WEBVTT - Axie Infinity, the Crypto Game That’s Grown Over 200x This Year Alone 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.240 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.799 I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wi Joe. I feel 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.479 like we may have had this conversation before, but, um, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.000 did you ever play Magic the Gathering growing up? No? 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:27.960 I never did, And I kind of think it's weird 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.080 because maybe I'm like the type of person who would 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.880 have you were right. You did, right, Yeah I did. 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.240 But so I can see you sort of being interested 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.680 in it from a like Poker slash Mats perspective, Yeah, 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:42.599 I should have been. I should have been. Yeah, I 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.760 was more into it from a collecting perspective. I mean 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.240 I did play, but for me, like, I just liked 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.960 collecting all the cards. But the reason I bring it 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.280 up is because one of the interesting things about Magic 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.440 the Gathering was there was this whole ecosystem built around 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.080 this card collecting card playing game, and the company that 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.880 ran it was called Wizards of the Coast, and every 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.679 once in a while they would encounter major problems where 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.560 you know, the price of cards would suddenly get out 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.920 of whack, or the game wasn't as much fun to 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.400 play because they've released a bunch of cards that had 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.000 like special powers and things like that, and then they 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.680 had to figure out ways to fix the entire system 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.040 um and it was really interesting to sort of see 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.480 them do it and managed to. I guess they sort 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:34.479 of managed to avoid the fate that has overtaken so 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.280 many fads over the years, like think about beanie babies, right, 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.280 those are the classic example. But like magic, the gathering 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.959 has been going for years and they managed to keep 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.720 the system going totally and people are still really into 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.960 it and somehow, you know, even in people are still 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:53.840 playing it, And I think you make you make a 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:58.240 really good point, which is that they've kept successful despite 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:00.800 the fact that there is clearly a lot of speculation 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.440 in car like one could imagine a scenario in which 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.520 people are just in the cards for like the monetary aspect, 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.000 and then the gameplay sort of falls off because maybe 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.360 they get too expensive or whatever. But somehow they seem 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.760 to have strunk fine balance where yes, people pay a 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.200 lot for cards, and in fact, I think like recently 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.760 they're like some record cards even like just in the 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.919 last like several weeks or months, but the game itself 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.720 is still played enthusiastically by a lot of people. Yeah, exactly, 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:30.480 that's a really good way of putting it. So, um, 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:32.680 the reason I bring it up is not because we 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.359 were going to be talking about Magic the Gathering specifically 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:37.320 we should at some point, Yeah, I was gonna say 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.359 I would love to do that episode, but because we're 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.079 going to talk about a sort of brand new game 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.880 that gives me a lot of flashbacks to Magic. But 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.760 it's very much a new game in the sense that 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.920 it is it sort of brings together everything in the 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.760 world of crypto, like cryptocurrencies and f t s, non 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:02.560 fungible tokens, blockchain. It brings them altogether in the metaverse. Yeah, 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:08.400 exactly into one ecosystem and it's just exploded in popularity 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.480 in not recent years, right, And you know, I'll let 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.679 you do the proper intro. But one thing, just going 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.680 back to Magic real quickly before we move on. It's like, 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:20.880 you know, one of the things with Magic is like 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.480 you own your cards, right, you own your debt, and 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.600 with typical games online, you don't. You know, you think 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:30.680 about something, I don't know a game that people play, 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.200 I don't. I don't want to sound boomers, so I 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.600 like World of Warcraft. I don't know if anyone still 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.839 plays it. Whatever, it's like you don't really own your 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.680 character in the traditional sense, like you log into your character, 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.840 but it's not yours. And so with this idea of 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.640 like crypto gaming and really it's crypto in general, and 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:52.840 and of teas in general, et cetera, is this bridging 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.240 of the notion of ownership that this is a thing, 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.240 whether it's a character, whether it's token or whatever, it's 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.480 yours and you and move it from one environment to 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.200 the next. And so kind of like magic, you own 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.240 your card. In this world of crypto gaming, there's this 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.840 sense of ownership that hasn't existed in online or video 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.640 gaming previously, right, And of course you can make money 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.920 from that ownership as well. So if you earn, you know, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.400 cryptocurrency in this gaming system, you can take it to 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.440 a crypto exchange and convert it into something else. So 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:24.760 maybe maybe we should just get on with it, because 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.240 we do have tons to talk about. We're gonna be 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.240 talking about Axie Infinity. Um, you might have heard of 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.440 it already. We have Alexander Leonard. He's the CEO and 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.039 co founder of Skymavis and axiuh and he's been kind 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.000 enough to come on the show. So Alex, Welcome to 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.480 a thought. Thanks. Basically, I'm I'm excited to be here. 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.840 I love the intro, by the way, as as a 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:54.719 Magic the Gathering player for over twenty years myself, definitely 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.720 to what's happening here. I definitely love that equalsystem and 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.760 how it evolves so well. So maybe just as an 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.520 intro you can kind of describe axe Um for anyone 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.520 who isn't familiar with it. I mean, we sort of 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.080 touched on it, but it is kind of unique in 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.799 the sense that it brings together all these different aspects 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.280 of the crypto world, but it also brings together some 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.599 things we've seen before. But you know, social networks and 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.400 this idea of like creating an ecosystem that very much 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:28.120 looks like a kind of contained economy. Yeah, sure that. 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.560 I mean, there is so much to unpack here. I 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:31.960 think a lot of what you guys mentioned, I mean, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.760 the buzzwords are what drives attention to to the product. 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.640 But at a very high level, what we're making here 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:43.239 is is just a fun game using your ax digital 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.360 pet characters that then can be used in many, many 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.240 different games. Now, some of those games are the ones 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.880 that we as a team create so the one that's 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.640 most popular right now, it's it's the Battle game, where 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.760 you have your team of three Axi game characters and 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.480 you play against other players who also have a team 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.880 of of act game characters. And then there are many 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.039 other kind of sub games or different things that you 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.280 can use them for, such as Breeding of Actions, which 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.320 is another game. And then more games are coming such 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.960 as in All the Land or Kingdom based game, which 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.320 is more on that metadverse side. What we see is 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.200 that or the way that we've structured is that all 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.320 these games are connected. So the main characters that you have, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.600 they travel across all of these different games, and that 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:29.599 again gives them more value, higher collectibility, and also more utility. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.280 And it's been you know, almost four years since we 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.839 started now, so it's it's interesting to see that the 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.919 world has kind of caught up to our vision. And 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.359 now of course we're probably a product cycle ahead of 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.120 pretty much all of our competitors, so very unique, and 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.200 that's also why we have all of these players who 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.559 are coming in, you know, right now, over two million 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:51.880 daily active players, even though they can't they can't get 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.120 the application on any app stores like they have two sideloaded, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.159 they have to go get there. Well, that's biocrypto stuff. