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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wi Joe. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we may have had this conversation before, but, um,

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Speaker 1: did you ever play Magic the Gathering growing up? No?

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Speaker 1: I never did, And I kind of think it's weird

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Speaker 1: because maybe I'm like the type of person who would

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Speaker 1: have you were right. You did, right, Yeah I did.

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Speaker 1: But so I can see you sort of being interested

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Speaker 1: in it from a like Poker slash Mats perspective, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I should have been. I should have been. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was more into it from a collecting perspective. I mean

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Speaker 1: I did play, but for me, like, I just liked

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Speaker 1: collecting all the cards. But the reason I bring it

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Speaker 1: up is because one of the interesting things about Magic

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Speaker 1: the Gathering was there was this whole ecosystem built around

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Speaker 1: this card collecting card playing game, and the company that

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Speaker 1: ran it was called Wizards of the Coast, and every

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Speaker 1: once in a while they would encounter major problems where

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Speaker 1: you know, the price of cards would suddenly get out

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Speaker 1: of whack, or the game wasn't as much fun to

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Speaker 1: play because they've released a bunch of cards that had

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Speaker 1: like special powers and things like that, and then they

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Speaker 1: had to figure out ways to fix the entire system

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Speaker 1: um and it was really interesting to sort of see

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Speaker 1: them do it and managed to. I guess they sort

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Speaker 1: of managed to avoid the fate that has overtaken so

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Speaker 1: many fads over the years, like think about beanie babies, right,

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Speaker 1: those are the classic example. But like magic, the gathering

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Speaker 1: has been going for years and they managed to keep

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Speaker 1: the system going totally and people are still really into

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Speaker 1: it and somehow, you know, even in people are still

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Speaker 1: playing it, And I think you make you make a

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Speaker 1: really good point, which is that they've kept successful despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that there is clearly a lot of speculation

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Speaker 1: in car like one could imagine a scenario in which

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Speaker 1: people are just in the cards for like the monetary aspect,

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Speaker 1: and then the gameplay sort of falls off because maybe

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Speaker 1: they get too expensive or whatever. But somehow they seem

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Speaker 1: to have strunk fine balance where yes, people pay a

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Speaker 1: lot for cards, and in fact, I think like recently

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Speaker 1: they're like some record cards even like just in the

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Speaker 1: last like several weeks or months, but the game itself

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Speaker 1: is still played enthusiastically by a lot of people. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: that's a really good way of putting it. So, um,

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Speaker 1: the reason I bring it up is not because we

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Speaker 1: were going to be talking about Magic the Gathering specifically

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Speaker 1: we should at some point, Yeah, I was gonna say

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Speaker 1: I would love to do that episode, but because we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about a sort of brand new game

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Speaker 1: that gives me a lot of flashbacks to Magic. But

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Speaker 1: it's very much a new game in the sense that

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Speaker 1: it is it sort of brings together everything in the

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Speaker 1: world of crypto, like cryptocurrencies and f t s, non

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Speaker 1: fungible tokens, blockchain. It brings them altogether in the metaverse. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: exactly into one ecosystem and it's just exploded in popularity

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Speaker 1: in not recent years, right, And you know, I'll let

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Speaker 1: you do the proper intro. But one thing, just going

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Speaker 1: back to Magic real quickly before we move on. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things with Magic is like

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Speaker 1: you own your cards, right, you own your debt, and

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Speaker 1: with typical games online, you don't. You know, you think

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Speaker 1: about something, I don't know a game that people play,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to sound boomers, so I

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Speaker 1: like World of Warcraft. I don't know if anyone still

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Speaker 1: plays it. Whatever, it's like you don't really own your

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Speaker 1: character in the traditional sense, like you log into your character,

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Speaker 1: but it's not yours. And so with this idea of

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Speaker 1: like crypto gaming and really it's crypto in general, and

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Speaker 1: and of teas in general, et cetera, is this bridging

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Speaker 1: of the notion of ownership that this is a thing,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a character, whether it's token or whatever, it's

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Speaker 1: yours and you and move it from one environment to

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Speaker 1: the next. And so kind of like magic, you own

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Speaker 1: your card. In this world of crypto gaming, there's this

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Speaker 1: sense of ownership that hasn't existed in online or video

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Speaker 1: gaming previously, right, And of course you can make money

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Speaker 1: from that ownership as well. So if you earn, you know,

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Speaker 1: cryptocurrency in this gaming system, you can take it to

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Speaker 1: a crypto exchange and convert it into something else. So

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe we should just get on with it, because

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Speaker 1: we do have tons to talk about. We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about Axie Infinity. Um, you might have heard of

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Speaker 1: it already. We have Alexander Leonard. He's the CEO and

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Speaker 1: co founder of Skymavis and axiuh and he's been kind

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Speaker 1: enough to come on the show. So Alex, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: a thought. Thanks. Basically, I'm I'm excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: I love the intro, by the way, as as a

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Speaker 1: Magic the Gathering player for over twenty years myself, definitely

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Speaker 1: to what's happening here. I definitely love that equalsystem and

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Speaker 1: how it evolves so well. So maybe just as an

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Speaker 1: intro you can kind of describe axe Um for anyone

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Speaker 1: who isn't familiar with it. I mean, we sort of

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Speaker 1: touched on it, but it is kind of unique in

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Speaker 1: the sense that it brings together all these different aspects

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Speaker 1: of the crypto world, but it also brings together some

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Speaker 1: things we've seen before. But you know, social networks and

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Speaker 1: this idea of like creating an ecosystem that very much

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Speaker 1: looks like a kind of contained economy. Yeah, sure that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there is so much to unpack here. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of what you guys mentioned, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the buzzwords are what drives attention to to the product.

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Speaker 1: But at a very high level, what we're making here

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Speaker 1: is is just a fun game using your ax digital

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Speaker 1: pet characters that then can be used in many, many

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Speaker 1: different games. Now, some of those games are the ones

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Speaker 1: that we as a team create so the one that's

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Speaker 1: most popular right now, it's it's the Battle game, where

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Speaker 1: you have your team of three Axi game characters and

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Speaker 1: you play against other players who also have a team

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Speaker 1: of of act game characters. And then there are many

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Speaker 1: other kind of sub games or different things that you

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Speaker 1: can use them for, such as Breeding of Actions, which

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Speaker 1: is another game. And then more games are coming such

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Speaker 1: as in All the Land or Kingdom based game, which

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Speaker 1: is more on that metadverse side. What we see is

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Speaker 1: that or the way that we've structured is that all

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Speaker 1: these games are connected. So the main characters that you have,

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Speaker 1: they travel across all of these different games, and that

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Speaker 1: again gives them more value, higher collectibility, and also more utility.

