WEBVTT - Simon Napier-Bell

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lessner's Podcast. My

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<v Speaker 1>guest today is the one and only Simon Napier Bell, writer, producer, manager, author,

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<v Speaker 1>jack of all trades. Simon, good to have you on

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>You missed a filmmaker for ten years. That's all I've

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<v Speaker 2>been doing. Actually I almost.

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<v Speaker 1>Put that in one I'm talking, but we'll talk about that.

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<v Speaker 1>You live in Thailand. Why do you live in Thailand?

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<v Speaker 2>It's very central, you know, I work in UK and

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<v Speaker 2>Australia and China and America. Look at the map, find

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<v Speaker 2>a central point and you'll low to be in Thailand

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<v Speaker 2>or Hong Kong or Singapore. You know, it's it's twelve

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<v Speaker 2>hours to LA but it's twelve hours to London, twelve

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<v Speaker 2>hours to Aucklands and New Zealand. And it's warm, comfortable.

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<v Speaker 2>I love being in La without without February, without without

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<v Speaker 2>Decembine over February.

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<v Speaker 1>It's okay, you have to give me a little more.

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<v Speaker 1>Was it love? Was it money?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you know my husband, my boyfriend husband is tied.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you've got to You've got a choice. When when

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<v Speaker 2>you live with somebody you have lived in their country.

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<v Speaker 2>I live in your country. I mean, that's the sensible

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<v Speaker 2>choice choice. If I sudden, Spain would be nice if

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<v Speaker 2>I'd met a Spanish guy, but I didn't. I met

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<v Speaker 2>a tiger. We lived in England for five or six years.

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<v Speaker 2>It was good, but we had we kept a place

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<v Speaker 2>in Thailand, and eventually, eventually, whenever there was any free time,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be in Thailand because it's warmer or pleasant, nicer,

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<v Speaker 2>And and then you'd have a holiday and you said

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<v Speaker 2>we'd better go to England to make sure the place

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<v Speaker 2>is okay. And you think that's not no longer to

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<v Speaker 2>start a place as the liability, you know, So we

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<v Speaker 2>got rid of that, and I would say, I'm here

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<v Speaker 2>three months a year. I mean, I just got back

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<v Speaker 2>yesterday from Indonesia. Five days week after next to be

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<v Speaker 2>back in London making films. I'm traveling the whole time, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you're entirely in three months a year, are

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<v Speaker 1>you anywhere else for that amount of time?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe the UK wouldn't come to that, but it would

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<v Speaker 2>be the next most I do. All of I make

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<v Speaker 2>films that I'm mainly in the UK. But then nowadays

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<v Speaker 2>the filming is literally only the filming I mean you

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<v Speaker 2>go to the UK, you got to interview people. You

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<v Speaker 2>may talk to the editor. You don't even need to

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<v Speaker 2>do that there. It is just when you're interviewing people

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<v Speaker 2>on the film. So the UK is probably kept down

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<v Speaker 2>to six weeks. Even have I making two films a

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<v Speaker 2>year America very little. I come often, but not for

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<v Speaker 2>a long time. I have a show running in Las

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<v Speaker 2>Vegas who's been going for ten years, Raging the Rockcord.

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<v Speaker 2>So I look in to make sure it's going. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Well I know it's going okay. I don't look into

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<v Speaker 2>make sure it's going. I looking because I like looking

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<v Speaker 2>in and to remind them I exist. Forget it, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm part of it. And China, well that was a

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<v Speaker 2>lot before COVID. It faded away. It's just beginning to

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<v Speaker 2>come back again now.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, if you dropped. I mean, Americans are really ethnocentric.

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<v Speaker 1>You draft the average American or English speaking person in Thailand,

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<v Speaker 1>whether they feel it's comfortable or whether they say, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>this is completely different.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. You see a lot of these things on

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<v Speaker 2>TikTok and people say, oh god, this is so amazing

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<v Speaker 2>and different. You've never been to a place like this,

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<v Speaker 2>and other people say, it just feels comfortable. This is

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<v Speaker 2>where your background is. America is very easy to generalize

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<v Speaker 2>about Americans, and I often do, which is unfair. Now

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<v Speaker 2>go for it, But you're so completely culturally different, you know. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the first time I ever went to America, I was

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<v Speaker 2>I was eighteen, nineteen twenty out. We press a position

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<v Speaker 2>and I get a up and hitchhiked around America. And

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<v Speaker 2>I was brought up in an upper meddy class English family,

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<v Speaker 2>but my father had been a member of the Communist Party.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the diverse peculiarity you get in the upper

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<v Speaker 2>middle class in British. He went to Oxford University and

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<v Speaker 2>joined the Communist Party. He wanted to fight for the underdog.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was brought up to the upper middle class,

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<v Speaker 2>left wing, very left wing, atheist, very much part of

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<v Speaker 2>my culture. Not to believe I was color prejudice. I

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<v Speaker 2>preferred duck skinned people. I preferred anybody who could possibly

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<v Speaker 2>be prejudiced against. You know, they would immediately go up

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<v Speaker 2>in my estimation. I'd feel safe, for more comfortable with

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<v Speaker 2>people who were not white, middle class. They were people

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<v Speaker 2>I was uncomfortable with. And I went to America and

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<v Speaker 2>I was I'd been pre trained to not like Republican Christians.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the essence of what was wrong with America.

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<v Speaker 2>And I hit track around America, and everywhere I went,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd find really kind, nice, generous, humorous, well educated people

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<v Speaker 2>who would invite me home for the weekend and say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>why you hitchhiking? Come home, spent a couple of days

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<v Speaker 2>of the family. And there were always white Republican Christians,

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<v Speaker 2>the nicest you can be. And I hated that because

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<v Speaker 2>it maybe have to think new things too complicated.

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<v Speaker 1>Since we're going that far and you live halfway around

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<v Speaker 1>the world, what is the assessment of the political condition

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States from afar?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the one thing many Americans, I think most Americans

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<v Speaker 2>don't understand you do because you're hugely cosmopolitan, you're traveling,

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<v Speaker 2>you talk with people, is America's president. As the world's president,

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<v Speaker 2>we're all in your hands. And it is absolutely no

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<v Speaker 2>good thinking in an isolated way that other people don't

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<v Speaker 2>care about your president. And you know, it's a stugget

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<v Speaker 2>staggering to us that fifty percent of America doesn't understand

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<v Speaker 2>that the entire world doesn't just like Trump. They just

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<v Speaker 2>think it's incredible. A man who should probably be in

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<v Speaker 2>an old people's home, probably is a criminal, may not be,

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<v Speaker 2>that's probably mentally disadvantage in his entire life. That don't

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<v Speaker 2>mean recently it could be president and then having men

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<v Speaker 2>PRIs that you'd wanted president again, it's it doesn't it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't bode well for America in general or for

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<v Speaker 2>the world in general. And Americans failed to understand that

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<v Speaker 2>you you it's not your matter in taking a leadership

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<v Speaker 2>you you are in a leadership position, whether you want

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<v Speaker 2>it or not. So it's very difficult for the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of the world to respect America when when fifty percent

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<v Speaker 2>may vor for Trump, hopefully not three weeks, we will

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<v Speaker 2>go back to respecting them because you'll come to your senses.

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<v Speaker 1>Just because we're this far. What's your assessment of the

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<v Speaker 1>UK Brexit labor Tories.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, brexits most of pouring stupid thing which ever happened,

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<v Speaker 2>but they again a great look. Where did I see this?

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<v Speaker 2>A man phoned up a talk show and he was

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<v Speaker 2>planning that the talk show host had aligned British by

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<v Speaker 2>saying half the people in England behalf below average intelligence. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>half the people in Britain do have a low average intelligence,

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<v Speaker 2>as they do everywhere else in the world, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>always a pity when they can be swayed and rerex

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<v Speaker 2>It was just an insane thing to do, utterly, totally insane,

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<v Speaker 2>and pretty even the people who voted for it now

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<v Speaker 2>pretty well know it was and slowly, slowly will edge

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<v Speaker 2>back into being part of Europe.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about this show in Vegas.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a great idea. I had it typical of

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<v Speaker 2>my NonStop travel. I was sitting in the Purple Haze

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<v Speaker 2>Rock club in Bangalore about one in the morning, the

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<v Speaker 2>end of a very nice bottle of champagne. IM sitting alone,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've been listening to the DJ players endless stream

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<v Speaker 2>of records and by you mustn't counter culturists. Sometimes in

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<v Speaker 2>life you sit there amazingly every time one of your

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<v Speaker 2>favorite rock records finishes exactly the one you would have

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<v Speaker 2>chosen to put the covers off, and you think, God,

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<v Speaker 2>this DJ, he's wired. We're in a word to each other.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got to go and thank him. So I got

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<v Speaker 2>up to go for a pe. As I got up

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<v Speaker 2>to go to be I looked across to the DJ,

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<v Speaker 2>who I was going to go across and thank him

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<v Speaker 2>for having such exquisite taste, and it was a covers band.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I was a bit pissed. I'm sure, Champagne, but

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<v Speaker 2>you are meant to know the difference between covers and records,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if you've been in the business or in your life.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I got back and sat down, I pondered

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<v Speaker 2>on this. It was one of those incredibly clever Filipino bands.

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<v Speaker 2>You can play hugely loud feedback at just incredibly quiet levels,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know that they know they know how to

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<v Speaker 2>do all these things. And I sat down and I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>do you know what's missing in the world is great?

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<v Speaker 2>It's two hours of all your favorite rock played by

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<v Speaker 2>the greatest rock positions in the world. It's just never

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<v Speaker 2>been done. There are tribute bands, but they're not the

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<v Speaker 2>greatest rock positions. And so I got this idea. We

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<v Speaker 2>would have a show where every one of the greatest

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<v Speaker 2>rock positions who are not that minute on tour would

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<v Speaker 2>their band would form a band. And we have fifty

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<v Speaker 2>musicians and they are all top positions from top groups,

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<v Speaker 2>and tenor and leven are in the band at any

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<v Speaker 2>one time. You know, if we had Doug old Ritch

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<v Speaker 2>are a long time White State would go on tour.

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<v Speaker 2>So Doug would have to go on tour, and Tracy

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<v Speaker 2>Gunns would come in and traveling McDonald on base and

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<v Speaker 2>Jovia go on tour, and so we have this absolutely incredible,

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<v Speaker 2>top notch rock group playing everybody's favorite rocksms, including theirs.

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<v Speaker 2>Because this was the interesting thing to begin with, I

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<v Speaker 2>thought they won't want to do this, and then they

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<v Speaker 2>took Tracy guns who took me aside one and said,

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<v Speaker 2>I've You've given me a chance to play all the

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<v Speaker 2>songs I ever wanted to play. He said, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>a La Guns or White Snake, you can't go play

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<v Speaker 2>any Rolling Stone songs. You know you don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>let you. But my favorite songs too, like there everybody

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<v Speaker 2>else's and now we can play them. And so it's

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<v Speaker 2>amazing two hours every night of everybody's favorite music played

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<v Speaker 2>as well as it can be possibly played. And we

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<v Speaker 2>often have visiting rock stars. You're come in and listen them,

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<v Speaker 2>they're amazed.

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<v Speaker 1>But where does this play.

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<v Speaker 2>At the moment? Is that the hard Rock Cafe. It's

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<v Speaker 2>been at four different venues. We opened originally in what

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<v Speaker 2>was the less Long Hill, you know where Elvison everybody

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<v Speaker 2>had played, and then we moved to the Tropicana and

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<v Speaker 2>then the hard Rock Hotel and that closed and somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>else or on our fifth venue ten years, ten years continuously.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, so what are the economics? How many shows

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<v Speaker 1>a week?

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<v Speaker 2>We're doing four shows a week. We started. We were

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<v Speaker 2>very we started, and we were Harry Carl, my partner,

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<v Speaker 2>and a couple of no old British managers. People gave

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<v Speaker 2>us lots of advice and we didn't take it, which

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<v Speaker 2>is good. That's what you have to do that you

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to take too much advice. Mistakes are lovely.

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<v Speaker 2>But everybody said, you know, you need a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>million in the reserved or the show in Vegas. You

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<v Speaker 2>can't sell any tickets the first six months, and we said,

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<v Speaker 2>yeah we will, We've got this amazing show over the company.

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<v Speaker 2>What we had is, you can't because everybody books their

0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.360
<v Speaker 2>holiday in Vegas six months ahead, and they booked the

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<v Speaker 2>tickets for the shows they're going to see. So when

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<v Speaker 2>they get to Vegas, even if they want to see

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<v Speaker 2>your show, they're already booked up with other tickets. So

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<v Speaker 2>your first six months are horrific. You've got to fill

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<v Speaker 2>the show because if you don't fill it, everybody knows

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<v Speaker 2>it's a failure. And to fill it you have to pay.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not like giving away ten seats a night. You're

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<v Speaker 2>giving away eight hundred seats a night and you want

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<v Speaker 2>people to fill them. So you end up paying a

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<v Speaker 2>corporation companies who do this, This is how they make

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<v Speaker 2>their money. They'll fill your seats for you, and so

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<v Speaker 2>you pay for those seats to be filled. So for

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of six months, we had a good

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<v Speaker 2>big debt, a couple of million dollars debt, the amount

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<v Speaker 2>of money we were told we should have had to

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<v Speaker 2>start with. But bit by bit by bit, it's been

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<v Speaker 2>ten years now it's come round to being a very

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<v Speaker 2>very successful shodow and the debts got paid off and

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<v Speaker 2>it's making money and it's full every night.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So if what is the deal with the hotel?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, the deal with the hotel printing as much we have,

0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.480
<v Speaker 2>we get, we get the space, and we have to

0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.440
<v Speaker 2>make the show profitable. That's everywhere in Vegas. Hotels are

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 2>not they're not entrepreneurs, they're not promoters. They give you

0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.120
<v Speaker 2>the space you've got to run your show and make

0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:43.839
<v Speaker 2>it profitable.

0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so let's assume it is profitable. They get a cut.

0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 2>This is how you cut the deal. Normally they get

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 2>a cup, but not always. Some of them are really

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.800
<v Speaker 2>happy just to have the bar continually full. You know

0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.840
<v Speaker 2>that the bar from a rock show is good money.

0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.559
<v Speaker 2>And at the Tropicana, for instance, I mean they'd never sold,

0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.400
<v Speaker 2>they'd never sold made so much from the bar as

0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:07.480
<v Speaker 2>they did with our show, and then they change it

0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.280
<v Speaker 2>for like a strip show, a girly show that was

0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.719
<v Speaker 2>full every night too, but nobody went and rank. You know,

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.760
<v Speaker 2>rock fans strength lot. So everybody makes different deals for

0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.520
<v Speaker 2>different reasons. But basically, you are going to have to

0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:21.280
<v Speaker 2>find your own way of making a profit out of

0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:22.679
<v Speaker 2>the show from the room they give you.

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so all the ticket revenue goes to the producer

0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:29.880
<v Speaker 1>of the show.

0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>That's never the case anywhere with anything. That are people

0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:34.400
<v Speaker 2>who sell tickets.

0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Well that's why I'm asking. I know some stuff about Vegas,

0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.040
<v Speaker 1>but I'm talking to somebody else. I'll let you tell

0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:40.800
<v Speaker 1>the story.

0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know the current dealing. Follow my partner

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.800
<v Speaker 2>made the deal and he would know. But if you

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:48.360
<v Speaker 2>when you say all that to get money, if you

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.280
<v Speaker 2>mean what you get after the ticket agency has taken

0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 2>their percentages. Yeah, yeah, pretty well, yeah, pretty well?

0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So would you open another show in Vegas? Are

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:01.760
<v Speaker 1>one and done?

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.400
<v Speaker 2>We had Raiding a Rock Vault was followed by Rating

0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.600
<v Speaker 2>a Country Book, which we did in Branson, Missouri. Again

0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.520
<v Speaker 2>it was very successful. But Harry, my partner, runs it.

0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. We had the concept together, we put

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.360
<v Speaker 2>it on together, and then he was abow decided to

0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 2>live there and run it. He found going to Branson

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 2>back to Vegas every week, just you know. He did

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>it for two years. It was just killing and so

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>we stopped that show and we probably will reopen it

0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 2>in Vegas at some stage. But Vegas isn't good on

0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.760
<v Speaker 2>studying country music, and we are going to Raiding the

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Latin Vault, which we've had a great demand for. So

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.880
<v Speaker 2>we may do two shows in the same venue, alternating nights.

0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 2>So we may have two different venues doing two different shows.

0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.600
<v Speaker 1>So if you're doing four shows a night, what's in

0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:48.720
<v Speaker 1>the theater the other night?

0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Four shows? Four shows a week? Do you know? It varies?

0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes sometimes there's nothing, Sometimes there just incoming one night shows.

0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 2>There have been nights I noticed I've noticed groups coming

0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 2>in and playing one night. It's a hard rock cafe,

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 2>so they they've got groups coming in, but it's not

0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 2>a constant. They'll be changing what's on each night.

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, where is your residence for taxes? And what are

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the tax implications being a citizen of the world.

0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:28.680
<v Speaker 2>You mean for me, not that show that shows that

0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:34.560
<v Speaker 2>number that shows an American show. For me a complex.

0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm a non resident brit which means that I have

0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.240
<v Speaker 2>If I earn money in Britain, I have to pay

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.960
<v Speaker 2>tax on it. But I've earned money outside of Britain,

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't have to pay tax, unlike Americans who have

0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.440
<v Speaker 2>to pay American tax of money they earned in any country.

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.320
<v Speaker 2>So if I earn money here in Asia, or if

0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.120
<v Speaker 2>I earn money anyway which is paid to me through

0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 2>an Asian company or even direct to me, I'm not

0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.000
<v Speaker 2>liable for UK tax on that. But a lot of

0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.160
<v Speaker 2>money I owned the UK because I have a corporation

0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.720
<v Speaker 2>in the UK. That's really the biggest source of income.

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I didn't when I first moved here. I thought I

0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.440
<v Speaker 2>have a corporation here and keep on my income out

0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 2>of the UK, but it's difficult. People want to work

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.960
<v Speaker 2>with the UK company. It's comfortable. Bank transfers go through easily,

0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.880
<v Speaker 2>and so in many ways, I don't really have much

0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.320
<v Speaker 2>tax money from being here. I'm pretty much paying UK tax,

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 2>but it's my choice. And if I do want to

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:29.400
<v Speaker 2>make independent financial deals here with myself as a consultant,

0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:31.680
<v Speaker 2>when I work as a consultant, which I do quite often,

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I get that paid directly to Thailand and then I

0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.280
<v Speaker 2>don't have to pay tax in the UK. If I

0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 2>bring too much into Thailand, I would then have to

0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 2>pay tax on that. But I have the advantage that

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm old, and therefore Thailand sees me. It gives me.

0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.040
<v Speaker 2>I live here on a retirement visa, not at work visa,

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and they want retired people to bring money in, so

0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.840
<v Speaker 2>they don't question much what money I'm bringing. I'm retired,

0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 2>That's what they like. Old rich retired people bring in money.

0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.920
<v Speaker 1>But there is tax to the country of Thailand.

0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.439
<v Speaker 2>There is if I do the work in Thailand, but

0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm not doing any right. I've stayed really clear of

0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.440
<v Speaker 2>working in Thailand because that does bring up another thing.

0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Then I'm going to be subject to their tax and

0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's not I'm trying to avoid tax so much.

0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:23.560
<v Speaker 2>It's just another complication, another set of falls, another to

0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:24.959
<v Speaker 2>muddle up your life, you know.

0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, As a result of streaming, it is much more

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.640
<v Speaker 1>a worldwide business than ever before. And it's not dominated

0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm talking about music here, not dominated by American acts.

0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about movies. For a long time, big business

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.240
<v Speaker 1>for Hollywood was export in China. Now it's more domestic

0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 1>pictures in the rest of the world. Asia is your

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.879
<v Speaker 1>area of focus. What do Americans in the rest of

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.359
<v Speaker 1>the world not understand about what's going on in the

0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:01.840
<v Speaker 1>entertainment business.

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Americans understand less than Europeans, that's for sure. Though in China.

0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:11.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you talk to people in the film

0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.400
<v Speaker 2>industry in America about China, of course they understand because

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>they got so close, they got so involved for a while.

0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.359
<v Speaker 2>They know to make a movie of success in China,

0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.359
<v Speaker 2>they have to have they have to bring in a

0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Chinese co producer or associate producer to consult with to

0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 2>get the thing right. They've did that a lot. Two

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 2>or three years ago, they were doing it in every movie.

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Now there's rather started to say let's forget Chinese market

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.040
<v Speaker 2>for the moment, but you can't. It's vast. I mean,

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.440
<v Speaker 2>the Chinese market alone will pay for your film. And

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:47.000
<v Speaker 2>it's more looking the other way around. Can we fathom

0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.960
<v Speaker 2>what the Chinese really want from the American market? And

0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, if the economies are so huge and so

0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.160
<v Speaker 2>hopelessly interweld, it's ridiculous to think of Chinese as an enemy.

0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:02.640
<v Speaker 2>I know, it's the American way. You know, you're either

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.080
<v Speaker 2>you're other part of us, or we're fighting with you.

0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.720
<v Speaker 2>But and there's it's always extraordinary in that you read

0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.520
<v Speaker 2>about the animosity between two countries, and you know the

0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.480
<v Speaker 2>violent disagreement about this and that, And also you're going

0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.920
<v Speaker 2>to find there are committees and people working between the

0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.480
<v Speaker 2>two countries very amicably and sensibly at exactly the same time.

0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 2>And there's no doubt at all in my mind, I

0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.760
<v Speaker 2>don't have any fear at all. And there's been some

0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.800
<v Speaker 2>ultimate American Chinese conflict. You're intertwined enough with each other

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.720
<v Speaker 2>in all in every aspect of all industries, manufacturing industries,

0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.919
<v Speaker 2>but essentially more important anything in the entertainment industry, that

0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.159
<v Speaker 2>you have to stay involved. And if you're intertwined in

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the entertainment industry. You have a cross culturalization going on

0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the whole time. You understand each other better and better.

0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.359
<v Speaker 2>And I would say, you know, I still go to

0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.560
<v Speaker 2>China quite a lot, and it's increasing. Again. The problems

0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:05.280
<v Speaker 2>are over Chinese young people, even though they're pretty well

0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 2>prevented from accessing Google and all the American ways of

0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.400
<v Speaker 2>finding out what's going on, they're very offa with what's

0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.680
<v Speaker 2>going on in America. They understand American culture very much

0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 2>better than American kids understand Asian culture.

0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:26.359
<v Speaker 1>This may be a little bit off your radar, but

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:32.000
<v Speaker 1>there's a burgeoning electric car business in China. They recently

0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.240
<v Speaker 1>went into in Indonesia and own the market. You know,

0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:40.240
<v Speaker 1>there's taxes now in Europe and in the US trying

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.199
<v Speaker 1>to keep these people out. Once you leave China, to

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.720
<v Speaker 1>what degree do you feel the presence of China, whether

0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.040
<v Speaker 1>it be ownership, business or whatever.

0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:55.399
<v Speaker 3>The company is doing the only way the ordinary person

0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:59.720
<v Speaker 3>feels it is the majority of cars on the road

0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 3>in Southeast Asia, and not the majority.

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 2>A large number, but it's gone from a very small

0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:07.960
<v Speaker 2>number to a very large number. I think it probably

0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.399
<v Speaker 2>be only a year before the majority are Chinese built

0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 2>and the same in Europe. It doesn't shock us because

0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.199
<v Speaker 2>we remember when all the cars and iron became I'm

0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:19.920
<v Speaker 2>very old, when all the cars in the road and

0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>ignorant were British, and then the Japanese cars started coming in.

0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.280
<v Speaker 2>So now we're just being shocked. To my god, you know,

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.640
<v Speaker 2>the Chinese. Who ever thought they'd build a car, there's

0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.720
<v Speaker 2>just a set of Japanese. You have Chinese, and we're

0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:37.040
<v Speaker 2>permanently frightened. Told we ought to be frightened because they

0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.920
<v Speaker 2>could suddenly turn off every car or you know, they

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.040
<v Speaker 2>have a switch where they could make all the cars

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:47.719
<v Speaker 2>drive off cliffs or die or whatever. But that's science

0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:51.359
<v Speaker 2>fiction and stuff, because you know that this sort of

0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:57.760
<v Speaker 2>this sort of communal every time you see people believe

0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.600
<v Speaker 2>that a huge number of people can get together secretly

0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.240
<v Speaker 2>and do something. You know, it's about anyone who's managed

0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.280
<v Speaker 2>a group. You know, you can't get five people degree

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:07.440
<v Speaker 2>to do one thing. You don't get hundreds of people

0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.919
<v Speaker 2>around the world to do something dastardly deed, all at

0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:14.639
<v Speaker 2>once in total secret. So I doubt very much that

0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.760
<v Speaker 2>we have much to fear from Chinese cars other than

0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.080
<v Speaker 2>competition to the current industry, that's for sure.

0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, to people starting out who want to be managers

0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:29.560
<v Speaker 1>in the music business, what would your advice.

0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.959
<v Speaker 2>Be, Well, don't go to a school and learn how

0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.520
<v Speaker 2>to be a manager. I give talks a lot at universities,

0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.000
<v Speaker 2>and one of the first questions I asked is, you

0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 2>know how many people here will actually want to go

0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.320
<v Speaker 2>in the music industry, because half the people in the

0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>lecture will be taking it, of course, as a second course,

0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:46.800
<v Speaker 2>because they're actually going to be doctors or something had

0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:48.719
<v Speaker 2>about you know, twenty thirty people have put their hand

0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:50.399
<v Speaker 2>that would say how many want to be managers? And

0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.880
<v Speaker 2>ten five ten, and I SI, you're wasting your time

0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:56.920
<v Speaker 2>sitting here. Even listening to me today is a waste

0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.200
<v Speaker 2>of time. You just get up or leave this room

0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 2>and find someone to manage. Doesn't matter who they are,

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.800
<v Speaker 2>they can be the worst, most untalented person. Ever. You

0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.520
<v Speaker 2>won't learn anything about management until you start managing somebody.

0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 2>You find out that it's a relationship between two people.

0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.440
<v Speaker 2>A great manager with a great artist might move on

0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:17.679
<v Speaker 2>to find he never manages a good artist again. And

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.479
<v Speaker 2>you manage. It's a relationship. It has to work, and

0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:22.840
<v Speaker 2>you have to learn how to do how to have

0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.320
<v Speaker 2>that relationship with somebody. There's nothing a manager has to

0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:31.520
<v Speaker 2>do in terms of the business for his artist which

0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:33.639
<v Speaker 2>somebody else couldn't do for you. If you're a manager

0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.600
<v Speaker 2>and you don't know this, you don't but that you

0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.560
<v Speaker 2>may need to consult a lawyer or a publisher, an

0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:41.960
<v Speaker 2>expert in it. But that's what managements about. Management isn't

0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.199
<v Speaker 2>about knowing it, and management is about having the relationship

0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.080
<v Speaker 2>with the artist and taking from the artists the pressure

0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.639
<v Speaker 2>of dealing with an industry. And the sooner you start

0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:54.960
<v Speaker 2>doing it, the sooner you'll learn about it. And there's

0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.920
<v Speaker 2>nothing you learn about getting on with somebody other than

0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.119
<v Speaker 2>being with that person and finding out about it. So

0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.360
<v Speaker 2>first of all, go and find someone to manage good

0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:02.800
<v Speaker 2>or bad.

0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you've managed household nme acts. Some acts stay with

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.880
<v Speaker 1>the same manager their entire career. Some acts have had

0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:16.879
<v Speaker 1>multiple managers. To what degree when you manage an act,

0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:20.240
<v Speaker 1>are you worried about the act leaving you and to

0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:24.399
<v Speaker 1>what degree are you proactive to make sure that doesn't happen.

0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, everybody's different, So there's no generalization here because managers

0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:32.520
<v Speaker 2>have as many different personalities as there are people I've

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.080
<v Speaker 2>never managed an act ever who I cared if they

0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:39.600
<v Speaker 2>left me, because managing an artist is a very, very

0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:43.439
<v Speaker 2>time consuming, emotional consuming thing. It's twenty four or seven.

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 2>It's not like any other job. I'm the person I

0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:49.120
<v Speaker 2>prefer projects. You know. The problem with management is it's

0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:53.479
<v Speaker 2>exactly that marriage. It doesn't stop. So you're never going

0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:56.320
<v Speaker 2>to get out of this until they leave you. And

0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.920
<v Speaker 2>so anytime an actor's left me for whatever I lose.

