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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lessner's Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is the one and only Simon Napier Bell, writer, producer, manager, author,

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Speaker 1: jack of all trades. Simon, good to have you on

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Speaker 1: the podcast.

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Speaker 2: You missed a filmmaker for ten years. That's all I've

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Speaker 2: been doing. Actually I almost.

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Speaker 1: Put that in one I'm talking, but we'll talk about that.

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Speaker 1: You live in Thailand. Why do you live in Thailand?

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Speaker 2: It's very central, you know, I work in UK and

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Speaker 2: Australia and China and America. Look at the map, find

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Speaker 2: a central point and you'll low to be in Thailand

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Speaker 2: or Hong Kong or Singapore. You know, it's it's twelve

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Speaker 2: hours to LA but it's twelve hours to London, twelve

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Speaker 2: hours to Aucklands and New Zealand. And it's warm, comfortable.

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Speaker 2: I love being in La without without February, without without

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Speaker 2: Decembine over February.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, you have to give me a little more.

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Speaker 1: Was it love? Was it money?

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know my husband, my boyfriend husband is tied.

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Speaker 2: Now you've got to You've got a choice. When when

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Speaker 2: you live with somebody you have lived in their country.

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Speaker 2: I live in your country. I mean, that's the sensible

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Speaker 2: choice choice. If I sudden, Spain would be nice if

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Speaker 2: I'd met a Spanish guy, but I didn't. I met

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Speaker 2: a tiger. We lived in England for five or six years.

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Speaker 2: It was good, but we had we kept a place

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Speaker 2: in Thailand, and eventually, eventually, whenever there was any free time,

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Speaker 2: I'd be in Thailand because it's warmer or pleasant, nicer,

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Speaker 2: And and then you'd have a holiday and you said

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Speaker 2: we'd better go to England to make sure the place

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Speaker 2: is okay. And you think that's not no longer to

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Speaker 2: start a place as the liability, you know, So we

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Speaker 2: got rid of that, and I would say, I'm here

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Speaker 2: three months a year. I mean, I just got back

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Speaker 2: yesterday from Indonesia. Five days week after next to be

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Speaker 2: back in London making films. I'm traveling the whole time, okay.

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Speaker 1: So if you're entirely in three months a year, are

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Speaker 1: you anywhere else for that amount of time?

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Speaker 2: Maybe the UK wouldn't come to that, but it would

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Speaker 2: be the next most I do. All of I make

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Speaker 2: films that I'm mainly in the UK. But then nowadays

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Speaker 2: the filming is literally only the filming I mean you

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Speaker 2: go to the UK, you got to interview people. You

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Speaker 2: may talk to the editor. You don't even need to

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Speaker 2: do that there. It is just when you're interviewing people

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Speaker 2: on the film. So the UK is probably kept down

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Speaker 2: to six weeks. Even have I making two films a

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Speaker 2: year America very little. I come often, but not for

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Speaker 2: a long time. I have a show running in Las

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Speaker 2: Vegas who's been going for ten years, Raging the Rockcord.

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Speaker 2: So I look in to make sure it's going. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Well I know it's going okay. I don't look into

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Speaker 2: make sure it's going. I looking because I like looking

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Speaker 2: in and to remind them I exist. Forget it, but

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Speaker 2: I'm part of it. And China, well that was a

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Speaker 2: lot before COVID. It faded away. It's just beginning to

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Speaker 2: come back again now.

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Speaker 1: Okay, if you dropped. I mean, Americans are really ethnocentric.

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Speaker 1: You draft the average American or English speaking person in Thailand,

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Speaker 1: whether they feel it's comfortable or whether they say, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is completely different.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. You see a lot of these things on

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Speaker 2: TikTok and people say, oh god, this is so amazing

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Speaker 2: and different. You've never been to a place like this,

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Speaker 2: and other people say, it just feels comfortable. This is

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Speaker 2: where your background is. America is very easy to generalize

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Speaker 2: about Americans, and I often do, which is unfair. Now

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Speaker 2: go for it, But you're so completely culturally different, you know. Well,

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Speaker 2: the first time I ever went to America, I was

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Speaker 2: I was eighteen, nineteen twenty out. We press a position

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Speaker 2: and I get a up and hitchhiked around America. And

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Speaker 2: I was brought up in an upper meddy class English family,

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Speaker 2: but my father had been a member of the Communist Party.

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Speaker 2: This is the diverse peculiarity you get in the upper

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Speaker 2: middle class in British. He went to Oxford University and

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Speaker 2: joined the Communist Party. He wanted to fight for the underdog.

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Speaker 2: So I was brought up to the upper middle class,

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Speaker 2: left wing, very left wing, atheist, very much part of

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Speaker 2: my culture. Not to believe I was color prejudice. I

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Speaker 2: preferred duck skinned people. I preferred anybody who could possibly

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Speaker 2: be prejudiced against. You know, they would immediately go up

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Speaker 2: in my estimation. I'd feel safe, for more comfortable with

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Speaker 2: people who were not white, middle class. They were people

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Speaker 2: I was uncomfortable with. And I went to America and

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Speaker 2: I was I'd been pre trained to not like Republican Christians.

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Speaker 2: This is the essence of what was wrong with America.

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Speaker 2: And I hit track around America, and everywhere I went,

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Speaker 2: I'd find really kind, nice, generous, humorous, well educated people

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Speaker 2: who would invite me home for the weekend and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: why you hitchhiking? Come home, spent a couple of days

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Speaker 2: of the family. And there were always white Republican Christians,

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Speaker 2: the nicest you can be. And I hated that because

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Speaker 2: it maybe have to think new things too complicated.

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Speaker 1: Since we're going that far and you live halfway around

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Speaker 1: the world, what is the assessment of the political condition

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Speaker 1: in the United States from afar?

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Speaker 2: Well, the one thing many Americans, I think most Americans

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Speaker 2: don't understand you do because you're hugely cosmopolitan, you're traveling,

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Speaker 2: you talk with people, is America's president. As the world's president,

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Speaker 2: we're all in your hands. And it is absolutely no

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Speaker 2: good thinking in an isolated way that other people don't

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Speaker 2: care about your president. And you know, it's a stugget

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Speaker 2: staggering to us that fifty percent of America doesn't understand

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Speaker 2: that the entire world doesn't just like Trump. They just

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Speaker 2: think it's incredible. A man who should probably be in

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Speaker 2: an old people's home, probably is a criminal, may not be,

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Speaker 2: that's probably mentally disadvantage in his entire life. That don't

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Speaker 2: mean recently it could be president and then having men

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Speaker 2: PRIs that you'd wanted president again, it's it doesn't it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't bode well for America in general or for

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Speaker 2: the world in general. And Americans failed to understand that

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Speaker 2: you you it's not your matter in taking a leadership

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Speaker 2: you you are in a leadership position, whether you want

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Speaker 2: it or not. So it's very difficult for the rest

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Speaker 2: of the world to respect America when when fifty percent

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Speaker 2: may vor for Trump, hopefully not three weeks, we will

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Speaker 2: go back to respecting them because you'll come to your senses.

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Speaker 1: Just because we're this far. What's your assessment of the

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Speaker 1: UK Brexit labor Tories.

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Speaker 2: Well, brexits most of pouring stupid thing which ever happened,

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Speaker 2: but they again a great look. Where did I see this?

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Speaker 2: A man phoned up a talk show and he was

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Speaker 2: planning that the talk show host had aligned British by

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Speaker 2: saying half the people in England behalf below average intelligence. Well,

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Speaker 2: half the people in Britain do have a low average intelligence,

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Speaker 2: as they do everywhere else in the world, and it's

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Speaker 2: always a pity when they can be swayed and rerex

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Speaker 2: It was just an insane thing to do, utterly, totally insane,

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Speaker 2: and pretty even the people who voted for it now

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Speaker 2: pretty well know it was and slowly, slowly will edge

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Speaker 2: back into being part of Europe.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about this show in Vegas.

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Speaker 2: It was a great idea. I had it typical of

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Speaker 2: my NonStop travel. I was sitting in the Purple Haze

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Speaker 2: Rock club in Bangalore about one in the morning, the

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Speaker 2: end of a very nice bottle of champagne. IM sitting alone,

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Speaker 2: and I've been listening to the DJ players endless stream

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Speaker 2: of records and by you mustn't counter culturists. Sometimes in

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Speaker 2: life you sit there amazingly every time one of your

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Speaker 2: favorite rock records finishes exactly the one you would have

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Speaker 2: chosen to put the covers off, and you think, God,

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Speaker 2: this DJ, he's wired. We're in a word to each other.

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Speaker 2: I've got to go and thank him. So I got

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Speaker 2: up to go for a pe. As I got up

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Speaker 2: to go to be I looked across to the DJ,

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Speaker 2: who I was going to go across and thank him

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Speaker 2: for having such exquisite taste, and it was a covers band.

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Speaker 2: Now I was a bit pissed. I'm sure, Champagne, but

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Speaker 2: you are meant to know the difference between covers and records,

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Speaker 2: especially if you've been in the business or in your life.

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Speaker 2: So when I got back and sat down, I pondered

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Speaker 2: on this. It was one of those incredibly clever Filipino bands.

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Speaker 2: You can play hugely loud feedback at just incredibly quiet levels,

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Speaker 2: and you know that they know they know how to

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Speaker 2: do all these things. And I sat down and I thought,

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Speaker 2: do you know what's missing in the world is great?

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Speaker 2: It's two hours of all your favorite rock played by

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Speaker 2: the greatest rock positions in the world. It's just never

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Speaker 2: been done. There are tribute bands, but they're not the

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Speaker 2: greatest rock positions. And so I got this idea. We

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Speaker 2: would have a show where every one of the greatest

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Speaker 2: rock positions who are not that minute on tour would

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Speaker 2: their band would form a band. And we have fifty

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Speaker 2: musicians and they are all top positions from top groups,

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Speaker 2: and tenor and leven are in the band at any

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Speaker 2: one time. You know, if we had Doug old Ritch

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Speaker 2: are a long time White State would go on tour.

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Speaker 2: So Doug would have to go on tour, and Tracy

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Speaker 2: Gunns would come in and traveling McDonald on base and

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Speaker 2: Jovia go on tour, and so we have this absolutely incredible,

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Speaker 2: top notch rock group playing everybody's favorite rocksms, including theirs.

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Speaker 2: Because this was the interesting thing to begin with, I

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Speaker 2: thought they won't want to do this, and then they

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Speaker 2: took Tracy guns who took me aside one and said,

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Speaker 2: I've You've given me a chance to play all the

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Speaker 2: songs I ever wanted to play. He said, if you're

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Speaker 2: a La Guns or White Snake, you can't go play

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Speaker 2: any Rolling Stone songs. You know you don't want to

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Speaker 2: let you. But my favorite songs too, like there everybody

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Speaker 2: else's and now we can play them. And so it's

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Speaker 2: amazing two hours every night of everybody's favorite music played

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Speaker 2: as well as it can be possibly played. And we

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Speaker 2: often have visiting rock stars. You're come in and listen them,

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Speaker 2: they're amazed.

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Speaker 1: But where does this play.

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Speaker 2: At the moment? Is that the hard Rock Cafe. It's

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Speaker 2: been at four different venues. We opened originally in what

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Speaker 2: was the less Long Hill, you know where Elvison everybody

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Speaker 2: had played, and then we moved to the Tropicana and

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Speaker 2: then the hard Rock Hotel and that closed and somewhere

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Speaker 2: else or on our fifth venue ten years, ten years continuously.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, so what are the economics? How many shows

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Speaker 1: a week?

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Speaker 2: We're doing four shows a week. We started. We were

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Speaker 2: very we started, and we were Harry Carl, my partner,

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Speaker 2: and a couple of no old British managers. People gave

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Speaker 2: us lots of advice and we didn't take it, which

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Speaker 2: is good. That's what you have to do that you

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Speaker 2: don't want to take too much advice. Mistakes are lovely.

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Speaker 2: But everybody said, you know, you need a couple of

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Speaker 2: million in the reserved or the show in Vegas. You

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Speaker 2: can't sell any tickets the first six months, and we said,

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Speaker 2: yeah we will, We've got this amazing show over the company.

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Speaker 2: What we had is, you can't because everybody books their

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Speaker 2: holiday in Vegas six months ahead, and they booked the

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Speaker 2: tickets for the shows they're going to see. So when

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Speaker 2: they get to Vegas, even if they want to see

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Speaker 2: your show, they're already booked up with other tickets. So

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Speaker 2: your first six months are horrific. You've got to fill

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Speaker 2: the show because if you don't fill it, everybody knows

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Speaker 2: it's a failure. And to fill it you have to pay.

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Speaker 2: It's not like giving away ten seats a night. You're

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Speaker 2: giving away eight hundred seats a night and you want

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Speaker 2: people to fill them. So you end up paying a

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Speaker 2: corporation companies who do this, This is how they make

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Speaker 2: their money. They'll fill your seats for you, and so

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Speaker 2: you pay for those seats to be filled. So for

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Speaker 2: at the end of six months, we had a good

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Speaker 2: big debt, a couple of million dollars debt, the amount

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Speaker 2: of money we were told we should have had to

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Speaker 2: start with. But bit by bit by bit, it's been

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Speaker 2: ten years now it's come round to being a very

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Speaker 2: very successful shodow and the debts got paid off and

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Speaker 2: it's making money and it's full every night.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So if what is the deal with the hotel?

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Speaker 2: Uh, the deal with the hotel printing as much we have,

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Speaker 2: we get, we get the space, and we have to

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Speaker 2: make the show profitable. That's everywhere in Vegas. Hotels are

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Speaker 2: not they're not entrepreneurs, they're not promoters. They give you

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Speaker 2: the space you've got to run your show and make

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Speaker 2: it profitable.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's assume it is profitable. They get a cut.

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Speaker 2: This is how you cut the deal. Normally they get

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Speaker 2: a cup, but not always. Some of them are really

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Speaker 2: happy just to have the bar continually full. You know

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Speaker 2: that the bar from a rock show is good money.

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Speaker 2: And at the Tropicana, for instance, I mean they'd never sold,

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Speaker 2: they'd never sold made so much from the bar as

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Speaker 2: they did with our show, and then they change it

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Speaker 2: for like a strip show, a girly show that was

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Speaker 2: full every night too, but nobody went and rank. You know,

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Speaker 2: rock fans strength lot. So everybody makes different deals for

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Speaker 2: different reasons. But basically, you are going to have to

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Speaker 2: find your own way of making a profit out of

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Speaker 2: the show from the room they give you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so all the ticket revenue goes to the producer

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Speaker 1: of the show.

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Speaker 2: That's never the case anywhere with anything. That are people

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Speaker 2: who sell tickets.

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Speaker 1: Well that's why I'm asking. I know some stuff about Vegas,

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Speaker 1: but I'm talking to somebody else. I'll let you tell

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Speaker 1: the story.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know the current dealing. Follow my partner

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Speaker 2: made the deal and he would know. But if you

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Speaker 2: when you say all that to get money, if you

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Speaker 2: mean what you get after the ticket agency has taken

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Speaker 2: their percentages. Yeah, yeah, pretty well, yeah, pretty well?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So would you open another show in Vegas? Are

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Speaker 1: one and done?

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Speaker 2: We had Raiding a Rock Vault was followed by Rating

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Speaker 2: a Country Book, which we did in Branson, Missouri. Again

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Speaker 2: it was very successful. But Harry, my partner, runs it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. We had the concept together, we put

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Speaker 2: it on together, and then he was abow decided to

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Speaker 2: live there and run it. He found going to Branson

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Speaker 2: back to Vegas every week, just you know. He did

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Speaker 2: it for two years. It was just killing and so

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Speaker 2: we stopped that show and we probably will reopen it

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Speaker 2: in Vegas at some stage. But Vegas isn't good on

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Speaker 2: studying country music, and we are going to Raiding the

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Speaker 2: Latin Vault, which we've had a great demand for. So

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Speaker 2: we may do two shows in the same venue, alternating nights.

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Speaker 2: So we may have two different venues doing two different shows.

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Speaker 1: So if you're doing four shows a night, what's in

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Speaker 1: the theater the other night?

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Speaker 2: Four shows? Four shows a week? Do you know? It varies?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes there's nothing, Sometimes there just incoming one night shows.

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Speaker 2: There have been nights I noticed I've noticed groups coming

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Speaker 2: in and playing one night. It's a hard rock cafe,

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Speaker 2: so they they've got groups coming in, but it's not

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Speaker 2: a constant. They'll be changing what's on each night.

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Speaker 1: Okay, where is your residence for taxes? And what are

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Speaker 1: the tax implications being a citizen of the world.

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Speaker 2: You mean for me, not that show that shows that

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Speaker 2: number that shows an American show. For me a complex.

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Speaker 2: I'm a non resident brit which means that I have

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Speaker 2: If I earn money in Britain, I have to pay

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Speaker 2: tax on it. But I've earned money outside of Britain,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to pay tax, unlike Americans who have

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Speaker 2: to pay American tax of money they earned in any country.

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Speaker 2: So if I earn money here in Asia, or if

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Speaker 2: I earn money anyway which is paid to me through

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Speaker 2: an Asian company or even direct to me, I'm not

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Speaker 2: liable for UK tax on that. But a lot of

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Speaker 2: money I owned the UK because I have a corporation

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Speaker 2: in the UK. That's really the biggest source of income.

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Speaker 2: I didn't when I first moved here. I thought I

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Speaker 2: have a corporation here and keep on my income out

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Speaker 2: of the UK, but it's difficult. People want to work

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Speaker 2: with the UK company. It's comfortable. Bank transfers go through easily,

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Speaker 2: and so in many ways, I don't really have much

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Speaker 2: tax money from being here. I'm pretty much paying UK tax,

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Speaker 2: but it's my choice. And if I do want to

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Speaker 2: make independent financial deals here with myself as a consultant,

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Speaker 2: when I work as a consultant, which I do quite often,

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Speaker 2: I get that paid directly to Thailand and then I

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Speaker 2: don't have to pay tax in the UK. If I

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Speaker 2: bring too much into Thailand, I would then have to

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Speaker 2: pay tax on that. But I have the advantage that

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Speaker 2: I'm old, and therefore Thailand sees me. It gives me.

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Speaker 2: I live here on a retirement visa, not at work visa,

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Speaker 2: and they want retired people to bring money in, so

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Speaker 2: they don't question much what money I'm bringing. I'm retired,

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Speaker 2: That's what they like. Old rich retired people bring in money.

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Speaker 1: But there is tax to the country of Thailand.

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Speaker 2: There is if I do the work in Thailand, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing any right. I've stayed really clear of

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Speaker 2: working in Thailand because that does bring up another thing.

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Speaker 2: Then I'm going to be subject to their tax and

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Speaker 2: I mean that's not I'm trying to avoid tax so much.

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Speaker 2: It's just another complication, another set of falls, another to

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Speaker 2: muddle up your life, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, As a result of streaming, it is much more

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Speaker 1: a worldwide business than ever before. And it's not dominated

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about music here, not dominated by American acts.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about movies. For a long time, big business

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Speaker 1: for Hollywood was export in China. Now it's more domestic

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Speaker 1: pictures in the rest of the world. Asia is your

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Speaker 1: area of focus. What do Americans in the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world not understand about what's going on in the

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Speaker 1: entertainment business.

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Speaker 2: Americans understand less than Europeans, that's for sure. Though in China.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you talk to people in the film

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Speaker 2: industry in America about China, of course they understand because

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Speaker 2: they got so close, they got so involved for a while.

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Speaker 2: They know to make a movie of success in China,

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Speaker 2: they have to have they have to bring in a

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Speaker 2: Chinese co producer or associate producer to consult with to

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Speaker 2: get the thing right. They've did that a lot. Two

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Speaker 2: or three years ago, they were doing it in every movie.

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Speaker 2: Now there's rather started to say let's forget Chinese market

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Speaker 2: for the moment, but you can't. It's vast. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the Chinese market alone will pay for your film. And

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Speaker 2: it's more looking the other way around. Can we fathom

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Speaker 2: what the Chinese really want from the American market? And

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Speaker 2: you know, if the economies are so huge and so

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Speaker 2: hopelessly interweld, it's ridiculous to think of Chinese as an enemy.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's the American way. You know, you're either

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Speaker 2: you're other part of us, or we're fighting with you.

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Speaker 2: But and there's it's always extraordinary in that you read

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Speaker 2: about the animosity between two countries, and you know the

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Speaker 2: violent disagreement about this and that, And also you're going

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Speaker 2: to find there are committees and people working between the

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Speaker 2: two countries very amicably and sensibly at exactly the same time.

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Speaker 2: And there's no doubt at all in my mind, I

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Speaker 2: don't have any fear at all. And there's been some

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Speaker 2: ultimate American Chinese conflict. You're intertwined enough with each other

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Speaker 2: in all in every aspect of all industries, manufacturing industries,

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Speaker 2: but essentially more important anything in the entertainment industry, that

360
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Speaker 2: you have to stay involved. And if you're intertwined in

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Speaker 2: the entertainment industry. You have a cross culturalization going on

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Speaker 2: the whole time. You understand each other better and better.

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Speaker 2: And I would say, you know, I still go to

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Speaker 2: China quite a lot, and it's increasing. Again. The problems

365
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Speaker 2: are over Chinese young people, even though they're pretty well

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Speaker 2: prevented from accessing Google and all the American ways of

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Speaker 2: finding out what's going on, they're very offa with what's

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Speaker 2: going on in America. They understand American culture very much

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Speaker 2: better than American kids understand Asian culture.

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Speaker 1: This may be a little bit off your radar, but

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Speaker 1: there's a burgeoning electric car business in China. They recently

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Speaker 1: went into in Indonesia and own the market. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's taxes now in Europe and in the US trying

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Speaker 1: to keep these people out. Once you leave China, to

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Speaker 1: what degree do you feel the presence of China, whether

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Speaker 1: it be ownership, business or whatever.