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.000 It's very high, a very high barrier to entry still, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:03.920 but what we see is that the benefit that we're 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.840 enabling for these users in terms of true ownership and 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:08.680 in terms of you know what they can actually use 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.360 the game characters for, it's so unique that it has 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.560 never really existed in the same way before, because we're 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.720 combining all of the facets of new technology with some 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.160 you know, a nice game design from the past, and 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:24.120 then again making a quite a large ecosystem. So let's 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.720 talk a little bit more about the economics. There's seem 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.520 there's multiple assets, right, so the axes that one owns, 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.760 the three characters that you buy for battles, etcetera. Those 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:37.760 I guess are like n f T s and I 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.920 think people like by potion and that adds its own token. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:42.840 Why do you talk to us a little bit about this? 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:45.600 And it's all going up like crazy, like I think 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.200 this year, like if you were if you were playing 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.640 actually last year, everything's up like two hundredfold or some 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:53.480 incredible amount due to the rush of in game But 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:54.760 why do you talk to us a little bit more 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.360 about the sort of like the ownable assets that exist 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.200 in game and how they interact. Sure, I mean, so 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.040 when we look at when we look at as the 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.720 first step that you know, people see as the Axecute 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.280 game character. Each of those characters are unique, so they 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.480 are defined as n f T s and they can 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.920 be used across different games, and you need three to 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.720 play the game, as I said, And when you're playing 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.040 the game, you can earn another token or win a 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.080 token which is called the Smooth Love Portion or SLP, 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.880 and that SLP token is then required to play the 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.520 other game, which is the Breeding game, and it gives 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.079 that value so to say that when whenever you want 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.800 to create a new Axi, you need to have this 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.319 SLP token. If you don't have it, then all new 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.800 Axes can ever be created. So each actially that's in 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.000 existence right now is actually the result of some other 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.200 human being that has played the Axi game generated the 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.079 SLP token and then used that to create a new 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.920 Axe through breathing. So that's how that part of the 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.680 economy works. And then we've also got the a excess token, 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.120 which is kind of the governance token for for the 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.600 Action Infinity game universe and that's you know, highly limited, 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.760 two hundred and seventy million of those in existence, and 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.959 it started out at a price of ten cents last 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:19.480 year and now it's it's over one per token. So 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.120 I mean, the the appreciation it has has been quite heavy, 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.320 and that's because it's kind of tied to to some 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.200 of the revenue streams that are that are going into 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.920 the ACTI Infinity game. Can you talk a little bit 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.200 about the revenue streams, because you know, this is like 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.520 both one of the strengths and I guess the criticisms 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.640 of the entire thing. So one of the reasons actually 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.160 is getting a lot of attention is because people are 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.040 making quite a bit of money from playing the game. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.959 And this is how I first came across it. My 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:54.040 Bloomberg colleague Christine Servando. She wrote a really great piece 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.880 about how lots of people in the Philippines are basically 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.920 quitting their jobs and just playing ax You full time 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.000 and making enough money to live on. But at the 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.280 same time, there's been some criticism of the business model 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.760 from people who say, well, this is just sort of unsustainable. 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.040 There's this really high entry cost, you know, people have 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.640 to pay. Well, you can maybe update me on this, 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.560 but I think it's like a minimum of six eight 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.120 hundred dollars in order to get the axes that you 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.960 need in order to start playing. And so it feels 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.960 like you're sort of making money from the stream of 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.520 new players who are coming into this. So maybe you 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.839 can just break down where the revenues are actually coming 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.280 from for us. Yeah. Sure, So when you look at 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.160 how the SLP token, you know it's coming into existence, 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.520 that's related to whenever people are playing the game, and 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.320 that's well, the farming of of SLP when you were 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.360 when you were a player, you can farm you know, 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.760 small love potions or smooth love potions for between twelve 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.920 to fifteen dollars per day. That's the that's the current value, 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.360 and that has been fluctuating quite heavily over the pastor 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.120 and I would say three to four months. So at 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.280 one point maybe a player could earn even thirty to 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.000 forty dollars per day, and that was of course very 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.559 attractive for a lot of people. Now it's more normalized 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.680 to what it was before, you know, a massive run 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.240 up in users. When we are thinking about the long 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.679 term sustainability of acting, where we consider ourselves right now 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.760 is that Okay, we have two million daily active players. 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.160 All of those players they will need they need three 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.400 access right, so that's at least six million axes that 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.880 are required for for those two million players, and in existence, 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:36.920 we have about eight million axes or a little bit 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.400 less than that, that have been bread so far. And 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.000 if we then look at, you know, what is the 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.480 total addressable market for something like ACTI, Well, the way 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.680 we've defined it is that we don't we actually don't 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.800 compete against traditional games in the same way we might 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.640 actually compete against work against those players, those people in 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.440 the world who are unemployed or who are earning you know, 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.240 less than let's say fifteen dollars per day, so that 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.880 might be and I mean, the game is fun, it's enjoyable, 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.160 we have a large community, but at the same time, 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.439 we can tap into a brand new user base has 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.520 never even you know, considered a game in the same 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.360 way like a job in the metaverse, so that you know, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.199 for us, leads those to believe that maybe we can 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.280 reach even one billion or two billion people. And that 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.160 means that there's still a lot of acxes that need 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.400 to be produced for the foreseeable future. It's totally fine 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.160 that SLP is being waited so that other players can 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.360 breed for that and so which then again is the 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.920 criticism that people will come with. But for us, that's 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.600 that's totally fine because we need these acts in existence. Now, 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.280 the question cons what happens when when we reach the 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.400 total addressable market, when we have you know, let's say 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.880 one billion or two billion players. Well, that's exactly when 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.040 Acts Infinity has to kind of evolve a little bit 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.600 from being displaced where there's a gold rusher of people 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:51.680 who want to breed access into more of a network 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.640 I would say social network where people are actually hanging 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.960 around in the game, they're having fun, they're going on 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.160 different adventures, they're playing many, many different games that we 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.960 and also the community can create. So I think that 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.280 is already a very proven model in terms of you know, 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.960 let's say roadblocks for example, how many players do they 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.839 have and nobody is you know, earning anything. So I 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.880 think everything is about getting that early user base involved 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.079 into your game so that they can fall in love 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.320 with the game, falling over the art, and you know, 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.480 stay inside this ecosystem, and then eventually we can evolve 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:26.880 from there. But I think actually the Roadblocks comparison is 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.480 interesting because you said the operative thing, which is that 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.640 people love playing Roadblocks despite the fact that there's, uh, 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.679 you know, there's no money involved. Maybe some people are 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.240 making money, but by and large that is not the motivation. 