1 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. We're opening today's episode with an excerpt from a 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: letter written on November around probably eight sixty nine. My 3 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: dearest Arthur, how very kind of you to think of 4 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: me on my birthday. I had no idea that you 5 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: would do, so it was very good of you to write, 6 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: and I am really very grateful for it. I require 7 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: no remembrances of my sister's husband, as the many kindnesses 8 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: he has bestowed upon me will make me remember him 9 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: for many a year, and the birthday present he is 10 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: so kind as to promise me, will only be one 11 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: addition to the heap of little favors I already treasure 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: up and we'll cut it there and go to the 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: signature and says, believe me, your affectionate sister in law, 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: Fanny Winnifred Park and uh, Fanny Winnifred Park in this 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: letter is writing to a fellow named Lord Arthur Clinton. 16 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: That's right, we'll get to you. Okay, we'll circle back 17 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: to this part of the story. Welcome to the Ridiculous history. Yeah, 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, who are you? Okay? And I'm Ben. 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: You are still Ben, yes, And that's what they call me, 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: uh in this part of the world. And we are 21 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: of course joined as always with our super producer, Casey Pegram. 22 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: What do they call you elsewhere in the world, Ben, 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: And do you have a knighthood that we don't know about? 24 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: Are you a sir or a lord? I don't know 25 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: if it is something you could pronounce, not just you specifically, 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: I mean the human tongue. Yeah, got it. It's kind 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: of weird, but you know how it is. You get 28 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: in situations, you travel, Yeah, whichy stuff happens? Yeah, you 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: make deals whatever. Boy, we got off the we got 30 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: off the rails really quickly on this wal shaking my 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: shaking his head. Okay, So the Fanny in question who 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: is writing to Lord Clinton is someone known as Mrs 33 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: Fanny Graham like Graham Cracker, right, And the sister she 34 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: is referring to is someone named Ms. Stella Bolton or 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: occasionally she will sign things as Stella Clinton. That's right. 36 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: And they referred to each other constantly as sisters. Um. 37 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: But in fact, these two quite theatrical individuals were in 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: fact their Christian names were Ernest Bolton and William Park, 39 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: and they were in fact men who were widely known 40 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: in the London theater community UM as being very successful 41 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: cross dressers. And I just want to point out right 42 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: up front, yeah, I thought that term was antiquated. I 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: wasn't sure if that was like the okay thing to say, 44 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: but I did look it up on the Gay and 45 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation website which has a media section, 46 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: and cross dresser is there for term does not imply 47 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: um that either individual is gay, but it's just specifically 48 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: referring to someone of a gender that likes to dress 49 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: like a member of another gender. And that was the 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: case with Fannie and Stella Rights. So. Stella, also known 51 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: as Ernest, was born in eighteen forty seven, the child 52 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: of a stock broker, and Park was born in eighteen 53 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: forty six, the child of a barrister, so a legal official. 54 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: That's right. And Stella's mother encouraged him from an early 55 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: age to kind of follow that impulse to wear clothing 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: of of the the opposite sex, which was kind of 57 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: common in Victorian era, or not less uncommon than it 58 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 1: is now. That's right, because women, for a long time 59 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: we're not allowed to act in the theater, so parts, 60 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: female parts were played by men and drag, right, and 61 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: this this was an old tradition, and these two people 62 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: were talented actors. Bolton in particular was known for having 63 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: a wonderful soprano voice, and they both regularly played female 64 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: parts in legitimate theaters and then also at this time, 65 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: some theatrical productions would go to uh country house private 66 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: homes for private event of like let's say, um, philanthropists 67 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: of the arts. They would have a salon at that 68 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: house and like host some sort of event where there 69 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: would be a play put on and a collection of 70 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: various wealthy individuals from the community would go there and 71 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: check it out, like Lord raving Ham Poutin on the Ritz, 72 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: Lord Pilkington of Ebbsworth. Yeah, Lord Webby Toes hand Time 73 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: the of the of the old Northern English hand time dynasty. No, 74 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: but we are The point is true and and it's 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: important thing to to mentioned. They were playing these female 76 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: parts in theatrical productions, but they were also uh wearing 77 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: clothing that Victorian society said should only be worn by 78 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: women off stage. Yeah, like in public, like walking around 79 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: town and um, just just to paint your picture here. 80 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: They were not necessarily professional actors. It was something they 81 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: like to do in their free time. But in their 82 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: day jobs, their day lives. Earnest Um who was twenty two, 83 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: and Frederick who was twenty three, just a year old. 84 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: That's right. Frederick was a law student, and I believe 85 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: Ernest was a clerk um at a law firm. Um 86 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: and I think he ended up working at a bank 87 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: as well at some point. And let's let's examine their 88 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: lives a little in a little more details. So these 89 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: are famous friends. They referred to each other as sisters. 