1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: My thought was, like I loved Gary, I thought I 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 2: was his favorite. Why didn't he pick me when he 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: was fixated on you? It was? 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 3: It was scary. I think he was dangerous. 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 2: Some girls knew it, they weren't given the power to 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: be heard about it. When Gary was mad, it was scary. 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. I've 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 19 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. This 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: story is particularly upsetting to me because I have children 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: and they have coaches, coaches that we really trust. I 22 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: think that as a parent, you want to trust other 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: adults to have your kid's best interested at heart, and 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: sometimes it's just not the case. That's what happened here. 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: Piper's story is very personal and she's very introspective. It's 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: a really good story and a cautionary tale. 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: I'm Piper Weiss. 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: I'm the author of the memoir You All Grow Up 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 2: and Leave Me, which is a mix of investigative crime 30 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: reporting and coming of age narrative. 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: And this is a memoir slash true crime. So you're 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: going to tell us the story of someone who was 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: really important in your life. But clearly we know this 34 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: is not going to go very well because it is 35 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: true crime. 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. I didn't initially intend for this to be 37 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: a memoir. It just came out that way because it 38 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 2: was such a personal story to me, and yet I 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: wasn't directly involved in the crime. I was almost like 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: a child bystander, and I didn't really know where I 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: fit in this story until I investigated it and wrote 42 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: through it and figured out why it still mattered to me, 43 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: which is I think a thing for anyone who writes 44 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: true crime. Sometime in the process you realize, wait, why 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: am I obsessed with this? 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 3: What does this mean to me? 47 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: The reporting process became I turned it in on myself, 48 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: you know, and I realized that there was a lot 49 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: to explore inside me and maybe inside you know, the 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: experience of a lot of girls that have a voice 51 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 2: and were in a similar experience and had a very 52 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: kind of confused take on it years later. It's not 53 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 2: as clear cut as you think. When you're being abused 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: by someone in power and you're a young girl, Really 55 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: good parents can be in the room and not realize 56 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: that it's happening. And he was a little bit tragic 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: as much as he was kind of delightful, but when 58 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: he fixated on a student, he was not only really unhealthy, 59 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 2: but he was totally dangerous. So it starts for me 60 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: in the fall of nineteen ninety two, fourteen years old, 61 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: living on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. I go 62 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: to an elite all girls school, just starting ninth grade. 63 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: There's pressure on all of us to get into college, 64 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: and we have to start prepping for everything from SATs 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: to getting on varsity teams. Meanwhile, there's a lot of 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: social pressure that I kind of was experiencing because I 67 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: was a bit of a late bloomer and my friends. 68 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: They were socializing with boys from other schools, and it 69 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: felt like they were advancing faster than I could keep 70 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: up with, just in terms of even being friends with 71 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: the opposite sex. 72 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 4: They were already dating and you weren't even at that point. 73 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't even know if they were already dating. 74 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: The boys liked them, they didn't like me, and I 75 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: was afraid that that they would go away if I 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: couldn't keep up with the boys liking me. But I 77 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: remember this time growing up in the city. There were 78 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: just like a lot of these prep school boys had 79 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: a lot to prove, and they were really kind of 80 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: shitty to girls, and it was something you kind of 81 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: giggled off, you know, and it was a lot of 82 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: just like sodoma, dick bitch, and we would be like 83 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: excited about it because you were getting attention, because you're 84 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: getting attention. So there's just like all these mixed messages. Meanwhile, 85 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: this is set against tree internet, frothy current affair era 86 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: of the media that was really hyper focused in New York, 87 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: that era of true crime where you had Long Island Lolita, 88 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 2: the Preppy Murders had happened. So there was a lot 89 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: of this idea of danger and we were taking like 90 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: self defense in pe class because there was this constant 91 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: thing of date rape was a concept being debated even 92 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: and at the same time there was like a big 93 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: child abuse case with Joel Steinberg. 94 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 4: You and your friends are sort of on a word 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 4: at this time. 96 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 3: Period completely completely. 