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Speaker 1: I'm Sshanali Basset standing alongside PJT partner CEO Paul Taubman,

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Speaker 1: who joins me now for an exclusive interview. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for being here. It's pretty rare for you to join

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Speaker 1: us for television. It's also remarkable that eight years ago

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Speaker 1: you started PGT, took it public, and now you've tripled

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Speaker 1: your headcount. You're much bigger than you were and are

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Speaker 1: having a record half year at a time where most

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Speaker 1: investment banks are facing a prolonged slump in revenue. So

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Speaker 1: can you keep it up?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if we can keep it up.

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Speaker 2: We're going to certainly try to. But first of all,

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Speaker 2: thank you for having me on this morning.

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Speaker 3: Shanali. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 2: It's almost eight years, as you point out, and we

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Speaker 2: have a plan and we're just moving forward with the plan.

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Speaker 2: But if you look at our first six months, it

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Speaker 2: was driven by we have a leading restructuring practice and

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Speaker 2: we're increasingly taking share from others, and we're trying to

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Speaker 2: get at the forefront of liability management, trying to work

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Speaker 2: with companies to reaquitize and restructure their balance sheets and

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Speaker 2: deal with the fact that interest rates continue to grind higher,

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Speaker 2: and we're growing out a leading strategic advisory business that's

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Speaker 2: still in the early innings. So even though we're dealing

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Speaker 2: with a lot of the same macro headwinds that others are,

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Speaker 2: we're able to gain share and continue to move forward

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Speaker 2: and continue to advance our position.

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Speaker 1: You know, we'll talk more about the restructuring wave because seriously,

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Speaker 1: these idea of higher interest rates are going to have

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Speaker 1: some impacts over a long period of time. But also

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Speaker 1: remarkable is that you're hiring. You are hiring at a

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Speaker 1: pretty rapid clip at a time when most investment banks

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Speaker 1: are letting people go by the tens of thousands. How

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Speaker 1: significant are your hiring plans this year?

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Speaker 3: Oh, they're quite significant.

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Speaker 2: So if you take a step back, we have tripled

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Speaker 2: our headcount in eight years, We've tripled the revenues, share

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Speaker 2: prices up nearly four times. And if you look at

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Speaker 2: the size we are today, we're still a half to

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Speaker 2: a third the size of many of our direct competitors,

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Speaker 2: and where a fraction the size of the large banks.

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Speaker 2: So we see tremendous opportunity to grow. This is an

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Speaker 2: incredibly conducive environment meant to grow, you need to see

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Speaker 2: m and a slow down in order to hire the

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Speaker 2: best M and A bankers. And that's the ultimate paradox.

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Speaker 2: And the reason for that, Shinali, is because the switching

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Speaker 2: costs are much lower when you're dealing with a low

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Speaker 2: velocity environment trying to get a best in class M

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Speaker 2: and A banker to leave in the midst of an

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Speaker 2: M and a bull run when they're loaded up with

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Speaker 2: a whole host of mandates, the switching costs to extract themselves,

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Speaker 2: they end up leaving their clients in the lurch. So

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Speaker 2: we're taking advantage of the fact that even though the

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Speaker 2: environment is quite challenging in the near term, we know

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Speaker 2: it's going to inflect. We know it's going to come back,

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Speaker 2: and we want to continue to press forward and continue

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Speaker 2: to grow the franchise.

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Speaker 1: Is this going to be a record hiring year and

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Speaker 1: can some of this momentum continue even into next year.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly going to be a record and we

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Speaker 2: intend to continue to press forward. Now, how many individuals

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Speaker 2: we attract to the platform, really we don't control fully

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Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, we have a

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Speaker 2: very clear sens as to who would work well on

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Speaker 2: the platform, who's best in breed, who's best in class,

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Speaker 2: who shares our vision, shares our values, and you cannot

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Speaker 2: end up turning this into a quota as to how

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Speaker 2: many you hire each year. But there's no doubt that

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Speaker 2: we're still relatively small compared to the opportunity set.

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Speaker 3: So if you ask me, are we going to be.

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Speaker 2: Much larger three five years from now, the answer is absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Bring us under the hood. Because it's a pretty fascinating dynamic.

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Speaker 1: You have such high profile bankers leaving Goldman, Sachs and

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Speaker 1: Credits wezel for different reasons, and so what are bankers

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Speaker 1: telling you as you're having these conversations.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you step way back, there are a few

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Speaker 2: trends which have been in evidence for the last decade.

