 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: and we have batfishes, we have goose fishes and more. 565 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: They're all ambush predators of one sort or another. They'll 566 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: also all do a little bit of scavenging. They're not 567 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: too proud. Some hunt on the seafloor, others in mid 568 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: water or again even near the surface. Now, why all 569 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: the like frog and toad Why aren't we invoking these 570 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: terrestrial organisms in particular. Well, they tend to have frog 571 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: like heads due to their broad mouths, which they use 572 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: in suction feeding, which is something you see in a 573 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: lot of sea organisms. In order to swallow something. What 574 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: do you do? You just suck it in. You just 575 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: create that vacuum and just take in a portion of 576 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: water that has an organism in it and you consume 577 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: it hole. But again, here we're talking about deep sea varieties. 578 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: Of the angler fish found in tropical to temperate latitudes 579 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: at depth of twenty five hundred meters or eighty two 580 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: hundred feet, so at their deepest they get down to 581 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: the bathypelagic zone the midnight zone, which is plenty deep, 582 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: a lightless realm of pressure and chilling waters. Now you 583 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: asked about their name and their lures. Yeah, the anglers 584 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: are of course known for their lures. They are again 585 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: the fishermen fish of the sea. Some seafloor anglers have 586 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: a frilly but non bioluminescent lure, sometimes said to resemble 587 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: a worm, and then batfishes actually release a bait chemical 588 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: from their lures in order to bring in prey, but 589 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: the deep sea anglerfish are best known for their glow. Morphologically, 590 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: the lure or even lures can vary greatly, so what 591 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: we're talking about here is generally the first dorsal fin 592 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: spine has modified. It's evolved into a long, wiggling rod 593 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: an elysium, and again they can wiggle it so they 594 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: can like active move it to help bring in the prey. 595 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: And then there's a lure at the end of the 596 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: elysium called the esca and in bioluminescent anglerfish. The esca 597 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: is a sack of glowing bacteria chef's kiss. Yes, so 598 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: these are symbiotic photobacteria. The symbiotic relationship here is that, 599 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: of course, the anglerfish uses the light to draw in prey, 600 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: and in return, the photobacteria get to live in a 601 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: little fleshy knob at the end of this protrusion on 602 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: the fish's head, which I know doesn't sound very attractive 603 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: to most of us, but if you're a if you 604 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: are a photobacterium, this is advantageous because you get to 605 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: live with a whole bunch of your fellow photobacteriums by 606 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: the millions, inside of this lure, and you get to 607 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: see the world. Baby, maybe not all the world, but 608 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: you get to travel around. It takes you places. 609 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 3: So it's a mutual stick form of symbiosis both for 610 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 3: the benefit. 611 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. Now. One of the big questions that 612 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: scientists have puzzled over for years is well, how do 613 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: the fish first acquire the bacteria, and scientists have largely 614 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: been unsure whether this is a situation where developing anglerfish 615 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: would encounter the bacteria in the open ocean, or if 616 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: they were inoculated with them by a parent during spawning, 617 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, or or in some way like it's passed 618 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: on parent to offspring. Now, most of the recent research 619 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: I was looking at does seem to point more towards 620 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: the idea that they acquire the photobacteria in the open ocean. 621 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: And it's also worth noting that the anglerfish do have 622 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: specific species of bacteria that they pair it with, and 623 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: when when you get into some of the other details, 624 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: you can see how you could potentially lean one way 625 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: or another and trying to figure where they get this stuff, 626 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: because on one hand, young female angler fish apparently don't 627 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 1: seem to yet have room for the bacteria in that 628 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: little knob in the esca. Also, as Baker at All 629 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: reported in twenty nineteen's Diverse Deep Sea anglerfishes share a 630 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: genetically reduced luminous symbiate that is acquired from the environment. 631 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: This was published in Ecology Evolutionary Biology. They point out 632 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: that if the bacteria were transferred parent to young, then 633 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: then we would be able to observe it in the 634 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: bacteria DNA. There would be this sort of lineage of 635 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: coevolution and we don't see the telltale markers of that 636 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: with the angler fish and their specific bacteria. 