0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.320
<v Speaker 2>By them leaving me, I gain freedom. So it's never

0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:05.879
<v Speaker 2>bothered me any actors left me if thought, oh how lovely.

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Now along with lovely, there's lots of income, loss of precision,

0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:12.639
<v Speaker 2>all those things. You have to balance them. But this

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:15.240
<v Speaker 2>is me, it's not everybody else. And I do know

0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:18.120
<v Speaker 2>managers who are who go to great lengths to try

0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:22.119
<v Speaker 2>to make sure their groups can't leave them. By intertwining

0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:26.880
<v Speaker 2>their earnings together with the manager's earnings, that becomes difficult

0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:31.400
<v Speaker 2>to extract one from the other. By well, the classic

0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:33.440
<v Speaker 2>rock and roll one was to get hooked on drugs,

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 2>which you supply. That's a very tall true one. Nowadays,

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:40.240
<v Speaker 2>it'd be more like to be a business involvement. Each

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:43.280
<v Speaker 2>person's different. I just feel that if a group wants

0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:44.840
<v Speaker 2>to leave you, then you're not going to be able

0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:47.040
<v Speaker 2>to manage them. You know that the management contract can't

0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:50.280
<v Speaker 2>be held in law. I mean it's a personal services agreement.

0:25:50.359 --> 0:25:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Any personal services agreement can be broken. If you can

0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.159
<v Speaker 2>just establish their relationships, you can super damages. But if

0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.840
<v Speaker 2>you can establish the relationship is broken, you can walk

0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:01.760
<v Speaker 2>out out of a manager contract. Private side can walk

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.480
<v Speaker 2>out of the other and then just super adapt for

0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:08.040
<v Speaker 2>damages the money which would have been earned that keep

0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:10.200
<v Speaker 2>the thing going. If you want to keep it going,

0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:13.760
<v Speaker 2>just make sure you keep it going. You know. Managers

0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:17.359
<v Speaker 2>start usually is almost saying the fingali sort of way

0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:19.640
<v Speaker 2>the artist comes to them and worship, saying, oh God,

0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:21.320
<v Speaker 2>this guy's wonderful. He's going to help you with this

0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:23.320
<v Speaker 2>and that, and he knows so much, and he's introducing

0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:25.960
<v Speaker 2>me to people, and he's getting me doers. He's making money.

0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:28.000
<v Speaker 2>But in the end of two or three years, the

0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:29.720
<v Speaker 2>manager will be a little more of the tea boy.

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:32.520
<v Speaker 2>He may present to himself as something else. But as

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:34.639
<v Speaker 2>the artist grows and makes money, and if he's been

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.600
<v Speaker 2>well looked after by the manager and has good income,

0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:43.320
<v Speaker 2>the familiarity grows and the lack of necessity of that

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:49.560
<v Speaker 2>manager grows. You know, the key, absolutely important thing a

0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:52.320
<v Speaker 2>manager does in their artist's life is break them. And

0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:55.080
<v Speaker 2>once the artist has broken, they can pretty well get

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:58.920
<v Speaker 2>by without managers. They can hire key people, booking agents

0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:02.960
<v Speaker 2>and accountants, business advisors of all sorts, not have to

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.000
<v Speaker 2>pay a percentage to sort of just pay the fees

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:10.280
<v Speaker 2>required by those people. I'd only enjoy management at that level.

0:27:10.280 --> 0:27:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Every time I've broken a group, and to the very top,

0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:16.679
<v Speaker 2>I become bored because the fun is the challenge to

0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:19.080
<v Speaker 2>how you take this group into the industry, make the

0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:22.600
<v Speaker 2>industry work for the group, make the group successful. When

0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:26.199
<v Speaker 2>was excellent? Example once once they're the biggest group in

0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:28.520
<v Speaker 2>the world. What are you doing, You're just you're just

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:32.640
<v Speaker 2>maintaining something. It's it's the difference between building a car

0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:36.880
<v Speaker 2>and driving a car. I like building them.

0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:42.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, some managers have contracts. Some managers don't. What's your

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:43.360
<v Speaker 1>philosophy there.

0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Well don't don't. I'll tell you why you agree. What's

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.240
<v Speaker 2>going to It's a change of email saying I'm going

0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:56.800
<v Speaker 2>to get twenty percent just that and put down seven

0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:59.680
<v Speaker 2>or eight key points that's enough. Don't have a contract.

0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:03.480
<v Speaker 2>You have a contract one day sometime with anybody you're

0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:05.040
<v Speaker 2>with the whole time. Remember you, if you're managing a

0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:06.680
<v Speaker 2>group mup before or five, you only got to have

0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:09.040
<v Speaker 2>a conflict with one of them. And this will happen

0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 2>if they go to the lawyer. We don't like Simon.

0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>He made us nasty joke yesterday. He farted when im

0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.760
<v Speaker 2>golfriend was present, some stupid little thing. Just get rid

0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:21.840
<v Speaker 2>of my I hate him. And the lawyer says, well,

0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:23.639
<v Speaker 2>you can't get rid of the marriage because he farted.

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.400
<v Speaker 2>You know you fart too. Think of something. Oh, I'll

0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:30.160
<v Speaker 2>say he was rude to my mother. That's not right.

0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Say he stole some money. Oh okay, we're saying sells

0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>some money. And so the lawyer makes up some incredible,

0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:37.359
<v Speaker 2>terrible thing, because that's the lawyer's job to get the

0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:41.320
<v Speaker 2>artist out of the management contract. And the letter comes

0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and that insenses the manager. This is a complete lie.

0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:46.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't do that. So he goes to his lawyer.

0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Within two days, during a conflict which will never be resolved,

0:28:50.200 --> 0:28:52.800
<v Speaker 2>you now hate each other, and the lawyers are very actress.

0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:54.760
<v Speaker 2>You continue to hate each other because there any money

0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:57.720
<v Speaker 2>from you. If you don't have a contract, they don't

0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:00.040
<v Speaker 2>have to do that. They just say you're fired and

0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:01.640
<v Speaker 2>they go home to bed. But next day they wake

0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:04.760
<v Speaker 2>up and think it's a bit difficult about Simon. I'll

0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:06.360
<v Speaker 2>call them up and see if I can make up.

0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:09.320
<v Speaker 2>So they call up and you say, sorry about last night.

0:29:09.520 --> 0:29:13.200
<v Speaker 2>That's okay, no contract, no conflict.

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but what about sunset clauses and collecting revenues for

0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:22.520
<v Speaker 1>your percentage on things you're involved in.

0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Get on with something else. I'm not a normal This

0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:30.800
<v Speaker 2>is very American, but it is true. Americans are far

0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:34.160
<v Speaker 2>more concerned with money than Europeans, but plenty of Europeans

0:29:34.160 --> 0:29:38.640
<v Speaker 2>are too. I love money. Who doesn't have money. It's

0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:41.040
<v Speaker 2>great to have money, but I've never done anything to

0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.240
<v Speaker 2>make money. Money is that money is a lovely bonus

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:48.520
<v Speaker 2>and doing things I enjoyed doing. And you know, if

0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>people leave you say actually going your an initial little

0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:55.640
<v Speaker 2>agreement looking email the exchange. If you leave you I'll

0:29:55.720 --> 0:29:59.040
<v Speaker 2>take ten percent of our half the commission for the

0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:02.200
<v Speaker 2>next year. Thing I've fixed and I said, don't pay you.

0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:04.560
<v Speaker 2>They don't pay you. You know when people cheat me,

0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't go to court. I just say, is somebody,

0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:09.440
<v Speaker 2>don't do it again the rest of your life. There's

0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:10.400
<v Speaker 2>other things you can do.

0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to the beginning of what you said

0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:26.560
<v Speaker 1>about management relationships. Is that something DNA? Is it something

0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 1>you can work on to what degree is that involved

0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.040
<v Speaker 1>with who to choose to manage or is it come

0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:37.640
<v Speaker 1>after that? Tell me more about establishing the relationship.

0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I think it comes after that. You know that there's

0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:45.280
<v Speaker 2>an instinctive thing because it's music to want to manage

0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:47.600
<v Speaker 2>somebody who makes music you like. You know, if you

0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:50.520
<v Speaker 2>if I go to a club and sometimes guys playing

0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:54.040
<v Speaker 2>brilliant piano like oscapedis cross up. I'll have to manage

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:56.520
<v Speaker 2>this guy. But I'm also you know, a business guan.

0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I look at it, well, you're not going to make

0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:01.840
<v Speaker 2>your money. You know, I need some teenager can hard

0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:07.200
<v Speaker 2>this thing, but looks straight and attracts girls. So see,

0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:12.640
<v Speaker 2>it isn't the immediate attraction musically. It's something more complex

0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.400
<v Speaker 2>than that. And often it's not not an immediate traction

0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:21.240
<v Speaker 2>in personality. I mean, if there's ammsia, dislike or revulsion insary,

0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:23.160
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to not going to work. But if

0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>someone is a bit cool, a bit bland, a bit uninteresting.

0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:31.120
<v Speaker 2>But the project looks good, the music looks good. It's

0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:33.120
<v Speaker 2>worth getting to know that there are very few people

0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:35.600
<v Speaker 2>who really are uninteresting. I mean, you know, if anywhere

0:31:35.640 --> 0:31:37.800
<v Speaker 2>in the world you get the taxi and talk, you're

0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:40.480
<v Speaker 2>going to find something interesting to talk about with anybody.

0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:43.160
<v Speaker 2>They're always going to have some experience you haven't had.

0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:48.080
<v Speaker 2>So it's proactive you need to learn. The other thing

0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:51.280
<v Speaker 2>is no major performing artist ever. I used to say

0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 2>ninety percent, but no, it have never come across it.

0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Every major performing artist was driven to become that by

0:31:58.120 --> 0:32:01.600
<v Speaker 2>some sort of trauma, some sort of traveler in their childhood,

0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:04.600
<v Speaker 2>some sort of angst which happened when they were young.

0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:06.920
<v Speaker 2>It might be the death of a parent or sibling,

0:32:07.040 --> 0:32:09.960
<v Speaker 2>or even a pet if they weren't given enough sympathy

0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 2>for it. Or it could be much worse. It could

0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:16.320
<v Speaker 2>be some sort of child abuse. Something drives them into themselves,

0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:19.480
<v Speaker 2>makes them lonely. They didn't get love at a point

0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:21.960
<v Speaker 2>in their need, didn't get loved to someone they needed

0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:24.240
<v Speaker 2>it from a point in their life when they needed it,

0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and they were retreating to themselves. Being creative. It sort

0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:33.400
<v Speaker 2>of helps a permanent, nagging, mental upset in them, and

0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:37.200
<v Speaker 2>they're desperate for the love of an audience, and that's

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:41.320
<v Speaker 2>that's what it's about. And there's no everybody you see

0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:43.800
<v Speaker 2>who's successful on stage. You go into their past, you

0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>look at it, and that happened. I used to say,

0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:49.000
<v Speaker 2>it's ninety percent. I've never come across the ten percent

0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:51.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm allowing. Isn't like that. It's always there once you

0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 2>look at it, and the manager is taking that on.

0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:57.959
<v Speaker 2>You know, don't think you're going to be a manager

0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:02.640
<v Speaker 2>and avoid that. That angst to upset and permanently unsettled

0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.840
<v Speaker 2>mental state the artist has is going to be given

0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:12.240
<v Speaker 2>to you to deal with, and you have to accept it,

0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.280
<v Speaker 2>enjoy having that problem. I suppose, I mean to some degree.

0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I suppose managers who are good must have some aspect

0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:22.800
<v Speaker 2>of what analysis has. There must be something in the

0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:25.960
<v Speaker 2>knownergy's background which which makes them sympathize and understand that

0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:30.040
<v Speaker 2>where it's not so acute. So perhaps even by being managers,

0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 2>we're giving ourselves some sort of therapy. Possibly I haven't

0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:37.160
<v Speaker 2>delved into that too much, but it's very likely and

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the best, the best managers. It's very interesting, you know,

0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:43.400
<v Speaker 2>you look at Roger who managed, who managed Tina Turner?

0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Roger Davis, Roger Davis man he managed three other major artists.

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Everyone has the same background. Do you think Roger Davis

0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:55.640
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have the same background? I never even looked. Every

0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.840
<v Speaker 2>one of them had divorce spirits. I'm sure Roger Davis

0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:03.120
<v Speaker 2>had difficult and at least parents who fought. You know

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:07.360
<v Speaker 2>that there must be some similarity. The pain or the

0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.120
<v Speaker 2>hurts or the room the results of the pain isn't

0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:13.279
<v Speaker 2>so acute and the manager, but I'm sure that understanding

0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:18.280
<v Speaker 2>of that emotional distress must be their managers successful managers.

0:34:19.520 --> 0:34:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I one hundred percent agree with you on the acts,

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:27.640
<v Speaker 1>but I take it one step further. The act is

0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 1>looking for the love that they didn't get from their

0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 1>family unit. Usually they become ultra successful. They have money,

0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:44.200
<v Speaker 1>they have relationships, they have houses, they have cars, but

0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:48.200
<v Speaker 1>they're still not happy. And once they realize that they

0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:51.879
<v Speaker 1>can never make another hit record. Can you comment on that?

0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, still, as long as they're not happy, they'll probably

0:34:56.880 --> 0:34:59.280
<v Speaker 2>gone making hit records. The problem is that they get happy.

0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:03.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, I mean your blobby to manager, why don't

0:35:03.120 --> 0:35:05.440
<v Speaker 2>you help your artists? Why don't you centered a psychiatrist, Well,

0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.000
<v Speaker 2>we do, and they're nearly all bipolar are They're given

0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:10.839
<v Speaker 2>medication and the medication helps me. But you know, by

0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:12.799
<v Speaker 2>the time an artist is twenty five or thirty, he

0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:16.160
<v Speaker 2>is used to his is a disability. It's like being

0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:19.480
<v Speaker 2>partly blind or not having a limb. Learn to live

0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:21.920
<v Speaker 2>with it. They enjoy their disabilities. You know, many blind

0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:24.160
<v Speaker 2>people don't want to be given sights. You know, it's

0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:27.040
<v Speaker 2>extraordinary for people like us to believe that, but you know,

0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:29.160
<v Speaker 2>there are people who are deaf who don't want to

0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:31.319
<v Speaker 2>be given hearing, and people who are blind who don't

0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:33.640
<v Speaker 2>want the sight to be given to them, and people

0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.640
<v Speaker 2>live with it. Learn to love their disabilities. We have. Look,

0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 2>we've all got some sort of disability as some sort

0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:40.960
<v Speaker 2>if you look into yourself and own up with some quirk,

0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.000
<v Speaker 2>something which you makes you a better person if you

0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 2>didn't have it, but you like it. You learn to

0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:49.480
<v Speaker 2>live with it. And they enjoy their mental distress if

0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:51.399
<v Speaker 2>you like. They enjoy being able to deal with it.

0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:55.920
<v Speaker 2>They get medication for the help their bipolarism, but they

0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 2>take it. They're not very creative, so they don't take it,

0:35:58.719 --> 0:36:01.759
<v Speaker 2>and then they have creative periods and then they're out

0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 2>of their heads, so they do take it. Yeah, a

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:07.800
<v Speaker 2>lot of people stop taking their bipolar medicine to be creative,

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 2>and then once they've created the basic outline of what

0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:13.920
<v Speaker 2>they want to do song wise or whatever it is,

0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:16.680
<v Speaker 2>they go back to taking it so they can now

0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:20.719
<v Speaker 2>edit it and polish it in a calmer form. The

0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:28.120
<v Speaker 2>difficulty for managers. If you really went to work improving

0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.160
<v Speaker 2>the mental health of your artists until they were completely

0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:35.480
<v Speaker 2>completely boring, they would be completely boring. There would be

0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:37.520
<v Speaker 2>no music. So I think you're wrong about that. As

0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:40.480
<v Speaker 2>long as they're still unhappy, they'll still make music. You know,

0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:45.400
<v Speaker 2>when you creating two artists is like taking an aspirint

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:51.040
<v Speaker 2>or something ball stronger than harassment. It is at the

0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.040
<v Speaker 2>moment it soothes the distress.

0:36:55.600 --> 0:36:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go to the half of what I said.

0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Only musical trends can change. But why do most acts

0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:09.359
<v Speaker 1>have a active, successful career and don't have a recording

0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:10.239
<v Speaker 1>hit thereafter?

0:37:12.960 --> 0:37:18.279
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the public. I think the public like

0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:24.799
<v Speaker 2>artists at a certain point, a certain projection. You know

0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:27.560
<v Speaker 2>what when you create, when you create a record and

0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 2>it's a huge shit ah, it's very this instance, quite

0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:38.440
<v Speaker 2>a long time ago that twenty years guys asked back

0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 2>to work for Shelly Bassy, and I thought it's a

0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:45.080
<v Speaker 2>great idea. Yes, times she made another record and I

0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:47.279
<v Speaker 2>went off and found a couple of records. You want

0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:51.120
<v Speaker 2>to make a record. But it was very clear, very quickly,

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that nobody wanted to record for her. But this was

0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:56.080
<v Speaker 2>an artist who went out for one hundred thousand pounds

0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.080
<v Speaker 2>a night, and I'm talking a long time ago. This

0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:01.399
<v Speaker 2>is huge, huge money. And continue to she could get

0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:05.279
<v Speaker 2>many many months or years ahead as you wanted. And

0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:07.600
<v Speaker 2>yet it was quite clear nobody was going to make

0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:12.359
<v Speaker 2>another record, but a successful record with so we buy.

0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:15.560
<v Speaker 2>We fall in love with an artist with a certain imagery,

0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:19.319
<v Speaker 2>a certain moment, a certain pain or aura which surrounds them,

0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:22.640
<v Speaker 2>and that's what we want, that's what we like. We're stuck.

0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:26.719
<v Speaker 2>We don't think of you name anassist to most of them.

0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:31.359
<v Speaker 2>We think of only only in that period. Very very

0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:35.680
<v Speaker 2>few transcend it. Some do, some do, at least for

0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:39.080
<v Speaker 2>life work they do. I mean, we love Mick Jagger

0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>being eighty, it's extraordinary, but we do. I actually like

0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:45.360
<v Speaker 2>watching Mick Jagger at eighty now that I used to

0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:47.319
<v Speaker 2>love him when he was twenty five or thirty, but

0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:50.720
<v Speaker 2>I actually enjoy watching this old man is so utterly

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:55.600
<v Speaker 2>brilliant on stage, and Bruce Springsteen the same mid seventies.

0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:59.080
<v Speaker 2>I like him at that. You're saying, now, can he

0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:03.040
<v Speaker 2>make a successful record? It's very difficult because that the

0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.719
<v Speaker 2>market which wanted that successful record as a market for

0:39:05.840 --> 0:39:07.520
<v Speaker 2>the same age as he was when you made it,

0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:12.360
<v Speaker 2>and we're not. It's the market which is the problem.

0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:15.399
<v Speaker 2>We're not receptive to a record by an old man.

0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:21.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back once again to the relationship. I

0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:26.400
<v Speaker 1>know of household name acts who fired their manager because

0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:29.359
<v Speaker 1>the manager didn't come out on the road, didn't come

0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:32.719
<v Speaker 1>out on the opening gig. To what degree? As a

0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:35.719
<v Speaker 1>manager you thinking that, you know, there's some act you're

0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:39.080
<v Speaker 1>connecting with multiple times a day. Other acts, you say,

0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:42.760
<v Speaker 1>I better call them or email them text in these days,

0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:46.320
<v Speaker 1>I better maintain the relationship otherwise is going to be

0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:47.080
<v Speaker 1>a bad result.

0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:51.040
<v Speaker 2>It's a difficult one, Bob. If you if you want,

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:54.600
<v Speaker 2>if you once start going to every gig by an artist,

0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:57.280
<v Speaker 2>that's what you're going to do the rest of your life,

0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:00.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, And and you don't be on the road.

0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:02.839
<v Speaker 2>Is that you've got tour manager for that, and that's

0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:05.560
<v Speaker 2>a waste of a manager's time. The same you know,

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:08.120
<v Speaker 2>an artists on has complained why you've got two acts. Well,

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:10.919
<v Speaker 2>every single contact I have anywhere in the world, through

0:40:11.000 --> 0:40:13.640
<v Speaker 2>any means, is a benefit to my management of you.

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:15.440
<v Speaker 2>And you're going to benefit from you having two or

0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:19.120
<v Speaker 2>three or four us a'smare contact. But not to go

0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:20.640
<v Speaker 2>to an opening night, not to go with an a

0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:24.600
<v Speaker 2>portant event, not to turn up say once every five

0:40:24.680 --> 0:40:27.480
<v Speaker 2>or six gigs, that's really stupid too. And of course

0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:29.480
<v Speaker 2>they want to see you there. They're like you, they

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.120
<v Speaker 2>support you, they feel more confident when you're around. They

0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:33.799
<v Speaker 2>want to tell you what problems they've had since you

0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:37.920
<v Speaker 2>were last around. I think not to go at all

0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:40.279
<v Speaker 2>is completely foolish, and to go all the time is

0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.239
<v Speaker 2>just it's not a benefit to anyone and it or

0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:45.600
<v Speaker 2>where you are and it will be an over familiarity

0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:47.719
<v Speaker 2>they don't want you will end up as a tea boy.

0:40:47.800 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Then, But how about other means of communication? Do you say, oh,

0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:55.799
<v Speaker 1>I haven't heard from so and so in three days,

0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:57.040
<v Speaker 1>I better make contact.

0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, assess them all you know, if you think

0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:05.040
<v Speaker 2>he's really happy that he hasn't heard from you for

0:41:05.080 --> 0:41:08.879
<v Speaker 2>three days, perhaps you leave alone for a bit. But look,

0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:12.880
<v Speaker 2>it's now different from a marriage, is it. You know,

0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:17.200
<v Speaker 2>you go away for two days and normally you don't

0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:19.040
<v Speaker 2>like to travel together, and know you're going to go

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.480
<v Speaker 2>where somewhere on business two days, and actually you realize

0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:23.560
<v Speaker 2>you're both going to enjoy it. She's going to go

0:41:23.560 --> 0:41:25.880
<v Speaker 2>off with her girlfriends or do something. You're going to

0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:29.319
<v Speaker 2>be doing something different, and you make a judgment. Shall

0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:31.359
<v Speaker 2>I call the next day? Oh that's just too much?

0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Come on, we're together three hundred and sixty five days

0:41:34.719 --> 0:41:37.359
<v Speaker 2>a year. Surely two days apart will be nice. Enjoy

0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:39.560
<v Speaker 2>it and how many days do you let that go?

0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:43.839
<v Speaker 2>It's no difference. It's exactly the same group. And this

0:41:43.880 --> 0:41:46.719
<v Speaker 2>is the next Really a thing about managing a group

0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>is you're managing four or five people and they're completely different.

0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:52.719
<v Speaker 2>One person in that group is going to be the

0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:56.920
<v Speaker 2>real classic artist type we're talking about who's driven the group,

0:41:57.000 --> 0:42:00.080
<v Speaker 2>who creates a group has got this huge angst hanging

0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:03.640
<v Speaker 2>over him, who's mentally disturbed, who has driven to be

0:42:03.920 --> 0:42:06.640
<v Speaker 2>performed because of something that's happened in Chanted. The other

0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:09.319
<v Speaker 2>three or four may be nothing more than just very

0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:12.000
<v Speaker 2>good craftsmen who surround him well and give him company,

0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:16.480
<v Speaker 2>who plays superbly well and wouldn't play so well without

0:42:16.520 --> 0:42:19.040
<v Speaker 2>him there. But they're not the same type of personality.

0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:21.719
<v Speaker 2>And you usually get one person in the group who

0:42:21.760 --> 0:42:26.520
<v Speaker 2>is an incredibly difficult mona, I mean, who dislikes everything

0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 2>and grumbles. They may not be that important musically, but

0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:33.279
<v Speaker 2>they might be important glue to the group, and you

0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:35.680
<v Speaker 2>have to deal with all of them and say you're

0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:38.680
<v Speaker 2>dealing with their internal conflicts or thinking what's best for

0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:42.759
<v Speaker 2>each of them. You know, it's not as simple as

0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:46.680
<v Speaker 2>go and see the group five people. It may well

0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:49.800
<v Speaker 2>be talking to each one of them separately, some of

0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:50.800
<v Speaker 2>them more often than others.

0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:56.879
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you've traveled the world, You've written books, you have

0:42:57.120 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 1>a great number of relationships. Did you consciously establish those

0:43:03.200 --> 0:43:04.799
<v Speaker 1>or is it just a matter of the people you

0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:09.399
<v Speaker 1>worked with that you maintain the relationships? How did you

0:43:09.840 --> 0:43:12.760
<v Speaker 1>hate to use this term? How did you grow your network?

0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Wow? Travel eating out to me? I mean, you know,

0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:22.560
<v Speaker 2>I wrote a book. I'm coming to take you to lunch,

0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:26.799
<v Speaker 2>And I've often said that I did I think for

0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:31.319
<v Speaker 2>twenty or thirty years, I thought lunch was the key

0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.600
<v Speaker 2>thing to the music industry. Not eating. I mean, you know,

0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.320
<v Speaker 2>it's being in a restaurant. It's it's you go to

0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:41.360
<v Speaker 2>lunch and you're with somebody, you discuss something, very amicable surroundings,

0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:44.040
<v Speaker 2>you see other people, You call over to the other tatorle, hello,

0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:46.360
<v Speaker 2>you know what's going on? We must get together, we

0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:51.560
<v Speaker 2>see each other. It's the most casual way to expand

0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:55.319
<v Speaker 2>your relationship without without you know, being introduced to someone

0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:58.680
<v Speaker 2>is too is too sincere, too difficult to Now we've

0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:00.759
<v Speaker 2>got to sit down and talk because he's that man

0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:03.440
<v Speaker 2>just introduces. We've got to say something meaningful. You know,

0:44:03.880 --> 0:44:05.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't much like this guy, or maybe I could

0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 2>like him in other sectences. But lunch, talking across for it,

0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:12.600
<v Speaker 2>talking across the restaurant, going to table or table, being

0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:16.960
<v Speaker 2>with the person you're with, it is to me it's

0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:20.360
<v Speaker 2>a finitive way of growing networks. It's not quick. You

0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:22.320
<v Speaker 2>can't do it for two weeks and suddenly have a network.

0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:24.640
<v Speaker 2>But you've done it for fifty years, you end up

0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:26.719
<v Speaker 2>knowing an awful lot of people. And I would have

0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:30.680
<v Speaker 2>thought half of all the people I know in the

0:44:30.760 --> 0:44:34.200
<v Speaker 2>music industry, I first met somewhere at a meal or

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:36.759
<v Speaker 2>a dinner, and I probably wasn't having that dinner with

0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:40.960
<v Speaker 2>them through somebody I was there. Other people do it

0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:43.000
<v Speaker 2>by going to music business events, but I don't like

0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:47.399
<v Speaker 2>music business events. I've often actually said I don't quite

0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:50.919
<v Speaker 2>mean it, but I do mean it too. I've never

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.560
<v Speaker 2>felt part of the music industry. I think what I

0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:56.080
<v Speaker 2>mean is I often haven't felt part of the music industry.

0:44:56.560 --> 0:45:00.439
<v Speaker 2>But the music industry is it's very split into two things.

0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:03.520
<v Speaker 2>Anything I've gone to a record I've said, anything I've

0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:05.520
<v Speaker 2>gone to a record company, I felt I was visiting

0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:07.480
<v Speaker 2>the music industry. When I left the record company, I

0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:10.520
<v Speaker 2>thought I was leaving the music industry. I've always felt that.

0:45:10.560 --> 0:45:14.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, the music industry is really two, two completely

0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:17.560
<v Speaker 2>different sections. So there is the corporate section, and the

0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:21.160
<v Speaker 2>corporate section would be the majors with Sony and Water

0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:27.040
<v Speaker 2>and Universal. Probably the collection Society is probably William Morris CIA.