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Speaker 3: The company is doing the only way the ordinary person

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Speaker 3: feels it is the majority of cars on the road

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Speaker 3: in Southeast Asia, and not the majority.

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Speaker 2: A large number, but it's gone from a very small

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Speaker 2: number to a very large number. I think it probably

382
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Speaker 2: be only a year before the majority are Chinese built

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Speaker 2: and the same in Europe. It doesn't shock us because

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Speaker 2: we remember when all the cars and iron became I'm

385
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Speaker 2: very old, when all the cars in the road and

386
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Speaker 2: ignorant were British, and then the Japanese cars started coming in.

387
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Speaker 2: So now we're just being shocked. To my god, you know,

388
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Speaker 2: the Chinese. Who ever thought they'd build a car, there's

389
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Speaker 2: just a set of Japanese. You have Chinese, and we're

390
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Speaker 2: permanently frightened. Told we ought to be frightened because they

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Speaker 2: could suddenly turn off every car or you know, they

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Speaker 2: have a switch where they could make all the cars

393
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Speaker 2: drive off cliffs or die or whatever. But that's science

394
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 2: fiction and stuff, because you know that this sort of

395
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 2: this sort of communal every time you see people believe

396
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Speaker 2: that a huge number of people can get together secretly

397
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Speaker 2: and do something. You know, it's about anyone who's managed

398
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Speaker 2: a group. You know, you can't get five people degree

399
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 2: to do one thing. You don't get hundreds of people

400
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 2: around the world to do something dastardly deed, all at

401
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 2: once in total secret. So I doubt very much that

402
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Speaker 2: we have much to fear from Chinese cars other than

403
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: competition to the current industry, that's for sure.

404
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Speaker 1: Okay, to people starting out who want to be managers

405
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Speaker 1: in the music business, what would your advice.

406
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,959
Speaker 2: Be, Well, don't go to a school and learn how

407
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Speaker 2: to be a manager. I give talks a lot at universities,

408
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: and one of the first questions I asked is, you

409
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: know how many people here will actually want to go

410
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Speaker 2: in the music industry, because half the people in the

411
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: lecture will be taking it, of course, as a second course,

412
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Speaker 2: because they're actually going to be doctors or something had

413
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,719
Speaker 2: about you know, twenty thirty people have put their hand

414
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 2: that would say how many want to be managers? And

415
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 2: ten five ten, and I SI, you're wasting your time

416
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Speaker 2: sitting here. Even listening to me today is a waste

417
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Speaker 2: of time. You just get up or leave this room

418
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Speaker 2: and find someone to manage. Doesn't matter who they are,

419
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: they can be the worst, most untalented person. Ever. You

420
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: won't learn anything about management until you start managing somebody.

421
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: You find out that it's a relationship between two people.

422
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 2: A great manager with a great artist might move on

423
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 2: to find he never manages a good artist again. And

424
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,479
Speaker 2: you manage. It's a relationship. It has to work, and

425
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 2: you have to learn how to do how to have

426
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: that relationship with somebody. There's nothing a manager has to

427
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Speaker 2: do in terms of the business for his artist which

428
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 2: somebody else couldn't do for you. If you're a manager

429
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Speaker 2: and you don't know this, you don't but that you

430
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: may need to consult a lawyer or a publisher, an

431
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: expert in it. But that's what managements about. Management isn't

432
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 2: about knowing it, and management is about having the relationship

433
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: with the artist and taking from the artists the pressure

434
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 2: of dealing with an industry. And the sooner you start

435
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: doing it, the sooner you'll learn about it. And there's

436
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: nothing you learn about getting on with somebody other than

437
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: being with that person and finding out about it. So

438
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: first of all, go and find someone to manage good

439
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: or bad.

440
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you've managed household nme acts. Some acts stay with

441
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 1: the same manager their entire career. Some acts have had

442
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: multiple managers. To what degree when you manage an act,

443
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: are you worried about the act leaving you and to

444
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: what degree are you proactive to make sure that doesn't happen.

445
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: Well, everybody's different, So there's no generalization here because managers

446
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: have as many different personalities as there are people I've

447
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: never managed an act ever who I cared if they

448
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: left me, because managing an artist is a very, very

449
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 2: time consuming, emotional consuming thing. It's twenty four or seven.

450
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: It's not like any other job. I'm the person I

451
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: prefer projects. You know. The problem with management is it's

452
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 2: exactly that marriage. It doesn't stop. So you're never going

453
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: to get out of this until they leave you. And

454
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: so anytime an actor's left me for whatever I lose.

455
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: By them leaving me, I gain freedom. So it's never

456
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: bothered me any actors left me if thought, oh how lovely.

457
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: Now along with lovely, there's lots of income, loss of precision,

458
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: all those things. You have to balance them. But this

459
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: is me, it's not everybody else. And I do know

460
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 2: managers who are who go to great lengths to try

461
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: to make sure their groups can't leave them. By intertwining

462
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: their earnings together with the manager's earnings, that becomes difficult

463
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 2: to extract one from the other. By well, the classic

464
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: rock and roll one was to get hooked on drugs,

465
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: which you supply. That's a very tall true one. Nowadays,

466
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: it'd be more like to be a business involvement. Each

467
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: person's different. I just feel that if a group wants

468
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: to leave you, then you're not going to be able

469
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: to manage them. You know that the management contract can't

470
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: be held in law. I mean it's a personal services agreement.

471
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: Any personal services agreement can be broken. If you can

472
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: just establish their relationships, you can super damages. But if

473
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: you can establish the relationship is broken, you can walk

474
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: out out of a manager contract. Private side can walk

475
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: out of the other and then just super adapt for

476
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: damages the money which would have been earned that keep

477
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: the thing going. If you want to keep it going,

478
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: just make sure you keep it going. You know. Managers

479
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: start usually is almost saying the fingali sort of way

480
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 2: the artist comes to them and worship, saying, oh God,

481
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: this guy's wonderful. He's going to help you with this

482
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: and that, and he knows so much, and he's introducing

483
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: me to people, and he's getting me doers. He's making money.

484
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: But in the end of two or three years, the

485
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: manager will be a little more of the tea boy.

486
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: He may present to himself as something else. But as

487
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: the artist grows and makes money, and if he's been

488
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: well looked after by the manager and has good income,

489
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: the familiarity grows and the lack of necessity of that

490
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: manager grows. You know, the key, absolutely important thing a

491
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: manager does in their artist's life is break them. And

492
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: once the artist has broken, they can pretty well get

493
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 2: by without managers. They can hire key people, booking agents

494
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: and accountants, business advisors of all sorts, not have to

495
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: pay a percentage to sort of just pay the fees

496
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: required by those people. I'd only enjoy management at that level.

497
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: Every time I've broken a group, and to the very top,

498
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: I become bored because the fun is the challenge to

499
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: how you take this group into the industry, make the

500
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: industry work for the group, make the group successful. When

501
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 2: was excellent? Example once once they're the biggest group in

502
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: the world. What are you doing, You're just you're just

503
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 2: maintaining something. It's it's the difference between building a car

504
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 2: and driving a car. I like building them.

505
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: Okay, some managers have contracts. Some managers don't. What's your

506
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: philosophy there.

507
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: Well don't don't. I'll tell you why you agree. What's

508
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: going to It's a change of email saying I'm going

509
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: to get twenty percent just that and put down seven

510
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 2: or eight key points that's enough. Don't have a contract.

511
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: You have a contract one day sometime with anybody you're

512
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: with the whole time. Remember you, if you're managing a

513
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: group mup before or five, you only got to have

514
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: a conflict with one of them. And this will happen

515
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: if they go to the lawyer. We don't like Simon.

516
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: He made us nasty joke yesterday. He farted when im

517
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: golfriend was present, some stupid little thing. Just get rid

518
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: of my I hate him. And the lawyer says, well,

519
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: you can't get rid of the marriage because he farted.

520
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: You know you fart too. Think of something. Oh, I'll

521
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: say he was rude to my mother. That's not right.

522
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: Say he stole some money. Oh okay, we're saying sells

523
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 2: some money. And so the lawyer makes up some incredible,

524
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: terrible thing, because that's the lawyer's job to get the

525
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: artist out of the management contract. And the letter comes

526
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: and that insenses the manager. This is a complete lie.

527
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: I didn't do that. So he goes to his lawyer.

528
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: Within two days, during a conflict which will never be resolved,

529
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: you now hate each other, and the lawyers are very actress.

530
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: You continue to hate each other because there any money

531
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: from you. If you don't have a contract, they don't

532
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 2: have to do that. They just say you're fired and

533
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: they go home to bed. But next day they wake

534
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: up and think it's a bit difficult about Simon. I'll

535
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: call them up and see if I can make up.

536
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: So they call up and you say, sorry about last night.

537
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: That's okay, no contract, no conflict.

538
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: Okay, but what about sunset clauses and collecting revenues for

539
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: your percentage on things you're involved in.

540
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: Get on with something else. I'm not a normal This

541
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: is very American, but it is true. Americans are far

542
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: more concerned with money than Europeans, but plenty of Europeans

543
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: are too. I love money. Who doesn't have money. It's

544
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: great to have money, but I've never done anything to

545
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: make money. Money is that money is a lovely bonus

546
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: and doing things I enjoyed doing. And you know, if

547
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: people leave you say actually going your an initial little

548
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: agreement looking email the exchange. If you leave you I'll

549
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: take ten percent of our half the commission for the

550
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: next year. Thing I've fixed and I said, don't pay you.

551
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: They don't pay you. You know when people cheat me,

552
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: I don't go to court. I just say, is somebody,

553
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: don't do it again the rest of your life. There's

554
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: other things you can do.

555
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning of what you said

556
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: about management relationships. Is that something DNA? Is it something

557
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: you can work on to what degree is that involved

558
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: with who to choose to manage or is it come

559
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: after that? Tell me more about establishing the relationship.

560
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: I think it comes after that. You know that there's

561
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: an instinctive thing because it's music to want to manage

562
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: somebody who makes music you like. You know, if you

563
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: if I go to a club and sometimes guys playing

564
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: brilliant piano like oscapedis cross up. I'll have to manage

565
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: this guy. But I'm also you know, a business guan.

566
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: I look at it, well, you're not going to make

567
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: your money. You know, I need some teenager can hard

568
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: this thing, but looks straight and attracts girls. So see,

569
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: it isn't the immediate attraction musically. It's something more complex

570
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: than that. And often it's not not an immediate traction

571
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: in personality. I mean, if there's ammsia, dislike or revulsion insary,

572
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: it's not going to not going to work. But if

573
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: someone is a bit cool, a bit bland, a bit uninteresting.

574
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: But the project looks good, the music looks good. It's

575
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: worth getting to know that there are very few people

576
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: who really are uninteresting. I mean, you know, if anywhere

577
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: in the world you get the taxi and talk, you're

578
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: going to find something interesting to talk about with anybody.

579
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: They're always going to have some experience you haven't had.

580
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: So it's proactive you need to learn. The other thing

581
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: is no major performing artist ever. I used to say

582
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: ninety percent, but no, it have never come across it.

583
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: Every major performing artist was driven to become that by

584
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: some sort of trauma, some sort of traveler in their childhood,

585
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: some sort of angst which happened when they were young.

586
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: It might be the death of a parent or sibling,

587
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: or even a pet if they weren't given enough sympathy

588
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: for it. Or it could be much worse. It could

589
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: be some sort of child abuse. Something drives them into themselves,

590
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 2: makes them lonely. They didn't get love at a point

591
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 2: in their need, didn't get loved to someone they needed

592
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: it from a point in their life when they needed it,

593
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: and they were retreating to themselves. Being creative. It sort

594
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: of helps a permanent, nagging, mental upset in them, and

595
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: they're desperate for the love of an audience, and that's

596
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: that's what it's about. And there's no everybody you see

597
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: who's successful on stage. You go into their past, you

598
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: look at it, and that happened. I used to say,

599
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: it's ninety percent. I've never come across the ten percent

600
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: I'm allowing. Isn't like that. It's always there once you

601
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: look at it, and the manager is taking that on.

602
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 2: You know, don't think you're going to be a manager

603
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: and avoid that. That angst to upset and permanently unsettled

604
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: mental state the artist has is going to be given

605
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: to you to deal with, and you have to accept it,

606
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: enjoy having that problem. I suppose, I mean to some degree.

607
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: I suppose managers who are good must have some aspect

608
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: of what analysis has. There must be something in the

609
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: knownergy's background which which makes them sympathize and understand that

610
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: where it's not so acute. So perhaps even by being managers,

611
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: we're giving ourselves some sort of therapy. Possibly I haven't

612
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: delved into that too much, but it's very likely and

613
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: the best, the best managers. It's very interesting, you know,

614
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: you look at Roger who managed, who managed Tina Turner?

615
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: Roger Davis, Roger Davis man he managed three other major artists.

616
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: Everyone has the same background. Do you think Roger Davis

617
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: doesn't have the same background? I never even looked. Every

618
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: one of them had divorce spirits. I'm sure Roger Davis

619
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: had difficult and at least parents who fought. You know

620
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: that there must be some similarity. The pain or the

621
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: hurts or the room the results of the pain isn't

622
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: so acute and the manager, but I'm sure that understanding

623
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 2: of that emotional distress must be their managers successful managers.

624
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I one hundred percent agree with you on the acts,

625
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: but I take it one step further. The act is

626
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: looking for the love that they didn't get from their

627
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: family unit. Usually they become ultra successful. They have money,

628
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: they have relationships, they have houses, they have cars, but

629
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: they're still not happy. And once they realize that they

630
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: can never make another hit record. Can you comment on that?

631
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: Well, still, as long as they're not happy, they'll probably

632
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 2: gone making hit records. The problem is that they get happy.

633
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: You know, I mean your blobby to manager, why don't

634
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: you help your artists? Why don't you centered a psychiatrist, Well,

635
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: we do, and they're nearly all bipolar are They're given

636
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 2: medication and the medication helps me. But you know, by

637
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: the time an artist is twenty five or thirty, he

638
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: is used to his is a disability. It's like being

639
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: partly blind or not having a limb. Learn to live

640
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: with it. They enjoy their disabilities. You know, many blind

641
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: people don't want to be given sights. You know, it's

642
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: extraordinary for people like us to believe that, but you know,

643
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: there are people who are deaf who don't want to

644
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: be given hearing, and people who are blind who don't

645
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: want the sight to be given to them, and people

646
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: live with it. Learn to love their disabilities. We have. Look,

647
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: we've all got some sort of disability as some sort

648
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: if you look into yourself and own up with some quirk,

649
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: something which you makes you a better person if you

650
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: didn't have it, but you like it. You learn to

651
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: live with it. And they enjoy their mental distress if

652
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 2: you like. They enjoy being able to deal with it.

653
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: They get medication for the help their bipolarism, but they

654
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: take it. They're not very creative, so they don't take it,

655
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: and then they have creative periods and then they're out

656
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: of their heads, so they do take it. Yeah, a

657
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: lot of people stop taking their bipolar medicine to be creative,

658
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: and then once they've created the basic outline of what

659
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: they want to do song wise or whatever it is,

660
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: they go back to taking it so they can now

661
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: edit it and polish it in a calmer form. The

662
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: difficulty for managers. If you really went to work improving

663
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: the mental health of your artists until they were completely

664
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: completely boring, they would be completely boring. There would be

665
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: no music. So I think you're wrong about that. As

666
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: long as they're still unhappy, they'll still make music. You know,

667
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: when you creating two artists is like taking an aspirint

668
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: or something ball stronger than harassment. It is at the

669
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: moment it soothes the distress.

670
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go to the half of what I said.

671
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: Only musical trends can change. But why do most acts

672
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: have a active, successful career and don't have a recording

673
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: hit thereafter?

674
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: I think that's the public. I think the public like

675
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: artists at a certain point, a certain projection. You know

676
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: what when you create, when you create a record and

677
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: it's a huge shit ah, it's very this instance, quite

678
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: a long time ago that twenty years guys asked back

679
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: to work for Shelly Bassy, and I thought it's a

680
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: great idea. Yes, times she made another record and I

681
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: went off and found a couple of records. You want

682
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: to make a record. But it was very clear, very quickly,

683
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: that nobody wanted to record for her. But this was

684
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: an artist who went out for one hundred thousand pounds

685
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: a night, and I'm talking a long time ago. This

686
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 2: is huge, huge money. And continue to she could get

687
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: many many months or years ahead as you wanted. And

688
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: yet it was quite clear nobody was going to make

689
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 2: another record, but a successful record with so we buy.

690
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: We fall in love with an artist with a certain imagery,

691
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: a certain moment, a certain pain or aura which surrounds them,

692
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: and that's what we want, that's what we like. We're stuck.

693
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: We don't think of you name anassist to most of them.

694
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 2: We think of only only in that period. Very very

695
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: few transcend it. Some do, some do, at least for

696
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: life work they do. I mean, we love Mick Jagger

697
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: being eighty, it's extraordinary, but we do. I actually like

698
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: watching Mick Jagger at eighty now that I used to

699
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: love him when he was twenty five or thirty, but

700
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 2: I actually enjoy watching this old man is so utterly

701
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: brilliant on stage, and Bruce Springsteen the same mid seventies.

702
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: I like him at that. You're saying, now, can he

703
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: make a successful record? It's very difficult because that the

704
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: market which wanted that successful record as a market for

705
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: the same age as he was when you made it,

706
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: and we're not. It's the market which is the problem.

707
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 2: We're not receptive to a record by an old man.

708
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back once again to the relationship. I

709
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: know of household name acts who fired their manager because

710
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 1: the manager didn't come out on the road, didn't come

711
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: out on the opening gig. To what degree? As a

712
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: manager you thinking that, you know, there's some act you're

713
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: connecting with multiple times a day. Other acts, you say,

714
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: I better call them or email them text in these days,

715
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: I better maintain the relationship otherwise is going to be

716
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: a bad result.

717
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: It's a difficult one, Bob. If you if you want,

718
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: if you once start going to every gig by an artist,

719
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 2: that's what you're going to do the rest of your life,

720
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 2: you know, And and you don't be on the road.

721
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 2: Is that you've got tour manager for that, and that's

722
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 2: a waste of a manager's time. The same you know,

723
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: an artists on has complained why you've got two acts. Well,

724
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 2: every single contact I have anywhere in the world, through

725
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: any means, is a benefit to my management of you.

726
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: And you're going to benefit from you having two or

727
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: three or four us a'smare contact. But not to go

728
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: to an opening night, not to go with an a

729
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 2: portant event, not to turn up say once every five

730
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: or six gigs, that's really stupid too. And of course

731
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: they want to see you there. They're like you, they

732
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: support you, they feel more confident when you're around. They

733
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: want to tell you what problems they've had since you

734
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: were last around. I think not to go at all

735
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 2: is completely foolish, and to go all the time is

736
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: just it's not a benefit to anyone and it or

737
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: where you are and it will be an over familiarity

738
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: they don't want you will end up as a tea boy.

739
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: Then, But how about other means of communication? Do you say, oh,

740
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: I haven't heard from so and so in three days,

741
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: I better make contact.

742
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, assess them all you know, if you think

743
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: he's really happy that he hasn't heard from you for

744
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: three days, perhaps you leave alone for a bit. But look,

745
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: it's now different from a marriage, is it. You know,

746
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: you go away for two days and normally you don't

747
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: like to travel together, and know you're going to go

748
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: where somewhere on business two days, and actually you realize

749
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: you're both going to enjoy it. She's going to go

750
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: off with her girlfriends or do something. You're going to

751
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: be doing something different, and you make a judgment. Shall

752
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: I call the next day? Oh that's just too much?

753
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: Come on, we're together three hundred and sixty five days

754
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 2: a year. Surely two days apart will be nice. Enjoy

755
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: it and how many days do you let that go?

756
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 2: It's no difference. It's exactly the same group. And this

757
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: is the next Really a thing about managing a group

758
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: is you're managing four or five people and they're completely different.

759
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: One person in that group is going to be the

760
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: real classic artist type we're talking about who's driven the group,

761
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 2: who creates a group has got this huge angst hanging

762
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: over him, who's mentally disturbed, who has driven to be

763
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: performed because of something that's happened in Chanted. The other

764
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: three or four may be nothing more than just very

765
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: good craftsmen who surround him well and give him company,

766
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: who plays superbly well and wouldn't play so well without

767
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: him there. But they're not the same type of personality.

768
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: And you usually get one person in the group who

769
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: is an incredibly difficult mona, I mean, who dislikes everything

770
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: and grumbles. They may not be that important musically, but

771
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: they might be important glue to the group, and you

772
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: have to deal with all of them and say you're

773
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: dealing with their internal conflicts or thinking what's best for

774
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: each of them. You know, it's not as simple as

775
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: go and see the group five people. It may well

776
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 2: be talking to each one of them separately, some of

777
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: them more often than others.

778
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: Okay, you've traveled the world, You've written books, you have

779
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: a great number of relationships. Did you consciously establish those

780
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: or is it just a matter of the people you

781
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: worked with that you maintain the relationships? How did you

782
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 1: hate to use this term? How did you grow your network?

