1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Alson Media. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: Welcome Jacob app and here a podcast featuring a sound 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: activated strobe light that you can't see, because. 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 3: This is not a visual podcast unless you have like 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 3: setastesia and you could like start hearing seeing the strobe 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 3: through our voices, in which case is good for you. 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 4: Wish that was me? 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that that's Garrison. I'm the We're back again. 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: We're back again for a dissented to hell. Yeah. So, 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: last episode we talked about Colin Wang and the rise 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: of PDD, which is China's second largest shopping app and 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: the Chinese version of the app, Temu. So we're now 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: in the post Colin Wang era, an era I think 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: actually might be worse than the original era, which is 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: kind of stunning. But you know, here we are, Here 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: we are, and this era actually starts really well for PDD. 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: This is like twenty twenty one. China's lockdowns are actually 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: incredible for PDD because, as we talked about last episode, 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: pdd's strategy is group shopping, right. It's about getting a 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: bunch of people to buy things together to make it cheaper, 21 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: this thus pulling in more in our customers. Now, China 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 2: had real lockdowns and in a real lockdown. This is 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: increasingly how people got food. You know, the strictness of 24 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: the lockdowns very across, like depending on what province you're in, right, 25 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: But so like my family was an inner Mongolia and 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: an inner Mongolia in like the first lockdowns, you could 27 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 2: send you could only send one member of your family 28 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: outside per week to like, you know, to go get groceries. 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: Otherwise everyone else fed all times has to stay indoors. 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: And this meant that people started pulling together to like 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: all buy groceries and then sending one person out to 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: like go pick up the delivery. And this this ingrained 33 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: PDDs like fundamental strategy of like buying into the into 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: the consciousness of the Chinese public because they've just been 35 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: doing it for like a year, right, and as twenty 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: twenty for a word on PDD like skyrockets, this this 37 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: is this the period from like twenty twenty to like 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four has been the period where pdd's grown 39 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: them most. I mean it was already pretty big before then, 40 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 2: but now you know, it's it's now like the main 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: competitor of Alibaba. It was like the previously unassailable like 42 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: online shopping giant the company grew so much that it 43 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: forced the other like shopping companies to get into the 44 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: fruit market because it was like clobbering them there so badly. 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, it was wild. But then a bunch of 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: absolutely terrible stories broke about PDD in both the Chinese 47 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: and American press. So we're gonna start with the stuff 48 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: that's I guess less bad, and then it's gonna get worse. 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: So question number one is the PDD at malware. All right, 50 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: we're just really jumping right in here. Oh, this is 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: this is the mild it, this is the Are we 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: allout to say this legally? Yeah? It's well, here's the thing. 53 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: So Google play removed the app from its playstore. Oh okay, 54 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 2: so all right, so so okay, we we need to 55 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: be very specific about we're talking it's too bad for Google, 56 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 2: that it's probably too bad for you. Yeah, so very specifically, 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: this is we're the thing we're talking about right now 58 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: is not Temu. We're talking specifically about the Chinese version 59 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: of the app PDD. And this was released on the 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: Google Play Store in like the mid twenty the mid 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 2: early like like I think it's like twenty twenty one 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: or something and okay, so this again and to be 63 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: clear again this is not Temu. This is specifically the 64 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: Android version of PDD. And this is interesting too because 65 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: so most people in China like don't use Android for 66 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: you or sorry, they don't. They don't. They don't use 67 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: Google Play, right, like they don't that that's not like 68 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: the App store where they get their apps from. So 69 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: when PDD released, like their app on the app store, 70 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: this is this is them specifically going to the Western market. 71 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: And did they have infrastructure set up in the States 72 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: to support this type of like drop shipping or like 73 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: how do this? 74 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get into it. 75 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 3: It was like kind of later a little bit like 76 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 3: gig economy stuff in China. But how how are they 77 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: going to move that FedEx? Okay, yeah, right, well we'll 78 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: get into that more later. We're talking about Timbo. 79 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: This first one didn't like it didn't have that many 80 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: users because it was just like the Chinese app. But 81 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 2: like here, okay, so okay, there's something we also we 82 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: need to get out of the way first, which is 83 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: that there's like a massive panic in the US about 84 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: Chinese apps being like Chinese government trojan horses, like especially TikTok. 85 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 2: So unfortunately, before we start this, we have to sort 86 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 2: out kind of well, like you have to make a 87 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: judgment about what level of app surveillance is, like the 88 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: level of apps surveillance you get in the US, because 89 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: all of your apps are spying on you, and then 90 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: what is like above and beyond the like quote unquote 91 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 2: normal level spying and like TikTok is TikTok is unbelievably invasive, right, 92 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: Like it is true, it's a privacy nightmare, but like 93 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 2: so are most apps, Like TikTok's worse than normal, but 94 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: it's not. 95 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: That TikTok is by the Chinese communists. 96 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: So this is something we're gonna get into. And this 97 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: is this is true with pdu too. The US actually 98 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: gets like the stripped down, cucked not as bad version 99 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: of Chinese apps, like TikTok does not have a bunch 100 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: of the like integration stuff that that Doyen, the Chinese 101 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: like version of it has. We're like Douyen has this 102 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: thing where like I guess Google's kind of doing it now, 103 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 2: but like you can directly, like like an influencer can 104 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: hold up a product and you could tap the product 105 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: and go buy it. Google is trying to do that now. Yeahah, 106 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: but China had that, like like Douyan's had that for 107 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: like ages. Right, It's like so like the versions of 108 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: the apps that we get here are actually less bad 109 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: than the Chinese ones, which makes the whole panic so 110 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: funny to me. It's like no, no, no, like they're 111 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: sending you like a better version of the app, Like, well. 112 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 3: That's because what Uncle Sam calls in our version, we 113 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: have to take out all of the maoist influences, I 114 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 3: don't know whatever whatever. 