Speaker 1: If we're not finishing the work that matters to us,
Speaker 1: we can get um what I call creative constipation. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have
Speaker 1: recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like
Speaker 1: garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think
Speaker 1: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 1: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking
Speaker 1: our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf. M Omega Institute is
Speaker 1: the nation's leading center for holistic studies and one of
Speaker 1: my favorite places on the planet and a place that
Speaker 1: we will be doing a workshop next summer. They have
Speaker 1: a forty year track record of helping more than a
Speaker 1: million people learn, grow and get inspired through a wide
Speaker 1: variety of workshops and events, and now they are launching
Speaker 1: their first podcast, dropping in Join long time public radio
Speaker 1: journalist Karen Michael as she sits down with the great thinkers,
Speaker 1: creative talent, and social visionaries who teach it Omega. You
Speaker 1: can drop in on classes and hear intimate interviews exploring
Speaker 1: the many ways to awaken the best in human spirit.
Speaker 1: Remember to check out their new podcast, Dropping In. Season
Speaker 1: one features artists, climate change provocateurs, spiritual teachers, health experts
Speaker 1: and more. Dropping In is available on Apple Podcasts and
Speaker 1: most popular podcast apps. Subscribe today. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is Charlie Gilki, the founder
Speaker 1: of Productive Flourishing, a company that helps professional creatives, leaders,
Speaker 1: and change makers take meaningful action on work that matters.
Speaker 1: He's the author of Start Finishing, How to Go from
Speaker 1: Idea to Done. He's widely cited and outlets such as
Speaker 1: INC Magazine, Time, Forbes, The Guardian, Life Hacker, and more.
Speaker 1: He's also an Army veteran and near PhD in philosophy.
Speaker 1: He lives in Portland, Oregon. Hi, Charlie, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me here today. Eric, I've
Speaker 1: been looking forward to this for a long time. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you on. Your book is called
Speaker 1: start finishing, how to go from idea to done. And
Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that in a moment, but let's
Speaker 1: start like we always do, with the parable. There is
Speaker 1: a grandfather who talking with his grandson, he says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second, and he looks up at his
Speaker 1: grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And
Speaker 1: the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like
Speaker 1: to start off by asking you what that parable means
Speaker 1: to you in your life and in the work that
Speaker 1: you do. I love this parable for many different reasons.
Speaker 1: And actually I wrote about this a few years ago,
Speaker 1: and I think it's about the time you started this podcast,
Speaker 1: so it was in that pace, and so I find
Speaker 1: it interesting and useful on that first level about what
Speaker 1: are we feeding in ourselves and what are we seeing
Speaker 1: in the world. But there's a deeper level I think
Speaker 1: to the parable is what are we feeding in other people,
Speaker 1: And so I like to think about it in both ways,
Speaker 1: because if we feed the dark wolf in other people
Speaker 1: by how we show up and how we project who
Speaker 1: we think they are to them, then that's the wolf
Speaker 1: that gets fed in others, and it's those are the
Speaker 1: wolves that end up biting us, you know. And so
Speaker 1: there's both this altruistic way of thinking about it and
Speaker 1: there's a self interested way and think about it. Altruistic
Speaker 1: way is how do we leave each person better off
Speaker 1: after interacting with us than before we found them or
Speaker 1: before they found us? So that's one, but the second
Speaker 1: sort of self centered way is how do we orient
Speaker 1: ourselves and navigate in this world such that we are
Speaker 1: feeding the good wolf that ends up not biting us
Speaker 1: nearly as much as the bad wolf. M that's a
Speaker 1: great way to look at it and think about it.