90 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: They have this really strong bond and you know, they're 91 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: in their early twenties. What a time to be alive, right, 92 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: glory days. They also do not shy away from public 93 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: attention or controversy the dresses of the time. For anybody's 94 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: interested in the history of fashion, we'd also like to 95 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: recommend our Pure podcast Dressed available now wherever you find 96 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. But their clothing that they would wear, 97 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: it was incredibly complicated, at least to me, unlike a 98 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: slacks and address shirt guy. But it's important to note 99 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: that they also dressed as what would stereotypically be considered 100 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: men two, and they would stroll back and forth what's 101 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: called the derby. This is from a great article on 102 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: Indiana dot e d you off the pedestal. Uh. They 103 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: would attract attention because they would wearing male dress, but 104 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: they would also wear makeup, which was normally associated with 105 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: women at the time. That's right. There were several accounts 106 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: of folks who knew them around town who said that 107 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: they thought that they were too gay women wearing men's clothing. 108 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: And there were accounts of folks who when when seeing 109 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: them wearing women's clothing, thought they were two gay men 110 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: wearing women's clothing. So they like, the gender identity is 111 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: extra kind of muddled up here in in a really 112 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: interesting way. The thing about it is to theaters, in 113 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: particular in London were kind of a hotbed for this 114 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: sort of underground gay world was certainly not accepted um 115 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: in the mainstream. These theaters would be away for folks 116 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: in this scene to connect with one another obviously before 117 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: you know Facebook and tender and scruff and things like that. 118 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: They had to have away and also to kind of 119 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: keep it secret. Yeah, there was another thing that occurred 120 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: called molly house. Do you hear about this? So? A 121 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: molly house was a term that was used in the 122 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: eighteenth and nineteenth century to describe a meeting place. Uh, 123 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: this kind of meeting place, particularly in England, and they 124 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: were generally taverns, bars essentially coffee houses or sometimes private rooms. 125 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: And the thing about it is, at this time any 126 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: kind of same sex activity was considered illegal and remained 127 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: a capital offense until the eighteen sixties, capital offense meaning 128 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: the death penalty, and sodomy, the act of sodomy carried 129 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: that sentence, sodomy being a pretty loaded term, absolutely, and 130 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: in this context that word refers to a particular type 131 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: of penetrative sex act. Yes, that is, that is correct. 132 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: And it's a very important point that we're making here 133 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: because this need for secrecy was not some kind of like, 134 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: oh fun marketing thing like those fake speakeasy bars that 135 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: are so common in the US these days. This was 136 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: necessary to protect these people's lives. And it just goes 137 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: to show how bold Fannie and spell a word in 138 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: kind of flouting this and just you know, doing their 139 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: thing and going to these very public places, wearing these 140 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: outfits and flirting with very powerful men. Um. In fact, 141 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: the letter man that you read at the very top 142 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: of the show was written to one of these powerful 143 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: men who plays a very important part in this story. Yes, yes, 144 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: we should set him up before we dive in. Good call. 145 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Lord Arthur Pelham Clinton Uh as an English aristocrat born 146 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty and he was, you know, creme de 147 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: la creme of society at the time he went to Eton. 148 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: He was in the Royal Navy, He was in the 149 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: Crimean War. He was in Parliament for three years. He 150 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: was in parliament, he had a personal connection with the 151 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, who was the godson of William Gladstone. This 152 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: guy had what we call the juice. He had connects. Yeah, absolutely, 153 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: And he had a relationship in eighteen seventy