0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:30.719
<v Speaker 2>And that is they're always like the government. That's that's

0:45:30.800 --> 0:45:33.360
<v Speaker 2>the civil service, that's the government. They set the rules,

0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:36.120
<v Speaker 2>this is how they do things. All they're interested in money. Yes,

0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:38.120
<v Speaker 2>they talk about music. But actually they don't give a

0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:41.800
<v Speaker 2>damn about music. They get about money, about making it work,

0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:46.000
<v Speaker 2>about huge amounts of money generates, and that's that's fine,

0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:48.320
<v Speaker 2>because that's the money we all need. That's the money

0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.080
<v Speaker 2>that the industry has and generates, and we other creative

0:45:51.160 --> 0:45:54.480
<v Speaker 2>forty percent can use. So they like the government. And

0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:56.680
<v Speaker 2>who wants to work for the government. It's not that

0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:58.480
<v Speaker 2>you don't need a government. We need a government. We

0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:01.000
<v Speaker 2>want a government, but there are there are an unelected

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.120
<v Speaker 2>government unless you choose to wiegle you away and become

0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:06.560
<v Speaker 2>part of it. And the creative part of the industry

0:46:06.640 --> 0:46:09.560
<v Speaker 2>is what I love, the scams and the fun and

0:46:09.640 --> 0:46:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the music. But you know, the music and the scams

0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:16.240
<v Speaker 2>are equally fun because no major artist has ever been made,

0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:19.440
<v Speaker 2>or built or created without scams. The idea that the

0:46:19.520 --> 0:46:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Rolling Stones would have had hits just with the music,

0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:25.080
<v Speaker 2>without the imagery and things Andrew who Golden did with them,

0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:27.400
<v Speaker 2>or the Beatles could have had their hits without the

0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:32.200
<v Speaker 2>look and their hairstyle and the suits. Every major artist,

0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 2>even the ones you think are the most austere or unscammed,

0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.879
<v Speaker 2>where a combination of image and music. That is how

0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:42.960
<v Speaker 2>the industry works. And I can't think of any act

0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I've ever seen where the music alone solved the act.

0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:48.799
<v Speaker 2>It was always the image with the music, and where

0:46:48.840 --> 0:46:51.120
<v Speaker 2>you think it wasn't the image, you think again, as

0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:54.440
<v Speaker 2>it was the lack of obvious flamboyance in the image

0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:58.320
<v Speaker 2>which made it, or always as a combination.

0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're a manager, what can you tell us about

0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.840
<v Speaker 1>the personality of someone who works for a label or agency?

0:47:13.280 --> 0:47:16.000
<v Speaker 1>The soul called myr quotes government.

0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:22.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, usually their dream of leaving and getting their independence

0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:25.840
<v Speaker 2>and using what they've learned to work as an independent

0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.719
<v Speaker 2>outside of it. And often they do and they don't

0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:33.319
<v Speaker 2>get more interesting. They they either were boring to start with,

0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:35.960
<v Speaker 2>or the corporation has taking the edge off their soul.

0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Within the corporations, there are always one or two people who, really,

0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:44.960
<v Speaker 2>in my use of we don't belong in corporations. They dominate,

0:47:45.000 --> 0:47:47.600
<v Speaker 2>they take over, They run corporations in a way which

0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:50.040
<v Speaker 2>is so flamboyant that they really should have belonged to

0:47:50.040 --> 0:47:52.879
<v Speaker 2>the forty percent, you know, the water yetnikov or the God.

0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I'd leave us some people that they they're huge personalities

0:47:57.040 --> 0:47:59.920
<v Speaker 2>and they didn't need to be corporate. But the bulk

0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:04.440
<v Speaker 2>of the corporation are corporate, and they're dull, and they

0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:08.120
<v Speaker 2>depend on salaries, and they're not if they're cast off

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:12.319
<v Speaker 2>from that their own functional world and tomorrow function well

0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:16.800
<v Speaker 2>within the corporation. It's either I find it very difficult

0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:21.560
<v Speaker 2>to get any joy from being in a corporation. At

0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:24.839
<v Speaker 2>the same time, I don't dislike them. We use them.

0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:28.279
<v Speaker 2>And the outside of the managers, the ultimate outside, goes

0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:31.960
<v Speaker 2>into the corporation to raid it. I mean, you go in,

0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:34.200
<v Speaker 2>you have to learn to manipulate it. A half of

0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:37.560
<v Speaker 2>your artists. And the other interesting fact, of course is

0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:41.279
<v Speaker 2>whereas managers never join the corporate world, the artists do.

0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:44.720
<v Speaker 2>The artists sign a contract with the corporate world, agreeing

0:48:44.760 --> 0:48:47.759
<v Speaker 2>to enter into it, become a part of everything they

0:48:48.160 --> 0:48:52.759
<v Speaker 2>ostensibly don't like. So the artists get tied into the

0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:57.400
<v Speaker 2>corporate world and the way the managers don't and compromise

0:48:57.600 --> 0:49:01.200
<v Speaker 2>every big artist. The idea that the artists don't compromise,

0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:05.080
<v Speaker 2>it's absurd. The bigger the artists is, the more they've compromised.

0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Because the artist needs the industry to make them what

0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:10.040
<v Speaker 2>they are, they're not going to get that audience they

0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:12.759
<v Speaker 2>need and crave so much without the industry doing it

0:49:12.800 --> 0:49:15.560
<v Speaker 2>for them. So the artists are the people who compromise.

0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:19.000
<v Speaker 2>There are many, many great singers and players and musicians

0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:22.319
<v Speaker 2>who are not big stars because they didn't compromise. So

0:49:22.400 --> 0:49:26.520
<v Speaker 2>it's the idea. The artist doesn't compromise, it's disrupt The

0:49:26.600 --> 0:49:29.759
<v Speaker 2>manager's there to oversee the degree of compromise, to help

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:33.799
<v Speaker 2>the decrease the compromise, to keep them away from going

0:49:33.840 --> 0:49:36.000
<v Speaker 2>too far, and helping them get into it when they

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:36.480
<v Speaker 2>don't want to.

0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:40.640
<v Speaker 1>You talk about not feeling like you're a part of

0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:44.560
<v Speaker 1>the music industry, is that a result of the role

0:49:44.880 --> 0:49:50.240
<v Speaker 1>the manager independent or is that your personality which comes

0:49:50.280 --> 0:49:51.640
<v Speaker 1>from your background.

0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:56.319
<v Speaker 2>My personality, for sure, I like being an outsider, you know,

0:49:56.440 --> 0:50:00.759
<v Speaker 2>I felt that about everything. You know. People say, is

0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:03.040
<v Speaker 2>it because you're gay? No, because it's going to help

0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:05.560
<v Speaker 2>feel part of the gay world. I mean I don't

0:50:05.600 --> 0:50:07.640
<v Speaker 2>like being part of it. Well, I don't like parties,

0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:12.520
<v Speaker 2>as you know. Well, when when Live Aid took place,

0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:15.520
<v Speaker 2>George was going to go and sing there, Andrew's going

0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:18.759
<v Speaker 2>to go and stay singing with him. All the managers

0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:20.719
<v Speaker 2>were told they could come. Everybody had to go by

0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:22.680
<v Speaker 2>helicopter because the roads are going to be blocked up

0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:25.320
<v Speaker 2>to Wembley all day. We had all been a helicopter

0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:26.880
<v Speaker 2>at ten o'clock in the morning and it would go

0:50:26.920 --> 0:50:29.959
<v Speaker 2>on till ten in the evening. And I just thought,

0:50:30.160 --> 0:50:33.360
<v Speaker 2>what an absolute fucking notemare I'm going to be stuck

0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:36.600
<v Speaker 2>for ten hours with all these people, can't go anywhere,

0:50:36.640 --> 0:50:39.680
<v Speaker 2>and you're backstage and they're going to be talking rubbish

0:50:39.760 --> 0:50:42.840
<v Speaker 2>and taking a caine and they'll be ghastly catering. You know,

0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:46.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm not. I'm not going there. I want nothing to

0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:48.120
<v Speaker 2>do with it. So I didn't go. That sort of

0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.319
<v Speaker 2>titrifies because you know, I missed something which is an

0:50:50.360 --> 0:50:53.160
<v Speaker 2>incredible occasion. I should have been it, but it just

0:50:53.239 --> 0:50:54.120
<v Speaker 2>looked horrible to me.

0:50:56.040 --> 0:51:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, in the book about your career, sour Mouth Sweet Bottom,

0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:04.000
<v Speaker 1>you talk a lot about Armed, Armed or it again.

0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:06.240
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us some stories there.

0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:10.759
<v Speaker 2>I loved the guy and he was not a corporate guy,

0:51:10.960 --> 0:51:13.200
<v Speaker 2>and it was extraordinary how he got dragged into the

0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:16.080
<v Speaker 2>corporate world. But he didn't. I mean he really he

0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:19.960
<v Speaker 2>worked within it and stayed out of it. He was

0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:26.800
<v Speaker 2>just he was as unusual for Americans in the music industry.

0:51:27.360 --> 0:51:32.200
<v Speaker 2>He was bilingual, he knew art books, was the most

0:51:32.239 --> 0:51:39.120
<v Speaker 2>sophisticated European style person. And that made him very agreeable

0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:44.400
<v Speaker 2>to me. And and he loved music, and he loved

0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:47.680
<v Speaker 2>the scam and the and the difficulty and that. You know,

0:51:47.960 --> 0:51:51.600
<v Speaker 2>he was more interested in going out with Mick Jagger

0:51:51.680 --> 0:51:54.000
<v Speaker 2>every night for a year to persuade him to sign

0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:56.400
<v Speaker 2>with the label than he was with having him on

0:51:56.440 --> 0:51:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the label. If you see what I mean. It was

0:51:58.040 --> 0:52:02.600
<v Speaker 2>the chase, it was the fun. There were more stories

0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:08.239
<v Speaker 2>revolving around the army was what's that wonderful story when

0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:12.960
<v Speaker 2>arm it one night and he calls up Mick and says, Mick,

0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to a party and mix it up. But

0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:17.840
<v Speaker 2>he'll come on, Mick, come to a party with me,

0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:21.480
<v Speaker 2>and so mix it okay? Is this after midnight? I'll

0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:23.120
<v Speaker 2>go to a party with you. There isn't a party,

0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:25.160
<v Speaker 2>so it's got to creative party, you know. So he

0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:27.680
<v Speaker 2>calls up Share and Shares and says, Share, we're going

0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:29.640
<v Speaker 2>to come around and see you. And Shares just started

0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:35.200
<v Speaker 2>an affair with with with David. What's not God? Wasn't

0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:41.240
<v Speaker 2>it gay? David? Please tell me the the.

0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.479
<v Speaker 1>Well I'm thinking of Greg allman, I'm thinking of you know.

0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:47.520
<v Speaker 2>The guy, and Share has just started an affair with

0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:49.440
<v Speaker 2>David Geffing is something in the straight period?

0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:50.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay?

0:52:50.640 --> 0:52:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And so arm It calls up to Share and says,

0:52:53.440 --> 0:52:55.000
<v Speaker 2>we're coming round. We're coming around for a drink and

0:52:55.040 --> 0:52:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Shares where it's two in the morning. I says, yeah, well,

0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:01.160
<v Speaker 2>what's wrong with that. Let's go around, And so Arbit

0:53:01.440 --> 0:53:05.320
<v Speaker 2>takes Mick around and some drunken countess he's found somewhere

0:53:05.320 --> 0:53:07.239
<v Speaker 2>else in the restaurant and they all turn up at

0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Shares place, and Shares somehow got herself together and come down, says,

0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:12.839
<v Speaker 2>and David gifts and say're looking very grumpy because they

0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:18.600
<v Speaker 2>just got into bed, and Army says. Arvid says to David,

0:53:19.200 --> 0:53:22.480
<v Speaker 2>uh get the champagne out, And David said, we hadn't

0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:24.960
<v Speaker 2>got there, and hit says, well, we never had that

0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:31.879
<v Speaker 2>problem where Sonny was here? Is there a sums up Arbit?

0:53:32.040 --> 0:53:35.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, he was out every night all night and

0:53:35.840 --> 0:53:37.920
<v Speaker 2>what he what he liked when anything else was being

0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:41.080
<v Speaker 2>able to walk into a corporate meeting at Warners at

0:53:41.160 --> 0:53:42.920
<v Speaker 2>nine in the morning or nine thirty in the morning,

0:53:42.920 --> 0:53:46.080
<v Speaker 2>a big meeting something you know, the monthly really important meeting,

0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:51.080
<v Speaker 2>and he'd been out all night drinking, drugging, listen to music, dancing,

0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:53.680
<v Speaker 2>and he could walk in and be as sharp and

0:53:53.760 --> 0:53:58.960
<v Speaker 2>as effective as all the others he enjoyed. He enjoyed

0:53:58.960 --> 0:54:00.600
<v Speaker 2>that more than anything else.

0:54:02.520 --> 0:54:04.279
<v Speaker 1>And what about yetnikov.

0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Look if I knew less well, manual quite well, but

0:54:09.800 --> 0:54:13.200
<v Speaker 2>he was less. He was just so he was just

0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:18.640
<v Speaker 2>so explosively. He loved his Jewishness and throwing out and

0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:22.920
<v Speaker 2>I always liked that. So, you know, I've got this

0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:27.360
<v Speaker 2>deficiency that I wasn't Jewish. I would loved to have

0:54:27.600 --> 0:54:30.359
<v Speaker 2>added the whole Jewish culture to all the things I am.

0:54:30.400 --> 0:54:32.600
<v Speaker 2>They have been gays great, but to have been Jewish,

0:54:32.760 --> 0:54:36.200
<v Speaker 2>imn have to be black and crippled and any anything

0:54:36.239 --> 0:54:39.279
<v Speaker 2>which will give you another another view of life. But

0:54:39.360 --> 0:54:41.719
<v Speaker 2>I was brought up, you know. I went to the

0:54:41.719 --> 0:54:44.120
<v Speaker 2>film Inustry when I was eighteen, and to everybody in

0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:45.600
<v Speaker 2>the film store, I was working with the Jewish. So

0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:49.719
<v Speaker 2>all day you were hearing Yiddish and Jewish jokes and

0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:53.439
<v Speaker 2>Jewish humor. And it seemed to me the way music

0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:57.360
<v Speaker 2>show business should be rung, you know, So I like that,

0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:01.600
<v Speaker 2>so very felt very comfortable around around Walter, and because

0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:03.440
<v Speaker 2>he's spent a long time with Alan Grabman, who was

0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:07.080
<v Speaker 2>another another person saying they'd spend hours on the found

0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:13.040
<v Speaker 2>together just just talking bullshit together, swearing and just saying.

0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:18.440
<v Speaker 2>And he talked in that he talked in a way

0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:20.680
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't really him, which so many people in that

0:55:20.680 --> 0:55:22.560
<v Speaker 2>position to, you know. He said, yeah, we got to

0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:24.680
<v Speaker 2>fuck the artists. We've got you know, we fucked the

0:55:24.719 --> 0:55:26.560
<v Speaker 2>artists before they fuck us. We've got to get this

0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:29.120
<v Speaker 2>go that. And of course he wasn't inside. He wasn't

0:55:29.160 --> 0:55:31.640
<v Speaker 2>like that at all. He loved artists. It was just

0:55:32.800 --> 0:55:38.000
<v Speaker 2>marcho businessman talk, but he was. He did get mad.

0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:40.160
<v Speaker 2>He out of control for years. I'm like, go to

0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:42.320
<v Speaker 2>New York and have a meeting, and after as I

0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:46.120
<v Speaker 2>go upstairs and see his water around there, said yeah,

0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:49.440
<v Speaker 2>go and just walk in and see water. And he'd

0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:52.520
<v Speaker 2>be putting cocaine in his vodka and it's only eleven

0:55:52.560 --> 0:55:55.759
<v Speaker 2>in the morning, and he'd sit there and say, who

0:55:55.760 --> 0:55:58.000
<v Speaker 2>can I know? You know, who can I and who

0:55:58.000 --> 0:56:00.680
<v Speaker 2>can I call up? Bloody David Gef And I don't

0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:02.600
<v Speaker 2>like that. I got to call him out. He him

0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:04.400
<v Speaker 2>called people up and just say things out of the

0:56:04.400 --> 0:56:08.560
<v Speaker 2>blue to absolutely infuriate them. You know, David, we were

0:56:08.560 --> 0:56:10.279
<v Speaker 2>pulling the record. We're not putting it out. You know.

0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:12.760
<v Speaker 2>He held the phone out. Let me hear David explain,

0:56:13.600 --> 0:56:15.480
<v Speaker 2>and he said, as okay, we'll put it out. He

0:56:17.000 --> 0:56:19.799
<v Speaker 2>had he was a wicked schoolboy, he really was.

0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You're born in

0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:28.919
<v Speaker 1>the late thirties. Are you aware of World War two?

0:56:29.520 --> 0:56:32.680
<v Speaker 1>And what degree does the war in the aftermath affect

0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:33.480
<v Speaker 1>you as a person.

0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Very late thirties, ninety thirty nine. Before the war started,

0:56:39.520 --> 0:56:42.759
<v Speaker 2>it started shortly afterwards. I was worried war because from

0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:47.320
<v Speaker 2>the age of two we were shipped out of London

0:56:47.560 --> 0:56:50.799
<v Speaker 2>because it wasn't safe, and so my mother and my

0:56:51.000 --> 0:56:55.759
<v Speaker 2>sister and I went to dev just quiet little Enclaven

0:56:56.640 --> 0:57:01.520
<v Speaker 2>by the sea, and my mother, both my mother and

0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:05.279
<v Speaker 2>my father had been orphans. Both in both cases they

0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:07.799
<v Speaker 2>were brought up by my mother by aunts and my

0:57:07.920 --> 0:57:12.160
<v Speaker 2>father by by justice mother, and they didn't know how

0:57:12.360 --> 0:57:13.799
<v Speaker 2>to be parents. So I don't be in that in

0:57:13.800 --> 0:57:17.400
<v Speaker 2>a bad way. It's a wonderful work. There was no costting,

0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:21.680
<v Speaker 2>there was no over control, and two or three I

0:57:21.960 --> 0:57:24.240
<v Speaker 2>look back and think, this really couldn't be possible. It

0:57:24.280 --> 0:57:26.600
<v Speaker 2>was possible because it had to be that year, because

0:57:26.640 --> 0:57:29.280
<v Speaker 2>it was in that place, which meant it was ninety

0:57:29.360 --> 0:57:32.400
<v Speaker 2>forty two or forty three. I could go out by

0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:36.160
<v Speaker 2>myself and go for walks at two or three years old,

0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:38.720
<v Speaker 2>and my mother tells stories about how it would come

0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.040
<v Speaker 2>to this. We were staying in a boarding house. You know,

0:57:41.080 --> 0:57:43.440
<v Speaker 2>boarding houses, Lunch is one till one point thirty. If

0:57:43.480 --> 0:57:45.720
<v Speaker 2>you're not there, there's no lunch, and this is wartime.

0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:47.400
<v Speaker 2>If you don't eat lunch, there's no food, el sweat,

0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:50.720
<v Speaker 2>that's it. You know, they've got rations. And it come

0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:52.560
<v Speaker 2>to one o'clock and I wasn't there, and she'd run

0:57:52.560 --> 0:57:54.200
<v Speaker 2>outside to see where I was, and she couldn't find me.

0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:56.919
<v Speaker 2>She'd run down the road around and then she would

0:57:56.960 --> 0:57:58.920
<v Speaker 2>get to the beach, which was ten minutes away, and

0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:01.520
<v Speaker 2>I'd be sitting on the further out rock, sitting gazing

0:58:01.600 --> 0:58:04.520
<v Speaker 2>out and see dreaming. You know, couldn't have been more

0:58:04.520 --> 0:58:08.040
<v Speaker 2>than three years old. This is acceptable in those days.

0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:11.720
<v Speaker 2>Parents allowed their children to wander off and fend for themselves.

0:58:12.360 --> 0:58:14.320
<v Speaker 2>So I was doing that by three or four. You

0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:16.240
<v Speaker 2>can imagine how independent I was for the time I

0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:19.400
<v Speaker 2>was five or six. They gave me a when the

0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:22.640
<v Speaker 2>war was over. I think it was my sixth birthday.

0:58:23.040 --> 0:58:26.640
<v Speaker 2>I was given a bicycle for my birthday and I

0:58:26.720 --> 0:58:29.760
<v Speaker 2>cycled to school and at weekends I could go out

0:58:29.760 --> 0:58:32.800
<v Speaker 2>all day at six years old. So after breakfast I'd

0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:34.280
<v Speaker 2>take the bike as long as I was back by

0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:37.919
<v Speaker 2>six o'clock in the evening, so I had ten hours.

0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:39.640
<v Speaker 2>So I worked out how far I could cycle in

0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:42.680
<v Speaker 2>five hours, and I go there. I'd be given a

0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:44.960
<v Speaker 2>sandwich when I got there and eat my sandwich and

0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:47.240
<v Speaker 2>cycle back again and so over the next year. The

0:58:47.240 --> 0:58:49.280
<v Speaker 2>time I was six or seven, I've been everywhere around

0:58:49.320 --> 0:58:54.439
<v Speaker 2>London where you could cycle in five hours and seven

0:58:54.520 --> 0:58:57.760
<v Speaker 2>years old eight years old doing this nowadays prison. I

0:58:57.800 --> 0:59:01.240
<v Speaker 2>think parents would go to prison for allowing that to happen.

0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.520
<v Speaker 2>There was a very funny situation when I was I

0:59:05.520 --> 0:59:08.560
<v Speaker 2>think I was eight, and I really wanted to go further.

0:59:08.600 --> 0:59:10.880
<v Speaker 2>I was bored with the five out limit, and one

0:59:10.960 --> 0:59:13.600
<v Speaker 2>day I just started out cycled Waxford, which is well

0:59:13.640 --> 0:59:15.840
<v Speaker 2>over the limit, and I didn't get there to four

0:59:15.920 --> 0:59:19.760
<v Speaker 2>in the afternoon. It was really going to be in trouble,

0:59:20.520 --> 0:59:23.600
<v Speaker 2>and so I went to the local police station and

0:59:23.680 --> 0:59:25.440
<v Speaker 2>I walked in very sweet, and I was eight year

0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:28.440
<v Speaker 2>old boy pushing his bike and said, excuse me, I've

0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:31.480
<v Speaker 2>been a very naughty boy. And the policeman looked at

0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:33.440
<v Speaker 2>what have you done, sonny, And I said, well, I'm

0:59:33.480 --> 0:59:35.760
<v Speaker 2>allowed to go cycle five hours and I've become too

0:59:35.840 --> 0:59:37.680
<v Speaker 2>far and it's four o'clock and I can't get home.

0:59:38.880 --> 0:59:42.520
<v Speaker 2>And he said, oh, well, my colleague is driving down

0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:44.160
<v Speaker 2>to London half an hour. He'll take you. And they

0:59:44.240 --> 0:59:46.040
<v Speaker 2>put the bike in the truck of the car and

0:59:46.080 --> 0:59:48.400
<v Speaker 2>they drove me down and then he stopped at the

0:59:48.520 --> 0:59:50.880
<v Speaker 2>end of my road so my parents wouldn't see the

0:59:50.880 --> 0:59:55.280
<v Speaker 2>police car. I'd be home by six o'clock. That's coercion.

0:59:56.120 --> 0:59:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Everybody loved little kids in those days. There was no

0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:01.120
<v Speaker 2>There was no feeling that I needed, but protection left

1:00:01.160 --> 1:00:04.000
<v Speaker 2>people get out and live their lives. By eleven or twelve,

1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:07.040
<v Speaker 2>I was going to jazz clubs in London and allowed

1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:07.280
<v Speaker 2>to go.

1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay. America in the fifties was burgeoning. Of course, there

1:00:14.120 --> 1:00:18.439
<v Speaker 1>was racism, etc. But economically burgeoning. You talk to people

1:00:18.520 --> 1:00:22.760
<v Speaker 1>in England there were still rations. There might not be chocolate.

1:00:23.280 --> 1:00:29.800
<v Speaker 1>Were you feeling that lack? Were you envying America? Would

1:00:29.800 --> 1:00:32.840
<v Speaker 1>you do only realized it was bad when it got good?

1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:35.560
<v Speaker 1>What was your mindset back then in the fifties.

1:00:36.720 --> 1:00:39.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't think America came into our thinking much. That.

1:00:39.760 --> 1:00:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Having said that, I remember in my scenes, I got

1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:45.680
<v Speaker 2>quite good at making money when I was eleven or

1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:50.720
<v Speaker 2>twelve the music business. I started in the music business

1:00:50.760 --> 1:00:54.520
<v Speaker 2>at eleven. I joined the church chop. The local church

1:00:54.600 --> 1:00:58.400
<v Speaker 2>had a choir, and if you sang in the church

1:00:58.480 --> 1:01:01.680
<v Speaker 2>service on a Sunday you got penny. You could be

1:01:01.760 --> 1:01:04.840
<v Speaker 2>the morning service or the evening service, you got one penny.

1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:07.240
<v Speaker 2>But where you made money is when there were weddings.

1:01:07.720 --> 1:01:10.960
<v Speaker 2>And on Saturdays there were weddings, and if you were

1:01:10.960 --> 1:01:12.840
<v Speaker 2>in the choir for the wedding, you could get a shilling.

1:01:13.960 --> 1:01:17.680
<v Speaker 2>And I was quite good, and I got to sing

1:01:17.760 --> 1:01:22.040
<v Speaker 2>the solo one week, and for singing the solo at

1:01:22.080 --> 1:01:24.880
<v Speaker 2>the wedding, you've got two shots, and they gave me

1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:27.640
<v Speaker 2>six months tips. So I want to put it in

1:01:27.720 --> 1:01:29.760
<v Speaker 2>new money because it's still in his sense, but it's

1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:34.240
<v Speaker 2>quite good money then. And I remember one time, so

1:01:34.360 --> 1:01:36.480
<v Speaker 2>I sang this out as well. So let me sing

1:01:36.520 --> 1:01:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the sellar. So now I was thinking weddings. There was

1:01:38.240 --> 1:01:41.040
<v Speaker 2>the there's two weddings on a Saturday. You had to

1:01:41.080 --> 1:01:42.560
<v Speaker 2>go to the Sunday service to be allowed to do

1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:44.640
<v Speaker 2>the wedding. So it was an hour and Sunday at

1:01:44.640 --> 1:01:46.320
<v Speaker 2>the service for a penny, and then two weddings of

1:01:46.360 --> 1:01:49.240
<v Speaker 2>a Sunday for four shillings, and then you get a

1:01:49.240 --> 1:01:51.919
<v Speaker 2>little bit tips, so five shillings. This is good money.

1:01:52.080 --> 1:01:54.360
<v Speaker 2>This is double what most kids would get for pocket money.

1:01:55.080 --> 1:01:57.480
<v Speaker 2>And then one day I had a cold and the

1:01:58.080 --> 1:01:59.960
<v Speaker 2>choir master was very strict. If you had a cold,

1:02:00.160 --> 1:02:01.880
<v Speaker 2>you must tell him and you you wouldn't be allowed

1:02:01.880 --> 1:02:04.880
<v Speaker 2>to sing. Everybody get the cold. And I didn't tell him,

1:02:05.720 --> 1:02:09.840
<v Speaker 2>and the solo sang it was the Lord's My Shepherd,

1:02:10.120 --> 1:02:14.439
<v Speaker 2>the Stanford version, which ends on a high note. Little

1:02:14.520 --> 1:02:16.600
<v Speaker 2>chorus to boy goes up to this very high note,

1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:21.080
<v Speaker 2>and I got my voice cracked with then some network

1:02:22.160 --> 1:02:25.160
<v Speaker 2>pulled off the high note despite the crack, and everything's

1:02:25.400 --> 1:02:28.560
<v Speaker 2>finished beautiful, and no mag the young couple getting married,

1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:31.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, thought, oh God, a beautiful solo at our

1:02:31.040 --> 1:02:32.960
<v Speaker 2>wedding's going to be terrible, and then no, it wasn't.

1:02:33.000 --> 1:02:35.400
<v Speaker 2>It was beautiful. I finished with the lovely note, and

1:02:35.520 --> 1:02:38.360
<v Speaker 2>they gave me five shillings tip. That's a double a

1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:41.880
<v Speaker 2>whole week's pocket and just for the tip. So every

1:02:42.000 --> 1:02:44.360
<v Speaker 2>time I sang the solo in Future, I always cracked

1:02:44.400 --> 1:02:48.440
<v Speaker 2>on the last note and then brought it right. So

1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:51.320
<v Speaker 2>I made a lot of money and then my voice broke,

1:02:51.440 --> 1:02:52.240
<v Speaker 2>So that was the end of that.

