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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. A judge has

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Speaker 1: ordered a temporary halt to deportations of about migrant families

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Speaker 1: who were separated during the border crossing crackdown. The A

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Speaker 1: C l You told Judge Denis Sobral yesterday that there

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Speaker 1: were rumors the Trump administration was planning immediate mass deportations

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Speaker 1: from migrant parents after they're reunited with their children. Here's

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Speaker 1: a C A A A C l U lawyer league

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Speaker 1: learned outside the courthouse after the order was issued. We're

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Speaker 1: extremely pleased the government has said now that they're going

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Speaker 1: to get the other reunifications done by I think the

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Speaker 1: judge is going to hold them to it. The commander,

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Speaker 1: Comander White was here overseeing the process, said it's going

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Speaker 1: to get done. We're hopeful it's going to get done.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is Rick Sue, an immigration law expert and

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Speaker 1: a professor at the University of Buffalo School of Law.

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Speaker 1: Rick first as far as the immediate deportations following reunification,

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Speaker 1: is the government within the law in doing that? Uh

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Speaker 1: this is the problem. Uh So, essentially, what the a

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Speaker 1: c o U was concerned about was that the government

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Speaker 1: was going to go away from and back out of

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Speaker 1: a deal that they had struck the week before with

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Speaker 1: regard to how to reunify these families as still comply

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Speaker 1: with the Florist agreement. And there was actually a very

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Speaker 1: surprising order last week in which is the government and

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Speaker 1: the a CEO agreed that the parents should have a

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Speaker 1: choice of whether to keep their kids with them or

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Speaker 1: to potentially keep leave their kids behind so that they

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Speaker 1: can provide uh sort of their pursue their asylum application.

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Speaker 1: The problem with the deportation is of the a c

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Speaker 1: U fears that they're using the parents and the temptation

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Speaker 1: of reunification to urge them to abandon their aims before

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Speaker 1: they have the time to discuss whether the children's asylum

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Speaker 1: claim should be continued to be pursued. So in other words,

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Speaker 1: it's it's if they follow that, then they are within

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Speaker 1: the law in deeport in deporting um these immigrant families. Well,

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Speaker 1: the problem with the law here is that there was

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Speaker 1: a agreement before that these individuals, the parents and the children,

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Speaker 1: should have time to consult about what they choose to

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Speaker 1: do before that they're deported or they choose to remain

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Speaker 1: in the United States and detention, they can also do

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Speaker 1: that as well. Uh, the fear here is that they

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Speaker 1: they support immediately the time for this consultation wouldn't happen,

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Speaker 1: and essentially the parents and the children would be forced

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Speaker 1: to abandon their asylum claim. So why would what is

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Speaker 1: there more of a hope if you leave your child

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Speaker 1: behind that the child is going to get asylum when

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't there may be. Essentially what's going on now

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Speaker 1: is that because the children and the parents are separated,

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Speaker 1: both of them have separate lawyers and are pursuing claims

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Speaker 1: on their own. That's why we had that strange situation

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Speaker 1: last week and in which you know, one year old

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Speaker 1: were being brought into court to sort of pursue their

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Speaker 1: own claim. Essentially, what the c ou want to say

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Speaker 1: is that for these individuals to actually have time to

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Speaker 1: discuss their claims is the only way to vindicate the rights.

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Speaker 1: What the fear is now is that the government maybe

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Speaker 1: sort of using reunification as a way of convincing parents

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Speaker 1: before they even talk to their kids and potentially even

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Speaker 1: looking at the claims that might be available to just

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Speaker 1: agree to be removed abandoned their claim in order to

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Speaker 1: be reunited. And there's always been a fear that this

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Speaker 1: was a purpose all along. Did Is there any proof

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Speaker 1: that that has happened? Uh, there is. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of rumors that's been that that this is going on.