with Stella 154 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: or Ernest Bolton. And at the time he was technically 155 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: considered a naval officer, but he was retired and he 156 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: was formerly at one time he had been a man 157 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: of great wealth and means. But a few years before 158 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy he had to declare bankruptcy to the tune 159 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: of like but seventy thousand pounds back then, so a 160 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: little bit of inflation calculation, casey, I don't know if 161 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: we have a sound cue for that. That amounts almost 162 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: six million pounds today. So he was deep. He had 163 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: a lot of problems, but he had found love with 164 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: Stella or Ernest Bolton. And we should take this time 165 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: to mention the fact that Stella, between Stella and Fanny, 166 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: was considered the more feminine looking one. And if you 167 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: see pictures of them, of which there is one with 168 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: Lord Arthur and both of them, um, Stella is as 169 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: much more effeminine features. And Fanny doesn't even really look 170 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: like a female in this picture, looks wearing kind of 171 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: a sweater and has more of a cropped haircut. Uh. 172 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: And it's very interesting and mentioned in several of these 173 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: articles we've been looking at. One in particular on the 174 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: Guardian mentions the fact that when you look at pictures 175 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: of the two of them and you see Fanny, you 176 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: might wonder, by today's standards, how people may have been 177 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: confused about the gender of this person. Uh see, yeah, 178 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: that's uh. That's a great article by Katherine Hughes Fanny 179 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: and Stella, The young Men who Shocked Victorian England. It's 180 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: a review of a book by Neil McKenna, who does 181 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: some great research here. I think we've we've set this 182 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: scene right there, pushing these social boundaries in a way 183 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: that probably has several of their friends and and uh 184 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: loved one saying be careful watch out well we should 185 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: also just one last thing is that Stella presented herself 186 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: as the wife of Lord Love, Lord Clinton, Lord Clinton. 187 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: And that's yeah, and that's why in the excerpt of 188 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: the letter we read from Fanny, that's why you hear 189 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: them say anything sister in law, sister in laws, right, 190 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: and uh, they took this relationship very seriously. It wasn't 191 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: just like some in joke. And when you read these letters, 192 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: it's crazy, especially some of the short the shorter ones, 193 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: kind of dicey ones where like they're kind of like 194 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: feuding a little bit. Yeah, it's like, hey, don't take 195 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: what Stella said personally. She was drinking and yeah. Or 196 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: there's one where where Stella's saying to Lord Clinton, how 197 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: dare you be so rude to me? And you know 198 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: it's very like, you know, terst kind of lovers spat 199 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Um, So we have set the scene, Ben, 200 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: and now the year is eighteen sixty nine, Yes, the 201 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: years eighteen sixty nine. You see, it wasn't just civilians 202 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: taking notice of the adventures of Fanny and Stella around town. No, 203 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: the local law enforcement notice as well, and they started 204 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: following the pair, monitoring their movements for like a year. Yeah, 205 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: an intensive year. Was their real crime that they could 206 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: have been addressing, Yeah, absolutely did. London was a very 207 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: dangerous place in those days, and so they followed them 208 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: for a year. And let's fast forward to a Thursday 209 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: on April That's right. The pair is attending a performance 210 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: at the Strand Theater in London with a mutual friend 211 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: of theirs, right, Hugh Alexander Mundel. And as per usual 212 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: when they're going out of a night to the theater, 213 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: they are dressed to the nines, wearing evening frocks with 214 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: all of the Coutremont gloves, bodice is everything that would 215 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: go along with it, lace that, Yeah, the whole line. 216 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: And um, they actually have a private box. They're the 217 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: detective who was following them as saw them meet to 218 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: other people. But as they were leaving, as you said, 219 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: no police superintendent and a police sergeant had joined with 220 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: the detective while the group was watching the show, and 221 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: they arrested Bolton Park and this other person who Alexander Mundel, 222 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: as they attempted to leave, the others escaped. The three 223 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: arrested individuals were then subjected to a humiliating battery of examinations. Yeah, 224 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: that's a perfect way to say, Yeah, to establish whether 225 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: they had in fact had that, like, had experienced that 226 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: sexual act right that they were they were specifically looking for. 227 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: And then they were brought to the magistrate at the 228 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: Bow Street Magistrates Court the next day and they were 229 