637 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 3: So it seems to be a more kind of capture 638 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 3: and cultivate kind of situation right now. 639 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, the reduced genome of these particular 640 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: bacteria species seem to indicate that they've lost the ability 641 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: to exist separately from their hosts fish. This is something, 642 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 1: of course, we see in such symbiotic relationships in nature, 643 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: as say the leafcutter ants who have their own fungus 644 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: that has essentially become extinct in the wild because it's 645 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: a domesticated species. And so on one hand, given that 646 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: it seems like these bacteria species have lost the ability 647 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: to exist without the angler fish, well, then maybe it's 648 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: something that's passed on initially from parent to offspring, because 649 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: otherwise how could it live free out there in the water. However, 650 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: other studies have added different wrinkles to this by pointing out, well, okay, 651 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: maybe there are examples, and it seems like there are 652 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: examples of free floating symbiants of the angler's photobacteria, at 653 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: least in some cases. So based on what I've read 654 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: here and elsewhere, it sounds like the current wisdom on 655 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: the topic drifts somewhat towards the acquired in the wild argument, 656 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: but with some possible shades of the parent transfer theory 657 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: as well, like perhaps they pick up the bacteria from 658 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: an environmental population that is supplied by symbiants ejected from 659 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: adult anglerfish. Now I'm not sure if they're ejected at 660 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: some point during the fish's life or at death, but 661 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: the idea here would be that perhaps the bacteria live 662 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: the majority of their life within the anglerfish, within that 663 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: fleshy knob at the in the esca, but then at 664 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: some point they're going to escape or they're going to 665 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: be released, and it's when they're free living that's when 666 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: they're picked up by other anglerfish. Okay, the esca by 667 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: the way, does have a pore on it that seems 668 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: to be the likely exit entry point in question, so 669 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: it's not, you know, completely sealed. There does seem to 670 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: be like a hatch to go in and out of. 671 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: I should also add that the exact findings on all 672 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: this it may depend on which specific anglerfish species and 673 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: corresponding bacteria species you're looking at, but again, things in 674 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: general do seem to tip toward the acquired in the 675 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: wild model. However, they get their glow. They definitely use it, 676 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: drawing in hungry or perhaps mate seeking prey that the 677 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: anglers then suck and gobble into their large mouths. We 678 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: already mentioned that it's good to have a large belly 679 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: in addition to a large mouth in the deep, because again, 680 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: you don't know when you're gonna get your next meal, 681 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: and in the case of the anglerfish specifically, this means 682 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,479 Speaker 1: they can also kind of take in oversized prey. They've 683 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,720 Speaker 1: got the big mouth and they've got the big belly, 684 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: so they're really here for it. They're going to clean 685 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: house anytime there's an all you can eat buffet. Also, 686 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: those teeth, those noticeable teeth of the anglerfish. They can 687 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: depress the teeth at will to allow unobstructed travel down 688 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: their throat, and they can likewise raise them again like 689 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: the bars of a cage, to prevent engulfed prey from escaping. 690 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 3: Again, that is horrifying. Yeah, so like the teeth. Wow, 691 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 3: So when it's trying to get its mouth around something 692 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 3: that's just too big to get past the teeth, the 693 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 3: teeth come down, but then they close again. 694 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like what big teeth you have, Grandma to 695 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: bite me with? Note to trap you with to keep 696 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: you from escaping me. 697 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 3: Let me get these out of the way so I 698 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 3: can get in there. 699 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: I should also note that the light on the end 700 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 1: of the lure, it has a kind of lid, a 701 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,720 Speaker 1: kind of like flap of skin that can muscularly hide 702 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: or reveal the glow. I guess we might think of 703 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: it almost like an eye lid or something. Now. The 704 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: other really noticeable thing and headline catching thing about anglerfish, 705 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: of course, is the extreme sexual dimorphism we see in 706 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: some anglerfish species. The female is larger and fiercer by 707 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: a considerable margin in these species, and the male's main 708 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: purpose is to provide sperm for sexual reproduction. So for 709 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: black sea devils, for example, there are like five species 710 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: of black sea devil. The male is free swimming but 711 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: doesn't even feed as an adult. In other species, the 712 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: male is small and parasitic in nature, so what it 713 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: does is and in general the males, again, they're small, 714 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: they often have like oversized sense organs, and they are 715 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: basically like heat seeking little missiles. Their one goal in 716 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 1: life is to find the female, which you know, this 717 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,720 Speaker 1: matches up with with other modes of reproduction. Sexual reproduction 718 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 1: we see in the animal kingdom. But when they get there, 719 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: some of them, particularly like these black sea devils, they 720 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: will attach to the female's body. They will latch on 721 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: and they will fuse with her body. 722 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 3: Almost blurring the line between like the male adult itself 723 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 3: and like the germ cells. Like it's almost like an infection, like. 724 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: Let me become part of your body, let us share 725 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: a circulatory system, because that is exactly what happens. There 726 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: is a there is a merging, there is a fusing 727 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: of the male and female, and in some cases multiple males. 