1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You were listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: us Live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listening 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: Some really troubling news from Ukraine today. As I don't 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: even know where to begin here, we be Odessa is 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: a good place to start. 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 3: These attacks are incredible. 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: It's just been you know, relentless bombing and missile attacks, 10 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: in this case hitting an Orthodox cathedral that is a 11 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: World Heritage site. And you were reporting last week you 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: could probably shed some light on this. So what's happening 13 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: to wheat and corn prices after this drone attack? 14 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 3: Overnight? 15 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: Russia used an Iranian made drone to hit the port 16 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: of Rennie, which is sending prices yea through the roof. 17 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: It's just, you know, this thing just keeps on going. 18 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: You come back, it's another Monday, and the headlines don't 19 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: seem to change. 20 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 4: No, and they're quite horrendous as you point out, Joe, 21 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 4: and we have to keep in mind that when we're 22 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 4: talking about these attacks, we are talking about them taking 23 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 4: place in one of the greatest breadback baskets of the world. 24 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 4: Ukraine is a major exporter of grain, so when Russia 25 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 4: pulled out of the deal and when these attacks started, 26 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 4: the concern was that this was going to dramatically disrupt 27 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 4: the flow of grain exports from Ukraine to the rest 28 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 4: of the world. Hence the reaction you're seeing in things 29 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 4: like wheat with those futures up about eight point six 30 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 4: percent today after we saw big spike initially next week. 31 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 4: And to the attack that you were pointing out, Joe, 32 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 4: that is a river port, and the concern here is that, yes, 33 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 4: Ukraine does have alternate routes through which to get the 34 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 4: grain out. If they can't use ports like Odessa in 35 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 4: and around the Black Sea, that they could use the 36 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 4: river or other modes of transport. But if Russia's attacking 37 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 4: those two, it starts to limit those pathways of getting 38 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 4: this grain out, and that's when you really start running 39 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 4: into trouble. 40 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: It's pretty scary stuff here, and I'm glad that we 41 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: have an opportunity to talk about it with Daniel Freed, 42 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: the Wiser Family Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic Council, spent 43 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: time as Ambassador to Poland. He was also Assistant Secretary 44 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: of State for Europe and National Security count senior director 45 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: with a great sense of what's happening in the region. 46 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: Mister ambassador, we welcome you back to Bloomberg Radio. 47 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: It's great to have you. 48 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: When you see Vladimir Putin taking actions like this more 49 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: than five hundred days into this conflict, sending food and 50 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: wheat prices higher as he weaponizes food. Essentially, what does 51 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: that tell you about the status of this war of attrition? 52 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 5: It tells me that Putin knows he's not winning the 53 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 5: war on the battlefield, so he's looking around for leverage, 54 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 5: and the leverage he's chosen now is to hit food 55 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 5: prices and hope that the thread of starvation will convince 56 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 5: the rest of the world to pressure Ukraine the surrender. 57 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 5: It's not going to work, but Putin is desperate. He's 58 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 5: not winning on the battlefield, and so he's looking around 59 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 5: for every club he can find. If you listen to 60 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 5: Russian rhetoric, it's quite hysterical, with spokesmen talking about nuclear 61 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 5: attacks on the United States or invading Poland. It's wild 62 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 5: stuff and there's almost no chance any of this actually happening, 63 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 5: but it speaks to the mindset and the destructive bent 64 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 5: that Russia is on. The Ukrainians have defended Kie very 65 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 5: well against Russian air attacks, but those defenses don't seem 66 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 5: to be working as well in Odessa. It may be 67 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 5: because the Russians are attacking with different kind of missiles, 68 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 5: but in any event, it is hurting and it shows 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 5: that the war is still in an intense phase and 70 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 5: Putin has not given up, But it also shows that 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 5: he's not winning. 72 00:03:58,240 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 4: I want to return to what you just said about 73 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 4: this is a play at making the rest of the 74 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 4: world put pressure on Ukraine to surrender given what it's 75 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 4: going to do to food flows and food prices. If 76 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 4: not doing that, how can or should other countries respond 77 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:12,559 Speaker 4: to Russia weaponizing food. 78 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 5: Well, much depends on the country's most affected, the African 79 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 5: countries and countries in the Middle East. Putin has countered 80 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 5: on the fact that a lot of these countries have 81 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 5: not backed Ukraine strongly, that they seem to be taking 82 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 5: hands off position, But now their interests and their lives 83 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 5: are at risk because of what Putin is doing. And 84 