Speaker 1: I really like that, that sense of of what are
Speaker 1: we feeding in others? And we do tend to sort
Speaker 1: of feed certain things and others. I'm thinking of a
Speaker 1: quote and I feel like it's attributed to Nelson Mandela,
Speaker 1: but that I might be completely wrong about that, but
Speaker 1: it's something along the lines of it never hurts to
Speaker 1: look for the good and someone else they tend to
Speaker 1: act the better because of it. Yeah, I find that
Speaker 1: to be absolutely true, and especially in times like these.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's been over the last few years, um,
Speaker 1: just this sense of darkness out there in the world,
Speaker 1: and I think that has been accelerated for a lot
Speaker 1: of different reasons. And we didn't listen any need to
Speaker 1: go into the political landscape side of things, um. And
Speaker 1: it's also been my experience that there are plenty of
Speaker 1: actively good people out there doing great work, and there
Speaker 1: are plenty of people who are just confused and with
Speaker 1: just a little bit of guidance or which is a
Speaker 1: little bit of inspiration or a little bit of kindness,
Speaker 1: become those active good doers. And if we approach people
Speaker 1: with a sense of hostility, a sense of us and
Speaker 1: them were more likely to take those people that are
Speaker 1: you know, doing the best I can and maybe you know,
Speaker 1: have their heads down and just wanting to get through
Speaker 1: the day. We can either alienate them again, get the
Speaker 1: bad wolf, or maybe we can pull them in and say,
Speaker 1: you know, we're in this together. And it's a quote
Speaker 1: often attributed to Plato, but it's actually Ian McLaren, which
Speaker 1: is be kind because everyone you meet us fighting a
Speaker 1: hard battle, right, And I think if we sort of
Speaker 1: look at it that people have their own things going on,
Speaker 1: and they're fighting their own battles. And if we approach
Speaker 1: with kindness, but much more likely to get the good wolf,
Speaker 1: the kindness to see the goodness and others as opposed
Speaker 1: to just have the defensive shield and the biding coming
Speaker 1: back at us. I couldn't agree more. I'm gonna take
Speaker 1: a brief diversion for us before we go into the book,
Speaker 1: because you mentioned in the book of quote and you
Speaker 1: say it's from one of your favorite books, which also
Speaker 1: happens to be one of my favorite books, which is
Speaker 1: The Doubt a Chain, And so I wondered what it
Speaker 1: is about that book that you love, or any particular
Speaker 1: sections from that book. But I thought we'd talked about
Speaker 1: that for a second as a place to go first. Wow, Eric,
Speaker 1: I think we could spend the whole podcast talking about
Speaker 1: the dow a Ching, And I love that we're not
Speaker 1: going to do that. I don't think we're gonna do that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've read The Doubtating so many times I
Speaker 1: can't count. So there are a few things that I
Speaker 1: really love about it. UM. One is there's the approach
Speaker 1: that I love and and my favorite translation is by
Speaker 1: Derek Lynn from I think It's Skylight Press, because what
Speaker 1: unlike Stephen Mitchell's version, UM, he tries his best he
Speaker 1: can to translate the Chinese the way that it was
Speaker 1: literally written and then have interpretations on the right side.
Speaker 1: So the left side of the page is the as
Speaker 1: close to as possible Chinese translation, and on the right
Speaker 1: side is commentary on that, and so you get to
Speaker 1: see the beauty of the language in that way. So
Speaker 1: very very good translation. UM is one of the I
Speaker 1: think eight copies I have of it. I'll have to
Speaker 1: look at that because I am a fan of the
Speaker 1: Stephen Mitchell version, but I should check that out for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What I love about it is one, it says a
Speaker 1: lot in a little amount of time, and as someone
Speaker 1: who is not always well practiced at being six inct,
Speaker 1: I appreciate UM. And the other thing about it is,
Speaker 1: you know, writing of that time. I'm a trained philosopher
Speaker 1: by nature, so I have an m a And philosophy
Speaker 1: and I'm completing I'm a PhD candidate in philosophy, and
Speaker 1: so UM, what I love about works of that era
Speaker 1: is that they saw the connections between individuals and societies
Speaker 1: and communities, and so they can, like if you read
Speaker 1: Plato's Republic, he's talking on the one hand about a
Speaker 1: good city or a good policy, but what he's doing
Speaker 1: is showing that what's true of cities is true of individuals,
Speaker 1: and what's true of individuals is true of cities. And
Speaker 1: so there's this way where in the data ching lots
Speaker 1: of will talk about a city or talk about something
Speaker 1: that seems to be completely remote from a person, but
Speaker 1: you understand it more because he didn't focus on the person.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can see that, you know. So I
Speaker 1: think three quotes that I love. One is because of
Speaker 1: Stage knows her faults, she is faultless, understanding that if
Speaker 1: you understand those faults and challenges that you have and
Speaker 1: you actually acknowledge them and build around them, they don't
Speaker 1: trip you up nearly as much. And there's the other
Speaker 1: one about the cup overflowing. What's that one. I don't
Speaker 1: know that one nearly as well, but it's like too
Speaker 1: much water in the cup in and and overfolows and spills.