97 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: We knew that our bodies were changing and that we 98 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: were considered prey everywhere we went, and yet at the 99 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: same time we wanted to be really independent and we 100 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: wanted to be really grown up. What happens is there's 101 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 2: this tennis coach who is the most coveted tennis coach 102 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: of this little rich kid bubble, and his name was 103 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: Gary Walynski. I had always played tennis. It was kind 104 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: of just something as I have a lot of theories 105 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: on a Jewish girl whose parents grew up in Queen's 106 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: you know, and that moved to Manhattan. There was kind 107 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: of this thing where, you know, they weren't allowed to 108 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 2: go to tennis clubs when they grew up, and now 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 2: they had figured out, from just a certain amount of 110 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: hard work, how to get their kids into a better life, 111 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: which was just kind of like old money, wasp beer, 112 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: cool status. It was a total status thing. So I 113 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: was raised kind of playing tennis. It was like a 114 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: thing you did. But Gary was the coach you wanted 115 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: to have and I didn't care. You know, sure, I 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: guess if he's going to get me on the tennis 117 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: team so I can get into college. And then I 118 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: met Gary, and Gary was my favorite adult. He was 119 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: a Willy Wonka character where he literally just had candy everywhere, 120 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: just like coming out of his ears. He would drive 121 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: you to the tennis court in a car, which was 122 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: kind of a novelty because nobody had cars as teenagers 123 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: in Manhattan, so it wasn't like an official school bus. 124 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 2: It was like this cool fifty six year old man 125 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 2: who acted like a teenager driving you in his car 126 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: and you listen to, you know, like the cool radio station. 127 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: And he had mixtapes and there was always Big League 128 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: two and Licorice. So the opposite of your parents is 129 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: what it's totally totally It was just freedom time and 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: he was really fun on the courts. Instead of it 131 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: being a really competitive environment on the courts, he made 132 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: it really fun. He changed the rules all the time 133 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: of the game, so it never felt like you were 134 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: playing the same game and just trying to hone your 135 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: backhand or forehand. He made these t shirts with his 136 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: cartoon likeness on it he sent for everyone Valentines. 137 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: He really knew how to. 138 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: Win teenagers, especially teen girls over and almost have us 139 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 2: not compete for his attention, but definitely vi for it. 140 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: And shortly after I started playing with him, he called 141 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: my mom. And at this point, I'm doing really bad 142 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: in school. I feel like I'm doing bad socially, whatever 143 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: that means. I feel like a kind of an outsider, 144 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: an ugly duckling, which I think a lot of people 145 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: feel at that age. And this man, who kind of 146 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,239 Speaker 2: has a certain cachet and power in this world, calls 147 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: my mom and is like, your daughter, she may be 148 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: really little, but she's really good at tennis, and I 149 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: think she's special and has potential, and I will work 150 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: with her a second day a week for free, just 151 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: because I want her to get on the tennis team. 152 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: That must have felt really good. 153 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: It was amazing, and I loved hanging out with Gary. 154 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: Those days were on Saturdays, so that meant that afterwards 155 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: we would go out to eat, we could go see 156 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: a movie, have quality time just as friends. 157 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: I always played with. 158 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: Him with maybe one or two other people, so I 159 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: knew he taught so many girls throughout the city. He 160 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: was also a tennis coach at the varsity team at 161 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: the other girls school across the street from me, so 162 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: he had a lot of students. But you always felt 163 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: like you were one of two with him. You felt special. 164 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: The months go by and I kind of feel like 165 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: I'm getting my stride and a little bit of Cammon. 166 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: But inside didn't know that I could have through a 167 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 2: sport too, which is not me. I was writing moody, 168 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: embarrassing poetry usually. Meanwhile, what I didn't know is that 169 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: Gary did have obsessions with his students, and one in particular. 170 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 3: She was a little bit older. She was seventeen. 