1:02:54.280 --> 1:02:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you were going to school, Were you popular? Were

1:02:59.040 --> 1:03:01.880
<v Speaker 1>you a lonerre you're a good student? Were you involved

1:03:01.920 --> 1:03:03.600
<v Speaker 1>in sports? What was that like?

1:03:03.920 --> 1:03:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Nah? I wasn't. I wasn't popular or unpopular. I'd been

1:03:08.640 --> 1:03:12.760
<v Speaker 2>my parents because of my father's precumia politics. Income had

1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:15.040
<v Speaker 2>gone up and down. He was a documentary film director

1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.360
<v Speaker 2>and that was a pretty left wing sort of job,

1:03:18.480 --> 1:03:21.520
<v Speaker 2>so it didn't matter that he was passionately Communist, and

1:03:21.560 --> 1:03:24.080
<v Speaker 2>of course he confusably he talked posh. I mean, he

1:03:24.160 --> 1:03:26.680
<v Speaker 2>sounded like, you know, he just came out of Oxford University.

1:03:28.240 --> 1:03:31.600
<v Speaker 2>But things went up and down a bit financially, and

1:03:32.080 --> 1:03:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I started off after the war. Who came up to London.

1:03:34.360 --> 1:03:39.280
<v Speaker 2>I went to a very prosh private prep school and

1:03:39.440 --> 1:03:41.560
<v Speaker 2>then after a year the money ran out, so I

1:03:41.640 --> 1:03:44.120
<v Speaker 2>was sent to the local government school, which was horrific

1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:47.000
<v Speaker 2>for me. It was horrific, and I ride with the

1:03:47.040 --> 1:03:49.520
<v Speaker 2>wrong accent, because accents in England at everything, you know,

1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:52.600
<v Speaker 2>way more important than America. So they said, you know,

1:03:52.640 --> 1:03:55.120
<v Speaker 2>what's your what's your name? And I said that Napier Bell.

1:03:56.000 --> 1:03:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And that was after the toilet with me head down,

1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:01.640
<v Speaker 2>the toilet kicked my ass flash of the toilet until

1:04:01.680 --> 1:04:03.760
<v Speaker 2>I could so I was not your bell, Simon, not

1:04:03.960 --> 1:04:08.240
<v Speaker 2>your bell. But then everything's all right then for a while.

1:04:09.080 --> 1:04:10.880
<v Speaker 2>And then my dad made some more money and they

1:04:10.960 --> 1:04:12.959
<v Speaker 2>decided I ought to go to a private school again

1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:15.560
<v Speaker 2>because my education was getting had so arrived at the

1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:17.680
<v Speaker 2>private school and they say, what's your name? I said, Simon,

1:04:17.720 --> 1:04:20.280
<v Speaker 2>not your bell, and back off the toilet. You know,

1:04:20.480 --> 1:04:24.840
<v Speaker 2>posh kids is just as nasty naster kids. And very

1:04:24.920 --> 1:04:28.360
<v Speaker 2>soon I'd managed to become Simon Napier Bell. Okay, so

1:04:28.640 --> 1:04:30.480
<v Speaker 2>you change your accent all the time. So the time

1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I got to public school, I'd done that four times.

1:04:33.080 --> 1:04:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Public school being of course private school, the boarding school,

1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:43.560
<v Speaker 2>and so I'd learned to fit in. So I was

1:04:43.640 --> 1:04:47.680
<v Speaker 2>never liked or disliked. I was not aware of friends

1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:51.680
<v Speaker 2>being naturally friends in the most cases, just you knew

1:04:51.760 --> 1:04:54.439
<v Speaker 2>how to I knew how to avoid having my butt kicked.

1:04:54.760 --> 1:04:56.480
<v Speaker 2>And that's sort of about being nice to people but

1:04:56.640 --> 1:04:59.400
<v Speaker 2>not really liking them. And I think I didn't have

1:04:59.600 --> 1:05:02.120
<v Speaker 2>much of who I liked or disliked it. There's just

1:05:02.720 --> 1:05:04.600
<v Speaker 2>who might kick my butt and who wouldn't you know,

1:05:05.320 --> 1:05:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and then the ones who would how to avoid them,

1:05:07.960 --> 1:05:11.440
<v Speaker 2>making them do it and make them like the actual friends.

1:05:11.560 --> 1:05:13.360
<v Speaker 2>I probably only had two of three that I said

1:05:13.400 --> 1:05:16.360
<v Speaker 2>were real friends, and we're still friends after school when

1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I left, And I guess sure surely set me in

1:05:21.280 --> 1:05:22.960
<v Speaker 2>a good stead for being a manager. You know where

1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:26.200
<v Speaker 2>you've got to give the absolute middle ground between the

1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:30.520
<v Speaker 2>record company, which is rapacious corporate money making and the

1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:33.560
<v Speaker 2>artist who sort of wants to have a more delicate

1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:38.840
<v Speaker 2>sensitivity and create music was excellent training. The best managers

1:05:39.360 --> 1:05:42.080
<v Speaker 2>all seemed to come from some sort of training in

1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:44.200
<v Speaker 2>being middle ground. I mean, being gay too, is something

1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:47.520
<v Speaker 2>where you learn to present to faces just for your

1:05:47.560 --> 1:05:51.520
<v Speaker 2>own security. And or Miles Copeland, who is wonderful background

1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:53.720
<v Speaker 2>because his dad was the guy who invented CIA and

1:05:53.800 --> 1:05:56.840
<v Speaker 2>you said all over the world. So Miles every single

1:05:57.000 --> 1:05:59.240
<v Speaker 2>year found himself at a new school and a new

1:05:59.320 --> 1:06:02.800
<v Speaker 2>country with a language, and so he was so good

1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:06.600
<v Speaker 2>at making sure kids accepted him and you could get

1:06:06.680 --> 1:06:09.320
<v Speaker 2>in without getting hurt. It turned out to be a

1:06:09.360 --> 1:06:10.000
<v Speaker 2>brilliant manager.

1:06:17.680 --> 1:06:22.400
<v Speaker 1>What came first, Your career is a trumpeter or your

1:06:22.480 --> 1:06:23.880
<v Speaker 1>career in the film business?

1:06:25.360 --> 1:06:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Trumpeter. I was obsessed with jazz. I got a trumpet

1:06:31.200 --> 1:06:33.560
<v Speaker 2>for Christmas month. My brother got a trumpet for Christmas

1:06:33.600 --> 1:06:35.760
<v Speaker 2>and couldn't learn it, didn't even try to learn it.

1:06:35.880 --> 1:06:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Gave it to me. And at pop music we're talking

1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:42.880
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty one, pop music was appalling. It was all

1:06:43.000 --> 1:06:46.440
<v Speaker 2>it was all Mitch Mitchell's stuff. It was dreadful. You

1:06:46.480 --> 1:06:48.160
<v Speaker 2>know how much is that doggy in the window? And

1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:51.040
<v Speaker 2>I've known you were coming out of bakeder cake and

1:06:51.600 --> 1:06:56.320
<v Speaker 2>it was horrible, sentimental, gimmicky music. And I hated it,

1:06:57.200 --> 1:06:59.600
<v Speaker 2>but sort of like music, and I didn't know what

1:06:59.760 --> 1:07:02.600
<v Speaker 2>to like. And then someone turned me onto jazz, and

1:07:02.840 --> 1:07:05.120
<v Speaker 2>I can the same time I was given this trumpet,

1:07:05.160 --> 1:07:07.760
<v Speaker 2>so I completely fell in love with jazz, which was

1:07:07.800 --> 1:07:13.680
<v Speaker 2>then trad jazz. So you know Larry Louis Armstrong hot

1:07:13.760 --> 1:07:17.240
<v Speaker 2>five what seven classic jazz records, And then at that

1:07:17.400 --> 1:07:21.520
<v Speaker 2>stage in England, there was a big boost in traditional jazz.

1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:26.040
<v Speaker 2>There were amongst all this terrible American style sentimental pop

1:07:26.320 --> 1:07:29.560
<v Speaker 2>and its English cover versions, there were three jazz mans

1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:32.880
<v Speaker 2>who were doing very well in the popular music Chris

1:07:33.000 --> 1:07:39.320
<v Speaker 2>Barbera aka Built and Kenny Ball three Bees. And I

1:07:39.560 --> 1:07:42.120
<v Speaker 2>like that. I like jazz and kids, if they liked

1:07:42.440 --> 1:07:44.720
<v Speaker 2>music at all, really that's what they liked, because the

1:07:44.800 --> 1:07:49.200
<v Speaker 2>sentimental music wasn't for them. But there was no There

1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:52.439
<v Speaker 2>was no music amongst teenagers and those. It wasn't something

1:07:52.520 --> 1:07:55.440
<v Speaker 2>teenagers felt. A part of music was that for adults,

1:07:56.360 --> 1:07:59.120
<v Speaker 2>apart perhaps from the trad jazz. So I fell in

1:07:59.200 --> 1:08:01.680
<v Speaker 2>love with that. I learned everything was to learn about jazz.

1:08:03.480 --> 1:08:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Dozens of jazz records and books, and I read more

1:08:07.760 --> 1:08:09.720
<v Speaker 2>than anything else. I probably read as much as I listened.

1:08:09.800 --> 1:08:12.400
<v Speaker 2>I just loved the books on jazz. I had every

1:08:12.560 --> 1:08:16.719
<v Speaker 2>book there wasn't jazz, and I could tell you anything.

1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean I can't remember anything now that I could

1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:21.360
<v Speaker 2>tell you know what? What? What? What? The engineer at

1:08:21.400 --> 1:08:24.880
<v Speaker 2>the session when Louis Orstone's Hot five recorded this that

1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:29.280
<v Speaker 2>I was wearing and knew all about it. And then

1:08:29.360 --> 1:08:32.640
<v Speaker 2>bit by bit got to like modern jazz and liked

1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:38.120
<v Speaker 2>it even better and completely passionate about modern jazz. So

1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:41.000
<v Speaker 2>by the time I left school, my idea was to

1:08:41.080 --> 1:08:44.759
<v Speaker 2>be a jazz musician. I figured to be a jazz position,

1:08:44.800 --> 1:08:47.559
<v Speaker 2>that I had to come to America. Somehow I get

1:08:47.600 --> 1:08:49.200
<v Speaker 2>to America as the first problem, and then I had

1:08:49.240 --> 1:08:50.800
<v Speaker 2>to become black. I wasn't sure how I was going

1:08:50.840 --> 1:08:52.320
<v Speaker 2>to do that, but you know, I had this idea,

1:08:52.320 --> 1:08:54.599
<v Speaker 2>and I was a good teenage idea. I was going

1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:56.559
<v Speaker 2>to America. I was going to come a top black

1:08:56.720 --> 1:09:01.479
<v Speaker 2>jazz position. Then I got to America, it wasn't so easy.

1:09:01.960 --> 1:09:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't actually work in America, so I had to

1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:07.840
<v Speaker 2>go work in Canada because we couldn't get a green

1:09:07.920 --> 1:09:10.960
<v Speaker 2>card in America for that. But I managed to emigrate

1:09:11.000 --> 1:09:13.320
<v Speaker 2>to Canada, and I used to come every weekend come

1:09:13.400 --> 1:09:15.760
<v Speaker 2>down to New York if I when I was in

1:09:15.800 --> 1:09:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Toronto and listened to jazz and jazz pubs in New York,

1:09:20.800 --> 1:09:23.880
<v Speaker 2>and it was my whole world was obsessed with jazz.

1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:27.519
<v Speaker 2>And I had found the sad truth that to earn

1:09:27.560 --> 1:09:30.839
<v Speaker 2>a living as a trumpet player or any other musician,

1:09:31.320 --> 1:09:33.600
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't jazz. They didn't earn the living there that

1:09:34.000 --> 1:09:36.240
<v Speaker 2>even the great jazz editions I'd worshiped and had their

1:09:36.280 --> 1:09:39.200
<v Speaker 2>records in my room. While as a kids, most of

1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:41.400
<v Speaker 2>them that was a hobby. Most learned their money playing

1:09:42.080 --> 1:09:46.040
<v Speaker 2>in other bands, apart from very few, and so I

1:09:46.479 --> 1:09:49.120
<v Speaker 2>worked in a dockside tabn much like the Beatles didn't

1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:53.000
<v Speaker 2>have it. I worked in a strip club, and I

1:09:53.120 --> 1:09:54.960
<v Speaker 2>learned all the pop songs of the day because that's

1:09:55.000 --> 1:09:57.120
<v Speaker 2>what had to be played. And then this was an

1:09:57.160 --> 1:10:00.960
<v Speaker 2>extraordinary thing. Ten years had passed since I first introduced

1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:03.680
<v Speaker 2>at pop and how bad it was. I learned that

1:10:03.800 --> 1:10:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the pop songs of the day, now we're talking nineteen

1:10:07.120 --> 1:10:12.240
<v Speaker 2>sixty were very good, very well constructed, very interesting songs.

1:10:13.920 --> 1:10:16.200
<v Speaker 2>You listened to Frank Sinartis type someone kind of fly

1:10:16.360 --> 1:10:20.960
<v Speaker 2>with Me, you listen to Fat's Domino bluesy, jazzy influenced,

1:10:21.800 --> 1:10:23.240
<v Speaker 2>and I rather fell in love with pop.

1:10:24.520 --> 1:10:27.519
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how did you get in the film business?

1:10:28.760 --> 1:10:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, my dad was a documentary film director. So when

1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I went back to Indian when I finally gave up

1:10:34.560 --> 1:10:37.960
<v Speaker 2>trying to be a musician and realized I was not

1:10:38.200 --> 1:10:40.320
<v Speaker 2>going to be the greatest jazz position in the world.

1:10:41.800 --> 1:10:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Could only just earn a living playing average trumpet. I

1:10:45.720 --> 1:10:49.400
<v Speaker 2>got back to England and films seemed to be the

1:10:49.439 --> 1:10:52.559
<v Speaker 2>obvious thing to get into because because of what he'd done,

1:10:52.840 --> 1:10:55.000
<v Speaker 2>I know how to I knew how it worked, you know.

1:10:55.080 --> 1:10:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Even when I was a kid. I used to go

1:10:56.320 --> 1:10:59.439
<v Speaker 2>out on location with him and do the clapperboard or

1:10:59.520 --> 1:11:03.920
<v Speaker 2>even the film in the magazine camera. And I've worked

1:11:04.200 --> 1:11:06.400
<v Speaker 2>a bit the cutting rooms with him. So I went

1:11:06.479 --> 1:11:08.840
<v Speaker 2>back to England and managed to get a job in

1:11:08.960 --> 1:11:13.920
<v Speaker 2>the film industry as an assistant film editor. And that

1:11:14.040 --> 1:11:16.960
<v Speaker 2>was good because it was well paid and it put

1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:21.519
<v Speaker 2>me amongst affable, nice, intellectual thinking people.

1:11:23.479 --> 1:11:27.040
<v Speaker 1>So what drove you into the music business?

1:11:29.200 --> 1:11:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Well drove me I prior to going to America, I

1:11:34.360 --> 1:11:36.360
<v Speaker 2>had had a job after I left stool Them. Before

1:11:36.400 --> 1:11:39.000
<v Speaker 2>I went to America's position, I'd got a job as

1:11:39.520 --> 1:11:42.519
<v Speaker 2>Johnny Dankworth's band. And Johnny Dankworth was a big band,

1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:47.320
<v Speaker 2>and in the ninety fifties the equivalent of rock groups

1:11:47.360 --> 1:11:49.760
<v Speaker 2>were big bands. I mean there were probably thirty or

1:11:49.840 --> 1:11:54.719
<v Speaker 2>forty quite well known big bands, twelve to fifteen musicians, trumpet, brass,

1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:59.400
<v Speaker 2>sack section touring round UK, and one of the best

1:11:59.520 --> 1:12:03.000
<v Speaker 2>known Wasjohnny Dank, which was the most jazz influence band,

1:12:03.800 --> 1:12:06.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'd got a job as band boy, which is roady.

1:12:07.160 --> 1:12:08.920
<v Speaker 2>But they had a tour manager and a band boy.

1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:11.240
<v Speaker 2>See he had infected one roady at one tour manager

1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and you did all the hard work. You carried the

1:12:13.800 --> 1:12:17.759
<v Speaker 2>drums up three flights of stairs to a flat no empire,

1:12:17.760 --> 1:12:20.560
<v Speaker 2>and you set them up on stage and packed it

1:12:20.640 --> 1:12:25.760
<v Speaker 2>to when the bus rolled the joints. So what I'd

1:12:25.840 --> 1:12:28.280
<v Speaker 2>loved about that job, and they were never I was

1:12:28.320 --> 1:12:30.080
<v Speaker 2>hopefully they're going to let me play trumpet in the band.

1:12:30.120 --> 1:12:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Of course that didn't happen. But what I loved about

1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:34.519
<v Speaker 2>the job was in the bus every night going home,

1:12:35.200 --> 1:12:39.760
<v Speaker 2>they gossip and the music business gossip, which I really liked.

1:12:39.920 --> 1:12:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I thought, this is I want to be part of this.

1:12:41.960 --> 1:12:44.240
<v Speaker 2>So when I came back and worked in the film industry,

1:12:44.280 --> 1:12:46.880
<v Speaker 2>I was always thinking how nice it would be to

1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:50.920
<v Speaker 2>to somehow involve that get involved with that music business

1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:54.360
<v Speaker 2>gossip i'd heard. And when I started making quite good

1:12:54.400 --> 1:12:57.560
<v Speaker 2>money in the film industry, I started going to the

1:12:57.640 --> 1:13:00.320
<v Speaker 2>trendy clubs. It was middle of swinging London, and I

1:13:00.439 --> 1:13:05.559
<v Speaker 2>started meeting a lot of music business people and two

1:13:05.640 --> 1:13:07.160
<v Speaker 2>or three in the morning, I'd have to go home

1:13:07.240 --> 1:13:08.600
<v Speaker 2>because I had to be up and be in the

1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:11.000
<v Speaker 2>cutting rooms the next morning. And they'd all stay on,

1:13:11.160 --> 1:13:12.840
<v Speaker 2>you know. I'd say, how come you even stay on?

1:13:12.880 --> 1:13:15.280
<v Speaker 2>And they say, oh, the music business, you can go

1:13:15.360 --> 1:13:19.160
<v Speaker 2>to work when you want. And I thought, that's this

1:13:19.320 --> 1:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>is a good business. I'm going to have to get

1:13:20.680 --> 1:13:24.720
<v Speaker 2>into this. And so I was looking for opportunities and

1:13:24.840 --> 1:13:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I've met this girl. We had a hugely good relationship

1:13:29.680 --> 1:13:33.160
<v Speaker 2>with Vicky Wickham. She was one of the booking agent

1:13:33.600 --> 1:13:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the booking producers for Already sterdy Go, which was the

1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:40.640
<v Speaker 2>television teenage program in the UK the music and we

1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:45.840
<v Speaker 2>have enormous good friends and one day she one day

1:13:45.920 --> 1:13:48.080
<v Speaker 2>she turned up and said, Dusty Springfield, who was a

1:13:48.120 --> 1:13:50.280
<v Speaker 2>friend of hers, has just come back from Italy with

1:13:50.439 --> 1:13:53.000
<v Speaker 2>a with a song she wants to record in English.

1:13:53.040 --> 1:13:56.000
<v Speaker 2>It's an Italian song and how does she get lyrics

1:13:56.040 --> 1:13:58.559
<v Speaker 2>for it? And I said, why don't we write them?

1:13:59.320 --> 1:14:02.000
<v Speaker 2>And Vicky he said, well, because we've never written lyrics

1:14:02.040 --> 1:14:08.040
<v Speaker 2>before as well throwing ever bothersly let's do. And so

1:14:08.280 --> 1:14:11.080
<v Speaker 2>we sat down and wrote the lyrics. Took an hour

1:14:11.120 --> 1:14:12.439
<v Speaker 2>or two and that was you don't have to say

1:14:12.439 --> 1:14:14.800
<v Speaker 2>you love me. So suddenly I was sort of in

1:14:14.960 --> 1:14:20.640
<v Speaker 2>the music business. The number one hit. And then the Yardbirds,

1:14:20.960 --> 1:14:24.200
<v Speaker 2>who were the third biggest group in the world after

1:14:24.200 --> 1:14:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, got fed up with

1:14:27.120 --> 1:14:29.200
<v Speaker 2>their manager because they never made their money or he

1:14:29.280 --> 1:14:33.000
<v Speaker 2>never gave them any money, and they asked VICKI, who

1:14:33.040 --> 1:14:35.200
<v Speaker 2>would she recommend to manage them? And she recommended me,

1:14:36.120 --> 1:14:39.120
<v Speaker 2>And so suddenly I had a call one day saying,

1:14:39.439 --> 1:14:43.200
<v Speaker 2>this is the Yardbird said, would you like to manage us? Yes? Please.

1:14:44.000 --> 1:14:47.479
<v Speaker 2>I love doing things I haven't done before, trying new things.

1:14:48.200 --> 1:14:51.679
<v Speaker 2>So suddenly, completely in over my head, I was managing

1:14:51.760 --> 1:14:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the Yardbirds, who've all been in the business five years,

1:14:54.840 --> 1:14:58.479
<v Speaker 2>were brilliant musicians, had four or five hit records, three

1:14:58.560 --> 1:15:02.760
<v Speaker 2>number one records, and I was their manager. It's really

1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:07.519
<v Speaker 2>flying by the city of pants, But I did, you know,

1:15:07.680 --> 1:15:12.000
<v Speaker 2>sometimes not knowing what you're doing, it's a big advantage.

1:15:12.960 --> 1:15:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Because they wanted money. That was the first thing I

1:15:16.800 --> 1:15:19.240
<v Speaker 2>went out and had done with them. They said, we've

1:15:19.280 --> 1:15:21.400
<v Speaker 2>got no money, but had four number ones. We haven't

1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:23.800
<v Speaker 2>got any money at all. We drive around to gigs

1:15:23.840 --> 1:15:26.400
<v Speaker 2>and this terrible old car and we're all living with

1:15:26.479 --> 1:15:30.160
<v Speaker 2>our parents still, which is absurd. And so I went

1:15:30.240 --> 1:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>off to EMI, which is their record company, and I

1:15:33.320 --> 1:15:37.559
<v Speaker 2>told them very arrogantly, and I was I was twenty four,

1:15:37.640 --> 1:15:42.280
<v Speaker 2>twenty five. I was full of myself, quite quite sort

1:15:42.320 --> 1:15:45.720
<v Speaker 2>of appity, nasty, nasty, young chap. And I went into

1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:48.400
<v Speaker 2>EMI and I told them, your contract's not valid with

1:15:48.439 --> 1:15:51.519
<v Speaker 2>the others because it was made through their manager, and

1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:55.439
<v Speaker 2>so when they stopped being managed by him, he signed

1:15:55.479 --> 1:15:57.479
<v Speaker 2>a contract with you, not them, so it's not valid.

1:15:58.920 --> 1:16:00.960
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not sure if they thought that was right.

1:16:01.040 --> 1:16:03.799
<v Speaker 2>They talked with their lawyers, but they were sufficiently afraid

1:16:03.840 --> 1:16:05.840
<v Speaker 2>that I might be right. But they said, well, we're

1:16:05.920 --> 1:16:09.640
<v Speaker 2>negotiating a new contract. And I had no idea what

1:16:09.760 --> 1:16:11.519
<v Speaker 2>do you negotiate? I mean, this is the advantage of

1:16:11.640 --> 1:16:14.920
<v Speaker 2>not know. I didn't know what the parameters were. If

1:16:14.960 --> 1:16:17.080
<v Speaker 2>I had done, I have asked a lot, but not

1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:20.040
<v Speaker 2>beyond the parameters. But I didn't, so I just sort

1:16:20.080 --> 1:16:22.519
<v Speaker 2>of worked out my head what a records cost, having it?

1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Did they sell? Just take a percentage of that? And

1:16:26.080 --> 1:16:30.479
<v Speaker 2>I asked for a ridiculous amount of money and a

1:16:30.560 --> 1:16:34.080
<v Speaker 2>high percentage, way beyond anything they could possibly play and

1:16:34.160 --> 1:16:38.360
<v Speaker 2>they paid it. So I got the yard bloods. I mean,

1:16:38.400 --> 1:16:40.559
<v Speaker 2>it's only twenty five thousand pounds, but they'd only ever

1:16:40.600 --> 1:16:43.120
<v Speaker 2>paid the Beatles five thousand pounds. And I got a

1:16:43.200 --> 1:16:46.760
<v Speaker 2>royalty higher than the Beatles royalty because I didn't know,

1:16:47.640 --> 1:16:49.720
<v Speaker 2>and they didn't know. I didn't know, so they thought,

1:16:49.760 --> 1:16:52.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, the kid's come in here and get a stirrus.

1:16:53.439 --> 1:16:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Of course, later on I love they were only giving

1:16:56.000 --> 1:16:58.720
<v Speaker 2>us an advance on our own pipeline money. It was

1:17:00.400 --> 1:17:03.880
<v Speaker 2>you learn, but I did well, so the others are

1:17:03.920 --> 1:17:06.040
<v Speaker 2>pleased with that. So suddenly I was quite a good manager.

1:17:06.520 --> 1:17:09.719
<v Speaker 2>But then you know, I made a terrible mistake coming

1:17:09.800 --> 1:17:12.320
<v Speaker 2>home from a gig from we were in Paris. We

1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:16.000
<v Speaker 2>were walking back from the gig with Paul sam Smith,

1:17:16.040 --> 1:17:19.120
<v Speaker 2>who was the base player, and Paul said to me,

1:17:19.200 --> 1:17:20.960
<v Speaker 2>you know the thing I hate most of the whole

1:17:21.120 --> 1:17:24.640
<v Speaker 2>I really hate life work. I just can't stand it.

1:17:24.800 --> 1:17:28.400
<v Speaker 2>I hate traveling, I hate hotels, I hate being on stage,

1:17:28.520 --> 1:17:32.080
<v Speaker 2>I hate the girls screaming. I hate it. And I

1:17:32.240 --> 1:17:37.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't know that. Absolutely the first principal, most important job

1:17:37.200 --> 1:17:39.639
<v Speaker 2>of manager has is to keep your group together. There's

1:17:39.720 --> 1:17:43.600
<v Speaker 2>nothing more important. That's the one first golden rule of

1:17:43.640 --> 1:17:46.519
<v Speaker 2>being a manager keep your group together. I didn't know

1:17:46.600 --> 1:17:49.200
<v Speaker 2>that rule. So when he said he hated her, I said, oh,

1:17:49.280 --> 1:17:51.760
<v Speaker 2>you poor chap Pell for doing something you don't like.

1:17:51.920 --> 1:17:54.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, you should leave. We'll find somebody else. Don't worry,

1:17:55.040 --> 1:17:58.040
<v Speaker 2>and off he went. So I now I was managing

1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>the third biggest rock group in the world. World was

1:18:01.160 --> 1:18:05.839
<v Speaker 2>no bass player, and what an idiot I was, Except

1:18:06.439 --> 1:18:08.479
<v Speaker 2>it worked out all right because I talked to the

1:18:08.560 --> 1:18:12.920
<v Speaker 2>group and they suggested a guitar player. They knew who

1:18:13.000 --> 1:18:16.800
<v Speaker 2>I happened to know because I'd been making demos of

1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:19.880
<v Speaker 2>songs I've been trying to write, and when I use

1:18:20.360 --> 1:18:22.479
<v Speaker 2>session musicians, I always booked this guitarist and he was

1:18:22.520 --> 1:18:25.479
<v Speaker 2>called Jimmy Page. But he was a session guitarist. He

1:18:25.520 --> 1:18:28.040
<v Speaker 2>played pop music. He played on all Herman Simon's records.

1:18:28.120 --> 1:18:31.240
<v Speaker 2>He played them the guitar servers you know from pop records.

1:18:32.080 --> 1:18:34.880
<v Speaker 2>And they all say he's a good guitar guitarist, bring

1:18:35.000 --> 1:18:36.519
<v Speaker 2>him in, And I said, you know, he is good.

1:18:37.560 --> 1:18:40.160
<v Speaker 2>And Jeff Beck and him were quite good friends. And

1:18:40.240 --> 1:18:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Jeff was yardless guitarist, brilliant, the brilliant rock guitarist in Britain,

1:18:46.280 --> 1:18:48.719
<v Speaker 2>and they all said bring him in and I said,

1:18:48.720 --> 1:18:50.840
<v Speaker 2>but he won't play bass, and they said, yes he will.

