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Speaker 1: There's been a huge surge of high schoolers using e

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Speaker 1: cigarettes or vaporing. There's breaking news in America's vaping crisis.

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Speaker 1: Late today, a death was reported in Georgia vaporing company

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Speaker 1: Jewel and some hot Water after the Food and Drug

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Speaker 1: Administration said the company illegally marketed it's nicotine vaping devices

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Speaker 1: as safe. Jewels, the maker of East Cigarettes, just might

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Speaker 1: be the most hated company in America right now. But

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Speaker 1: before it became so big and before it became so controversial,

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Speaker 1: Jewels co founders talked about a lofty mission to get

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Speaker 1: the world's one billion smokers to stop smoking. I would

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Speaker 1: tell people, you know, anyone who will listen, fifty years

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Speaker 1: from now, nobody's gonna be smoking cigarettes. They're gonna look

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Speaker 1: back and think, oh my god, I can't believe people

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Speaker 1: used to do that. What scientists Genuishing was there in

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Speaker 1: the startups early years, and she helped invent the technology

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Speaker 1: that later made Jewels such a big hit. Now, as

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Speaker 1: Jewel faces a storm of government investigations in lawsuits, she

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Speaker 1: thinks the answer to the industry's crisis is that somehow

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Speaker 1: better safer e cigarette. Today. In the show, reporters Shelly

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Speaker 1: Banjo and I visit this chemist news startup, Misslabs. I'm

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Speaker 1: you're listening to decryptin stay with us, Hey, Shelly, how's

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Speaker 1: it going good? How are you? It's good to see

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Speaker 1: you in person. It's good to be here. Do you

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Speaker 1: want to introduce yourself? Sure? So? My name is Shelly

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Speaker 1: Banjo and I'm a tech reporter, usually based out of

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong, where I cover technology in Asia. I think

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Speaker 1: he told me that this story started out as a

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Speaker 1: tip that you got six months ago. That's right. I

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Speaker 1: was having breakfast UM with a venture capitalist and he

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Speaker 1: was telling me about this hot new East cigarette company

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Speaker 1: that he was investing in. I thought, I have do

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Speaker 1: a story on this, this Chinese woman who was a

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Speaker 1: scientist who was striking out on her own after working

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Speaker 1: for Jewel and really creating the East Cigarette. There's got

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Speaker 1: to be a story there. So it took us a

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Speaker 1: while to figure out a date that worked for everyone,

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Speaker 1: but we finally got you out here to San Francisco. UM.

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Speaker 1: I picked you up and we drove down to San

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Speaker 1: Jose where we got her a few months earlier. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is a podcast. UM. I figured we

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Speaker 1: would just start with a little tour in the area.

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Speaker 1: Of course, john Way first took us around the coworking

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Speaker 1: space that they're in and then to a very small

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Speaker 1: lab which is where she and just a few other

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Speaker 1: scientists work out of I think this is where they

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Speaker 1: do their R and D right right. They have about

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Speaker 1: sixty employees and most of them are in China. And

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Speaker 1: the product was sitting on a shelf with some of

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Speaker 1: their other competitors products too. They don't look as fancy

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Speaker 1: as the other products are in the market. There are

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Speaker 1: basically more mature tomb one is the space gray and

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Speaker 1: the other ones the silver. Remember the formal name then,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, yeah, so, um, what's the reasoning there. We

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Speaker 1: believe that a secrette as a whole is designed for

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Speaker 1: adult and mature user smokers. And then we did notice

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Speaker 1: that many other products they use very fancy colors um

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Speaker 1: neon colors, and then or so they add a lot

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Speaker 1: of fancy flavors that their user. This is um lower edge,

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Speaker 1: which is what we really wanted to avoid. So like

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Speaker 1: that bright blue one for example, that one would be

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Speaker 1: something that's a lot of flashier and something. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: there were actually a lot of other products as even

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Speaker 1: more flashier than this. There is definitely a theme she

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Speaker 1: was trying to get across. Yes, she was really hammering home.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is for adults. This isn't for kids.

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Speaker 1: We don't have the fruity flavors and the candy colors.