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Speaker 2: The first is that increasingly clients want to work with

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Speaker 2: smaller firms, and we started to see that coming out

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Speaker 2: of the global financial crisis. That's only picked up speed

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Speaker 2: over time. So that's the first point is you need

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Speaker 2: to have buy in from your client base. I think

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Speaker 2: the second, which is a corollary trend that most individuals

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Speaker 2: didn't really pick up on, is if the most sophisticated,

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Speaker 2: consequential companies around the globe are going to work with

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Speaker 2: smaller firms, they're going to expect the sophistication of a

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Speaker 2: larger firm, So that means you need to continue to

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Speaker 2: build out the breadth of services, the caliber of individual.

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Speaker 2: You need to make sure that you can follow your

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Speaker 2: clients anywhere around the globe. So those two things have

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Speaker 2: continued to prove out, and as bankers at balls bracket

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Speaker 2: firms increasingly see that their clients would be highly supportive

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Speaker 2: of a move to a smaller firm, the question becomes,

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Speaker 2: what's the catalyst, what's going to get you out of

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Speaker 2: a comfortable position to take a jump, take a leap,

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Speaker 2: do something different. And I like to say that we're

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Speaker 2: in that exquisite sweet spot, which is we're big enough

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Speaker 2: so that no one's going to miss a beat. They're

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Speaker 2: going to have access to working with some the most

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Speaker 2: sophisticated colleagues around the globe. But we have so much

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Speaker 2: white space that they can get in early, not be

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Speaker 2: jocking for position, and do what they love to do,

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Speaker 2: which is be bankers, not managers.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of being a banker, bankers have been writing a

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Speaker 1: lot on Wall Street, always, always, always, about everything, But

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Speaker 1: you know, when you think about what they're actually talking

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Speaker 1: about now it's returned to work. How often do they

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Speaker 1: have to be in the building and how flexible do

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Speaker 1: you have to be to keep them around?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question.

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Speaker 2: I made a commitment in the depths of COVID of

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Speaker 2: two things. One was we were learning so much from

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Speaker 2: how to work remotely that we were never going back

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Speaker 2: precisely to how we did work pre COVID. On the

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Speaker 2: other hand, if you're not in the office most of

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Speaker 2: the time, and if you're not creating those personal connections,

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Speaker 2: and if you're not learning through an apprenticeship model, you're

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Speaker 2: not doing it the right way.

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Speaker 3: So what we've been continuing to.

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Speaker 2: Evolve to is a model which starts with being in

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Speaker 2: the office, because.

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Speaker 3: That's where you learn.

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Speaker 2: That's the best way to support the clients, that's the

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Speaker 2: best way to train and develop individuals, and there's no

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Speaker 2: latitude for people not being back in the office. Having

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Speaker 2: said that, you can't allow technology to continue to invade

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Speaker 2: your personal space. Be on call seven days a week,

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Speaker 2: be expected to get on a zoom call on a

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Speaker 2: moment's notice, and not have some release valve.

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Speaker 3: So what we did.

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Speaker 2: About a year ago was we turned Fridays in office

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Speaker 2: to be optional. You could work from home on Fridays,

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Speaker 2: but work from home starts with work. You may be home,

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Speaker 2: but you're working. And in the dog days of summer,

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Speaker 2: which is after the summer interns leave until Labor Day,

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Speaker 2: we also have a work from home option, and I

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Speaker 2: think by acknowledging that we can use technology to be

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Speaker 2: more productive but making the centrality of being in the office,

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Speaker 2: we can try and find that sweet spot.

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Speaker 1: It's about to get busier slow after a big deal slump.

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Speaker 1: How fast do you actually expect murders and acquisitions to

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Speaker 1: start coming back to the market.

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Speaker 2: The pace of activity and dialogue is clearly picking up.

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Speaker 2: We're looking at levels today that we haven't seen in

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Speaker 2: more than a decade. So M and A volumes today

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Speaker 2: are not much greater than they were coming out of

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Speaker 2: the global financial crisis. If you benchmarket relative to GDP

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Speaker 2: or market capitalizations, it's at lows we haven't seen. I

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Speaker 2: think ever, so I'm not really going out on a

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Speaker 2: limb by saying it's going to get better from where

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Speaker 2: we are today.

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Speaker 3: There's no doubt about that. It can't get worse.

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Speaker 2: There's an old saying you can't get hurt jumping out

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Speaker 2: of a basement. I don't think you know we are

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Speaker 2: in danger of going lower than where we are today.