115 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: All right, all right, so you know, look like so 116 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 2: we have to we have to sort out of the 117 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: difference between stuff that's just like the weird moral panic 118 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: and what what's actually malware. So CNN did an investigation 119 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 2: of this app. So originally there was a Chinese company 120 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: that a Chinese security company was looked at this app 121 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: and was like they're using a bunch of Android exploits, 122 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: like they're like they're using like they're there, they're effectively 123 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: hacking your phone, right, They're they're they're they're deploying a 124 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: bunch of exploits of things that are like broken in 125 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: in like in Android and allowing you like this, like 126 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: lesson do stuff and I was supposed to be able 127 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: to do And so CNN brought in a bunch of 128 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: different security like analysts and like they brought in security 129 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: companies like look at it, and here's what they found. 130 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if you'd trust this. C it 131 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: ed they're literally called the Communist News Network. 132 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 4: Quote. 133 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: The app was able to continue running in the background 134 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: and prevent itself from being uninstalled, which allowed it to 135 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: boost its monthly active rate. Hype on it. I don't 136 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: know how pronounce this guy's name. I'm so sorry this guy. 137 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: This guy's this guy's name has an umlot over the oh. 138 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: I'm an expert at pronouncing foreign names. Give it to me. 139 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: It's h y pp umlot o n e n good luck. 140 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: You know what. 141 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: I'm just gonna take a I'm gonna sabbatico. 142 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: He put in I'm so sorry to this guy, who 143 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: I think is fine. This guy's security analyst said it 144 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: also had the ability to spy on competitors by tracking 145 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: activity on other shopping apps and getting information from them. 146 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: He added toshin, which is like another guy found PDD 147 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: two have exploited about fifty Android system vulnerabilities. Most of 148 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: these exploits were tailor made for customized parts known as 149 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: original Equipment manufacturer code, which tends to be audited less 150 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: than ASoP, which is like another kind of code and 151 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: therefore prone to more more vulnerabilities. He said PDD had 152 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: also exploited a number of AOSP vulnerabilities, including one that 153 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: was flagged by Totioniin to Google in February twenty twenty two. 154 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: Google fixed this bug in March. He said, I've never 155 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: seen anything like it. It's like super expansive. Cergy Totionin, 156 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: android security expert, he's the guy I said that. Sorry, 157 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: I've never seen and Android Tracin said, I've never seen 158 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: anything like this. It's like super expansive. According to Tosin, 159 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: the exploits allowed PDD to access users location contacts, calendars, notification, 160 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: and photo albums with ot their consents. They were also 161 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: able to change system settings and access users social media 162 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: accounts and chats. He said, now that is pretty bad. 163 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 2: Will I will mention that like a lot of your 164 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: normal apps can also do shit like that. Yeah, like 165 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: that's stuff that you can get out of, like Google, 166 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: but some it's not good. The other thing that they 167 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: were doing is they're doing these things called privileged escalation 168 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: attacks where they're trying to get like a higher level 169 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: of privileged on the system so they can run code 170 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: and not supposed to be able to. So you know 171 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: how like sometimes when you're running something at a computer, 172 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: you have to run it as admin so the thing 173 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: actually works. Yeah, like Discord, Yeah, I actually Discord. I've 174 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: been trying to stream Alan Wake two to my friends 175 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: and oh my god, it has been such a nightmare. 176 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna personally write the CEO of Discord a letter. 177 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: And yeah, but like so like so there they're they're 178 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: like the way the system security works is there's certain 179 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: levels of users that are allowed to do certain things 180 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: and certain people who aren't, and this is supposed to 181 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: stop people from running malicious code. And so they're doing 182 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: these privileged escalation attacks where they're trying to be able 183 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 2: to like do stuff that only admins can do. And 184 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: so I showed this to so I was trying to 185 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: get a gauge on how much of this is real 186 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: and how much of this is insane, And so I 187 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: showed I showed it to my friend who's a software engineer, 188 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: and he was like, what the fuck? So this is 189 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: this is very tytyfically the privileged escalation attacks on the 190 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: and the attack on the like the original Equipment manufacturer 191 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: code like the OEM stuff. That's just not normal, Like 192 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: that is that is actual malware. That is like not 193 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 2: that is not normal app bullshit that like this thing 194 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: is trying to hack your phone. So in twenty twenty three, 195 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: the like Google pulled the app from the store because 196 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: everyone was like, what the fuck. Wait, this is just 197 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: literally malware. I'm gonna so so what were they trying 198 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: to do? Here's CNN again. It was in twenty twenty, 199 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: according to a current PDD employee, that the company set 200 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 2: up a team of about one hundred engineers and product 201 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: managers to dig for vulnerabilities and Android phones, develop ways 202 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: to exploit them, and turn that into profit. According to 203 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: the source, who requested anonymity for feear of for fear 204 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: of reprisals, the company only targeted users in rural areas 205 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: and smaller towns initially, while of winning users in megacities 206 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: such as Beijing and Shanghai. The goal was to reduce 207 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,119 Speaker 2: the risk of being exposed, they said, by collecting expansive 208 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: data on user activities, the company was able to create 209 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: a comprehensive portrait of the users habits, interests, and preferences. 210 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: According to the source, this also allowed it to improve 211 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: its machine learning model to offer more personalized push notifications 212 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: and ads attracting users to open the app and place orders. 