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: not allowed to change, They were not given the option 230 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: to change into different clothing. They were just kept overnight 231 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: and then hauled out, which to me seems like another 232 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: purposeful act of humiliation. Oh absolutely. I mean they were 233 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: forced to stay in the jail cells wearing their wigs 234 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: and everything. And there's a great quote in this review 235 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: of the Neil McKenna book from Katherine Hughes that describes 236 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: the scene as such, after a night in the cells, 237 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: with wigs slipping and stubble poking through, it was pretty 238 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: clear to the pact and panting courtroom that the two 239 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: tarts were actually young men. Very strange way of putting in. 240 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: I feel like this was old who would write like that? 241 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: Why would they call them tarts? That seems really offensive. 242 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: It's still British term that there is, but tart is 243 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: an archaic term. That's fair, Okay, I'll go on their names. 244 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: According to the charge sheet, where Ernest Bolton and Frederick 245 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: Park to their friends, they were Stella and Fanny, and 246 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: in the newspapers they now became front page fixtures known 247 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: as the funny he she ladies tremendously offensive. This is 248 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: when it officially becomes what's called the Bolton and Park scandal. 249 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: So at this time there is a minor law that 250 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: they could be considered breaking, which is called personation of 251 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: a woman. Yeah, so I think it was a misdemeanor. Yeah, 252 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's a lower charge. It's definitely not 253 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: a capital offense. And what the court system is trying 254 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: to do in the preceding legal arguments here is they're 255 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: trying to prove not that these people were quote unquote 256 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: personating a woman, but that they were engaged in unlawful 257 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: sexual relations. Yeah, that's right. I mean, it seems to 258 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: me like they were trying very desperately to make an 259 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: example of the two um in a in a really 260 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: horrific way that I believe stretched up to someone in 261 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: the neighborhood of fourteen hearings UM and it became a 262 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: total media circus because you know, the public wanted to 263 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: get a look at them because they this like, you know, 264 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: horribly offensive title. Now with the that was, you know, 265 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: took the public's imagination by storm, the funny ladies, So 266 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: it became this total ship show of a trial, right, 267 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: and the the details of the law under which they 268 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: would have been prosecuted, perhaps persecuted is a better word 269 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: here required the court to have a witness, someone who 270 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: could say, I know and I saw this thing happening 271 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: with these two people that I can conclusively identify. The 272 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: problem was that despite the terrible media atmosphere of the 273 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: time and the national attention focused on it, the prosecution 274 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: was unable to find the witness. They were unable to 275 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: prove that anything happened. That's right, But you know, one 276 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: of the most galling pieces of evidence to the prosecution 277 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: has been it was the fact that Stella, while attending 278 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: this performance at the Strand Theater, had apparently had the 279 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: audacity to use the women's laboratory. That was one of 280 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: the huge things they were I think they were already 281 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: planning to arrest them, yes that night, absolutely, but yeah, 282 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: that was that was one of the things that the 283 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: broadsheets the newspapers of the time really latched onto. That's right, 284 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: the penny papers. And here is a pretty um interesting 285 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: and telling quote from the way this was all kind 286 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: of portrayed to the public. There is one peculiar trait 287 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: in the evidence that stands out in bold and audacious relief, 288 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: and two plainly shows the base and prurient nature which 289 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: these misguided youths, for they are but little more, must possess. 290 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: We refer to the entrance of Park into the retiring room, 291 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: which is set apart for ladies at the Strand Theater, 292 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: who had the unblushing impudence to apply to the female 293 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: attendant to fasten up the gathers of his skirt, which 294 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: he alleged had come unfastened. And the character we had mentioned, 295 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: the husband of Stella, also returns to this story in 296 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: a tragic way. He is implicated. Yeah, but he is 297 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: unable to testify because he had passed away, officially on 298 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: paper from scarlet fever. But many um whispers implying that 299 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: he he had taken his own life. Yeah, that was 300 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: on June, literally the day after he received his subpoena 301 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: for the trial. So circumstances strongly point to him taking 302 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: his own life. And then at the time there was speculation, however, 303 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: that before he had done this, either died of scarlet 304 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: fever or committed suicide for the the blow his reputation 305 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: would take. Right from being implicated in this, there's pretty 306 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: solid speculation that he had used those existing connection to 307 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: fake his death. Pretty interesting stuff, Ben, and not to 308 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: muddy the waters here, we'll get back to the conclusion 309 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: of um Fannie and Stella's story, But there's another bit 310 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: of implication that after he supposedly either died or disappeared, 311 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: another woman woman identifying as male in dress, impersonated him 312 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: and he used his name to defraud other wealthy individuals 313 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: of of money. Yeah, Mary Jane Fair, No, that's that's 314 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: her given name, and she was claiming to be Lord 315 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: Arthur Clinton and to double muddy this or to muddy 316 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: it further while while pretending to be Lord Arthur Clinton, 317 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: Mary would also sometimes dress as a woman, so dressing 318 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: as Clinton, dressing as a woman, arguing that it was 319 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: to throw people off the trail. Complicated, Yeah, but so, 320 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: but you know, we kind of already spilled the beans 321 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: that there's a happy ending to this story and that 322 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: they were acquitted or or that the jury did not convict. Yes, 323 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: they were finally acquitted. And the problem here is that, 324 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we could talk about how how they were acquitted. 325 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: So the prosecution was not able to prove that there 326 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: was any offense committed under the laws of the time. 327 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: And they also, despite the personation of a woman misdemeanor charge, 328 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: they weren't able to get that to stick either. After 329 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: the Lord Chief Justice presiding, a guy named Sir Alexander Cockburn, 330 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: summed up the prosecution's case. He said that the prosecution's 331 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: case was garbage juice and that the police were acting unprofessionally. 332 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: And then the jury took about fifty three minutes to 333 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: deliberate they found both individuals not guilty. So imagine the 334 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: emotional roller coaster, right, And it's pretty cool because one 335 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: account that I read UM says that when that non 336 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: guilty verdict was rendered, everyone in the gallery UM exclaimed 337 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: with shouts of bravo. So you know, they were well 338 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: liked in the community and they were known, and it 339 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: seems as though at least the people in the courtroom 340 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: they were there to support them. Um, We're kind of 341 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: in their corner. Yeah, yeah, and this this leads us 342 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: to a larger social context here too. One thing I 343 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: really appreciated about Katherine Hughes's article was noting the great 344 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: changes in society that we're occurring at the time. Right 345 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy, the Republican movement was reaching a tipping point, 346 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: the work of Charles Arles Darwin was propagating out through 347 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: the world. Paris had quote become a commune, and there 348 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: was this cultural ecosystem in which this trial occurred. This 349 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: finding you had later consequences on the world of English law, 350 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to gender identity. That's right, It's 351 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: something we haven't mentioned. But um, at this point they 352 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: did not make distinctions of of gay people. It was 353 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 1: more distinctions of acts. So no one would have referred 354 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: to Fanny and Stella as gay. No, that didn't come 355 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: until much later, several decades later, in fact, with a 356 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: case involving someone I believe you you know well been 357 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: um Oscar Wilde. Yeah, I am Oscar Wilde about him, 358 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: but we have never met. I am a big fan. Yes, 359 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: legendary writer, poet, author of the Picture of Dorry and Ray. 360 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: Oscar Wilde was born in eighteen fifty four. He was 361 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: alive while these things were happening, not that much not 362 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: that much younger than Fanny and Stella. So he was 363 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: also eventually uh sent to trial because his sexual identity 364 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: became a problem for the government of the day. Yeah, 365 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: and that's the thing. Then we're talking about some of 366 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: these um changes that maybe we're happening in the public consciousness. 367 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: But as we know, the gears of justice and the 368 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: legal system grind pretty slowly so that they certainly were 369 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: not caught up to any of these kind of like awakenings. Yeah, 370 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: it's we see a similar thing with cultural change and 371 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: technological change. The world of legislation takes a while to 372 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: catch up even at the best of times. Oscar, much 373 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: like Stella, is dressed and what would be considered feminine 374 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: attire for much of his early life because his mother 375 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: had expected and wished for a girl. Ben, how would 376 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: you describe the way he dressed later in life when 377 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: he was a much more known figure. He certainly didn't dress. 