783
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: Wow? Travel eating out to me? I mean, you know,

784
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 2: I wrote a book. I'm coming to take you to lunch,

785
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: And I've often said that I did I think for

786
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: twenty or thirty years, I thought lunch was the key

787
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 2: thing to the music industry. Not eating. I mean, you know,

788
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: it's being in a restaurant. It's it's you go to

789
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 2: lunch and you're with somebody, you discuss something, very amicable surroundings,

790
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: you see other people, You call over to the other tatorle, hello,

791
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 2: you know what's going on? We must get together, we

792
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: see each other. It's the most casual way to expand

793
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 2: your relationship without without you know, being introduced to someone

794
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 2: is too is too sincere, too difficult to Now we've

795
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: got to sit down and talk because he's that man

796
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: just introduces. We've got to say something meaningful. You know,

797
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 2: I don't much like this guy, or maybe I could

798
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: like him in other sectences. But lunch, talking across for it,

799
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: talking across the restaurant, going to table or table, being

800
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: with the person you're with, it is to me it's

801
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: a finitive way of growing networks. It's not quick. You

802
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 2: can't do it for two weeks and suddenly have a network.

803
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: But you've done it for fifty years, you end up

804
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: knowing an awful lot of people. And I would have

805
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: thought half of all the people I know in the

806
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: music industry, I first met somewhere at a meal or

807
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: a dinner, and I probably wasn't having that dinner with

808
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: them through somebody I was there. Other people do it

809
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: by going to music business events, but I don't like

810
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 2: music business events. I've often actually said I don't quite

811
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: mean it, but I do mean it too. I've never

812
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: felt part of the music industry. I think what I

813
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: mean is I often haven't felt part of the music industry.

814
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 2: But the music industry is it's very split into two things.

815
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: Anything I've gone to a record I've said, anything I've

816
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: gone to a record company, I felt I was visiting

817
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: the music industry. When I left the record company, I

818
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: thought I was leaving the music industry. I've always felt that.

819
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: You know, the music industry is really two, two completely

820
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: different sections. So there is the corporate section, and the

821
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: corporate section would be the majors with Sony and Water

822
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: and Universal. Probably the collection Society is probably William Morris CIA.

823
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: And that is they're always like the government. That's that's

824
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 2: the civil service, that's the government. They set the rules,

825
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: this is how they do things. All they're interested in money. Yes,

826
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: they talk about music. But actually they don't give a

827
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 2: damn about music. They get about money, about making it work,

828
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 2: about huge amounts of money generates, and that's that's fine,

829
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 2: because that's the money we all need. That's the money

830
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: that the industry has and generates, and we other creative

831
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: forty percent can use. So they like the government. And

832
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: who wants to work for the government. It's not that

833
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: you don't need a government. We need a government. We

834
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: want a government, but there are there are an unelected

835
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: government unless you choose to wiegle you away and become

836
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: part of it. And the creative part of the industry

837
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: is what I love, the scams and the fun and

838
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: the music. But you know, the music and the scams

839
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 2: are equally fun because no major artist has ever been made,

840
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: or built or created without scams. The idea that the

841
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: Rolling Stones would have had hits just with the music,

842
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: without the imagery and things Andrew who Golden did with them,

843
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: or the Beatles could have had their hits without the

844
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 2: look and their hairstyle and the suits. Every major artist,

845
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: even the ones you think are the most austere or unscammed,

846
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 2: where a combination of image and music. That is how

847
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: the industry works. And I can't think of any act

848
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: I've ever seen where the music alone solved the act.

849
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: It was always the image with the music, and where

850
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: you think it wasn't the image, you think again, as

851
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: it was the lack of obvious flamboyance in the image

852
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 2: which made it, or always as a combination.

853
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: Okay, you're a manager, what can you tell us about

854
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: the personality of someone who works for a label or agency?

855
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: The soul called myr quotes government.

856
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: Well, usually their dream of leaving and getting their independence

857
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 2: and using what they've learned to work as an independent

858
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: outside of it. And often they do and they don't

859
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: get more interesting. They they either were boring to start with,

860
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: or the corporation has taking the edge off their soul.

861
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: Within the corporations, there are always one or two people who, really,

862
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: in my use of we don't belong in corporations. They dominate,

863
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: they take over, They run corporations in a way which

864
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: is so flamboyant that they really should have belonged to

865
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 2: the forty percent, you know, the water yetnikov or the God.

866
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: I'd leave us some people that they they're huge personalities

867
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: and they didn't need to be corporate. But the bulk

868
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: of the corporation are corporate, and they're dull, and they

869
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 2: depend on salaries, and they're not if they're cast off

870
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: from that their own functional world and tomorrow function well

871
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 2: within the corporation. It's either I find it very difficult

872
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: to get any joy from being in a corporation. At

873
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 2: the same time, I don't dislike them. We use them.

874
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: And the outside of the managers, the ultimate outside, goes

875
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 2: into the corporation to raid it. I mean, you go in,

876
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: you have to learn to manipulate it. A half of

877
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: your artists. And the other interesting fact, of course is

878
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: whereas managers never join the corporate world, the artists do.

879
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 2: The artists sign a contract with the corporate world, agreeing

880
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: to enter into it, become a part of everything they

881
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 2: ostensibly don't like. So the artists get tied into the

882
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: corporate world and the way the managers don't and compromise

883
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: every big artist. The idea that the artists don't compromise,

884
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: it's absurd. The bigger the artists is, the more they've compromised.

885
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: Because the artist needs the industry to make them what

886
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: they are, they're not going to get that audience they

887
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 2: need and crave so much without the industry doing it

888
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: for them. So the artists are the people who compromise.

889
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: There are many, many great singers and players and musicians

890
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: who are not big stars because they didn't compromise. So

891
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: it's the idea. The artist doesn't compromise, it's disrupt The

892
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 2: manager's there to oversee the degree of compromise, to help

893
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 2: the decrease the compromise, to keep them away from going

894
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: too far, and helping them get into it when they

895
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: don't want to.

896
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: You talk about not feeling like you're a part of

897
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: the music industry, is that a result of the role

898
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: the manager independent or is that your personality which comes

899
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: from your background.

900
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 2: My personality, for sure, I like being an outsider, you know,

901
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 2: I felt that about everything. You know. People say, is

902
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 2: it because you're gay? No, because it's going to help

903
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 2: feel part of the gay world. I mean I don't

904
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: like being part of it. Well, I don't like parties,

905
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: as you know. Well, when when Live Aid took place,

906
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: George was going to go and sing there, Andrew's going

907
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: to go and stay singing with him. All the managers

908
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: were told they could come. Everybody had to go by

909
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: helicopter because the roads are going to be blocked up

910
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 2: to Wembley all day. We had all been a helicopter

911
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: at ten o'clock in the morning and it would go

912
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,959
Speaker 2: on till ten in the evening. And I just thought,

913
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: what an absolute fucking notemare I'm going to be stuck

914
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: for ten hours with all these people, can't go anywhere,

915
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: and you're backstage and they're going to be talking rubbish

916
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: and taking a caine and they'll be ghastly catering. You know,

917
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm not going there. I want nothing to

918
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: do with it. So I didn't go. That sort of

919
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: titrifies because you know, I missed something which is an

920
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: incredible occasion. I should have been it, but it just

921
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: looked horrible to me.

922
00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: Okay, in the book about your career, sour Mouth Sweet Bottom,

923
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about Armed, Armed or it again.

924
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: Can you tell us some stories there.

925
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 2: I loved the guy and he was not a corporate guy,

926
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: and it was extraordinary how he got dragged into the

927
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: corporate world. But he didn't. I mean he really he

928
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: worked within it and stayed out of it. He was

929
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 2: just he was as unusual for Americans in the music industry.

930
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 2: He was bilingual, he knew art books, was the most

931
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: sophisticated European style person. And that made him very agreeable

932
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: to me. And and he loved music, and he loved

933
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: the scam and the and the difficulty and that. You know,

934
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 2: he was more interested in going out with Mick Jagger

935
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: every night for a year to persuade him to sign

936
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: with the label than he was with having him on

937
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 2: the label. If you see what I mean. It was

938
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 2: the chase, it was the fun. There were more stories

939
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 2: revolving around the army was what's that wonderful story when

940
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: arm it one night and he calls up Mick and says, Mick,

941
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to a party and mix it up. But

942
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: he'll come on, Mick, come to a party with me,

943
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: and so mix it okay? Is this after midnight? I'll

944
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: go to a party with you. There isn't a party,

945
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: so it's got to creative party, you know. So he

946
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: calls up Share and Shares and says, Share, we're going

947
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: to come around and see you. And Shares just started

948
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 2: an affair with with with David. What's not God? Wasn't

949
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 2: it gay? David? Please tell me the the.

950
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,479
Speaker 1: Well I'm thinking of Greg allman, I'm thinking of you know.

951
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: The guy, and Share has just started an affair with

952
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: David Geffing is something in the straight period?

953
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: Okay?

954
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so arm It calls up to Share and says,

955
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: we're coming round. We're coming around for a drink and

956
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: Shares where it's two in the morning. I says, yeah, well,

957
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: what's wrong with that. Let's go around, And so Arbit

958
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 2: takes Mick around and some drunken countess he's found somewhere

959
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 2: else in the restaurant and they all turn up at

960
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: Shares place, and Shares somehow got herself together and come down, says,

961
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 2: and David gifts and say're looking very grumpy because they

962
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: just got into bed, and Army says. Arvid says to David,

963
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: uh get the champagne out, And David said, we hadn't

964
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 2: got there, and hit says, well, we never had that

965
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 2: problem where Sonny was here? Is there a sums up Arbit?

966
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 2: You know, he was out every night all night and

967
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 2: what he what he liked when anything else was being

968
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 2: able to walk into a corporate meeting at Warners at

969
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: nine in the morning or nine thirty in the morning,

970
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: a big meeting something you know, the monthly really important meeting,

971
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: and he'd been out all night drinking, drugging, listen to music, dancing,

972
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: and he could walk in and be as sharp and

973
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: as effective as all the others he enjoyed. He enjoyed

974
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: that more than anything else.

975
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: And what about yetnikov.

976
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: Look if I knew less well, manual quite well, but

977
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 2: he was less. He was just so he was just

978
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 2: so explosively. He loved his Jewishness and throwing out and

979
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 2: I always liked that. So, you know, I've got this

980
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: deficiency that I wasn't Jewish. I would loved to have

981
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 2: added the whole Jewish culture to all the things I am.

982
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 2: They have been gays great, but to have been Jewish,

983
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: imn have to be black and crippled and any anything

984
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 2: which will give you another another view of life. But

985
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 2: I was brought up, you know. I went to the

986
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: film Inustry when I was eighteen, and to everybody in

987
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 2: the film store, I was working with the Jewish. So

988
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 2: all day you were hearing Yiddish and Jewish jokes and

989
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 2: Jewish humor. And it seemed to me the way music

990
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 2: show business should be rung, you know, So I like that,

991
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: so very felt very comfortable around around Walter, and because

992
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: he's spent a long time with Alan Grabman, who was

993
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: another another person saying they'd spend hours on the found

994
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: together just just talking bullshit together, swearing and just saying.

995
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: And he talked in that he talked in a way

996
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 2: it wasn't really him, which so many people in that

997
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: position to, you know. He said, yeah, we got to

998
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 2: fuck the artists. We've got you know, we fucked the

999
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: artists before they fuck us. We've got to get this

1000
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: go that. And of course he wasn't inside. He wasn't

1001
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 2: like that at all. He loved artists. It was just

1002
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: marcho businessman talk, but he was. He did get mad.

1003
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: He out of control for years. I'm like, go to

1004
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 2: New York and have a meeting, and after as I

1005
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: go upstairs and see his water around there, said yeah,

1006
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: go and just walk in and see water. And he'd

1007
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 2: be putting cocaine in his vodka and it's only eleven

1008
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 2: in the morning, and he'd sit there and say, who

1009
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: can I know? You know, who can I and who

1010
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 2: can I call up? Bloody David Gef And I don't

1011
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: like that. I got to call him out. He him

1012
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 2: called people up and just say things out of the

1013
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: blue to absolutely infuriate them. You know, David, we were

1014
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 2: pulling the record. We're not putting it out. You know.

1015
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,760
Speaker 2: He held the phone out. Let me hear David explain,

1016
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 2: and he said, as okay, we'll put it out. He

1017
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 2: had he was a wicked schoolboy, he really was.

1018
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You're born in

1019
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 1: the late thirties. Are you aware of World War two?

1020
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: And what degree does the war in the aftermath affect

1021
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: you as a person.

1022
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 2: Very late thirties, ninety thirty nine. Before the war started,

1023
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 2: it started shortly afterwards. I was worried war because from

1024
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 2: the age of two we were shipped out of London

1025
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 2: because it wasn't safe, and so my mother and my

1026
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: sister and I went to dev just quiet little Enclaven

1027
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 2: by the sea, and my mother, both my mother and

1028
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 2: my father had been orphans. Both in both cases they

1029
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 2: were brought up by my mother by aunts and my

1030
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: father by by justice mother, and they didn't know how

1031
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 2: to be parents. So I don't be in that in

1032
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: a bad way. It's a wonderful work. There was no costting,

1033
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 2: there was no over control, and two or three I

1034
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 2: look back and think, this really couldn't be possible. It

1035
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: was possible because it had to be that year, because

1036
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 2: it was in that place, which meant it was ninety

1037
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 2: forty two or forty three. I could go out by

1038
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 2: myself and go for walks at two or three years old,

1039
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: and my mother tells stories about how it would come

1040
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 2: to this. We were staying in a boarding house. You know,

1041
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 2: boarding houses, Lunch is one till one point thirty. If

1042
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: you're not there, there's no lunch, and this is wartime.

1043
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 2: If you don't eat lunch, there's no food, el sweat,

1044
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: that's it. You know, they've got rations. And it come

1045
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: to one o'clock and I wasn't there, and she'd run

1046
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 2: outside to see where I was, and she couldn't find me.

1047
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,919
Speaker 2: She'd run down the road around and then she would

1048
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 2: get to the beach, which was ten minutes away, and

1049
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 2: I'd be sitting on the further out rock, sitting gazing

1050
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: out and see dreaming. You know, couldn't have been more

1051
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 2: than three years old. This is acceptable in those days.

1052
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: Parents allowed their children to wander off and fend for themselves.

1053
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 2: So I was doing that by three or four. You

1054
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 2: can imagine how independent I was for the time I

1055
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 2: was five or six. They gave me a when the

1056
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 2: war was over. I think it was my sixth birthday.

1057
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 2: I was given a bicycle for my birthday and I

1058
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: cycled to school and at weekends I could go out

1059
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: all day at six years old. So after breakfast I'd

1060
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: take the bike as long as I was back by

1061
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,919
Speaker 2: six o'clock in the evening, so I had ten hours.

1062
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: So I worked out how far I could cycle in

1063
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: five hours, and I go there. I'd be given a

1064
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 2: sandwich when I got there and eat my sandwich and

1065
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 2: cycle back again and so over the next year. The

1066
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 2: time I was six or seven, I've been everywhere around

1067
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:54,439
Speaker 2: London where you could cycle in five hours and seven

1068
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 2: years old eight years old doing this nowadays prison. I

1069
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: think parents would go to prison for allowing that to happen.

1070
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: There was a very funny situation when I was I

1071
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 2: think I was eight, and I really wanted to go further.

1072
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 2: I was bored with the five out limit, and one

1073
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: day I just started out cycled Waxford, which is well

1074
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 2: over the limit, and I didn't get there to four

1075
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 2: in the afternoon. It was really going to be in trouble,

1076
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 2: and so I went to the local police station and

1077
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 2: I walked in very sweet, and I was eight year

1078
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 2: old boy pushing his bike and said, excuse me, I've

1079
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: been a very naughty boy. And the policeman looked at

1080
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: what have you done, sonny, And I said, well, I'm

1081
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 2: allowed to go cycle five hours and I've become too

1082
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 2: far and it's four o'clock and I can't get home.

1083
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, well, my colleague is driving down

1084
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: to London half an hour. He'll take you. And they

1085
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 2: put the bike in the truck of the car and

1086
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 2: they drove me down and then he stopped at the

1087
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 2: end of my road so my parents wouldn't see the

1088
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 2: police car. I'd be home by six o'clock. That's coercion.

1089
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: Everybody loved little kids in those days. There was no

1090
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 2: There was no feeling that I needed, but protection left

1091
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: people get out and live their lives. By eleven or twelve,

1092
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 2: I was going to jazz clubs in London and allowed

1093
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: to go.

1094
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: Okay. America in the fifties was burgeoning. Of course, there

1095
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 1: was racism, etc. But economically burgeoning. You talk to people

1096
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: in England there were still rations. There might not be chocolate.

1097
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: Were you feeling that lack? Were you envying America? Would

1098
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: you do only realized it was bad when it got good?

1099
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: What was your mindset back then in the fifties.

1100
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 2: I don't think America came into our thinking much. That.

1101
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: Having said that, I remember in my scenes, I got

1102
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 2: quite good at making money when I was eleven or

1103
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 2: twelve the music business. I started in the music business

1104
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 2: at eleven. I joined the church chop. The local church

1105
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 2: had a choir, and if you sang in the church

1106
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 2: service on a Sunday you got penny. You could be

1107
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: the morning service or the evening service, you got one penny.

1108
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 2: But where you made money is when there were weddings.

1109
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 2: And on Saturdays there were weddings, and if you were

1110
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: in the choir for the wedding, you could get a shilling.

1111
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: And I was quite good, and I got to sing

1112
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: the solo one week, and for singing the solo at

1113
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: the wedding, you've got two shots, and they gave me

1114
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 2: six months tips. So I want to put it in

1115
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 2: new money because it's still in his sense, but it's

1116
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 2: quite good money then. And I remember one time, so

1117
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: I sang this out as well. So let me sing

1118
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 2: the sellar. So now I was thinking weddings. There was

1119
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: the there's two weddings on a Saturday. You had to

1120
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 2: go to the Sunday service to be allowed to do

1121
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 2: the wedding. So it was an hour and Sunday at

1122
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: the service for a penny, and then two weddings of

1123
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 2: a Sunday for four shillings, and then you get a

1124
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,919
Speaker 2: little bit tips, so five shillings. This is good money.

1125
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: This is double what most kids would get for pocket money.

1126
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: And then one day I had a cold and the

1127
01:01:58,080 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 2: choir master was very strict. If you had a cold,

1128
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 2: you must tell him and you you wouldn't be allowed

1129
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: to sing. Everybody get the cold. And I didn't tell him,

1130
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 2: and the solo sang it was the Lord's My Shepherd,

1131
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 2: the Stanford version, which ends on a high note. Little

1132
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 2: chorus to boy goes up to this very high note,

1133
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: and I got my voice cracked with then some network

1134
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 2: pulled off the high note despite the crack, and everything's

1135
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 2: finished beautiful, and no mag the young couple getting married,

1136
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 2: you know, thought, oh God, a beautiful solo at our

1137
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: wedding's going to be terrible, and then no, it wasn't.

1138
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 2: It was beautiful. I finished with the lovely note, and

1139
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: they gave me five shillings tip. That's a double a

1140
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: whole week's pocket and just for the tip. So every

1141
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 2: time I sang the solo in Future, I always cracked

1142
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 2: on the last note and then brought it right. So

1143
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: I made a lot of money and then my voice broke,

1144
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: So that was the end of that.

1145
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you were going to school, Were you popular? Were

1146
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: you a lonerre you're a good student? Were you involved

1147
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: in sports? What was that like?

1148
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 2: Nah? I wasn't. I wasn't popular or unpopular. I'd been

1149
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 2: my parents because of my father's precumia politics. Income had

1150
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 2: gone up and down. He was a documentary film director

1151
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 2: and that was a pretty left wing sort of job,

1152
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 2: so it didn't matter that he was passionately Communist, and

1153
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 2: of course he confusably he talked posh. I mean, he

1154
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: sounded like, you know, he just came out of Oxford University.

1155
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 2: But things went up and down a bit financially, and

1156
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 2: I started off after the war. Who came up to London.

1157
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 2: I went to a very prosh private prep school and

1158
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 2: then after a year the money ran out, so I

1159
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: was sent to the local government school, which was horrific

1160
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 2: for me. It was horrific, and I ride with the

1161
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 2: wrong accent, because accents in England at everything, you know,

1162
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 2: way more important than America. So they said, you know,

1163
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 2: what's your what's your name? And I said that Napier Bell.

1164
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 2: And that was after the toilet with me head down,

1165
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 2: the toilet kicked my ass flash of the toilet until

1166
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: I could so I was not your bell, Simon, not

1167
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: your bell. But then everything's all right then for a while.

1168
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 2: And then my dad made some more money and they

1169
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,959
Speaker 2: decided I ought to go to a private school again

1170
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: because my education was getting had so arrived at the

1171
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 2: private school and they say, what's your name? I said, Simon,

1172
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 2: not your bell, and back off the toilet. You know,

1173
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: posh kids is just as nasty naster kids. And very

1174
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: soon I'd managed to become Simon Napier Bell. Okay, so

1175
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: you change your accent all the time. So the time

1176
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 2: I got to public school, I'd done that four times.

1177
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: Public school being of course private school, the boarding school,

1178
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: and so I'd learned to fit in. So I was

1179
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 2: never liked or disliked. I was not aware of friends

1180
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 2: being naturally friends in the most cases, just you knew

1181
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,439
Speaker 2: how to I knew how to avoid having my butt kicked.

1182
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 2: And that's sort of about being nice to people but

1183
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: not really liking them. And I think I didn't have

1184
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 2: much of who I liked or disliked it. There's just

1185
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 2: who might kick my butt and who wouldn't you know,

1186
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 2: and then the ones who would how to avoid them,

1187
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 2: making them do it and make them like the actual friends.