213 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 2: They said, so this all makes perfect sense with like, 214 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: how we know that PDD operates right, Like, you know, 215 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: they're trying to build detailed profiles or rural customers they 216 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: can serve the more efficient ads, and they're doing it 217 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 2: by apparently just straight up running an in house hacking team. 218 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: I got pretty large one. Oh so they supposedly that 219 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: team got like acted and they don't do it anymore. 220 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: But who knows. So, Okay, this is not even close 221 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: to the most batshit thing that PDD gets up to. Okay, 222 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 2: we're going to escalate up the how weird this stuff is. 223 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 2: So one of the things that that PDD has a 224 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: six tonech reporting is that they have these really strict 225 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 2: non compete clauses that prevent people from like, so if 226 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: you take a job here and you get fired or 227 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: eat like you leave, you can't take another job at 228 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: a tech company for like years this is like fucking 229 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: like any tech company, like fucking like I don't know, 230 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 2: they're they're really expensive, like fucking like setting up your 231 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: grandma's website like might get you trouble. It's like it's 232 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: it's a real disaster. We have these in the US too, 233 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: and they absolutely suck. So I think there was a 234 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: ruling about them FTC ruling to ban them recently. Maybe 235 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: Oh no, they're proposed, it hasn't gone through yet, trying 236 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 2: to get rid of them. But yeah, they're they're in 237 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: the US two. But these ones are really strict and 238 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: apparently they're like PDD is really aggresive about it to 239 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: the point where like people people will take other jobs 240 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 2: under fake identities and like pdd's HR will like track 241 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 2: them down. Oh wow, yeah, Like they're they're like headhunting 242 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: these people, well like like inverse head hunt, Like they're 243 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: they're like they're they're literally just hunting down people trying 244 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 2: who are trying to get like jobs, right, And this 245 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: apparently led people to adopt secret identities to like hide, right, 246 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: And so this GIDS is something I I did not 247 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: believe the first time I read it, which is that 248 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: apparently and I regentally read this in n K, who 249 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 2: is usually reliable. But I read this and I was like, 250 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: no way. 251 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 4: Uh. 252 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: The thing that they said was that employees at work, 253 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: like who work for PDD apparently use pseudonyms and like 254 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 2: never tell each like almost never tell each other they're 255 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: actual names. That's I mean, that makes sense. Uh. And 256 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: apparently also they're banned from like like the information level 257 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: of information control is so strict that like you can't 258 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: you're not allowed to know what like the structure of 259 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: another work group is. And like I read this, I 260 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: was like, I don't believe this right, And then I 261 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: started running it into like other outlets like Financial Times, 262 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: was like yeah, no, no, apparently they they talked to 263 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: they talk to people who work for the company. They're like, yeah, 264 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: everyone uses pseudonyms. I didn't fucking know anyone's real name 265 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 2: or like there was like one person who's real name 266 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: that I know wild. I don't know why they do. 267 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: I've never seen I've literally never seen this before with 268 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 2: any company. It's it's fucking nuts. I got nothing. Yeah, 269 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: I do you know who? No one had this company 270 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: knows my real name. So that's true. I do actually 271 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: operate by a pseudonym. Yeah, that's pretty funny. 272 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: That is not like a sizable portion of the cool 273 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 3: Zone media team. 274 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: But all of us are fake names. Robert Evans, that's 275 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: not Robert Evans, real Robert Evans was the producer of 276 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: that movie. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 277 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: Anyway, do you know who also has trustworthy names that 278 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 3: you can trust these products? 279 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 4: Woo so true? 280 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: Jeff, Wow, that was a really funny joke. 281 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: Bill. Oh, we're back. Sorry. 282 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: I was just talking to the two fake fake name 283 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: people who are listening on our call right now. 284 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: Me I continue. So this is where we get to 285 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: the truly bleak stuff. So all right, In twenty twenty one, 286 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: one of pdd's employees in shing John just worked worked 287 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: a shift, came home, and the dis straight up fucking 288 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: died in her bed from overwork. This this was a 289 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: you know, this very quickly turns into a giant media 290 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: thing because this woman like she's in she's in really 291 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: good health and she just fucking is worked so hard 292 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: that she lays down in her bed dies. Then a 293 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: worker who posted a video of an ambulance outside of 294 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: pdd's headquarters with the caption another brave warrior of PDD 295 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: has fallen, which great caption, terrible situation, great caption. He 296 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: gets fired for it, and then very quickly like after that, 297 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: so they have like a the company has like a 298 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: Q and a thing like if effectively, what happens is 299 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: someone responds to like one of their social media accounts 300 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: with and asks them what do you think of the 301 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: PDD worker who died after working overtime? Should PDD bear responsibility? 302 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: Their corporate responded and I quote, look at those in 303 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: the underclass who isn't exchanging life for money. I never 304 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: thought that this is a problem of capital, but as 305 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: a problem of this society. We live in an era 306 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: where we spend our whole lives working hard. You can 307 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: choose a comfortable life if you accept the consequences of 308 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: comfortable living. People control how much effort they make. Everyone does. 309 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: I can't believe there's people who genuinely like advocate that 310 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 3: China is a like communist country. So strange, that's insane. 311 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 3: They're only talking like God, this is. 312 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: This is like this, and this is like and this 313 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: is like this is one of the things that like 314 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: I just like, I don't know, like I just can't 315 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: fucking get over this. Ship because like, I have a 316 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: bunch of fucking family in China, and you know, do 317 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: they fucking quote Karl Marx, No, they quote Steve Jobs 318 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: because they're all these like fucking insane entrepreneur bullshit, like 319 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 2: like fucking literally like Ryan Set like straps, Yeah, it's insane. 