171 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: She was one of his best students, was nationally ranked, 172 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 2: which was a big deal at the time. She was 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: really uncomfortable with how close he was getting to her 174 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: and how he crossed lines. Gary was the kind of 175 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: guy in the community that was Uncle Gary. You know, 176 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: someone's mom invited him for Thanksgiving dinner because he didn't 177 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: have somewhere to go. Someone else's mom had him come 178 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: to the Hamptons for a week because he didn't have 179 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: somewhere to go. There was this built in trust that 180 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: parents had for this guy. 181 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 4: What is his personal life like? 182 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 2: So he grew up in Long Island. His parents divorced 183 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: when he was about twelve. There's not much about that time, 184 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: but I imagine it was traumatizing. It was the mid fifties, 185 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: and he stayed with his father as opposed to his mother, 186 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: And when people would ask him in high school about 187 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: his mother, he would say that she's dead, when in 188 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: fact she lived in the next town. He started college, 189 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: he dropped out, and then through the seventies he started 190 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: to build up his career as a tennis coach. And 191 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: that was at the detriment of the one serious relationship 192 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: he had with a high school sweetheart that ended in divorce. 193 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: That for six months, he seemed to focus solely on 194 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: being this coach of tennis for adults, first coaching these 195 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: romantic singles mixers in the swing in seventies and also 196 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: working up in the cat skills. He was also on 197 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: a game show called to Tell the Truth because he 198 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: was famous for teaching tennis on roller skates. The more 199 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: gimmicks he did through the seventh and early eighties, he 200 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: started to realize gimmicks not only worked, they got the 201 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: attention of parents and their kids. So he started to 202 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: teach kids more, and he started to teach with these girls' 203 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: summer camps, and that's where it seems there's a record 204 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: of him starting to have these unhealthy obsessions with teenage girls. 205 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: He was fired from one of these camps for inappropriate behavior. 206 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: But again, this was a period of time where there 207 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: wasn't social media. 208 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: It wasn't a real way to spread the word unless 209 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: it was parents exactly. 210 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: The laws were different, and my sense that I got 211 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: goot really close to the line, but never overtly crossed 212 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: it as far as we knew at the time. So 213 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: he continued as a coach until nineteen eighty eight. He's 214 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: still single. I guess he's been dating here and there. 215 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: But friends that I spoke to that knew him at 216 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 2: the time, and also fellow coaches noticed that and there 217 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: were things that were not quite right with him. He 218 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: snapped a lot, and for no particular reasons. 219 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 4: Described that what would happen. 220 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: He would be on the courts coaching adults, everyone's having 221 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: a great time, and then he would start making fun 222 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: of one person and isolating them and making everyone laugh 223 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: at that person until that person had to walk off 224 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: the court because they were so upset. It seemed unprompted, 225 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: it seemed random. There were other accounts of him sharing 226 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: his discontent that seemed disproportionate to the issue, like he 227 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: really hated certain men that worked at some of the 228 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: different clubs that he worked at in a way that 229 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: made one friend uncomfortable. So he was actually fired from 230 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: multiple places and eventually from this summer camp. But things 231 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: really came to a head for him in nineteen eighty 232 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: eight when he was arrested for the first time for 233 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: his bizarre behavior. He was stalking two boys he'd never 234 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: met before at age ten and eleven, at a bus 235 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: stop in Manhattan on their way to school every morning. 236 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: Dressed in a black leather mask and black spandex. He 237 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 2: would stand first, stand across the street and just film 238 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: them waiting at their bus stop, and each day he 239 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: would get physically closer and closer that how terrifying, terrifying, 240 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: and then he would actually just mimic their moves, so 241 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: he was almost like a pantomime, and the kids just 242 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: kind of ignored him, and it was like eighties New York, 243 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: a weird, wild time in the city. 244 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: And you're taught by your parents to just avert your eyes, 245 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: ignore them, you know, don't walk. 246 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: Away to exact, don't engage, don't engage. And also adults 247 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: are the bosses, you know, even if they're kind of wacky. 248 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 2: And eventually, after a month, he tries to grab one 249 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: of the boys as he's getting on the bus, so 250 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: the boy tells his older brother, so her brother takes 251 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: him to the police. The next day, the police come 252 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: with him to the bus stop and once again Gary's there, 253 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: and he's there with his camera in his costume, and 254 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: the police pull him over and arrest him, and they 255 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: open the trunk of his car. They find hundreds of 256 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: tapes of these boys day after day that he's been stalking, 257 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: as well as a third victim, a little girl who 258 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: had no idea that he was following her every day. 259 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: This happens several years before he becomes your coach. 