1188
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 2: I probably only had two of three that I said

1189
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 2: were real friends, and we're still friends after school when

1190
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 2: I left, And I guess sure surely set me in

1191
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 2: a good stead for being a manager. You know where

1192
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: you've got to give the absolute middle ground between the

1193
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 2: record company, which is rapacious corporate money making and the

1194
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: artist who sort of wants to have a more delicate

1195
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: sensitivity and create music was excellent training. The best managers

1196
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 2: all seemed to come from some sort of training in

1197
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: being middle ground. I mean, being gay too, is something

1198
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 2: where you learn to present to faces just for your

1199
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: own security. And or Miles Copeland, who is wonderful background

1200
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 2: because his dad was the guy who invented CIA and

1201
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 2: you said all over the world. So Miles every single

1202
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 2: year found himself at a new school and a new

1203
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 2: country with a language, and so he was so good

1204
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: at making sure kids accepted him and you could get

1205
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 2: in without getting hurt. It turned out to be a

1206
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 2: brilliant manager.

1207
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: What came first, Your career is a trumpeter or your

1208
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: career in the film business?

1209
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 2: Trumpeter. I was obsessed with jazz. I got a trumpet

1210
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 2: for Christmas month. My brother got a trumpet for Christmas

1211
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 2: and couldn't learn it, didn't even try to learn it.

1212
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 2: Gave it to me. And at pop music we're talking

1213
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty one, pop music was appalling. It was all

1214
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 2: it was all Mitch Mitchell's stuff. It was dreadful. You

1215
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: know how much is that doggy in the window? And

1216
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 2: I've known you were coming out of bakeder cake and

1217
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 2: it was horrible, sentimental, gimmicky music. And I hated it,

1218
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: but sort of like music, and I didn't know what

1219
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 2: to like. And then someone turned me onto jazz, and

1220
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 2: I can the same time I was given this trumpet,

1221
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 2: so I completely fell in love with jazz, which was

1222
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: then trad jazz. So you know Larry Louis Armstrong hot

1223
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 2: five what seven classic jazz records, And then at that

1224
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 2: stage in England, there was a big boost in traditional jazz.

1225
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 2: There were amongst all this terrible American style sentimental pop

1226
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 2: and its English cover versions, there were three jazz mans

1227
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: who were doing very well in the popular music Chris

1228
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 2: Barbera aka Built and Kenny Ball three Bees. And I

1229
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 2: like that. I like jazz and kids, if they liked

1230
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 2: music at all, really that's what they liked, because the

1231
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 2: sentimental music wasn't for them. But there was no There

1232
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,439
Speaker 2: was no music amongst teenagers and those. It wasn't something

1233
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 2: teenagers felt. A part of music was that for adults,

1234
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 2: apart perhaps from the trad jazz. So I fell in

1235
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 2: love with that. I learned everything was to learn about jazz.

1236
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 2: Dozens of jazz records and books, and I read more

1237
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 2: than anything else. I probably read as much as I listened.

1238
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 2: I just loved the books on jazz. I had every

1239
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 2: book there wasn't jazz, and I could tell you anything.

1240
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 2: I mean I can't remember anything now that I could

1241
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 2: tell you know what? What? What? What? The engineer at

1242
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 2: the session when Louis Orstone's Hot five recorded this that

1243
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: I was wearing and knew all about it. And then

1244
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 2: bit by bit got to like modern jazz and liked

1245
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 2: it even better and completely passionate about modern jazz. So

1246
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 2: by the time I left school, my idea was to

1247
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 2: be a jazz musician. I figured to be a jazz position,

1248
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 2: that I had to come to America. Somehow I get

1249
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 2: to America as the first problem, and then I had

1250
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 2: to become black. I wasn't sure how I was going

1251
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 2: to do that, but you know, I had this idea,

1252
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 2: and I was a good teenage idea. I was going

1253
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 2: to America. I was going to come a top black

1254
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 2: jazz position. Then I got to America, it wasn't so easy.

1255
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 2: I couldn't actually work in America, so I had to

1256
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 2: go work in Canada because we couldn't get a green

1257
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 2: card in America for that. But I managed to emigrate

1258
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 2: to Canada, and I used to come every weekend come

1259
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 2: down to New York if I when I was in

1260
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 2: Toronto and listened to jazz and jazz pubs in New York,

1261
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 2: and it was my whole world was obsessed with jazz.

1262
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 2: And I had found the sad truth that to earn

1263
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,839
Speaker 2: a living as a trumpet player or any other musician,

1264
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:33,600
Speaker 2: it wasn't jazz. They didn't earn the living there that

1265
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 2: even the great jazz editions I'd worshiped and had their

1266
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: records in my room. While as a kids, most of

1267
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 2: them that was a hobby. Most learned their money playing

1268
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 2: in other bands, apart from very few, and so I

1269
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 2: worked in a dockside tabn much like the Beatles didn't

1270
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 2: have it. I worked in a strip club, and I

1271
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 2: learned all the pop songs of the day because that's

1272
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 2: what had to be played. And then this was an

1273
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 2: extraordinary thing. Ten years had passed since I first introduced

1274
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 2: at pop and how bad it was. I learned that

1275
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 2: the pop songs of the day, now we're talking nineteen

1276
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 2: sixty were very good, very well constructed, very interesting songs.

1277
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 2: You listened to Frank Sinartis type someone kind of fly

1278
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 2: with Me, you listen to Fat's Domino bluesy, jazzy influenced,

1279
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 2: and I rather fell in love with pop.

1280
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you get in the film business?

1281
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 2: Well, my dad was a documentary film director. So when

1282
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 2: I went back to Indian when I finally gave up

1283
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 2: trying to be a musician and realized I was not

1284
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 2: going to be the greatest jazz position in the world.

1285
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,640
Speaker 2: Could only just earn a living playing average trumpet. I

1286
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: got back to England and films seemed to be the

1287
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:52,559
Speaker 2: obvious thing to get into because because of what he'd done,

1288
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 2: I know how to I knew how it worked, you know.

1289
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 2: Even when I was a kid. I used to go

1290
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 2: out on location with him and do the clapperboard or

1291
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 2: even the film in the magazine camera. And I've worked

1292
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: a bit the cutting rooms with him. So I went

1293
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 2: back to England and managed to get a job in

1294
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 2: the film industry as an assistant film editor. And that

1295
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 2: was good because it was well paid and it put

1296
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 2: me amongst affable, nice, intellectual thinking people.

1297
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: So what drove you into the music business?

1298
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 2: Well drove me I prior to going to America, I

1299
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 2: had had a job after I left stool Them. Before

1300
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 2: I went to America's position, I'd got a job as

1301
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 2: Johnny Dankworth's band. And Johnny Dankworth was a big band,

1302
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: and in the ninety fifties the equivalent of rock groups

1303
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:49,760
Speaker 2: were big bands. I mean there were probably thirty or

1304
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:54,719
Speaker 2: forty quite well known big bands, twelve to fifteen musicians, trumpet, brass,

1305
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 2: sack section touring round UK, and one of the best

1306
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 2: known Wasjohnny Dank, which was the most jazz influence band,

1307
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 2: and I'd got a job as band boy, which is roady.

1308
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 2: But they had a tour manager and a band boy.

1309
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 2: See he had infected one roady at one tour manager

1310
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:13,680
Speaker 2: and you did all the hard work. You carried the

1311
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:17,759
Speaker 2: drums up three flights of stairs to a flat no empire,

1312
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,560
Speaker 2: and you set them up on stage and packed it

1313
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 2: to when the bus rolled the joints. So what I'd

1314
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 2: loved about that job, and they were never I was

1315
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 2: hopefully they're going to let me play trumpet in the band.

1316
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: Of course that didn't happen. But what I loved about

1317
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 2: the job was in the bus every night going home,

1318
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 2: they gossip and the music business gossip, which I really liked.

1319
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 2: I thought, this is I want to be part of this.

1320
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 2: So when I came back and worked in the film industry,

1321
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 2: I was always thinking how nice it would be to

1322
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 2: to somehow involve that get involved with that music business

1323
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: gossip i'd heard. And when I started making quite good

1324
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:57,560
Speaker 2: money in the film industry, I started going to the

1325
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 2: trendy clubs. It was middle of swinging London, and I

1326
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 2: started meeting a lot of music business people and two

1327
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 2: or three in the morning, I'd have to go home

1328
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:08,600
Speaker 2: because I had to be up and be in the

1329
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 2: cutting rooms the next morning. And they'd all stay on,

1330
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 2: you know. I'd say, how come you even stay on?

1331
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 2: And they say, oh, the music business, you can go

1332
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 2: to work when you want. And I thought, that's this

1333
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:20,640
Speaker 2: is a good business. I'm going to have to get

1334
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,720
Speaker 2: into this. And so I was looking for opportunities and

1335
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:29,640
Speaker 2: I've met this girl. We had a hugely good relationship

1336
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 2: with Vicky Wickham. She was one of the booking agent

1337
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 2: the booking producers for Already sterdy Go, which was the

1338
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,640
Speaker 2: television teenage program in the UK the music and we

1339
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 2: have enormous good friends and one day she one day

1340
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 2: she turned up and said, Dusty Springfield, who was a

1341
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 2: friend of hers, has just come back from Italy with

1342
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 2: a with a song she wants to record in English.

1343
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 2: It's an Italian song and how does she get lyrics

1344
01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 2: for it? And I said, why don't we write them?

1345
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: And Vicky he said, well, because we've never written lyrics

1346
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 2: before as well throwing ever bothersly let's do. And so

1347
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 2: we sat down and wrote the lyrics. Took an hour

1348
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 2: or two and that was you don't have to say

1349
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 2: you love me. So suddenly I was sort of in

1350
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:20,640
Speaker 2: the music business. The number one hit. And then the Yardbirds,

1351
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 2: who were the third biggest group in the world after

1352
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 2: the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, got fed up with

1353
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 2: their manager because they never made their money or he

1354
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 2: never gave them any money, and they asked VICKI, who

1355
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 2: would she recommend to manage them? And she recommended me,

1356
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 2: And so suddenly I had a call one day saying,

1357
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:43,200
Speaker 2: this is the Yardbird said, would you like to manage us? Yes? Please.

1358
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 2: I love doing things I haven't done before, trying new things.

1359
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:51,679
Speaker 2: So suddenly, completely in over my head, I was managing

1360
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 2: the Yardbirds, who've all been in the business five years,

1361
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 2: were brilliant musicians, had four or five hit records, three

1362
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 2: number one records, and I was their manager. It's really

1363
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 2: flying by the city of pants, But I did, you know,

1364
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 2: sometimes not knowing what you're doing, it's a big advantage.

1365
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:16,760
Speaker 2: Because they wanted money. That was the first thing I

1366
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 2: went out and had done with them. They said, we've

1367
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 2: got no money, but had four number ones. We haven't

1368
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 2: got any money at all. We drive around to gigs

1369
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 2: and this terrible old car and we're all living with

1370
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 2: our parents still, which is absurd. And so I went

1371
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 2: off to EMI, which is their record company, and I

1372
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 2: told them very arrogantly, and I was I was twenty four,

1373
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 2: twenty five. I was full of myself, quite quite sort

1374
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 2: of appity, nasty, nasty, young chap. And I went into

1375
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 2: EMI and I told them, your contract's not valid with

1376
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 2: the others because it was made through their manager, and

1377
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 2: so when they stopped being managed by him, he signed

1378
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 2: a contract with you, not them, so it's not valid.

1379
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure if they thought that was right.

1380
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,799
Speaker 2: They talked with their lawyers, but they were sufficiently afraid

1381
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 2: that I might be right. But they said, well, we're

1382
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 2: negotiating a new contract. And I had no idea what

1383
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:11,519
Speaker 2: do you negotiate? I mean, this is the advantage of

1384
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 2: not know. I didn't know what the parameters were. If

1385
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 2: I had done, I have asked a lot, but not

1386
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 2: beyond the parameters. But I didn't, so I just sort

1387
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 2: of worked out my head what a records cost, having it?

1388
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 2: Did they sell? Just take a percentage of that? And

1389
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 2: I asked for a ridiculous amount of money and a

1390
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 2: high percentage, way beyond anything they could possibly play and

1391
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 2: they paid it. So I got the yard bloods. I mean,

1392
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 2: it's only twenty five thousand pounds, but they'd only ever

1393
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 2: paid the Beatles five thousand pounds. And I got a

1394
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 2: royalty higher than the Beatles royalty because I didn't know,

1395
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 2: and they didn't know. I didn't know, so they thought,

1396
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,639
Speaker 2: you know, the kid's come in here and get a stirrus.

1397
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 2: Of course, later on I love they were only giving

1398
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 2: us an advance on our own pipeline money. It was

1399
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 2: you learn, but I did well, so the others are

1400
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 2: pleased with that. So suddenly I was quite a good manager.

1401
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,719
Speaker 2: But then you know, I made a terrible mistake coming

1402
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:12,320
Speaker 2: home from a gig from we were in Paris. We

1403
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:16,000
Speaker 2: were walking back from the gig with Paul sam Smith,

1404
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 2: who was the base player, and Paul said to me,

1405
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 2: you know the thing I hate most of the whole

1406
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:24,640
Speaker 2: I really hate life work. I just can't stand it.

1407
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 2: I hate traveling, I hate hotels, I hate being on stage,

1408
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 2: I hate the girls screaming. I hate it. And I

1409
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 2: didn't know that. Absolutely the first principal, most important job

1410
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 2: of manager has is to keep your group together. There's

1411
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:43,600
Speaker 2: nothing more important. That's the one first golden rule of

1412
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 2: being a manager keep your group together. I didn't know

1413
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 2: that rule. So when he said he hated her, I said, oh,

1414
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 2: you poor chap Pell for doing something you don't like.

1415
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 2: You know, you should leave. We'll find somebody else. Don't worry,

1416
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 2: and off he went. So I now I was managing

1417
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 2: the third biggest rock group in the world. World was

1418
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:05,839
Speaker 2: no bass player, and what an idiot I was, Except

1419
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 2: it worked out all right because I talked to the

1420
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 2: group and they suggested a guitar player. They knew who

1421
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 2: I happened to know because I'd been making demos of

1422
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 2: songs I've been trying to write, and when I use

1423
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 2: session musicians, I always booked this guitarist and he was

1424
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 2: called Jimmy Page. But he was a session guitarist. He

1425
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 2: played pop music. He played on all Herman Simon's records.

1426
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 2: He played them the guitar servers you know from pop records.

1427
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 2: And they all say he's a good guitar guitarist, bring

1428
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 2: him in, And I said, you know, he is good.

1429
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:40,160
Speaker 2: And Jeff Beck and him were quite good friends. And

1430
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 2: Jeff was yardless guitarist, brilliant, the brilliant rock guitarist in Britain,

1431
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,719
Speaker 2: and they all said bring him in and I said,

1432
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 2: but he won't play bass, and they said, yes he will.

1433
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:53,560
Speaker 2: He's a good guy. So I went and talked to

1434
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:55,639
Speaker 2: Jimmy and he said, yeah, I come in. I'll play bass,

1435
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:59,519
Speaker 2: but I knew he wouldn't. And the second or third

1436
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 2: gig in, he walked across the stage and handed his

1437
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 2: bass to Chris, the rhythm guitarists, and took the Chris's

1438
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 2: guitar and that was it. Now we had two lead guitarists.

1439
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,640
Speaker 2: And for a while or sometimes I would say, and

1440
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:18,679
Speaker 2: some nights this was totally brilliant. They stood either side

1441
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 2: of the stage. There were no mixing desks in those days.

1442
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 2: What you heard when you went to a gig came

1443
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:24,599
Speaker 2: off the stage. You were listed for the amps coming

1444
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 2: off the stage with no mix And so they stood

1445
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 2: either side of the station and they played all the

1446
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 2: solos they already knew Jeff solos from the records. They

1447
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:36,160
Speaker 2: played them in unison, which gave a stereo effect which

1448
01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 2: you couldn't get any other way than actually have two

1449
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:40,680
Speaker 2: guitarists because there were no mixing desks, and it was

1450
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:45,479
Speaker 2: enormously impacted. I mean two they had stature, they knew

1451
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 2: how to stand and play a guitar, push themselves into

1452
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:51,120
Speaker 2: the audience. And I booked them a tour with the

1453
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 2: Rolling Stones, so the Stones supported by the Yards, and

1454
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 2: there were many nights on the tour when the Yardbods

1455
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 2: stole the show. They really had a tremendous force and energy.

1456
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:05,680
Speaker 2: But at the same time, they weren't happy because, you know,

1457
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 2: Jimmy was having to play Jeff's solos, so he wasn't

1458
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 2: his own thing, and Jeff was now sharing the limelight

1459
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,640
Speaker 2: with Jimmy, so they were There were good nights and

1460
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 2: bad nights, and they got they got less and less

1461
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 2: happy with it. And then I got them into a

1462
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 2: movie blow up which was seen all over the world.

1463
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 2: And I pulled that off by a stroke of you know,

1464
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:35,759
Speaker 2: I'm just a blagger. Really, I'm just I talk about scams,

1465
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 2: but that's how music industry works. I was having dinner

1466
01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 2: one night with my friend Kit Lambert, who managed the

1467
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 2: Who My Now Who had come up and they were

1468
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 2: probably the fourth or fifth biggest group, and he was

1469
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 2: a film but kid had also been in the film industry.

1470
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 2: He worked in the cutting rooms and as a director,

1471
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 2: and I was having dinner one night with him, and

1472
01:20:57,360 --> 01:20:59,720
Speaker 2: he said, Antoni and his town and an Tonieri was

1473
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 2: just hugely famous Italian film director. And I'd seen all

1474
01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:05,720
Speaker 2: his films because my dad when I was a kid,

1475
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:08,720
Speaker 2: had maybe go and see all these Italian films. And

1476
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 2: Kit said, he wants the Who to be in it's

1477
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 2: a film about Swinging London. He wants the Who to

1478
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 2: be in the film. And I was jealous. I mean

1479
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 2: I wanted to go and Santierny. I want my group

1480
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:24,519
Speaker 2: to be in the film. And so Kit said that

1481
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 2: he loves them because he lies to the destroyer equipment.

1482
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 2: It's kneehelistic and that's going to go with this. Well,

1483
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:33,720
Speaker 2: how he sees Swinging London's niehelistic image. And so I

1484
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 2: said to Kit, look that only the Who can do this,

1485
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 2: So don't undersell. You've got to ask for ten thousand

1486
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 2: pounds minimum. Remember I was talking about a shilling a

1487
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:47,639
Speaker 2: week for pocket money. Ten thousand pounds is like asking

1488
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,680
Speaker 2: two hundred three hundred thousand pounds now asked for ten

1489
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:54,200
Speaker 2: thousand pounds. And tell him this is your group. You

1490
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 2: want editing control of that sequence. And Kit was all

1491
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,680
Speaker 2: fired up. He said, I will I will, and he did,

1492
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:04,679
Speaker 2: and Antoni only just threw him out of the meeting

1493
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:09,920
Speaker 2: just like that. And I was on the phone. However, Spantoni,

1494
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 2: only you know what about my group, the Yardards. So

1495
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 2: I went along to see him with his suite in

1496
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:22,799
Speaker 2: the Savoy Hotel and I explained that this smashing equipment,

1497
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 2: which the who did really that was the Yardbirds did that.

1498
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:28,519
Speaker 2: The Yarbords did that. Originally they were the absolute masters

1499
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 2: of smashing equipment. And then who stole it and it

1500
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 2: became their actor. We thought, oh, well, if they wanted

1501
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,280
Speaker 2: to do it, we've done it for long enough. Now

1502
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:37,439
Speaker 2: we'll move onto something else. But actually, when it comes

1503
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:40,560
Speaker 2: to smashing equipment, we really we know, we know that

1504
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 2: we taught them. And he said, oh, that's that's pretty good. Okay,

1505
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:46,680
Speaker 2: I'm interested in And he said how about money? I

1506
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,679
Speaker 2: said money. I said, we don't, we don't want paying

1507
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 2: you're you know, you're the greatest film direction in the world.

1508
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 2: Appear in one of your films. We can't ask for

1509
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 2: money for that. And then he said editing. And I said, editing,

1510
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,760
Speaker 2: you be ashamed to even talk about with you. I

1511
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:06,960
Speaker 2: saw your films when I was eleven years old, you're

1512
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 2: the master of filmmaking, and so we got the part,

1513
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:13,800
Speaker 2: and that was really good for all of the world.

1514
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 2: Of the Yards were seen as playing in the Marque Club,

1515
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 2: being the big group of three another. Okay, how did.

1516
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:23,719
Speaker 1: This affect your relationship with Kit Limbert?

1517
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 2: Do you know where? You were best friends all our

1518
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 2: lives and everything I did is what he would have

1519
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 2: done to me, you know, and we did we we

1520
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 2: did things to each other like that. After that. I

1521
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:41,160
Speaker 2: had a group later on called John's Children, and I

1522
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:46,160
Speaker 2: went on tour with them with the who we we

1523
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:48,439
Speaker 2: enjoyed doing. I mean, that was all part of being

1524
01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:55,639
Speaker 2: a manager. He was the most extraordinary, vital, crazy guy

1525
01:23:55,880 --> 01:24:00,640
Speaker 2: I ever knew. I'm probably the most intelligent. And I

1526
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 2: can't remember it affecting a rusship at all. I mean

1527
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 2: we probably had dinner again the next week. I don't

1528
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 2: remember if we did, but we certainly never fell out.

1529
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:21,040
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. What was your line of bs

1530
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 1: that The Yardbirds, who were established act had a guy

1531
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:29,719
Speaker 1: Georgio who had been a club owner, so you could say, okay,

1532
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 1: it was music business adjacent, but you're nowhere. How did

1533
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:35,120
Speaker 1: they decide to.

1534
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 2: Go with you? Well, I jumped a story the hard

1535
01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:44,320
Speaker 2: time We've got. But after I met Vicki and we

1536
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 2: wrote the words so you know how to say it up.

1537
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 2: She said you ought to be a manager, and I

1538
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:52,240
Speaker 2: thought that's a good idea. So I put together a group.