320 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: It's like, no, it's just your fault that you work 321 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: too hard. This is actually labor's fault and not capital. 322 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 2: Like this, this fucking blew up in the Chinese media 323 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 2: and people got like people got really fucking pissed, and 324 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 2: p d D at first was like, no, this is 325 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: a fake post. We never did it. And the people 326 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: were like, no, no, it's not this is we found 327 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: the post. Right, they take they take it down, people 328 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: like had saved screenshots and eventually the company was forced 329 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: to admit that it was actually their account, but then 330 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 2: they said that it was a social media contractor who 331 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 2: put it on the corporate account. Quote by mistake. 332 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 3: Oh sure, sure, yeah, that's like that. That's like me 333 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: when I searched my twin peaks not safe for work, 334 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 3: uh fan art on the coolest media account. It was 335 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 3: a mistake, guys, didn't mean didn't didn't mean to post 336 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: it there. I don't know how that happened, it got 337 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 3: it got past the VODs. I don't know how. 338 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, people, people understandably are not happy 339 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: like and that. And eleven days later, a PDD employee 340 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: jumps off a fucking building again, also because they've been 341 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: worked so hard. And this is where we need to 342 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: talk about pdd's labor conditions, because they are fucking appalling. 343 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: Here's sixth Tone. A former PDD employee who left the 344 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: company a year ago told sixth Tone under conditions of anonymity, 345 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: that excessive work hours are common practice. Around eight months 346 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: after he joined PDD in early twenty nineteen. He said 347 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: employees were told they need to work at least three 348 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: hundred hours per month, amounting to nearly twelve hours per day, 349 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: six days a week. We're going to get more into that. 350 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: That's a schedule called nine niney six, where you work 351 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: from nine am to nine pm, six days a week. 352 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: This is incredibly common and try This is actually a 353 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: good schedule. In a lot of Chinese work environments, it 354 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: can get way worse than that. Here's another quote from 355 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: that six Tone article. The company cares a lot about 356 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: our work hours. It has become company culture. Even if 357 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: staff is finished working, if they'll just stay in the office. 358 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: I was one of the lucky ones. I only had 359 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: to work from eleven am to ten pm, and my 360 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: manager was nice to me. This person added that employees 361 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: arriving after eleven am would have their daily wages docked 362 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: by three hours. It's fucking insane. It's it's nightmarish. That 363 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: same worker talked about how she would like and this 364 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: is this is the thing that's like you see you 365 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: see this a lot of different accounts, is that people 366 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 2: would just literally break down crying at their desks because 367 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: they had so they were so overworked. Are these like 368 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: office jobs? These are workers, These are tech workers. These 369 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: are fucking tech workers. Like right, these are the fucking 370 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: bougie tech jobs. 371 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 3: They're not like because they're getting over like a factory 372 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: or like an Ama warehouse tech workers. 373 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: And this this is the thing about this, right, is 374 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: that like we we only we don't like there hasn't 375 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: been okay. So the Chinese media, this actually like becomes 376 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: a huge thing in the Chinese media is that these 377 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: people are dying. There was another There's also around the 378 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: same time, a delivery driver lit himself on fire like 379 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: as a protest for like the amount of shit that 380 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: he had to deal with. And this was a big, 381 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 2: like a huge thing in the Chinese media, but almost 382 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: all of the reporting and the coverage and stuff like 383 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: that was about the tech workers. But like, fucking so 384 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: many people work schedules that are worse than nine ninety six, right, 385 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: Like that is a that is a that is a 386 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: tech workers schedule, right, there are a lot of places 387 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 2: where people were fucking way worse shit. The sort of 388 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: countervailing force to it is people who, like you know, 389 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: we talked about this kind of in the Lying Flat episodes. 390 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: It's people working for like one day and then eating 391 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: just like plain rice with some like whatever, fucking the 392 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: cheapest thing they can finally they can fucking get out 393 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 2: of it, and not working for two more days and 394 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: working another day. But like it's it's so bad, like 395 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: the little labor conditions are just appalling, and you know, 396 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: like a bunch of stories sort of started coming out 397 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: about how bad PDDs like conditions are. There was one 398 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: on we chat that broke that I saw via six 399 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: tone about the toilet situation in pdd's largest office building. 400 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: So this building has one thousand people per floor. It 401 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: has eight total bathrooms per floor one thousand people. They 402 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: don't even have one bathroom for every hundred people. 403 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 3: How does this even function? I mean, like I suppose 404 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: it just doesn't. People are like pea like people. 405 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,959 Speaker 2: People fucking like you don't eat in the morning, or 406 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: you try to hold out to lunch when you can 407 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: run to a different building and try to use the 408 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: bathrooms there, but like you know, you're trying to hold 409 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: it all day, or you just yeah, where you fucking 410 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 2: do that? You go, you use your lunch time instead 411 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: of eating to fucking go somewhere else. You starve yourself. 412 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: There are like there's a bunch of reports of guys 413 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 2: just like shitting in urinals because there just literally wasn't 414 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: time for them to fucking actually like use a stall. 