1:18:50.920 --> 1:18:53.560
<v Speaker 2>He's a good guy. So I went and talked to

1:18:53.640 --> 1:18:55.639
<v Speaker 2>Jimmy and he said, yeah, I come in. I'll play bass,

1:18:55.720 --> 1:18:59.519
<v Speaker 2>but I knew he wouldn't. And the second or third

1:18:59.680 --> 1:19:03.400
<v Speaker 2>gig in, he walked across the stage and handed his

1:19:03.520 --> 1:19:07.719
<v Speaker 2>bass to Chris, the rhythm guitarists, and took the Chris's

1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:11.200
<v Speaker 2>guitar and that was it. Now we had two lead guitarists.

1:19:12.120 --> 1:19:14.640
<v Speaker 2>And for a while or sometimes I would say, and

1:19:14.760 --> 1:19:18.679
<v Speaker 2>some nights this was totally brilliant. They stood either side

1:19:18.720 --> 1:19:20.840
<v Speaker 2>of the stage. There were no mixing desks in those days.

1:19:20.920 --> 1:19:22.439
<v Speaker 2>What you heard when you went to a gig came

1:19:22.520 --> 1:19:24.599
<v Speaker 2>off the stage. You were listed for the amps coming

1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:27.200
<v Speaker 2>off the stage with no mix And so they stood

1:19:27.240 --> 1:19:28.680
<v Speaker 2>either side of the station and they played all the

1:19:28.800 --> 1:19:31.840
<v Speaker 2>solos they already knew Jeff solos from the records. They

1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:36.160
<v Speaker 2>played them in unison, which gave a stereo effect which

1:19:36.200 --> 1:19:38.120
<v Speaker 2>you couldn't get any other way than actually have two

1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:40.680
<v Speaker 2>guitarists because there were no mixing desks, and it was

1:19:41.120 --> 1:19:45.479
<v Speaker 2>enormously impacted. I mean two they had stature, they knew

1:19:45.479 --> 1:19:48.320
<v Speaker 2>how to stand and play a guitar, push themselves into

1:19:48.360 --> 1:19:51.120
<v Speaker 2>the audience. And I booked them a tour with the

1:19:51.240 --> 1:19:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Rolling Stones, so the Stones supported by the Yards, and

1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:57.000
<v Speaker 2>there were many nights on the tour when the Yardbods

1:19:57.040 --> 1:20:00.960
<v Speaker 2>stole the show. They really had a tremendous force and energy.

1:20:02.479 --> 1:20:05.680
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, they weren't happy because, you know,

1:20:06.280 --> 1:20:09.439
<v Speaker 2>Jimmy was having to play Jeff's solos, so he wasn't

1:20:09.520 --> 1:20:12.120
<v Speaker 2>his own thing, and Jeff was now sharing the limelight

1:20:12.200 --> 1:20:15.640
<v Speaker 2>with Jimmy, so they were There were good nights and

1:20:15.720 --> 1:20:18.000
<v Speaker 2>bad nights, and they got they got less and less

1:20:18.000 --> 1:20:21.960
<v Speaker 2>happy with it. And then I got them into a

1:20:22.120 --> 1:20:26.479
<v Speaker 2>movie blow up which was seen all over the world.

1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:30.400
<v Speaker 2>And I pulled that off by a stroke of you know,

1:20:31.400 --> 1:20:35.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm just a blagger. Really, I'm just I talk about scams,

1:20:35.840 --> 1:20:39.280
<v Speaker 2>but that's how music industry works. I was having dinner

1:20:39.320 --> 1:20:42.320
<v Speaker 2>one night with my friend Kit Lambert, who managed the

1:20:42.360 --> 1:20:44.599
<v Speaker 2>Who My Now Who had come up and they were

1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:48.920
<v Speaker 2>probably the fourth or fifth biggest group, and he was

1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:51.880
<v Speaker 2>a film but kid had also been in the film industry.

1:20:51.960 --> 1:20:55.360
<v Speaker 2>He worked in the cutting rooms and as a director,

1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:57.320
<v Speaker 2>and I was having dinner one night with him, and

1:20:57.360 --> 1:20:59.720
<v Speaker 2>he said, Antoni and his town and an Tonieri was

1:20:59.760 --> 1:21:04.040
<v Speaker 2>just hugely famous Italian film director. And I'd seen all

1:21:04.040 --> 1:21:05.720
<v Speaker 2>his films because my dad when I was a kid,

1:21:05.760 --> 1:21:08.720
<v Speaker 2>had maybe go and see all these Italian films. And

1:21:09.760 --> 1:21:11.760
<v Speaker 2>Kit said, he wants the Who to be in it's

1:21:11.760 --> 1:21:13.760
<v Speaker 2>a film about Swinging London. He wants the Who to

1:21:13.840 --> 1:21:17.920
<v Speaker 2>be in the film. And I was jealous. I mean

1:21:17.920 --> 1:21:20.280
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to go and Santierny. I want my group

1:21:20.320 --> 1:21:24.519
<v Speaker 2>to be in the film. And so Kit said that

1:21:24.640 --> 1:21:27.000
<v Speaker 2>he loves them because he lies to the destroyer equipment.

1:21:27.040 --> 1:21:29.559
<v Speaker 2>It's kneehelistic and that's going to go with this. Well,

1:21:29.600 --> 1:21:33.720
<v Speaker 2>how he sees Swinging London's niehelistic image. And so I

1:21:33.840 --> 1:21:37.439
<v Speaker 2>said to Kit, look that only the Who can do this,

1:21:37.600 --> 1:21:40.360
<v Speaker 2>So don't undersell. You've got to ask for ten thousand

1:21:40.439 --> 1:21:44.479
<v Speaker 2>pounds minimum. Remember I was talking about a shilling a

1:21:44.520 --> 1:21:47.639
<v Speaker 2>week for pocket money. Ten thousand pounds is like asking

1:21:47.800 --> 1:21:50.680
<v Speaker 2>two hundred three hundred thousand pounds now asked for ten

1:21:50.760 --> 1:21:54.200
<v Speaker 2>thousand pounds. And tell him this is your group. You

1:21:54.320 --> 1:21:57.840
<v Speaker 2>want editing control of that sequence. And Kit was all

1:21:57.880 --> 1:22:00.680
<v Speaker 2>fired up. He said, I will I will, and he did,

1:22:02.439 --> 1:22:04.679
<v Speaker 2>and Antoni only just threw him out of the meeting

1:22:04.800 --> 1:22:09.920
<v Speaker 2>just like that. And I was on the phone. However, Spantoni,

1:22:10.000 --> 1:22:13.400
<v Speaker 2>only you know what about my group, the Yardards. So

1:22:13.520 --> 1:22:15.200
<v Speaker 2>I went along to see him with his suite in

1:22:17.160 --> 1:22:22.799
<v Speaker 2>the Savoy Hotel and I explained that this smashing equipment,

1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:25.200
<v Speaker 2>which the who did really that was the Yardbirds did that.

1:22:25.360 --> 1:22:28.519
<v Speaker 2>The Yarbords did that. Originally they were the absolute masters

1:22:28.560 --> 1:22:31.080
<v Speaker 2>of smashing equipment. And then who stole it and it

1:22:31.200 --> 1:22:34.000
<v Speaker 2>became their actor. We thought, oh, well, if they wanted

1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:35.280
<v Speaker 2>to do it, we've done it for long enough. Now

1:22:35.320 --> 1:22:37.439
<v Speaker 2>we'll move onto something else. But actually, when it comes

1:22:37.479 --> 1:22:40.560
<v Speaker 2>to smashing equipment, we really we know, we know that

1:22:40.640 --> 1:22:44.080
<v Speaker 2>we taught them. And he said, oh, that's that's pretty good. Okay,

1:22:44.160 --> 1:22:46.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm interested in And he said how about money? I

1:22:46.720 --> 1:22:48.679
<v Speaker 2>said money. I said, we don't, we don't want paying

1:22:48.760 --> 1:22:52.040
<v Speaker 2>you're you know, you're the greatest film direction in the world.

1:22:52.560 --> 1:22:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Appear in one of your films. We can't ask for

1:22:55.160 --> 1:22:59.360
<v Speaker 2>money for that. And then he said editing. And I said, editing,

1:23:00.720 --> 1:23:03.760
<v Speaker 2>you be ashamed to even talk about with you. I

1:23:03.840 --> 1:23:06.960
<v Speaker 2>saw your films when I was eleven years old, you're

1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:09.479
<v Speaker 2>the master of filmmaking, and so we got the part,

1:23:10.400 --> 1:23:13.800
<v Speaker 2>and that was really good for all of the world.

1:23:13.800 --> 1:23:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Of the Yards were seen as playing in the Marque Club,

1:23:17.520 --> 1:23:21.519
<v Speaker 2>being the big group of three another. Okay, how did.

1:23:21.439 --> 1:23:23.719
<v Speaker 1>This affect your relationship with Kit Limbert?

1:23:24.920 --> 1:23:26.439
<v Speaker 2>Do you know where? You were best friends all our

1:23:26.520 --> 1:23:30.080
<v Speaker 2>lives and everything I did is what he would have

1:23:30.160 --> 1:23:34.400
<v Speaker 2>done to me, you know, and we did we we

1:23:35.360 --> 1:23:38.960
<v Speaker 2>did things to each other like that. After that. I

1:23:39.080 --> 1:23:41.160
<v Speaker 2>had a group later on called John's Children, and I

1:23:41.240 --> 1:23:46.160
<v Speaker 2>went on tour with them with the who we we

1:23:46.439 --> 1:23:48.439
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed doing. I mean, that was all part of being

1:23:48.479 --> 1:23:55.639
<v Speaker 2>a manager. He was the most extraordinary, vital, crazy guy

1:23:55.880 --> 1:24:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I ever knew. I'm probably the most intelligent. And I

1:24:00.760 --> 1:24:03.960
<v Speaker 2>can't remember it affecting a rusship at all. I mean

1:24:04.400 --> 1:24:06.160
<v Speaker 2>we probably had dinner again the next week. I don't

1:24:06.160 --> 1:24:08.960
<v Speaker 2>remember if we did, but we certainly never fell out.

1:24:17.080 --> 1:24:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back. What was your line of bs

1:24:21.680 --> 1:24:25.120
<v Speaker 1>that The Yardbirds, who were established act had a guy

1:24:25.320 --> 1:24:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Georgio who had been a club owner, so you could say, okay,

1:24:29.760 --> 1:24:34.400
<v Speaker 1>it was music business adjacent, but you're nowhere. How did

1:24:34.439 --> 1:24:35.120
<v Speaker 1>they decide to.

1:24:35.160 --> 1:24:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Go with you? Well, I jumped a story the hard

1:24:40.920 --> 1:24:44.320
<v Speaker 2>time We've got. But after I met Vicki and we

1:24:44.479 --> 1:24:46.280
<v Speaker 2>wrote the words so you know how to say it up.

1:24:46.640 --> 1:24:48.880
<v Speaker 2>She said you ought to be a manager, and I

1:24:48.960 --> 1:24:52.240
<v Speaker 2>thought that's a good idea. So I put together a group.

1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:57.800
<v Speaker 2>I invented a group. It was a young girl, very cute,

1:24:58.320 --> 1:25:02.840
<v Speaker 2>eighteen nineteen year old, a black girl who was from Jamaica,

1:25:03.040 --> 1:25:07.560
<v Speaker 2>who I I'd used I was working in films that

1:25:07.640 --> 1:25:10.799
<v Speaker 2>I had to find a girl to sing a television commercial,

1:25:11.080 --> 1:25:13.400
<v Speaker 2>and I'd interviewed or auditioned a whole lot of kids,

1:25:13.840 --> 1:25:16.040
<v Speaker 2>and she was one of the ones I auditioned. So

1:25:16.360 --> 1:25:18.680
<v Speaker 2>she sang beautiful and I had kept her name. And

1:25:18.800 --> 1:25:20.639
<v Speaker 2>there was a young guy I knew who was about

1:25:20.680 --> 1:25:23.400
<v Speaker 2>the same age and the same height. He was blonde

1:25:23.479 --> 1:25:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and a very pretty looking and he danced awfully well.

1:25:26.400 --> 1:25:29.280
<v Speaker 2>You'd see him in clubs or was around town dancing

1:25:29.360 --> 1:25:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and moving really really well, very cute. And I thought,

1:25:33.400 --> 1:25:35.800
<v Speaker 2>if I'd put these two people together, it would be

1:25:35.800 --> 1:25:40.320
<v Speaker 2>an amazing image. A very blonde, pale skinned guy and

1:25:40.439 --> 1:25:42.960
<v Speaker 2>he's just black girl, and they're the same height. They

1:25:42.960 --> 1:25:46.280
<v Speaker 2>always black brothers and sisters or twins or something and

1:25:46.360 --> 1:25:49.679
<v Speaker 2>he'd be a very striking image. I knew that image

1:25:49.760 --> 1:25:51.360
<v Speaker 2>was going to be striking, But what I didn't know

1:25:52.120 --> 1:25:54.680
<v Speaker 2>is there had never been a mixed race act in England. Ever.

1:25:55.560 --> 1:25:58.920
<v Speaker 2>There had been black singers who sang with white dance fans,

1:25:58.960 --> 1:26:01.200
<v Speaker 2>but there had never been a actual mixed race act.

1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:05.280
<v Speaker 2>It just never occurred to me. I presume they hadn't

1:26:05.280 --> 1:26:08.439
<v Speaker 2>been in America either, I don't know, but England they hadn't.

1:26:09.120 --> 1:26:12.280
<v Speaker 2>And so I put this act together and it was

1:26:12.360 --> 1:26:15.200
<v Speaker 2>definitely a striking image just because of it. They looked

1:26:15.240 --> 1:26:18.240
<v Speaker 2>so great and a black and white thing looked and

1:26:18.360 --> 1:26:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I got a top photographer, I don't know it was,

1:26:23.439 --> 1:26:26.160
<v Speaker 2>but one of the top photographers to take a beautiful

1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:30.200
<v Speaker 2>portrait of them, and it was this is absurdity and

1:26:30.320 --> 1:26:32.559
<v Speaker 2>how you can play games with people. It was naked

1:26:32.600 --> 1:26:35.920
<v Speaker 2>from the shoulders up, so it was from there, literally

1:26:36.040 --> 1:26:38.280
<v Speaker 2>from the shoulders up, and there was only flesh to

1:26:38.320 --> 1:26:44.040
<v Speaker 2>be seen, but just below there was normal clothes. But

1:26:45.360 --> 1:26:47.320
<v Speaker 2>what you saw was a black and a white face

1:26:47.400 --> 1:26:50.760
<v Speaker 2>with shoulders black and white shoulders. And it was a

1:26:50.840 --> 1:26:53.080
<v Speaker 2>couple of beautiful pictures and I picked the best one,

1:26:53.840 --> 1:26:59.120
<v Speaker 2>and I had a big four by what the big

1:26:59.320 --> 1:27:01.519
<v Speaker 2>A five size which is double you know, the big

1:27:01.600 --> 1:27:06.840
<v Speaker 2>the big size picture twenty eight twenty by sixteen, and

1:27:07.400 --> 1:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I had this blown up, had one hundred of them

1:27:09.040 --> 1:27:14.280
<v Speaker 2>blown up on hard card and put into a big

1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:16.559
<v Speaker 2>envelope and then I went made a record with them,

1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:20.320
<v Speaker 2>which is a silly song which I wrote myself. I

1:27:20.439 --> 1:27:22.519
<v Speaker 2>was ready, I was already taking everything. I actually got

1:27:22.560 --> 1:27:24.240
<v Speaker 2>some good people and I didn't. I did it myself,

1:27:24.320 --> 1:27:26.200
<v Speaker 2>wrote my song, wrote this on myself, got a good

1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:28.320
<v Speaker 2>arranger in made an arrangement of it, made a record

1:27:28.360 --> 1:27:31.280
<v Speaker 2>with them, and it had a sort of nice, noisy,

1:27:31.360 --> 1:27:34.760
<v Speaker 2>brassy effect. In fact, I pinched the baseline of get

1:27:34.840 --> 1:27:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Off My Cloud and put it onto Trombones and it

1:27:38.800 --> 1:27:43.040
<v Speaker 2>was a good bouncy record and went along to EM

1:27:43.080 --> 1:27:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I persuaded them to release it, and then I put

1:27:45.479 --> 1:27:49.240
<v Speaker 2>that record into an envelope with this huge photograph and

1:27:49.360 --> 1:27:52.640
<v Speaker 2>sent it to every DJ and producer and everybody in

1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:57.920
<v Speaker 2>the country who had a show anything. And records were

1:27:57.960 --> 1:28:00.840
<v Speaker 2>sold on television and not on radio shows. Radio didn't

1:28:00.840 --> 1:28:04.000
<v Speaker 2>play many records. There was Parrot radio, but the BBC

1:28:04.120 --> 1:28:09.120
<v Speaker 2>didn't play records, and so you dependent on television performances

1:28:09.520 --> 1:28:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and I knew because we had a postal service in

1:28:12.000 --> 1:28:14.880
<v Speaker 2>those days that at six o'clock the next morning, every

1:28:14.920 --> 1:28:16.559
<v Speaker 2>single one of those people I said it to would

1:28:16.560 --> 1:28:18.400
<v Speaker 2>get woken up by the post because it wouldn't go

1:28:18.479 --> 1:28:21.080
<v Speaker 2>through the postposts because the thing was too wide, and

1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:24.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, everyone to get woken up. Sorry, GUF wouldn't

1:28:24.000 --> 1:28:25.840
<v Speaker 2>go through the let's sorry to wake you up. But

1:28:26.080 --> 1:28:27.599
<v Speaker 2>that was it. They were going to get that, they're

1:28:27.600 --> 1:28:31.560
<v Speaker 2>going to look at it. And then I just behaved despicably.

1:28:31.840 --> 1:28:34.720
<v Speaker 2>I really was revolting. I called every one of them, so,

1:28:34.800 --> 1:28:37.280
<v Speaker 2>are you going to play the record? And they said no.

1:28:37.439 --> 1:28:39.760
<v Speaker 2>And of course there were hundreds of singles coming out

1:28:39.800 --> 1:28:42.120
<v Speaker 2>every week. There were new records every week, just the

1:28:42.240 --> 1:28:44.880
<v Speaker 2>major artists alone, that people are having hits, the stones

1:28:44.920 --> 1:28:47.920
<v Speaker 2>and people were enough records to fill every possible slot

1:28:48.000 --> 1:28:51.360
<v Speaker 2>in every TV show and airwave, and so they always

1:28:51.600 --> 1:28:54.360
<v Speaker 2>made their polite comments that I'm terribly sorry and love

1:28:54.400 --> 1:28:57.360
<v Speaker 2>the song beautiful picture I haven't got and I just said,

1:28:57.360 --> 1:28:59.920
<v Speaker 2>you're racious, isn't it? Because she's black and he's white,

1:29:00.840 --> 1:29:06.400
<v Speaker 2>and and most TV producers and DJs, we've got pretty

1:29:06.439 --> 1:29:08.400
<v Speaker 2>liberal people. And I doubt if you'd have found one

1:29:08.520 --> 1:29:11.559
<v Speaker 2>racist amongst the whole bunch of them. But so I said,

1:29:11.640 --> 1:29:15.240
<v Speaker 2>I was very pretty nasty, and they all denied they were,

1:29:15.280 --> 1:29:18.519
<v Speaker 2>and they all played it. We got five television shows

1:29:18.560 --> 1:29:21.600
<v Speaker 2>and it went in the charts, and that's where the

1:29:21.760 --> 1:29:23.639
<v Speaker 2>Arbor said, oh, we want this guy to managers.

1:29:25.200 --> 1:29:26.799
<v Speaker 1>How did it end with the yard Birds?

1:29:27.640 --> 1:29:33.439
<v Speaker 2>Not? Well, what happened is in America. After they'd done

1:29:33.840 --> 1:29:35.879
<v Speaker 2>the tour of the Rolling Stones, they went off to America,

1:29:36.800 --> 1:29:39.360
<v Speaker 2>Jeff and Jimmy began not to get on very well,

1:29:40.000 --> 1:29:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and Jeff left halfway through the tour, and and so

1:29:46.040 --> 1:29:48.840
<v Speaker 2>that left four piece group who totally capable of playing

1:29:48.880 --> 1:29:50.760
<v Speaker 2>all the music because they didn't really Jeff and Jimmy

1:29:50.760 --> 1:29:54.800
<v Speaker 2>are playing in And so we had a four piece group,

1:29:55.479 --> 1:30:01.479
<v Speaker 2>and Jimmy began to exert himself very much what he wanted,

1:30:01.640 --> 1:30:04.400
<v Speaker 2>how he wanted to be. He wanted to change the

1:30:04.439 --> 1:30:06.760
<v Speaker 2>name of the group. The new yard Birds didn't seem

1:30:06.760 --> 1:30:08.679
<v Speaker 2>to matter much. But I also couldn't release the point

1:30:08.680 --> 1:30:11.280
<v Speaker 2>of it, and he wanted to bring in different people,

1:30:12.240 --> 1:30:15.160
<v Speaker 2>and bit by bit I could see this was going

1:30:15.240 --> 1:30:19.639
<v Speaker 2>to be Jimmy's group. And I didn't really mind. I mean,

1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:23.000
<v Speaker 2>it was I'd done the stupid thing of getting rid

1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:26.200
<v Speaker 2>of the key person. Paul Sammlesworth may have only been

1:30:26.240 --> 1:30:28.880
<v Speaker 2>the best player, but he was the original person behind

1:30:28.960 --> 1:30:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the group, and once he'd gone, despite Jeff being a

1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:35.200
<v Speaker 2>wall of a guitarist, it was Paul who drove the group.

1:30:35.960 --> 1:30:37.960
<v Speaker 2>And I was so stupid, you know, that I'd let

1:30:38.080 --> 1:30:41.600
<v Speaker 2>him go and Jimmy was now the dominant person in

1:30:41.680 --> 1:30:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the group and it was going to be Jimmy's group,

1:30:45.320 --> 1:30:47.760
<v Speaker 2>And that was the way it went. I mean, I

1:30:47.920 --> 1:30:49.760
<v Speaker 2>just decided I didn't want to bother with it. It

1:30:49.920 --> 1:30:54.760
<v Speaker 2>was too much fighting and arguing, so so I went

1:30:54.840 --> 1:30:58.240
<v Speaker 2>along to Mickey Well. I discussed it, but it was

1:30:58.320 --> 1:31:00.360
<v Speaker 2>quite amicable because at the time I just got with them.

1:31:00.360 --> 1:31:02.280
<v Speaker 2>If I don't manage you, who's going to produce you?

1:31:02.320 --> 1:31:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Because I've been producing them as well. It's the other

1:31:05.400 --> 1:31:07.599
<v Speaker 2>thing i'd done when I started managing was I went

1:31:07.680 --> 1:31:09.680
<v Speaker 2>straight and produced their first album, and I didn't know

1:31:09.800 --> 1:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>much about that either, but I was lucky it turned

1:31:11.920 --> 1:31:14.559
<v Speaker 2>out turned out pretty good. But then they knew how

1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:18.479
<v Speaker 2>to produce themselves, so I said, well, at List, I

1:31:18.560 --> 1:31:20.439
<v Speaker 2>better get your producer, and they all thought Mickey most

1:31:20.439 --> 1:31:22.360
<v Speaker 2>would be a good idea because he produced the animals,

1:31:23.400 --> 1:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and Jimmy liked Mickey Most because Jimmy had made all

1:31:26.040 --> 1:31:28.760
<v Speaker 2>the Home and Silence records with him. So we went

1:31:28.880 --> 1:31:30.920
<v Speaker 2>up to see Mickey Most and Mickey said, yeah, he'd

1:31:31.000 --> 1:31:33.840
<v Speaker 2>like to produce the art buds. Who's going to balage you?

1:31:34.400 --> 1:31:36.280
<v Speaker 2>And I said, I'm quite happy to give it up

1:31:36.280 --> 1:31:39.000
<v Speaker 2>if you want someone else to manage them. And Nick's

1:31:39.640 --> 1:31:45.400
<v Speaker 2>business partner, well, I guess his protection was Peter Grant,

1:31:45.479 --> 1:31:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and he's well, Peter could do it, and so Peter

1:31:48.200 --> 1:31:53.320
<v Speaker 2>did it. And that's was Liz Zeppelin. So in terms

1:31:53.360 --> 1:31:56.360
<v Speaker 2>of managing the yard person the fact that they ceased

1:31:56.400 --> 1:31:57.920
<v Speaker 2>to exist at the end of my management, so I

1:31:58.000 --> 1:32:01.360
<v Speaker 2>was a failure. On the other hand, led Zeppelin wouldn't

1:32:01.360 --> 1:32:04.200
<v Speaker 2>have existed without this, so perhaps as a plus and

1:32:04.240 --> 1:32:06.880
<v Speaker 2>a minus there. And I kept Jeff Beck. I was

1:32:06.920 --> 1:32:10.920
<v Speaker 2>going to manage Jeff Beck and that went all right

1:32:10.960 --> 1:32:15.479
<v Speaker 2>for a bit, but that was difficult too because he

1:32:16.320 --> 1:32:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Jeff was not Jeff was never interested in the commercial

1:32:20.040 --> 1:32:22.200
<v Speaker 2>side of the music business. He just wanted to play

1:32:22.280 --> 1:32:26.160
<v Speaker 2>his guitar. And I like commerce, I like the Hols

1:32:26.200 --> 1:32:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and strap to the music bersins. I like the idea

1:32:27.960 --> 1:32:31.040
<v Speaker 2>of making a record and trying to make money and

1:32:31.200 --> 1:32:34.040
<v Speaker 2>promote it, making some of the just start and he hated.

1:32:34.520 --> 1:32:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Mickey also made his record High Host silver first single,

1:32:37.800 --> 1:32:40.000
<v Speaker 2>High Host silver Lining, which I thought was a brilliant record.

1:32:40.040 --> 1:32:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I still do today. I love the record, and Jeff

1:32:44.040 --> 1:32:47.760
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't sing it, So you think you have separated Jeff

1:32:47.760 --> 1:32:50.160
<v Speaker 2>from the group. We've got a hit record and Jeff

1:32:50.160 --> 1:32:53.760
<v Speaker 2>refused to perform it. These are very difficult people. Time

1:32:53.840 --> 1:32:57.120
<v Speaker 2>for life to get easier, so I moved on.

1:32:58.000 --> 1:33:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Okay, this is all happened subsequent to the breaking of

1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:06.560
<v Speaker 1>the Beatles. To what degree did the Beatles change the

1:33:06.760 --> 1:33:12.120
<v Speaker 1>music industry, life and attitudes in the UK? And to

1:33:12.240 --> 1:33:14.240
<v Speaker 1>what degree were you conscious.

1:33:13.800 --> 1:33:19.160
<v Speaker 2>Of that the Beatles created the music industry. The music

1:33:19.280 --> 1:33:23.840
<v Speaker 2>industry was a little a small business. Part of that,

1:33:24.479 --> 1:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>you know. You have to remember until nineteen fifty five,

1:33:27.560 --> 1:33:32.479
<v Speaker 2>the music industry thrives. It made us money selling sheep music,

1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:35.640
<v Speaker 2>not records, and the top ten every week was the

1:33:35.760 --> 1:33:39.559
<v Speaker 2>top ten best selling pieces of sheet music. The idea

1:33:39.720 --> 1:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>being you played them a home on the piano and

1:33:42.040 --> 1:33:46.200
<v Speaker 2>the lyrics you sang in the pub, and records were

1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:48.800
<v Speaker 2>secondary to that, and when rock and roll came along,

1:33:49.600 --> 1:33:53.639
<v Speaker 2>sheep music you couldn't make rock and roll playing sheep music.