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Speaker 1: And it's been you know, almost four years since we

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Speaker 1: started now, so it's it's interesting to see that the

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Speaker 1: world has kind of caught up to our vision. And

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Speaker 1: now of course we're probably a product cycle ahead of

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Speaker 1: pretty much all of our competitors, so very unique, and

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Speaker 1: that's also why we have all of these players who

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Speaker 1: are coming in, you know, right now, over two million

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Speaker 1: daily active players, even though they can't they can't get

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Speaker 1: the application on any app stores like they have two sideloaded,

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Speaker 1: they have to go get there. Well, that's biocrypto stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's very high, a very high barrier to entry still,

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Speaker 1: but what we see is that the benefit that we're

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Speaker 1: enabling for these users in terms of true ownership and

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Speaker 1: in terms of you know what they can actually use

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Speaker 1: the game characters for, it's so unique that it has

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Speaker 1: never really existed in the same way before, because we're

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Speaker 1: combining all of the facets of new technology with some

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Speaker 1: you know, a nice game design from the past, and

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Speaker 1: then again making a quite a large ecosystem. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the economics. There's seem

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Speaker 1: there's multiple assets, right, so the axes that one owns,

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Speaker 1: the three characters that you buy for battles, etcetera. Those

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Speaker 1: I guess are like n f T s and I

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Speaker 1: think people like by potion and that adds its own token.

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Speaker 1: Why do you talk to us a little bit about this?

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Speaker 1: And it's all going up like crazy, like I think

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Speaker 1: this year, like if you were if you were playing

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Speaker 1: actually last year, everything's up like two hundredfold or some

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Speaker 1: incredible amount due to the rush of in game But

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Speaker 1: why do you talk to us a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the sort of like the ownable assets that exist

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Speaker 1: in game and how they interact. Sure, I mean, so

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Speaker 1: when we look at when we look at as the

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Speaker 1: first step that you know, people see as the Axecute

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Speaker 1: game character. Each of those characters are unique, so they

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Speaker 1: are defined as n f T s and they can

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Speaker 1: be used across different games, and you need three to

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Speaker 1: play the game, as I said, And when you're playing

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Speaker 1: the game, you can earn another token or win a

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Speaker 1: token which is called the Smooth Love Portion or SLP,

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Speaker 1: and that SLP token is then required to play the

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Speaker 1: other game, which is the Breeding game, and it gives

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Speaker 1: that value so to say that when whenever you want

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Speaker 1: to create a new Axi, you need to have this

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Speaker 1: SLP token. If you don't have it, then all new

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Speaker 1: Axes can ever be created. So each actially that's in

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Speaker 1: existence right now is actually the result of some other

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Speaker 1: human being that has played the Axi game generated the

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Speaker 1: SLP token and then used that to create a new

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Speaker 1: Axe through breathing. So that's how that part of the

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Speaker 1: economy works. And then we've also got the a excess token,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of the governance token for for the

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Speaker 1: Action Infinity game universe and that's you know, highly limited,

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Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy million of those in existence, and

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Speaker 1: it started out at a price of ten cents last

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Speaker 1: year and now it's it's over one per token. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, the the appreciation it has has been quite heavy,

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Speaker 1: and that's because it's kind of tied to to some

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Speaker 1: of the revenue streams that are that are going into

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Speaker 1: the ACTI Infinity game. Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the revenue streams, because you know, this is like

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Speaker 1: both one of the strengths and I guess the criticisms

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Speaker 1: of the entire thing. So one of the reasons actually

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Speaker 1: is getting a lot of attention is because people are

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Speaker 1: making quite a bit of money from playing the game.

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Speaker 1: And this is how I first came across it. My

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg colleague Christine Servando. She wrote a really great piece

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Speaker 1: about how lots of people in the Philippines are basically

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Speaker 1: quitting their jobs and just playing ax You full time

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Speaker 1: and making enough money to live on. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, there's been some criticism of the business model

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Speaker 1: from people who say, well, this is just sort of unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: There's this really high entry cost, you know, people have

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Speaker 1: to pay. Well, you can maybe update me on this,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's like a minimum of six eight

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars in order to get the axes that you

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Speaker 1: need in order to start playing. And so it feels

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Speaker 1: like you're sort of making money from the stream of

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Speaker 1: new players who are coming into this. So maybe you

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Speaker 1: can just break down where the revenues are actually coming

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Speaker 1: from for us. Yeah. Sure, So when you look at

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Speaker 1: how the SLP token, you know it's coming into existence,

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Speaker 1: that's related to whenever people are playing the game, and

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Speaker 1: that's well, the farming of of SLP when you were

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Speaker 1: when you were a player, you can farm you know,

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Speaker 1: small love potions or smooth love potions for between twelve

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Speaker 1: to fifteen dollars per day. That's the that's the current value,

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Speaker 1: and that has been fluctuating quite heavily over the pastor

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Speaker 1: and I would say three to four months. So at

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Speaker 1: one point maybe a player could earn even thirty to

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Speaker 1: forty dollars per day, and that was of course very

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Speaker 1: attractive for a lot of people. Now it's more normalized

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Speaker 1: to what it was before, you know, a massive run

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Speaker 1: up in users. When we are thinking about the long

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Speaker 1: term sustainability of acting, where we consider ourselves right now

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Speaker 1: is that Okay, we have two million daily active players.

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Speaker 1: All of those players they will need they need three

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Speaker 1: access right, so that's at least six million axes that

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Speaker 1: are required for for those two million players, and in existence,

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Speaker 1: we have about eight million axes or a little bit

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Speaker 1: less than that, that have been bread so far. And

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Speaker 1: if we then look at, you know, what is the

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Speaker 1: total addressable market for something like ACTI, Well, the way

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Speaker 1: we've defined it is that we don't we actually don't

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Speaker 1: compete against traditional games in the same way we might

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Speaker 1: actually compete against work against those players, those people in

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Speaker 1: the world who are unemployed or who are earning you know,

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Speaker 1: less than let's say fifteen dollars per day, so that

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Speaker 1: might be and I mean, the game is fun, it's enjoyable,

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Speaker 1: we have a large community, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: we can tap into a brand new user base has

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Speaker 1: never even you know, considered a game in the same

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Speaker 1: way like a job in the metaverse, so that you know,

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Speaker 1: for us, leads those to believe that maybe we can

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Speaker 1: reach even one billion or two billion people. And that

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Speaker 1: means that there's still a lot of acxes that need

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Speaker 1: to be produced for the foreseeable future. It's totally fine

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Speaker 1: that SLP is being waited so that other players can

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Speaker 1: breed for that and so which then again is the

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Speaker 1: criticism that people will come with. But for us, that's

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Speaker 1: that's totally fine because we need these acts in existence. Now,

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Speaker 1: the question cons what happens when when we reach the

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Speaker 1: total addressable market, when we have you know, let's say

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Speaker 1: one billion or two billion players. Well, that's exactly when

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Speaker 1: Acts Infinity has to kind of evolve a little bit

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Speaker 1: from being displaced where there's a gold rusher of people

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Speaker 1: who want to breed access into more of a network

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Speaker 1: I would say social network where people are actually hanging

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Speaker 1: around in the game, they're having fun, they're going on

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Speaker 1: different adventures, they're playing many, many different games that we

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Speaker 1: and also the community can create. So I think that

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Speaker 1: is already a very proven model in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: let's say roadblocks for example, how many players do they

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Speaker 1: have and nobody is you know, earning anything. So I

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Speaker 1: think everything is about getting that early user base involved

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Speaker 1: into your game so that they can fall in love

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Speaker 1: with the game, falling over the art, and you know,

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Speaker 1: stay inside this ecosystem, and then eventually we can evolve

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Speaker 1: from there. But I think actually the Roadblocks comparison is

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Speaker 1: interesting because you said the operative thing, which is that

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Speaker 1: people love playing Roadblocks despite the fact that there's, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no money involved. Maybe some people are

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Speaker 1: making money, but by and large that is not the motivation.