415 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: So they're just like they're they're just like they're they're 416 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: pooping in urinals. Maybe the worst picture I've ever seen 417 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: in my entire life is this is going to be 418 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: the episode our PDD started installing timers over the toilets 419 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: to show how long how long people had been there, 420 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 2: So there's just like a like a a fucking clock 421 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: over you that starts when you when you fucking close 422 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 2: the door to try to get people to go to 423 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: the bathroom faster. It is just appalling the conditions. And again, 424 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: these are the conditions of like the office workers. It's 425 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 2: apocalyptically bad. So I realized when I was researching this 426 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: story that I actually ran into PDD earlier, because I 427 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: I so like, way before I did this story, I 428 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: hadn't looked into TAMU at all, and I realized that 429 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: I had. I had ran into PDD earlier when I 430 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: was tracking the story about UH tech workers banding together 431 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: to like basically like on GitHub, these these office workers, 432 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: like tech workers, like made a giant spreadsheet where everyone 433 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: would document their hours and like their pay scales and stuff. 434 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: And it was like, you know, it was this sort 435 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: of like you know, it was it was this thing 436 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: to like demand better labor conditions. Actually I'm pretty I'm 437 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: pretty sure they were actually demanding like the workplace democracy too. 438 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: It was pretty wild. But the thing that you get 439 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: out of that is that PDD has the worst the 440 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: worst hours of any tech company. They are. PDD is 441 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 2: so bad. The other Chinese tech companies got worse in 442 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: order to compete with them. 443 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 444 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 3: That is the the whole hard thing about setting the 445 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: bar so low is that it allows other people to 446 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 3: lower their own bars. Yeah yeah, and it makes just 447 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 3: every everybody worse. 448 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And again, like I can't emphasize enough the extent 449 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 2: to which these are the office workers, right, Like, these 450 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 2: are the people who are making the best money out 451 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 2: of this, who are treated better than like the funking 452 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 2: factory workers and the fucking like people in the rural 453 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 2: areas like fucking doing farming. 454 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: Right. 455 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: But again we don't we don't know a huge amount 456 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: about what those workers' lives are like because they're not 457 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 2: urban tech workers. And urban tech workers can get their 458 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: stories into the press, but like you know, migrant migrant 459 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: factory workers, rural workers, there's you know, there's just not 460 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 2: the kind of attention that you can get out of 461 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: a big story about like an urban office building. And 462 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, these labor conditions are so bad 463 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: that people are just straight up fucking dying. And the 464 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: Chinese government eventually gets involved, like they're there, they're their 465 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 2: version of the Streame Court eventually rules that like working 466 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: people twelve hours a day, six days a week, is illegal, 467 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: but it doesn't really matter, like a lot of those 468 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: people still have those same schedules. Yeah, and you know 469 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: and like this this is not a this is not 470 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: a problem that can be solved just by like court rulings. Right, 471 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's really fucking bad. We're gonna we're 472 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: gonna take an ad break. I don't I don't have 473 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: a good transition out of that ship. And we're back. 474 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 2: So all of this brings us to Temu And it's 475 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: slogan shop like a billionaire. 476 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 3: So, oh god, this the slogan. It's so it's like 477 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 3: it evokes like a like a nauseous reaction in me. 478 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 3: It's so it epitomizes everything that is wrong about our 479 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: current way of living and the way we idealize the 480 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 3: rich and put them on this like pedestal for how 481 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 3: you should live your life, but also knowing that you 482 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: will never actually be there. Yeah, this is this is 483 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: this is as close as you're going to get. 484 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: And it's it's it's also a thing where like it's 485 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: it's a completely unreal lit like it's if that's this 486 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: is a billionaire shop like billionaires. So it's not like 487 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: you think those people fucking shop like no, No, they don't. 488 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 3: They have they have over over like saving three dollars 489 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 3: on on like a mango. 490 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: You're like, no, yeah, like what the fuck are you 491 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: talking about? Yeah? So yeah, like I I hate it. 492 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: I hate it so fucking much. 493 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 4: You know. 494 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: So, as we said, like this is the time. It 495 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: is the American version of PDD. If you're in the US, 496 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 2: you've probably seen tim owas. Apparently they're not that many 497 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 2: of them in like other countries, Like I have British 498 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: friends who are just like, what the fuck are you 499 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 2: talking about me? And I've never heard of TIMMU. 500 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: Before the super Bowl, for whatever it's worth. 501 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 2: The big place where they were advertising was YouTube. But 502 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: if you're watching YouTube without an app blocker, don't I can. 503 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: I don't know if I can legally recommend you probably 504 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: probably that phone I can get it. It's an app. 505 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: I don't do it. I don't know if it may 506 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: be legal, it may not be. I can't say I 507 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: will never advocate breaking the law. 508 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 3: No, definitely buy utube. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's definitely the 509 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: way to go. Absolutely, But you know, like they okay, 510 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 3: like most famously yeah, yea, as you're saying, like, so 511 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: they spent twenty seven million dollars buying three Super Bowl ads. 512 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 3: It's all the same ad and it sucked. But you know, okay, 513 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: this is only a fraction. 514 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 2: Of their fucking budget. 515 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: Right. 