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Speaker 1: This is really for people in their forties who have

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Speaker 1: been smoking for a really long time. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to walk us through chin Ways Bio sure. So. Chin

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Speaker 1: Way grew up in China, and then she decided to

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Speaker 1: follow in her parents footsteps and moved to the US

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Speaker 1: to do her pH d in chemistry and chemical engineering,

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Speaker 1: and she started at Janentech and then went over to

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Speaker 1: matt Pharmaceuticals, which eventually was acquired by Allergan, the the

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Speaker 1: botox maker. While she was there, she was working mostly

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Speaker 1: on drugs that you would hail so think of asthma

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Speaker 1: and hailers. So she had really you know, she was

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Speaker 1: this very serious student that translated into a serious scientist,

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Speaker 1: very goal oriented, and out of nowhere. She was cold

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Speaker 1: call by this recruiter who was working for the company

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Speaker 1: that developed jewel. So jewels had a few names Plume

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Speaker 1: Packed Labs. Now it's jewel just for the sake of simplicity.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna refer to them as as Jewel. Initially, UM,

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Speaker 1: I have to. I had to admit that I'm not

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Speaker 1: very familiar with this new company. So so they were

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Speaker 1: a strong team with make kind of continuing background and

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Speaker 1: product design, but they didn't have anybody with chemistry training.

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Speaker 1: Um so, and that's why they had this opening. So

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Speaker 1: she goes in. She says, Okay, I have an open mind.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to keep an open mind. I told specifically

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Speaker 1: to the recruiter in the beginning that I was not

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Speaker 1: a smoker and I don't plan to start smoking. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then they said it's not a requirement, even though

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Speaker 1: even though many of their team, um, they are smokers.

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Speaker 1: When I actually went to interview, they were puffing on

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Speaker 1: their product back there. Um, it was not as annoying

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Speaker 1: at all as um, somebody smoking next to you. She

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Speaker 1: was one of those people that hated secondhand smoke, and um,

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Speaker 1: she was pretty attracted to the mission. Like the way

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Speaker 1: they definitely sold it to her and the way they

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Speaker 1: needed to to attract a scientists who had a farm

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Speaker 1: of background that you know, we're creating an alternative cigarettes.

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Speaker 1: This could be a way to get millions of not

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Speaker 1: billion people off of combustible cigarettes. You know, so struck

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Speaker 1: by the symbolism of her going from these inhalers that

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Speaker 1: deliver medicine right to these inhalers that deliver nicotine. But

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Speaker 1: she didn't seem to see that much of a distinction. Now,

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Speaker 1: she had this really straight faced thing about her. It

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Speaker 1: was very scientist like, you know, very matter of fact.

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Speaker 1: They did mention that some other health care professionals they

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Speaker 1: might be hesitant to, you know, do anything related tobacco related,

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Speaker 1: But um, I actually hold different views on that because

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Speaker 1: I think being body develops medications right of drugs, it's

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Speaker 1: actually to treat sickness. But I do see um smoking

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Speaker 1: as a behavior causing a lot of health problem and

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Speaker 1: then causing a lot of stress on public health space

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Speaker 1: in general. She had spent all her of her career

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Speaker 1: up to that point working on caring illnesses, and she

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Speaker 1: thought to herself, why am I carrying illnesses? Why don't

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Speaker 1: I stop the thing that's causing these illnesses in the

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Speaker 1: first place, which were cigarettes. Okay, so in Chinway starts

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Speaker 1: working at Jewel She really likes the fast pace people

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Speaker 1: are working around the clock. They're really excited about what

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Speaker 1: they're doing. They're young. They you know, there's beer and

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Speaker 1: stuff at the office and um, you know, her job

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Speaker 1: as a chemist is to make the liquid formulation that

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Speaker 1: goes into the Jewel pod. So basically figuring out how

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Speaker 1: to deliver that kind of nicotine hit to give you

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Speaker 1: that buzz in a few uh in a few minutes.

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Speaker 1: And so it's kind of the core of this produc

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Speaker 1: act And and she does, she figures it out, she

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Speaker 1: gets a patent, and um, it's a big accomplishment. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember that moment when it worked for the first time,

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Speaker 1: when those volunteers, um came to you and say that

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Speaker 1: they haven't touched the air a secret pack for a while,

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Speaker 1: right for so um from a pack of day down

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Speaker 1: to maybe a pack of months and then later to zero.