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Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be any proof, but it seems

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Speaker 1: like the court here is concerned enough that this might

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Speaker 1: be going on or may happen to sort of implement

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Speaker 1: this particular temporary injunction with regard to deportations. Certainly, if

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Speaker 1: it wasn't going on, then the government shouldn't be concerned

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Speaker 1: about this particular junction, shouldn't be affecting anything that they're

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Speaker 1: ready not doing. Uh. Though the government has said that

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Speaker 1: they are going to appeal this, so uh, it may

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Speaker 1: be that the rumors have some truth to them. Now,

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Speaker 1: we've talked before about the all the testing and research

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Speaker 1: that the government was doing before they reunited family parents

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Speaker 1: with their children, including DNA testing, and according to some

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Speaker 1: of the testimony there, they have weeded out some adults

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Speaker 1: in this vetting process who had criminal histories that included

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Speaker 1: rape and kidnapping. What do you know about that? So

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Speaker 1: right now there seems to be at least the government

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Speaker 1: has said that that is a case. So my understanding

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Speaker 1: is that's a small number of the UH parents have

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Speaker 1: been separated from the children. I haven't seen any specific

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Speaker 1: details about who these individuals are, and it's likely that

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Speaker 1: it will be a while before those details come out.

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Speaker 1: If ever, given that there is concerns about privacy and

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Speaker 1: confidentiality here now, the parents of sevente children still have

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Speaker 1: not been identified. Might be that the parents were already

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Speaker 1: sent back. It could definitely be UH. One of the

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Speaker 1: problems when they separated the children from their parents is

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Speaker 1: that they were also sent to two different bureocracies. And

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Speaker 1: with all the hearings before Judge so Brawl about this reunification, UH,

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Speaker 1: seems to be a picture emerging that there wasn't a

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Speaker 1: lot of planning that went into it. UM So again,

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Speaker 1: it would be probably a lot of beer we figure

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Speaker 1: out exactly what happened to those um again if ever,

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Speaker 1: but certainly suggests that there was some problems with the

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Speaker 1: coordination between the two agencies here. Overall, the judge voiced

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Speaker 1: great confidence with the government's reunification plan, though didn't he

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Speaker 1: he did, And a lot of it is actually with

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Speaker 1: regard to JHS and they I think they do have

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Speaker 1: the children's best interests in mind and all working very

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Speaker 1: hard with regard to this. But again, coordinating with DHS

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, especially ICE UH seems to have

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Speaker 1: been part of the problem. And there also seems to

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Speaker 1: be a slight sort of policy disagreement which is coming

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Speaker 1: up with a threat at deportation. I think there is

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Speaker 1: still a strong segment on DHS that is very inclined

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Speaker 1: to not given too much and still have a de

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Speaker 1: turn effect with regard to future entrance. So rick do

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Speaker 1: we know have there been any hearing so far any

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Speaker 1: of these immigrants who have been separated from their children

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Speaker 1: or any of them getting um you know, the ability

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Speaker 1: to stay here. Uh So, there has actually been some

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Speaker 1: other cases has been happening around the sides and some

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Speaker 1: decisions made by the government to release some of these individuals.

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Speaker 1: Um So, there was actually a recent case and this

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Speaker 1: is all going to sort of come to a head

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Speaker 1: sooner or later by Judge Bolton in Connecticut where he

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Speaker 1: actually ruled in the favor of the children and actually

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Speaker 1: the government agreed to release the parents to the children.

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Speaker 1: This is something that they resisted in the past. So

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Speaker 1: we'll see where this goes in terms of future determinations.

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Speaker 1: Thus far, they have not been willing to bring the

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Speaker 1: parents to the children. What they've been trying to do

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Speaker 1: is bring the children into the parents the tension facilities. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that is something that the a c O. You

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Speaker 1: wants to say that the parents should have a choice about.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of asylum claims from this group

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Speaker 1: that I heard about, you know, not being safe in

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Speaker 1: their country because of gangs and violence from gangs. Is

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Speaker 1: that being accepted as a reason for asylum. So this

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Speaker 1: is something that has to be worked out. And this

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Speaker 1: is something interesting with all the discussion about family separation

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Speaker 1: and what to do if we were to reunify them. Uh,

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Speaker 1: In some ways, the bigger picture, the substance of asylum

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Speaker 1: came has kind of been left on the side of

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Speaker 1: the table. Right. Um, we haven't really looked at those

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Speaker 1: particular claims of these particular individuals as deeply. Now just