516 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 2: Here's from the Wall Street Journal quote. Ten MoU's marketing 517 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 2: budget reached one point seven billion dollars in twenty twenty three, 518 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: and that figure will grow to nearly three billion in 519 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. JP Morgan's analyst estimate. Last year, ten 520 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: MoU's marketing spending contributed to an average loss of seven 521 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: dollars per quarter, according to Goldman Sax estimates. They are 522 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: buying so many ads they are literally driving other companies 523 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: out of the ad market. LIKETCCO has been talking about 524 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 2: how they can't afford to run ads because ads are 525 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: getting too expensive, because they're buying so many fucking ads. 526 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: Here's Reuter's quote. US companies dependent on commercial spending or 527 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: spending on commercials, not. 528 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, commercial spending. They are buying commercials yeah yeah. 529 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 2: Like Facebook, they say Meta, I refuse to fucking call 530 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: that company Beta, like fuck that shit. Their Facebook are 531 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: being saved by Chinese retailers like Temu and Sheian. They 532 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: represent ten per those two companies, just Temu and she 533 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: In represent ten percent of Meta's revenue last year. The 534 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 2: Facebook owners said, so Temu is hemorrhaging money right now 535 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: in order to do this right, JP Morgan thinks they're 536 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 2: losing three billion a year. But they also project and 537 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: to be fair, these projections, these projections are wrong so 538 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: many of the time, of so much of the time, 539 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 2: but they're projecting the ten will be making three point 540 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: five billion a year in twenty twenty seven. And all 541 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: of this raises the question why, and to answer that, 542 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: we need to get into Chinese development economics. So the 543 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: Chinese economy has a problem, and this is a problem 544 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: that the CCP is known about for a long time. 545 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 2: It's the problem of turning a sort of like a 546 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 2: low on the value chain like manufacturing economy, to a 547 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: consumption driven economy. Now, the problem with transitioning into a 548 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 2: consumption driven economy is that people don't have enough money 549 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 2: to boost consumer demand. The Marxist way of saying this 550 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: is that under capitalism, both output and consumption are double 551 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: determined by your wage. Right, your wage determines both firm 552 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: output and also how much you can consume. Right in 553 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: non Marxist terms. Oh no, no one has enough money 554 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: to buy things. They did you consumer economy by brother 555 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: in Christ. You set the wages. Okay, where are the fuck? Yes, 556 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: where the fuck are these people supposed to be getting 557 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: money from to buy your shit if you won't give 558 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 2: them more money? Like wait, wait, wait, So you know 559 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: you can't do this by just making them like work 560 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: more hours. You know, you can work people for like 561 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: twelve fifteen, like twenty hours a day, but there's only 562 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: twenty four hours a day. Like, there's an actual definite 563 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: there's an actual definite limit to the amount of exploitation 564 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: you can do via increasing labor hours. This is this 565 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: has always been capitalism's problem, right, Like the sort of 566 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: rapacity of capitalism has hit the secular limit of time itself. 567 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: So the solution to this is to expand into new 568 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: markets where consumers have more money, which is to say 569 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: the US. So PDD initially targeted like poor rural Chinese workers, right, 570 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: and this is kind of the same group that Temu 571 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: was targeting in the now. In the US, their initial 572 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: base is people who like buy from dollar stores, but 573 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: they've been spreading rapidly. Temu has outpaced she in to 574 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,719 Speaker 2: become the second largest shopping app in the US. But 575 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: the important thing really, yeah, yeah there's second behind an Amazon. Yeah, 576 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: they're they're destroying she in Like, wow, yeah, I did 577 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: not know they were that popular. Yeah, I mean like 578 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: estimates are like, well, I've seen simens to say they 579 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: have one hundred million years. I don't buy that. I've 580 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: seen the estimates that I think I'm more reliable are 581 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: like fifty four million years in the US, although. 582 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: Well, the thing is, we don't we don't have post 583 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 3: super Bowl numbers between fifty and well. 584 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: I think I think it's like fifty. I wouldn't I 585 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't expt on hundred million ones. I think that's bullshit. 586 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 2: We don't have good post super Bowl data yet. Kind 587 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: of the issue. But yeah, they're they're they're clobbering people. 588 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: But the important thing about specifically the American market for 589 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: TEMU is that, like the kind the equivalent person who 590 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: shops at a dollar store in the US still has 591 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: unfathomably more money than that same person in China because 592 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: partially this is because the strength of the American dollar. 593 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: Partially this is because American wages are just like unfathomably 594 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: higher than Chinese wages, and that's that's that's true, even 595 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: if you're like even when you account for like the 596 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: relative strength and dollars to the yawn. So you know, 597 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,719 Speaker 2: the other kind of important thing about temis strategy is 598 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: that they've been using this kind of like loophole that 599 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: will set up a US customs law to allow people 600 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 2: to like bring presents home from countries. So like, if 601 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: you go to another country and you bring a present home, 602 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: it's worth less than two hundred dollars, you go through 603 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 2: like an expedited customs thing, you know, have to pay 604 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: tariffs on it. Yeah, so I Temu and like a 605 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: whole bunch of these companies just ship every single one 606 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 2: of their packages in quantities where it's like seven hundred 607 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: and ninety nine dollars, not eight hundred dollars ye legal, yeah, 608 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 2: yeah yeah. And it's really funny. It's set off this 609 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: like it's massive intra capitalist war because like a bunch 610 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: of like like American right wingers, like American manufacturers, like 611 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: the Republican Party are like, we need to close this gap, 612 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: But then all of the fucking shipping companies are like, no, 613 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: this is a vital part of the American consumer economy, 614 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: and there's this like giant war going on like both 615 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: in Congress and like the like in the press over 616 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: whether they should when they should close as loophole now, 617 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: you know. On the other hand, like there are real 618 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 2: challenges to Timu being the first like company to break 619 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: into the they're like Chinese companies like really truly break 620 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 2: into the American market, like she and has done well, 621 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: but they haven't like they have they have, They're not 622 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: like a rival front to Amazon, right, Like they're not 623 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: big enough to like knock off one of the sort 624 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 2: of like American tech giants. And Temu's problem is that. Okay, 625 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 2: so if you compare Temu to to PDD, right, the 626 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: Chinese version, PDD is supposed to be about spreading through 627 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: word of mouth, right, It's it spreads by like someone 628 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: in your you know you as as of someone buying 629 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: something from PDD taps your entire friend group and your 630 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: family to get them to buy something for cheaper. Right. 