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Speaker 1: And throughout years, people have loved all kinds of games

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Speaker 1: that don't involve money. People love chess or people like,

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Speaker 1: you know, first person shooter games. Maybe there are some

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Speaker 1: tournaments or whatever you can win money, but money is

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Speaker 1: not essential to the enjoyability of those games. And so

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Speaker 1: I think, like, still, what maybe bothers people about Axe

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Speaker 1: or what is like, is the game fun now? Do

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Speaker 1: people have fun now playing the game or is it

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Speaker 1: this sort of like digital trudgery where it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: yes you can make money. But if there was no

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Speaker 1: money by clicking over and over, or by earning this potion,

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Speaker 1: or by breeding your axes, or by borrowing an axe

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Speaker 1: to then breed it and then have your own by borrowing,

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Speaker 1: you know, etcetera, if all of the monetary appeal just

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Speaker 1: sort of went away, is the game That's a very

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Speaker 1: common question that we see from people who maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: aren't as deep in the ecosystem as we are, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's me. So that's what I admit. I'm not deep,

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Speaker 1: So that's why I'm yeah, yeah, So I mean the

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Speaker 1: very simple counter argument to that is, well, what happens

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Speaker 1: if you remove all the bells and whistles for let's say,

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Speaker 1: all mobile games, like there is no battle paths, there

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Speaker 1: is no you know, nothing extra, nothing gamified that that

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Speaker 1: you know, attracts players it. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't actually remove every aspect from actually because that's

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Speaker 1: not how it was designed. It was decide in the

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Speaker 1: way that all of the game characters are n f

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Speaker 1: T s that they should be able to generate tokens,

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Speaker 1: and that's a big part of, you know, the entire

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Speaker 1: appeal of the game. So of course, like it's the

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Speaker 1: same thing as saying, you know, if you remove the

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Speaker 1: ability to play, like play the magic game, would it

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Speaker 1: be fun to just collect magic cards? I think this

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Speaker 1: is a different way of looking at it, but kind

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Speaker 1: of answering the question more specifically, if people are enjoying

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Speaker 1: actually infinity right now, Yes, a lot of people are.

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Speaker 1: It's actually about when we see look at the motivation

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Speaker 1: for players. Right we have Twitter polls where we can

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Speaker 1: see that you know, less than of the entire player

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Speaker 1: base are only in it for the money, So where

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Speaker 1: we see that maybe thirty percent is in it for

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Speaker 1: the community, So that would be all the social aspect

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Speaker 1: around it. That would be they find friends, they learn

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Speaker 1: about new technology, and then they actually love the game

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Speaker 1: at its current state, which to us is of course amazing,

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Speaker 1: And what it tells us is that when people come

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Speaker 1: into the game, they might be, you know, extrinsically motivated.

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Speaker 1: So let's say, hey, I can make you know r

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Speaker 1: o I, and I can make maybe are my r

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Speaker 1: o I back and let's say two months. Now, that's

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Speaker 1: an incredibly powerful driver of growth. So when we then

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Speaker 1: see that they come into the game, they fall in

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Speaker 1: love with, you know, the ecosystem, they fall in love

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Speaker 1: with everything that's around it, and then eventually some of

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Speaker 1: them collectors. And now this is where the kind of

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Speaker 1: intrinsic motivation part come in because when we see that players,

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Speaker 1: for example, in Acts Infinity, are spending over four thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars for an axe which has no way to gain

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Speaker 1: any money, that they can only buy it, they can

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Speaker 1: hold onto it, and then they can collect it. It's

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Speaker 1: actually more tied intrinsic motivation that they are they see

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Speaker 1: that what's happening in this community, that they want to

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Speaker 1: belong to it. They want to show off their status

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Speaker 1: because they're buying something that's exceedingly rare. And for us,

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Speaker 1: that's also kind of the direction that we want to

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Speaker 1: take actually in that you know, people find that this

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Speaker 1: is more real. Often times, these these digital assets which

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Speaker 1: are probably scares compared to when you look at something

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Speaker 1: like in real life in terms of luxury objects like

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Speaker 1: blue if its own bags or or let's say, rolux watchers,

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Speaker 1: because nobody knows how many of the them are in existence,

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Speaker 1: and the same actually goes for traditional digital assets in

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Speaker 1: normal games, like you have no idea how many of

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Speaker 1: these are in existence or if the game company just

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Speaker 1: they can simply dilute you. So I think that's you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the major differences. And also when we look

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Speaker 1: at you know, how much money is flowing into this

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Speaker 1: equal system and how many people are you know, interested

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Speaker 1: in the game itself, you know, the economy aspect of its.

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Speaker 1: Right now, over two point forty five billion dollars worth

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Speaker 1: of AXI n FT assets have been traded on our

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Speaker 1: n F t marketplace. So you know, simply saying that, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, the game isn't fun, I think it's very unfair.

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Speaker 1: And then also it doesn't it actually disrespects everything that

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Speaker 1: we are trying to build. And also the players in

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Speaker 1: our game who are spending you know, ten hours not

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Speaker 1: only on the game, like playing the game, but also

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Speaker 1: playing the marketplace, playing the social game. So I think

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Speaker 1: you know that these are it's very complex part of it.

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Speaker 1: Then you guys touched on it also early on when

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Speaker 1: you look at the when you look at the ecosystem

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Speaker 1: in Magic the Gathering, right, they had Friday Night Magic,

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Speaker 1: they had all of these magic grand free tournaments. Like

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Speaker 1: people are collecting their starting up their own you know,

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Speaker 1: Magic the gathering shops. The same thing is happening in Axi.

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Speaker 1: You have people are making their own you know, scholarships

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Speaker 1: or teams or even businesses. Right. I've seen a contract

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Speaker 1: work contract between fayers, right, I think that's very unique.