1539
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 2: I invented a group. It was a young girl, very cute,

1540
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 2: eighteen nineteen year old, a black girl who was from Jamaica,

1541
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:07,560
Speaker 2: who I I'd used I was working in films that

1542
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:10,799
Speaker 2: I had to find a girl to sing a television commercial,

1543
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 2: and I'd interviewed or auditioned a whole lot of kids,

1544
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:16,040
Speaker 2: and she was one of the ones I auditioned. So

1545
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,680
Speaker 2: she sang beautiful and I had kept her name. And

1546
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 2: there was a young guy I knew who was about

1547
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 2: the same age and the same height. He was blonde

1548
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 2: and a very pretty looking and he danced awfully well.

1549
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,280
Speaker 2: You'd see him in clubs or was around town dancing

1550
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 2: and moving really really well, very cute. And I thought,

1551
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 2: if I'd put these two people together, it would be

1552
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:40,320
Speaker 2: an amazing image. A very blonde, pale skinned guy and

1553
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 2: he's just black girl, and they're the same height. They

1554
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 2: always black brothers and sisters or twins or something and

1555
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,679
Speaker 2: he'd be a very striking image. I knew that image

1556
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 2: was going to be striking, But what I didn't know

1557
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 2: is there had never been a mixed race act in England. Ever.

1558
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 2: There had been black singers who sang with white dance fans,

1559
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 2: but there had never been a actual mixed race act.

1560
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 2: It just never occurred to me. I presume they hadn't

1561
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 2: been in America either, I don't know, but England they hadn't.

1562
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:12,280
Speaker 2: And so I put this act together and it was

1563
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:15,200
Speaker 2: definitely a striking image just because of it. They looked

1564
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 2: so great and a black and white thing looked and

1565
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 2: I got a top photographer, I don't know it was,

1566
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 2: but one of the top photographers to take a beautiful

1567
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 2: portrait of them, and it was this is absurdity and

1568
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 2: how you can play games with people. It was naked

1569
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:35,920
Speaker 2: from the shoulders up, so it was from there, literally

1570
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 2: from the shoulders up, and there was only flesh to

1571
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 2: be seen, but just below there was normal clothes. But

1572
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 2: what you saw was a black and a white face

1573
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:50,760
Speaker 2: with shoulders black and white shoulders. And it was a

1574
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 2: couple of beautiful pictures and I picked the best one,

1575
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:59,120
Speaker 2: and I had a big four by what the big

1576
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:01,519
Speaker 2: A five size which is double you know, the big

1577
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:06,840
Speaker 2: the big size picture twenty eight twenty by sixteen, and

1578
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 2: I had this blown up, had one hundred of them

1579
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:14,280
Speaker 2: blown up on hard card and put into a big

1580
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:16,559
Speaker 2: envelope and then I went made a record with them,

1581
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,320
Speaker 2: which is a silly song which I wrote myself. I

1582
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 2: was ready, I was already taking everything. I actually got

1583
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 2: some good people and I didn't. I did it myself,

1584
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 2: wrote my song, wrote this on myself, got a good

1585
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:28,320
Speaker 2: arranger in made an arrangement of it, made a record

1586
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 2: with them, and it had a sort of nice, noisy,

1587
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:34,760
Speaker 2: brassy effect. In fact, I pinched the baseline of get

1588
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:38,680
Speaker 2: Off My Cloud and put it onto Trombones and it

1589
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 2: was a good bouncy record and went along to EM

1590
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 2: I persuaded them to release it, and then I put

1591
01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 2: that record into an envelope with this huge photograph and

1592
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:52,640
Speaker 2: sent it to every DJ and producer and everybody in

1593
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 2: the country who had a show anything. And records were

1594
01:27:57,960 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 2: sold on television and not on radio shows. Radio didn't

1595
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 2: play many records. There was Parrot radio, but the BBC

1596
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 2: didn't play records, and so you dependent on television performances

1597
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:11,960
Speaker 2: and I knew because we had a postal service in

1598
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 2: those days that at six o'clock the next morning, every

1599
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:16,559
Speaker 2: single one of those people I said it to would

1600
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 2: get woken up by the post because it wouldn't go

1601
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 2: through the postposts because the thing was too wide, and

1602
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 2: you know, everyone to get woken up. Sorry, GUF wouldn't

1603
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:25,840
Speaker 2: go through the let's sorry to wake you up. But

1604
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:27,599
Speaker 2: that was it. They were going to get that, they're

1605
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:31,560
Speaker 2: going to look at it. And then I just behaved despicably.

1606
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 2: I really was revolting. I called every one of them, so,

1607
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,280
Speaker 2: are you going to play the record? And they said no.

1608
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:39,760
Speaker 2: And of course there were hundreds of singles coming out

1609
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 2: every week. There were new records every week, just the

1610
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 2: major artists alone, that people are having hits, the stones

1611
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 2: and people were enough records to fill every possible slot

1612
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 2: in every TV show and airwave, and so they always

1613
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 2: made their polite comments that I'm terribly sorry and love

1614
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 2: the song beautiful picture I haven't got and I just said,

1615
01:28:57,360 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 2: you're racious, isn't it? Because she's black and he's white,

1616
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:06,400
Speaker 2: and and most TV producers and DJs, we've got pretty

1617
01:29:06,439 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 2: liberal people. And I doubt if you'd have found one

1618
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 2: racist amongst the whole bunch of them. But so I said,

1619
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:15,240
Speaker 2: I was very pretty nasty, and they all denied they were,

1620
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:18,519
Speaker 2: and they all played it. We got five television shows

1621
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,600
Speaker 2: and it went in the charts, and that's where the

1622
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:23,639
Speaker 2: Arbor said, oh, we want this guy to managers.

1623
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:26,799
Speaker 1: How did it end with the yard Birds?

1624
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 2: Not? Well, what happened is in America. After they'd done

1625
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:35,879
Speaker 2: the tour of the Rolling Stones, they went off to America,

1626
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 2: Jeff and Jimmy began not to get on very well,

1627
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:45,880
Speaker 2: and Jeff left halfway through the tour, and and so

1628
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,840
Speaker 2: that left four piece group who totally capable of playing

1629
01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:50,760
Speaker 2: all the music because they didn't really Jeff and Jimmy

1630
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:54,800
Speaker 2: are playing in And so we had a four piece group,

1631
01:29:55,479 --> 01:30:01,479
Speaker 2: and Jimmy began to exert himself very much what he wanted,

1632
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 2: how he wanted to be. He wanted to change the

1633
01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:06,760
Speaker 2: name of the group. The new yard Birds didn't seem

1634
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:08,679
Speaker 2: to matter much. But I also couldn't release the point

1635
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:11,280
Speaker 2: of it, and he wanted to bring in different people,

1636
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 2: and bit by bit I could see this was going

1637
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:19,639
Speaker 2: to be Jimmy's group. And I didn't really mind. I mean,

1638
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 2: it was I'd done the stupid thing of getting rid

1639
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 2: of the key person. Paul Sammlesworth may have only been

1640
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:28,880
Speaker 2: the best player, but he was the original person behind

1641
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:32,560
Speaker 2: the group, and once he'd gone, despite Jeff being a

1642
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,200
Speaker 2: wall of a guitarist, it was Paul who drove the group.

1643
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 2: And I was so stupid, you know, that I'd let

1644
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:41,600
Speaker 2: him go and Jimmy was now the dominant person in

1645
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 2: the group and it was going to be Jimmy's group,

1646
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,760
Speaker 2: And that was the way it went. I mean, I

1647
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 2: just decided I didn't want to bother with it. It

1648
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:54,760
Speaker 2: was too much fighting and arguing, so so I went

1649
01:30:54,840 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 2: along to Mickey Well. I discussed it, but it was

1650
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:00,360
Speaker 2: quite amicable because at the time I just got with them.

1651
01:31:00,360 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 2: If I don't manage you, who's going to produce you?

1652
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 2: Because I've been producing them as well. It's the other

1653
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:07,599
Speaker 2: thing i'd done when I started managing was I went

1654
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:09,680
Speaker 2: straight and produced their first album, and I didn't know

1655
01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 2: much about that either, but I was lucky it turned

1656
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:14,559
Speaker 2: out turned out pretty good. But then they knew how

1657
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 2: to produce themselves, so I said, well, at List, I

1658
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 2: better get your producer, and they all thought Mickey most

1659
01:31:20,439 --> 01:31:22,360
Speaker 2: would be a good idea because he produced the animals,

1660
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:26,000
Speaker 2: and Jimmy liked Mickey Most because Jimmy had made all

1661
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 2: the Home and Silence records with him. So we went

1662
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 2: up to see Mickey Most and Mickey said, yeah, he'd

1663
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:33,840
Speaker 2: like to produce the art buds. Who's going to balage you?

1664
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:36,280
Speaker 2: And I said, I'm quite happy to give it up

1665
01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:39,000
Speaker 2: if you want someone else to manage them. And Nick's

1666
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:45,400
Speaker 2: business partner, well, I guess his protection was Peter Grant,

1667
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,080
Speaker 2: and he's well, Peter could do it, and so Peter

1668
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:53,320
Speaker 2: did it. And that's was Liz Zeppelin. So in terms

1669
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:56,360
Speaker 2: of managing the yard person the fact that they ceased

1670
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 2: to exist at the end of my management, so I

1671
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 2: was a failure. On the other hand, led Zeppelin wouldn't

1672
01:32:01,360 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 2: have existed without this, so perhaps as a plus and

1673
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:06,880
Speaker 2: a minus there. And I kept Jeff Beck. I was

1674
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 2: going to manage Jeff Beck and that went all right

1675
01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 2: for a bit, but that was difficult too because he

1676
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:20,000
Speaker 2: Jeff was not Jeff was never interested in the commercial

1677
01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:22,200
Speaker 2: side of the music business. He just wanted to play

1678
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:26,160
Speaker 2: his guitar. And I like commerce, I like the Hols

1679
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:27,920
Speaker 2: and strap to the music bersins. I like the idea

1680
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,040
Speaker 2: of making a record and trying to make money and

1681
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:34,040
Speaker 2: promote it, making some of the just start and he hated.

1682
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 2: Mickey also made his record High Host silver first single,

1683
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,000
Speaker 2: High Host silver Lining, which I thought was a brilliant record.

1684
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:44,040
Speaker 2: I still do today. I love the record, and Jeff

1685
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:47,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't sing it, So you think you have separated Jeff

1686
01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 2: from the group. We've got a hit record and Jeff

1687
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:53,760
Speaker 2: refused to perform it. These are very difficult people. Time

1688
01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:57,120
Speaker 2: for life to get easier, so I moved on.

1689
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 1: Okay, this is all happened subsequent to the breaking of

1690
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:06,560
Speaker 1: the Beatles. To what degree did the Beatles change the

1691
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:12,120
Speaker 1: music industry, life and attitudes in the UK? And to

1692
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 1: what degree were you conscious.

1693
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:19,160
Speaker 2: Of that the Beatles created the music industry. The music

1694
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:23,840
Speaker 2: industry was a little a small business. Part of that,

1695
01:33:24,479 --> 01:33:27,400
Speaker 2: you know. You have to remember until nineteen fifty five,

1696
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:32,479
Speaker 2: the music industry thrives. It made us money selling sheep music,

1697
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:35,640
Speaker 2: not records, and the top ten every week was the

1698
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:39,559
Speaker 2: top ten best selling pieces of sheet music. The idea

1699
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:41,720
Speaker 2: being you played them a home on the piano and

1700
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 2: the lyrics you sang in the pub, and records were

1701
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 2: secondary to that, and when rock and roll came along,

1702
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:53,639
Speaker 2: sheep music you couldn't make rock and roll playing sheep music.

1703
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:56,560
Speaker 2: And for the first time, records became more important. The

1704
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 2: sound became of the record became more important than the song,

1705
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,439
Speaker 2: and so very quickly, within two years, the charts, both

1706
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:07,599
Speaker 2: in America and UK changed from being the top ten

1707
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:10,640
Speaker 2: pieces of sheep music to the top ten records. And

1708
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:14,000
Speaker 2: once the charts were the top ten records, the industry

1709
01:34:14,120 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 2: completely changed because whereas previously, music publishers would try to

1710
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 2: get as many people many recording artists as possible to

1711
01:34:22,320 --> 01:34:24,519
Speaker 2: record their best songs so they had more and more

1712
01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:27,400
Speaker 2: chances of selling the sheep music. Now when the chart

1713
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:31,360
Speaker 2: was the records, the publishers wanted only one person to

1714
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 2: record each song because if there were two versions of it,

1715
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:37,040
Speaker 2: it would distill. It would diffuse the amount of records

1716
01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:39,920
Speaker 2: being sold. Lets's like to get the chart. So the

1717
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:43,360
Speaker 2: artist became incredibly important. The great a good song was

1718
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:45,760
Speaker 2: taken to one artist, Will you record the song? Nobody

1719
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:49,760
Speaker 2: else can to record it, and that very quickly meant

1720
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,280
Speaker 2: that the artist was more important than the song. An

1721
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:54,360
Speaker 2: artist who'd had a big hit with this last record

1722
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:56,800
Speaker 2: would probably get a hit with his next record, even

1723
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:59,679
Speaker 2: if it wasn't a very good song. And very quickly

1724
01:35:00,360 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 2: you didn't say what songs number one this week? You

1725
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 2: say who is number one this week? And who? Rather

1726
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 2: than what was the moment the industry changed. So by

1727
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:14,600
Speaker 2: the time the sixties came along, who was at the

1728
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 2: top of the charts was the most important question. So

1729
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 2: when the Beatles broke and became so huge and had

1730
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:25,479
Speaker 2: so many hits, often at the same time their name,

1731
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 2: it was not the songs which were talked about. Was

1732
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 2: the Beatles, the Beatles, the Beatles, Who was the key question?

1733
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:36,200
Speaker 2: And them being so huge really meant that the business

1734
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:39,600
Speaker 2: shifted from being not just a sheet news business but

1735
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:42,560
Speaker 2: to being a record business, but a business where you

1736
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:46,519
Speaker 2: sold people. You know, Suddenly people the record industry understood

1737
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,120
Speaker 2: that it wasn't even selling It wasn't any sheep news,

1738
01:35:49,200 --> 01:35:51,599
Speaker 2: It wasn't even sell any records. It was selling artists.

1739
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 2: And that's never changed since then. The record business is

1740
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:58,160
Speaker 2: about it's an artist business. It's a hit record hit

1741
01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 2: artist driven, But record business companies are about artists. Many

1742
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 2: record companies won't even take a one off hit record anymore.

1743
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:07,280
Speaker 2: If they think you're going to one off hit, there's

1744
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:09,599
Speaker 2: nothing to support it in terms of artists. To stop

1745
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 2: worth spending the money promoting it and making it a hit,

1746
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:15,840
Speaker 2: you haven't got something to continue with afterwards. So the

1747
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:20,599
Speaker 2: Beatles were there at that moment, but there were five

1748
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 2: other groups waiting in the wings. You know, something had happened.

1749
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:25,880
Speaker 2: In ninety fifty five there was a record by a

1750
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:28,560
Speaker 2: guy called Nonnie Dolligan called Rock Island Line, which was

1751
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:32,880
Speaker 2: by a skiffle group. A skiffle group was the trad

1752
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:35,400
Speaker 2: jazz bands I mentioned earlier in the intervals. They had

1753
01:36:35,439 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 2: to have intervals because they blew their lips out in

1754
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:41,240
Speaker 2: forty minutes of playing. So they waved their rhythm sections

1755
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:43,759
Speaker 2: forward and told the rootin section to sing a few songs.

1756
01:36:44,479 --> 01:36:46,679
Speaker 2: And the songs they'd sing, because there were New Orleans

1757
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 2: jazz bands, would be New Orleans songs that they sing,

1758
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:52,280
Speaker 2: the songs of Lead Belly and Big Bill brunsee the

1759
01:36:52,360 --> 01:36:55,679
Speaker 2: Southern black blues songs. And they call these interval groups

1760
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:59,719
Speaker 2: skiffle groups, and one of them eventually had a hit record.

1761
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:03,759
Speaker 2: And whereas rock and roll from America, kids in England

1762
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:06,320
Speaker 2: like rock and roll, it was like movies. You liked

1763
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:08,320
Speaker 2: a good movie, you saw it, you listened to it,

1764
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:10,880
Speaker 2: but you didn't dispi to it. You didn't think you

1765
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 2: could become that. It was too American, and it was

1766
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:16,400
Speaker 2: too produced, it was too wound up with a huge industry.

1767
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:20,360
Speaker 2: But skiffle was different. Skiffull was just a banjo player

1768
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:23,400
Speaker 2: who played acoustic guitar for the record, and a double

1769
01:37:23,439 --> 01:37:26,599
Speaker 2: bass player and somebody banging on a washboard, just one

1770
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:28,920
Speaker 2: of those boards your women used to scrub their clothes

1771
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:33,360
Speaker 2: before washing machines. And when that became a hit, every

1772
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:35,920
Speaker 2: teenager in Ingland wanted to do the same thing. Everyone.

1773
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,240
Speaker 2: It was extraordinary. There was a moment of empowerment for

1774
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 2: British teenagers because they had a very drab life. For

1775
01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:44,280
Speaker 2: you mentioned that it was rationing and you couldn't get

1776
01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 2: chocolates if you wanted it. There was no teenage fashion,

1777
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:50,519
Speaker 2: there was no love of popular music. But suddenly here

1778
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:54,240
Speaker 2: was a British guy who couldn't sing very well. Singing

1779
01:37:54,320 --> 01:37:58,040
Speaker 2: with virtually grew. Anyone could form a skiffle group. If

1780
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:00,599
Speaker 2: you could find a guitar, You could make a double

1781
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,840
Speaker 2: bass by shoving a broomstick and a box and putting

1782
01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:06,000
Speaker 2: a nail on either end and putting one string on

1783
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:09,479
Speaker 2: it and plucking it. You can borry your mother's washboards.

1784
01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:12,680
Speaker 2: You had a skiffle group. It was estimated. Within a

1785
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:14,880
Speaker 2: year of that record, it was estimated there were fifty

1786
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 2: thousand teenage skiffle groups in England, and the year before

1787
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 2: that record came out, only five thousand acoustic guitars were

1788
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:25,400
Speaker 2: sold in England and the year after two hundred and

1789
01:38:25,479 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 2: fifty thousand, five thousand sat increase. And all these posicians

1790
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 2: who later became famous, whether it was where it was

1791
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:40,080
Speaker 2: Rick Waitman and John or Jimmy Page or Eric Clapton,

1792
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 2: every one of them started at thirteen fourteen years old

1793
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:48,520
Speaker 2: in akroup. The Beatles were the first. When Paul McCartney

1794
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:53,120
Speaker 2: joined John John already had a skiffle group and that's

1795
01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:55,320
Speaker 2: what they called. And a skiffle group was pretty much

1796
01:38:55,840 --> 01:38:58,280
Speaker 2: anybody who could play anything or had an instrument, you

1797
01:38:58,320 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 2: can join great. They were just pick up groups of

1798
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:06,519
Speaker 2: fourteen fifteen run kids playing whatever they had. And by

1799
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 2: the time the Beatles happened, the best of these groups

1800
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 2: have been together for four or five years and they

1801
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 2: some of them made some money and they swapped their

1802
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 2: washboard for drum kits, and their homemade bass guitar for

1803
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:20,599
Speaker 2: an electric for electric bass, acoustic guitar for electric guitar,

1804
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:25,759
Speaker 2: and they music had morphed from country, southern black blues

1805
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:28,280
Speaker 2: to rhythm and blues, and so by the time you

1806
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:32,479
Speaker 2: got to nineteen fifty eight fifty nine sixty, rhythm was

1807
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:36,400
Speaker 2: a wash with incredibly good rhythm and blues groups, I mean,

1808
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 2: playing absolutely as good as American groups, the difference being

1809
01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:47,360
Speaker 2: instead of Black American cast you know, cast away from

1810
01:39:47,439 --> 01:39:52,240
Speaker 2: society Black Americans, these were teenagers, were white post war

1811
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:56,679
Speaker 2: British teenagers. They were singing American songs. They weren't writing

1812
01:39:56,680 --> 01:39:59,959
Speaker 2: their own. But lyrics made something different. With Eric Burdens

1813
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:02,680
Speaker 2: with the animals saying I'm a man, you know, he

1814
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 2: didn't mean you know, I'm maybe black, but I'm still

1815
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:07,320
Speaker 2: a human being. He meant I'm eighteen and I'm horny.

1816
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:10,439
Speaker 2: You know that all the lyrics were given new meanings

1817
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 2: just by different people singing them. And then they started

1818
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:16,240
Speaker 2: writing their own songs. And when they started writing their

1819
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:18,600
Speaker 2: own songs, that was when rock music started. That was

1820
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:20,680
Speaker 2: the beginning of rock music. You know, rock music is

1821
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:23,639
Speaker 2: a totally English thing. It didn't come from America. Rock

1822
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,040
Speaker 2: music came from America in the sense it was the

1823
01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 2: influence of rhythm and blues and black music, but it

1824
01:40:29,120 --> 01:40:32,200
Speaker 2: was British teenagers that turned it into rock music. And

1825
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 2: the Beatles were the first of those groups. But when

1826
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:38,120
Speaker 2: they happened in America wanted more. They were waiting them,

1827
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:41,080
Speaker 2: and there was the Rolling Stones and the Animals and

1828
01:40:41,120 --> 01:40:45,599
Speaker 2: the Yards and Manfred Mann who drugs and the Kinks

1829
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 2: just waited all ivn't ready five years of plain to go.

1830
01:40:52,240 --> 01:40:55,320
Speaker 1: Okay, going back to the lyrics for you Don't Have

1831
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:59,599
Speaker 1: to Say You Love Me and producing the first Yard

1832
01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:05,880
Speaker 1: Brewers album, those generate royalties, did you get paid? And

1833
01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:08,080
Speaker 1: where are those royalties today?