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Speaker 1: And when what do you think when they told you that, Well,

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Speaker 1: I do think that we have a great product and

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Speaker 1: we should let more people try it. And in June

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Speaker 1: they decide to launch the jewel product. They get four

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Speaker 1: people packed into this swinky Manhattan event hall and there's

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Speaker 1: models and there's music and it's really exciting. There's build

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Speaker 1: up and and then nothing happens. You know, like they

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Speaker 1: don't make this big impact. Sales are not really booming

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. And this is when Jules Founders

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Speaker 1: start thinking about out marijuana the recreational uses is not

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Speaker 1: legal yet in California, but it's becoming clear that it

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Speaker 1: will be. People have been using jewels products for for

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Speaker 1: smoking pot, and you know, they clearly see that there's

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Speaker 1: going to be a market there, big market there, especially

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Speaker 1: if pockets legalized in certain cities around the country. And

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Speaker 1: Chinway really disagrees with that. You know, she has these

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Speaker 1: cultural hesitations. She comes from China where marijuana and pot

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Speaker 1: use is not really accepted. Although there are quite many

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Speaker 1: UM articles or scientific publications talking about the benefit it

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Speaker 1: could do to certain disease or symptoms. I do think

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Speaker 1: the risk is a bit too high compared to the

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Speaker 1: potential benefit it will have. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a scientist, to myself, I would have to be

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Speaker 1: convinced to develop something. What were some of the risks

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Speaker 1: that you were thinking about? UM, I think, unlike nickting Um,

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Speaker 1: it is still impacting your your acute behavior at the moment,

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Speaker 1: So I do worry more people get d U I

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Speaker 1: once this is too convenient. I still see it may

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Speaker 1: be a gateway drug. Of course there's debated on it,

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Speaker 1: but I mean it's just my personal opinion. Yeah, Based

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Speaker 1: on that direction, she decides to quit in and goes

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Speaker 1: back to the farmer world fast fort a year or so,

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Speaker 1: and Jewel becomes a huge hit, and Chinway starts to

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Speaker 1: see it everywhere. Jewel markets itself as an alternative to

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Speaker 1: traditional cigarettes. Jewel is everywhere on city streets, in offices,

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Speaker 1: even in classrooms. You know, everybody's vaping. Jewel has become

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Speaker 1: a verb. And you know, she's really proud of what

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Speaker 1: she's done and frankly surprised. She said that she expected

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Speaker 1: it to be a hit, but not that much of

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Speaker 1: a hit. She didn't think it was gonna really revolutionize

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Speaker 1: um the industry as much as it did. And she

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Speaker 1: starts getting calls from people, you know, old school cigarette companies,

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Speaker 1: new startups saying, hey, do you want to launch another product?

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Speaker 1: You want to come work for us? And then she

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Speaker 1: starts talking to her college friend Thomas, who we met earlier,

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Speaker 1: and he says, why are you going to go work

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Speaker 1: for another company? Like, let's start our own company, and

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Speaker 1: let's start it in China. We'll be right back. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, all these stories start coming out about Jewel,

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Speaker 1: about how teens are starting to get addicted, and Jewels

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Speaker 1: really at the center of all this controversy. The Surgeon General,

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Speaker 1: you know, the America's doctor comes out and says, we

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Speaker 1: must protect our nation's young people from a lifetime of

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Speaker 1: nicotine addiction and associated problems. This is an epidemic. Vaping

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Speaker 1: for teens has become an epidemic. We have been talking

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Speaker 1: about this story all week because so many parents of

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Speaker 1: teens are concerned about this. Let's talk about the teenage

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Speaker 1: brain and how vaping affects it. Our teens more susceptible

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Speaker 1: to addiction. Absolutely they are, and we have to talk

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Speaker 1: about chinwey. You know, she presses ahead. They start this

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Speaker 1: new company called Missed Labs. So um in July, they've

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Speaker 1: released two products, one which is pretty much like a

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Speaker 1: Jewel product, which is called the P series, and one

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Speaker 1: which is a G series, which is a disposable e

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Speaker 1: cigarette for one time use. You know, as it got hot,

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Speaker 1: it also got more controversial. Um, would you make of

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Speaker 1: the controversy around around Jewel. They did make it very

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Speaker 1: specific that it was for adult smoker, but it just

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Speaker 1: because you know, the marketing campaign were on the social

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Speaker 1: networks and then um, young people are the major users

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Speaker 1: on the social networks, so then they got exposed to

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Speaker 1: the information. Right, So it sounds like what you're saying

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Speaker 1: is that you think Jewel made a mistake in marketing

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Speaker 1: on social networks like Instagram, and you think it also

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Speaker 1: made a mistake and making it look appealing to young people.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? I don't think they necessarily made the mistake.