631 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: But the problem is that. 632 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 3: Like fucking night, I forgot how marish this whole structure is. 633 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: It's so bad. But the thing is, like Americans don't 634 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 2: really do that, like there have been attempts to do 635 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: like group on things, they never worked and Americans also 636 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: don't group shop right because we're I don't know more Weird's. 637 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 3: Just a fucking I mean, this is not a full 638 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 3: full of a lot, more like individualistic impulse science that 639 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 3: is that is kind of a large part of what 640 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,239 Speaker 3: the American shopping classes me is is built off of. 641 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: And and this isn't This is an issue for Temu 642 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: because like they don't have the word of mouth thing 643 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: that drove them in China, so they're relying on just 644 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: top down like like massive ad buys and stuff, and 645 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: there's kind of a limit, and it's something that Temu understands, right, 646 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 2: Like this is you know, the whole there's a whole 647 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: thing in the Chinese tech industry about the power of 648 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 2: being able to leverage people's like private networks, right, Temo understands, 649 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: But they don't have a way to break into the 650 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: American market because it just doesn't work like the Chinese market. 651 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 2: So instead they're like buying three Super Bowl ads right now. 652 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: There's another issue, which is that the goods that they 653 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 2: sell suck ass and they break instantly. You know, that's 654 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: an issue, But I don't know it's the US. Lots 655 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 2: of things suck and break instantly, but like it is 656 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 2: only that's been driving sort of negative sentiment from people 657 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 2: who've used it, is they're like, they buy something and 658 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: it's just like sucks, and they're, you know, they're unhappy 659 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: about it. The thing I think is maybe the biggest 660 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 2: problem is that their delivery times are really long by 661 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 2: Americans den because they're shipping overseas, Temu had to build 662 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 2: an actual logistics infrastructure where PDD like didn't, right because 663 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: PDD is just using like Chinese versions of FedEx or whatever, right, 664 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 2: and Temu is kind of doing that but in you know, 665 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 2: in order to make it convenient for Chinese sellers. The 666 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 2: way that they the way that they've sort of like 667 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: set this up is they have a warehouse in Guandong 668 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: and every seller like ships it to this warehouse and 669 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: then Temu deals with getting it shipped overseas. The problem 670 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 2: is that this is really slow, right. It takes like 671 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 2: two weeks for things to show up, and that's not 672 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 2: that slow by like normal standards, but this is the. 673 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 3: US American standards. That is like a tortoise nightmareishly slow 674 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 3: because we have gotten used to a level I'd say gratification, 675 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 3: but like yeah, like this is a level of power 676 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 3: that was previously reserved for like Chinese emperors, and we 677 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 3: fucking use it every day to order fucking nailers from Amazon, 678 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 3: right or in my case, so a whole bunch of 679 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 3: materials to build a black logic which I will then 680 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 3: return as soon as my party is over. 681 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 2: Incredible, you know, And this is this is a This 682 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: is also something that's kind of new for Temu because 683 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 2: PDD was built on being able to doing sales or 684 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 2: a fast enough they can sell fruit to people. Right, 685 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 2: do you know how hard it is to sell fucking 686 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 2: fresh fruit to people? That's like it's legitimately really difficult. Well, yeah, 687 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 2: you can't. You can't ship. You can't have a two 688 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 2: week ship for can But why it is? I mean 689 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 2: you have to do a bunch of b you have 690 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 2: you have to have an actual logistics infratructure set up 691 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 2: for it, right. You can't just ship it in like 692 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 2: an Amazon boll. 693 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 3: They have to be they have to be like specifically 694 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 3: ripening along the bill. 695 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, and and and and Tim is also 696 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 2: up to do that, right, And this is and this 697 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: is an issue with all of their stuff because you 698 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: know they're they're trying to do direct to consumer sales. 699 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 2: But the thing is in China it's really fast, and 700 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: here it's slow. And the upside for Temu is that 701 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: their stuff is really cheap, right, It's unbelievably cheap. And 702 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: you know, obviously they're losing money on the sales, and 703 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: most of the money they're losing on the sales is 704 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 2: from their ad spending, not from the actual sales. And 705 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 2: this is this is where you get into again the 706 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 2: really bleak part about this, where Okay, so are these 707 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: why are these prices so low? And part of its 708 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: tech money subsidy, but a lot of it is just labor, 709 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: just pure, pure, unrivaled labor exploitation. You know, when with 710 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 2: with the Chinese workers movement, like as like a a 711 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: sort of like collective mass movement just completely broken by Tianamen. 712 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 2: And then again dream like the crackdowns through the twenty 713 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 2: tens that wiped out whatever sort of like classical workers 714 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 2: movement style thing was may have popped up from the 715 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 2: strikes in twenty eleven, like there's there's no there's no 716 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: mass countervailing force in Chinese politics to try to raise wages, 717 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 2: like independent union organizing is illegal. You will get arrested. 718 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 2: The actual unions that exist, like they all trying of 719 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 2: union federation doesn't do shit. We don't really have that 720 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 2: kind of like fake union thing here. It's like it's 721 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: like a different but you know, like they're they're I 722 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 2: don't know, this is this is this is maybe not 723 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: the time for me to try to explain China union system. 724 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 2: Like the unions are fucking bullshit. They don't do anything. 725 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 2: Like if you go to them and be like my 726 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 2: wages are too low, they'll try to get you to 727 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: like negotiate with the company directly, right like like as 728 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 2: an individual, and like it's they're nonsense. They're completely useless. 729 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 2: And you know the results of this and the results 730 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: of just like the incredible poverty of the Chinese working 731 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 2: class and the fact that you know a lot of 732 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 2: Chinese migrant workers who are people who are actually making these goods. 