Speaker 1: And so it's about boundaries and it's about completeness in
Speaker 1: a way. Um, and then this is actually from Mitchell's version,
Speaker 1: is the master does his work and then steps away.
Speaker 1: And for so many of us that get so wrapped
Speaker 1: up into our work and into the meaning making that
Speaker 1: we're doing and not being able to step away. It's
Speaker 1: just one of those good things of being able to
Speaker 1: remind myself in that moment, like a, haven't done my
Speaker 1: work and be is it time to step away and
Speaker 1: let it unfold? Because me trying to strangle hold it
Speaker 1: into a certain way is going to keep it from
Speaker 1: being what it might become. Yeah, that's a great, great point.
Speaker 1: And I love that sort of overall idea of do
Speaker 1: your work and and step away, which is reflected in
Speaker 1: a lot of spiritual traditions, but not reflected as often
Speaker 1: perhaps in the work world, which is really where it
Speaker 1: is really you know, particularly uh sage for our time,
Speaker 1: which is we can't control results would be the way
Speaker 1: we'd say it in the business world. We can't control results.
Speaker 1: We can only control, you know, the actions we take,
Speaker 1: which is such a profound truth. And when we understand
Speaker 1: and live according to that, BOYD, is our stress level
Speaker 1: change absolutely. And I think the more something matters to you,
Speaker 1: the more you have to focus on, like doing your
Speaker 1: best but letting go of the rest, right, Like did
Speaker 1: you do you know what you could do in accordance
Speaker 1: with your values, when in accordance with your constraints and
Speaker 1: accordance with your challenges to make a certain outcome happen.
Speaker 1: But above and beyond that, it's out of your control, Um,
Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, like every especially when you look
Speaker 1: at the spiritual traditions that were formed around you know,
Speaker 1: around zero BC, Like there's a five d R plus
Speaker 1: or minus crucible period where they're saying many of the
Speaker 1: same things. UM independently co created a lot of times
Speaker 1: and at that time they knew way better than we
Speaker 1: did it. Like nothing is boundary lists, like everything is
Speaker 1: contained except for you know, gods and things like that.
Speaker 1: But like in the human realm, everything has a limit
Speaker 1: and we humans have limits. And where we find our
Speaker 1: suffering is when we pretend as if those limits don't exist,
Speaker 1: or when we try to push past those limits and
Speaker 1: need to be reminded that we are in fact humans.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. It makes me think of to
Speaker 1: quote the doubt aching things like true mastery can be
Speaker 1: gained by letting things go their own way. You know,
Speaker 1: it can't be gained by interfering. And again, I think
Speaker 1: on one level, you hear that and you go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't do anything. And I don't think that's what's
Speaker 1: being said. I think the way you just said it
Speaker 1: is really good. It's sort of the serenity prayer, which
Speaker 1: I bring up on the show all the time because
Speaker 1: I just think it's so wise, right, know what you
Speaker 1: can control, you know what you can't, and stay on
Speaker 1: the on the control side, spend your time over there
Speaker 1: and don't spend your time on the other side. And boy,
Speaker 1: a lot of things seem to sort of solve themselves
Speaker 1: when you do that. Yeah. Well, I mean one last thing.
Speaker 1: My my other quote I think it's relevant right now
Speaker 1: is um, he who masters the world I count as strong.
Speaker 1: He who masters himself I count is truly powerful. And
Speaker 1: there's that sense where I think we lose our balance,
Speaker 1: we lose our serenity, we lose our power when we're
Speaker 1: so focused on changing external circumstances and changing those types
Speaker 1: of things. And this is a weird tension that we
Speaker 1: have to live in, is these creative human beings as
Speaker 1: we walk on this planet is there. There's just a
Speaker 1: series of tensions, and like, you're absolutely right, we can't
Speaker 1: just be that bump on the log just letting life
Speaker 1: go bias. That's not at all what's being recommended, right,
Speaker 1: But what is being recommended is, you know, no matter
Speaker 1: what sense of agency we take in this world, it's
Speaker 1: always going to be limited, and and our vision, our grasp,
Speaker 1: our hopes, our dreams are always going to be on
Speaker 1: the other side of those limits. And so it's finding
Speaker 1: that balance of like, where have I pushed in the
Speaker 1: right ways in the world, um again in accordance with
Speaker 1: values and my doll or my my nature, and where
Speaker 1: do I need to let things unfold? I guess the
Speaker 1: fifth quote there's like it's always sees like you. The
Speaker 1: best leaders this is from the Daoist tradition. The best
Speaker 1: leaders are those ones where you don't really know they're
Speaker 1: there and everyone's saying we did this right, we did this,
Speaker 1: and and there's not that sense of domination by a leader,
Speaker 1: and they don't have that super charismatic you know on
Speaker 1: stage present that we in America really love to see
Speaker 1: in leaders. That's not from the Dallast tradition. The pinnacle leader.