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 5: the best case scenario would be if the African countries, 85 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 5: for example, and there's going to be in Africa Russia 86 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 5: summit taking place soon. If they put pressure on Russia 87 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 5: hard pressure to stop, to stop using their people as 88 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 5: hostages and threatening their lives, that might have an impact 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 5: on Russia. That would be the best outcome. And some 90 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 5: African countries have put back rather hard on Russia. I 91 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 5: think the president of Kinya said that the Russian moves 92 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 5: a stab. 93 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 3: In the back. 94 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 5: So there are things that the most affected countries can do. 95 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 5: And of course Europe and the United States can and 96 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 5: should help Ukraine export as much of the grain as possible, 97 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 5: but just given the infrastructure limitations and the attacks, that's 98 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 5: going to have limited impact. The rail There are only 99 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 5: so many rail lines and between the Ukrainian and Polish borders, 100 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 5: and they're pretty jammed up already right now. 101 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, ambassador, you made reference to Russia's lack of success 102 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: on the battlefield. The Secretary of State Anthony B. Lincoln 103 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: spoke on CNN about the status of the fight here, 104 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: talking about impressive gains for Ukraine recently. 105 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 3: Here's what he said. 106 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 6: The objective was to erase Ukraine from the map, to 107 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 6: eliminate its independence at sovereignty, to subsume it into Russia. 108 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 6: That failed a long time ago. Now Ukraine is in 109 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 6: a battle to get back more of the land that 110 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 6: Russia sees from it. It's already taken back about fifty 111 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 6: percent of what was initially seized. Now they're in a 112 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 6: very hard fight to take back to take back more. 113 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: Seems that's important for people to know that Ukraine has 114 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 2: taken back half the land that Russia initially seed. But 115 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: then as soon as you see a headline like that, Ambassador, 116 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: you see what happened, for instance, in Odessa early on Sunday, 117 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: damaging an Orthodox cathedral in the city center, a World 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: Heritage site. 119 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: How would you describe the state of this battle? 120 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 5: Secretary at Blincoln is spot on right. Ukrainians had two 121 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 5: major successful offensive last year, one against Harkiv Province. The 122 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 5: other was liberated much of Hershan Province all the way 123 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 5: to the Dnepro River, and there now trying to push 124 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 5: back the Russians. On the ground, the Russians are falling back, 125 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 5: but only slowly. Ukrainians are attacking Russian infrastructure, military infrastructure, 126 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 5: and supply depots, hoping to weaken the Russians so they 127 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 5: can have a breakthrough. That's the battlefield Russia is compensating 128 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 5: for its the fact that it's on the defensive by 129 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 5: going after civilian infrastructure, by going after food and hitting 130 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 5: civilian targets in Odessa. So this shows that the Ukrainian 131 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 5: fight is succeeding, although more slowly than the Ukrainians and 132 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 5: we would want. It shows that the Ukrainians do have 133 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 5: a reasonable chance of success. I'm not saying their victory 134 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 5: is inevitable. I'm merely saying that it's possible, and that 135 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 5: therefore the United States and European countries need to be 136 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 5: all in and providing Ukraine the weapons it needs to 137 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 5: have the greatest possible. That's air defense, as President Solinski said, 138 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 5: that's long range artillery missiles, so the Ukrainians can put 139 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 5: Crimea at risk and hopefully undermine Putin's strategic position in 140 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 5: this war. 141 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: Well, as you talk about providing weapons Daniel to Ukraine, 142 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 4: there is of course the cluster bomb issue the US 143 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 4: earlier the summer making the decision to get those to 144 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 4: Ukraine despite concerns about potential civilian casualties collateral damage. And 145 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 4: this is something that John Kirby spoke with Bloomberg about 146 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 4: just last week on balance of power take listen to 147 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 4: what he said. 148 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 7: The reports that we're getting from the Ukrainians are that 149 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 7: they're using them in a responsible way, in an effective way. 150 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 7: They're getting behind Russian defensive lines and going after units 151 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 7: and commanding control capability. 152 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 4: For the Russians. 153 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: They're being judicious in. 154 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 7: The way they're using it, just like they promised us 155 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 7: that they would. 156 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 8: And of course, even before we made this decision to 157 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 8: give them cluster munitions, we've been helping them with demining 158 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 8: efforts and that will absolutely continue whenever this war is 159 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 8: over and the Ukrainians know that they have our firm 160 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 8: commitment to that. 161 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 4: He, of course, is the National Security Council coordinator speaking there. 