1:33:53.800 --> 1:33:56.560
<v Speaker 2>And for the first time, records became more important. The

1:33:56.720 --> 1:33:59.720
<v Speaker 2>sound became of the record became more important than the song,

1:34:00.760 --> 1:34:04.439
<v Speaker 2>and so very quickly, within two years, the charts, both

1:34:04.479 --> 1:34:07.599
<v Speaker 2>in America and UK changed from being the top ten

1:34:07.680 --> 1:34:10.640
<v Speaker 2>pieces of sheep music to the top ten records. And

1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:14.000
<v Speaker 2>once the charts were the top ten records, the industry

1:34:14.120 --> 1:34:19.320
<v Speaker 2>completely changed because whereas previously, music publishers would try to

1:34:19.360 --> 1:34:22.200
<v Speaker 2>get as many people many recording artists as possible to

1:34:22.320 --> 1:34:24.519
<v Speaker 2>record their best songs so they had more and more

1:34:24.640 --> 1:34:27.400
<v Speaker 2>chances of selling the sheep music. Now when the chart

1:34:27.600 --> 1:34:31.360
<v Speaker 2>was the records, the publishers wanted only one person to

1:34:31.479 --> 1:34:34.400
<v Speaker 2>record each song because if there were two versions of it,

1:34:34.439 --> 1:34:37.040
<v Speaker 2>it would distill. It would diffuse the amount of records

1:34:37.080 --> 1:34:39.920
<v Speaker 2>being sold. Lets's like to get the chart. So the

1:34:40.120 --> 1:34:43.360
<v Speaker 2>artist became incredibly important. The great a good song was

1:34:43.400 --> 1:34:45.760
<v Speaker 2>taken to one artist, Will you record the song? Nobody

1:34:45.800 --> 1:34:49.760
<v Speaker 2>else can to record it, and that very quickly meant

1:34:49.840 --> 1:34:52.280
<v Speaker 2>that the artist was more important than the song. An

1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>artist who'd had a big hit with this last record

1:34:54.680 --> 1:34:56.800
<v Speaker 2>would probably get a hit with his next record, even

1:34:56.840 --> 1:34:59.679
<v Speaker 2>if it wasn't a very good song. And very quickly

1:35:00.360 --> 1:35:02.880
<v Speaker 2>you didn't say what songs number one this week? You

1:35:03.000 --> 1:35:07.120
<v Speaker 2>say who is number one this week? And who? Rather

1:35:07.240 --> 1:35:10.880
<v Speaker 2>than what was the moment the industry changed. So by

1:35:10.960 --> 1:35:14.600
<v Speaker 2>the time the sixties came along, who was at the

1:35:14.640 --> 1:35:17.280
<v Speaker 2>top of the charts was the most important question. So

1:35:17.439 --> 1:35:21.519
<v Speaker 2>when the Beatles broke and became so huge and had

1:35:21.600 --> 1:35:25.479
<v Speaker 2>so many hits, often at the same time their name,

1:35:25.800 --> 1:35:27.519
<v Speaker 2>it was not the songs which were talked about. Was

1:35:27.560 --> 1:35:29.960
<v Speaker 2>the Beatles, the Beatles, the Beatles, Who was the key question?

1:35:30.960 --> 1:35:36.200
<v Speaker 2>And them being so huge really meant that the business

1:35:36.240 --> 1:35:39.600
<v Speaker 2>shifted from being not just a sheet news business but

1:35:39.760 --> 1:35:42.560
<v Speaker 2>to being a record business, but a business where you

1:35:42.680 --> 1:35:46.519
<v Speaker 2>sold people. You know, Suddenly people the record industry understood

1:35:46.760 --> 1:35:49.120
<v Speaker 2>that it wasn't even selling It wasn't any sheep news,

1:35:49.200 --> 1:35:51.599
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't even sell any records. It was selling artists.

1:35:52.360 --> 1:35:54.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's never changed since then. The record business is

1:35:54.840 --> 1:35:58.160
<v Speaker 2>about it's an artist business. It's a hit record hit

1:35:58.320 --> 1:36:02.519
<v Speaker 2>artist driven, But record business companies are about artists. Many

1:36:02.600 --> 1:36:05.320
<v Speaker 2>record companies won't even take a one off hit record anymore.

1:36:05.320 --> 1:36:07.280
<v Speaker 2>If they think you're going to one off hit, there's

1:36:07.280 --> 1:36:09.599
<v Speaker 2>nothing to support it in terms of artists. To stop

1:36:09.640 --> 1:36:11.960
<v Speaker 2>worth spending the money promoting it and making it a hit,

1:36:12.080 --> 1:36:15.840
<v Speaker 2>you haven't got something to continue with afterwards. So the

1:36:15.920 --> 1:36:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Beatles were there at that moment, but there were five

1:36:20.720 --> 1:36:23.479
<v Speaker 2>other groups waiting in the wings. You know, something had happened.

1:36:23.520 --> 1:36:25.880
<v Speaker 2>In ninety fifty five there was a record by a

1:36:25.960 --> 1:36:28.560
<v Speaker 2>guy called Nonnie Dolligan called Rock Island Line, which was

1:36:28.920 --> 1:36:32.880
<v Speaker 2>by a skiffle group. A skiffle group was the trad

1:36:32.960 --> 1:36:35.400
<v Speaker 2>jazz bands I mentioned earlier in the intervals. They had

1:36:35.439 --> 1:36:37.439
<v Speaker 2>to have intervals because they blew their lips out in

1:36:37.560 --> 1:36:41.240
<v Speaker 2>forty minutes of playing. So they waved their rhythm sections

1:36:41.280 --> 1:36:43.759
<v Speaker 2>forward and told the rootin section to sing a few songs.

1:36:44.479 --> 1:36:46.679
<v Speaker 2>And the songs they'd sing, because there were New Orleans

1:36:46.760 --> 1:36:49.240
<v Speaker 2>jazz bands, would be New Orleans songs that they sing,

1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:52.280
<v Speaker 2>the songs of Lead Belly and Big Bill brunsee the

1:36:52.360 --> 1:36:55.679
<v Speaker 2>Southern black blues songs. And they call these interval groups

1:36:55.720 --> 1:36:59.719
<v Speaker 2>skiffle groups, and one of them eventually had a hit record.

1:37:00.400 --> 1:37:03.759
<v Speaker 2>And whereas rock and roll from America, kids in England

1:37:03.880 --> 1:37:06.320
<v Speaker 2>like rock and roll, it was like movies. You liked

1:37:06.320 --> 1:37:08.320
<v Speaker 2>a good movie, you saw it, you listened to it,

1:37:09.040 --> 1:37:10.880
<v Speaker 2>but you didn't dispi to it. You didn't think you

1:37:10.960 --> 1:37:13.120
<v Speaker 2>could become that. It was too American, and it was

1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:16.400
<v Speaker 2>too produced, it was too wound up with a huge industry.

1:37:16.880 --> 1:37:20.360
<v Speaker 2>But skiffle was different. Skiffull was just a banjo player

1:37:20.400 --> 1:37:23.400
<v Speaker 2>who played acoustic guitar for the record, and a double

1:37:23.439 --> 1:37:26.599
<v Speaker 2>bass player and somebody banging on a washboard, just one

1:37:26.600 --> 1:37:28.920
<v Speaker 2>of those boards your women used to scrub their clothes

1:37:29.080 --> 1:37:33.360
<v Speaker 2>before washing machines. And when that became a hit, every

1:37:33.439 --> 1:37:35.920
<v Speaker 2>teenager in Ingland wanted to do the same thing. Everyone.

1:37:36.479 --> 1:37:39.240
<v Speaker 2>It was extraordinary. There was a moment of empowerment for

1:37:39.360 --> 1:37:42.360
<v Speaker 2>British teenagers because they had a very drab life. For

1:37:42.479 --> 1:37:44.280
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned that it was rationing and you couldn't get

1:37:44.439 --> 1:37:47.360
<v Speaker 2>chocolates if you wanted it. There was no teenage fashion,

1:37:47.479 --> 1:37:50.519
<v Speaker 2>there was no love of popular music. But suddenly here

1:37:50.680 --> 1:37:54.240
<v Speaker 2>was a British guy who couldn't sing very well. Singing

1:37:54.320 --> 1:37:58.040
<v Speaker 2>with virtually grew. Anyone could form a skiffle group. If

1:37:58.040 --> 1:38:00.599
<v Speaker 2>you could find a guitar, You could make a double

1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:03.840
<v Speaker 2>bass by shoving a broomstick and a box and putting

1:38:03.840 --> 1:38:06.000
<v Speaker 2>a nail on either end and putting one string on

1:38:06.120 --> 1:38:09.479
<v Speaker 2>it and plucking it. You can borry your mother's washboards.

1:38:09.479 --> 1:38:12.680
<v Speaker 2>You had a skiffle group. It was estimated. Within a

1:38:12.800 --> 1:38:14.880
<v Speaker 2>year of that record, it was estimated there were fifty

1:38:15.000 --> 1:38:18.679
<v Speaker 2>thousand teenage skiffle groups in England, and the year before

1:38:19.680 --> 1:38:23.200
<v Speaker 2>that record came out, only five thousand acoustic guitars were

1:38:23.200 --> 1:38:25.400
<v Speaker 2>sold in England and the year after two hundred and

1:38:25.479 --> 1:38:32.080
<v Speaker 2>fifty thousand, five thousand sat increase. And all these posicians

1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:35.040
<v Speaker 2>who later became famous, whether it was where it was

1:38:35.120 --> 1:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Rick Waitman and John or Jimmy Page or Eric Clapton,

1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:44.479
<v Speaker 2>every one of them started at thirteen fourteen years old

1:38:44.560 --> 1:38:48.520
<v Speaker 2>in akroup. The Beatles were the first. When Paul McCartney

1:38:48.640 --> 1:38:53.120
<v Speaker 2>joined John John already had a skiffle group and that's

1:38:53.200 --> 1:38:55.320
<v Speaker 2>what they called. And a skiffle group was pretty much

1:38:55.840 --> 1:38:58.280
<v Speaker 2>anybody who could play anything or had an instrument, you

1:38:58.320 --> 1:39:02.360
<v Speaker 2>can join great. They were just pick up groups of

1:39:02.880 --> 1:39:06.519
<v Speaker 2>fourteen fifteen run kids playing whatever they had. And by

1:39:06.600 --> 1:39:09.040
<v Speaker 2>the time the Beatles happened, the best of these groups

1:39:09.080 --> 1:39:11.040
<v Speaker 2>have been together for four or five years and they

1:39:11.240 --> 1:39:12.880
<v Speaker 2>some of them made some money and they swapped their

1:39:13.000 --> 1:39:15.960
<v Speaker 2>washboard for drum kits, and their homemade bass guitar for

1:39:16.000 --> 1:39:20.599
<v Speaker 2>an electric for electric bass, acoustic guitar for electric guitar,

1:39:21.400 --> 1:39:25.759
<v Speaker 2>and they music had morphed from country, southern black blues

1:39:25.800 --> 1:39:28.280
<v Speaker 2>to rhythm and blues, and so by the time you

1:39:28.400 --> 1:39:32.479
<v Speaker 2>got to nineteen fifty eight fifty nine sixty, rhythm was

1:39:32.520 --> 1:39:36.400
<v Speaker 2>a wash with incredibly good rhythm and blues groups, I mean,

1:39:36.600 --> 1:39:40.559
<v Speaker 2>playing absolutely as good as American groups, the difference being

1:39:41.240 --> 1:39:47.360
<v Speaker 2>instead of Black American cast you know, cast away from

1:39:47.439 --> 1:39:52.240
<v Speaker 2>society Black Americans, these were teenagers, were white post war

1:39:52.320 --> 1:39:56.679
<v Speaker 2>British teenagers. They were singing American songs. They weren't writing

1:39:56.680 --> 1:39:59.959
<v Speaker 2>their own. But lyrics made something different. With Eric Burdens

1:40:00.200 --> 1:40:02.680
<v Speaker 2>with the animals saying I'm a man, you know, he

1:40:02.800 --> 1:40:05.040
<v Speaker 2>didn't mean you know, I'm maybe black, but I'm still

1:40:05.040 --> 1:40:07.320
<v Speaker 2>a human being. He meant I'm eighteen and I'm horny.

1:40:07.439 --> 1:40:10.439
<v Speaker 2>You know that all the lyrics were given new meanings

1:40:10.520 --> 1:40:13.320
<v Speaker 2>just by different people singing them. And then they started

1:40:13.360 --> 1:40:16.240
<v Speaker 2>writing their own songs. And when they started writing their

1:40:16.240 --> 1:40:18.600
<v Speaker 2>own songs, that was when rock music started. That was

1:40:18.640 --> 1:40:20.680
<v Speaker 2>the beginning of rock music. You know, rock music is

1:40:20.680 --> 1:40:23.639
<v Speaker 2>a totally English thing. It didn't come from America. Rock

1:40:23.720 --> 1:40:26.040
<v Speaker 2>music came from America in the sense it was the

1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:29.040
<v Speaker 2>influence of rhythm and blues and black music, but it

1:40:29.120 --> 1:40:32.200
<v Speaker 2>was British teenagers that turned it into rock music. And

1:40:32.280 --> 1:40:34.559
<v Speaker 2>the Beatles were the first of those groups. But when

1:40:34.600 --> 1:40:38.120
<v Speaker 2>they happened in America wanted more. They were waiting them,

1:40:38.160 --> 1:40:41.080
<v Speaker 2>and there was the Rolling Stones and the Animals and

1:40:41.120 --> 1:40:45.599
<v Speaker 2>the Yards and Manfred Mann who drugs and the Kinks

1:40:46.160 --> 1:40:50.760
<v Speaker 2>just waited all ivn't ready five years of plain to go.

1:40:52.240 --> 1:40:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, going back to the lyrics for you Don't Have

1:40:55.479 --> 1:40:59.599
<v Speaker 1>to Say You Love Me and producing the first Yard

1:40:59.680 --> 1:41:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Brewers album, those generate royalties, did you get paid? And

1:41:06.120 --> 1:41:08.080
<v Speaker 1>where are those royalties today?

1:41:09.560 --> 1:41:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Well they've long been eaten and splashed away, is what

1:41:13.880 --> 1:41:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I do? Do you? No?

1:41:15.560 --> 1:41:20.280
<v Speaker 1>My question is do you still own those interests? No?

1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Actually, Vicky and I sold our share to BMG about

1:41:24.720 --> 1:41:27.679
<v Speaker 2>seven or eight years ago, as people are doing these days.

1:41:28.840 --> 1:41:32.320
<v Speaker 2>But yes, Look it was a lousy deal because that

1:41:32.520 --> 1:41:34.960
<v Speaker 2>deals were lousy in those days. So the deal we

1:41:35.160 --> 1:41:39.120
<v Speaker 2>got was twelve and a half. The British publisher paid

1:41:39.200 --> 1:41:43.680
<v Speaker 2>us twelve and a half percent of their income the

1:41:44.240 --> 1:41:46.840
<v Speaker 2>song was published in Italy, they made a deal fifty

1:41:46.840 --> 1:41:48.920
<v Speaker 2>to fifty with the British publisher. The British public goers

1:41:48.960 --> 1:41:50.519
<v Speaker 2>twelve and a half percent of work they get, so

1:41:50.560 --> 1:41:52.320
<v Speaker 2>we got twelve and a half cent to fifty to fifty.

1:41:52.840 --> 1:41:54.760
<v Speaker 2>That was the normal deal in that says and then

1:41:54.840 --> 1:41:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Bricky and I split that twelve and a half percent

1:41:57.360 --> 1:41:59.360
<v Speaker 2>and then that never got changed. I mean, that was

1:41:59.439 --> 1:42:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the deal went around the world. It was still quite

1:42:02.960 --> 1:42:04.479
<v Speaker 2>a lot of money. I mean, it was nice money

1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:07.840
<v Speaker 2>to have coming in every month. On the good side,

1:42:08.040 --> 1:42:11.240
<v Speaker 2>it never changed and it's still paid. On the bad

1:42:11.360 --> 1:42:14.559
<v Speaker 2>side today we'd got four times as much money. Every

1:42:14.720 --> 1:42:17.600
<v Speaker 2>time you Don't Have to Say You Love Me was

1:42:17.720 --> 1:42:20.840
<v Speaker 2>sung in English anywhere in the world. The writer of

1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:23.400
<v Speaker 2>the Italian lyric got twice as much money as we

1:42:23.560 --> 1:42:28.000
<v Speaker 2>did for the lyrics just being sung. So that's how

1:42:28.080 --> 1:42:32.880
<v Speaker 2>these things go. But about ten years ago we sold

1:42:33.000 --> 1:42:35.479
<v Speaker 2>our share to EMI. And you know when you read

1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:38.360
<v Speaker 2>about people selling their catalogs, and every week we read

1:42:38.360 --> 1:42:40.880
<v Speaker 2>it SOMEDI are selling a catalog and they said they

1:42:41.040 --> 1:42:44.080
<v Speaker 2>sold their rights. They're not selling their rights. Their rights

1:42:44.120 --> 1:42:47.720
<v Speaker 2>are already with the publishing companies who rouginally signed them.

1:42:48.040 --> 1:42:50.400
<v Speaker 2>What they're selling is their flow of income, the flow

1:42:50.479 --> 1:42:53.640
<v Speaker 2>of the writer's income, the income they get from the

1:42:53.680 --> 1:42:57.000
<v Speaker 2>publisher for the writer's ship. That's what they sell, and

1:42:57.600 --> 1:43:00.439
<v Speaker 2>then thereafter the publisher doesn't have to pay money income.

1:43:01.800 --> 1:43:03.439
<v Speaker 2>And we sold that. We did quite a good deal

1:43:03.479 --> 1:43:07.439
<v Speaker 2>for it, about what it was worth we at the time.

1:43:08.320 --> 1:43:10.280
<v Speaker 2>For what we got, i'd said we'd have to live

1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:13.400
<v Speaker 2>another twelve years to regret it. We've got as much

1:43:13.400 --> 1:43:15.599
<v Speaker 2>as we'd definitly get in twelve years after that we'd

1:43:15.600 --> 1:43:18.120
<v Speaker 2>wish we hadn't sold it. Well, we've both lived another

1:43:18.160 --> 1:43:21.120
<v Speaker 2>twelve years, so hopefully we'll die soon and then we

1:43:21.160 --> 1:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>won't have to regret it.

1:43:22.960 --> 1:43:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Was it BMG or EMI?

1:43:24.560 --> 1:43:24.920
<v Speaker 2>BMG?

1:43:26.160 --> 1:43:32.240
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how did you ultimately get involved with WIAM?

1:43:33.720 --> 1:43:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Ultimately? Uh, WHAM came after Japan. I'd spent seven years

1:43:40.960 --> 1:43:45.360
<v Speaker 2>managing Japan, taking them from completely impossible to get a

1:43:45.400 --> 1:43:48.960
<v Speaker 2>deal with to probably being the most influential important group

1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:53.719
<v Speaker 2>in rock in Europe for British and Europe, not America.

1:43:55.240 --> 1:43:58.880
<v Speaker 2>And then they broke up and I thought, as enough,

1:43:59.040 --> 1:44:00.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I really want to do much more.

1:44:02.000 --> 1:44:03.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't want to manage the other group.

1:44:03.800 --> 1:44:05.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's time to write books. I'm get to go

1:44:05.880 --> 1:44:08.800
<v Speaker 2>to Asia and write books. And before I could go,

1:44:09.040 --> 1:44:10.720
<v Speaker 2>I was a knock on the door and a guy

1:44:10.880 --> 1:44:15.599
<v Speaker 2>called Jazz Summers, who was also a manager was there.

1:44:15.920 --> 1:44:19.880
<v Speaker 2>And still somebody suggested I come and see you, and

1:44:20.280 --> 1:44:22.800
<v Speaker 2>I think we get on well and we ought to

1:44:23.000 --> 1:44:25.679
<v Speaker 2>manage together. He had had a group called Blue Zoo,

1:44:25.840 --> 1:44:28.800
<v Speaker 2>not not big by Japan, but they'd had number one

1:44:28.880 --> 1:44:30.439
<v Speaker 2>record and they've broken up and he was a bit

1:44:30.840 --> 1:44:33.320
<v Speaker 2>pissed off with that. So we had something in common there,

1:44:33.720 --> 1:44:36.880
<v Speaker 2>but I immediately didn't get on with And this is

1:44:36.920 --> 1:44:39.240
<v Speaker 2>a guy who was not on my wavelength, you know

1:44:39.320 --> 1:44:45.599
<v Speaker 2>he was. He was very aggressive, very confrontational. He spoke

1:44:45.880 --> 1:44:49.720
<v Speaker 2>deliberately down market, so he sounded pretty you know in

1:44:49.840 --> 1:44:53.120
<v Speaker 2>London and rough Later on I found that was part

1:44:53.160 --> 1:44:57.880
<v Speaker 2>of an act from him. But someone had a friend

1:44:57.920 --> 1:44:59.840
<v Speaker 2>of mutual friend that suggested he come and see me

1:44:59.880 --> 1:45:02.040
<v Speaker 2>in I thought we just to beliked to our mutual friend.

1:45:02.120 --> 1:45:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Let's try, so I said, let's go and have lunch.

1:45:05.720 --> 1:45:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I went around the road to the corners, the local

1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Chinese restaurant, and then halfway through lunch, I found he

1:45:12.400 --> 1:45:15.840
<v Speaker 2>could speak Chinese, so I thought, well, okay, he's not

1:45:16.160 --> 1:45:18.439
<v Speaker 2>not quite the person I thought he wants already knocked

1:45:18.479 --> 1:45:23.479
<v Speaker 2>on the door. Cantonies and his father had been in

1:45:23.560 --> 1:45:26.120
<v Speaker 2>the army, so he was brought up in an army background,

1:45:26.800 --> 1:45:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and they'd lived in Hong Kong when he was a kid.

1:45:30.800 --> 1:45:38.759
<v Speaker 2>Learned Cantonese, and he was a pretty clever, knowledgeable, thoughtful,

1:45:39.000 --> 1:45:41.920
<v Speaker 2>well read guy and didn't really have to speak the

1:45:41.960 --> 1:45:44.439
<v Speaker 2>way he spoke. It was sort of like a defense

1:45:44.520 --> 1:45:47.519
<v Speaker 2>in a tough world, you know. And we became incredibly

1:45:47.560 --> 1:45:51.439
<v Speaker 2>good friends. I'm in extraordinary good friends, and really learned

1:45:51.520 --> 1:45:57.120
<v Speaker 2>to work together in a clever way because I'm really

1:45:57.240 --> 1:45:59.880
<v Speaker 2>somebody who have voiced confrontation will always find a way

1:45:59.880 --> 1:46:03.160
<v Speaker 2>to solve a problem and be diplomatic, and he is

1:46:03.200 --> 1:46:05.320
<v Speaker 2>a person who can't stand that waste of time. And

1:46:05.439 --> 1:46:08.360
<v Speaker 2>so we learned when to use each other to solve problems,

1:46:09.000 --> 1:46:09.719
<v Speaker 2>which was needed.

1:46:09.760 --> 1:46:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Jazz, who I did not know, talk to a

1:46:13.840 --> 1:46:18.680
<v Speaker 1>bit whatever, did not have a good reputation. Jazz is

1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:21.480
<v Speaker 1>six feet under. I don't know whether they was cremated

1:46:21.640 --> 1:46:22.120
<v Speaker 1>or buried.

1:46:22.800 --> 1:46:27.920
<v Speaker 2>What was the real story there, Jazz, Yeah, there's a

1:46:27.920 --> 1:46:33.320
<v Speaker 2>real story. His dad was tough, rerigically tough. His dad.

1:46:34.520 --> 1:46:37.280
<v Speaker 2>One day, Jazz was coming home from school when he

1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:42.080
<v Speaker 2>was six years old, and two guys, older boys forty

1:46:42.080 --> 1:46:45.000
<v Speaker 2>eight year old, came up to him with a bit

1:46:45.040 --> 1:46:47.280
<v Speaker 2>of trained partner started hitting him and beating him up,

1:46:47.760 --> 1:46:51.080
<v Speaker 2>and just at that moment, his dad cycled by in

1:46:51.160 --> 1:46:54.479
<v Speaker 2>his bicycle. He broke off from the army at four

1:46:54.479 --> 1:46:57.559
<v Speaker 2>o'clock after he just came back. Just happened to see

1:46:57.600 --> 1:47:01.479
<v Speaker 2>that moment. And at the moment he came by, Jazz

1:47:01.600 --> 1:47:04.519
<v Speaker 2>was running away from two boys and crying, and his

1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:09.800
<v Speaker 2>father hit Jazz for running away and crying and then

1:47:10.000 --> 1:47:12.120
<v Speaker 2>tied him too his bike and made him run home

1:47:12.200 --> 1:47:15.519
<v Speaker 2>behind his bike for a punishment for not fighting the

1:47:15.600 --> 1:47:19.320
<v Speaker 2>two boys. Now you can you can imagine that creates

1:47:19.400 --> 1:47:24.439
<v Speaker 2>quite a that creates quite a tough child. And so

1:47:25.040 --> 1:47:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Jazz spent his life being extremely aggressive. But he achieved

1:47:30.240 --> 1:47:33.839
<v Speaker 2>a lot of things by being aggressive. And for instance,

1:47:35.360 --> 1:47:37.280
<v Speaker 2>you're going to jump forwards, I'm going to jump forwards,

1:47:37.320 --> 1:47:39.519
<v Speaker 2>but you can go through it in a minute. After

1:47:40.160 --> 1:47:43.040
<v Speaker 2>WAM played in China and we managed to pull off

1:47:43.160 --> 1:47:46.280
<v Speaker 2>what we could. Whole purpose of WAM playing in China

1:47:46.720 --> 1:47:49.120
<v Speaker 2>was to jump the forwards and get them into stadium

1:47:49.160 --> 1:47:52.080
<v Speaker 2>tours without waiting any longer. And everyone in America said

1:47:52.200 --> 1:47:55.599
<v Speaker 2>they're not ready for stadium tours. And we were signed

1:47:55.640 --> 1:47:59.519
<v Speaker 2>with Frank Barcelona, and Frank Barcelona said no, you're not

1:47:59.600 --> 1:48:02.040
<v Speaker 2>ready for tours, and Jazz did, yes, we are, this

1:48:02.240 --> 1:48:05.240
<v Speaker 2>is what I want you to book. And Frank said, well,

1:48:05.240 --> 1:48:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to and Jazz, well, we're walking away

1:48:08.040 --> 1:48:09.679
<v Speaker 2>from you. I don't care if we've got a sign contract.

1:48:09.720 --> 1:48:11.240
<v Speaker 2>If you won't do what we want, why not with you?

1:48:12.080 --> 1:48:14.040
<v Speaker 2>And Frank's did you can't to Jazz that I can,

1:48:14.160 --> 1:48:17.759
<v Speaker 2>and he did so Jazz walked away, went to another

1:48:18.240 --> 1:48:20.600
<v Speaker 2>promoter and when he tried to book stadium tours, he

1:48:20.640 --> 1:48:23.519
<v Speaker 2>find that Frank had booked every single stadium for three

1:48:23.560 --> 1:48:26.639
<v Speaker 2>months ahead. Every stadium American He just put deposits down

1:48:26.880 --> 1:48:29.240
<v Speaker 2>and made there were no stadiums anywhere in America.

1:48:29.960 --> 1:48:30.040
<v Speaker 3>And.

1:48:31.520 --> 1:48:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Jazz got round there. He went to people who had alternatives.

1:48:36.600 --> 1:48:41.200
<v Speaker 2>We paid la race course. Phil Graham didn't like Frank Barcelona,

1:48:41.320 --> 1:48:43.880
<v Speaker 2>so he put us enter the venues. He had a

1:48:43.960 --> 1:48:47.439
<v Speaker 2>bit by bit, Jazz got round that I couldn't have

1:48:47.479 --> 1:48:49.439
<v Speaker 2>done that, you know, I'm a compromise, right. I just

1:48:49.479 --> 1:48:51.320
<v Speaker 2>sat down with Frank and said, well, maybe we'll wait

1:48:51.360 --> 1:48:54.479
<v Speaker 2>another year. And that probably would have lost with the

1:48:54.520 --> 1:48:57.680
<v Speaker 2>group because George and Andrew were very definite. After we

1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:01.519
<v Speaker 2>played China, we're doing stadium tours a great value to Jazz.

1:49:02.400 --> 1:49:05.040
<v Speaker 2>But my god, he could be an angry man, but

1:49:05.720 --> 1:49:07.680
<v Speaker 2>a good angry man. There was a great story when

1:49:07.680 --> 1:49:11.080
<v Speaker 2>he went to EMI one day, this is just after

1:49:11.160 --> 1:49:14.240
<v Speaker 2>we finished Manager, when he went to EMI to see

1:49:14.960 --> 1:49:17.320
<v Speaker 2>the new head of a A and R of one

1:49:17.360 --> 1:49:20.639
<v Speaker 2>of the divisions. And when he went in, the guy

1:49:20.680 --> 1:49:23.720
<v Speaker 2>and and I were sitting behind the desk, and he said, grumbling.