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.679 And throughout years, people have loved all kinds of games 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.559 that don't involve money. People love chess or people like, 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:49.920 you know, first person shooter games. Maybe there are some 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.920 tournaments or whatever you can win money, but money is 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:57.960 not essential to the enjoyability of those games. And so 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:02.679 I think, like, still, what maybe bothers people about Axe 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.319 or what is like, is the game fun now? Do 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.079 people have fun now playing the game or is it 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.600 this sort of like digital trudgery where it's like, okay, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.559 yes you can make money. But if there was no 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.040 money by clicking over and over, or by earning this potion, 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.200 or by breeding your axes, or by borrowing an axe 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.080 to then breed it and then have your own by borrowing, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.440 you know, etcetera, if all of the monetary appeal just 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.120 sort of went away, is the game That's a very 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.240 common question that we see from people who maybe you know, 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.240 aren't as deep in the ecosystem as we are, and 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.400 that's that's me. So that's what I admit. I'm not deep, 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.080 So that's why I'm yeah, yeah, So I mean the 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.840 very simple counter argument to that is, well, what happens 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.800 if you remove all the bells and whistles for let's say, 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.920 all mobile games, like there is no battle paths, there 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.760 is no you know, nothing extra, nothing gamified that that 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:00.800 you know, attracts players it. So I think, you know, 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:04.360 you can't actually remove every aspect from actually because that's 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.200 not how it was designed. It was decide in the 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.200 way that all of the game characters are n f 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.320 T s that they should be able to generate tokens, 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.320 and that's a big part of, you know, the entire 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.920 appeal of the game. So of course, like it's the 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.000 same thing as saying, you know, if you remove the 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.680 ability to play, like play the magic game, would it 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.240 be fun to just collect magic cards? I think this 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.560 is a different way of looking at it, but kind 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.560 of answering the question more specifically, if people are enjoying 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.480 actually infinity right now, Yes, a lot of people are. 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.000 It's actually about when we see look at the motivation 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.920 for players. Right we have Twitter polls where we can 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.240 see that you know, less than of the entire player 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.960 base are only in it for the money, So where 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.720 we see that maybe thirty percent is in it for 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.400 the community, So that would be all the social aspect 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.160 around it. That would be they find friends, they learn 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.400 about new technology, and then they actually love the game 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.560 at its current state, which to us is of course amazing, 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.560 And what it tells us is that when people come 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.000 into the game, they might be, you know, extrinsically motivated. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.400 So let's say, hey, I can make you know r 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.160 o I, and I can make maybe are my r 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.840 o I back and let's say two months. Now, that's 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.000 an incredibly powerful driver of growth. So when we then 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.360 see that they come into the game, they fall in 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.720 love with, you know, the ecosystem, they fall in love 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.240 with everything that's around it, and then eventually some of 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.600 them collectors. And now this is where the kind of 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.600 intrinsic motivation part come in because when we see that players, 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.760 for example, in Acts Infinity, are spending over four thousand 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.040 dollars for an axe which has no way to gain 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.400 any money, that they can only buy it, they can 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.920 hold onto it, and then they can collect it. It's 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.760 actually more tied intrinsic motivation that they are they see 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:47.760 that what's happening in this community, that they want to 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:49.600 belong to it. They want to show off their status 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.960 because they're buying something that's exceedingly rare. And for us, 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.160 that's also kind of the direction that we want to 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.720 take actually in that you know, people find that this 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.960 is more real. Often times, these these digital assets which 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.640 are probably scares compared to when you look at something 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:06.879 like in real life in terms of luxury objects like 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.080 blue if its own bags or or let's say, rolux watchers, 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.200 because nobody knows how many of the them are in existence, 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:17.040 and the same actually goes for traditional digital assets in 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.840 normal games, like you have no idea how many of 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.040 these are in existence or if the game company just 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.600 they can simply dilute you. So I think that's you know, 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.200 one of the major differences. And also when we look 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:29.879 at you know, how much money is flowing into this 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.760 equal system and how many people are you know, interested 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.280 in the game itself, you know, the economy aspect of its. 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.760 Right now, over two point forty five billion dollars worth 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.480 of AXI n FT assets have been traded on our 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.080 n F t marketplace. So you know, simply saying that, hey, 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.520 you know, the game isn't fun, I think it's very unfair. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.199 And then also it doesn't it actually disrespects everything that 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.280 we are trying to build. And also the players in 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.600 our game who are spending you know, ten hours not 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.600 only on the game, like playing the game, but also 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.920 playing the marketplace, playing the social game. So I think 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.720 you know that these are it's very complex part of it. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.320 Then you guys touched on it also early on when 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.960 you look at the when you look at the ecosystem 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.480 in Magic the Gathering, right, they had Friday Night Magic, 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.760 they had all of these magic grand free tournaments. Like 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.600 people are collecting their starting up their own you know, 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.480 Magic the gathering shops. The same thing is happening in Axi. 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.200 You have people are making their own you know, scholarships 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.200 or teams or even businesses. Right. I've seen a contract 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:44.680 work contract between fayers, right, I think that's very unique. 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.840 So I do want to get into how you're sort 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.720 of managing the whole economy of Axe. But just one 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.119 more question on this point. I mean, one of the 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.760 criticisms is the high cost of entry and this idea 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.920 that maybe existing players are making money from the influx 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.880 of new players, So what would happen to the game 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.440 if you were to lower the entry costs? And I 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.800 think I read somewhere that you were planning or thinking 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.439 about doing like a free to play version of Taxi. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.119 So I'm just curious, like, what would happen to the 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.560 existing product if prices for entry got lowered? And then 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:28.200 also why the free to play idea if the financial 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.520 incentives are part of the equation of Axi as it 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.719 was originally conceived. Yeah, sure, so Act Infinity was always 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.280 actually designed to be calm, free to play, because that's 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.000 how you know, see that we connect into the get 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.240 the AXI product into as many hands as possible. Right, 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:46.120 we know that people just want to some of them 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:47.880 just might want to play the game, try it out 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.320 before they actually take the plunge and you know, buy 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.600 there for his game character. So what we can rather 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:54.960 do is we can get their ability to earn tokens 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.760 if they you know, if they if they play the 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.600 free type of game. And a big reason for why 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.960 we don't have it is we actually have to solve 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.400 a lot of different problems before you know, we were 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:07.960 ready to distribute or even try to distribute the game 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.600 on more traditional app stores. And that means that, let's say, 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.120 if we want to have as many millions of users 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.080 or even billions of users, that we're looking for the 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.240 underlying you know, infrastructure needs to be there, and the 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:21.679 same also goals for you know, how we are looking 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.119 at the distribution channel. So when we are distributing, actually, 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.440 let's say, if we want to distribute actually on the 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.479 iOS or the the Apple Store or Google Play, like, 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:32.679 there is currently no way for people to just simply 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:34.960 click and then buy and get there and if he 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.160 very easily right, so we needed to make our own 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.560 distribution channel for that. The goal is to distribute the 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:46.000 new game on Google Play or the Apple Store and 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.359 eventually kind of on board them from there to become 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.000 blockchain type of players where they can actually own their 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:56.000 digital assets and you know, by extension, there also their identity. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.919 Before we go on a little bit further, Tracy, you 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.720 both kind of mention and did. But it has gotten 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:05.000 incredible success in the Philippines where there are a lot 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.960 of people playing Axe, and as you mentioned, are these 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.000 so called scholarships because the price of the three n 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.400 f T s that one is required to buy has 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.359 gotten high, and so could you explain this sort of 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.560 like this sub phenomenon that's going on. What are the 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.280 show called scholarships and how is it enabling people who 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.400 might otherwise not have much cash to upfront to get 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.200 onto the game, to get into the game. Yes, so 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.720 the interesting thing about the scholarship is that it was 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.600 actually made by our players first. Like that feature, I mean, 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:36.600 we always had an idea that we wanted to make, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.280 you know, let players lend out their axes to other 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.439 players because we had such an early, you know, active 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.560 player base who were breeding accees before they were very expensive. 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.240 So some players might have several thousands of axes and 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.359 they wanted to use them, but not a lot of 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:55.159 people they couldn't afford these act characters. So that feature 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.600 was actually coming internally as well. But then the way 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.400 that our accounts accounts at up his work is that 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.200 it allows people to actually separate being of the assets 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.199 by the playing of the game. So that means that 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.440 if you own a team of access on your account, 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.320 you can actually let another player log into that play 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.480 the game, and then the rewards will go to the 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.600 main account, which then again can be split between the 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.640 player and the owner of the character. Players actually saw 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:25.800 that and they did it themselves, and then we just 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:27.679 decided to let them run with it. So, you know, 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.680 from the sky Navis perspective, we don't promote any of that, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.560 you know, lending of it yet because we haven't had 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:36.880 that feature internally, but you know, people are are still 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:38.760 spreading it, of course, and it's very interesting to see 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.960 how that has developed. Wait, so this actually reminds me 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.560 of one sort of technical thing that I wanted to 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.280 ask you. But you have rules that no one can 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.360 have more than one account at a time. Can can 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:55.480 you explain why those rules are in place? Yeah? Sure, 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.160 to sink. I think that's one of the most important 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.280 things of an ecosystem such as acts. So the way 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.320 that when we look at Acting Infinity, we think of 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.560 it as a network, and the way that a network 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.240 you know, grows is of course, you know, huge new 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:11.320 human beings. They come into the network and they tell 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:13.760 their friends and they might add value to it. And 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:17.080 that value could be let's say, create content or you know, 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:20.240 they might stream, they might even play the game. One 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.800 of these things. They add value to the to the game. 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.879 Side of action infinity and in return we can actually 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.720 give them some tokens, and that token, for example, is 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.720 tied into into the breeding aspect of the game. But 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:33.760 when you look at, for example, the person who is 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.359 playing several counts at the same time, or the worst cases, 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:39.800 they might be using robots like they're trying to book 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.800 the ecosystem, that again, it doesn't add any more value 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:47.720 to the network. So then if they are then experting 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.160 it by getting more tokens than they should, that's actually 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.160 a net loss for everyone else who is playing acting. 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:54.520 So that's where we have that have that rule into place. 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:56.480 So one of the most important things that one of 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.959 the most difficult things that are creating something like access 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.399 is that you know, proof of human being. How do 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:03.920 we make sure that they're actually humans on the other 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.880 side and they're not not robots trying to to exploit 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:08.919 this system. And a part about is the part of 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:11.040 our that that's possible is you know, actually the fact 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:13.040 that it's it's quite expensive to get started, so that 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:16.600 the stake that these abusers have in the game is 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.680 actually quite high. If they are abusing and we catch them, 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:21.880 you know, we we restrict their access to the game, 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.560 and so that costs about six dollars. That's also about 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.199 a pretty heavy deterrent to not breakthrough rules. So this 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.840 gets into like sort of a really interesting philosophical question 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.600 about block chains, because you know, you think back to 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:38.159 like the sort of like the core chains. There's nobody 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:40.520 at big coin. You know, there's nobody who in bitcoin 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:43.360 who even knows who you are. You can have infinite 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:46.760 number of wallets if you want, and different private keys 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.440 on different hardware wallets and so forth. The Ethereum chain 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:55.600 is roughly the same. But then as these new applications developed, 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:58.520 and I actually do want to get into how you 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:00.720 use Ethereum because you've also sort of built your own 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:05.000 side chain. I think that's interesting. But as new applications developed, 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:09.040 some of these sort of like core principle ideas that 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:16.919 we might associate with block chain anonymity, pseudo anonymity, no rules, trustlessness, etcetera. 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:19.840 Certain of those get sacrificed such that there is, in 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:23.640 your case, humans making rules, humans who could kick other 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:28.080 humans off. Some of the sort of trustlessness core basic 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:31.720 ideas of blockchain does not necessarily apply once it gets 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.720 down to the game application level. Well, for us this 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:39.760 is a very natural actually how the game evolved. So 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:42.439 if we look back into we came into the space 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:45.480 having very I would say we were naive, but also 0:25:45.640 --> 0:25:47.600 very hopeful in the way that you know, the the 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:50.920 the economy and like everything in the ecosystem in the book, 0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:54.440 chain ecosystem would evolve. So when we created actually pretty 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:57.280 much everything was on chain, and by that I mean 0:25:57.359 --> 0:25:59.800 you needed to send the transaction whenever you wanted to 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:02.800 bat and then again you know that combined into an 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:05.480 old chained result which anyone can prove, anyone can see, 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:10.280 and you know, we were following that decentralized details. Over time. 