162 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: So what is your view on this Clusterbamb's decision? Knowing 163 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 4: it took the US a while to come around to 164 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 4: that conclusion, and I'm just wondering if reluctance to send 165 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 4: other weapons and supplies may ultimately be sent as well 166 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 4: despite concern. 167 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 5: I think the cluster munitions decision was a tough one. 168 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 5: I think we made the right decision in the end. 169 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 5: I think that the cluster munitions do have a military use. 170 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 5: I also think that we were concerned that we didn't 171 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 5: have the stockpiles of other kinds of munitions. So the 172 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 5: real decision was are we going to send cluster munitions 173 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 5: or none at all or very few? So I think 174 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 5: they made the right decision. I hope the administration makes 175 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 5: the decisions soon to send the so called attackers the 176 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 5: long range of artillery. Last week it looked like we 177 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 5: were moving toward the decision. Over the weekend there were 178 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 5: press reports that we weren't. To me, as an old 179 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 5: veteran of many administrations, that sounds like a debate within 180 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 5: the administration is finding its way into the press. I 181 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 5: think we need to make that decision and help the Ukrainians. 182 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 5: I think that the sooner the Ukrainians succeed on the 183 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 5: battlefield and undermine the Russian position, the sooner this war 184 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 5: will end on terms that are sustainable and just in 185 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 5: terms of Ukrainians can accept, which would be in the 186 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 5: American interests. Success is not inevitable, but it is possible, 187 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 5: and we ought to be forward leaning as we try 188 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 5: to help the Ukrainians achieve that success. 189 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: We're spending time with Daniel Freed, the former Ambassador to 190 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: Poland now at the Atlantic Council. What jumped out to 191 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: me in that conversation that we had with John Kirby 192 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: on Friday. I haven't heard him say this anywhere else, 193 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: and we did ask him about this directly. Ambassador, is 194 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: whether the US would commit to helping Ukraine go back 195 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 2: post war and dig up, neutralize, and handle all of 196 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 2: the undetonated munitions that came from those cluster bombs. He said, yes, absolutely, 197 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: that was part of the agreement. How unusual is that commitment? 198 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 5: Everything about this war is unusual. That is, the United 199 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 5: States has not been has not provided such weapons to 200 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 5: a country fighting off an aggressor in a without being 201 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 5: a party to confolt itself in a very long time. 202 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 5: This is new. I'm glad he made that offer. 203 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: Do you believe it? 204 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 5: And that was oh, yeah, sure I do. I think 205 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 5: it is having sent cluster munitions. I think it would 206 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 5: be unconscionable and unsustainable for the It States to walk 207 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 5: away and say, well, we're not going to help you 208 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 5: d mind. Of course we're going to help them, Demond. 209 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 8: But you notice he. 210 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 5: Said, when when the conflict is over? Now, I don't 211 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 5: know how you define over, but I think the offer 212 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 5: is both good and credible, and I think it's the 213 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 5: only thing we could do under the circumstances. 214 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 4: Of course, the conflict being over is a timeline that 215 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 4: none of us can really anticipate at this point. 216 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 5: Well, but you're spot on right. You could have a 217 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 5: full agreement, you know, an actual piece. You could have 218 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 5: a kind of weird armistice where the underlying issues aren't resolved. 219 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 5: You could have there are several other scenarios. Much depends 220 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 5: on the battlefield. And don't forget the Ukrainians are under pressure, 221 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 5: but the putent system seems to be under pressure as well. 222 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 5: The Pregosian mutiny showed how brittle that system can be. 223 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 5: And Progosian is not the only person in RUSSI dissatisfied 224 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 5: with the results of the war so far. So you're 225 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 5: dealing with a lot of variables, and many of those 226 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 5: variables could break Ukraine's way and our way. 227 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: Last one for you, Ambassador, We only have a moment left. 228 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,599 Speaker 2: But as the former ambassador to Poland, I need to 229 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: ask you about what we're hearing from Lukashenko, the president 230 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: of Belarus, warning that the Wagner Group wants to march 231 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 2: on Poland, and apparently the Poles are moving, are moving 232 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 2: troops around. Your initial reaction tells me pretty much what 233 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: I need to know. 234 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: You think it's a joke. 235 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 5: The Polish military would make short work of Wagner on 236 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 5: its own. Okay, They're not on their own. They are 237 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 5: US forces, including in northeastern Poland, the US Combat Battalion. 238 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 5: Other US and NATO assets are available. Putin knows. With 239 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 5: the bulk of the Russian Army committed in Ukraine, they 240 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 5: have no chance taking on Poland or any other NATO country. 241 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 5: They're trolling us. They're trying to panic wave their arms, 242 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 5: throw mud rocks, spaghetti at the wall. See what sticks 243 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 5: not going to happen. 