728 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 1: The female will have multiple males attached to her. Joe, 729 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: if you if you slide down in our notes here, 730 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: I included an image here and you can really see 731 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: I mean when I say there's a difference in size here, 732 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: it is extreme. The female here looks like she just 733 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: has You could mistake this for just like a little 734 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: flourish on the creature's back, But that is a male 735 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: that is fused with her. It would be like, I 736 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: don't think a mole. Yeah yeah, it would be like 737 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: you have a male if the male human being was 738 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: the size of a squirrel, you know, compared to the female. 739 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: Like that's that's how small he is. 740 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 3: But wait, does she have two males stuck to her? 741 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 3: Is there another one on her face? 742 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: Or is that the lure that may be a I'm 743 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: not completely certain on that, but indeed, yeah, females will 744 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: end up with multiple males, and the males continue to live, 745 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: but they become entirely dependent on the female for nutrients. 746 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: They don't feed, they're just latched on. They are essentially 747 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: part of her body. The upside for her is they 748 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: don't take up much space. They're small, and they also 749 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: require comparably little nourishment, so they're not too much of 750 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: a drain, and they're just they're ready to provide sperm 751 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 1: whenever she is ready to reproduce. Again. This comes down 752 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: to the idea that in these deep waters you may 753 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: have trouble running in to prey, and when you do, 754 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: you need to be able to be ready to eat 755 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: them entirely, eat as much as you can. And likewise 756 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: it's going to be hard to find a mate. So 757 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: when you find one, you better be ready to fuse 758 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: with her body. And or if you're the female, you 759 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: need to go ahead and attach them to you and 760 00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,959 Speaker 1: carry them with you so you can use them later. 761 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,879 Speaker 3: It's a brilliant adaptation, perfect it is. 762 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: It's amazing. And it's by the way, the reproduction is 763 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: still carried out externally via spawning. So the females release eggs, 764 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,879 Speaker 1: the males release sperm, and then the fertilized eggs drift 765 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: off in the water column. 766 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 3: The male is right there, he's stuck to her. 767 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's just right there, right there on the 768 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: hull of the ship. I mean, there's a lot crazy 769 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: about this. Again, this is about as far from the 770 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: human model of sexual reproduction as you can you can get, 771 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,240 Speaker 1: and it certainly gets into like, certainly body horror realms 772 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,319 Speaker 1: when you start imagining like human versions of this. But 773 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,799 Speaker 1: one of the crazy things about the merging here is 774 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,439 Speaker 1: that we're dealing with genetically disparate male and female counterparts, 775 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: and yet they're able to fuse together without invoking a 776 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: strong anti graft immune rejection response, let's say, on the 777 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: part of the female. This is you know, this is 778 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: the what you generally see in cases of parabiosis, particularly 779 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: of the surgical variety, in pretty much all other vertebrates, 780 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: any kind of grafting like this, you know, limb transplant 781 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: organ transplant tissue transplant, depending exactly on what you're transplanting. 782 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: You know, when you get down into bones, it's a 783 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,760 Speaker 1: little different, but generally you're going to generate an immune 784 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: system response resulting in the rejection of the grafted tissue, 785 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: unless immunosuppressant medications are employed, or I know, in the 786 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 1: case of some organ transplants, you'll have bone marrow transplants 787 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: that are sometimes employed to reduce rejection. 788 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 3: You're saying, the angler fish immune systems do not do this. 789 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 3: They can have the male graft right on there and 790 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 3: the immune system does not reject. 