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Speaker 1: So I do want to get into how you're sort

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Speaker 1: of managing the whole economy of Axe. But just one

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Speaker 1: more question on this point. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 1: criticisms is the high cost of entry and this idea

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Speaker 1: that maybe existing players are making money from the influx

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Speaker 1: of new players, So what would happen to the game

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Speaker 1: if you were to lower the entry costs? And I

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Speaker 1: think I read somewhere that you were planning or thinking

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Speaker 1: about doing like a free to play version of Taxi.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what would happen to the

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Speaker 1: existing product if prices for entry got lowered? And then

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Speaker 1: also why the free to play idea if the financial

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Speaker 1: incentives are part of the equation of Axi as it

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Speaker 1: was originally conceived. Yeah, sure, so Act Infinity was always

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Speaker 1: actually designed to be calm, free to play, because that's

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Speaker 1: how you know, see that we connect into the get

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Speaker 1: the AXI product into as many hands as possible. Right,

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Speaker 1: we know that people just want to some of them

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Speaker 1: just might want to play the game, try it out

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Speaker 1: before they actually take the plunge and you know, buy

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Speaker 1: there for his game character. So what we can rather

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Speaker 1: do is we can get their ability to earn tokens

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Speaker 1: if they you know, if they if they play the

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Speaker 1: free type of game. And a big reason for why

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Speaker 1: we don't have it is we actually have to solve

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00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 1: a lot of different problems before you know, we were

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Speaker 1: ready to distribute or even try to distribute the game

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Speaker 1: on more traditional app stores. And that means that, let's say,

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Speaker 1: if we want to have as many millions of users

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Speaker 1: or even billions of users, that we're looking for the

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00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: underlying you know, infrastructure needs to be there, and the

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Speaker 1: same also goals for you know, how we are looking

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Speaker 1: at the distribution channel. So when we are distributing, actually,

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Speaker 1: let's say, if we want to distribute actually on the

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Speaker 1: iOS or the the Apple Store or Google Play, like,

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Speaker 1: there is currently no way for people to just simply

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Speaker 1: click and then buy and get there and if he

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Speaker 1: very easily right, so we needed to make our own

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Speaker 1: distribution channel for that. The goal is to distribute the

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Speaker 1: new game on Google Play or the Apple Store and

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00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 1: eventually kind of on board them from there to become

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Speaker 1: blockchain type of players where they can actually own their

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Speaker 1: digital assets and you know, by extension, there also their identity.

404
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Speaker 1: Before we go on a little bit further, Tracy, you

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Speaker 1: both kind of mention and did. But it has gotten

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Speaker 1: incredible success in the Philippines where there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people playing Axe, and as you mentioned, are these

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Speaker 1: so called scholarships because the price of the three n

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Speaker 1: f T s that one is required to buy has

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Speaker 1: gotten high, and so could you explain this sort of

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Speaker 1: like this sub phenomenon that's going on. What are the

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Speaker 1: show called scholarships and how is it enabling people who

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Speaker 1: might otherwise not have much cash to upfront to get

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Speaker 1: onto the game, to get into the game. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: the interesting thing about the scholarship is that it was

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Speaker 1: actually made by our players first. Like that feature, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we always had an idea that we wanted to make,

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Speaker 1: you know, let players lend out their axes to other

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Speaker 1: players because we had such an early, you know, active

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Speaker 1: player base who were breeding accees before they were very expensive.

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Speaker 1: So some players might have several thousands of axes and

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Speaker 1: they wanted to use them, but not a lot of

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00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 1: people they couldn't afford these act characters. So that feature

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00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: was actually coming internally as well. But then the way

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00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: that our accounts accounts at up his work is that

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Speaker 1: it allows people to actually separate being of the assets

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00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 1: by the playing of the game. So that means that

428
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: if you own a team of access on your account,

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00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: you can actually let another player log into that play

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Speaker 1: the game, and then the rewards will go to the

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00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: main account, which then again can be split between the

432
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 1: player and the owner of the character. Players actually saw

433
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: that and they did it themselves, and then we just

434
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 1: decided to let them run with it. So, you know,

435
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: from the sky Navis perspective, we don't promote any of that,

436
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: you know, lending of it yet because we haven't had

437
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 1: that feature internally, but you know, people are are still

438
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: spreading it, of course, and it's very interesting to see

439
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 1: how that has developed. Wait, so this actually reminds me

440
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: of one sort of technical thing that I wanted to

441
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: ask you. But you have rules that no one can

442
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: have more than one account at a time. Can can

443
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: you explain why those rules are in place? Yeah? Sure,

444
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: to sink. I think that's one of the most important

445
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: things of an ecosystem such as acts. So the way

446
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: that when we look at Acting Infinity, we think of

447
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: it as a network, and the way that a network

448
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, grows is of course, you know, huge new

449
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: human beings. They come into the network and they tell

450
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: their friends and they might add value to it. And

451
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: that value could be let's say, create content or you know,

452
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: they might stream, they might even play the game. One

453
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: of these things. They add value to the to the game.

454
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: Side of action infinity and in return we can actually

455
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: give them some tokens, and that token, for example, is

456
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: tied into into the breeding aspect of the game. But

457
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: when you look at, for example, the person who is

458
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: playing several counts at the same time, or the worst cases,

459
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: they might be using robots like they're trying to book

460
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: the ecosystem, that again, it doesn't add any more value

461
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: to the network. So then if they are then experting

462
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: it by getting more tokens than they should, that's actually

463
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: a net loss for everyone else who is playing acting.

464
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: So that's where we have that have that rule into place.

465
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: So one of the most important things that one of

466
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 1: the most difficult things that are creating something like access

467
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: is that you know, proof of human being. How do

468
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: we make sure that they're actually humans on the other

469
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: side and they're not not robots trying to to exploit

470
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: this system. And a part about is the part of

471
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: our that that's possible is you know, actually the fact

472
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: that it's it's quite expensive to get started, so that

473
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: the stake that these abusers have in the game is

474
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: actually quite high. If they are abusing and we catch them,

475
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, we we restrict their access to the game,

476
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: and so that costs about six dollars. That's also about

477
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 1: a pretty heavy deterrent to not breakthrough rules. So this

478
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: gets into like sort of a really interesting philosophical question

479
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: about block chains, because you know, you think back to

480
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: like the sort of like the core chains. There's nobody

481
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: at big coin. You know, there's nobody who in bitcoin

482
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: who even knows who you are. You can have infinite

483
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: number of wallets if you want, and different private keys

484
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: on different hardware wallets and so forth. The Ethereum chain

485
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: is roughly the same. But then as these new applications developed,

486
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: and I actually do want to get into how you

487
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: use Ethereum because you've also sort of built your own

488
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: side chain. I think that's interesting. But as new applications developed,

489
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: some of these sort of like core principle ideas that

490
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: we might associate with block chain anonymity, pseudo anonymity, no rules, trustlessness, etcetera.

491
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: Certain of those get sacrificed such that there is, in

492
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: your case, humans making rules, humans who could kick other

493
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: humans off. Some of the sort of trustlessness core basic

494
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: ideas of blockchain does not necessarily apply once it gets

495
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: down to the game application level. Well, for us this

496
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: is a very natural actually how the game evolved. So

497
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: if we look back into we came into the space

498
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: having very I would say we were naive, but also

499
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: very hopeful in the way that you know, the the

500
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: the economy and like everything in the ecosystem in the book,

501
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: chain ecosystem would evolve. So when we created actually pretty

502
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: much everything was on chain, and by that I mean

503
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: you needed to send the transaction whenever you wanted to

504
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: bat and then again you know that combined into an

505
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: old chained result which anyone can prove, anyone can see,

506
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: and you know, we were following that decentralized details. Over time.