244 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: I love a definitive answer from the Ambassador, Daniel Freed. 245 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: We thank you as always Now at the Atlantic Council, 246 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: former Ambassador to Poland, former National Security Council Senior Director 247 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: with Kayleie Lines. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg. 248 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the 249 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 250 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 251 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 252 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 253 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: It's not often the vice president gets on a plane 254 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: to rebuff a governor, but that is what happened Dana. 255 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: Last week in Florida's Kamala Harris delivered a speech criticizing 256 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: Florida's controversial black history standards adopted by the state Board 257 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: of Education. This turn into a back and forth that 258 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: lasted the weekend and is one that some might suggest, 259 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: some might argue is now hanging over Ron DeSantis in 260 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: his presidential campaign. Here's Kamala Harris. 261 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 9: Let us not be distracted by what they're trying to do, 262 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 9: which is to create unnecessary debates to divide our country. 263 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 9: This is unnecessary to debate whether enslave people benefited from slavery? 264 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? 265 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 9: Are we supposed to debate that now? 266 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: DeSantis spoke in Utah over the weekend alongside more than 267 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: a dozen state lawmakers, pushed back on what he heard 268 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: from the Vice president. 269 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 10: I mean, I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. It's totally outrageous. 270 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 10: You guys can look on the website of the Florida 271 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 10: Department of Education. You know they got a lot of 272 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 10: scholars together to do a lot of standards and a 273 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 10: lot of different things. But these are the most robust 274 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 10: stand in African American history, probably anywhere in the country. 275 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: If you haven't been in touch with this whole story. 276 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: The standards were just approved last week. They do not 277 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: come from Ronda Santis, but of course this is in 278 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: Florida and he was asked about it. They include instruction 279 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: for public school students that enslaved people quote developed skills 280 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: which in some instances could be applied for their personal 281 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: benefit unquote. This is where we start running into an issue, 282 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: and the governor was asked about that at that same event. 283 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 10: I didn't do it, and I wasn't involved in it, 284 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 10: but I think what they're doing is I think that 285 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 10: they're probably going to show some of the folks that 286 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 10: eventually parlayed, you know, being a blacksmith into doing things 287 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 10: later later in life. But the reality is all of 288 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 10: that is rooted in whatever is factual. They listed everything 289 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 10: out and if you have any questions about it, just 290 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 10: asked the Department of Education. You can talk about those folks, 291 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 10: But I mean, these were scholars who put that together. 292 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 10: It was not anything that was that was done politically, and. 293 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: So now headlines are running that the Florida governor is 294 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 2: doubling down on this stand and it's a potentially bad 295 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: look for somebody running for office, particularly one who wants 296 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 2: to eat into the polling and fundraising of a senator. 297 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: Tim Scott, let's reassemble the panel. Rick Davis and Jeanie 298 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: Shanzano Bloomberg Politics contributors are with us here. Rick, how 299 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 2: deep did Ron DeSantis just dig the hole? 300 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 11: Yeah, it's a pretty good sized hole, especially at a 301 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 11: time when he's trying to reboot his campaign and try 302 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 11: to convince donors not to go to other people. I mean, 303 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 11: this is one of the biggest issues they had, is 304 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 11: that donors were starting to get tired of this anti 305 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 11: woke war that he'd been waging against everybody, whether it 306 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 11: was you know, the corporations like Disney now, the education system. 307 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: You know, other. 308 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 11: Different you know, cultural classes in America, and it's just 309 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 11: not where donors want to go, you know. And a 310 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 11: time when the president is so vulnerable and economic issues, 311 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 11: why aren't we talking about economic issues? So I think 312 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 11: this is a hard soul and as you could hear 313 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 11: from your side, he's pulling back. I mean, oh my gosh, 314 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 11: call the Education Department. This sounds like something they came 315 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 11: up with. But he came up with the Education department. 316 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 11: They're his people, So I thought, actually, Vice President showed 317 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 11: a lot of agility by rewriting her schedule to get 318 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 11: down there and take it to him directly. Because at 319 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 11: the end of the day, this is what the government 320 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 11: has to figure out, is how they manage a presidential 321 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 11: campaign in a monkst doing their day job. And this 322 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 11: was the first time I've seen, you know, some agility 323 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 11: on a part of the Democrats actually take advantage of 324 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 11: what is clearly a faux pa by DeSantis. 