Speaker 1: The pinnacle leader is the one whose nature, in whose
Speaker 1: guidance and who's behind the scenes things empowers other people
Speaker 1: to take action, to develop all to get things done
Speaker 1: and realize that they don't need someone cracking the whip
Speaker 1: behind them. They don't need to be led, they need
Speaker 1: to be let go. That's wonderful. Well, let's move on
Speaker 1: from that to your book. Even though, like I said,
Speaker 1: like we could probably trade quotes from the dad reaching
Speaker 1: with each other all day long, I had like five more,
Speaker 1: and I was like, all right, hold on, let's let's
Speaker 1: move on. So you mentioned getting things done. Uh, there
Speaker 1: was some phrase like that in in your last couple
Speaker 1: of sentences, and that's kind of your book start finishing,
Speaker 1: how to go from idea to done? And you say
Speaker 1: very early in the book, the reason I'm guiding you
Speaker 1: to finish rather than start is because I'm near certain
Speaker 1: that you've already started quite a few things. And so
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about that. Hi, I'm certain
Speaker 1: that people have started things, or why I'm focusing on
Speaker 1: finishing just your idea of why finishing is so important.
Speaker 1: So finishing is incredibly important because one, well, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons but one is because when we
Speaker 1: look at the impact we're trying to make in the world,
Speaker 1: that only comes from finished projects, from the things we
Speaker 1: have done, not from the things we are thinking about
Speaker 1: doing or that we've half done. So if you're starting
Speaker 1: a nonprofit, if you're starting a business, writing a book,
Speaker 1: whatever thing that is, the impact comes once you finish it.
Speaker 1: And so we you know, in many different ways, we
Speaker 1: want to go out and we want to either make
Speaker 1: a dance in the universe or leave our fingerprints on it,
Speaker 1: depending upon your your feelings about you know, our our
Speaker 1: agency in the world. But we forget like just my
Speaker 1: only doing a bunch of stuff is not nearly as
Speaker 1: important as like finishing it, seeing it and getting it
Speaker 1: to the people and the people who need to see it,
Speaker 1: including ourselves. I think a second piece about it is
Speaker 1: um mastery, Like we only get mastery from finishing things,
Speaker 1: not from like half doing a lot of things. And
Speaker 1: so if you look at mastery is one of the
Speaker 1: basic human drives, as Dan Pink does in his book drive, Um,
Speaker 1: it's super important for us just to be on that
Speaker 1: curve of you know, continual improvement. But again, we don't
Speaker 1: just improve in our brains no matter what. Well, there
Speaker 1: are some things we can improve just by thinking, but
Speaker 1: most things we actually have to make something. We have
Speaker 1: to do something, we have to like present something, we
Speaker 1: have to show our work, right. I think another piece
Speaker 1: that is important to talk about, and this is especially
Speaker 1: for those creative souls out there, is if we're not
Speaker 1: finishing the work that matters to us, we can get,
Speaker 1: um what I call creative constipation. And it's what it
Speaker 1: sounds like, right, Um. It's you take in a bunch
Speaker 1: of ideas and inspirations and hunches and all the ted
Speaker 1: talks and all the podcast and all the books and
Speaker 1: all the things, right, and you don't actually push those
Speaker 1: ideas out into some form in the world. And just
Speaker 1: like physical constipation, you get toxic and you start, you know,
Speaker 1: not wanting to take on new ideas. And and we
Speaker 1: as the spiritual, creative human beings that we are, we're
Speaker 1: either creating something or we're destroying something. There's a reason
Speaker 1: why our spiritual traditions tie creativity and destruction together because
Speaker 1: they're like one and the same force just depend on
Speaker 1: how do you use it. And if you're not finishing
Speaker 1: that work, if you're not creating your best work. You're
Speaker 1: going to be destroying other things. You're gonna be destroying
Speaker 1: your relationships through resentments and frustrations and all the things
Speaker 1: that happened when you get bitter and toxic. And if
Speaker 1: it's your own resources, it's your time. You know you'll
Speaker 1: find it. You'll figure out like, Wow, I've done it
Speaker 1: yet another Netflix binge, or have done yet another Facebook
Speaker 1: crawl and I don't feel good. Or you do retail
Speaker 1: therapy because you're trying to buy something to feel that