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Speaker 1: It was to me, in my opinion, it was an

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Speaker 1: accident because you know, any new products, they all use

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Speaker 1: social network channels. So and then jewics device. It's never colorful, right,

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Speaker 1: it's also space gray. So I just think it is

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Speaker 1: an unfortunate accident. Um. And then they tried to correct

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Speaker 1: once they seas the problem. But where you upset? I

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Speaker 1: mean like you spent this big part of your career

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Speaker 1: to create this you know, um new device. So like personally,

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Speaker 1: like where you're like, oh, you know, like I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to do that. I think I'm upset in a

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Speaker 1: way that now the whole focus um, not just Jewel,

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Speaker 1: but also all the cigarettes. Right, the whole focus is

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Speaker 1: on how it costs under age by being problem. So

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Speaker 1: there are a huge um smoker community that they actually

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Speaker 1: benefit from the cigarettes, but they're kind of ignored. It's

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Speaker 1: interesting because the wag and We talks about her startup

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Speaker 1: does seem to be very much in recognition of all

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Speaker 1: of the criticism that's been lodged against Jewel. She talks

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Speaker 1: about how miss isn't going to sell any of these

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Speaker 1: sweet dessert like flavors. She talks about how they're designing

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Speaker 1: it in this really understated way, in this true way,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, she's completely unwilling to criticize Jewel.

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Speaker 1: Would you make of that? You know, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that she sees it as her fault. You know, you

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Speaker 1: would think, you know, I created this monster of a

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Speaker 1: product that has hooked a generation of kids on nicotine

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Speaker 1: addicted them, And she doesn't see that as as something

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Speaker 1: that she did. You know, in her mind, she sees

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Speaker 1: a product that she created to help people stop smoking.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if she really feels that sense

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Speaker 1: of responsibility or anything like that. And it sounds like

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Speaker 1: what she wants to do in future iterations of their

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Speaker 1: product would further separate them from Jewel. Yeah, So right

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Speaker 1: now with the current products that they pushed out this summer,

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Speaker 1: they're very similar to Jewel. I think that they really

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Speaker 1: tried to solve some of the low hanging fruit problems,

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Speaker 1: like the colors, the pretty flavors, things that they could

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Speaker 1: address pretty quickly with the design. I think what she's

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Speaker 1: really passed about is the next iteration of these formulations,

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Speaker 1: the chemical kind of formulations that would bring you the

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Speaker 1: same kind of buzz, the same kind of nicotine hit,

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Speaker 1: but with a lot less nicotine, and that way it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be as addictive as they currently are now. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the latest development is the mysterious vaping related lung disease

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Speaker 1: that's killed more than twenty people and has made more

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Speaker 1: than a thousand people sick. She seemed unfazed by all

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Speaker 1: of that too. Would you make of her response? So

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Speaker 1: clearly she had looked into it, but because it's inconclusive

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Speaker 1: that she wouldn't kind of take a stand either way,

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Speaker 1: And she did bring up that of one of the

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Speaker 1: theories is that it has to do with th HC

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Speaker 1: and cannabis oils and you know, really linking it to

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Speaker 1: the marijuana that she's against in in the first place.

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Speaker 1: But there wasn't any sense of for more or worry

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Speaker 1: or any of those kind of you know, emotions that

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Speaker 1: you'd expect to have from someone who's so close us

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Speaker 1: um to the vaping industry. As we were wrapping up

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Speaker 1: our interview, I asked Hinway if she could give us

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Speaker 1: a product sample so I could compare it to jewel

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Speaker 1: I've smoked maybe twice in my life before, and I

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Speaker 1: guess my question was if I were to puff on

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Speaker 1: miss E cigarette, would I be less likely to want

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Speaker 1: to do it again compared with puffing on a Jewely cigarette.

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Speaker 1: Since i'ment on smoker, if I tried one of your cigarettes,

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Speaker 1: and if I tried a jewel E cigarette, do you

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Speaker 1: think I would find your product the most revolting? Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Pallette Palette theres just so you know,

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Speaker 1: individual so personnel, so I I really don't know if

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Speaker 1: I can comment, But we don't have a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of dessert flavor, so you might find it growth that.