1834
01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:13,760
Speaker 2: Well they've long been eaten and splashed away, is what

1835
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 2: I do? Do you? No?

1836
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:20,280
Speaker 1: My question is do you still own those interests? No?

1837
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:24,320
Speaker 2: Actually, Vicky and I sold our share to BMG about

1838
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:27,679
Speaker 2: seven or eight years ago, as people are doing these days.

1839
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:32,320
Speaker 2: But yes, Look it was a lousy deal because that

1840
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:34,960
Speaker 2: deals were lousy in those days. So the deal we

1841
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 2: got was twelve and a half. The British publisher paid

1842
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:43,680
Speaker 2: us twelve and a half percent of their income the

1843
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:46,840
Speaker 2: song was published in Italy, they made a deal fifty

1844
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 2: to fifty with the British publisher. The British public goers

1845
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 2: twelve and a half percent of work they get, so

1846
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:52,320
Speaker 2: we got twelve and a half cent to fifty to fifty.

1847
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:54,760
Speaker 2: That was the normal deal in that says and then

1848
01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:56,880
Speaker 2: Bricky and I split that twelve and a half percent

1849
01:41:57,360 --> 01:41:59,360
Speaker 2: and then that never got changed. I mean, that was

1850
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 2: the deal went around the world. It was still quite

1851
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 2: a lot of money. I mean, it was nice money

1852
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,840
Speaker 2: to have coming in every month. On the good side,

1853
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:11,240
Speaker 2: it never changed and it's still paid. On the bad

1854
01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:14,559
Speaker 2: side today we'd got four times as much money. Every

1855
01:42:14,720 --> 01:42:17,600
Speaker 2: time you Don't Have to Say You Love Me was

1856
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,840
Speaker 2: sung in English anywhere in the world. The writer of

1857
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 2: the Italian lyric got twice as much money as we

1858
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:28,000
Speaker 2: did for the lyrics just being sung. So that's how

1859
01:42:28,080 --> 01:42:32,880
Speaker 2: these things go. But about ten years ago we sold

1860
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:35,479
Speaker 2: our share to EMI. And you know when you read

1861
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 2: about people selling their catalogs, and every week we read

1862
01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:40,880
Speaker 2: it SOMEDI are selling a catalog and they said they

1863
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:44,080
Speaker 2: sold their rights. They're not selling their rights. Their rights

1864
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:47,720
Speaker 2: are already with the publishing companies who rouginally signed them.

1865
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 2: What they're selling is their flow of income, the flow

1866
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:53,640
Speaker 2: of the writer's income, the income they get from the

1867
01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:57,000
Speaker 2: publisher for the writer's ship. That's what they sell, and

1868
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 2: then thereafter the publisher doesn't have to pay money income.

1869
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:03,439
Speaker 2: And we sold that. We did quite a good deal

1870
01:43:03,479 --> 01:43:07,439
Speaker 2: for it, about what it was worth we at the time.

1871
01:43:08,320 --> 01:43:10,280
Speaker 2: For what we got, i'd said we'd have to live

1872
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:13,400
Speaker 2: another twelve years to regret it. We've got as much

1873
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:15,599
Speaker 2: as we'd definitly get in twelve years after that we'd

1874
01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:18,120
Speaker 2: wish we hadn't sold it. Well, we've both lived another

1875
01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 2: twelve years, so hopefully we'll die soon and then we

1876
01:43:21,160 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 2: won't have to regret it.

1877
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:24,320
Speaker 1: Was it BMG or EMI?

1878
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:24,920
Speaker 2: BMG?

1879
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:32,240
Speaker 1: Okay, So how did you ultimately get involved with WIAM?

1880
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 2: Ultimately? Uh, WHAM came after Japan. I'd spent seven years

1881
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:45,360
Speaker 2: managing Japan, taking them from completely impossible to get a

1882
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:48,960
Speaker 2: deal with to probably being the most influential important group

1883
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:53,719
Speaker 2: in rock in Europe for British and Europe, not America.

1884
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:58,880
Speaker 2: And then they broke up and I thought, as enough,

1885
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 2: I don't think I really want to do much more.

1886
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:03,800
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to manage the other group.

1887
01:44:03,800 --> 01:44:05,800
Speaker 2: But it's time to write books. I'm get to go

1888
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:08,800
Speaker 2: to Asia and write books. And before I could go,

1889
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:10,720
Speaker 2: I was a knock on the door and a guy

1890
01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:15,599
Speaker 2: called Jazz Summers, who was also a manager was there.

1891
01:44:15,920 --> 01:44:19,880
Speaker 2: And still somebody suggested I come and see you, and

1892
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:22,800
Speaker 2: I think we get on well and we ought to

1893
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:25,679
Speaker 2: manage together. He had had a group called Blue Zoo,

1894
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 2: not not big by Japan, but they'd had number one

1895
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:30,439
Speaker 2: record and they've broken up and he was a bit

1896
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:33,320
Speaker 2: pissed off with that. So we had something in common there,

1897
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 2: but I immediately didn't get on with And this is

1898
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 2: a guy who was not on my wavelength, you know

1899
01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:45,599
Speaker 2: he was. He was very aggressive, very confrontational. He spoke

1900
01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 2: deliberately down market, so he sounded pretty you know in

1901
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:53,120
Speaker 2: London and rough Later on I found that was part

1902
01:44:53,160 --> 01:44:57,880
Speaker 2: of an act from him. But someone had a friend

1903
01:44:57,920 --> 01:44:59,840
Speaker 2: of mutual friend that suggested he come and see me

1904
01:44:59,880 --> 01:45:02,040
Speaker 2: in I thought we just to beliked to our mutual friend.

1905
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:05,000
Speaker 2: Let's try, so I said, let's go and have lunch.

1906
01:45:05,720 --> 01:45:08,840
Speaker 2: I went around the road to the corners, the local

1907
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:12,400
Speaker 2: Chinese restaurant, and then halfway through lunch, I found he

1908
01:45:12,400 --> 01:45:15,840
Speaker 2: could speak Chinese, so I thought, well, okay, he's not

1909
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:18,439
Speaker 2: not quite the person I thought he wants already knocked

1910
01:45:18,479 --> 01:45:23,479
Speaker 2: on the door. Cantonies and his father had been in

1911
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:26,120
Speaker 2: the army, so he was brought up in an army background,

1912
01:45:26,800 --> 01:45:30,000
Speaker 2: and they'd lived in Hong Kong when he was a kid.

1913
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:38,759
Speaker 2: Learned Cantonese, and he was a pretty clever, knowledgeable, thoughtful,

1914
01:45:39,000 --> 01:45:41,920
Speaker 2: well read guy and didn't really have to speak the

1915
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:44,439
Speaker 2: way he spoke. It was sort of like a defense

1916
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:47,519
Speaker 2: in a tough world, you know. And we became incredibly

1917
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:51,439
Speaker 2: good friends. I'm in extraordinary good friends, and really learned

1918
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 2: to work together in a clever way because I'm really

1919
01:45:57,240 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 2: somebody who have voiced confrontation will always find a way

1920
01:45:59,880 --> 01:46:03,160
Speaker 2: to solve a problem and be diplomatic, and he is

1921
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:05,320
Speaker 2: a person who can't stand that waste of time. And

1922
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:08,360
Speaker 2: so we learned when to use each other to solve problems,

1923
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:09,719
Speaker 2: which was needed.

1924
01:46:09,760 --> 01:46:13,720
Speaker 1: Okay, Jazz, who I did not know, talk to a

1925
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:18,680
Speaker 1: bit whatever, did not have a good reputation. Jazz is

1926
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:21,480
Speaker 1: six feet under. I don't know whether they was cremated

1927
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:22,120
Speaker 1: or buried.

1928
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:27,920
Speaker 2: What was the real story there, Jazz, Yeah, there's a

1929
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 2: real story. His dad was tough, rerigically tough. His dad.

1930
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:37,280
Speaker 2: One day, Jazz was coming home from school when he

1931
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:42,080
Speaker 2: was six years old, and two guys, older boys forty

1932
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:45,000
Speaker 2: eight year old, came up to him with a bit

1933
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:47,280
Speaker 2: of trained partner started hitting him and beating him up,

1934
01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:51,080
Speaker 2: and just at that moment, his dad cycled by in

1935
01:46:51,160 --> 01:46:54,479
Speaker 2: his bicycle. He broke off from the army at four

1936
01:46:54,479 --> 01:46:57,559
Speaker 2: o'clock after he just came back. Just happened to see

1937
01:46:57,600 --> 01:47:01,479
Speaker 2: that moment. And at the moment he came by, Jazz

1938
01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:04,519
Speaker 2: was running away from two boys and crying, and his

1939
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:09,800
Speaker 2: father hit Jazz for running away and crying and then

1940
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:12,120
Speaker 2: tied him too his bike and made him run home

1941
01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:15,519
Speaker 2: behind his bike for a punishment for not fighting the

1942
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:19,320
Speaker 2: two boys. Now you can you can imagine that creates

1943
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:24,439
Speaker 2: quite a that creates quite a tough child. And so

1944
01:47:25,040 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 2: Jazz spent his life being extremely aggressive. But he achieved

1945
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:33,839
Speaker 2: a lot of things by being aggressive. And for instance,

1946
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:37,280
Speaker 2: you're going to jump forwards, I'm going to jump forwards,

1947
01:47:37,320 --> 01:47:39,519
Speaker 2: but you can go through it in a minute. After

1948
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:43,040
Speaker 2: WAM played in China and we managed to pull off

1949
01:47:43,160 --> 01:47:46,280
Speaker 2: what we could. Whole purpose of WAM playing in China

1950
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:49,120
Speaker 2: was to jump the forwards and get them into stadium

1951
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:52,080
Speaker 2: tours without waiting any longer. And everyone in America said

1952
01:47:52,200 --> 01:47:55,599
Speaker 2: they're not ready for stadium tours. And we were signed

1953
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:59,519
Speaker 2: with Frank Barcelona, and Frank Barcelona said no, you're not

1954
01:47:59,600 --> 01:48:02,040
Speaker 2: ready for tours, and Jazz did, yes, we are, this

1955
01:48:02,240 --> 01:48:05,240
Speaker 2: is what I want you to book. And Frank said, well,

1956
01:48:05,240 --> 01:48:08,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to and Jazz, well, we're walking away

1957
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 2: from you. I don't care if we've got a sign contract.

1958
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:11,240
Speaker 2: If you won't do what we want, why not with you?

1959
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 2: And Frank's did you can't to Jazz that I can,

1960
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:17,759
Speaker 2: and he did so Jazz walked away, went to another

1961
01:48:18,240 --> 01:48:20,600
Speaker 2: promoter and when he tried to book stadium tours, he

1962
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:23,519
Speaker 2: find that Frank had booked every single stadium for three

1963
01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:26,639
Speaker 2: months ahead. Every stadium American He just put deposits down

1964
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 2: and made there were no stadiums anywhere in America.

1965
01:48:29,960 --> 01:48:30,040
Speaker 3: And.

1966
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:36,240
Speaker 2: Jazz got round there. He went to people who had alternatives.

1967
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:41,200
Speaker 2: We paid la race course. Phil Graham didn't like Frank Barcelona,

1968
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:43,880
Speaker 2: so he put us enter the venues. He had a

1969
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:47,439
Speaker 2: bit by bit, Jazz got round that I couldn't have

1970
01:48:47,479 --> 01:48:49,439
Speaker 2: done that, you know, I'm a compromise, right. I just

1971
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:51,320
Speaker 2: sat down with Frank and said, well, maybe we'll wait

1972
01:48:51,360 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 2: another year. And that probably would have lost with the

1973
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:57,680
Speaker 2: group because George and Andrew were very definite. After we

1974
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:01,519
Speaker 2: played China, we're doing stadium tours a great value to Jazz.

1975
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:05,040
Speaker 2: But my god, he could be an angry man, but

1976
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:07,680
Speaker 2: a good angry man. There was a great story when

1977
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 2: he went to EMI one day, this is just after

1978
01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:14,240
Speaker 2: we finished Manager, when he went to EMI to see

1979
01:49:14,960 --> 01:49:17,320
Speaker 2: the new head of a A and R of one

1980
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:20,639
Speaker 2: of the divisions. And when he went in, the guy

1981
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:23,720
Speaker 2: and and I were sitting behind the desk, and he said, grumbling.

1982
01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:27,679
Speaker 2: He said to Jazz, he said, this business is getting

1983
01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:34,320
Speaker 2: taken over by quairs. And jazz leapt up in a fury,

1984
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 2: grabbed the guy by his lapels, smashed him against the

1985
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:42,439
Speaker 2: wall and shouted, well, my wife's and my partner's are queer.

1986
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 2: And he pushed him in a cupboard, slammed the door shut,

1987
01:49:46,040 --> 01:49:47,559
Speaker 2: locked it, and threw the key out of the window

1988
01:49:47,560 --> 01:49:51,120
Speaker 2: as the third floor window. I like that story. The

1989
01:49:51,160 --> 01:49:53,679
Speaker 2: guy who's found forteen hours later by the cleaning pagers

1990
01:49:54,400 --> 01:49:57,960
Speaker 2: very well soiled. So that's a good side of jazz

1991
01:49:58,120 --> 01:49:58,560
Speaker 2: I like that.

1992
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:09,519
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you get and how did you lose? Wham?

1993
01:50:10,439 --> 01:50:13,519
Speaker 2: Well, we got Wam by going after them. We got

1994
01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 2: Wham by we After this lunch, we sat down and talked.

1995
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:19,400
Speaker 2: We made a list of groups we'd like to manage.

1996
01:50:19,880 --> 01:50:22,040
Speaker 2: We did not want to go look for new groups.

1997
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:24,360
Speaker 2: There was a waste of two years of your life

1998
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:27,840
Speaker 2: for stunning new groups, trying to break them, failing to

1999
01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:30,559
Speaker 2: get another one. We wanted a group who already had

2000
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:35,400
Speaker 2: a hit or two and whom we could then take

2001
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:39,040
Speaker 2: to real megastartum. And we made quite a good list.

2002
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:41,960
Speaker 2: There was a Culture Club, and there was the Rhythmics.

2003
01:50:42,720 --> 01:50:45,200
Speaker 2: Three or four groups who were about at that level,

2004
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:47,760
Speaker 2: and one was Wham. And when we looked at the list,

2005
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:50,720
Speaker 2: we both knew Whams the one we both seen them

2006
01:50:50,760 --> 01:50:52,720
Speaker 2: on Top of the Pops. We've seen their first Top

2007
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:56,719
Speaker 2: of the Pops. It was extraordinary performance, really brilliant performance

2008
01:50:57,560 --> 01:51:00,280
Speaker 2: and quite out of the ordinary. This wonderful living, this

2009
01:51:00,360 --> 01:51:03,120
Speaker 2: sort of you know, the two young lads around town

2010
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:05,960
Speaker 2: that Starsky in half Gymmetry the Romance Review call it,

2011
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:10,040
Speaker 2: and such slickness. And they knew how to work to

2012
01:51:10,120 --> 01:51:11,760
Speaker 2: camera and a wage this is the first time they've

2013
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:13,640
Speaker 2: ever been on television. They look like they've been doing

2014
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:16,720
Speaker 2: it every week for the lads, and so he said,

2015
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 2: let's chase after them. And we knew the publishers, Morrison Lee.

2016
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:23,320
Speaker 2: He went to see them, and they thought we'd be

2017
01:51:23,400 --> 01:51:27,240
Speaker 2: a good idea. They knew Jazz, they knew his aggressiveness,

2018
01:51:27,320 --> 01:51:30,439
Speaker 2: his absolutely desire not to fail, and he took on.

2019
01:51:31,160 --> 01:51:35,760
Speaker 2: They knew me from my reputation, particularly with Japan. Sudden

2020
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:39,280
Speaker 2: the introducers to the group, and it was very interesting

2021
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:43,000
Speaker 2: because it's true when you saw WAM on television on

2022
01:51:43,600 --> 01:51:46,719
Speaker 2: top of the Pops, they looked like a couple of twins.

2023
01:51:46,880 --> 01:51:50,160
Speaker 2: I don't mean they looked physically alike, but they were

2024
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:52,760
Speaker 2: these two, you know, they were the lads around town.

2025
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:55,400
Speaker 2: They were out the club, the two club, two young clubbers,

2026
01:51:55,439 --> 01:51:59,479
Speaker 2: best friends. And when they came in the apartment, came

2027
01:51:59,479 --> 01:52:01,880
Speaker 2: into my part, they were the absolutely opposite of each other.

2028
01:52:01,960 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 2: I mean they were not like that. Andrew was like that.

2029
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:09,320
Speaker 2: That image was Andrew. Andrew was the image for both

2030
01:52:09,320 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 2: of them. George is absolutely not he He came in,

2031
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 2: and Andrew came in and he said down. He put

2032
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:16,680
Speaker 2: his feet up on my coffee table and picked up

2033
01:52:16,720 --> 01:52:19,920
Speaker 2: a book on the I've written my first first book,

2034
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 2: I wrote. He was reading a bit, said, oh, George

2035
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:24,240
Speaker 2: is Simon. Look at this. Simon was drunk and has

2036
01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:26,599
Speaker 2: sex all through the sixties. That's the guy we want,

2037
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:29,280
Speaker 2: you know, we want something like that. George is sitting

2038
01:52:29,320 --> 01:52:32,799
Speaker 2: in a very uptight I want to know who you've managed,

2039
01:52:32,800 --> 01:52:36,160
Speaker 2: what you've done, what you would do with us. He said,

2040
01:52:36,160 --> 01:52:38,000
Speaker 2: you've got to We've got to have the best accountants.

2041
01:52:38,920 --> 01:52:40,920
Speaker 2: And I said, well, of course you get the best,

2042
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:43,320
Speaker 2: and we want two lots of accountants. And I said,

2043
01:52:43,320 --> 01:52:44,800
Speaker 2: what's the other lot for? What to keep an eye

2044
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:46,599
Speaker 2: on the first lot. I mean, he was a very

2045
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 2: very cautious, untrusted, untrusting person, and I could see it

2046
01:52:52,320 --> 01:52:55,719
Speaker 2: once he really had come from exactly the background talking

2047
01:52:55,760 --> 01:53:01,200
Speaker 2: about an artist who has not trusted adults. He's had

2048
01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:07,320
Speaker 2: a he has had in his childhood, definitely not the

2049
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 2: costages surrounding which Andrew had had. It was a totally relaxed,

2050
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:15,600
Speaker 2: easy going, charming gun. But that was excellent. What a

2051
01:53:15,640 --> 01:53:18,479
Speaker 2: great combination. I mean, Andrew who could provide this image

2052
01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:22,120
Speaker 2: and this charm and George was so different A bit

2053
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:24,080
Speaker 2: like Chas Night. You know, it was very, very different

2054
01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:29,000
Speaker 2: from each So we took them on and George said,

2055
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:32,639
Speaker 2: we went to dinner and George said the first night,

2056
01:53:32,720 --> 01:53:34,760
Speaker 2: at the first dinner, were you're going to be the

2057
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:36,559
Speaker 2: biggest group in the world, and you've got one year.

2058
01:53:38,640 --> 01:53:40,519
Speaker 2: I just laughed. I said, the biggest group in the

2059
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:43,519
Speaker 2: world has to be the biggest group in America, because

2060
01:53:43,520 --> 01:53:47,599
Speaker 2: it's sixty percent of the world market. And no British

2061
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:50,000
Speaker 2: group's ever broken in America under three or four years.

2062
01:53:50,040 --> 01:53:53,840
Speaker 2: Even the Beatles took three or four years. That's completely impossible.

2063
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:57,759
Speaker 2: MTV was just starting, but there was no national press,

2064
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:00,760
Speaker 2: there was no leak without a MPY. Prior to that,

2065
01:54:00,840 --> 01:54:02,680
Speaker 2: there was no national word from merging group. It had

2066
01:54:02,720 --> 01:54:06,240
Speaker 2: to be done piece, region by region. I'd done it

2067
01:54:06,320 --> 01:54:09,599
Speaker 2: before the yardburs. It took time, and George so we'll

2068
01:54:09,600 --> 01:54:13,160
Speaker 2: take it or leave it one year or don't manage us.

2069
01:54:13,680 --> 01:54:15,680
Speaker 2: So of course we say, yeah, okay, one year. And

2070
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:19,720
Speaker 2: then as the dinner went on, Jazz or somebody had

2071
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:22,479
Speaker 2: the idea, why not make you the first group ever

2072
01:54:22,600 --> 01:54:24,840
Speaker 2: to play in communist China, the first Western pop group

2073
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:27,160
Speaker 2: ever to play in communist China, and George like that.

2074
01:54:27,320 --> 01:54:31,960
Speaker 2: He said, yeah, do that okay, great, fantastic settled and

2075
01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:37,000
Speaker 2: that was it. And then two weeks later I was

2076
01:54:37,120 --> 01:54:42,520
Speaker 2: in Beijing, sitting in a seedy hotel having just getting it.

2077
01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:44,680
Speaker 2: Was amazing because you couldn't get visa for China in

2078
01:54:44,760 --> 01:54:47,120
Speaker 2: the sense unless you were part of an organized group

2079
01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:50,920
Speaker 2: invited by the government. But I someoney told me a

2080
01:54:51,040 --> 01:54:52,920
Speaker 2: place in Hong Kong I could go and buy a

2081
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:55,600
Speaker 2: visa for a few hundred dollars and get across the border.