733 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 2: So a lot of some of it's real workers, some 734 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 2: of its migrant workers, but a lot of these people's 735 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 2: wages are lower than they otherwise would because they're drawing 736 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: revenue off of like they're off of off of like 737 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 2: the plots of land that their family has like back 738 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: in the countryside when they like when they they like 739 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: migrate to another city to to find a job. Yeah, so, 740 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 2: like all of these factors are just institutionally like smashing 741 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 2: the price of like like smashing like wages, and there's 742 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 2: no there's no fucking there's not there's nothing really there 743 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 2: to resist them and and act like, you know, it's 744 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 2: not like the Chinese working class like completely takes it 745 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 2: lying down, right, but it's like the resistance strategies are 746 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 2: trying to work as little as possible, but that doesn't 747 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 2: that's you know, and that's something that can be very 748 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: effective in the sense of like you're working a lot less, 749 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 2: but it's not something that drives up like wages. And 750 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 2: so when when you're looking at Temu and you're seeing 751 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 2: a pair of Jeanes for two dollars, like what you 752 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 2: are seeing is the raw exploitation of the Chinese working class. 753 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 2: And this is also true of like the rest of 754 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 2: the fucking shit you buy from China, right, like almost 755 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 2: all of the price of like a shirt that you're buying, 756 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 2: I mean, Chinese textile manufacturing is kind of like not 757 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 2: what it used to be right, but like you know, 758 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 2: but like you're buying like fucking some bol shit from China. 759 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: Like if you're buying from like another drop shipping company, right, 760 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 2: like the thing you're actually paying for, you're paying the 761 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 2: drop shipping company. You're not fucking paying the workers. They're 762 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 2: not they're fucking not making shit all like all of 763 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 2: the stuff that's like, I mean, it's not like one 764 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 2: hundred percent, like a huge portion of of the fact 765 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 2: that the price is higher on non Temu sites is 766 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 2: just like it's just markups because this is this is 767 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 2: just what the Chinese economy is. It's just sort of 768 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 2: like it's you know, it's it's it's it's unbelievable exploitation. 769 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 2: And this brings us to the thing we're going to 770 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 2: end today on, which is does Temo use slave labor? 771 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 2: Oh oh okay, And the answer is probably, but it's 772 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 2: hard to tell. So this has been a big thing 773 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 2: because Ten is one of the companies that the State 774 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 2: Department brought up when they were doing their investigations into 775 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: like like Sheian was the other one into like are 776 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 2: these companies using shing John slave labor? And you know 777 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: this is labor from people put in in the fucking camps. 778 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 2: I think the answer is probably because I mean, so 779 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 2: the thing is, the State Department doesn't have any actual evidence, right, 780 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 2: Like they're all and they're they're doing this incredibly what 781 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 2: We'll get into this in a second, Like, you know, 782 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 2: obviously they're doing this because this is like this is 783 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: an intra like capitalist feud thing, right. The State Department's 784 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 2: talking about this because they're pissed at China. 785 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like a nationalistic project for the United States. 786 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but Comma, it's also probably true because these like 787 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 2: and and this this is like the thing specifically with 788 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,399 Speaker 2: with PDD that we've been talking about is that they 789 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 2: don't intimus Like, they don't vet the sellers of stuff, right, 790 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 2: Like we talked about last episode that like people were 791 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 2: selling sleeping pills as date rate drugs, right, they don't 792 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: fucking vet it at all. So yeah, probably, like quite possibly. Yeah, 793 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 2: the stuff the stuff that they're selling from shing Jun, 794 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 2: and they have a pretty large presence there, like was 795 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 2: using sort of like prison slave labor from the camps there. However, Comma, 796 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,439 Speaker 2: we can't talk about prison slave labor without talking about 797 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 2: the fact that fucking every goddamn US firm also uses 798 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 2: prison slave labor. Everyone from fucking McDonald's, the Starbucks to 799 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 2: Walgreens to JC Penny, like fucking every every company, every 800 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,399 Speaker 2: American company you can fucking think of, uses slave labor 801 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: or their slave labor in their in their supply chain. 802 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 2: And they're using slave labor because in the US, under 803 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 2: the Thirteenth Amendment, slavery is legal as long as the 804 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 2: person as long as the person being enslaved is incarcerated. 805 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 2: So you know, like it doesn't fucking matter, like this 806 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 2: is this is this is the problem. It doesn't matter 807 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 2: whether you buy from the US or China. Right like 808 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 2: you're you're getting fucking slave labor. So if you if 809 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 2: you want to not do that, you're you're your only option. 810 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 2: If if you do not want to, if you do 811 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 2: not want everything you consume, like the food that you eat, 812 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 2: if you don't want, like everything that you use in 813 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 2: your daily life to be the product of unfathomed human exploitation, 814 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 2: your only option is to destroy the monstrous economic system 815 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 2: that reduces humans to commodities and tear up the fucking 816 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 2: roots of every single one of these companies from San 817 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 2: Francisco to Shanghai and burn it to the grounds. That's that. 818 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,320 Speaker 2: Those are your options, like, it's not your individual consumer choice, 819 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 2: not gonna make it any better. That's what I got. 820 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 2: I okay, all right? Well oh god, like was it 821 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 2: the Super Bowl great this year? Yeah? What a game? 822 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 4: What a game? 823 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 3: Almost almost double overtime? 824 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: That was crazy. I I don't know that was that 825 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 2: was the worst Chiefs team of all time and they 826 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 2: nobody could fucking beat them. We're so duped. We're gonna 827 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,879 Speaker 2: get Patrick Mahobe is gonna win like a fucking twelve peet. 828 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 2: It's so over for every other sports team. Better things 829 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: aren't possible unless you make them possible. 830 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 1: What Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 831 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 832 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 833 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 834 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 835 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.