325 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: What did you make of that move by Kamala Harris Genie. 326 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: She apparently gave them eight hours notice or something to 327 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: get on an airplane here. 328 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 12: Yeah, she did absolutely the right thing. And if ron 329 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 12: DeSantis wants to talk about ridiculous and outrageous, let's go 330 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 12: back to the fact that these Skys and other people 331 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 12: did not just come together. He signed the bill in 332 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 12: twenty twenty two called Stop Wrong, Stop Wrongs to Our 333 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 12: Kids and Employees Actor, the Stop Woke Act, as he 334 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 12: likes to call it, and that is the act that 335 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 12: brought these people together, and that is why the curriculum 336 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 12: was reconsidered. And for him to be tying himself and 337 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 12: not trying to make the case. Did I just hear 338 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 12: this correctly? That skills as a blacksmith led to something 339 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 12: later on in life was a positive thing, so we 340 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 12: could reconsider slavery. This is, you know, not the calling 341 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 12: card you want to be using. And neither are the 342 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 12: terms I didn't do it and I'm not involved in it, 343 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 12: which is what he said. Who wants a presidents that's 344 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 12: going around saying I didn't do it and I'm not 345 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 12: involved when he signed the bill, it is outrageous. To 346 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 12: his point, it is ridiculous. But it's not Kamala Harris visiting. 347 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 12: It's what's happening in Florida under his watch. 348 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 2: Do you agree with Rick that administration wide, this has 349 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: been the success. We saw a statement that came out 350 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: from Cedric Richmond call that utterly evil sign of extremism 351 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: among Republican presidential candidates. 352 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 12: It is and you know, sometimes I look and my 353 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 12: jaw just drops. It's as if Ron DeSantis is working 354 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 12: for the Democrats. To Rick's point, why aren't you talking 355 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 12: about the economy. Why aren't you talking about issues people 356 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 12: care about and vote on. These are these issues that 357 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 12: he keeps coming back to, whether it's Disney, whether it's 358 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 12: you know, these woke issues that he wants to talk 359 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 12: about that are doing nothing but driving down his support 360 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 12: and his poll numbers and his ability to raise funds 361 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 12: tell the story. 362 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 2: Latest we've seen Rasmussin out with one today, Trump fifty seven, 363 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: DeSantis thirteen, Fox Business. Over the weekend in Iowa, Trump 364 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: forty six, DeSantis sixteen. 365 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: Has he peaked? Rick? Is it irresponsible for me to 366 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 3: be asking that so early? 367 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 11: Well, I mean he's going down in the polls. Yes, 368 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 11: Whether he's peaked or not is another question, because what 369 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 11: goes down can come up. I lived through the two 370 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 11: thousand and eight campaign with John McCain where he went 371 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 11: from first to last to first, and so it's not 372 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 11: an easy trick to play. But the reality is it's 373 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 11: a long way from being decided this primary election, and 374 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 11: he'll have another look. I mean, there's gonna be a 375 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 11: time when, you know, this all gets scrambled up again, 376 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 11: whether it's through another indictment or the debates, there are 377 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 11: going to be bumps in the road for everybody, and 378 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 11: the question is can he take advantage of that? 379 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 2: So the the tell it like it is pack, which 380 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: is supporting Chris Christie is out with a new ad 381 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: with eyes on the debate, which is apparently one week 382 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 2: from today. Yes, that's correct, Milwaukee, the first RNC debate. 383 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: Donald Trump's already talking about running a competing event and 384 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: Chris Christy really wants to show up because that, you know, 385 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: is obviously the moment he's looking for. Here's what the 386 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: ad sounds like. 387 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 8: Because that's what they'll say if you show up, especially 388 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 8: that guy Christie. 389 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 3: It's the chicken. 390 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: If you don't go, you'll be called a coward, a 391 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: chicken reduced to throwing spitballs from the sidelines. 392 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 13: So Donald, you needed to side. 393 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 3: Are you a chicken or just a loser? 394 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: And this is a fairly a real ad plan in 395 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: three states. What do you think, Genie, does it actually 396 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: lay the bait here in the right way? 397 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 12: I think it does. I think this is a winner 398 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,239 Speaker 12: for Christy either way, whether Trump shows up or not, 399 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 12: and it will probably succeed in goating Trump into coming. 