Speaker 1: whole that's in yourself, which is really ironic because most
Speaker 1: of us tell ourselves that we had more time and
Speaker 1: more money, we would do the thing right, whatever that
Speaker 1: thing is, we would do it. But then when we
Speaker 1: don't do it, we destroy the resources and time that
Speaker 1: we already have. But lastly, and most importantly, I think
Speaker 1: the object of destruction that will lash onto the most
Speaker 1: is ourselves to the stories that we tell ourselves, that
Speaker 1: limiting beliefs through our sense of own capabilities and the
Speaker 1: labels that will give to ourselves. Being in the process
Speaker 1: of finishing the work that really matters to you and
Speaker 1: getting out some of this work that your soul calls
Speaker 1: to do. It it's not just about economic livelihood and
Speaker 1: things like that. Is actually, I think a much deeper
Speaker 1: human need, much for lack of better word, spiritual human
Speaker 1: need that if it's undone, will leave you unsatisfied and
Speaker 1: frustrated and really resentful that you spent yet another week
Speaker 1: really rocking that to do list, but at the end
Speaker 1: of the week looking up and saying, like, but did
Speaker 1: it matter? Those things that matter most to me, I
Speaker 1: didn't spend a minute on them, but I've been quote
Speaker 1: unquote productive all week. Let's talk about getting things done,
Speaker 1: going from idea to done. You say, we don't do ideas,
Speaker 1: what we do projects. Yeah, And I think that's the
Speaker 1: thing is, like we take on all those ideas, we
Speaker 1: take on all those things, and unfortunately some of us
Speaker 1: to quickly attach some commitment juice to those ideas, right
Speaker 1: like just because it's a great idea, that means we
Speaker 1: should do it, or we don't even separate that moment
Speaker 1: of time from getting the idea to starting to research
Speaker 1: what to do with the idea, starting to make it
Speaker 1: to do list right and just jump right into that
Speaker 1: um And the beauty of it is as the types
Speaker 1: of beings that we are, we can hold onto a
Speaker 1: practical infinity of ideas. The downside is projects have to
Speaker 1: be done through time and space, and there's only so
Speaker 1: many that we are going to be able to do.
Speaker 1: And so part of the issue here is that you know,
Speaker 1: we are these unlimited to sentience in this very limited body,
Speaker 1: and so um, yeah, we don't do ideas. We do projects.
Speaker 1: And the second you start talking about projects, you start
Speaker 1: talking about time, you start talking about schedule, and you
Speaker 1: start talking about space, you start talking about resources and
Speaker 1: things like that. And the grace is that we can
Speaker 1: hold on to the beauty of those ideas and hold
Speaker 1: on to all of that joy around them, but not
Speaker 1: fall into the trap of thinking that we can do
Speaker 1: all of the ideas and end up frustrated because we're
Speaker 1: caring too much. Right, And I think the other way
Speaker 1: that gets in our way is that thinking about an
Speaker 1: idea is generally fun and pleasurable, you know, thinking about
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that,
Speaker 1: it will be like this, it's generally fun and pleasurable.
Speaker 1: And as you say in the book, as we get
Speaker 1: into doing you know you call it our best work.
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that it's easy. A lot of times it's
Speaker 1: really hard. And so you know, doing and finishing is
Speaker 1: a lot harder than thinking about and dreaming about. Absolutely
Speaker 1: And there's this really counterintuitive thing that like, the more
Speaker 1: it matters to you, the more you're going to thrash.
Speaker 1: And by thrash, I mean that metal work, that flailing,
Speaker 1: that quote unquote research. You know, Um, all the stalling
Speaker 1: you might do with an idea or a project that
Speaker 1: doesn't actually push the project forward. Um, we don't thrash
Speaker 1: about taking out the garbage or doing the dishes of
Speaker 1: the laundry, like we either do it or don't do it.
Speaker 1: We might be frustrated about it, but it doesn't cause
Speaker 1: a mini existential crisis. But when we start thinking about
Speaker 1: you know, starting a business or starting a podcast, or
Speaker 1: writing the book, or getting married or you know, moving
Speaker 1: across the country or finally getting our kids off the couch,
Speaker 1: you know, and off the college, that actually does invoke
Speaker 1: that who am I? Who am I to do this
Speaker 1: is at the right time? Do I have what it takes?