507
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: What we realized is that you know, building a product

508
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: based on these very constraints, like very heavy constraints, it's

509
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: almost impossible, especially if you want to reach you know,

510
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: the masses, if you want to teach them about this

511
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: new technology. So that basically means that we had to

512
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: take you know, we had to sacrifice parts the centralization,

513
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: and the beginning was actually the game side. So right

514
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: now out of the game logic is off chain. So

515
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: that means that we already as a game studio, can

516
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: make many many changes, right we can also you know

517
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: let's say if we want to buff like certain skills

518
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: make them stronger weaker, we can do that, of course,

519
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: and we're very transparent about and I think you know,

520
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: that is one of the core you know, the core

521
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: things that we think is important when you're building using

522
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: this technology. So what are the most important things for

523
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: the players or for the end user in our experience,

524
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: what the users won't right now is they want to

525
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: like have the build re need to freely trade the

526
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: assets that they have. They want to be able to

527
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: monetize their time inside the game, and they want to

528
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: be able to see how many of these things are

529
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: in existence, right And I don't mean you know, the

530
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: level of trustlessness that you might have in bitcoin, for example,

531
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: because the values there are are very very heavy, so

532
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: you might need very very decentralized chain where you know,

533
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: nothing can be censored. All that stuff. On our side,

534
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: we we actually you know, disregard that and going on

535
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: a little bit of a different direction, and that's you know,

536
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: a big part of why we managed to get to

537
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: where we are today. M Well, can we talk about

538
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: the blockchain then, so actually runs on ethereum and of course,

539
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: like one of the big criticisms of Ethereum is always

540
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: that it doesn't like work so well at a very

541
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: very large scale. So i'd be curious to get your

542
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: impression of like working with Ethereum and like how you're

543
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: sort of coping with that scaling problem as ACTI continues

544
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: to grow, because it, again, like acts is probably one

545
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: of the fastest growing Ethereum related projects at the moment.

546
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: So I imagine you have some experience with this. Yeah,

547
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: so actually has for many many years been very very

548
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: closely tied to the theorum. I mean, we deployed our

549
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: first initial versions on the theory. Our n f T

550
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: s are where even you know, deployed on the theory

551
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: before the n f T standard was set. That was

552
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: like March, or if I recall April. So what we

553
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: figured out is that if you are all of your

554
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 1: main assets on ethereum and you are dependent on you know,

555
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: sharing the block space with everyone else who is using

556
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: the ethereum blockchain, that's a very head like tall order

557
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: if you want to scale to to the level that

558
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: we wanted, or if you want let's say millions several

559
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: millions of users. So over time, overwy we were exploring

560
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: different scaling options, and in the end we decided to

561
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: build our own side chain to Ethereum. Now that is

562
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: much more energy efficient. It is much is a free

563
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: four player to actually make transactions, but it's going to

564
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: be very very cheap once we actually upgrade the chain

565
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. So it's an ongoing type of the situation.

566
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: We see that we need to be more effective, we

567
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: need our own infrastructure. So in I would say to

568
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: explain this in a in a very you know, simple way,

569
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: is we believe that we are in the server era

570
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: of block chains. And when I say that, I mean

571
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: when we look at how the Internet scales early on,

572
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: is that well, you couldn't really trust the clouds, or

573
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: you couldn't trust to have your servers or your your

574
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 1: homepage on another you know server. You needed to have

575
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: that you know, backbone in the basement so that you

576
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: could actually make sure that your server or that your

577
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: homepage was always up. The same thing is actually happening

578
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: right now where we see that if we're going to

579
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: go into we were going to trust Ethereum or you

580
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: know that the very decentralized web, we would be competing

581
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: for you know, space with every other application. So we

582
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: just decided to make ourselves make our own you know

583
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: server in the basement air, which is basically rollant for now,

584
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: where we can control some of the parameters and make

585
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: sure that we're not sharing books space with too many

586
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: of other you know, successful applications. I want to get

587
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: into this a little bit more because I think it's

588
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: really important for people think about the evolution of blockchain

589
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: in general. So it's called the ronan Ethereum side chain.

590
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: It's not completely disconnected from Ethereum, and there are other

591
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: side changes as well. There's the Binance chain, which has

592
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: done very well, and that's also a side chain. I

593
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: think there's one called Madic, which is also a side chain.

594
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: Explain how a side chain still works and relies on

595
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: to some extent the security and trustlessness of the core

596
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: Ethereum chain while offering sort of scalable and cheap transaction. Sure,

597
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: So when we look at you know, both Binance, the

598
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: smart chain, and Polygon or Mathic as we said, and

599
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: also rollant Um, what we see is that these chains

600
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: are built using the Theorem virtual machine, which is the

601
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: the code base that is running Ethereum. So that's deadly

602
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: where you start out and then you change certain things

603
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: in the in the configuration of it, and that might

604
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: be you know four ethereum right, you're using proof of

605
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: work when it comes to mining, so you know, you're

606
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: dependent on all of these other machines that are helping

607
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: out to validate transactions, and then you're giving a reward,

608
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: which is you know, the mining reward for something like

609
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: Roland right, we are using right now, we are in

610
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: a proof of authority type of situation where you know,

611
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: people are not staking any of their tokens, but they're

612
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: staking their reputation basically the different type of validators. So

613
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,479
Speaker 1: that's one way of doing it. And eventually we're going

614
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: to be moving over to a proof of steak or

615
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: delegated proof of steak where you need to have your

616
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: own tokens that you are then staking, which is then

617
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: your well then you know, get slashed in case you

618
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: are a malicious actor in the in the ecosystem. So

619
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: let's say that you are just just to be clear,

620
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: does your side chain interact with the main ethereum chain

621
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: at all anymore or is it merely that it uses

622
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: the same E v M language. Yeah, So so there

623
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: are there's a there's a connection there. Whenever you want

624
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: to let's say, if you want to move your assets

625
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: from Rollan to Ethereum, you can definitely do that, but

626
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: there is no level of security that's directly like we

627
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: are not cannant on Ethereum to that extenter. But of course,

628
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: like if Ethereum got compromised, you know, our chain would

629
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: also be very affected by that. But if our chain

630
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: got compromised, all the assets that are on rolland would

631
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: then you know, be affected on Ethereum as well, because

632
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: there's a there's a bridge that is connecting the two.

633
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: So whenever you're depositing your assets to Roland, which I

634
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: think is there's about you know, two point five to

635
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: three billion dollars worth of assets secured on Roland, will

636
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: you know that's the that's the risk for for everyone

637
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: who is postitting their assets there. So actually this reminds

638
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: me of something else I want to ask you, But um,

639
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: I think you recently announced that you're launching your own

640
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: decentralized exchange which is going to be built on Ronan.