2082
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:57,080
Speaker 2: And if you take the train to guang Jo and

2083
01:54:57,120 --> 01:54:59,960
Speaker 2: you go to the left hand gate immigration gate way

2084
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:02,680
Speaker 2: for the guy called Juan Joe and show him your

2085
01:55:02,920 --> 01:55:05,280
Speaker 2: passport and he'll slip something in and watchur in the country.

2086
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:07,640
Speaker 2: So I got in the country. I got himself to Beijing,

2087
01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:11,360
Speaker 2: was sitting in this hotel and thinking, I want Wham

2088
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:14,120
Speaker 2: to come and play in China. Who can give permission?

2089
01:55:14,400 --> 01:55:17,480
Speaker 2: And why would they? And the only person I can

2090
01:55:17,520 --> 01:55:19,800
Speaker 2: think of food give permission was just happened to be

2091
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:23,400
Speaker 2: the head of Shana Danshalping, chairman of the Commorts Party,

2092
01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:26,360
Speaker 2: probably the second or third most important person in the world.

2093
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:31,600
Speaker 2: An absurd thing to try to be doing and why

2094
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:34,920
Speaker 2: would he let them in? But you know, I thought

2095
01:55:35,000 --> 01:55:37,839
Speaker 2: a lot. I managed to get in touch with the minister.

2096
01:55:39,720 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 2: I told him what I was doing. He told me

2097
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,480
Speaker 2: that China was opening up and they wanted to get

2098
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:48,760
Speaker 2: lots of foreign investment, and I said, you know, the

2099
01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:51,560
Speaker 2: best possible way, the best possible way to get foreign

2100
01:55:51,600 --> 01:55:54,920
Speaker 2: investment is to invite a teenage pop group to come

2101
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:57,600
Speaker 2: and play in China. Because everyone in the world knows

2102
01:55:57,680 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 2: that teenagers are subversive like the older generation, they want

2103
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:03,560
Speaker 2: to change things, they want to do things to Harry,

2104
01:56:04,520 --> 01:56:08,040
Speaker 2: they always work against the established order for China, to

2105
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:11,240
Speaker 2: invite at western group to come to China would really

2106
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:15,720
Speaker 2: show such confidence in yourself, such an ability to open

2107
01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:20,560
Speaker 2: up and accept new ideas. Your foreign investment were absolutely pouring.

2108
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:25,120
Speaker 2: And he wasn't convinced. And I went back every month

2109
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:28,800
Speaker 2: for fifteen months, meeting more and more ministers and trying

2110
01:56:28,840 --> 01:56:35,560
Speaker 2: to persuade them, and eventually persuaded them, and eventually I

2111
01:56:35,760 --> 01:56:38,040
Speaker 2: was taken to an office where the minister got on

2112
01:56:38,120 --> 01:56:40,880
Speaker 2: a red phone which went directly to Danshao being they

2113
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:44,120
Speaker 2: spoke and he told me, yes, you're invited to come

2114
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:47,960
Speaker 2: and play this gig, which was an astonishing thing to

2115
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:50,560
Speaker 2: pull off. I'm looking back now, I'm more amazed than

2116
01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:55,280
Speaker 2: I was at the time. And yes, Wang got to

2117
01:56:55,320 --> 01:57:00,160
Speaker 2: play those stadium tours as a result, and China got

2118
01:57:00,200 --> 01:57:02,320
Speaker 2: its investment because I went back to Beijing a year

2119
01:57:02,440 --> 01:57:06,720
Speaker 2: later and the drab, dull, old fashioned Beijing which was

2120
01:57:06,760 --> 01:57:09,240
Speaker 2: there in nineteen eighty five when I first went, with

2121
01:57:09,480 --> 01:57:14,960
Speaker 2: no modern buildings at all, and just a single level,

2122
01:57:15,160 --> 01:57:17,680
Speaker 2: five story buildings on both sides of these wide avenues,

2123
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:21,400
Speaker 2: so the whole thing was like huge prison yards. I

2124
01:57:21,480 --> 01:57:23,800
Speaker 2: went back a year later and everywhere it was like

2125
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,520
Speaker 2: a building, absolutely everywhere. And I went to see the

2126
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,320
Speaker 2: minister who invited me, and he said it started the meeting.

2127
01:57:29,920 --> 01:57:32,720
Speaker 2: Within a month of that of your gig, the foreign

2128
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:37,120
Speaker 2: investments poured in and it's doubled and continued to double

2129
01:57:37,360 --> 01:57:41,040
Speaker 2: every year. So that was quite fun to have been

2130
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 2: part of creating modern Beaiging.

2131
01:57:45,320 --> 01:57:47,480
Speaker 1: So how did you lose Willem Well?

2132
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 2: George said to me one day, I'm coming back from

2133
01:57:51,640 --> 01:57:56,560
Speaker 2: a CBS conference in Bournemouth. In the limousine, he said,

2134
01:57:56,640 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 2: when I go, So we'd already agreed he was going

2135
01:57:59,000 --> 01:58:01,120
Speaker 2: to go on for six or months that was always

2136
01:58:01,640 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 2: that was always pre arranged. He bought the date forward,

2137
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:07,680
Speaker 2: he'd always wrenered it. George said to me, when I

2138
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:11,320
Speaker 2: go solo, I don't want Jazz to be part of

2139
01:58:11,400 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 2: the management. I just want you. And I said, you

2140
01:58:15,160 --> 01:58:18,040
Speaker 2: can't tell me that. I can't do that. I can't

2141
01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 2: go to Jazz and say you're not going to manage

2142
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:24,000
Speaker 2: what George with me. He's been half of this management.

2143
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,440
Speaker 2: Everything has happened has been half because of him. And

2144
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:31,000
Speaker 2: I can't do it anymore than if I told you

2145
01:58:31,160 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 2: right now you had to get rid of Andrew. You're

2146
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:34,720
Speaker 2: planning to leave Andrew. But if I told you you

2147
01:58:34,880 --> 01:58:39,400
Speaker 2: had to, you wouldn't do it. And George, it's quite

2148
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 2: He's okay. He said, no, I understand you can't, but

2149
01:58:42,360 --> 01:58:44,960
Speaker 2: if you don't, you can't manage it. I said, well

2150
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:46,880
Speaker 2: that's it. I won't manage it because I'm not prepared

2151
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:48,480
Speaker 2: to go and tell Jazz. I'm going to do it

2152
01:58:48,520 --> 01:58:53,400
Speaker 2: by myself. And that was it. Really we became. We

2153
01:58:53,480 --> 01:58:56,080
Speaker 2: were quite amicable about it. And then I went and

2154
01:58:56,200 --> 01:59:00,240
Speaker 2: told Jazz that we would not be managing. Wow, because

2155
01:59:00,240 --> 01:59:02,640
Speaker 2: I didn't say I didn't say. George said it was

2156
01:59:03,000 --> 01:59:05,560
Speaker 2: him I said, he doesn't want us to manage it,

2157
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:09,480
Speaker 2: and so Jazz said, well, let's sell the company while

2158
01:59:09,480 --> 01:59:12,400
Speaker 2: we're still managiner. And so we made a deal with

2159
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 2: Harvey Goldsmith, who was the biggest promoter in the UK

2160
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:17,720
Speaker 2: and who promoted all of Wham's concerts in the UK,

2161
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:21,840
Speaker 2: to sell our company to Harvey Goldsmith. It was quite

2162
01:59:21,840 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 2: a good deal and we get a capital son out

2163
01:59:24,600 --> 01:59:29,400
Speaker 2: of it. But the problem was Harvey Goldsmith had just

2164
01:59:29,520 --> 01:59:33,320
Speaker 2: sold his company to a guy called soul Kertzter who

2165
01:59:33,520 --> 01:59:38,200
Speaker 2: owned Sun City in South Africa. I didn't really bother

2166
01:59:38,240 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 2: as much because we were selling our company to Harvey

2167
01:59:41,240 --> 01:59:43,080
Speaker 2: and he hadn't sold his company to sun City. He

2168
01:59:43,200 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 2: sold his company to the guy who also owned sun City.

2169
01:59:47,240 --> 01:59:51,800
Speaker 2: But when the deal went through, the Hollywood Reporter carried

2170
01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:55,200
Speaker 2: a headline which said WHAM Management sell to sun City,

2171
01:59:56,920 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 2: and George called me up. So I can't live with it.

2172
01:59:59,240 --> 02:00:01,320
Speaker 2: I can't live with that headline. I'm going to have

2173
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 2: to fire and again was quite amiable. It's strange people

2174
02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:09,520
Speaker 2: like to think that these things are always huge routes.

2175
02:00:10,400 --> 02:00:12,000
Speaker 2: But I went and had lunch with him and I said, well,

2176
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:13,720
Speaker 2: it's too late now, and I can't get rid of

2177
02:00:13,760 --> 02:00:16,040
Speaker 2: the headline. It's there, And he said, I just wish

2178
02:00:16,120 --> 02:00:17,480
Speaker 2: you'd done it more quietly, but I'm going to have

2179
02:00:17,560 --> 02:00:20,920
Speaker 2: to fire. So he did. But we were actually at

2180
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 2: that time, I, Jazz and I were also managing a

2181
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,600
Speaker 2: guy called David Austin, who was one of George's best friends.

2182
02:00:28,400 --> 02:00:32,480
Speaker 2: And George said, don't I still manage I still managed

2183
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 2: to work with you, and well, I'll produce David Austin.

2184
02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:40,040
Speaker 2: So a week after he ostensibly farre us, you know,

2185
02:00:40,080 --> 02:00:42,360
Speaker 2: I went up to em I to talk about David

2186
02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:46,480
Speaker 2: Austin debit. David aside with George and everyone hear Min

2187
02:00:46,600 --> 02:00:48,160
Speaker 2: was amazed, how can we fired you? Last week? He

2188
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:51,440
Speaker 2: was sitting here talking. But you know, he fired me

2189
02:00:51,480 --> 02:00:53,440
Speaker 2: from being a manager. He didn't farm for being a friend.

2190
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:56,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's just completely different things. There were good reasons,

2191
02:00:57,160 --> 02:00:59,360
Speaker 2: and he was right. I mean, he couldn't have headline

2192
02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:02,720
Speaker 2: is going to just worry or destroy his career. And

2193
02:01:04,240 --> 02:01:08,640
Speaker 2: so that was it. And then Harvey, I guess unsold

2194
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:12,600
Speaker 2: his company and we unsold it. That was it. They

2195
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:15,160
Speaker 2: didn't worry me. I couldn't have broken George in America

2196
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:18,600
Speaker 2: like he was broken I knew George was breaking up

2197
02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:21,160
Speaker 2: WHAM really because he was gay and he couldn't face

2198
02:01:21,240 --> 02:01:26,560
Speaker 2: the pressure of permanently having to dodge around and tell

2199
02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:31,520
Speaker 2: semi lies about his sexuality. And once he left, once

2200
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:34,880
Speaker 2: he broke them up, the whole idea for me was

2201
02:01:34,960 --> 02:01:38,560
Speaker 2: to become himself. And when he broke them up and

2202
02:01:38,680 --> 02:01:41,240
Speaker 2: then created a new image for himself which was even

2203
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:46,240
Speaker 2: more non gay and even more heterosexual than the image

2204
02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:48,760
Speaker 2: had had, I told him, and we were still talking,

2205
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:52,040
Speaker 2: that's going to kill you. You hate it. You can't

2206
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:55,040
Speaker 2: live with that image. And if I'd been managing him,

2207
02:01:55,120 --> 02:01:58,440
Speaker 2: I just I wouldn't have gone managing it anyway, or

2208
02:01:58,440 --> 02:02:01,800
Speaker 2: I just decided not to do it, and I could

2209
02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:03,440
Speaker 2: see what was going to happen. I mean, a year

2210
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:06,520
Speaker 2: of huge success and I you know, the two managers

2211
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 2: of the American Managers GOT did a brilliant job for

2212
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:11,120
Speaker 2: him and kept him going for that year Getting. He

2213
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:13,440
Speaker 2: was getting more and more unhappy throughout the whole period,

2214
02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:16,640
Speaker 2: and by the end of the year. I mean, I

2215
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:18,560
Speaker 2: did tell the story in the film I made about it,

2216
02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:21,480
Speaker 2: but at the end of the year he was he

2217
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:24,840
Speaker 2: was pretty I'm unable to go on with it. He

2218
02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:28,160
Speaker 2: knew he'd done emotionally the wrong thing. But the other hand,

2219
02:02:28,200 --> 02:02:30,720
Speaker 2: he had sixty million dollars in the back and that

2220
02:02:30,880 --> 02:02:32,520
Speaker 2: was him secure for the rest of his life, which

2221
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:36,400
Speaker 2: is something he did want. So I had no regrets

2222
02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:37,760
Speaker 2: because I don't look at him think I could have

2223
02:02:37,800 --> 02:02:39,800
Speaker 2: done that. There's no way I could have gone through

2224
02:02:39,840 --> 02:02:40,880
Speaker 2: that year with them in America.

2225
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:45,520
Speaker 1: Did you foresee his death at a young age?

2226
02:02:47,480 --> 02:02:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a very general question that's easy

2227
02:02:50,760 --> 02:02:54,800
Speaker 2: to answer, yes, because he had that about him. He

2228
02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:59,919
Speaker 2: had about him somebody who would. I think he forcedaw

2229
02:03:00,280 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 2: And when people foresaw things, it's sort of like wanting it,

2230
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:04,920
Speaker 2: isn't it. I mean, you know, a large part of

2231
02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:07,840
Speaker 2: an artist, an artist like George, he's not the only one.

2232
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 2: He's an artist in creating songs, as an artist in

2233
02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:14,600
Speaker 2: creating his image and his videos and the general look,

2234
02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:18,320
Speaker 2: but he's also his artist in creating the overall arc

2235
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:21,720
Speaker 2: of his story life. And he saw the arc of

2236
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:26,200
Speaker 2: a life story and he was far too aware not

2237
02:03:26,400 --> 02:03:30,520
Speaker 2: to be not to understand what a good a good

2238
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:36,200
Speaker 2: story arc for an artist is. And he's had two

2239
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:42,320
Speaker 2: bipolar relatives who'd committed suicide, and he was pretty obsessed

2240
02:03:42,360 --> 02:03:45,280
Speaker 2: with the idea that he might get driven to suicide.

2241
02:03:45,920 --> 02:03:48,360
Speaker 2: So whether he was suicidal or not, he did have

2242
02:03:48,520 --> 02:03:52,720
Speaker 2: in mind that he might die not a natural death

2243
02:03:52,760 --> 02:03:55,720
Speaker 2: at an old age. He always had that in mind,

2244
02:03:56,080 --> 02:03:58,920
Speaker 2: and he was not He was quite forthcoming about talking

2245
02:03:58,960 --> 02:04:04,440
Speaker 2: about it. He was a very perceptive person about himself,

2246
02:04:05,560 --> 02:04:09,640
Speaker 2: and I think he foresaw himself as not getting very old.

2247
02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:13,520
Speaker 2: Oh Gary old, being seventy or eighty. You know when

2248
02:04:13,840 --> 02:04:17,120
Speaker 2: when his voice as he did that, when he did

2249
02:04:17,160 --> 02:04:19,800
Speaker 2: that sympoonicatur, he looked at him and thought, you know,

2250
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:22,000
Speaker 2: he could be a Charles dazibor, he could be a

2251
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:24,600
Speaker 2: Tony Bennett. He could go out and sing other people's

2252
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:28,200
Speaker 2: songs almost better than his own songs. And going to

2253
02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:30,360
Speaker 2: a town with the Rufus waynerright song, he sang it

2254
02:04:30,480 --> 02:04:32,800
Speaker 2: so well that everybody thought it was his song. He

2255
02:04:32,960 --> 02:04:36,800
Speaker 2: just he owned these songs when he sang. He sang

2256
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:40,600
Speaker 2: other people's songs quite magnificently, and he could have been

2257
02:04:40,880 --> 02:04:45,480
Speaker 2: a very long term artist performing on their own. It

2258
02:04:46,080 --> 02:04:48,640
Speaker 2: didn't appeal to him at all. He wasn't interested. He

2259
02:04:48,760 --> 02:04:52,280
Speaker 2: wanted to create new music. We go back to one

2260
02:04:52,280 --> 02:04:55,880
Speaker 2: of the first questions you asked me, why can't older

2261
02:04:56,320 --> 02:05:02,440
Speaker 2: establish hugely skillful craftsmen still write hit songs. And the

2262
02:05:02,520 --> 02:05:05,120
Speaker 2: fact is the public don't want hit songs from those

2263
02:05:05,160 --> 02:05:07,160
Speaker 2: older people. They want them from the person they knew

2264
02:05:07,160 --> 02:05:09,640
Speaker 2: as a young person. They're happy for the older person

2265
02:05:09,720 --> 02:05:12,240
Speaker 2: to recreate the younger thing again, got was sing it.

2266
02:05:12,920 --> 02:05:14,640
Speaker 2: They don't want to hear new songs from them. The

2267
02:05:15,640 --> 02:05:18,880
Speaker 2: songwriting didn't just diminish because his ability to write songs

2268
02:05:18,920 --> 02:05:23,360
Speaker 2: to themishes. The public stopped wanting them. They want the

2269
02:05:23,440 --> 02:05:26,120
Speaker 2: young songs. That's my thing.

2270
02:05:27,560 --> 02:05:30,800
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you then segue into making movies?

2271
02:05:31,880 --> 02:05:33,720
Speaker 2: I just did what I should have done from the beginning.

2272
02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:39,440
Speaker 2: Movies was what I was brought up with. I looked

2273
02:05:39,480 --> 02:05:42,120
Speaker 2: at movies. I copped out of movies when I was

2274
02:05:42,200 --> 02:05:44,280
Speaker 2: younger because they took a long time and I was

2275
02:05:44,360 --> 02:05:47,560
Speaker 2: impatient and yan. And you know, when you make a movie,

2276
02:05:48,440 --> 02:05:51,760
Speaker 2: if you're talking about feature films, not talkingmentaries from the

2277
02:05:53,160 --> 02:05:55,960
Speaker 2: the concept, the first concept idea you have for a

2278
02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:57,760
Speaker 2: movie to when the movie is finished just four to

2279
02:05:57,880 --> 02:06:00,720
Speaker 2: five years. You have to get concept. You have to

2280
02:06:00,760 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 2: get the script, you have to raise the money, you

2281
02:06:02,360 --> 02:06:06,480
Speaker 2: have to make it promoted. You could make an album

2282
02:06:06,680 --> 02:06:09,880
Speaker 2: in the ninety sixties in a day. You could make

2283
02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:12,520
Speaker 2: an album today. Pick the best track out, have it

2284
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:16,160
Speaker 2: on radio two nights later. The speed was so youthful,

2285
02:06:16,240 --> 02:06:18,440
Speaker 2: so energetic, as so much what I loved and wanted

2286
02:06:18,480 --> 02:06:21,240
Speaker 2: to do. And once I was in the music industry,

2287
02:06:21,240 --> 02:06:23,040
Speaker 2: I was trapped. It was the music industry is a

2288
02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:28,040
Speaker 2: hugely enjoyable, fun, undisciplined world, and the film industry has

2289
02:06:28,120 --> 02:06:31,000
Speaker 2: to be disciplined. You can't be undisciplined. Too many people

2290
02:06:31,080 --> 02:06:34,200
Speaker 2: contribute to a film. I needed to contribute at every level,

2291
02:06:34,800 --> 02:06:38,200
Speaker 2: both the dull ones and the creative ones. They're all needed.

2292
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:41,480
Speaker 2: And so I opted out and had my fun. But

2293
02:06:41,560 --> 02:06:45,560
Speaker 2: by the time, by the time I got to the nineties,

2294
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:48,280
Speaker 2: I really wanted to make films. I wanted to do

2295
02:06:49,040 --> 02:06:52,600
Speaker 2: what I'd sort of always wanted to do but hadn't done.

2296
02:06:53,080 --> 02:06:57,200
Speaker 2: And it just fitted. It just fitted my personality and

2297
02:06:57,760 --> 02:07:00,480
Speaker 2: how I wanted to live. And as much what I mean,

2298
02:07:00,480 --> 02:07:02,560
Speaker 2: I'm work more fun than writing books because I went

2299
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:05,040
Speaker 2: to writing books first. I'd always thought I should be

2300
02:07:05,040 --> 02:07:07,000
Speaker 2: a writer. I wrote books, and I wrote three or

2301
02:07:07,040 --> 02:07:09,480
Speaker 2: four very well received, very good books. But writing books

2302
02:07:09,560 --> 02:07:12,480
Speaker 2: is so tedious. I mean you sit for a year

2303
02:07:12,560 --> 02:07:15,160
Speaker 2: and than a room by yourself and have all the

2304
02:07:15,240 --> 02:07:17,720
Speaker 2: self doubts which you get with anything when you create,

2305
02:07:17,960 --> 02:07:20,320
Speaker 2: but you have them all bottled apping yourself for a

2306
02:07:20,440 --> 02:07:25,000
Speaker 2: year and not fun at all. Making movies is very relaxed.

2307
02:07:25,360 --> 02:07:29,400
Speaker 2: It's communal, you're out with people, you're talking and discussing things.

2308
02:07:29,560 --> 02:07:31,120
Speaker 2: You have to compromise a bit more than you do

2309
02:07:31,360 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 2: with writing, but it's a pleasant life. And there's no

2310
02:07:36,120 --> 02:07:38,840
Speaker 2: age barrier either. You know my age now in the

2311
02:07:38,880 --> 02:07:42,880
Speaker 2: film business, in record business, it's incredibly difficult persuade people

2312
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:45,400
Speaker 2: that some of my age should have should be effective

2313
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,520
Speaker 2: in the record business. If you write down the top

2314
02:07:48,640 --> 02:07:52,040
Speaker 2: grossing the top twenty grossing film directors in the world,

2315
02:07:52,680 --> 02:07:55,960
Speaker 2: half of them are over seventy and five of those

2316
02:07:56,000 --> 02:07:58,760
Speaker 2: are over eighty. So there's no age barrier to making films.