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Speaker 1: And I went home and I looked up where I

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Speaker 1: could buy a Jewelry cigarette, and then I popped into

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Speaker 1: a seven eleven the next day to buy the device,

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Speaker 1: and as the flavor pod, I appropriately got carded Um,

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Speaker 1: and then they didn't have any of the fruity flavors.

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Speaker 1: I got the Virginia tobacco pod and then Chilly You,

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Speaker 1: and I walked outside to try it. My wife thought

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Speaker 1: this was such a bad idea. She tried to talk why.

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Speaker 1: I think she was worried that it would get me addicted. You. First,

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Speaker 1: I took out the sample we got from Miss Labs.

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Speaker 1: It took us a minute to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: set it up and take this out the other way.

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Speaker 1: I think this way. I put in the Chinese tobacco

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Speaker 1: flavor pod. Okay, all right, what do I do? I

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Speaker 1: think to pull it and then I even hell and

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Speaker 1: I gave it a puff. What was it? Gross? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's certainly not something that I would proactively do.

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Speaker 1: I think to try another one. Oh it's terrible. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. Okay, alright, wow, that really hurts. It feels

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Speaker 1: like there's small pieces of glass um ripping out my throat.

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Speaker 1: That does not sound like something that I would want. Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's try the jewel one. And then I

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Speaker 1: tried the Jewel device with the Virginia Tobacco Flavor pod.

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Speaker 1: This one had the same nicotine concentration as the miss

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Speaker 1: product of five percent nicotine. Okay, all right, that looked worse,

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Speaker 1: are you okay? Yeah? Yeah, I mean they're both disgusting.

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Speaker 1: Do you taste the difference? I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. They birth both really hurt my throat. So, Shelly,

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Speaker 1: I think we set out on this visit with quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of skepticism that a different East cigarette was

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Speaker 1: in fact the answer to this current vaporing crisis. What's

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Speaker 1: your overall take? It seems just nuts right now to

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Speaker 1: launch an East cigarette company with this like regulatory tempest,

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Speaker 1: you know, just kind of overtaking the industry. You have

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Speaker 1: Jewel and the cross hairs, you have the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world regulators looking into it. You have all these

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Speaker 1: kids that are smoking. It kind of seems like the

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Speaker 1: whole world is against these cigarettes. You know, why would

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Speaker 1: you start an e cigarette company right now? You know?

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Speaker 1: I did find her very sincere, though um in her

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Speaker 1: passion to get smokers to switch to I guess, like

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Speaker 1: the lesser of two evils, And it was also really

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Speaker 1: sympathetic to her argument that nicotine patches and nicotine gum

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Speaker 1: just doesn't do enough for smokers. To get them the switch.

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Speaker 1: That's what I thought was one of the most interesting

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Speaker 1: things of everything that she had to say, which was

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Speaker 1: that like, hey, we tried these patches and these in

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Speaker 1: this gum and it didn't really work. People just didn't

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Speaker 1: want it. They wanted that high. Going back to our

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Speaker 1: puff test earlier, as a non smoker, I did find

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Speaker 1: mislabs e cigarettes very gross and very painful. It maybe

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Speaker 1: never want to do it again. But I felt the

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Speaker 1: exact same way about Jewel too um equally gross, equally painful.

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Speaker 1: And I guess even then, tons of non smokers have

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Speaker 1: gotten addicted through Jewel, So I'm not sure that missed,

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Speaker 1: at least in its current iteration, is making it any

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Speaker 1: less likely for non smokers to get hooked. I think

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Speaker 1: the promise will come in its next iteration if the scientist,

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Speaker 1: if Chinway, is able to get the next breakthrough that

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Speaker 1: she's hoping, which is to deliver the same kind of

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Speaker 1: hit with a much lower nicotine dose that won't get

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Speaker 1: people addicted. But it's also going to have to take

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Speaker 1: some regulation. I mean, this was the wild West for

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Speaker 1: for these companies, and so hopefully with more regulation, you know,

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Speaker 1: you will have kind of these lines that you can

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Speaker 1: stay in UM and you know, come up with some

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Speaker 1: some more innovation, some more science behind it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: create that cigarette that really does make people stop smoking

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Speaker 1: regular cigarettes. Decrupted is produced by me Akito, Sean Wyn

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Speaker 1: and Ethan Brooks and then he Wit. Contribut did reporting.

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Speaker 1: Our story editor is Anne vander May. Francesca Levie is

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Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you next week.

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Speaker 1: M