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Speaker 1: Sessions has released has sort of made a decision that

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Speaker 1: seemed to limit these claims. How that's going to play out, however,

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Speaker 1: I think is waiting to be seen. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's what a lot of these parents and children and

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Speaker 1: their advocates want to see happen. Is that want to

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Speaker 1: see this play out as opposed to being forced to

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Speaker 1: accept a deportation in order to reunify with their parents

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Speaker 1: and children. Still a lot of hazy instances here, and

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Speaker 1: we'll have to and see how the court's rule. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much, Rick, that's Rick Sue. He's professor at the

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Speaker 1: University the Buffalo School of Law. Sinclair's three point nine

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Speaker 1: billion dollar acquisition of Tribunes TV stations was expected to

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Speaker 1: close by early August, but now it may not close

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Speaker 1: at all, and it's the FCC chairman who has thrown

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Speaker 1: a wrench into the deal. On Monday, a jet Pie

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Speaker 1: question the legality of the deal, saying he has serious

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Speaker 1: concerns about Sinclair's controversial plan to sell TV stations in

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Speaker 1: order to meet ownership limits. Joining me is Matthew Shettlehelm

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg intelligence litigation analyst. So the FCC is sending the

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Speaker 1: issues to an administrative judge for hearing. How much of

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Speaker 1: a setback is that for Sinclair and the deal. This

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Speaker 1: really is a major setback for the deal. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: the FEC when it when it has issues with a

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Speaker 1: transaction like this, it it's not its practice to outright

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Speaker 1: deny it, it's to effectively kill it with process by

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Speaker 1: by sending it to an administrative hearing that no company

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Speaker 1: could could you know, practically endure, and so you could

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Speaker 1: you could face an administrative judge looking at these issues

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Speaker 1: for six to nine months, complete with discovery from your opposition,

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Speaker 1: your foes digging into to your practices, cross examination, and

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Speaker 1: then the appeal goes to the Media Bureau at the FCC,

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Speaker 1: and then another appeal to still at the FCC. It's

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Speaker 1: process after process, and there's no way you can get

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Speaker 1: all that done and still you know, want to go

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Speaker 1: go ahead with your deal. So a number of big

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Speaker 1: transactions have been killed by the FCC designating these things

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Speaker 1: for hearing and and so that's that's looks like the

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Speaker 1: way it's going here at the FCC as well. So

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Speaker 1: Sinclair said it's prepared to resolve any perceived issues. So

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Speaker 1: that's hopeful. That's right. They're clearly not giving up yet

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Speaker 1: and there there may be ways around. I don't expect

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Speaker 1: Sinclair to be willing to go through all that process,

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Speaker 1: and so so what they may do in dead is say, Okay, FCC,

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Speaker 1: you're concerned about our divestitures of of three or four

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Speaker 1: of these stations. You don't like who we're giving them to.

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Speaker 1: Let us rework that will fix that, and then you

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Speaker 1: can put that out for comment. We can we can

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Speaker 1: work with that. Let us address your concerns. Aside from

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Speaker 1: all that process, I expect that's the next move. I

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Speaker 1: don't think this necessarily is the end of the road

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Speaker 1: for Sinclair Tribune. It's a very strong signal from a

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Speaker 1: jeep Pie that he's he's not going to allow just

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Speaker 1: anything despite his his general sympathy. I think to to

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Speaker 1: Sinclair's position, was this move a surprise coming from Pie?

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Speaker 1: It really was, because, uh, in all his time as

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Speaker 1: as as a commissioner at the FCC, he's he's been

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Speaker 1: a big backer of the broadcasters and a really a

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Speaker 1: big advocate for the position that these rules the FEC

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Speaker 1: has in place are extremely out of date and and

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Speaker 1: really not fair. And so there's no question Sinclair came

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Speaker 1: into this with a big advantage it had a Republican

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Speaker 1: controlled FCC that was very likely to view this favorably.