641
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Can you walk us through like the thinking they're like,

642
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: why do your own one and then why launch it

643
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: on your own side chain versus something else. Sure, So

644
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: when we are looking at the products that we need, right,

645
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: so we're always thinking about it from from the player perspective.

646
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: So what do the players in actual infinity actually want

647
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: and how and how do they want it? So let's

648
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: say when you're playing the game, you get your get

649
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: your SLP talkings, right, the next natural step it Okay,

650
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to breathe or new Actually okay, well

651
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: if I can do that, then I can do that

652
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: on Roland. But if you want to trade it into

653
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: something else right now, you actually have to bridge that

654
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: to ethereum or move that to finance or some other exchange.

655
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: Right that is a very bad used for experience. Like

656
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: that's not really how it is in any other normal game.

657
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: So if you're comparing you to let's say World of Forcraft,

658
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: when you are finding let's say gold there or any

659
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: other let's say, would you would be able to trade

660
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: that immediately on a marketplace. So that's it. That's that's it.

661
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's just going to be an expanded marketplace

662
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: which now suddenly has access to these fungible tokens like

663
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, SLP a excess and in the future maybe

664
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: would inside access stone I think you've got guys understand

665
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: my drift here. It's just about the underlying infrastructure is

666
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: a decentralized exchange. So for normal people, like the only

667
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: thing they would see is the marketplace. Are you going

668
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: to offer um like some form of defy on the

669
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: new exchange as well? So one of the interesting things

670
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: about act now is that you can take the tokens

671
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: that are in existence, like a access or SLP or whatever,

672
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: and do lots of de five things to them, like

673
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: staking or lending them out or whatever you want to do.

674
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 1: Is that like also an activity that you would aim

675
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: to capture for your users, that that that touches on

676
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: some of the you know, the future that we see

677
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: for Sky maybe is an ACCI. So when we are

678
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: looking at our users right, what we see is that

679
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: of the user base, they have never used any sort

680
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: of crypto before. Of them have never even had a

681
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: bank account before. So these players, they're very new to

682
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: the financial system. And if they can start playing a

683
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: game like ACXI where they actually end up owning their

684
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: tokens and their assets and by extension digital identity, that

685
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: means that eventually they might be able to do something

686
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: more with them. Because they have their wallet automatically created

687
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: when they set up a game account, and they will

688
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: get money there too, and that means that you know,

689
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 1: they can maybe even spend that in the real world eventually,

690
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: and of course be able to lend on it. It

691
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: just depends on features we want to add to Roman,

692
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: and that's going to take a little bit of time

693
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: to figure out, Like how effective will the chain be

694
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: as we are scaling, So let's say we might take

695
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: ten million users one million, how how many things can

696
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: actually be on chain before even we are struggling at

697
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: this scare. But I'm super excited about the potential to

698
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: you know, onboard millions of people who have never used

699
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: financial tools at all into the connected world. I should say,

700
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: so I had another question, but I want to ask

701
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: this first because you have a problem that very few

702
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: crypto applications have had to deal with, which is mass popularity.

703
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: So it'saying even if you do look at like the

704
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: top applications that are built on top of Ethereum, like

705
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: unit swap whose founder we talked to, or the lending

706
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: protocol of or some of these others, they may have

707
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: a lot of money locked in them, but they don't

708
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: exactly have like mass popularity by any stretch on the

709
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: scale that actually we're talking like millions of people. I'm

710
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: pretty sure there's not like there are not many sort

711
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: of crypto apps that have like millions of people like

712
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: you have. So you have this problem and one of

713
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: the ways you solved it was creating the run in

714
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: side chain. Do you ultimately see, like, let's say, you know,

715
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: just looking at the broad expanse of things that happened

716
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: on crypto and various n f T projects, do you

717
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: ultimately that as things get popular, that it'll look like

718
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: a you know, maybe some lending protocol becomes really huge,

719
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: and like why are we paying huge fees to eat whales?

720
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: Why are we accepting such variable gas fees every time

721
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: there's like a new token launch of some like derivative

722
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 1: of a puppy coin or something like that. And we'll

723
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: then make the decision that why don't we have our

724
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 1: own ethereum side chain where we can have stable prices,

725
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: cheap prices, high scalable throughput, and not have to worry

726
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: about some new n f T drop that's going to

727
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: cause gas fees while we're trying to do like our

728
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: staking on unit swap that has nothing to do with it, Like,

729
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: is this Do you see what you've done as a

730
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: likely um part of the roadmap for other popular apps,

731
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: even if they don't see it yet. Yeah, I mean definitely.

732
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: I think the great thing about about building on on

733
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: the e v M is that you know, we can

734
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: top into the interior and ecosystem and we can basically

735
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: fork off if we see that there there are things

736
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: that we might find valuable. But at the same time,

737
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: it also adds value to ethereum, because any innovation that

738
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: happens on the Roland side chain will also benefit ethereum.

739
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: So I'm in gredually bullish on ethereum as you know,

740
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: the center of or the the how can I call

741
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: it the the the settlement layer for the new Internet,

742
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: And I think in as ethereum scales, that's just going

743
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: to be more and more apparent um. So for me,

744
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: I think it actually benefits everyone. But but I'm not

745
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: sure like that all of the all of the transaction

746
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: should be on the theorem right now as they are.

747
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: Of course, I'm an avid and a t collector. I love,

748
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, trying to get some tokens, but you know,

749
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: when when when there's going on, but you know, it's

750
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: a very heavy gas work, so it's pretty hard to

751
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: even for me, even for me to justify it. Of course,

752
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,479
Speaker 1: as as a crypto person who's been in the space

753
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: for years now, I think it's getting a little bit ridiculous,

754
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: and of course it can't really be like that, so

755
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: but I think, you know, it's it's just the start.

756
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: But I'm as I said, I am bullish on the

757
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: on the theoreum capturing a lot of values. So this

758
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: gets back to another question that I was wondering about it,

759
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: and I guess it has to do with openness and

760
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: the degree of like, Okay, as you go down this

761
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: sort of like I guess maybe as you go up

762
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: the sort of application layers, you sacrifice certain elements of

763
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: sort of core blockchain trustlessness. Can could someone else on

764
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 1: the run in side chain build an actually game could

765
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: if Tracy and I came up with the game, could

766
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: we develop one that people could use their extra characters

767
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: and plan that's the plan in the future, But for

768
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: now it's still a little bit earlier. So what we

769
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: need is to make sure that it first works for

770
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: our use case. That's I mean, that's where we made

771
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: it right, it would be too early for us to

772
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: to share the access with with with the world. First

773
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: of all, like we don't have let's say, the the

774
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: APIs aren't you know, solid enough to to ensure that

775
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, not enough people are hammering them, so you know,

776
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: that might mean that there would be you know, less stable,

777
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: that the service are less stable than they should be.