1:49:24.360 --> 1:49:27.679
<v Speaker 2>He said to Jazz, he said, this business is getting

1:49:27.760 --> 1:49:34.320
<v Speaker 2>taken over by quairs. And jazz leapt up in a fury,

1:49:34.880 --> 1:49:37.920
<v Speaker 2>grabbed the guy by his lapels, smashed him against the

1:49:38.000 --> 1:49:42.439
<v Speaker 2>wall and shouted, well, my wife's and my partner's are queer.

1:49:43.320 --> 1:49:45.920
<v Speaker 2>And he pushed him in a cupboard, slammed the door shut,

1:49:46.040 --> 1:49:47.559
<v Speaker 2>locked it, and threw the key out of the window

1:49:47.560 --> 1:49:51.120
<v Speaker 2>as the third floor window. I like that story. The

1:49:51.160 --> 1:49:53.679
<v Speaker 2>guy who's found forteen hours later by the cleaning pagers

1:49:54.400 --> 1:49:57.960
<v Speaker 2>very well soiled. So that's a good side of jazz

1:49:58.120 --> 1:49:58.560
<v Speaker 2>I like that.

1:50:06.680 --> 1:50:09.519
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how did you get and how did you lose? Wham?

1:50:10.439 --> 1:50:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, we got Wam by going after them. We got

1:50:13.600 --> 1:50:17.519
<v Speaker 2>Wham by we After this lunch, we sat down and talked.

1:50:17.560 --> 1:50:19.400
<v Speaker 2>We made a list of groups we'd like to manage.

1:50:19.880 --> 1:50:22.040
<v Speaker 2>We did not want to go look for new groups.

1:50:22.080 --> 1:50:24.360
<v Speaker 2>There was a waste of two years of your life

1:50:25.280 --> 1:50:27.840
<v Speaker 2>for stunning new groups, trying to break them, failing to

1:50:27.880 --> 1:50:30.559
<v Speaker 2>get another one. We wanted a group who already had

1:50:31.000 --> 1:50:35.400
<v Speaker 2>a hit or two and whom we could then take

1:50:35.680 --> 1:50:39.040
<v Speaker 2>to real megastartum. And we made quite a good list.

1:50:39.120 --> 1:50:41.960
<v Speaker 2>There was a Culture Club, and there was the Rhythmics.

1:50:42.720 --> 1:50:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Three or four groups who were about at that level,

1:50:45.320 --> 1:50:47.760
<v Speaker 2>and one was Wham. And when we looked at the list,

1:50:47.840 --> 1:50:50.720
<v Speaker 2>we both knew Whams the one we both seen them

1:50:50.760 --> 1:50:52.720
<v Speaker 2>on Top of the Pops. We've seen their first Top

1:50:52.760 --> 1:50:56.719
<v Speaker 2>of the Pops. It was extraordinary performance, really brilliant performance

1:50:57.560 --> 1:51:00.280
<v Speaker 2>and quite out of the ordinary. This wonderful living, this

1:51:00.360 --> 1:51:03.120
<v Speaker 2>sort of you know, the two young lads around town

1:51:03.200 --> 1:51:05.960
<v Speaker 2>that Starsky in half Gymmetry the Romance Review call it,

1:51:06.760 --> 1:51:10.040
<v Speaker 2>and such slickness. And they knew how to work to

1:51:10.120 --> 1:51:11.760
<v Speaker 2>camera and a wage this is the first time they've

1:51:11.760 --> 1:51:13.640
<v Speaker 2>ever been on television. They look like they've been doing

1:51:13.680 --> 1:51:16.720
<v Speaker 2>it every week for the lads, and so he said,

1:51:16.760 --> 1:51:20.040
<v Speaker 2>let's chase after them. And we knew the publishers, Morrison Lee.

1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:23.320
<v Speaker 2>He went to see them, and they thought we'd be

1:51:23.400 --> 1:51:27.240
<v Speaker 2>a good idea. They knew Jazz, they knew his aggressiveness,

1:51:27.320 --> 1:51:30.439
<v Speaker 2>his absolutely desire not to fail, and he took on.

1:51:31.160 --> 1:51:35.760
<v Speaker 2>They knew me from my reputation, particularly with Japan. Sudden

1:51:35.760 --> 1:51:39.280
<v Speaker 2>the introducers to the group, and it was very interesting

1:51:39.320 --> 1:51:43.000
<v Speaker 2>because it's true when you saw WAM on television on

1:51:43.600 --> 1:51:46.719
<v Speaker 2>top of the Pops, they looked like a couple of twins.

1:51:46.880 --> 1:51:50.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't mean they looked physically alike, but they were

1:51:50.600 --> 1:51:52.760
<v Speaker 2>these two, you know, they were the lads around town.

1:51:52.800 --> 1:51:55.400
<v Speaker 2>They were out the club, the two club, two young clubbers,

1:51:55.439 --> 1:51:59.479
<v Speaker 2>best friends. And when they came in the apartment, came

1:51:59.479 --> 1:52:01.880
<v Speaker 2>into my part, they were the absolutely opposite of each other.

1:52:01.960 --> 1:52:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean they were not like that. Andrew was like that.

1:52:06.320 --> 1:52:09.320
<v Speaker 2>That image was Andrew. Andrew was the image for both

1:52:09.320 --> 1:52:12.439
<v Speaker 2>of them. George is absolutely not he He came in,

1:52:12.560 --> 1:52:14.360
<v Speaker 2>and Andrew came in and he said down. He put

1:52:14.400 --> 1:52:16.680
<v Speaker 2>his feet up on my coffee table and picked up

1:52:16.720 --> 1:52:19.920
<v Speaker 2>a book on the I've written my first first book,

1:52:19.960 --> 1:52:22.080
<v Speaker 2>I wrote. He was reading a bit, said, oh, George

1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:24.240
<v Speaker 2>is Simon. Look at this. Simon was drunk and has

1:52:24.280 --> 1:52:26.599
<v Speaker 2>sex all through the sixties. That's the guy we want,

1:52:26.640 --> 1:52:29.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, we want something like that. George is sitting

1:52:29.320 --> 1:52:32.799
<v Speaker 2>in a very uptight I want to know who you've managed,

1:52:32.800 --> 1:52:36.160
<v Speaker 2>what you've done, what you would do with us. He said,

1:52:36.160 --> 1:52:38.000
<v Speaker 2>you've got to We've got to have the best accountants.

1:52:38.920 --> 1:52:40.920
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, of course you get the best,

1:52:41.000 --> 1:52:43.320
<v Speaker 2>and we want two lots of accountants. And I said,

1:52:43.320 --> 1:52:44.800
<v Speaker 2>what's the other lot for? What to keep an eye

1:52:44.800 --> 1:52:46.599
<v Speaker 2>on the first lot. I mean, he was a very

1:52:46.800 --> 1:52:52.240
<v Speaker 2>very cautious, untrusted, untrusting person, and I could see it

1:52:52.320 --> 1:52:55.719
<v Speaker 2>once he really had come from exactly the background talking

1:52:55.760 --> 1:53:01.200
<v Speaker 2>about an artist who has not trusted adults. He's had

1:53:01.240 --> 1:53:07.320
<v Speaker 2>a he has had in his childhood, definitely not the

1:53:07.680 --> 1:53:12.240
<v Speaker 2>costages surrounding which Andrew had had. It was a totally relaxed,

1:53:12.240 --> 1:53:15.600
<v Speaker 2>easy going, charming gun. But that was excellent. What a

1:53:15.640 --> 1:53:18.479
<v Speaker 2>great combination. I mean, Andrew who could provide this image

1:53:18.479 --> 1:53:22.120
<v Speaker 2>and this charm and George was so different A bit

1:53:22.200 --> 1:53:24.080
<v Speaker 2>like Chas Night. You know, it was very, very different

1:53:24.120 --> 1:53:29.000
<v Speaker 2>from each So we took them on and George said,

1:53:29.920 --> 1:53:32.639
<v Speaker 2>we went to dinner and George said the first night,

1:53:32.720 --> 1:53:34.760
<v Speaker 2>at the first dinner, were you're going to be the

1:53:34.800 --> 1:53:36.559
<v Speaker 2>biggest group in the world, and you've got one year.

1:53:38.640 --> 1:53:40.519
<v Speaker 2>I just laughed. I said, the biggest group in the

1:53:40.560 --> 1:53:43.519
<v Speaker 2>world has to be the biggest group in America, because

1:53:43.520 --> 1:53:47.599
<v Speaker 2>it's sixty percent of the world market. And no British

1:53:47.640 --> 1:53:50.000
<v Speaker 2>group's ever broken in America under three or four years.

1:53:50.040 --> 1:53:53.840
<v Speaker 2>Even the Beatles took three or four years. That's completely impossible.

1:53:54.640 --> 1:53:57.759
<v Speaker 2>MTV was just starting, but there was no national press,

1:53:57.880 --> 1:54:00.760
<v Speaker 2>there was no leak without a MPY. Prior to that,

1:54:00.840 --> 1:54:02.680
<v Speaker 2>there was no national word from merging group. It had

1:54:02.720 --> 1:54:06.240
<v Speaker 2>to be done piece, region by region. I'd done it

1:54:06.320 --> 1:54:09.599
<v Speaker 2>before the yardburs. It took time, and George so we'll

1:54:09.600 --> 1:54:13.160
<v Speaker 2>take it or leave it one year or don't manage us.

1:54:13.680 --> 1:54:15.680
<v Speaker 2>So of course we say, yeah, okay, one year. And

1:54:15.800 --> 1:54:19.720
<v Speaker 2>then as the dinner went on, Jazz or somebody had

1:54:19.760 --> 1:54:22.479
<v Speaker 2>the idea, why not make you the first group ever

1:54:22.600 --> 1:54:24.840
<v Speaker 2>to play in communist China, the first Western pop group

1:54:24.960 --> 1:54:27.160
<v Speaker 2>ever to play in communist China, and George like that.

1:54:27.320 --> 1:54:31.960
<v Speaker 2>He said, yeah, do that okay, great, fantastic settled and

1:54:33.680 --> 1:54:37.000
<v Speaker 2>that was it. And then two weeks later I was

1:54:37.120 --> 1:54:42.520
<v Speaker 2>in Beijing, sitting in a seedy hotel having just getting it.

1:54:42.640 --> 1:54:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Was amazing because you couldn't get visa for China in

1:54:44.760 --> 1:54:47.120
<v Speaker 2>the sense unless you were part of an organized group

1:54:47.200 --> 1:54:50.920
<v Speaker 2>invited by the government. But I someoney told me a

1:54:51.040 --> 1:54:52.920
<v Speaker 2>place in Hong Kong I could go and buy a

1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:55.600
<v Speaker 2>visa for a few hundred dollars and get across the border.

1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:57.080
<v Speaker 2>And if you take the train to guang Jo and

1:54:57.120 --> 1:54:59.960
<v Speaker 2>you go to the left hand gate immigration gate way

1:55:00.120 --> 1:55:02.680
<v Speaker 2>for the guy called Juan Joe and show him your

1:55:02.920 --> 1:55:05.280
<v Speaker 2>passport and he'll slip something in and watchur in the country.

1:55:05.800 --> 1:55:07.640
<v Speaker 2>So I got in the country. I got himself to Beijing,

1:55:07.760 --> 1:55:11.360
<v Speaker 2>was sitting in this hotel and thinking, I want Wham

1:55:11.440 --> 1:55:14.120
<v Speaker 2>to come and play in China. Who can give permission?

1:55:14.400 --> 1:55:17.480
<v Speaker 2>And why would they? And the only person I can

1:55:17.520 --> 1:55:19.800
<v Speaker 2>think of food give permission was just happened to be

1:55:19.920 --> 1:55:23.400
<v Speaker 2>the head of Shana Danshalping, chairman of the Commorts Party,

1:55:23.480 --> 1:55:26.360
<v Speaker 2>probably the second or third most important person in the world.

1:55:28.680 --> 1:55:31.600
<v Speaker 2>An absurd thing to try to be doing and why

1:55:31.760 --> 1:55:34.920
<v Speaker 2>would he let them in? But you know, I thought

1:55:35.000 --> 1:55:37.839
<v Speaker 2>a lot. I managed to get in touch with the minister.

1:55:39.720 --> 1:55:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I told him what I was doing. He told me

1:55:43.800 --> 1:55:46.480
<v Speaker 2>that China was opening up and they wanted to get

1:55:46.520 --> 1:55:48.760
<v Speaker 2>lots of foreign investment, and I said, you know, the

1:55:48.840 --> 1:55:51.560
<v Speaker 2>best possible way, the best possible way to get foreign

1:55:51.600 --> 1:55:54.920
<v Speaker 2>investment is to invite a teenage pop group to come

1:55:55.000 --> 1:55:57.600
<v Speaker 2>and play in China. Because everyone in the world knows

1:55:57.680 --> 1:56:01.800
<v Speaker 2>that teenagers are subversive like the older generation, they want

1:56:01.840 --> 1:56:03.560
<v Speaker 2>to change things, they want to do things to Harry,

1:56:04.520 --> 1:56:08.040
<v Speaker 2>they always work against the established order for China, to

1:56:08.160 --> 1:56:11.240
<v Speaker 2>invite at western group to come to China would really

1:56:11.280 --> 1:56:15.720
<v Speaker 2>show such confidence in yourself, such an ability to open

1:56:15.840 --> 1:56:20.560
<v Speaker 2>up and accept new ideas. Your foreign investment were absolutely pouring.

1:56:21.880 --> 1:56:25.120
<v Speaker 2>And he wasn't convinced. And I went back every month

1:56:25.200 --> 1:56:28.800
<v Speaker 2>for fifteen months, meeting more and more ministers and trying

1:56:28.840 --> 1:56:35.560
<v Speaker 2>to persuade them, and eventually persuaded them, and eventually I

1:56:35.760 --> 1:56:38.040
<v Speaker 2>was taken to an office where the minister got on

1:56:38.120 --> 1:56:40.880
<v Speaker 2>a red phone which went directly to Danshao being they

1:56:40.920 --> 1:56:44.120
<v Speaker 2>spoke and he told me, yes, you're invited to come

1:56:44.120 --> 1:56:47.960
<v Speaker 2>and play this gig, which was an astonishing thing to

1:56:48.000 --> 1:56:50.560
<v Speaker 2>pull off. I'm looking back now, I'm more amazed than

1:56:50.600 --> 1:56:55.280
<v Speaker 2>I was at the time. And yes, Wang got to

1:56:55.320 --> 1:57:00.160
<v Speaker 2>play those stadium tours as a result, and China got

1:57:00.200 --> 1:57:02.320
<v Speaker 2>its investment because I went back to Beijing a year

1:57:02.440 --> 1:57:06.720
<v Speaker 2>later and the drab, dull, old fashioned Beijing which was

1:57:06.760 --> 1:57:09.240
<v Speaker 2>there in nineteen eighty five when I first went, with

1:57:09.480 --> 1:57:14.960
<v Speaker 2>no modern buildings at all, and just a single level,

1:57:15.160 --> 1:57:17.680
<v Speaker 2>five story buildings on both sides of these wide avenues,

1:57:17.960 --> 1:57:21.400
<v Speaker 2>so the whole thing was like huge prison yards. I

1:57:21.480 --> 1:57:23.800
<v Speaker 2>went back a year later and everywhere it was like

1:57:23.880 --> 1:57:26.520
<v Speaker 2>a building, absolutely everywhere. And I went to see the

1:57:26.600 --> 1:57:29.320
<v Speaker 2>minister who invited me, and he said it started the meeting.

1:57:29.920 --> 1:57:32.720
<v Speaker 2>Within a month of that of your gig, the foreign

1:57:32.760 --> 1:57:37.120
<v Speaker 2>investments poured in and it's doubled and continued to double

1:57:37.360 --> 1:57:41.040
<v Speaker 2>every year. So that was quite fun to have been

1:57:41.360 --> 1:57:43.520
<v Speaker 2>part of creating modern Beaiging.

1:57:45.320 --> 1:57:47.480
<v Speaker 1>So how did you lose Willem Well?

1:57:48.400 --> 1:57:51.600
<v Speaker 2>George said to me one day, I'm coming back from

1:57:51.640 --> 1:57:56.560
<v Speaker 2>a CBS conference in Bournemouth. In the limousine, he said,

1:57:56.640 --> 1:57:58.920
<v Speaker 2>when I go, So we'd already agreed he was going

1:57:59.000 --> 1:58:01.120
<v Speaker 2>to go on for six or months that was always

1:58:01.640 --> 1:58:04.440
<v Speaker 2>that was always pre arranged. He bought the date forward,

1:58:04.680 --> 1:58:07.680
<v Speaker 2>he'd always wrenered it. George said to me, when I

1:58:07.760 --> 1:58:11.320
<v Speaker 2>go solo, I don't want Jazz to be part of

1:58:11.400 --> 1:58:15.040
<v Speaker 2>the management. I just want you. And I said, you

1:58:15.160 --> 1:58:18.040
<v Speaker 2>can't tell me that. I can't do that. I can't

1:58:18.080 --> 1:58:20.480
<v Speaker 2>go to Jazz and say you're not going to manage

1:58:21.000 --> 1:58:24.000
<v Speaker 2>what George with me. He's been half of this management.

1:58:24.120 --> 1:58:27.440
<v Speaker 2>Everything has happened has been half because of him. And

1:58:28.000 --> 1:58:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I can't do it anymore than if I told you

1:58:31.160 --> 1:58:32.800
<v Speaker 2>right now you had to get rid of Andrew. You're

1:58:32.840 --> 1:58:34.720
<v Speaker 2>planning to leave Andrew. But if I told you you

1:58:34.880 --> 1:58:39.400
<v Speaker 2>had to, you wouldn't do it. And George, it's quite

1:58:39.760 --> 1:58:42.080
<v Speaker 2>He's okay. He said, no, I understand you can't, but

1:58:42.360 --> 1:58:44.960
<v Speaker 2>if you don't, you can't manage it. I said, well

1:58:45.000 --> 1:58:46.880
<v Speaker 2>that's it. I won't manage it because I'm not prepared

1:58:46.920 --> 1:58:48.480
<v Speaker 2>to go and tell Jazz. I'm going to do it

1:58:48.520 --> 1:58:53.400
<v Speaker 2>by myself. And that was it. Really we became. We

1:58:53.480 --> 1:58:56.080
<v Speaker 2>were quite amicable about it. And then I went and

1:58:56.200 --> 1:59:00.240
<v Speaker 2>told Jazz that we would not be managing. Wow, because

1:59:00.240 --> 1:59:02.640
<v Speaker 2>I didn't say I didn't say. George said it was

1:59:03.000 --> 1:59:05.560
<v Speaker 2>him I said, he doesn't want us to manage it,

1:59:06.320 --> 1:59:09.480
<v Speaker 2>and so Jazz said, well, let's sell the company while

1:59:09.480 --> 1:59:12.400
<v Speaker 2>we're still managiner. And so we made a deal with

1:59:12.520 --> 1:59:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Harvey Goldsmith, who was the biggest promoter in the UK

1:59:14.960 --> 1:59:17.720
<v Speaker 2>and who promoted all of Wham's concerts in the UK,

1:59:18.480 --> 1:59:21.840
<v Speaker 2>to sell our company to Harvey Goldsmith. It was quite

1:59:21.840 --> 1:59:24.560
<v Speaker 2>a good deal and we get a capital son out

1:59:24.600 --> 1:59:29.400
<v Speaker 2>of it. But the problem was Harvey Goldsmith had just

1:59:29.520 --> 1:59:33.320
<v Speaker 2>sold his company to a guy called soul Kertzter who

1:59:33.520 --> 1:59:38.200
<v Speaker 2>owned Sun City in South Africa. I didn't really bother

1:59:38.240 --> 1:59:40.760
<v Speaker 2>as much because we were selling our company to Harvey

1:59:41.240 --> 1:59:43.080
<v Speaker 2>and he hadn't sold his company to sun City. He

1:59:43.200 --> 1:59:46.440
<v Speaker 2>sold his company to the guy who also owned sun City.

1:59:47.240 --> 1:59:51.800
<v Speaker 2>But when the deal went through, the Hollywood Reporter carried

1:59:51.840 --> 1:59:55.200
<v Speaker 2>a headline which said WHAM Management sell to sun City,

1:59:56.920 --> 1:59:58.640
<v Speaker 2>and George called me up. So I can't live with it.

1:59:59.240 --> 2:00:01.320
<v Speaker 2>I can't live with that headline. I'm going to have

2:00:01.400 --> 2:00:06.800
<v Speaker 2>to fire and again was quite amiable. It's strange people

2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:09.520
<v Speaker 2>like to think that these things are always huge routes.

2:00:10.400 --> 2:00:12.000
<v Speaker 2>But I went and had lunch with him and I said, well,

2:00:12.200 --> 2:00:13.720
<v Speaker 2>it's too late now, and I can't get rid of

2:00:13.760 --> 2:00:16.040
<v Speaker 2>the headline. It's there, And he said, I just wish

2:00:16.120 --> 2:00:17.480
<v Speaker 2>you'd done it more quietly, but I'm going to have

2:00:17.560 --> 2:00:20.920
<v Speaker 2>to fire. So he did. But we were actually at

2:00:20.960 --> 2:00:24.320
<v Speaker 2>that time, I, Jazz and I were also managing a

2:00:24.400 --> 2:00:27.600
<v Speaker 2>guy called David Austin, who was one of George's best friends.

2:00:28.400 --> 2:00:32.480
<v Speaker 2>And George said, don't I still manage I still managed

2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:36.480
<v Speaker 2>to work with you, and well, I'll produce David Austin.

2:00:37.040 --> 2:00:40.040
<v Speaker 2>So a week after he ostensibly farre us, you know,

2:00:40.080 --> 2:00:42.360
<v Speaker 2>I went up to em I to talk about David

2:00:42.360 --> 2:00:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Austin debit. David aside with George and everyone hear Min

2:00:46.600 --> 2:00:48.160
<v Speaker 2>was amazed, how can we fired you? Last week? He

2:00:48.240 --> 2:00:51.440
<v Speaker 2>was sitting here talking. But you know, he fired me

2:00:51.480 --> 2:00:53.440
<v Speaker 2>from being a manager. He didn't farm for being a friend.

2:00:53.520 --> 2:00:56.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just completely different things. There were good reasons,

2:00:57.160 --> 2:00:59.360
<v Speaker 2>and he was right. I mean, he couldn't have headline

2:00:59.440 --> 2:01:02.720
<v Speaker 2>is going to just worry or destroy his career. And

2:01:04.240 --> 2:01:08.640
<v Speaker 2>so that was it. And then Harvey, I guess unsold

2:01:08.680 --> 2:01:12.600
<v Speaker 2>his company and we unsold it. That was it. They

2:01:12.640 --> 2:01:15.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't worry me. I couldn't have broken George in America

2:01:15.360 --> 2:01:18.600
<v Speaker 2>like he was broken I knew George was breaking up

2:01:18.640 --> 2:01:21.160
<v Speaker 2>WHAM really because he was gay and he couldn't face

2:01:21.240 --> 2:01:26.560
<v Speaker 2>the pressure of permanently having to dodge around and tell

2:01:26.720 --> 2:01:31.520
<v Speaker 2>semi lies about his sexuality. And once he left, once

2:01:31.600 --> 2:01:34.880
<v Speaker 2>he broke them up, the whole idea for me was

2:01:34.960 --> 2:01:38.560
<v Speaker 2>to become himself. And when he broke them up and

2:01:38.680 --> 2:01:41.240
<v Speaker 2>then created a new image for himself which was even

2:01:41.400 --> 2:01:46.240
<v Speaker 2>more non gay and even more heterosexual than the image

2:01:46.240 --> 2:01:48.760
<v Speaker 2>had had, I told him, and we were still talking,

2:01:50.000 --> 2:01:52.040
<v Speaker 2>that's going to kill you. You hate it. You can't

2:01:52.360 --> 2:01:55.040
<v Speaker 2>live with that image. And if I'd been managing him,

2:01:55.120 --> 2:01:58.440
<v Speaker 2>I just I wouldn't have gone managing it anyway, or

2:01:58.440 --> 2:02:01.800
<v Speaker 2>I just decided not to do it, and I could

2:02:01.840 --> 2:02:03.440
<v Speaker 2>see what was going to happen. I mean, a year

2:02:03.520 --> 2:02:06.520
<v Speaker 2>of huge success and I you know, the two managers

2:02:06.560 --> 2:02:08.800
<v Speaker 2>of the American Managers GOT did a brilliant job for

2:02:08.880 --> 2:02:11.120
<v Speaker 2>him and kept him going for that year Getting. He

2:02:11.240 --> 2:02:13.440
<v Speaker 2>was getting more and more unhappy throughout the whole period,

2:02:13.960 --> 2:02:16.640
<v Speaker 2>and by the end of the year. I mean, I

2:02:16.840 --> 2:02:18.560
<v Speaker 2>did tell the story in the film I made about it,

2:02:20.000 --> 2:02:21.480
<v Speaker 2>but at the end of the year he was he

2:02:21.600 --> 2:02:24.840
<v Speaker 2>was pretty I'm unable to go on with it. He

2:02:24.960 --> 2:02:28.160
<v Speaker 2>knew he'd done emotionally the wrong thing. But the other hand,

2:02:28.200 --> 2:02:30.720
<v Speaker 2>he had sixty million dollars in the back and that

2:02:30.880 --> 2:02:32.520
<v Speaker 2>was him secure for the rest of his life, which

2:02:32.600 --> 2:02:36.400
<v Speaker 2>is something he did want. So I had no regrets

2:02:36.440 --> 2:02:37.760
<v Speaker 2>because I don't look at him think I could have

2:02:37.800 --> 2:02:39.800
<v Speaker 2>done that. There's no way I could have gone through

2:02:39.840 --> 2:02:40.880
<v Speaker 2>that year with them in America.

2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Did you foresee his death at a young age?

2:02:47.480 --> 2:02:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that's a very general question that's easy

2:02:50.760 --> 2:02:54.800
<v Speaker 2>to answer, yes, because he had that about him. He

2:02:54.960 --> 2:02:59.919
<v Speaker 2>had about him somebody who would. I think he forcedaw

2:03:00.280 --> 2:03:02.440
<v Speaker 2>And when people foresaw things, it's sort of like wanting it,

2:03:02.520 --> 2:03:04.920
<v Speaker 2>isn't it. I mean, you know, a large part of

2:03:04.960 --> 2:03:07.840
<v Speaker 2>an artist, an artist like George, he's not the only one.

2:03:09.040 --> 2:03:11.520
<v Speaker 2>He's an artist in creating songs, as an artist in

2:03:11.560 --> 2:03:14.600
<v Speaker 2>creating his image and his videos and the general look,

2:03:15.360 --> 2:03:18.320
<v Speaker 2>but he's also his artist in creating the overall arc

2:03:18.560 --> 2:03:21.720
<v Speaker 2>of his story life. And he saw the arc of

2:03:21.800 --> 2:03:26.200
<v Speaker 2>a life story and he was far too aware not

2:03:26.400 --> 2:03:30.520
<v Speaker 2>to be not to understand what a good a good

2:03:30.640 --> 2:03:36.200
<v Speaker 2>story arc for an artist is. And he's had two

2:03:36.880 --> 2:03:42.320
<v Speaker 2>bipolar relatives who'd committed suicide, and he was pretty obsessed

2:03:42.360 --> 2:03:45.280
<v Speaker 2>with the idea that he might get driven to suicide.

2:03:45.920 --> 2:03:48.360
<v Speaker 2>So whether he was suicidal or not, he did have

2:03:48.520 --> 2:03:52.720
<v Speaker 2>in mind that he might die not a natural death

2:03:52.760 --> 2:03:55.720
<v Speaker 2>at an old age. He always had that in mind,

2:03:56.080 --> 2:03:58.920
<v Speaker 2>and he was not He was quite forthcoming about talking

2:03:58.960 --> 2:04:04.440
<v Speaker 2>about it. He was a very perceptive person about himself,

2:04:05.560 --> 2:04:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think he foresaw himself as not getting very old.