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:13.000 What we realized is that you know, building a product 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.439 based on these very constraints, like very heavy constraints, it's 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:18.600 almost impossible, especially if you want to reach you know, 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:20.800 the masses, if you want to teach them about this 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:23.560 new technology. So that basically means that we had to 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.080 take you know, we had to sacrifice parts the centralization, 0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:28.560 and the beginning was actually the game side. So right 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:31.080 now out of the game logic is off chain. So 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:33.680 that means that we already as a game studio, can 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:36.119 make many many changes, right we can also you know 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:38.760 let's say if we want to buff like certain skills 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:41.600 make them stronger weaker, we can do that, of course, 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:44.000 and we're very transparent about and I think you know, 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:45.960 that is one of the core you know, the core 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:48.760 things that we think is important when you're building using 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:52.399 this technology. So what are the most important things for 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:56.359 the players or for the end user in our experience, 0:26:56.760 --> 0:26:58.840 what the users won't right now is they want to 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:01.080 like have the build re need to freely trade the 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:03.760 assets that they have. They want to be able to 0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:05.960 monetize their time inside the game, and they want to 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:08.919 be able to see how many of these things are 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:11.280 in existence, right And I don't mean you know, the 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:14.280 level of trustlessness that you might have in bitcoin, for example, 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:17.040 because the values there are are very very heavy, so 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:20.760 you might need very very decentralized chain where you know, 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:24.080 nothing can be censored. All that stuff. On our side, 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:26.399 we we actually you know, disregard that and going on 0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:29.679 a little bit of a different direction, and that's you know, 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:31.760 a big part of why we managed to get to 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:35.640 where we are today. M Well, can we talk about 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:40.240 the blockchain then, so actually runs on ethereum and of course, 0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:43.040 like one of the big criticisms of Ethereum is always 0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:45.920 that it doesn't like work so well at a very 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:48.960 very large scale. So i'd be curious to get your 0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:54.080 impression of like working with Ethereum and like how you're 0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:59.280 sort of coping with that scaling problem as ACTI continues 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:01.919 to grow, because it, again, like acts is probably one 0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:05.760 of the fastest growing Ethereum related projects at the moment. 0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:09.600 So I imagine you have some experience with this. Yeah, 0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:13.160 so actually has for many many years been very very 0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:15.840 closely tied to the theorum. I mean, we deployed our 0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:18.639 first initial versions on the theory. Our n f T 0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:22.080 s are where even you know, deployed on the theory 0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:24.560 before the n f T standard was set. That was 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:28.639 like March, or if I recall April. So what we 0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:31.040 figured out is that if you are all of your 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:33.959 main assets on ethereum and you are dependent on you know, 0:28:34.000 --> 0:28:36.560 sharing the block space with everyone else who is using 0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:39.920 the ethereum blockchain, that's a very head like tall order 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:41.760 if you want to scale to to the level that 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.360 we wanted, or if you want let's say millions several 0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:49.760 millions of users. So over time, overwy we were exploring 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.440 different scaling options, and in the end we decided to 0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:56.280 build our own side chain to Ethereum. Now that is 0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:59.480 much more energy efficient. It is much is a free 0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:02.720 four player to actually make transactions, but it's going to 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:06.640 be very very cheap once we actually upgrade the chain 0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:09.880 a little bit. So it's an ongoing type of the situation. 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:12.520 We see that we need to be more effective, we 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:16.880 need our own infrastructure. So in I would say to 0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:19.920 explain this in a in a very you know, simple way, 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:23.000 is we believe that we are in the server era 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:25.760 of block chains. And when I say that, I mean 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:28.280 when we look at how the Internet scales early on, 0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:31.560 is that well, you couldn't really trust the clouds, or 0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:34.200 you couldn't trust to have your servers or your your 0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:36.959 homepage on another you know server. You needed to have 0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:39.400 that you know, backbone in the basement so that you 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:41.720 could actually make sure that your server or that your 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:44.719 homepage was always up. The same thing is actually happening 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:46.480 right now where we see that if we're going to 0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:48.840 go into we were going to trust Ethereum or you 0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:52.600 know that the very decentralized web, we would be competing 0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:56.440 for you know, space with every other application. So we 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.719 just decided to make ourselves make our own you know 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.760 server in the basement air, which is basically rollant for now, 0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:04.600 where we can control some of the parameters and make 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:07.240 sure that we're not sharing books space with too many 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:11.239 of other you know, successful applications. I want to get 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:13.040 into this a little bit more because I think it's 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:16.480 really important for people think about the evolution of blockchain 0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:20.520 in general. So it's called the ronan Ethereum side chain. 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:24.280 It's not completely disconnected from Ethereum, and there are other 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:28.120 side changes as well. There's the Binance chain, which has 0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:30.680 done very well, and that's also a side chain. I 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.840 think there's one called Madic, which is also a side chain. 0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:39.920 Explain how a side chain still works and relies on 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:44.360 to some extent the security and trustlessness of the core 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:50.080 Ethereum chain while offering sort of scalable and cheap transaction. Sure, 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.000 So when we look at you know, both Binance, the 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:56.480 smart chain, and Polygon or Mathic as we said, and 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:58.960 also rollant Um, what we see is that these chains 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.840 are built using the Theorem virtual machine, which is the 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:05.360 the code base that is running Ethereum. So that's deadly 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:07.640 where you start out and then you change certain things 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:10.360 in the in the configuration of it, and that might 0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:12.360 be you know four ethereum right, you're using proof of 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:14.720 work when it comes to mining, so you know, you're 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:17.880 dependent on all of these other machines that are helping 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:21.120 out to validate transactions, and then you're giving a reward, 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:23.880 which is you know, the mining reward for something like 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:27.480 Roland right, we are using right now, we are in 0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:30.080 a proof of authority type of situation where you know, 0:31:30.120 --> 0:31:32.520 people are not staking any of their tokens, but they're 0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:36.480 staking their reputation basically the different type of validators. So 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.479 that's one way of doing it. And eventually we're going 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:40.040 to be moving over to a proof of steak or 0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:43.400 delegated proof of steak where you need to have your 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:46.000 own tokens that you are then staking, which is then 0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.880 your well then you know, get slashed in case you 0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:51.600 are a malicious actor in the in the ecosystem. So 0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:53.320 let's say that you are just just to be clear, 0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:58.560 does your side chain interact with the main ethereum chain 0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:00.720 at all anymore or is it merely that it uses 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:03.600 the same E v M language. Yeah, So so there 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.320 are there's a there's a connection there. Whenever you want 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:08.480 to let's say, if you want to move your assets 0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:11.440 from Rollan to Ethereum, you can definitely do that, but 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:14.800 there is no level of security that's directly like we 0:32:14.840 --> 0:32:17.600 are not cannant on Ethereum to that extenter. But of course, 0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:21.000 like if Ethereum got compromised, you know, our chain would 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.320 also be very affected by that. But if our chain 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:25.920 got compromised, all the assets that are on rolland would 0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:28.280 then you know, be affected on Ethereum as well, because 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:30.520 there's a there's a bridge that is connecting the two. 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:33.720 So whenever you're depositing your assets to Roland, which I 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:35.520 think is there's about you know, two point five to 0:32:35.840 --> 0:32:38.880 three billion dollars worth of assets secured on Roland, will 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:41.080 you know that's the that's the risk for for everyone 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:45.840 who is postitting their assets there. So actually this reminds 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:48.080 me of something else I want to ask you, But um, 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:50.600 I think you recently announced that you're launching your own 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:54.080 decentralized exchange which is going to be built on Ronan. 0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:56.800 Can you walk us through like the thinking they're like, 0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.560 why do your own one and then why launch it 0:32:59.760 --> 0:33:04.280 on your own side chain versus something else. Sure, So 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:07.480 when we are looking at the products that we need, right, 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:11.760 so we're always thinking about it from from the player perspective. 