400 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 12: Let's not forget Chris Christy knows Trump very very well, 401 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 12: and Chris Christie holds Trump responsible for almost killing him 402 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 12: with COVID during that debate in twenty twenty. So it's 403 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 12: a lot of personal animis in addition to political animus, 404 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 12: and he is going to do everything in his power 405 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 12: to show that Trump is a chicken if he doesn't 406 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 12: show up that debate, and if he shows up, to 407 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 12: take him to task for what he describes as you know, 408 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 12: the evils which Trump engaged in in the following the 409 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 12: twenty twenty election. 410 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: Does this actually go Donald Trump into doing something record 411 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: Does it say more about Chris Christie's need for him 412 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 2: to be in person on the stage. 413 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 11: First, I applaud the use of chickens in campaign commercials, 414 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 11: and I'm not saying I ever did it, but people 415 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 11: used to dress up like a chicken and walk around 416 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 11: people's events calling them chickens. 417 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: So this just is an. 418 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 11: Electronic version of that, and I'm all for it because 419 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 11: I think it's the perfectly timed look. He's trying to 420 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 11: get under Trump's skin and he's trying to get attention, 421 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 11: and this does both Okay. 422 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 3: Well, we'll see it. 423 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: Do you expect that he'll actually show up because he's 424 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 2: talking about doing a show with Tucker Carlson now, and 425 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: I suspect that'll get much better ratings than the RNC. 426 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 11: Well, the only thing I know for sure is there 427 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 11: will be a guy in a chicken outfit at that debate. 428 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: I want to hear more about this. 429 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 2: What do you think, Genie, how many candidates are on 430 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 2: that stage, because it's actually pretty interesting at this point 431 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 2: what only two or three candidates would be will heard 432 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 2: Mike Pence, maybe the governor of North Dakota. 433 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 3: Don't make it that that's it though. 434 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 12: That's it. Yeah, he's saying he is making it. So 435 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 12: it's going to be, you know, a fairly good size, 436 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 12: probably not as big as we saw in twenty sixteen, 437 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 12: but it's going to be a fairly big size. And 438 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 12: who knows, I don't know if they still have time 439 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 12: to qualify at this point, but you know, I think 440 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 12: the real question is going to be does Trump show up? 441 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 12: He doesn't really have much of a reason to show up, 442 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 12: except if he is so frustrated by the chicken calls 443 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 12: that he decides to show up and take it to 444 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 12: people like Chris Christy, And that is just going to 445 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 12: be so much fun for all of us. 446 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 2: That's right, so Asa Hutchinson that that's the other Mike 447 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: Pence will it would be the Pence Hutchinson Herd debate. 448 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 3: I guess Berg and we'll see how he does. 449 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: But I understand the money's been flowing, so who knows 450 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: what happens with the undercard. 451 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: If you will, you're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on 452 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: podcast catch us live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg 453 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, 454 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: or listening on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 455 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: Eagle Pass is a section of our southern border in 456 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: Texas that has seen the second highest number of migrant 457 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 2: crossings this year. That is why Governor Greg Abbott chose 458 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 2: Eagle Pass for the new booi and barbed wire experiment 459 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: that has now got the attention of the federal government. 460 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: The Justice Department has notified Abbot, and for that matter, 461 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 2: of the Attorney General in Texas that it's pursuing legal 462 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: action to remove the barrier that is actually goes right 463 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: down the middle of the rio grand imagine the floating 464 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 2: buoys intertwined with razor wire. 465 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: It's not new. 466 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: Governor talked about it on Fox News on the fourteenth 467 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: of July. 468 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 14: We have a razor wire, mile after mile after mile 469 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 14: of razor wire that prohibit people from being able to 470 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 14: enter into Texas in the first place. And right behind 471 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 14: that razor wire are National Guard soldiers and Texas Department 472 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 14: of Public Safety officers making sure those people do not 473 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 14: get in. Every single day we're adding more that race. 474 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 14: In addition to that, we now have these buoys in 475 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 14: the water to prevent people from even crossing the middle 476 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 14: part of the Rial Grand River coming into the state 477 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 14: of Texas. 478 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 3: So they say this is unlawful. 479 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: The DOJ says it's unlawful, pointing them to Section ten 480 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 2: of the Rivers and Harbor's Acts because it also could 481 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: be a barrier for passage here. 482 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 3: In the Rio Grand. 483 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: And some say that it is also well inhumane. You 484 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: have a run into some barbed wire before let's assemble 485 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: the panel for their take on this, because we're going 486 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 2: to be hearing a lot about it. The Governor of 487 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 2: Texas is pushing back in a statement saying Texas will 488 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: fully utilize our sovereign authority to respond to the border crisis. 