778
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: So we're actually waiting a little bit on that. So

779
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: we open it up. But in the future, you know,

780
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 1: not the only Acti Infinity games, but but also other games,

781
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: other games studios that that's what we plan to work

782
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: with because you know, if you're a game studio want

783
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: to wanting to make something like Acti Infinity or another

784
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: type of game, and you see ACTE Okay, they're successful,

785
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: they have a nice economy, and they even have the

786
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: scalable infrastructure of the distribution channels. Now why would they

787
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: not work with us? So so that's exactly why we

788
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: kind of made this entire ecosystem. So we needed to

789
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: solve our problems first, and that means that we probably

790
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: understand them anyone else in the world, and we can

791
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: also solve them for other games studios in the future

792
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: as well, so why don't we talk a little bit

793
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: more about the sort of in game economy, because one

794
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: of the interesting things in all of us, as we

795
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: mentioned in the intro, was not only are you making

796
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: all these technical decisions about, you know, how to manage

797
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: the blockchain, whether or not to launch a decentralized platform

798
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, or a decentralized exchange, but you're

799
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: also managing that ecosystem. You're managing an actual economy, so

800
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: you're sort of like acting like a central bank. So

801
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: could you maybe give us an instance of for an

802
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: example of the kind of problems that you will encounter

803
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: in managing the axis system? So I imagine there is

804
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: volatility in um some of the axes that actual n

805
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: f T S and then you mentioned, of course the

806
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: currencies or the tokens access and s LP they've been

807
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: going up quite a lot recently. What kind of challenges

808
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: does that pose and and how what's your vision for

809
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: how this economy should ultimately be working and heading to

810
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: sure trace? Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of

811
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: the one of the real interesting things here that you

812
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: not only are we doing very heavy technological innovation, but

813
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: there's also business model innovation here um econom make innovation

814
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, how do we see the

815
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 1: world working in the future. So we see action Comminuity

816
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: as a digital nation. And of course we are functioning

817
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: as the states in a sense that we are tax

818
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: system a smaller amount rather than us you know, from

819
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: a marketplace feed perspective, right, whenever a person is trading

820
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: on our marketplace, we take a four fee, and that

821
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, enables a lot of economic activity between players

822
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: because it becomes a little bit like let's say the US,

823
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: whenever people are doing commerce against each other. You know,

824
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: the state might take a small tax on that. But

825
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: in traditional games, the state would you know, take of

826
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: of of every economic activity that's happening, like that's their goal.

827
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 1: So if we were a traditional game, we would take

828
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: all of the money. But that's kind of one part

829
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: of a lookout, you know. The one of the more

830
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: challenging things is actually balancing out the or you know,

831
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: making sure that the sp price is not too reflective.

832
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: When new people call into the game, they might have

833
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, oh, super high expectations SUP is going to

834
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: stay at forty cents forever, when in reality, three months

835
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: before that it was at you know, two cents, so

836
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: that is a problem from that, you know, level of

837
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: expectation that these players have. So we are trying to,

838
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: you know, make sure that the price is somewhat stable,

839
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: and there are different ways that we can do that.

840
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: So when we see acts, as I mentioned, we we

841
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: function as the state, and that when we are balancing out,

842
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: Let's say how much SLP is required per breed of Actually,

843
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: we might reduce that or we might increase that. And

844
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: then there's another portion of the breeding fee which is

845
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: required to pay like as a developer fee, which is

846
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: also a part of how we make money, So we

847
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: might increase that or decrease that so that you know,

848
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: it balances out a little bit more. You know, I

849
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: was thinking about you know, Tracy started the discussion talking

850
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: about Magic the Gathering, and I admit I really should

851
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: learn more about the game and its history. But my

852
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: impression is the company Wizards of the Coast has taken

853
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: its responsibility as the steward of the magic economy very seriously.

854
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: They've never like flood the market with lots of different

855
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: cards because they might be expensive at any at any point.

856
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: It's sort of like made these decisions and try to

857
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: get things out of way? Can you can it all

858
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: be done? Is you say eventually algorithmically such that no

859
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: one needs to trust you? Or do you always think

860
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: there's going to be like some entity that like feels

861
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: a sense of responsibility towards towards the game, towards the ecosystem. Actually,

862
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: let's begin with Magic to Gathering. So I still follow

863
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: that scene lately, like I mean, Wizards of the Coast

864
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: are you know, now trying to extract as much money

865
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: as they count from the player base. So they so

866
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: they are dumping out all of these different we got

867
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: we gotta do Wizards of the Coast episode, it's like, yeah, alright,

868
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: we gotta yeah, definitely asked them like how much money

869
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: are they earn? Because it must be insane. But in

870
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: any case, the way that we see it is that

871
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, Act Infinity is should be governed by the

872
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: a excess token holders, but sky Navis, which is you know,

873
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: the company that that we have, needs to be very

874
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: deeply involved with setting the direction and especially as we

875
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: move towards the centralization, because you know, if a if

876
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: a game or any kind of the call is supposed

877
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: to be governed by you know, the token holders. That's

878
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: kind of a role to decentralization. But we need to

879
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: be progressive in that sense. We need we need to move,

880
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: we need to walk before we can run. So by

881
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: saying that I need to we actually need to make

882
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: sure that it's stable first. So that would be one

883
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,959
Speaker 1: of like the foundational things that we need to ship.

884
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: How long will that take? I guess we'll see. We

885
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: don't know because it has never been created before, so

886
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: we might take five years, it might take ten years.

887
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:25,959
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we have to be honest about

888
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: these things that you know, sure, we're making something brand

889
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 1: new here. There are some problems, but there are massive

890
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: opportunities here as well. And I think the whole world

891
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: will be watching exactly what's happening in actually Infinity because

892
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: maybe not only can we you know, improve the game

893
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 1: side of it, but maybe also improve you know, how

894
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: the world works. So I'm incredibly excited about the future here.

895
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: Not to be labor the Wizards of the Coast analogy,

896
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: but I mean one of the things that they did

897
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: do in order to sort of rebalance out the magic

898
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: the gathering experience or ecosystem, was they set up what

899
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: was it called the pro League right when, like when

900
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: there were so many powerful cards that were out in

901
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: the game, like wasn't becoming that much fun to play

902
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: because if someone you know had a Black Lotus or whatever,

903
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: they could just like without a bunch of those and

904
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: win the game really easily. Is no one wanted to

905
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: play anymore. They created a pro league that had different rules,

906
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: and the whole idea was to actually make the game

907
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: fun and interesting again. And my understanding is that Axie

908
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: does have some people who sort of livestream gaming on

909
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: Twitch or Discord or whatever. But like, is that something

910
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: that that you could see, like you guys really pushing for,

911
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: like this idea of sort of like a professional league

912
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: or maybe like more creative solutions to solving imbalances that

913
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: may emerge in the Axi economy. Yeah. I mean, so

914
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: my background is, you know, as a game person, I

915
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: loved I was even trying to get into the pro

916
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: tore at one point in Magically Gathering. But I have

917
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: played competitive you know, both Worldcraft three Data and Dodata two.