378 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: He dressed in men's clothing, but not the typical kind 379 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: of men's clothes that the gentry would wear. He had 380 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: expensive taste you know what I mean. He was going 381 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: for sophisticated fabrics, have very particular concerns about dress. He 382 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: liked what we would call the good life, you know, 383 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: And unfortunately he had to end up in court attempting 384 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: to defend his own sexual identity. The the first case, 385 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 1: actually the first trial, occurs when he sues someone for libel. Right, 386 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: that's right. He sued a gentleman whose name escaves me 387 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: at the moment, who actually left his personal calling card 388 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: for Wild. So I guess I'm imagining a front desk 389 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: situation at a gentleman's club called the Albmeire, and on 390 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: it um he accused him of being a quote sodomite. Right, 391 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: and Wild received some mixed advice or conflicting advice from 392 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: his friends and then from some other people, and they 393 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: some people said, a lot of them said just let 394 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: it go, don't worry about that guy. And then Uh, 395 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: he decided that he would initiate a private prosecution for 396 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: libel since the note amounted to a public accusation that 397 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: Wild he committed what was considered a crime. So this guy, uh, 398 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: the Marquis Queensberry is arrested and the charge of criminal 399 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: libel at the time carries a potential two years in prison. 400 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Under the Libel Act of eighteen 401 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: forty three, Queensberry could have avoided this prison sentence if 402 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: he demonstrated that what he said was true. That's right. 403 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: Wild kind of put himself in the cross, is there, 404 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: didn't He He did, and against again against the advice 405 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: of his friends. And it also exposed his private life 406 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: to the public and people started to learn details about 407 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: the people that he associated with, right, the people that 408 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: he had romantic relationships with, a team of private detectives 409 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: started diving into what would you call like the Victorian underground, Yeah, exactly, 410 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: which was which was absolutely And by the way, at 411 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: this point we're in early Edwardian times. Yeah that's true. 412 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: That's true. And the press and the public is in 413 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: the state of almost rapid hysteria by the time the 414 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: trial opens in April, and the problem was Wild started 415 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: to know this wasn't going to go his way, so 416 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: he dropped the prosecution. Queensberry was found not guilty and 417 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: the court said that the accusation was true in substance 418 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: and in fact. And this this ruling also left Wild 419 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: on the financial hook for the legal cost of the 420 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: person who had insulted him, and then and made him 421 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: go bankrupt, and and and we we should say that 422 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: the reason the Marquess of Queensbury had such a problem 423 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: with Wild is because he purportedly Wild had had a 424 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: relationship with his son, Lord Alfred. But it wasn't this 425 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: trial that that did Wild in the way that we 426 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: know he ultimately got done, right, Yeah, exactly. There was 427 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: a another trial that occurred so after after Fanny and 428 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: Stella's famous trial, fast forward a few years and we 429 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: arrive at something called the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 430 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty five that said any sort of same sex 431 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: act of any type was against the law. And Wild 432 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: after he had left this, you know, he had left 433 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: this other trial, right, this libel trial dropped the prosecution. 434 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: There was a warrant for his arrest put out on 435 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: the charges of sodomy and gross indecency, and people gave 436 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: him conflicting advice. Again. Some people said, go to Dover 437 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: and hop on a boat for France as soon as 438 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: you canuriously. And then his mom said, no, stay and 439 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: fight this. And Wild was arrested on April six, and 440 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: then he the events moved quickly. He was convicted along 441 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: with Alfred Taylor on and sentenced to two years hard labor. 442 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: But what is what is that? Yeah, it's weird. You 443 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: would think it would be something functional like what we 444 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: think of today where they have inmates like stuff. But 445 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: in those days, it was like these bizarre menial tasks 446 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: of like unraveling rope for hours and hours at a time. 447 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: Things like that, just like psychological torture. Really strange, and 448 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: he was incarcerated from May to eighteen nine seven or 449 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: eighteenth of May eighteen ninety seven. As soon as he 450 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: was a free man, he sailed immediately for France. He 451 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: never returned to the UK, and they lost one of 452 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: the greatest literary minds of that generation. And I just 453 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: want to mention that unraveling or apparently is kind of 454 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: functional because it's old rope and you on ravel it 455 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: so that you can recycle it, I guess to make rope. 456 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: And they would also make like coking compound, you know, 457 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: for like construction. Okay, so it's when I first read it, 458 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: I thought it was just some sort of bizarre, tedious 459 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: task to make them go insane. So it's not like 460 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: the thing that you hear about in the military, where 461 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: someone makes you dig a hole and then fill it 462 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: back in and dig it again. Yeah, Or listen to 463 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: like Black Sabbath with headphones on at like insane volume. 