260 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: That's right, so five years before he becomes my coach, 261 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: he is arrested for stalking these children, and because it's 262 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: not a felony at the time to stalk a child, 263 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: he is given six months mandatory therapy, and it's not 264 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: on any kind of permanent record. 265 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: Is this a psychotic break? I mean, what do you 266 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: think that was? Because that is unusual behavior when he 267 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: is trying to snatch a kid and the kid clearly 268 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: looks alarmed, and he comes back the next day and 269 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: tries to do the same thing in the outfit. Yeah, 270 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that is a an amount of, you know, 271 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: being unaware of society's laws, right, So what do you think. 272 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 4: That might have been? 273 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: This is why I initially was so interested in him, 274 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: is because first of all, he was a man who 275 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: liked costumes, whether it was to delight children or to 276 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: frighten them. He knew the power of playing a character. 277 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: I think it was his method of control, especially with children. 278 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: I do think there were psychotic breaks in his life, 279 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 2: and the biggest one that happened we'll get to that 280 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: were definitely kind of under the surface for a while, 281 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: But I also got the sense from him that it 282 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: was always under the surface. So the side of Gary 283 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: that I knew and loved wore wigs and two two's 284 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: and roller skates, not black leather masks, but groucho marks masks, 285 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: kind of the same difference in a weird way. Knew 286 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: it had some kind of effect on kids. 287 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: And your parents did not seem alarmed by any of 288 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: his kind of hygiene, so they just thought he was 289 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: a fun coach and was getting results from you. 290 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: I loved him. We knew most of his students. They 291 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: went to school with me. My mother was friends with 292 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: their mothers. He had a knack for charming moms. He 293 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: would call the moms on the phone and give progress reports. 294 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: He almost was like a Gabby ant. He could just 295 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: shoot the shit with moms as well as he could 296 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: with teenage girls. 297 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: That was his element. 298 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: And I've got to say, I'm just like I had 299 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: very protective parents, and I was in the most protective world. 300 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: So part of why I think this story is interesting 301 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: is that if it could happen in this kind of 302 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: such a closely guarded community that had all the money 303 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: and had all the trappings of protection, it can happen anywhere. 304 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: It can happen anywhere, And a lot of times were 305 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: fostering it without realizing it, kind of creating this word 306 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: of mouth power dynamic with these members of the community 307 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: that kind of wiggle their way in and become. 308 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 4: The go to person it's a lot of power. 309 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: It is a lot of power, and those are textbook 310 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: I mean, not that this is true of all people, 311 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: but being an upstanding member of the community is a 312 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 2: very savvy way to be an abuser in the community. 313 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: You know, that's hey, you get your foothold in. So meanwhile, 314 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: I'm having a great time with him. There's this weird 315 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: memory that I have of going to an erotic bakery 316 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: with him, But he didn't say anything. It was just 317 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: we were standing in the bakery and there were penises everywhere, 318 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: and he was talking to the counter person like you 319 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: knew her, and it was just like he was running 320 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: an errand. And I was laughing because I thought I 321 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: was the only one that could see the penises. 322 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 3: That's how old I was. 323 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 2: The chocolate penis is where I was just giddy over it, 324 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: but couldn't say anything to him, and he was like, what, 325 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 2: what's so funny. 326 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 3: A few weeks later, now now we're into April. 327 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 4: Wait, did you tell your parents about this erotic bakery? 328 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: No, not only did I not tell my parents, I 329 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: actually only completely forgot about it until I was The 330 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: memory is a crazy thing, until I started obsessively researching 331 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: this story and I had this memory, this can't be 332 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: and of course this was the nineties in Manhattan. I 333 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: remember specifically the place where we went to eat, which 334 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: still exists on the Upper West Side. I remember we 335 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: walked three blocks to what is now a laundromat and 336 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 2: I looked it up and it was a famous erotic 337 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: bakery that was around in the nineties. 338 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 3: That got closed. 