2317
02:07:59,120 --> 02:08:02,400
Speaker 2: So it felt like and comfortable to get into for

2318
02:08:02,520 --> 02:08:03,160
Speaker 2: the last lap.

2319
02:08:04,840 --> 02:08:09,600
Speaker 1: Okay, it is public knowledge you are eighty five. Ironically

2320
02:08:09,680 --> 02:08:12,800
Speaker 1: you share my birthday a pl twenty second along with

2321
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:17,520
Speaker 1: Peter Frampton. Yeah, is someone who did not know that.

2322
02:08:17,960 --> 02:08:24,360
Speaker 1: Listening to you, you are as sharp as anybody consciously there.

2323
02:08:24,560 --> 02:08:27,280
Speaker 1: Do you still see runway do you still things you

2324
02:08:27,360 --> 02:08:30,280
Speaker 1: want to achieve? Do you act like, Wow, I'm gonna

2325
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:33,960
Speaker 1: live for another fifteen years, or do you say, hey, man,

2326
02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:37,320
Speaker 1: every day's a blessing. You know, how do you approach it?

2327
02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:40,640
Speaker 2: I've never managed to do that. I read people who

2328
02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:43,880
Speaker 2: get ill, when they're recovered, they say, ah, every day's

2329
02:08:43,880 --> 02:08:47,000
Speaker 2: a blessing. I can't think about that when every day

2330
02:08:47,160 --> 02:08:49,040
Speaker 2: is nice and a pain in the ass all the

2331
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:52,280
Speaker 2: things that are us. Nothing has changed. Really, there are

2332
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:55,800
Speaker 2: good days and bad daysn't much more likely every day

2333
02:08:55,880 --> 02:08:58,520
Speaker 2: has the good and the bad. I've read things in

2334
02:08:58,600 --> 02:09:01,200
Speaker 2: your column time to time when you were really very ill,

2335
02:09:01,520 --> 02:09:04,560
Speaker 2: and I thought, God, Bob, Bob, he's not gonna last

2336
02:09:04,560 --> 02:09:06,520
Speaker 2: a bit longer, much longer. And then a couple of

2337
02:09:06,560 --> 02:09:08,280
Speaker 2: weeks ago you were writing about how you like to

2338
02:09:08,360 --> 02:09:10,680
Speaker 2: be perfect at all times, and you you're currently you

2339
02:09:10,800 --> 02:09:14,920
Speaker 2: are they see you weren't so well after all. I've

2340
02:09:14,960 --> 02:09:17,720
Speaker 2: got Listen, you get to eighty five when people say

2341
02:09:17,760 --> 02:09:20,400
Speaker 2: how are you? The easiest thing to hand them a list?

2342
02:09:20,880 --> 02:09:22,960
Speaker 2: You know there's going to be five or six things

2343
02:09:23,040 --> 02:09:25,360
Speaker 2: wrong with me. If I was fifty and I had

2344
02:09:25,400 --> 02:09:28,280
Speaker 2: those things wrong with me, I'd be horrified. With any

2345
02:09:28,320 --> 02:09:30,280
Speaker 2: one of them. But you learn to live with them,

2346
02:09:30,840 --> 02:09:32,720
Speaker 2: and you learn to cope with them, and they're just

2347
02:09:33,280 --> 02:09:36,880
Speaker 2: just annoyances. But you have to be aware. I've got

2348
02:09:36,880 --> 02:09:40,000
Speaker 2: a little chart I found in them online a few

2349
02:09:40,040 --> 02:09:43,480
Speaker 2: weeks ago. At eighty five, your chances of living beyond

2350
02:09:43,560 --> 02:09:46,280
Speaker 2: one year only fifteen percent. So there's an eighty five

2351
02:09:46,320 --> 02:09:49,880
Speaker 2: percent chance eighty five percents I won't be live next year.

2352
02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:54,440
Speaker 2: Funnily enough, each year you live longer, that chance gets greater,

2353
02:09:54,880 --> 02:09:57,240
Speaker 2: because the average age of death is eighty three y four.

2354
02:09:57,280 --> 02:09:59,400
Speaker 2: If you go past that, you're now into the people

2355
02:09:59,440 --> 02:09:59,960
Speaker 2: who live longer.

2356
02:10:00,280 --> 02:10:04,040
Speaker 4: Even but as they say, the longer you live, the

2357
02:10:04,200 --> 02:10:06,400
Speaker 4: longer you live, you might do. Yeah, it's like shows

2358
02:10:06,440 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 4: in Las Vegas. There's an interesting go back to Las

2359
02:10:08,480 --> 02:10:11,160
Speaker 4: Vegas show. Everywhere in the world, when a shows run

2360
02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:13,240
Speaker 4: a long time, it's going to come off soon. And

2361
02:10:13,360 --> 02:10:15,720
Speaker 4: in Vegas, the longer it runs, the more it becomes

2362
02:10:15,800 --> 02:10:19,040
Speaker 4: a part of Vegas. And long term Vegas shows never

2363
02:10:19,120 --> 02:10:21,920
Speaker 4: come off. And our shows hit that point, they've now

2364
02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:24,720
Speaker 4: given us a Las Vegas day. We have a rating

2365
02:10:24,760 --> 02:10:26,280
Speaker 4: a rock balled day in Las Vegas.

2366
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:28,720
Speaker 2: Every day. That means they expect you to be there forever,

2367
02:10:29,360 --> 02:10:33,640
Speaker 2: So I'd like a Simon Api bail day here forever.

2368
02:10:35,120 --> 02:10:38,000
Speaker 2: I plan almost as if I'm going to be around,

2369
02:10:38,080 --> 02:10:41,080
Speaker 2: But you know, I don't bother. I'm working on movies,

2370
02:10:41,080 --> 02:10:45,480
Speaker 2: and I don't bother much with scripted movies, with that

2371
02:10:45,640 --> 02:10:48,400
Speaker 2: sort of stuff, because it's about a five year prep time.

2372
02:10:48,600 --> 02:10:51,200
Speaker 2: If I had the most brilliant idea and everybody agreed

2373
02:10:51,200 --> 02:10:53,200
Speaker 2: that it's brilliant, and everybody says, we want to put

2374
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:55,280
Speaker 2: money and this is this is an amazing film, this

2375
02:10:55,480 --> 02:10:58,040
Speaker 2: is going to happen, it'll still be five years before

2376
02:10:58,040 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 2: it's on the screen. That seems to be longer than

2377
02:11:00,440 --> 02:11:03,080
Speaker 2: it's worth getting involved at eighty five. So I go

2378
02:11:03,200 --> 02:11:05,200
Speaker 2: for documentaries where you can have an idea now and

2379
02:11:05,280 --> 02:11:06,880
Speaker 2: it could be you could be making it in a

2380
02:11:06,960 --> 02:11:09,520
Speaker 2: few weeks. And I'm working on two films currently, you know,

2381
02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:12,640
Speaker 2: just pretty good be interested to have two films at once,

2382
02:11:12,880 --> 02:11:16,720
Speaker 2: So I'm pretty happy with it. One of those two films,

2383
02:11:17,240 --> 02:11:20,360
Speaker 2: I'm making one about the Marquee Club. And my actually,

2384
02:11:20,520 --> 02:11:23,920
Speaker 2: my feeling about the Marque Club was what would be

2385
02:11:24,000 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 2: interesting is not to make a film just about a club.

2386
02:11:25,960 --> 02:11:28,120
Speaker 2: I've seen a couple of American films about clubs, one

2387
02:11:28,120 --> 02:11:30,520
Speaker 2: about the Go Go and Whiskey and Gogan, one about

2388
02:11:31,240 --> 02:11:33,760
Speaker 2: the La Club. They get a bit boring, just endless.

2389
02:11:33,800 --> 02:11:36,440
Speaker 2: People say, hey, way man, you know everyone was down there,

2390
02:11:36,560 --> 02:11:39,760
Speaker 2: Brad Pitt was smashed. I looked at the Marque Club

2391
02:11:39,760 --> 02:11:43,400
Speaker 2: and I thought, the story is how trad jazz turned

2392
02:11:43,440 --> 02:11:45,920
Speaker 2: into skiffle turned into rock. The story I told you

2393
02:11:46,000 --> 02:11:49,600
Speaker 2: earlier that all happened at the Marque Club. The Marque

2394
02:11:49,680 --> 02:11:52,600
Speaker 2: Club was a trad jazz club which became a skiffle club,

2395
02:11:52,640 --> 02:11:55,400
Speaker 2: which became the Rhythm of Blews Company. It became the

2396
02:11:55,520 --> 02:11:58,240
Speaker 2: birthplace of rock, and then every major rock group played there.

2397
02:11:58,800 --> 02:12:00,720
Speaker 2: So we're really looking at the story of the music

2398
02:12:01,000 --> 02:12:03,480
Speaker 2: and the evolution. A two or three part series on that,

2399
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:06,360
Speaker 2: but all at the Marquee Club, because that is where

2400
02:12:06,400 --> 02:12:09,880
Speaker 2: it happened. So that film's underway and we've got a

2401
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:13,400
Speaker 2: great number of people. I went into viewed Phil Collins

2402
02:12:13,440 --> 02:12:17,440
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. Great keep Phil Collins at

2403
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:21,960
Speaker 2: fifteen left school every day at three o'clock and took

2404
02:12:22,000 --> 02:12:25,000
Speaker 2: the train into town and arranged the chairs and the

2405
02:12:25,120 --> 02:12:27,360
Speaker 2: Marquee clubs so they'd let him in free. And he

2406
02:12:27,400 --> 02:12:30,120
Speaker 2: could sit in the front row. He did that for

2407
02:12:30,240 --> 02:12:34,040
Speaker 2: two years, so every single group is great. That's the

2408
02:12:34,080 --> 02:12:36,640
Speaker 2: story we wanted more than the story of his stardom later.

2409
02:12:38,920 --> 02:12:41,240
Speaker 2: Enormous number of people who went through this whole process.

2410
02:12:41,400 --> 02:12:45,440
Speaker 2: It's a very exciting fun film to make. Fat They

2411
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:48,440
Speaker 2: come to La shortly and we're talking to Big Fleetwood

2412
02:12:48,560 --> 02:12:53,600
Speaker 2: and Brown Auger and the other film I'm doing is

2413
02:12:53,760 --> 02:12:57,600
Speaker 2: the Wham to China film and the story of taking

2414
02:12:57,640 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 2: Wam to China. It's an amazing story because I glossed

2415
02:13:00,800 --> 02:13:02,880
Speaker 2: over it with you when I was telling it tonight,

2416
02:13:02,960 --> 02:13:05,520
Speaker 2: because it goes on a long time. But how I've

2417
02:13:05,520 --> 02:13:10,360
Speaker 2: persuaded all those ministers to take Wan, and how the

2418
02:13:10,440 --> 02:13:14,960
Speaker 2: thing evolved, and there was an extraordinary story. You know,

2419
02:13:15,240 --> 02:13:18,200
Speaker 2: artists are very up and down. George not the least.

2420
02:13:19,200 --> 02:13:22,560
Speaker 2: It took fifteen months ago into China, every single month,

2421
02:13:23,040 --> 02:13:26,240
Speaker 2: and I fed ministers. That's why I got it. I'd

2422
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:29,200
Speaker 2: bought lunch in a Beijing which had no good foods.

2423
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:32,080
Speaker 2: There was one great restaurant and the only hotel foreigners

2424
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:34,120
Speaker 2: were allowed to stay up and they had a great

2425
02:13:34,160 --> 02:13:36,320
Speaker 2: restaurant because it was paid for and dollars so they

2426
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:40,080
Speaker 2: could get an important good food. The food in Beijing

2427
02:13:40,200 --> 02:13:43,520
Speaker 2: wasn't good. And every week I got more and more

2428
02:13:43,560 --> 02:13:45,320
Speaker 2: ministers to come who were really coming just because they

2429
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:49,160
Speaker 2: loved the meal and didn't even want the thing to

2430
02:13:49,240 --> 02:13:50,720
Speaker 2: come off because when it did, it at the end

2431
02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:54,720
Speaker 2: of their dinners or under their lunches. And I'd report

2432
02:13:54,840 --> 02:13:57,760
Speaker 2: back every month to George and Andrew and say what's

2433
02:13:57,800 --> 02:14:00,480
Speaker 2: going on. I could see we were getting there, and

2434
02:14:00,560 --> 02:14:02,880
Speaker 2: we finally pulled it off. And when I flew back

2435
02:14:02,960 --> 02:14:07,000
Speaker 2: finally and I had the invitation, I got to London,

2436
02:14:07,080 --> 02:14:09,360
Speaker 2: I told my secretary call a press conference tomorrow. We're

2437
02:14:09,360 --> 02:14:11,920
Speaker 2: going to announce it. Caught up George Andrews had come

2438
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:14,640
Speaker 2: to dinner and tell um, we've done it. We're going

2439
02:14:14,680 --> 02:14:17,360
Speaker 2: to play in China. And George said, I change your mind.

2440
02:14:17,400 --> 02:14:22,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to do it, and he was serious

2441
02:14:22,480 --> 02:14:24,760
Speaker 2: and absolutely don't want to do it. Just completely change.

2442
02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:27,520
Speaker 2: It's not what I want to do. And Andrew and

2443
02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:31,080
Speaker 2: I just sat and argument for an hour over dinner,

2444
02:14:31,680 --> 02:14:34,800
Speaker 2: and finally George said, well, I'll do it, but no

2445
02:14:35,000 --> 02:14:39,960
Speaker 2: journalists saw reporters, which was the whole purpose of doing it. Well,

2446
02:14:40,000 --> 02:14:42,040
Speaker 2: of course, three weeks later he bounced out in the

2447
02:14:42,040 --> 02:14:45,640
Speaker 2: stage and we're three hundred film crews, journalists, reporters, photographers,

2448
02:14:46,760 --> 02:14:50,960
Speaker 2: and he didn't mind at all. You just like all artists,

2449
02:14:51,040 --> 02:14:55,000
Speaker 2: they get nerves that one minute they're megalomaniacs. They're so

2450
02:14:55,200 --> 02:14:58,640
Speaker 2: full of confidence. You wanted calm them and said, come on,

2451
02:14:58,880 --> 02:15:01,120
Speaker 2: you know things can go wrong, be careful, and other

2452
02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:04,080
Speaker 2: minutes they just collapse in a bundle of nerves. He

2453
02:15:04,200 --> 02:15:06,240
Speaker 2: had those moments, like any good artist should.

2454
02:15:08,120 --> 02:15:10,400
Speaker 1: Just going back to the movies, how much money do

2455
02:15:10,520 --> 02:15:12,880
Speaker 1: these movies cost and where do the money come from?

2456
02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:16,879
Speaker 2: Well, I made for I made one about Frank Sinatra

2457
02:15:17,320 --> 02:15:20,160
Speaker 2: on what would have been his hundredth birthy. That was

2458
02:15:20,200 --> 02:15:26,240
Speaker 2: a ninety minute film for Netflix, about three hundred and

2459
02:15:26,280 --> 02:15:29,560
Speaker 2: fifty four hundred thousand. Then I made one called twenty

2460
02:15:29,640 --> 02:15:32,760
Speaker 2: seven Gone Too Soon about the twenty seventh Club. Really

2461
02:15:32,840 --> 02:15:34,880
Speaker 2: interesting because when I started it, I thought it was

2462
02:15:34,960 --> 02:15:36,720
Speaker 2: just a load of rubbish, and when I studied it,

2463
02:15:37,400 --> 02:15:40,680
Speaker 2: I found no load of rubbish at all. Twenty seven

2464
02:15:40,800 --> 02:15:45,960
Speaker 2: is the age your frontal lobe becomes mature and frontal

2465
02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:49,280
Speaker 2: low gives you cause and effect. And that's the moment

2466
02:15:49,360 --> 02:15:52,840
Speaker 2: when people doubt themselves because they suddenly realize that giving

2467
02:15:52,920 --> 02:15:54,920
Speaker 2: up their opportunity to be a doctor or a scientist

2468
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:57,480
Speaker 2: by leaving university to become a rock star, and is

2469
02:15:57,560 --> 02:15:59,400
Speaker 2: it what I want? So this is a very good

2470
02:15:59,480 --> 02:16:02,560
Speaker 2: reason for these high level of death sort of suicides

2471
02:16:02,600 --> 02:16:05,960
Speaker 2: to happen. Then I made a film called fifty Years Legal,

2472
02:16:06,040 --> 02:16:09,760
Speaker 2: which is to mark the fiftieth Ani versus Brittain, a

2473
02:16:09,840 --> 02:16:13,440
Speaker 2: decriminized sol and sexiarity that costs about that costs about

2474
02:16:13,440 --> 02:16:17,320
Speaker 2: half a million, and we've got every single gay personality

2475
02:16:17,360 --> 02:16:20,200
Speaker 2: in Britain and David Hotney and Stephen Fryan just everybody

2476
02:16:20,400 --> 02:16:23,520
Speaker 2: to talking that. And then this one about George George

2477
02:16:23,560 --> 02:16:28,000
Speaker 2: Michael portrait of an artist, same sort of same sort

2478
02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:31,240
Speaker 2: of money you're talking about it. Half the problem with

2479
02:16:31,320 --> 02:16:34,840
Speaker 2: all these films is when you're interviewing. When you're doing

2480
02:16:35,120 --> 02:16:38,440
Speaker 2: interviews and talking heads to us stars, they're not easy

2481
02:16:38,520 --> 02:16:40,160
Speaker 2: to get. You have to go where they are, so

2482
02:16:40,320 --> 02:16:41,840
Speaker 2: you end up on a lot of travel and a

2483
02:16:41,879 --> 02:16:45,760
Speaker 2: lot of wasted time, you know, four days flying somewhere

2484
02:16:45,800 --> 02:16:50,080
Speaker 2: to talk to one person's that's an extravagance. And the

2485
02:16:50,200 --> 02:16:55,440
Speaker 2: one I'm doing now, the Marquee, we it's privately raised money,

2486
02:16:55,480 --> 02:16:57,480
Speaker 2: but we've got the money for a ninety minute film,

2487
02:16:57,520 --> 02:16:59,920
Speaker 2: but we're getting so much material we think it needs

2488
02:17:00,120 --> 02:17:02,760
Speaker 2: to be probably a three three times one hour, even

2489
02:17:02,760 --> 02:17:05,600
Speaker 2: a four times one hour, because when we get to

2490
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:08,840
Speaker 2: rock music actually happening, it fragments into so many different

2491
02:17:08,879 --> 02:17:14,119
Speaker 2: areas to pro crock, punk, rock, golf rock, and it'd

2492
02:17:14,160 --> 02:17:18,680
Speaker 2: be nice to follow the follow It could could snowball

2493
02:17:18,720 --> 02:17:20,560
Speaker 2: into a bigger film, but again, a sort of a

2494
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:23,560
Speaker 2: half million pound budget for six hundred thousand dollars bout

2495
02:17:23,560 --> 02:17:26,400
Speaker 2: it for a nineteen minute film and if it goes

2496
02:17:26,480 --> 02:17:28,840
Speaker 2: into a three times one hour, probably going up to

2497
02:17:28,879 --> 02:17:29,280
Speaker 2: two million.

2498
02:17:31,800 --> 02:17:34,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Simon, I think we're going to stop here. We

2499
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:37,560
Speaker 1: hit the outlines of your career. We hit a few

2500
02:17:37,640 --> 02:17:42,760
Speaker 1: deep stories, the stuff about Skiffel. That's the best explanation

2501
02:17:42,920 --> 02:17:46,760
Speaker 1: I've ever heard. Like I was riveted. I know you

2502
02:17:46,959 --> 02:17:51,760
Speaker 1: have more insight like that. We'll have to continue another time,

2503
02:17:52,280 --> 02:17:55,280
Speaker 1: but thanks so much for taking this time with my audience.

2504
02:17:55,760 --> 02:17:58,200
Speaker 2: Thank you. You're a great person to talk to. You

2505
02:17:58,760 --> 02:18:00,600
Speaker 2: just sit and look and smile, but you know how

2506
02:18:00,640 --> 02:18:03,200
Speaker 2: to get it out of people. Thank you, And just

2507
02:18:03,280 --> 02:18:06,440
Speaker 2: to gravel a little bit. I love your writing. I

2508
02:18:06,600 --> 02:18:09,440
Speaker 2: love your writing because it's not corrected. It's the complete

2509
02:18:09,600 --> 02:18:13,279
Speaker 2: officer of my writing, which is very polished and corrected,

2510
02:18:13,959 --> 02:18:16,400
Speaker 2: and yours isn't. And I can't do that. I'd have

2511
02:18:16,480 --> 02:18:18,440
Speaker 2: to be able to do it, but I can't. It

2512
02:18:18,560 --> 02:18:22,680
Speaker 2: reminds me of Kerallac and the Beach Generation, and you

2513
02:18:22,800 --> 02:18:27,440
Speaker 2: write in a wonderful, flowing, impulsive way. You know.

2514
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:29,960
Speaker 1: The funny thing I've learned, thank you very much, is

2515
02:18:31,440 --> 02:18:34,440
Speaker 1: I used to explain this stuff that I really people

2516
02:18:34,440 --> 02:18:37,040
Speaker 1: don't really want the explanation. They just want to read it,

2517
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:41,120
Speaker 1: so I won't explain it. But in any event, thank

2518
02:18:41,160 --> 02:18:44,959
Speaker 1: you very much. We'll do this again. Until next time.

2519
02:18:45,280 --> 02:18:46,560
Speaker 1: This is Bob Love Set