0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:14.200 So what do the players in actual infinity actually want 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.800 and how and how do they want it? So let's 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:18.960 say when you're playing the game, you get your get 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:22.000 your SLP talkings, right, the next natural step it Okay, 0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:24.840 I'm not going to breathe or new Actually okay, well 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:26.120 if I can do that, then I can do that 0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:28.280 on Roland. But if you want to trade it into 0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:30.760 something else right now, you actually have to bridge that 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:34.400 to ethereum or move that to finance or some other exchange. 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:37.160 Right that is a very bad used for experience. Like 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.520 that's not really how it is in any other normal game. 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:42.640 So if you're comparing you to let's say World of Forcraft, 0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:45.760 when you are finding let's say gold there or any 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:48.280 other let's say, would you would be able to trade 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:51.640 that immediately on a marketplace. So that's it. That's that's it. 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:53.800 You know, it's just going to be an expanded marketplace 0:33:53.800 --> 0:33:56.880 which now suddenly has access to these fungible tokens like 0:33:57.360 --> 0:33:59.920 you know, SLP a excess and in the future maybe 0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:03.000 would inside access stone I think you've got guys understand 0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:05.840 my drift here. It's just about the underlying infrastructure is 0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:08.960 a decentralized exchange. So for normal people, like the only 0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:11.080 thing they would see is the marketplace. Are you going 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:15.640 to offer um like some form of defy on the 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:18.839 new exchange as well? So one of the interesting things 0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:21.800 about act now is that you can take the tokens 0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:25.000 that are in existence, like a access or SLP or whatever, 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:27.239 and do lots of de five things to them, like 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:30.040 staking or lending them out or whatever you want to do. 0:34:30.600 --> 0:34:33.879 Is that like also an activity that you would aim 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:38.840 to capture for your users, that that that touches on 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:40.759 some of the you know, the future that we see 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.279 for Sky maybe is an ACCI. So when we are 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.360 looking at our users right, what we see is that 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:49.520 of the user base, they have never used any sort 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:52.640 of crypto before. Of them have never even had a 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:55.680 bank account before. So these players, they're very new to 0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:58.600 the financial system. And if they can start playing a 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.480 game like ACXI where they actually end up owning their 0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:05.759 tokens and their assets and by extension digital identity, that 0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:07.719 means that eventually they might be able to do something 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:11.120 more with them. Because they have their wallet automatically created 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:13.759 when they set up a game account, and they will 0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:16.360 get money there too, and that means that you know, 0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:18.760 they can maybe even spend that in the real world eventually, 0:35:18.960 --> 0:35:20.759 and of course be able to lend on it. It 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:23.160 just depends on features we want to add to Roman, 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:24.799 and that's going to take a little bit of time 0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:27.279 to figure out, Like how effective will the chain be 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:29.640 as we are scaling, So let's say we might take 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:33.160 ten million users one million, how how many things can 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.960 actually be on chain before even we are struggling at 0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:38.560 this scare. But I'm super excited about the potential to 0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:41.600 you know, onboard millions of people who have never used 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:58.160 financial tools at all into the connected world. I should say, 0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:05.120 so I had another question, but I want to ask 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:08.960 this first because you have a problem that very few 0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:14.480 crypto applications have had to deal with, which is mass popularity. 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:16.960 So it'saying even if you do look at like the 0:36:17.000 --> 0:36:20.960 top applications that are built on top of Ethereum, like 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.720 unit swap whose founder we talked to, or the lending 0:36:24.719 --> 0:36:27.400 protocol of or some of these others, they may have 0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:30.080 a lot of money locked in them, but they don't 0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:33.400 exactly have like mass popularity by any stretch on the 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:36.319 scale that actually we're talking like millions of people. I'm 0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:39.319 pretty sure there's not like there are not many sort 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:42.120 of crypto apps that have like millions of people like 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:43.880 you have. So you have this problem and one of 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:46.640 the ways you solved it was creating the run in 0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:51.640 side chain. Do you ultimately see, like, let's say, you know, 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:55.400 just looking at the broad expanse of things that happened 0:36:55.480 --> 0:36:59.120 on crypto and various n f T projects, do you 0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:03.400 ultimately that as things get popular, that it'll look like 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:07.200 a you know, maybe some lending protocol becomes really huge, 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:10.760 and like why are we paying huge fees to eat whales? 0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:14.160 Why are we accepting such variable gas fees every time 0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:17.200 there's like a new token launch of some like derivative 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:19.919 of a puppy coin or something like that. And we'll 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:22.359 then make the decision that why don't we have our 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:26.760 own ethereum side chain where we can have stable prices, 0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:30.680 cheap prices, high scalable throughput, and not have to worry 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:33.920 about some new n f T drop that's going to 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.120 cause gas fees while we're trying to do like our 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:38.759 staking on unit swap that has nothing to do with it, Like, 0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:41.360 is this Do you see what you've done as a 0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:46.080 likely um part of the roadmap for other popular apps, 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:49.719 even if they don't see it yet. Yeah, I mean definitely. 0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:53.200 I think the great thing about about building on on 0:37:53.239 --> 0:37:55.200 the e v M is that you know, we can 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:57.760 top into the interior and ecosystem and we can basically 0:37:57.840 --> 0:37:59.879 fork off if we see that there there are things 0:37:59.880 --> 0:38:02.040 that we might find valuable. But at the same time, 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:05.520 it also adds value to ethereum, because any innovation that 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.600 happens on the Roland side chain will also benefit ethereum. 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:11.480 So I'm in gredually bullish on ethereum as you know, 0:38:11.560 --> 0:38:14.279 the center of or the the how can I call 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:17.520 it the the the settlement layer for the new Internet, 0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:19.839 And I think in as ethereum scales, that's just going 0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:22.239 to be more and more apparent um. So for me, 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:24.440 I think it actually benefits everyone. But but I'm not 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:27.080 sure like that all of the all of the transaction 0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:29.080 should be on the theorem right now as they are. 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:31.200 Of course, I'm an avid and a t collector. I love, 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:34.120 you know, trying to get some tokens, but you know, 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:36.719 when when when there's going on, but you know, it's 0:38:36.719 --> 0:38:38.799 a very heavy gas work, so it's pretty hard to 0:38:39.040 --> 0:38:41.239 even for me, even for me to justify it. Of course, 0:38:41.280 --> 0:38:43.479 as as a crypto person who's been in the space 0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:45.719 for years now, I think it's getting a little bit ridiculous, 0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:47.680 and of course it can't really be like that, so 0:38:48.400 --> 0:38:50.040 but I think, you know, it's it's just the start. 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:51.960 But I'm as I said, I am bullish on the 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:55.440 on the theoreum capturing a lot of values. So this 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:58.800 gets back to another question that I was wondering about it, 0:38:58.800 --> 0:39:00.600 and I guess it has to do with openness and 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:04.080 the degree of like, Okay, as you go down this 0:39:04.200 --> 0:39:06.600 sort of like I guess maybe as you go up 0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:11.560 the sort of application layers, you sacrifice certain elements of 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.799 sort of core blockchain trustlessness. Can could someone else on 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:18.479 the run in side chain build an actually game could 0:39:18.640 --> 0:39:20.879 if Tracy and I came up with the game, could 0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:24.280 we develop one that people could use their extra characters 0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.640 and plan that's the plan in the future, But for 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:30.120 now it's still a little bit earlier. So what we 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:32.319 need is to make sure that it first works for 0:39:32.400 --> 0:39:34.879 our use case. That's I mean, that's where we made 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.799 it right, it would be too early for us to 0:39:37.800 --> 0:39:40.560 to share the access with with with the world. First 0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:42.360 of all, like we don't have let's say, the the 0:39:42.440 --> 0:39:45.680 APIs aren't you know, solid enough to to ensure that 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:48.360 you know, not enough people are hammering them, so you know, 0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:52.720 that might mean that there would be you know, less stable, 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:55.359 that the service are less stable than they should be. 