339 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: I still questioned, why would I have the most vivid 340 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: memory of this, and yet at the same time, maybe 341 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: I was alone with him. Why did I bury it. 342 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: I definitely didn't think that it was weird. 343 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 4: It wasn't traumatizing you, it. 344 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: Didn't traumatize me, and it just kind of was a 345 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: wacky thing Gary would do. So meanwhile, he has this 346 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: student that he is giving gifts to and calling all 347 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: the time and is really making her uncomfortable. She's seventeen, 348 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: her mom's the psychologist. 349 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: They're very close. 350 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: She tells her mom she's uncomfortable with Gary, and they 351 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: let him go in a very nice, gentle, thoughtful way, 352 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: but cut the cord. And this is a thing that 353 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: sets Gary off. 354 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: I'm talking with writer Piper Weiss about Gary Wilinsky, who 355 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: was her tennis coach in Manhattan in the nineties when 356 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: she was a teenager. So here's where we are. Gary's 357 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: growing obsessions with young girls, particularly one teenage girl, has 358 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: become dangerous. The seventeen year old has told her mother 359 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: that Gary makes her feel uncomfortable, and the mother tells 360 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: Gary that he can no longer coach her and he 361 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: has to stay away from her. 362 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: The rejection that he takes so personally has also just 363 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 2: really twisted in his mind because from letters and accounts 364 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 2: that he wrote himself during this time, he seemed to 365 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: see these certain students that he fixated on as both 366 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: daughters that he was protecting and lovers and captives. 367 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 4: Just power. 368 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: So it is it is power, and it's just conflated 369 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 2: with he doesn't have a family, he doesn't have a partner. 370 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: He has convinced himself that this person that he has 371 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: put all of his energy into coaching owes him complete family, love, devotion, devotion. 372 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: Because that's his identity as being this elite tennis coach. 373 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: Right, that's right, and being beloved by the girls. 374 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: What is the sexual component? Are we getting to that 375 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: or is there one starting now? 376 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 3: Sexual component? 377 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 2: I didn't understand any of it until many years later. 378 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 2: But what happens is he starts going on this shopping 379 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: spree in New York. He buys a wheelchair at a 380 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: medical supply store. He buys all different kinds of torture 381 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: sex toys, so a lot of this are written down 382 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 2: frantically on lists that he made. Under one heading is 383 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: kinky and under one heading is large knives, blood catcher. 384 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: In a matter of months, he drops at least ten 385 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: thousand dollars on sex toys, mass wigs and knives and guns. 386 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 4: Ten thousand dollars that he has or doesn't have. 387 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: He takes out cash from the bank. 388 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 2: Then he goes upstate near where he used to coach 389 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: girls at tennis camps and finds a house a cabin 390 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: in the middle of the woods. It's really remote, at 391 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: least a half a mile off a small road off 392 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: another road. You can't get there in the snow, and 393 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: he starts outfitting it every week. He is still coaching 394 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: me at this point in Manhattan and then driving up 395 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: four hours north every week to out fit this kind 396 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: of run down cabin with security cameras. 397 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 4: He's making a bunker. 398 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: He's making a bunker, so there's a Pulley system on 399 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: the ceiling. There's shackles over the bed, and the other 400 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: things that always struck me was he went to Kmart 401 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: and bought a nightgown for her. 402 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: He made a mix tape. 403 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 4: Is this for the girl who let him go? 404 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, unbeknownst to everyone, he's preparing this cabin for 405 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: this girl who let him. 406 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 3: Go months earlier. 407 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: So it's April now, and she let him go in January. 408 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: His mood has changed and we've noted it. He was 409 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: snapping at my partner on the court and it scared 410 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: us a little bit. He wasn't showing up as much. 411 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 2: He was sending a substitute, which was strange. He had 412 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: wasn't shaving. Big shift and behavior, big shift in behavior. 413 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: And one night in the car alone with him, maybe 414 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: two weeks before everything happened, he asked me not to 415 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: get out of the car and said, I'm so depressed. 416 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 3: And I said, well, I'm depressed too, I have that. 417 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: He's like, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. I 418 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: don't have anyone. You all grow up and you go 419 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: away and you leave me alone. I was so flattered 420 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 2: that he chose me to tell the adult thing to 421 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: I said, Gary, I promise. 422 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 3: I won't leave you. 423 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 4: What was his reaction? 