918
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: So I mean I'm always pushing for that side of

919
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: you know, the acts infinity, And I think you see

920
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: Actuffinity working, is that you know, the people who have

921
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: the best access, they can't always win all of the time.

922
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: There has to be skilled involved as well, and that's

923
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: you know, the next the game aspect of it. That's

924
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: also why we are you know, doubling down on the

925
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: East Ports and various areas of the world so we

926
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: might and we even have you know, a seasonable season

927
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: inside the game itself, so if you're ranking among the

928
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: top thousand players, you actually get a higher reward. So

929
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: we want to reward good players, and I think that's

930
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: a part of what gives certain aspects of access value. Alex.

931
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 1: It was great to have you on and hear about

932
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: like how AXI is working currently and all the things

933
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: that you have planned for it. I mean, I think

934
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: this is definitely one of the more for most ambitious

935
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: projects that I've heard in the crypto space. So really

936
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: interesting to hear from you. Thank you so much. Yeah,

937
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: thanks crazy, thanks, Joe, I mean, happy to be here.

938
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: I think, incredibly exciting to side of days that had Yeah,

939
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: that was great, Thank you so much so, Joe. Um.

940
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: I thought that conversation was like very very fascinating, mostly

941
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: for the point that you kind of made about how

942
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: this is one of the few blockchain projects that is

943
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: actually like scaling at an enormous rate and actually having

944
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people who aren't playing it. Yeah, there's

945
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: a lot of crypto stuff that has a ton of money,

946
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: Like there's a ton of like money, but there are

947
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: not a lot of crypto things that have a ton

948
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: of people and or apps. And I think, like if

949
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: you actually looked at like the daily number of people

950
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: like say using unit swap wildly successful defied platform, I

951
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: don't think there's like still like bad many is certainly

952
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: not dealing with millions of people by any stretch. So

953
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: it also gets back to a point that I think

954
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: we've discussed in some of our DeFi episode, which is

955
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 1: about the educational process in all of this. So like, I,

956
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: you know, it's tricky enough for me to open a

957
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: meta mask account from like Hong Kong using a Hong

958
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 1: Kong credit card, um, but then like trying to figure

959
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: out how to state coins or do actual defy things

960
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: like it just seems incredibly complex to me. But if

961
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: you start having these games where everything is sort of

962
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: built in, and that's why I think the decentralized exchange

963
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: is quite interesting, and you start sort of teaching I

964
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: mean literally millions of people about crypto and blockchain and

965
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: n f t s and defy like that is very

966
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: interesting to me. It actually kind of blows my mind

967
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: the hoops that people have to jump through, and then

968
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: they do jump through them, like you know, I like

969
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I like like like we've only said,

970
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: like you know, you set up a metal mask account, etcetera.

971
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 1: It's pretty complicated. Buying coins is complicated staking and then

972
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: it's like you know, and it's just like on like

973
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: the big block chain, so that's just like ethereum. And

974
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, now I'm gonna like bridge my

975
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: uh tokens over to madic or the Binance chain or

976
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: something like that. But like people are doing it and

977
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: figuring it out, and then it's like okay, sky mave

978
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: is or actually I have to buy three axes and

979
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: I need some SLP because that's what's necessary. And yeah,

980
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: it's like yeah, yeah, I saw a thing once. It's

981
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: like a nine step process, and yet to have that

982
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: nine step process and they have that success, you know,

983
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: it's still I guess to this fundamental question though, that's

984
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: like almost impossible to answer. It's like is it really

985
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: fun or is this like, yeah, I'm going to do

986
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: nine steps because I can make more money in a

987
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: day than I can working minimum wage and the Philippines

988
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: which is where they're very popular, so that's still like

989
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: kind of this unanswered thing. But then on the flip side,

990
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: it's like this has been the criticism of crypto from

991
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: day one. It's like, well, aren't you just in this

992
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: for the speculation And it's like seems like the answer

993
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: to a lot of these things. Yes, but crypto keeps growing.

994
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's very like it's chicken and Eggie.

995
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: So here's what I think is changing, Like this idea

996
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: that crypto is a viable alternative to normal jobs or

997
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: traditional jobs, or the idea that like crypto is a

998
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: viable way of making money. And you weren't here for

999
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: this episode, but Joseph Wang about a week or two

1000
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: ago was talking about this idea that like maybe one

1001
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: of the factors in persistent like shortages of labor supply

1002
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: in the US might be because people are sat there

1003
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: saying loads of people making money off of bitcoin or

1004
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: whatever or game stock, stock or whatever, and so that

1005
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: kind of becomes a viable alternative. I think that is

1006
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: what's changing. Like if you would have told people ten

1007
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: or twenty years ago, uh, you don't have to work

1008
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: your day job. You can just sit and play like

1009
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: this Axi Infinity game and make a living wage, I

1010
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: think like no one would have be yeah, yeah, but

1011
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: and that's true. But to push back and to your

1012
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 1: point that you brought up, it's like, how much of

1013
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: these jobs are only viable because their premised on the

1014
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: existence of new people coming into the space. So it's

1015
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: like you could make a living selling paint. It's not

1016
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: premised on the existence of more people are entering the

1017
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: paint industry. It's premised on the existence of people wanting

1018
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: to paint their own right. Like, at some point, I

1019
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: think that's a very valid criticism. At some point, crypto

1020
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: maybe be the kind of thing where it's like, okay,

1021
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: it's providing financial services that people have ven used in

1022
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: the real economy in some meaning, and that could be

1023
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: a metaverse. So when I say real economy, I don't

1024
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: necessarily mean a physical economy, but I do wonder, like

1025
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: how much of crypto profits are still simply premised on

1026
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: the idea of more people getting into crypto totally. And again,

1027
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: like I think ACXI is sort of like a great

1028
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: example of all these big themes and questions all in

1029
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: like one concentrated games. So it's going to be really

1030
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: interesting to see what happens as they continue to grow. Um,

1031
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: you know, they were talking about getting to billions of people,

1032
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: and it's even alex said, like, at some point, okay,

1033
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 1: it's like when we hit our two billion tam or

1034
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: when we then we we really got to make sure

1035
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: the game is like super fun to play. Yeah, exactly. Um, okay,

1036
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: well should we leave it there. Yeah, there's so much

1037
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: more to talk about that there. As you say, there's

1038
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: like no stopping point with any of this, but yeah,

1039
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: let's leave it there. All right. Um. This has been

1040
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.

1041
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Halloway. And

1042
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at

1043
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 1: the Stalwart. And you should follow our guest on Twitter,

1044
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: Alexander Leonard Larson. He's the co founder and CEO of

1045
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: sky Mavis, the company behind Actually Infinity. His handle is

1046
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: at psych out six. Follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's

1047
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: at Laura M. Carlson, Follow the Bloomberg Head of podcast

1048
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: Francesca Levi at Francesco Today, and check out all of

1049
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks

1050
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: for listening.