Speaker 1: Maybe someone else can do it. You know, we start
Speaker 1: going into all of those sort of maneuvers about it,
Speaker 1: and that's not a sign that it's not the right project, which, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I think is the code that many people receive from that.
Speaker 1: And I don't know where we get it because I
Speaker 1: haven't been able to find it literally said this way, Eric,
Speaker 1: But somewhere along the way, I think many of us
Speaker 1: have gotten into this trap that like, if it's meant
Speaker 1: to be for us, that it's supposed to be easy, right,
Speaker 1: that it's just supposed to be super clear and you
Speaker 1: know what you're doing and it's easy, and it just
Speaker 1: sort of unfolds in this beautiful way. I hate it
Speaker 1: because a lot of times the things that you're most
Speaker 1: here to do are going to be the ones to
Speaker 1: thrash about, and they're going to be the hardest thing
Speaker 1: that you do. Now, I don't think we should be
Speaker 1: going out there and using difficulty and challenge as one
Speaker 1: of those tags to find out like if a project
Speaker 1: is worth doing, because you may end up in that
Speaker 1: place to where your best work flows with ease and
Speaker 1: grace and things like that. So I'm not going to
Speaker 1: deny that possibility. But for many of us, actually it's hard. Um,
Speaker 1: And why it's so hard is like, well, unless you
Speaker 1: live in the Midwest, and that's a whole another conversation.
Speaker 1: But most of us don't attach much status or image
Speaker 1: to like how nicely laid out our trash cans are
Speaker 1: out front, right, we just put it out there, the
Speaker 1: trash Man's gonna come like. It doesn't say anything about
Speaker 1: who we are. But when it comes to our best work,
Speaker 1: when it comes to especially our creative work, as well,
Speaker 1: it says something about us, how well it's done, how
Speaker 1: artistic it is, how statically pleasing it is, how whether
Speaker 1: it does it like we attach our identity and our
Speaker 1: moral worth to the work itself, and that's a huge
Speaker 1: pit to fall into, because if it's not quite right,
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't live up to the ideal of
Speaker 1: perfection and so and so forth, what does it say
Speaker 1: about you? By the very nature of a lot of
Speaker 1: these creative projects, you start out, necessarily in a lot
Speaker 1: of cases not as good. And the only way, as
Speaker 1: you said earlier, the only way to get there is
Speaker 1: to do it. You know that this video is probably
Speaker 1: watched by countless people, but it's the Ira Glass video
Speaker 1: where he talks about the creative gap, and he basically
Speaker 1: says creative people have good taste, they know what's good,
Speaker 1: so they start doing something creative and what they're doing
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like that, and they go, I'm not any
Speaker 1: good at this right, when the reality is it's it
Speaker 1: just takes time. You have to go through that period.
Speaker 1: We had David Cadavy on the show who wrote a
Speaker 1: book about the Heart to start and talks about you know,
Speaker 1: you got to give yourself sometimes permission to suck. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and anything worth doing is worth doing badly at the beginning, right,
Speaker 1: And so absolutely, I don't know where we get this from. Eric, Well,
Speaker 1: I do know. It's it's the stupid talent myth that
Speaker 1: I can go on a whole rant about, right, But
Speaker 1: the talent myth is basically, there are some people who
Speaker 1: got the goods, they got the modi, they got the talent,
Speaker 1: and this type of stuff we're talking about just comes
Speaker 1: easy to them. And if you're if it's not coming
Speaker 1: easy to you, maybe it's not your thing, right, Maybe
Speaker 1: there's some other thing out there that you should do,
Speaker 1: because clearly this prodigy over here it comes easy for them.
Speaker 1: And it turns out almost all the prodigies are actually
Speaker 1: just well practiced people that started earlier. Right there, chest
Speaker 1: master at three, because both of their parents are chest
Speaker 1: master and they've had this kid playing it since they
Speaker 1: were two months old. Right, whatever, Right, Most of the
Speaker 1: truly prodigiously talented people that are in our in our ranks,
Speaker 1: actually we're grown up in a culture of talent or
Speaker 1: nurtured to be talented, but many of us were not.
Speaker 1: And so again we latch onto that myth and we
Speaker 1: go out there and we do something and it's hard
Speaker 1: at first, and so what do we tell ourselves, Well,
Speaker 1: maybe that's not for us, Maybe that's not our talent.