464 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: I thought you were about to say it. Or listen 465 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: to podcasts. Yeah, that can be tough to um, but 466 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: hopefully this one wasn't tough. And I know we went 467 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: a little farther into the Oscar wild thing. It wasn't 468 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: really the main topic of this episode, but it's a 469 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: really important full circle. And he did, in fact end 470 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: up getting incarcerated. And when he was incarcerated, he has 471 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: this amazing quote that I think is so prescient. It's 472 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: really really important. Um, the idea of the love dare 473 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: not speak its name. And I think we should maybe 474 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: end and end on this, and he refers to this 475 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: as being in this century misunderstood, so much misunderstood that 476 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: it may be described as the love that dare not 477 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: speak its name. And on account of that, I'm placed 478 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: where I am now. It is beautiful, it is fine. 479 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: It is the noblest form of affection. There is nothing 480 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: unnatural about it. It is intellectual, and it repeatedly exists 481 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: between an elder and a younger man, when the elder 482 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: man has intellect and the younger man has all the joy, hope, 483 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: and glamor of life before him. That it should be 484 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: so the world does not understand, the world mocks at 485 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: it and sometimes puts one in the pillory for it. 486 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: And what he's doing is basically just describing any kind 487 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,719 Speaker 1: of sames. I mean, he's talking about this intellectual bond 488 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: between an older and a younger man, but I think 489 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: what he's really describing as any kind of same sex 490 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: attraction or affection. Yes, well said, Well said Noel and 491 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: Oscar Wilde. Uh, this guy's work is just rife with 492 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: these amazing quotes. You know. One of my favorites was 493 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: always be yourself everyone else has already taken. It's pretty good. 494 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: That's pretty good. Hey, and that really applies to h 495 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: Fannie and Stella. Yeah yeah, absolutely, Hey we got there. 496 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: We didn't. Uh. So we want to thank you all 497 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Of course, thanks to our 498 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: super producer Casey Pegram, thanks to Eve's Jeff Cote, who 499 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: helped us with the research for this episode. I thought 500 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: this one was was pretty wonderful. Um, you know, and 501 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: what happened with Oscar Wild that he he didn't die 502 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: in prison, did he? No, he did not die in prison. 503 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: Good because that would have been a bummer. I I'm 504 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: I'm laughing just because he went out like he's just 505 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: such a cool dude. Okay. So he died bedridden in 506 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: November of nineteen hundred, specifically novem and apparently the whole 507 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: time he was there he was complaining about the way 508 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: that like the room was decorated, and that's why reputedly 509 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: his very last words, the one that most people attribute 510 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: to him is this wallpaper is terrible. One of us 511 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: will have to go. And then he passed away. I 512 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: hope that's real. I hope it is too. He's got 513 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: such style, you know. And ask for Fannie and Stella. 514 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't find really anything about what happened to them 515 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: at the end of their lives because you've been no, no, 516 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: I got it got a little bit murky. But you 517 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: can understand how they would want to retire from public life. 518 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: But what a what a like? That's like the trial 519 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: of the century. So we can only hope that they 520 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: were able to find some privacy and some dignity that 521 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: the press apparently could not afford them at the times, 522 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: right and we we we had it in some more stuff, 523 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: mid thank you. Let's let's get to it right right, yes, yes. 524 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: Whereas Find us on Instagram, find us on Twitter, find 525 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: us on Facebook, hang out with us on our community page, 526 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians, where you can meet your fellow audience members. 527 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: And thanks to Alex Williams for composing our theme, and 528 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: most importantly to you for tuning in to another episode 529 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: of Ridiculous History.