424 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: He was very grateful him. He was tearing up. It 425 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 2: was dark that night. I couldn't really see inside the car. 426 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: I felt like Gary is in a bad place and 427 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: I want to be there for him. It felt like 428 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 2: a mature moment for me. And I was such a 429 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: kid in that moment because I was not understand I 430 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: was reading it all wrong and that it was really 431 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: inappropriate what he had said and done, and it could 432 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 2: have been worse, but luckily for me, it wasn't. Then 433 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: two weeks later, there's a big tournament in upstate New 434 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 2: York and the young woman that he is obsessed with 435 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: is playing at this tournament, and he goes in disguise. 436 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: He's got a tracking device on her family's car, so 437 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 2: he follows them up and he watches the match with 438 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: binoculars in disguise. And he's actually been stalking her in 439 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: different disguises for a couple of months and keeping lists 440 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: of where she plays tennis now and when she gets 441 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: out of school. He has a list of questions he 442 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: wants to ask her that are so strange and teenager, 443 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: even who is your best coach who gave you everything? 444 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 3: How far do you go with that guy? 445 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 2: That's not how A fifty six year old man talks 446 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 2: no less to a seventeen year old girl, so he 447 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: follows her and her mom with night vision goggles straight 448 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: out of Silence of the Lambs, which had just come 449 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: out a year before. He goes back to their motel, 450 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: waits for them in the parking lot, dressed by some 451 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: accounts an old grandma, by other accounts, a homeless man. 452 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 2: His face is covered in charcoal. He's got a hat 453 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: covering him, and he's pushing a wheelchair and underneath a 454 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: blanket on the wheelchair is a gun. Is a shotgun, 455 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: but he also has an electric cattle and he attacks 456 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: the daughter in the parking lot while she's with her 457 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: mother getting out of the car at night, at around 458 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: ten o'clock at night after the match, and the mother 459 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: steps in fearlessly and is just a true mama bear 460 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: and fights him off heroically, and he starts hitting her 461 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: with the cattle prod. The daughter runs to the front 462 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: desk of the Sheridan Hotel gets help from a desk clerk, 463 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: so she also saves her mother. It's actually this incredibly beautiful, 464 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: powerful thing. And Gary, the weird thing is he doesn't 465 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: use his gun. He just pulls it out from the 466 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: wheelchair and just backs the way and gets back into 467 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: his car. 468 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 4: And well, because this is not the way things are supposed. 469 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: To go, this isn't how he plans it off, exactly exactly. 470 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: He's so thrown off that he goes across the street. 471 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: This is a town right outside of Albany that's kind 472 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: of like a strip mall. Here's a Sheraton motel, there's 473 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 2: a Turfin. So he goes across the street to another motel, 474 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: checks in there under another name, and starts unpacking all 475 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: of these bags he has and throwing things in the 476 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: woods of the behind the parking lot of this other hotel. 477 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 3: So there's a diljo. 478 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: And a tennis racket and a bunch of letters to 479 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: her that he recorded on cassette tapes, also photographs of 480 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 2: her and possibly other students that he was stalking, and 481 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 2: someone the following day would be walking their dog in 482 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: the woods there and would stumble across all of this evidence. Meanwhile, 483 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: we're still in the night and hours passed since his 484 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 2: attempted kidnapping. 485 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 3: It's gone wrong. He's freaking out. 486 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 2: Now he's checked out of the second hotel and is 487 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: driving erradically with his lights off. And there's already a 488 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: call out for a white Lincoln where there's an attempted kidnapper. 489 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: And they see this guy in a white Lincoln driving 490 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: with his lights off. The cops do one siren. He 491 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: pulls into a parking lot next to the hotel. There 492 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: happens to be a local cameraman in the backs eat 493 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: of the cop car, so immediately starts filming Gary Parks 494 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: in this parking lot. The cops are behind them filming Gary. 495 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: He seems to be having this frantic conversation with himself, 496 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 2: and then the gun goes off and he is dead. 497 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: When the cops search his car, they find this lease, 498 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: and the lease takes them upstate another hour or so north, 499 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: and they find this cabin that's just a torture chamber 500 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 2: that he was clearly planning to keep one or more 501 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: victims there for as long as. 502 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 3: He was alive. 