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:58.440 So we're actually waiting a little bit on that. So 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:00.360 we open it up. But in the future, you know, 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:03.280 not the only Acti Infinity games, but but also other games, 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:06.279 other games studios that that's what we plan to work 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:09.040 with because you know, if you're a game studio want 0:40:09.080 --> 0:40:12.640 to wanting to make something like Acti Infinity or another 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:15.640 type of game, and you see ACTE Okay, they're successful, 0:40:15.719 --> 0:40:17.560 they have a nice economy, and they even have the 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:21.359 scalable infrastructure of the distribution channels. Now why would they 0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:24.320 not work with us? So so that's exactly why we 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:26.799 kind of made this entire ecosystem. So we needed to 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:30.400 solve our problems first, and that means that we probably 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:32.799 understand them anyone else in the world, and we can 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:34.840 also solve them for other games studios in the future 0:40:35.239 --> 0:40:38.600 as well, so why don't we talk a little bit 0:40:38.640 --> 0:40:41.680 more about the sort of in game economy, because one 0:40:41.680 --> 0:40:43.839 of the interesting things in all of us, as we 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:46.320 mentioned in the intro, was not only are you making 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:49.880 all these technical decisions about, you know, how to manage 0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:53.360 the blockchain, whether or not to launch a decentralized platform 0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:56.879 that sort of thing, or a decentralized exchange, but you're 0:40:56.920 --> 0:41:01.239 also managing that ecosystem. You're managing an actual economy, so 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.200 you're sort of like acting like a central bank. So 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:06.839 could you maybe give us an instance of for an 0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:10.600 example of the kind of problems that you will encounter 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:14.279 in managing the axis system? So I imagine there is 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:18.440 volatility in um some of the axes that actual n 0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:20.640 f T S and then you mentioned, of course the 0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:25.080 currencies or the tokens access and s LP they've been 0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:27.800 going up quite a lot recently. What kind of challenges 0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:31.080 does that pose and and how what's your vision for 0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:34.040 how this economy should ultimately be working and heading to 0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:37.080 sure trace? Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.239 the one of the real interesting things here that you 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.799 not only are we doing very heavy technological innovation, but 0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:48.120 there's also business model innovation here um econom make innovation 0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:49.480 in terms of you know, how do we see the 0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:52.320 world working in the future. So we see action Comminuity 0:41:52.360 --> 0:41:55.719 as a digital nation. And of course we are functioning 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:58.600 as the states in a sense that we are tax 0:41:58.920 --> 0:42:01.560 system a smaller amount rather than us you know, from 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.560 a marketplace feed perspective, right, whenever a person is trading 0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:08.520 on our marketplace, we take a four fee, and that 0:42:08.840 --> 0:42:11.680 you know, enables a lot of economic activity between players 0:42:12.239 --> 0:42:14.600 because it becomes a little bit like let's say the US, 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:17.120 whenever people are doing commerce against each other. You know, 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:19.719 the state might take a small tax on that. But 0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:24.960 in traditional games, the state would you know, take of 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:28.680 of of every economic activity that's happening, like that's their goal. 0:42:29.080 --> 0:42:31.399 So if we were a traditional game, we would take 0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:35.239 all of the money. But that's kind of one part 0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:37.120 of a lookout, you know. The one of the more 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:40.440 challenging things is actually balancing out the or you know, 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:43.200 making sure that the sp price is not too reflective. 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:45.680 When new people call into the game, they might have 0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:47.960 you know, oh, super high expectations SUP is going to 0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:51.279 stay at forty cents forever, when in reality, three months 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:53.600 before that it was at you know, two cents, so 0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:56.560 that is a problem from that, you know, level of 0:42:56.600 --> 0:42:59.560 expectation that these players have. So we are trying to, 0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:02.360 you know, make sure that the price is somewhat stable, 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:04.279 and there are different ways that we can do that. 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:06.880 So when we see acts, as I mentioned, we we 0:43:06.960 --> 0:43:09.919 function as the state, and that when we are balancing out, 0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:13.480 Let's say how much SLP is required per breed of Actually, 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:16.239 we might reduce that or we might increase that. And 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:18.840 then there's another portion of the breeding fee which is 0:43:19.000 --> 0:43:21.719 required to pay like as a developer fee, which is 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:24.160 also a part of how we make money, So we 0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:26.840 might increase that or decrease that so that you know, 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:30.160 it balances out a little bit more. You know, I 0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:33.200 was thinking about you know, Tracy started the discussion talking 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:36.640 about Magic the Gathering, and I admit I really should 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:39.480 learn more about the game and its history. But my 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:44.600 impression is the company Wizards of the Coast has taken 0:43:44.719 --> 0:43:49.400 its responsibility as the steward of the magic economy very seriously. 0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:53.360 They've never like flood the market with lots of different 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:56.360 cards because they might be expensive at any at any point. 0:43:56.400 --> 0:43:58.759 It's sort of like made these decisions and try to 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:01.080 get things out of way? Can you can it all 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:04.640 be done? Is you say eventually algorithmically such that no 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:06.920 one needs to trust you? Or do you always think 0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:10.840 there's going to be like some entity that like feels 0:44:10.840 --> 0:44:16.440 a sense of responsibility towards towards the game, towards the ecosystem. Actually, 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:18.879 let's begin with Magic to Gathering. So I still follow 0:44:18.920 --> 0:44:23.320 that scene lately, like I mean, Wizards of the Coast 0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:25.799 are you know, now trying to extract as much money 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:28.719 as they count from the player base. So they so 0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:31.680 they are dumping out all of these different we got 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:35.920 we gotta do Wizards of the Coast episode, it's like, yeah, alright, 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:38.359 we gotta yeah, definitely asked them like how much money 0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:40.839 are they earn? Because it must be insane. But in 0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:43.080 any case, the way that we see it is that 0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:46.520 you know, Act Infinity is should be governed by the 0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:49.920 a excess token holders, but sky Navis, which is you know, 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:52.680 the company that that we have, needs to be very 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:55.360 deeply involved with setting the direction and especially as we 0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:58.719 move towards the centralization, because you know, if a if 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:00.800 a game or any kind of the call is supposed 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:03.680 to be governed by you know, the token holders. That's 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:06.960 kind of a role to decentralization. But we need to 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:09.200 be progressive in that sense. We need we need to move, 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:11.319 we need to walk before we can run. So by 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:13.000 saying that I need to we actually need to make 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:15.239 sure that it's stable first. So that would be one 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.959 of like the foundational things that we need to ship. 0:45:18.239 --> 0:45:19.960 How long will that take? I guess we'll see. We 0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:22.239 don't know because it has never been created before, so 0:45:22.320 --> 0:45:24.279 we might take five years, it might take ten years. 0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:25.959 I think, you know, we have to be honest about 0:45:25.960 --> 0:45:28.200 these things that you know, sure, we're making something brand 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:30.280 new here. There are some problems, but there are massive 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:32.279 opportunities here as well. And I think the whole world 0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:35.520 will be watching exactly what's happening in actually Infinity because 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:38.399 maybe not only can we you know, improve the game 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:40.399 side of it, but maybe also improve you know, how 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:43.879 the world works. So I'm incredibly excited about the future here. 