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Speaker 2: The question is how quickly does it inflect. And you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the things about M and a ISS a

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Speaker 2: pro cyclical business transaction activity begets more transaction activity. There's

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Speaker 2: the ultimate fomo fear of missing out, which is if

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Speaker 2: your competitor is transacting, if they're growing, if they're investing,

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Speaker 2: if another private equity firm in the alternative space is

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Speaker 2: committing capital, it tends to lead to more activity. I

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Speaker 2: think we have the conditions that are nearly ripe for that,

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Speaker 2: and it wouldn't surprise me if sometime between now and

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Speaker 2: the end of the year you see a very sharp inflection.

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Speaker 1: There is one place things could get worse. That is

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Speaker 1: with restructuring, higher interest rates, a whole bunch of forces

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Speaker 1: that are pushing companies to either restructure or go bankrupt.

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Speaker 1: How significant is this wave of distress going to be?

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Speaker 3: What does it look like?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we're in for an extended wave of

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Speaker 2: elevated restructuring relative to where we are today. But where

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Speaker 2: we are today is at historic lows in terms of

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Speaker 2: default rates and the like. We're still feasting off of

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Speaker 2: the easy money environment, relatively low interest rates. But there's

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Speaker 2: a day of reckoning and we're going to see a

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Speaker 2: meaningful uptick in restructuring activity. But again, to put it

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Speaker 2: in perspective, that's relative to historic lows. Often get asked

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Speaker 2: the question, can an upswing in M and A coexist

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Speaker 2: with an upswing in restructuring? And my answer is pretty

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Speaker 2: simple is right now, they're both at historic lows. We're

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Speaker 2: seeing historically low default rates, and we're seeing historically low

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Speaker 2: M and A volumes, and I think both of them

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Speaker 2: can sort of snap back more to traditional long term

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Speaker 2: levels and both start to be engines for our firm.

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Speaker 1: Now, Paul, before you left and started PJT, you were

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Speaker 1: very senior at Morgan Stanley. You were seen as a

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Speaker 1: CEO candidate. Now fast forward more than eight years and

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Speaker 1: you have Morgan Stanley going through its own CEO transition.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the future of Morgan Stanley looks like?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think James has done a terrific job. I

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Speaker 2: think the firm is firing on all cylinders, notwithstanding the

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Speaker 2: difficult macro backdrop, and I have no doubt that they'll

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Speaker 2: continue to thrive going forward. I think the question for

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Speaker 2: our firm is what do we do and how do

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Speaker 2: we thrive going forward? And I'm confident that we have

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Speaker 2: so much open running space ahead of us that that's

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Speaker 2: what I'm focused on. That's that's where my attention is.

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Speaker 1: How are you thinking about number two already?

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Speaker 2: I'm always thinking about a succession. I'm always thinking about,

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Speaker 2: you know, who's gonna succeed me, because we're building this

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Speaker 2: firm to last, to be durable, to be sustainable, and

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Speaker 2: that means that you need to be able to train

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Speaker 2: develop a next generation. Most of our growth has come

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Speaker 2: from external candidates, but that's reflective of the fact that

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Speaker 2: we're only eight years old. But the goal is over

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Speaker 2: the next eight years, as more and more of those

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Speaker 2: individuals who join at the most entry level positions, they

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Speaker 2: get to grow up in our firm, their train. They're

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Speaker 2: developed to be the world class banker and they have

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Speaker 2: only one home and that's PJAT.

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Speaker 3: So that's what I'm focused speaking of.

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Speaker 1: This is the last week for the interns. The interns

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Speaker 1: are starting to, you know, leave Manhattan now and all

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Speaker 1: the cities they're in. Do you have any advice for them?

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Speaker 1: Because there is a lot of anxiety about jobs that

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Speaker 1: can get coming out of these cycles.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: We have our firm nearly one hundred summer interns around

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Speaker 2: the globe and that's about one percent of the resumes

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Speaker 2: that we get. We get close to ten thousand applications

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Speaker 2: every year and about one hundred show up at our

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Speaker 2: firm for the summer. And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: we've initiated, which I think is terrific, is that at

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Speaker 2: the end of the program, every one of our interns

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Speaker 2: is obligated to then spend time doing community service in.

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Speaker 3: A project of their choice.

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Speaker 2: And to me, that's one of the things that I

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Speaker 2: would tell everyone on Wall Street to take away, which

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Speaker 2: is you can go at it really hard, be very

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Speaker 2: focused on your career, but there's.

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Speaker 3: A bigger world out there.

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Speaker 2: You're part of a broader community, and find a way

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Speaker 2: to do something to give back to your community.

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Speaker 1: Anchors are people too, Yes, absolutely, Paul, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for your time. It was great to sit with

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Speaker 1: you in such a very interview with you at a

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Speaker 1: really historic time for your companies.

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Speaker 3: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: That is Paul town and he is the CEO and

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Speaker 1: founder and chairman of p J t Partners,