503 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 2: There's also a suggestion that he might have had plans 504 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 2: to kill himself and others. His victim and her mother 505 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: had to go to a hospital did not recognize him. 506 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: Didn't realize it was him that was attacking them because 507 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 2: he was in such disguise until later when it became 508 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 2: clear that it was Gary and they were in the 509 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: hospital and they then the news report started to come out, 510 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 2: and that's when I started to hear about it, but 511 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: we didn't talk about it. Even my friend that I 512 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: played with, she's the one that called me and said 513 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: Gary died. And at the time, all I knew was 514 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 2: that he had depression and that we were very close. 515 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: So I was very sad. And she said, oh, Piper, 516 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 2: you don't know the half of it. Just wait And 517 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: I said, what what? And she said, I can't talk 518 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 2: about it. It's It'll be on the news. Sure enough, 519 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: you know. It was the cover of every newspaper the 520 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 2: next day. Chamber of Horrors. 521 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 3: Coach kills self, tries to abduct girl. 522 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, what did your parents say? Not much. 523 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: My mom was really a hands on parent at the time, 524 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: so she was definitely concerned. She was talking to other mothers, 525 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: how are you what are you thinking? But I think 526 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: she must have said, do you have any questions? And 527 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: I just didn't know where to even start. I just 528 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: had see in the headlines so I didn't know. I 529 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: remember we watched footage of his suicide on a current affair, 530 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: so she was open to me seeing the things, but 531 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: I still didn't understand that he was. 532 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 3: I defended him, well, how do. 533 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 4: You reconcile these two people? One really heavily influenced you. 534 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that I believed in. 535 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: And so the press were coming around our school at 536 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: the time, and all I wanted to do was talk 537 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: to press because I wanted to matter to this story. 538 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: It was that thing where I had the wrong impulses 539 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: across the board. I loved Gary. I thought I was 540 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: his favorite. Why didn't he pick me? Which is a 541 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: really hard thing to admit to yourself as an adult, 542 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: that that was the thing that went through your head 543 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: at fourteen. 544 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but at fourteen, what are you usually thinking about 545 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: thinking about you? 546 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: You are thinking about you, and you're thinking about being 547 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: picked by someone that can validate not being excluded exactly, 548 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 2: and especially as a teenage girl at the time, I 549 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: felt inadequate and powerless. He was the one person that 550 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: said I was okay. That was the thing, and I 551 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: knew it was all tied up and sex because there 552 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: were these pictures on the cover of newspapers of the 553 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: shackles that were found in the cabin, and the wigs 554 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: and the masks. 555 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 3: There was a giant blow up doll. 556 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 2: So I knew there was sex involved and that it 557 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: was bad, and yet at the same time, I also 558 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 2: knew people should want to have sex with you. It 559 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 2: was all confused in my brain. 560 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 4: Now you're back to I'm not pretty enough. 561 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. 562 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 2: And so the thing I did was I remember trying 563 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 2: to defend Gary. 564 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: He was great, he was a great coach. 565 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 2: When when a reporter asked me about him, I don't 566 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: believe he did this, even though it was just oh, 567 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: case closed, he did it, you know, I was in 568 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: denial of that. 569 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 3: And then I went. 570 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: To my mom and I was I don't want to 571 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,239 Speaker 2: talk to a therapist. I want to talk to a 572 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: reporter for real. And so and the school did My school, 573 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: and I think all of the schools where he was 574 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: a private instructor didn't want anyone to talk to press. 575 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: So part of it was also a rebellion against this 576 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 2: closely guarded community in this world where everything was supposed 577 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: to seem so perfect. 578 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 3: And I was like, fuck that shit. 579 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 2: You know, And so my mom was cool, she still 580 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 2: wanted to protect me and didn't totally understand what my 581 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: motives were. But there was a really great reporter, Michael Stone, 582 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 2: who recently passed away. He was at New York Magazine 583 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: and he was doing an in depth article on this. 584 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: And she said I could talk to him off the record, 585 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: no names, and he would just ask me questions about 586 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 2: my experience. 