489 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: That any name checks Potus on Twitter that he he 490 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: tags him that he says potus created. Rick Davis and 491 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: Genie Shanzano certainly have thoughts on this. Bloomberg Politics contributors Genie, 492 00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 2: who wins this battle? 493 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 12: You know, I'll tell you who loses? Are these people 494 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 12: trying to cross the border. There was the leak from 495 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 12: Mike Nicholas Wingate I think is his name. A medic, 496 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 12: a DPS officer, leak to the Houston Chronicle, an email 497 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 12: he sent to his supervisors detailing the inhumanity of what's 498 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 12: happened there. As we hear Abbot talking about the razor 499 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 12: wire proudly. You have a pregnant woman nineteen years old, 500 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 12: caught in the razor had to be cut out and 501 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 12: had a miscarriage. You have a man trying to save 502 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 12: a child caught in the razor wire, deeply cut up 503 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 12: while he was trying to get him free. A fifteen 504 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 12: year old with a broken leg. Children, this medic reports 505 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 12: being kicked back into the river. And the whole point 506 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 12: is that Operation Lone Star that the governor likes to 507 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 12: talk about, has not succeeded in sending people back across 508 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 12: the river. It has killed them and has maimed them. 509 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 12: It has required medical care. And what he's done, and 510 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 12: the Houston Chronicles reporting on this beautifully is he has 511 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 12: ensured that the border patrol that is trying to get 512 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 12: these people water and care is having to contend with 513 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 12: razor wire and this illegal buoy that he's put there. 514 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 12: So it should I'm glad the DOJ filed these charges. 515 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 12: This is a danger and it is also illegal in 516 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 12: the state, federal, and international courts. 517 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: The Department of Public Safety trooper that Genie refers to 518 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: wrote that the wire is increasing the number of drownings 519 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: Rick because it's forcing people into deeper parts of the 520 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: water when they try to cross. Is this the wrong 521 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 2: move for Governor Abbott because he would tell you it's 522 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: this type of diversion that is needed. 523 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 11: Yeah, it's kind of hard to tell how this is 524 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 11: going to end. I'm certainly not an expert in the 525 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 11: eighteen hundred's provisions that governed the Rio Grande and where 526 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 11: the border is, but it's pretty obvious that the federal 527 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 11: government controls that waterway in a partnership with the Mexican government, 528 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 11: and I suspect they overrule the State of Texas on land. 529 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 11: Their ability to put a fence up is pretty well 530 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 11: proven over time. And so whether it's the buoys or 531 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 11: the razor wire, you know, like I don't want to 532 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 11: mince words, but like that's where the legal arguments are 533 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 11: going to go. The moral arguments are exactly what Genie said. 534 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 11: In fact that we're still talking about, you know, people 535 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 11: being mistreated like this even though they're trying to enter 536 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 11: the country illegally. The greatest country for good in the 537 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 11: world hasn't got a better solution than to expose children 538 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 11: and pregnant women to razor wire. Makes no sense at all. 539 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 3: Well, there you have it. 540 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: It's also a risk in navigation. I don't know how 541 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 2: much stuff is crossing the Rio Grand at this during 542 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: this season, at this time of year below. The images 543 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: that we've seen make it look like there's plenty of 544 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: water in there, and we know there's plenty of water 545 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: to drown in. Genie, I just wonder if that's a 546 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: reason in itself for Texas to pull back on this. 547 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 12: It absolutely is. We had Beto o'rour come out and say, 548 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 12: twenty six asylum seekers this year drowned and died crossing. 549 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 12: He accused the governor having blood on his hands, and 550 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 12: you know, politically, Democrats have had a really tough time 551 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 12: addressed what is a real crisis at the border, even 552 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 12: though crossings are down this time of year, and yet 553 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 12: Abbott has almost single handedly handed them aligne. We heard, 554 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 12: you know, not just from Batool Rourke, but Roland Gutierres, 555 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 12: Joaquin Castro, Henry Kuayer who doesn't often agree with the others, 556 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 12: all of them taking the governor to task for what 557 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 12: they describe as inhumane treatment at the border. So politically 558 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 12: this is a loser for the governor, not just a 559 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 12: legal loser and again violating all kinds of international, federal 560 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 12: and state laws. 561 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: Well, this is going to be obviously a major issue 562 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: on the campaign trail Rick certainly once we get through 563 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: the Republican primary and we're in a general and a 564 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: lot of the real worries about what might happen and 565 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 2: the dire predictions of what might happen following the end 566 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: of Title forty two have not come true. To what 567 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: extent will Joe Biden have a leg to stand on 568 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: in this argument? 