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:47.960 Not to be labor the Wizards of the Coast analogy, 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:50.319 but I mean one of the things that they did 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:53.480 do in order to sort of rebalance out the magic 0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:56.719 the gathering experience or ecosystem, was they set up what 0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:59.919 was it called the pro League right when, like when 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:02.440 there were so many powerful cards that were out in 0:46:02.480 --> 0:46:05.960 the game, like wasn't becoming that much fun to play 0:46:06.000 --> 0:46:09.120 because if someone you know had a Black Lotus or whatever, 0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:11.000 they could just like without a bunch of those and 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:12.799 win the game really easily. Is no one wanted to 0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:16.520 play anymore. They created a pro league that had different rules, 0:46:16.719 --> 0:46:19.279 and the whole idea was to actually make the game 0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:22.880 fun and interesting again. And my understanding is that Axie 0:46:23.040 --> 0:46:27.160 does have some people who sort of livestream gaming on 0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:31.080 Twitch or Discord or whatever. But like, is that something 0:46:31.600 --> 0:46:35.239 that that you could see, like you guys really pushing for, 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.120 like this idea of sort of like a professional league 0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:43.000 or maybe like more creative solutions to solving imbalances that 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:47.520 may emerge in the Axi economy. Yeah. I mean, so 0:46:47.840 --> 0:46:51.200 my background is, you know, as a game person, I 0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:52.880 loved I was even trying to get into the pro 0:46:53.000 --> 0:46:55.160 tore at one point in Magically Gathering. But I have 0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:58.839 played competitive you know, both Worldcraft three Data and Dodata two. 0:46:58.960 --> 0:47:01.680 So I mean I'm always pushing for that side of 0:47:01.800 --> 0:47:03.719 you know, the acts infinity, And I think you see 0:47:03.719 --> 0:47:06.560 Actuffinity working, is that you know, the people who have 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:10.000 the best access, they can't always win all of the time. 0:47:10.160 --> 0:47:12.560 There has to be skilled involved as well, and that's 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:14.839 you know, the next the game aspect of it. That's 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:16.560 also why we are you know, doubling down on the 0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:18.640 East Ports and various areas of the world so we 0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:21.920 might and we even have you know, a seasonable season 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:24.680 inside the game itself, so if you're ranking among the 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:28.000 top thousand players, you actually get a higher reward. So 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:30.359 we want to reward good players, and I think that's 0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:38.000 a part of what gives certain aspects of access value. Alex. 0:47:38.160 --> 0:47:40.320 It was great to have you on and hear about 0:47:40.360 --> 0:47:44.040 like how AXI is working currently and all the things 0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:46.040 that you have planned for it. I mean, I think 0:47:46.160 --> 0:47:49.440 this is definitely one of the more for most ambitious 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:52.120 projects that I've heard in the crypto space. So really 0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:55.400 interesting to hear from you. Thank you so much. Yeah, 0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:57.640 thanks crazy, thanks, Joe, I mean, happy to be here. 0:47:57.680 --> 0:48:01.200 I think, incredibly exciting to side of days that had Yeah, 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:14.800 that was great, Thank you so much so, Joe. Um. 0:48:14.840 --> 0:48:18.760 I thought that conversation was like very very fascinating, mostly 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:22.480 for the point that you kind of made about how 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:25.520 this is one of the few blockchain projects that is 0:48:25.560 --> 0:48:29.760 actually like scaling at an enormous rate and actually having 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:32.000 a lot of people who aren't playing it. Yeah, there's 0:48:32.040 --> 0:48:34.440 a lot of crypto stuff that has a ton of money, 0:48:35.239 --> 0:48:38.040 Like there's a ton of like money, but there are 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:40.000 not a lot of crypto things that have a ton 0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:43.799 of people and or apps. And I think, like if 0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:45.840 you actually looked at like the daily number of people 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:50.560 like say using unit swap wildly successful defied platform, I 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:53.120 don't think there's like still like bad many is certainly 0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:55.719 not dealing with millions of people by any stretch. So 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:57.680 it also gets back to a point that I think 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:00.400 we've discussed in some of our DeFi episode, which is 0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:06.399 about the educational process in all of this. So like, I, 0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:09.279 you know, it's tricky enough for me to open a 0:49:09.280 --> 0:49:12.080 meta mask account from like Hong Kong using a Hong 0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:15.280 Kong credit card, um, but then like trying to figure 0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:19.520 out how to state coins or do actual defy things 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:23.480 like it just seems incredibly complex to me. But if 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:27.080 you start having these games where everything is sort of 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.360 built in, and that's why I think the decentralized exchange 0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:33.480 is quite interesting, and you start sort of teaching I 0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:37.200 mean literally millions of people about crypto and blockchain and 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:40.600 n f t s and defy like that is very 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:44.400 interesting to me. It actually kind of blows my mind 0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:47.680 the hoops that people have to jump through, and then 0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:51.640 they do jump through them, like you know, I like 0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:54.200 to me, you know, I like like like we've only said, 0:49:54.200 --> 0:49:56.360 like you know, you set up a metal mask account, etcetera. 0:49:56.360 --> 0:50:00.879 It's pretty complicated. Buying coins is complicated staking and then 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:03.120 it's like you know, and it's just like on like 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:05.239 the big block chain, so that's just like ethereum. And 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:07.279 then you're like, oh, now I'm gonna like bridge my 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:11.600 uh tokens over to madic or the Binance chain or 0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:13.279 something like that. But like people are doing it and 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:16.719 figuring it out, and then it's like okay, sky mave 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:19.960 is or actually I have to buy three axes and 0:50:20.040 --> 0:50:25.359 I need some SLP because that's what's necessary. And yeah, 0:50:25.360 --> 0:50:27.719 it's like yeah, yeah, I saw a thing once. It's 0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:30.520 like a nine step process, and yet to have that 0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:34.040 nine step process and they have that success, you know, 0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:36.719 it's still I guess to this fundamental question though, that's 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:40.000 like almost impossible to answer. It's like is it really 0:50:40.080 --> 0:50:42.440 fun or is this like, yeah, I'm going to do 0:50:42.520 --> 0:50:44.400 nine steps because I can make more money in a 0:50:44.480 --> 0:50:47.480 day than I can working minimum wage and the Philippines 0:50:47.520 --> 0:50:50.440 which is where they're very popular, so that's still like 0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:53.840 kind of this unanswered thing. But then on the flip side, 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:56.040 it's like this has been the criticism of crypto from 0:50:56.120 --> 0:50:57.799 day one. It's like, well, aren't you just in this 0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:01.760 for the speculation And it's like seems like the answer 0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:03.799 to a lot of these things. Yes, but crypto keeps growing. 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:06.160 I don't know, it's very like it's chicken and Eggie. 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:10.000 So here's what I think is changing, Like this idea 0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:15.400 that crypto is a viable alternative to normal jobs or 0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:18.640 traditional jobs, or the idea that like crypto is a 0:51:18.760 --> 0:51:21.719 viable way of making money. And you weren't here for 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:24.719 this episode, but Joseph Wang about a week or two 0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:29.320 ago was talking about this idea that like maybe one 0:51:29.560 --> 0:51:34.440 of the factors in persistent like shortages of labor supply 0:51:34.600 --> 0:51:37.640 in the US might be because people are sat there 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:40.480 saying loads of people making money off of bitcoin or 0:51:40.520 --> 0:51:42.880 whatever or game stock, stock or whatever, and so that 0:51:43.000 --> 0:51:45.759 kind of becomes a viable alternative. I think that is 0:51:45.880 --> 0:51:48.200 what's changing. Like if you would have told people ten 0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:51.200 or twenty years ago, uh, you don't have to work 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:53.560 your day job. You can just sit and play like 0:51:53.960 --> 0:51:57.960 this Axi Infinity game and make a living wage, I 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:01.359 think like no one would have be yeah, yeah, but 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:05.120 and that's true. But to push back and to your 0:52:05.160 --> 0:52:07.879 point that you brought up, it's like, how much of 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:11.520 these jobs are only viable because their premised on the 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:15.359 existence of new people coming into the space. So it's 0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:18.080 like you could make a living selling paint. It's not 0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:20.080 premised on the existence of more people are entering the 0:52:20.160 --> 0:52:22.680 paint industry. It's premised on the existence of people wanting 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:25.920 to paint their own right. Like, at some point, I 0:52:25.960 --> 0:52:29.320 think that's a very valid criticism. At some point, crypto 0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:31.480 maybe be the kind of thing where it's like, okay, 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.239 it's providing financial services that people have ven used in 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:37.160 the real economy in some meaning, and that could be 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:39.640 a metaverse. So when I say real economy, I don't 0:52:39.640 --> 0:52:42.279 necessarily mean a physical economy, but I do wonder, like 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:46.400 how much of crypto profits are still simply premised on 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:51.160 the idea of more people getting into crypto totally. And again, 0:52:51.239 --> 0:52:53.880 like I think ACXI is sort of like a great 0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:58.000 example of all these big themes and questions all in 0:52:58.200 --> 0:53:01.239 like one concentrated games. So it's going to be really 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:04.840 interesting to see what happens as they continue to grow. Um, 0:53:04.880 --> 0:53:07.080 you know, they were talking about getting to billions of people, 0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:09.360 and it's even alex said, like, at some point, okay, 0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:12.319 it's like when we hit our two billion tam or 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:14.600 when we then we we really got to make sure 0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:18.560 the game is like super fun to play. Yeah, exactly. Um, okay, 0:53:18.800 --> 0:53:21.080 well should we leave it there. Yeah, there's so much 0:53:21.120 --> 0:53:23.080 more to talk about that there. As you say, there's 0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:25.120 like no stopping point with any of this, but yeah, 0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:27.920 let's leave it there. All right. Um. This has been 0:53:28.000 --> 0:53:31.000 another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.840 You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Halloway. And 0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:36.839 I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:39.760 the Stalwart. And you should follow our guest on Twitter, 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:43.319 Alexander Leonard Larson. He's the co founder and CEO of 0:53:43.480 --> 0:53:47.080 sky Mavis, the company behind Actually Infinity. His handle is 0:53:47.200 --> 0:53:51.600 at psych out six. Follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's 0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:55.000 at Laura M. Carlson, Follow the Bloomberg Head of podcast 0:53:55.040 --> 0:53:58.840 Francesca Levi at Francesco Today, and check out all of 0:53:58.880 --> 0:54:02.719 our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks 0:54:02.719 --> 0:54:03.160 for listening.