Speaker 1: When you know, I think the super talent it's just
Speaker 1: learning to sit down when something's hard and when when
Speaker 1: you suck at it, and saying, you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: going to do this until I get good enough to
Speaker 1: determine whether I want to keep doing this or not.
Speaker 1: You might get good enough at something and determine, Like,
Speaker 1: know what, I started playing tennis. I was terrible. I'm
Speaker 1: good enough at tennis. I'm adequate, But this is not
Speaker 1: my thing that I want to invest my life and
Speaker 1: soul energy towards for the next three to five years.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that great do something else. Um.
Speaker 1: But that process of just sitting down and saying, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to do this, and tool I'm
Speaker 1: competent enough to know whether or not I don't want
Speaker 1: to do it anymore. It's a really great skill to learn.
Speaker 1: You sort of talk about five things that get in
Speaker 1: the way of doing our best work, and I thought
Speaker 1: maybe we could run through those five as a place
Speaker 1: to sort of dig a little bit deeper into your
Speaker 1: work here. Great. So we're talking about the air sandwich here, right,
Speaker 1: And the basic idea is that I think we all
Speaker 1: have this vision of ourselves for this best version of ourselves,
Speaker 1: our best life or our best work, um. And you
Speaker 1: can kind of see that as the top layer of
Speaker 1: a sandwich, and then we look at our day to
Speaker 1: day reality as the bottom, and we notice that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of gap in between those two, like we're
Speaker 1: away all from this best life for this best you know,
Speaker 1: work that we want to be at and what do
Speaker 1: we do about that? And it seems to be a gap.
Speaker 1: But underneath, when you look deeper, those are the five
Speaker 1: challenges that you just talked about, Eric, where we're talking
Speaker 1: about competing priorities, heat, trash, no realistic plan, too few resources,
Speaker 1: and poor team alignment. Most of those are pretty straightforward
Speaker 1: but I'll talk about poor team alignment specifically because a
Speaker 1: lot of times when people here team, they think professional
Speaker 1: team or economic team, like the people your coworkers. But
Speaker 1: I want people to think about the broader group of
Speaker 1: people in their life. It could be that neighbor kid
Speaker 1: that watches your children and pets on a Saturday afternoon
Speaker 1: so you can go do your thing right. It could
Speaker 1: be grandma grandpa that does the same thing. It could
Speaker 1: be a coworker that does some heavy lifting for you.
Speaker 1: So it could be a lot of different things like that.
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm going to hang out on poor
Speaker 1: team alignment a little bit because many of us have
Speaker 1: not set a really clear vision for what we want
Speaker 1: to become and what we want to work on, and
Speaker 1: then we get frustrated when the people around us are
Speaker 1: not supporting it. But how can they? Are they telepass like,
Speaker 1: are they just supposed to figure out, Oh, this is
Speaker 1: what Eric wants to do today. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: align myself to make sure that happened. There's no way,
Speaker 1: um and and a lot of times the reason we
Speaker 1: haven't been clear about it. It goes back to that
Speaker 1: second thing that I laid out is head trash, the
Speaker 1: limiting beliefs, the stories, you know, just the bullshit that
Speaker 1: we get from our society that we latch onto. And
Speaker 1: the thing about head trash is that it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: whether or not it's true. You're believing it gives it
Speaker 1: all of its force, right exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I can't
Speaker 1: tell you how many times I've told myself I'm a
Speaker 1: terrible writer. It's not true. I know it's not true.
Speaker 1: I would not have my life and job if I
Speaker 1: were a terrible writer. But if I were to believe
Speaker 1: that idea in the moment, in that throw, then I
Speaker 1: would not be a good writer, like I would be
Speaker 1: a terrible writer. Um. So it's that belief in that
Speaker 1: head trash. And so if you say, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not the type of person that excels at this level,
Speaker 1: or I'm not the type of person to do that
Speaker 1: type of work, or I don't have what it takes,
Speaker 1: then yeah, it turns out that head trash is gonna
Speaker 1: make it really hard for you to point your ship
Speaker 1: in the direction you want to go, you know, good
Speaker 1: winds or poor winds versus just sitting in the harbor,
Speaker 1: you know, wondering when whether it's gonna be nice for
Speaker 1: you to take that voyage, right. It's such a big one.