791 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: It exactly exactly. So yeah, like this, we have to 792 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: jump through so many hoops to actually successfully transplant tissues, limbs, 793 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: and so forth with our human bodies, and with angler 794 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,799 Speaker 1: fish that they just do it as part of their 795 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: sexual reproduction. And so this has been a major point 796 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,720 Speaker 1: in a fascination for scientists. I was reading an article 797 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: from twenty twenty two that gets into some of this, 798 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 1: titled histo compatibility and Reproduction Lessons from the Anglerfish by 799 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: Noah Isakoff in the journal Life, and they point out 800 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: that it's thought that anglerfish evolved to quote tolerate the 801 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: histo incompatible tissue antigens of their mate and prevent the 802 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:30,240 Speaker 1: occurrence of reciprocal graph rejection responses. And so they likely 803 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: this is where it gets interesting. This doesn't mean that 804 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: they just like flipped off all defenses and they're like, well, 805 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: we don't care about infections now because we need to breed. 806 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,839 Speaker 1: It's likely the author points out that they evolved other 807 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,760 Speaker 1: immune strategies to protect against, to protect against the sorts 808 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: of infections and threats that those very defense systems would 809 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 1: otherwise be in place for. So they're arguing, there's obviously 810 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: there's so much we could learn, you know, from these 811 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 1: fish to you know, you know, to better understand how, 812 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: for instance, on one hand, how we might just protect 813 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 1: against infections, like what sort of strategies are they using 814 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: that are different from what we see in other organisms? 815 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: And then of course, the the obvious ramification here is 816 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: what if we could learn from them to improve human tissue, 817 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: limb and organ transplants. Those are the potential quote lessons 818 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,359 Speaker 1: from the anglerfish. Now, Joe, I only shared like one, 819 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: maybe two pictures of anglerfish in our document, but I 820 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: do I recommend that everyone out there just do a 821 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: few image searches. Look around there is anglerfish vary so 822 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,399 Speaker 1: much in their appearance and their morphology. You know, it's 823 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: really wild and wonderful. And once you see, especially when 824 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: you get out of deep sea angler fish and you 825 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 1: start looking at like all of these like colorful examples 826 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 1: you find in shallower waters. Yeah, there's some amazing diversity here. 827 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny. We were just talking about 828 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,359 Speaker 3: how ecology affects esthetic values, you know, in terms of 829 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 3: like what looks scary to us is affected by the 830 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,879 Speaker 3: animals that were afraid could harm us. And if you, 831 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,280 Speaker 3: you know, you're a prey animal and the Mariana trench 832 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 3: would what looks scary to you be these cute little 833 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 3: snail fishes? I think we have to ask the same 834 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 3: question about the biology underlying aesthetics. If you were a 835 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 3: highly evolved anglerfish species, what looks sexy to you? 836 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 837 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,760 Speaker 3: Interesting question looking either way at the at the anglerfish sexes. 838 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you're a female anglerfish, you're really 839 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,319 Speaker 1: looking for a guy who no longer eats and is 840 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: really ready to change for you. 841 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,440 Speaker 3: Trying to imagine the cosmetic trends of like technology of 842 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,479 Speaker 3: anglerfish that evolve technological intelligence. What would they be doing 843 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 3: to try to enhance the look of the jailbar teeth 844 00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 3: and be messing with the lure somehow? 845 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Up. Some of them have kind of a like 846 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,120 Speaker 1: a beard going on that is also biolininescence, so they 847 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,840 Speaker 1: might be, you know, wanting a more robust, glowing beard. 848 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: You know, that's that's certainly advisable. 849 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 3: These are wonderful creatures. 850 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And I mean they're horrifying, but they're also there. 851 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 1: They are attractive in their own way. I is doing 852 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,240 Speaker 1: a quick insearch and I'm running across tattoos that people 853 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,320 Speaker 1: have of angler fish, so they have their own vibe 854 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,279 Speaker 1: going on that definitely people love. All Right, we're gonna 855 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 1: go ahead and close up this episode of stuff to 856 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: blow your mind. We were just chatting off Mike and 857 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 1: we think we're probably gonna come back and do one 858 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: more episode, but we're gonna leave it a little open. 859 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: High likelihood that you're going to get another episode on 860 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: deep sea predators and it will also be gross and 861 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: amazing and weird. But if not, you know, we'll come 862 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: back with something else. In the meantime, we'd like to 863 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,760 Speaker 1: remind everyone that stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily 864 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 1: a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays 865 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,880 Speaker 1: and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays. 866 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: Set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a 867 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema. Follow us wherever you 868 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Follow us on various social media accounts. 869 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 1: I can't keep track of what's going on social media 870 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: these days, but we're on some of them and you 871 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: can follow us. 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