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Speaker 1: I think it may have just been a little too

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Speaker 1: aggressive in pushing for every last advantage and every last

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Speaker 1: market and and and this is a jeep pie standing

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Speaker 1: up and saying no, this goes too far. Go into

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Speaker 1: a little more of the specifics about what he found

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Speaker 1: to be a problem. Sure, so, so this is really

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Speaker 1: driven by the national ownership cap. There, the FEC has

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Speaker 1: a role that says you can only reach thirty nine

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Speaker 1: percent of of the US population. When Sinclair announced this deal,

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Speaker 1: it reached seventy two percent. Big problems from the start.

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Speaker 1: The FEC didn't change the math, restored this discount that

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Speaker 1: that then all of a sudden, made Sinclair much closer.

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Speaker 1: It was only reaching forty five percent of the US.

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Speaker 1: The differences in that last six percent. Sinclair proposed to

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Speaker 1: divest stations in Dallas, Houston, and Chicago to try to

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Speaker 1: get down to that last but it's sent them. It

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Speaker 1: proposed to divest those those stations to companies with very

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Speaker 1: close ties to Sinclair itself. So you had uh foes

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Speaker 1: of the deal come into the docket and say, well,

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Speaker 1: these are not real real divestitures. These are sham transactions

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Speaker 1: that they are just holding the licenses and as soon

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Speaker 1: as they can, they're going to give them right back

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Speaker 1: to Sinclair. This is this. You can't allow that to happen. Now,

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Speaker 1: the FCC, you mentioned this, the what's called let me

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Speaker 1: see the UHF discount, and the fccas Inspector General, is

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Speaker 1: said to be investigating whether a Pie improperly pushed for

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Speaker 1: rule changes to help clear the way for Sinclair's tribune bid,

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Speaker 1: which Pie denies. Also, there is a court that's investigating.

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Speaker 1: So how does that all play? So that's just a

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Speaker 1: whole another level of complication for the deal. We we're

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Speaker 1: waiting right now for a decision from the d C

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Speaker 1: Circuit in a case that was argued April uh to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: when when the FCC changed the math, it restored this

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Speaker 1: UHF discount to change how you calculate that? Was that lawful?

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Speaker 1: Because the FCC concedes that that actually the UHF discount

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Speaker 1: is obsolete. UH, it doesn't make sense anymore. And so

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Speaker 1: the judge, three judges and courts stared them down into

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Speaker 1: are you serious that you're really trying to restore an

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Speaker 1: obsolete rule? The FCC had a really tough time with

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Speaker 1: that argument. So we're waiting for that decision, which could come,

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Speaker 1: you know, I expected sometime in August. And so if

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Speaker 1: that comes, Sinclair has a whole another host of issues

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Speaker 1: to deal with. Did did Sinclair has been criticized for

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Speaker 1: requiring its stations to carry conservative content, etcetera, etcetera. Did

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Speaker 1: that play into this at all? Only in the sense

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Speaker 1: that that that Sinclair, by allowing this process to drag

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Speaker 1: out for so long, it's allowed this sort of political

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Speaker 1: noise to to build up and and and it's the

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Speaker 1: volume has grown so loud that that I think it

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Speaker 1: even someone sympathetic to to Sinclair's position, like a gee Pie,

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Speaker 1: has to start to listen to it. But but technically, no,

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Speaker 1: this is you know, that's a that's a sort of

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Speaker 1: a side point, and that's not what's really drove driving

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Speaker 1: a g pie at this point. And just we have

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Speaker 1: about forty five seconds here, But I understand that the

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Speaker 1: language was very harsh a jeep pies language in this

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Speaker 1: in this order or announcement. Sure, sure, yeah. And one

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Speaker 1: of the real things that stood out to me that

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Speaker 1: I'll be watching for if the FEC makes this decision.

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Speaker 1: Is the idea that that some suggested yesterday that the

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Speaker 1: FEC might might say that that Sinclair actually made misrepresentations

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Speaker 1: to the FCC or or lacked candor, and that's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a major offense at the FEC that could jeopardize

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Speaker 1: Sinclair on a number of fronts going forward. This has

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Speaker 1: turned out to be so interesting. Thank you so much, Matthew.

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Speaker 1: That's Matthew Shettonhelm, Bloomberg Intelligence litigation analyst. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg All podcasts. You can subscribe and listen

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Speaker 1: to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud and on Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: m