587 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 3: And he did. 588 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 2: And then years later when I asked my mom, and 589 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 2: this is kind of the thing that sparked the book. 590 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: I had forgotten about this story in a weird way. 591 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: I mean I hadn't forgotten about it, but I had 592 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: just compartmentalized it in a very fractured way. There was 593 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: this guy I loved that taught me how to be 594 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: a really amazing athlete. He was the best. Oh I 595 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: miss him. And then a really scary thing happened with 596 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: the nightmare person. Oh that was the same person. So 597 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: in my thirties, I was actually researching another crime for 598 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 2: a story and I remembered Gary. It popped open a 599 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: vessel in my brain and I went to my mom, 600 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: can we talk about Gary Wilensky? And she had this 601 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: giant folder of every single news clipping also receipts from 602 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: that time, So that's how I knew about the extra 603 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: day T shirts Valentines. 604 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 4: Wow, she's collecting evidence. 605 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: Collecting evidence, and I realized I did not know anything 606 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: about this story. 607 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 3: I did not know anything about this man. 608 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: It was interesting to me from the perspective of the 609 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: way that stories were told in the nineties, you know, 610 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 2: and especially stories that involved young girls. Even the best 611 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: reporters were men, So there's not a lot of girls' voices. 612 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: It's dangerous to be a female victim. A lot of 613 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 2: people didn't speak out if they were out of self protection. 614 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 4: So what is the lesson learned here with a parent? 615 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: You know? Is it following instincts, is it having instincts 616 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: at all? 617 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 4: Is there anything that could have helped the situation. 618 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: I think what could have helped the situation is listening 619 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: to girls is just kind of a cultural thing that's 620 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: just starting to happen now. I think that the testimony 621 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: against Larry Nassar was a huge game changer because a 622 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: we realized that it's not as clear cut as you 623 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: think when you're being abused by someone in power and 624 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: your young girl, really good parents can be in the 625 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: room and not realize that it's happening. So it's not 626 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: about pointing fingers at parents, but it's about listening to 627 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: girls and also empowering girls. 628 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 3: To listen to themselves when they do feel uncomfortable. 629 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 4: But you didn't feel uncomfortable. 630 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't. 631 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: But if there was a platform or community of people 632 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: talking about that were of his students that did talk 633 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: about their discomfort, it might have made me on hire 634 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 2: alert when he said inappropriate things to me. It might 635 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 2: have made me question some of his motives in a 636 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 2: way that I maybe wouldn't have ordinarily because I was 637 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 2: really naive. 638 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: The heart switch on that is that with that same community, 639 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: he could have been just a odd man who was 640 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: perfectly harmless. And when you do have then this community 641 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: of people saying, well, this guy's acting really weird, then 642 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: it can, on the other hand, ruin someone's life. 643 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: I don't think that he is that fine line between 644 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: a good guy. I think he was dangerous and some 645 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: girls knew it and they caught on, they smelled it, 646 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: and they weren't given the. 647 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 3: Power to be heard about it. 648 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: So yeah, I I don't think it's as murky as 649 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: we think it is when Gary was mad, it was scary, 650 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 2: and when he was fixated on you, it was intense 651 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: and potentially creepy and clear yep yep, yep, and inappropriate. 652 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: The bottom line is just empowering girls to have voices 653 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: and to listen to each other and to support each other. 654 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 655 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 5: Warren was this sort of pimply kid favored by his father, 656 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 5: Rulan Jeffs, who was the president and prophet of the FLDS, 657 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 5: that's the fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. Two days after his 658 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 5: father died in two thousand and two, he announced to 659 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 5: the men, hands off my father's wives, and he begins 660 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 5: marrying them all himself. I think in the end he 661 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 5: had seventy eight wives, twenty four of which involved children 662 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 5: under age seventeen. 663 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 664 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 665 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and 666 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 667 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,919 Speaker 1: Ella Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 668 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 669 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, 670 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook 671 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 672 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 673 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you 674 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 675 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 676 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com, Listen, subscribe and 677 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 678 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. 679 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: Mm HM