2:04:10.200 --> 2:04:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh Gary old, being seventy or eighty. You know when

2:04:13.840 --> 2:04:17.120
<v Speaker 2>when his voice as he did that, when he did

2:04:17.160 --> 2:04:19.800
<v Speaker 2>that sympoonicatur, he looked at him and thought, you know,

2:04:19.880 --> 2:04:22.000
<v Speaker 2>he could be a Charles dazibor, he could be a

2:04:22.560 --> 2:04:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Tony Bennett. He could go out and sing other people's

2:04:24.640 --> 2:04:28.200
<v Speaker 2>songs almost better than his own songs. And going to

2:04:28.280 --> 2:04:30.360
<v Speaker 2>a town with the Rufus waynerright song, he sang it

2:04:30.480 --> 2:04:32.800
<v Speaker 2>so well that everybody thought it was his song. He

2:04:32.960 --> 2:04:36.800
<v Speaker 2>just he owned these songs when he sang. He sang

2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:40.600
<v Speaker 2>other people's songs quite magnificently, and he could have been

2:04:40.880 --> 2:04:45.480
<v Speaker 2>a very long term artist performing on their own. It

2:04:46.080 --> 2:04:48.640
<v Speaker 2>didn't appeal to him at all. He wasn't interested. He

2:04:48.760 --> 2:04:52.280
<v Speaker 2>wanted to create new music. We go back to one

2:04:52.280 --> 2:04:55.880
<v Speaker 2>of the first questions you asked me, why can't older

2:04:56.320 --> 2:05:02.440
<v Speaker 2>establish hugely skillful craftsmen still write hit songs. And the

2:05:02.520 --> 2:05:05.120
<v Speaker 2>fact is the public don't want hit songs from those

2:05:05.160 --> 2:05:07.160
<v Speaker 2>older people. They want them from the person they knew

2:05:07.160 --> 2:05:09.640
<v Speaker 2>as a young person. They're happy for the older person

2:05:09.720 --> 2:05:12.240
<v Speaker 2>to recreate the younger thing again, got was sing it.

2:05:12.920 --> 2:05:14.640
<v Speaker 2>They don't want to hear new songs from them. The

2:05:15.640 --> 2:05:18.880
<v Speaker 2>songwriting didn't just diminish because his ability to write songs

2:05:18.920 --> 2:05:23.360
<v Speaker 2>to themishes. The public stopped wanting them. They want the

2:05:23.440 --> 2:05:26.120
<v Speaker 2>young songs. That's my thing.

2:05:27.560 --> 2:05:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how did you then segue into making movies?

2:05:31.880 --> 2:05:33.720
<v Speaker 2>I just did what I should have done from the beginning.

2:05:36.240 --> 2:05:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Movies was what I was brought up with. I looked

2:05:39.480 --> 2:05:42.120
<v Speaker 2>at movies. I copped out of movies when I was

2:05:42.200 --> 2:05:44.280
<v Speaker 2>younger because they took a long time and I was

2:05:44.360 --> 2:05:47.560
<v Speaker 2>impatient and yan. And you know, when you make a movie,

2:05:48.440 --> 2:05:51.760
<v Speaker 2>if you're talking about feature films, not talkingmentaries from the

2:05:53.160 --> 2:05:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the concept, the first concept idea you have for a

2:05:56.040 --> 2:05:57.760
<v Speaker 2>movie to when the movie is finished just four to

2:05:57.880 --> 2:06:00.720
<v Speaker 2>five years. You have to get concept. You have to

2:06:00.760 --> 2:06:02.320
<v Speaker 2>get the script, you have to raise the money, you

2:06:02.360 --> 2:06:06.480
<v Speaker 2>have to make it promoted. You could make an album

2:06:06.680 --> 2:06:09.880
<v Speaker 2>in the ninety sixties in a day. You could make

2:06:09.960 --> 2:06:12.520
<v Speaker 2>an album today. Pick the best track out, have it

2:06:12.600 --> 2:06:16.160
<v Speaker 2>on radio two nights later. The speed was so youthful,

2:06:16.240 --> 2:06:18.440
<v Speaker 2>so energetic, as so much what I loved and wanted

2:06:18.480 --> 2:06:21.240
<v Speaker 2>to do. And once I was in the music industry,

2:06:21.240 --> 2:06:23.040
<v Speaker 2>I was trapped. It was the music industry is a

2:06:23.160 --> 2:06:28.040
<v Speaker 2>hugely enjoyable, fun, undisciplined world, and the film industry has

2:06:28.120 --> 2:06:31.000
<v Speaker 2>to be disciplined. You can't be undisciplined. Too many people

2:06:31.080 --> 2:06:34.200
<v Speaker 2>contribute to a film. I needed to contribute at every level,

2:06:34.800 --> 2:06:38.200
<v Speaker 2>both the dull ones and the creative ones. They're all needed.

2:06:38.960 --> 2:06:41.480
<v Speaker 2>And so I opted out and had my fun. But

2:06:41.560 --> 2:06:45.560
<v Speaker 2>by the time, by the time I got to the nineties,

2:06:45.880 --> 2:06:48.280
<v Speaker 2>I really wanted to make films. I wanted to do

2:06:49.040 --> 2:06:52.600
<v Speaker 2>what I'd sort of always wanted to do but hadn't done.

2:06:53.080 --> 2:06:57.200
<v Speaker 2>And it just fitted. It just fitted my personality and

2:06:57.760 --> 2:07:00.480
<v Speaker 2>how I wanted to live. And as much what I mean,

2:07:00.480 --> 2:07:02.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm work more fun than writing books because I went

2:07:02.560 --> 2:07:05.040
<v Speaker 2>to writing books first. I'd always thought I should be

2:07:05.040 --> 2:07:07.000
<v Speaker 2>a writer. I wrote books, and I wrote three or

2:07:07.040 --> 2:07:09.480
<v Speaker 2>four very well received, very good books. But writing books

2:07:09.560 --> 2:07:12.480
<v Speaker 2>is so tedious. I mean you sit for a year

2:07:12.560 --> 2:07:15.160
<v Speaker 2>and than a room by yourself and have all the

2:07:15.240 --> 2:07:17.720
<v Speaker 2>self doubts which you get with anything when you create,

2:07:17.960 --> 2:07:20.320
<v Speaker 2>but you have them all bottled apping yourself for a

2:07:20.440 --> 2:07:25.000
<v Speaker 2>year and not fun at all. Making movies is very relaxed.

2:07:25.360 --> 2:07:29.400
<v Speaker 2>It's communal, you're out with people, you're talking and discussing things.

2:07:29.560 --> 2:07:31.120
<v Speaker 2>You have to compromise a bit more than you do

2:07:31.360 --> 2:07:36.000
<v Speaker 2>with writing, but it's a pleasant life. And there's no

2:07:36.120 --> 2:07:38.840
<v Speaker 2>age barrier either. You know my age now in the

2:07:38.880 --> 2:07:42.880
<v Speaker 2>film business, in record business, it's incredibly difficult persuade people

2:07:42.920 --> 2:07:45.400
<v Speaker 2>that some of my age should have should be effective

2:07:45.480 --> 2:07:48.520
<v Speaker 2>in the record business. If you write down the top

2:07:48.640 --> 2:07:52.040
<v Speaker 2>grossing the top twenty grossing film directors in the world,

2:07:52.680 --> 2:07:55.960
<v Speaker 2>half of them are over seventy and five of those

2:07:56.000 --> 2:07:58.760
<v Speaker 2>are over eighty. So there's no age barrier to making films.

2:07:59.120 --> 2:08:02.400
<v Speaker 2>So it felt like and comfortable to get into for

2:08:02.520 --> 2:08:03.160
<v Speaker 2>the last lap.

2:08:04.840 --> 2:08:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, it is public knowledge you are eighty five. Ironically

2:08:09.680 --> 2:08:12.800
<v Speaker 1>you share my birthday a pl twenty second along with

2:08:12.880 --> 2:08:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Peter Frampton. Yeah, is someone who did not know that.

2:08:17.960 --> 2:08:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Listening to you, you are as sharp as anybody consciously there.

2:08:24.560 --> 2:08:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Do you still see runway do you still things you

2:08:27.360 --> 2:08:30.280
<v Speaker 1>want to achieve? Do you act like, Wow, I'm gonna

2:08:30.320 --> 2:08:33.960
<v Speaker 1>live for another fifteen years, or do you say, hey, man,

2:08:34.040 --> 2:08:37.320
<v Speaker 1>every day's a blessing. You know, how do you approach it?

2:08:38.360 --> 2:08:40.640
<v Speaker 2>I've never managed to do that. I read people who

2:08:40.680 --> 2:08:43.880
<v Speaker 2>get ill, when they're recovered, they say, ah, every day's

2:08:43.880 --> 2:08:47.000
<v Speaker 2>a blessing. I can't think about that when every day

2:08:47.160 --> 2:08:49.040
<v Speaker 2>is nice and a pain in the ass all the

2:08:49.080 --> 2:08:52.280
<v Speaker 2>things that are us. Nothing has changed. Really, there are

2:08:52.320 --> 2:08:55.800
<v Speaker 2>good days and bad daysn't much more likely every day

2:08:55.880 --> 2:08:58.520
<v Speaker 2>has the good and the bad. I've read things in

2:08:58.600 --> 2:09:01.200
<v Speaker 2>your column time to time when you were really very ill,

2:09:01.520 --> 2:09:04.560
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, God, Bob, Bob, he's not gonna last

2:09:04.560 --> 2:09:06.520
<v Speaker 2>a bit longer, much longer. And then a couple of

2:09:06.560 --> 2:09:08.280
<v Speaker 2>weeks ago you were writing about how you like to

2:09:08.360 --> 2:09:10.680
<v Speaker 2>be perfect at all times, and you you're currently you

2:09:10.800 --> 2:09:14.920
<v Speaker 2>are they see you weren't so well after all. I've

2:09:14.960 --> 2:09:17.720
<v Speaker 2>got Listen, you get to eighty five when people say

2:09:17.760 --> 2:09:20.400
<v Speaker 2>how are you? The easiest thing to hand them a list?

2:09:20.880 --> 2:09:22.960
<v Speaker 2>You know there's going to be five or six things

2:09:23.040 --> 2:09:25.360
<v Speaker 2>wrong with me. If I was fifty and I had

2:09:25.400 --> 2:09:28.280
<v Speaker 2>those things wrong with me, I'd be horrified. With any

2:09:28.320 --> 2:09:30.280
<v Speaker 2>one of them. But you learn to live with them,

2:09:30.840 --> 2:09:32.720
<v Speaker 2>and you learn to cope with them, and they're just

2:09:33.280 --> 2:09:36.880
<v Speaker 2>just annoyances. But you have to be aware. I've got

2:09:36.880 --> 2:09:40.000
<v Speaker 2>a little chart I found in them online a few

2:09:40.040 --> 2:09:43.480
<v Speaker 2>weeks ago. At eighty five, your chances of living beyond

2:09:43.560 --> 2:09:46.280
<v Speaker 2>one year only fifteen percent. So there's an eighty five

2:09:46.320 --> 2:09:49.880
<v Speaker 2>percent chance eighty five percents I won't be live next year.

2:09:50.880 --> 2:09:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Funnily enough, each year you live longer, that chance gets greater,

2:09:54.880 --> 2:09:57.240
<v Speaker 2>because the average age of death is eighty three y four.

2:09:57.280 --> 2:09:59.400
<v Speaker 2>If you go past that, you're now into the people

2:09:59.440 --> 2:09:59.960
<v Speaker 2>who live longer.

2:10:00.280 --> 2:10:04.040
<v Speaker 4>Even but as they say, the longer you live, the

2:10:04.200 --> 2:10:06.400
<v Speaker 4>longer you live, you might do. Yeah, it's like shows

2:10:06.440 --> 2:10:08.400
<v Speaker 4>in Las Vegas. There's an interesting go back to Las

2:10:08.480 --> 2:10:11.160
<v Speaker 4>Vegas show. Everywhere in the world, when a shows run

2:10:11.240 --> 2:10:13.240
<v Speaker 4>a long time, it's going to come off soon. And

2:10:13.360 --> 2:10:15.720
<v Speaker 4>in Vegas, the longer it runs, the more it becomes

2:10:15.800 --> 2:10:19.040
<v Speaker 4>a part of Vegas. And long term Vegas shows never

2:10:19.120 --> 2:10:21.920
<v Speaker 4>come off. And our shows hit that point, they've now

2:10:22.040 --> 2:10:24.720
<v Speaker 4>given us a Las Vegas day. We have a rating

2:10:24.760 --> 2:10:26.280
<v Speaker 4>a rock balled day in Las Vegas.

2:10:26.320 --> 2:10:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Every day. That means they expect you to be there forever,

2:10:29.360 --> 2:10:33.640
<v Speaker 2>So I'd like a Simon Api bail day here forever.

2:10:35.120 --> 2:10:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I plan almost as if I'm going to be around,

2:10:38.080 --> 2:10:41.080
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I don't bother. I'm working on movies,

2:10:41.080 --> 2:10:45.480
<v Speaker 2>and I don't bother much with scripted movies, with that

2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:48.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of stuff, because it's about a five year prep time.

2:10:48.600 --> 2:10:51.200
<v Speaker 2>If I had the most brilliant idea and everybody agreed

2:10:51.200 --> 2:10:53.200
<v Speaker 2>that it's brilliant, and everybody says, we want to put

2:10:53.240 --> 2:10:55.280
<v Speaker 2>money and this is this is an amazing film, this

2:10:55.480 --> 2:10:58.040
<v Speaker 2>is going to happen, it'll still be five years before

2:10:58.040 --> 2:11:00.440
<v Speaker 2>it's on the screen. That seems to be longer than

2:11:00.440 --> 2:11:03.080
<v Speaker 2>it's worth getting involved at eighty five. So I go

2:11:03.200 --> 2:11:05.200
<v Speaker 2>for documentaries where you can have an idea now and

2:11:05.280 --> 2:11:06.880
<v Speaker 2>it could be you could be making it in a

2:11:06.960 --> 2:11:09.520
<v Speaker 2>few weeks. And I'm working on two films currently, you know,

2:11:09.760 --> 2:11:12.640
<v Speaker 2>just pretty good be interested to have two films at once,

2:11:12.880 --> 2:11:16.720
<v Speaker 2>So I'm pretty happy with it. One of those two films,

2:11:17.240 --> 2:11:20.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm making one about the Marquee Club. And my actually,

2:11:20.520 --> 2:11:23.920
<v Speaker 2>my feeling about the Marque Club was what would be

2:11:24.000 --> 2:11:25.920
<v Speaker 2>interesting is not to make a film just about a club.

2:11:25.960 --> 2:11:28.120
<v Speaker 2>I've seen a couple of American films about clubs, one

2:11:28.120 --> 2:11:30.520
<v Speaker 2>about the Go Go and Whiskey and Gogan, one about

2:11:31.240 --> 2:11:33.760
<v Speaker 2>the La Club. They get a bit boring, just endless.

2:11:33.800 --> 2:11:36.440
<v Speaker 2>People say, hey, way man, you know everyone was down there,

2:11:36.560 --> 2:11:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Brad Pitt was smashed. I looked at the Marque Club

2:11:39.760 --> 2:11:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, the story is how trad jazz turned

2:11:43.440 --> 2:11:45.920
<v Speaker 2>into skiffle turned into rock. The story I told you

2:11:46.000 --> 2:11:49.600
<v Speaker 2>earlier that all happened at the Marque Club. The Marque

2:11:49.680 --> 2:11:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Club was a trad jazz club which became a skiffle club,

2:11:52.640 --> 2:11:55.400
<v Speaker 2>which became the Rhythm of Blews Company. It became the

2:11:55.520 --> 2:11:58.240
<v Speaker 2>birthplace of rock, and then every major rock group played there.

2:11:58.800 --> 2:12:00.720
<v Speaker 2>So we're really looking at the story of the music

2:12:01.000 --> 2:12:03.480
<v Speaker 2>and the evolution. A two or three part series on that,

2:12:04.000 --> 2:12:06.360
<v Speaker 2>but all at the Marquee Club, because that is where

2:12:06.400 --> 2:12:09.880
<v Speaker 2>it happened. So that film's underway and we've got a

2:12:10.040 --> 2:12:13.400
<v Speaker 2>great number of people. I went into viewed Phil Collins

2:12:13.440 --> 2:12:17.440
<v Speaker 2>a couple of weeks ago. Great keep Phil Collins at

2:12:17.480 --> 2:12:21.960
<v Speaker 2>fifteen left school every day at three o'clock and took

2:12:22.000 --> 2:12:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the train into town and arranged the chairs and the

2:12:25.120 --> 2:12:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Marquee clubs so they'd let him in free. And he

2:12:27.400 --> 2:12:30.120
<v Speaker 2>could sit in the front row. He did that for

2:12:30.240 --> 2:12:34.040
<v Speaker 2>two years, so every single group is great. That's the

2:12:34.080 --> 2:12:36.640
<v Speaker 2>story we wanted more than the story of his stardom later.

2:12:38.920 --> 2:12:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Enormous number of people who went through this whole process.

2:12:41.400 --> 2:12:45.440
<v Speaker 2>It's a very exciting fun film to make. Fat They

2:12:45.520 --> 2:12:48.440
<v Speaker 2>come to La shortly and we're talking to Big Fleetwood

2:12:48.560 --> 2:12:53.600
<v Speaker 2>and Brown Auger and the other film I'm doing is

2:12:53.760 --> 2:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the Wham to China film and the story of taking

2:12:57.640 --> 2:13:00.760
<v Speaker 2>Wam to China. It's an amazing story because I glossed

2:13:00.800 --> 2:13:02.880
<v Speaker 2>over it with you when I was telling it tonight,

2:13:02.960 --> 2:13:05.520
<v Speaker 2>because it goes on a long time. But how I've

2:13:05.520 --> 2:13:10.360
<v Speaker 2>persuaded all those ministers to take Wan, and how the

2:13:10.440 --> 2:13:14.960
<v Speaker 2>thing evolved, and there was an extraordinary story. You know,

2:13:15.240 --> 2:13:18.200
<v Speaker 2>artists are very up and down. George not the least.

2:13:19.200 --> 2:13:22.560
<v Speaker 2>It took fifteen months ago into China, every single month,

2:13:23.040 --> 2:13:26.240
<v Speaker 2>and I fed ministers. That's why I got it. I'd

2:13:26.280 --> 2:13:29.200
<v Speaker 2>bought lunch in a Beijing which had no good foods.

2:13:29.200 --> 2:13:32.080
<v Speaker 2>There was one great restaurant and the only hotel foreigners

2:13:32.160 --> 2:13:34.120
<v Speaker 2>were allowed to stay up and they had a great

2:13:34.160 --> 2:13:36.320
<v Speaker 2>restaurant because it was paid for and dollars so they

2:13:36.320 --> 2:13:40.080
<v Speaker 2>could get an important good food. The food in Beijing

2:13:40.200 --> 2:13:43.520
<v Speaker 2>wasn't good. And every week I got more and more

2:13:43.560 --> 2:13:45.320
<v Speaker 2>ministers to come who were really coming just because they

2:13:45.360 --> 2:13:49.160
<v Speaker 2>loved the meal and didn't even want the thing to

2:13:49.240 --> 2:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>come off because when it did, it at the end

2:13:50.760 --> 2:13:54.720
<v Speaker 2>of their dinners or under their lunches. And I'd report

2:13:54.840 --> 2:13:57.760
<v Speaker 2>back every month to George and Andrew and say what's

2:13:57.800 --> 2:14:00.480
<v Speaker 2>going on. I could see we were getting there, and

2:14:00.560 --> 2:14:02.880
<v Speaker 2>we finally pulled it off. And when I flew back

2:14:02.960 --> 2:14:07.000
<v Speaker 2>finally and I had the invitation, I got to London,

2:14:07.080 --> 2:14:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I told my secretary call a press conference tomorrow. We're

2:14:09.360 --> 2:14:11.920
<v Speaker 2>going to announce it. Caught up George Andrews had come

2:14:11.960 --> 2:14:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to dinner and tell um, we've done it. We're going

2:14:14.680 --> 2:14:17.360
<v Speaker 2>to play in China. And George said, I change your mind.

2:14:17.400 --> 2:14:22.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to do it, and he was serious

2:14:22.480 --> 2:14:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and absolutely don't want to do it. Just completely change.

2:14:24.760 --> 2:14:27.520
<v Speaker 2>It's not what I want to do. And Andrew and

2:14:27.600 --> 2:14:31.080
<v Speaker 2>I just sat and argument for an hour over dinner,

2:14:31.680 --> 2:14:34.800
<v Speaker 2>and finally George said, well, I'll do it, but no

2:14:35.000 --> 2:14:39.960
<v Speaker 2>journalists saw reporters, which was the whole purpose of doing it. Well,

2:14:40.000 --> 2:14:42.040
<v Speaker 2>of course, three weeks later he bounced out in the

2:14:42.040 --> 2:14:45.640
<v Speaker 2>stage and we're three hundred film crews, journalists, reporters, photographers,

2:14:46.760 --> 2:14:50.960
<v Speaker 2>and he didn't mind at all. You just like all artists,

2:14:51.040 --> 2:14:55.000
<v Speaker 2>they get nerves that one minute they're megalomaniacs. They're so

2:14:55.200 --> 2:14:58.640
<v Speaker 2>full of confidence. You wanted calm them and said, come on,

2:14:58.880 --> 2:15:01.120
<v Speaker 2>you know things can go wrong, be careful, and other

2:15:01.200 --> 2:15:04.080
<v Speaker 2>minutes they just collapse in a bundle of nerves. He

2:15:04.200 --> 2:15:06.240
<v Speaker 2>had those moments, like any good artist should.

2:15:08.120 --> 2:15:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Just going back to the movies, how much money do

2:15:10.520 --> 2:15:12.880
<v Speaker 1>these movies cost and where do the money come from?

2:15:14.080 --> 2:15:16.879
<v Speaker 2>Well, I made for I made one about Frank Sinatra

2:15:17.320 --> 2:15:20.160
<v Speaker 2>on what would have been his hundredth birthy. That was

2:15:20.200 --> 2:15:26.240
<v Speaker 2>a ninety minute film for Netflix, about three hundred and

2:15:26.280 --> 2:15:29.560
<v Speaker 2>fifty four hundred thousand. Then I made one called twenty

2:15:29.640 --> 2:15:32.760
<v Speaker 2>seven Gone Too Soon about the twenty seventh Club. Really

2:15:32.840 --> 2:15:34.880
<v Speaker 2>interesting because when I started it, I thought it was

2:15:34.960 --> 2:15:36.720
<v Speaker 2>just a load of rubbish, and when I studied it,

2:15:37.400 --> 2:15:40.680
<v Speaker 2>I found no load of rubbish at all. Twenty seven

2:15:40.800 --> 2:15:45.960
<v Speaker 2>is the age your frontal lobe becomes mature and frontal

2:15:46.000 --> 2:15:49.280
<v Speaker 2>low gives you cause and effect. And that's the moment

2:15:49.360 --> 2:15:52.840
<v Speaker 2>when people doubt themselves because they suddenly realize that giving

2:15:52.920 --> 2:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>up their opportunity to be a doctor or a scientist

2:15:54.960 --> 2:15:57.480
<v Speaker 2>by leaving university to become a rock star, and is

2:15:57.560 --> 2:15:59.400
<v Speaker 2>it what I want? So this is a very good

2:15:59.480 --> 2:16:02.560
<v Speaker 2>reason for these high level of death sort of suicides

2:16:02.600 --> 2:16:05.960
<v Speaker 2>to happen. Then I made a film called fifty Years Legal,

2:16:06.040 --> 2:16:09.760
<v Speaker 2>which is to mark the fiftieth Ani versus Brittain, a

2:16:09.840 --> 2:16:13.440
<v Speaker 2>decriminized sol and sexiarity that costs about that costs about

2:16:13.440 --> 2:16:17.320
<v Speaker 2>half a million, and we've got every single gay personality

2:16:17.360 --> 2:16:20.200
<v Speaker 2>in Britain and David Hotney and Stephen Fryan just everybody

2:16:20.400 --> 2:16:23.520
<v Speaker 2>to talking that. And then this one about George George

2:16:23.560 --> 2:16:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Michael portrait of an artist, same sort of same sort

2:16:28.000 --> 2:16:31.240
<v Speaker 2>of money you're talking about it. Half the problem with

2:16:31.320 --> 2:16:34.840
<v Speaker 2>all these films is when you're interviewing. When you're doing

2:16:35.120 --> 2:16:38.440
<v Speaker 2>interviews and talking heads to us stars, they're not easy

2:16:38.520 --> 2:16:40.160
<v Speaker 2>to get. You have to go where they are, so

2:16:40.320 --> 2:16:41.840
<v Speaker 2>you end up on a lot of travel and a

2:16:41.879 --> 2:16:45.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of wasted time, you know, four days flying somewhere

2:16:45.800 --> 2:16:50.080
<v Speaker 2>to talk to one person's that's an extravagance. And the

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<v Speaker 2>one I'm doing now, the Marquee, we it's privately raised money,

2:16:55.480 --> 2:16:57.480
<v Speaker 2>but we've got the money for a ninety minute film,

2:16:57.520 --> 2:16:59.920
<v Speaker 2>but we're getting so much material we think it needs

2:17:00.120 --> 2:17:02.760
<v Speaker 2>to be probably a three three times one hour, even

2:17:02.760 --> 2:17:05.600
<v Speaker 2>a four times one hour, because when we get to

2:17:05.760 --> 2:17:08.840
<v Speaker 2>rock music actually happening, it fragments into so many different

2:17:08.879 --> 2:17:14.119
<v Speaker 2>areas to pro crock, punk, rock, golf rock, and it'd

2:17:14.160 --> 2:17:18.680
<v Speaker 2>be nice to follow the follow It could could snowball

2:17:18.720 --> 2:17:20.560
<v Speaker 2>into a bigger film, but again, a sort of a

2:17:20.600 --> 2:17:23.560
<v Speaker 2>half million pound budget for six hundred thousand dollars bout

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<v Speaker 2>it for a nineteen minute film and if it goes

2:17:26.480 --> 2:17:28.840
<v Speaker 2>into a three times one hour, probably going up to

2:17:28.879 --> 2:17:29.280
<v Speaker 2>two million.

2:17:31.800 --> 2:17:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Simon, I think we're going to stop here. We

2:17:34.200 --> 2:17:37.560
<v Speaker 1>hit the outlines of your career. We hit a few

2:17:37.640 --> 2:17:42.760
<v Speaker 1>deep stories, the stuff about Skiffel. That's the best explanation

2:17:42.920 --> 2:17:46.760
<v Speaker 1>I've ever heard. Like I was riveted. I know you

2:17:46.959 --> 2:17:51.760
<v Speaker 1>have more insight like that. We'll have to continue another time,

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<v Speaker 1>but thanks so much for taking this time with my audience.

2:17:55.760 --> 2:17:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. You're a great person to talk to. You

2:17:58.760 --> 2:18:00.600
<v Speaker 2>just sit and look and smile, but you know how

2:18:00.640 --> 2:18:03.200
<v Speaker 2>to get it out of people. Thank you, And just

2:18:03.280 --> 2:18:06.440
<v Speaker 2>to gravel a little bit. I love your writing. I

2:18:06.600 --> 2:18:09.440
<v Speaker 2>love your writing because it's not corrected. It's the complete

2:18:09.600 --> 2:18:13.279
<v Speaker 2>officer of my writing, which is very polished and corrected,

2:18:13.959 --> 2:18:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and yours isn't. And I can't do that. I'd have

2:18:16.480 --> 2:18:18.440
<v Speaker 2>to be able to do it, but I can't. It

2:18:18.560 --> 2:18:22.680
<v Speaker 2>reminds me of Kerallac and the Beach Generation, and you

2:18:22.800 --> 2:18:27.440
<v Speaker 2>write in a wonderful, flowing, impulsive way. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>The funny thing I've learned, thank you very much, is

2:18:31.440 --> 2:18:34.440
<v Speaker 1>I used to explain this stuff that I really people

2:18:34.440 --> 2:18:37.040
<v Speaker 1>don't really want the explanation. They just want to read it,

2:18:37.600 --> 2:18:41.120
<v Speaker 1>so I won't explain it. But in any event, thank

2:18:41.160 --> 2:18:44.959
<v Speaker 1>you very much. We'll do this again. Until next time.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bob Love Set