569 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,719 Speaker 11: It's going to be hard for Democrats to make a 570 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 11: good news story out of this. Oh gee, we have 571 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 11: less illegal immigration than we had before and so it's 572 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 11: it cuts both ways. Certainly their constituencies want more of 573 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 11: a comprehensive reform, Republicans build a wall types. 574 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 12: Look. 575 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 11: I mean, you know, two of the key states this year, 576 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 11: two of the six swing states by most people's evaluation 577 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 11: for the presidential election are Georgia and Arizona, Arizona being 578 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 11: a border state and Georgia being affected by the Gulf. 579 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 11: You know, this is you know, I hate to say it, 580 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 11: but Republicans are going to probably have the advantage here 581 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 11: because a lot of people have been tired away. The 582 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 11: current administration has handled the immigration and even though, as 583 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 11: you point out, you didn't have this huge flood right 584 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 11: after Title forty two ended, you still have a lot 585 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 11: of illegal immigration coming across the border. 586 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: I guess to your point, it's more difficult to make 587 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: the argument when you're saying it's not as bad as 588 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: some people thought it would be. Rick Davis and Genie 589 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: Shanzano are great panel with some final thoughts coming up 590 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: next year in a story in the case of Texas 591 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: that we're talking about. We're going to keep an eye 592 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: on for you and we'll let you know when there 593 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: is some resolution. But this could take a minute as 594 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: the DOJ faces off with the Lone Star State on 595 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: the Buoys and the Barbed Wire. 596 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the 597 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 598 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 599 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 600 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 601 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: I just want to say happy anniversary. Fiftieth anniversary of 602 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: hip hop coming up here. It's actually next month, so 603 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 2: I'm getting a jump on this, but it's important because 604 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: they passed a resolution in the Senate commemorating this anniversary. 605 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: Kaylee Limes. 606 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something that the majority leader is very 607 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 2: excited about. 608 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 5: You. 609 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: This is because it was fifteen twenty Sedgwick av in 610 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: the Bronx, his hometown where hip hop was born. 611 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 15: Hip Hop has transcended language, race, age, both graphic and 612 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 15: socioeconomic barriers. Many people can attest to the fact that 613 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 15: hip hop actually changed their lives for the better, gave 614 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 15: them purpose and meaning. I know many of them myself, 615 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 15: many of whom are New York City and Bronx residents. 616 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 15: So hip hop is great. It's a uniquely American art 617 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 15: form that quickly blossomed into a global movement. 618 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 2: Now, did you know, however, that actually the majority leader 619 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: is a bit of a rapper? 620 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: I did not. 621 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 3: I did not know this personal. 622 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 4: This is new information. 623 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 3: Did they like this? 624 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: An important inflection point like this that brings us to 625 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: this moment? 626 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 3: It was? 627 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: It was August of twenty twenty one when the Majority 628 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: leader laid down some skills? 629 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 15: I want here, Jimi Daisy's the highest ranking black elected 630 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 15: official in New York. 631 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 9: What about me? 632 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 3: Okay, now on the. 633 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 14: Chuck, what he. 634 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 13: Give you some birth Come on, this is quite a 635 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 13: warm up. We go here, we go, c e s 636 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 13: and we. 637 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 14: All know that Brooklyn's and raise your hands. 638 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 10: Give a shock. 639 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: I'm going to shut up. My rhyme ran out. 640 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 9: Not that, but. 641 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 4: It did. 642 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 11: Rhyme. 643 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: If you're the majority leader of the US Senate, you 644 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: could do a lot worse than that. It's the fiftieth anniversary, 645 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 2: believe it's the eleventh of August. 646 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 3: We'll talk about it, all right. 647 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 4: I look forward to that next month. 648 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: Poor Kayley Lines never knows what's gonna happen when she 649 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 2: walks in the studio, but I'm. 650 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: Always happy to be part of it. If you'll beat you. 651 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 4: Back here tomorrow, will Killer Chuck begin. 652 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to The Sound on Podcast. 653 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, 654 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: and anywhere else you get your podcasts. 655 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 3: And you can find us live every weekday from Washington, 656 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 3: d C. 657 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: At one pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.