Speaker 1: I've been contemplating this idea recently. I've been talking with
Speaker 1: some coaching clients around it and really kind of you know,
Speaker 1: trying to dig into it more deeply because at first
Speaker 1: glance and we'll go, yeah, yeah, that's true. But just
Speaker 1: because you know it's in the idea is just because
Speaker 1: I think something doesn't mean it's true. And I think
Speaker 1: we have this tendency if the thought keeps coming back
Speaker 1: that we then go, well, it must be true if
Speaker 1: it keeps coming back, and it's that's not the case.
Speaker 1: It's just a habitual conditioning of the brain. But that
Speaker 1: ability to start to go just because I think it
Speaker 1: it's not true is so important dealing with things like
Speaker 1: you're talking about here, like head trash. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: just purely you know, neurological of what fires together, wires together,
Speaker 1: and you think, I thought long enough, and that's you know,
Speaker 1: our brains are lazy, and that's where our brain is
Speaker 1: gonna go, is like I'm not or I am it's
Speaker 1: going to feel in the blank with whatever you've sent
Speaker 1: down that read long enough, right, And it's really one
Speaker 1: of those things where when you sit and you meditator,
Speaker 1: you have sort of meticognitive processes where you look at
Speaker 1: this like whenever you start playing with what you can
Speaker 1: follow I am with, it really throws your brain for
Speaker 1: a loop because it's like, well, you could be a
Speaker 1: lot of different things, and that's exactly what that's the
Speaker 1: growth mindset you want to have. But if you tell yourself,
Speaker 1: I'm not a good planner, or I'm not the type
Speaker 1: of person, or you know, I'm not good at math
Speaker 1: because in third grade Mr Wilson hit me on the hand.
Speaker 1: You know, those types of things, none of them are true.
Speaker 1: But that loop, that firing together and wiring together process
Speaker 1: happens so frequently um that a lot of times we
Speaker 1: don't even see it. And something that can be really
Speaker 1: helpful here is I think we try to pay too
Speaker 1: much attention to what's going on in our heads, and
Speaker 1: we pay too little attention about what our bodies are
Speaker 1: actually doing. And a lot of times, if you're paying
Speaker 1: attention to what your body is doing, it's acting as
Speaker 1: if it's afraid, it's acting as if it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's acting in a certain way, or you're doing certain
Speaker 1: behaviors and if you work backwards, I sometimes have to
Speaker 1: do this because as my mind, like you know, we
Speaker 1: we can do the whole guerrilla warfare thing where it's
Speaker 1: hightening for me and I'm hiding from it, and we
Speaker 1: can do that whole thing for a long time, but
Speaker 1: I can't hide from my body and my body's signals,
Speaker 1: And so just paying attention to that and looking at
Speaker 1: those natural urgences or looking at your patterns for instance,
Speaker 1: I know and most days at four thirty, like that's
Speaker 1: the weakest willpower time of the day for me, Right,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm going to do all the dumb things.
Speaker 1: So um, I have a program called Cold Turkey Blocker
Speaker 1: set up on my computer that goes off at four
Speaker 1: thirty that blocks me out of all the dumb things.
Speaker 1: Why because I know that at four thirty that's like
Speaker 1: when my willpower and strength and everything wanes, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to end up on Twitter or Facebook for two hours, right,
Speaker 1: and then let me super mad about it. So um,
Speaker 1: I don't have to get into my head about like
Speaker 1: what is it about four thirty in the day and
Speaker 1: go into a big major story about it. I could
Speaker 1: just have a blocker that keeps me from doing the
Speaker 1: dumb things that I know I'm going to do and
Speaker 1: just go on with my life. You say that an
Speaker 1: upshot to discipline is it limits decision fatigue, And that's
Speaker 1: a perfect example of it. It's like, I don't decide
Speaker 1: it for thirty what I feel like doing, because, like
Speaker 1: you said, I know at four thirty, I'm gonna feel
Speaker 1: like doing things that aren't that good for me. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to just predecide and set things in motion.
Speaker 1: But another of your five things I really want to
Speaker 1: get a couple of minutes on is competing priorities, because
Speaker 1: I think this is a big one, right, because we
Speaker 1: have so many things in our lives these days. If
Speaker 1: you're the average adult, you've got a job, you've got kids,
Speaker 1: you you might have your creative thing you want to do,
Speaker 1: your side hustle, you might have elderly parents that are sick.
Speaker 1: I mean, the plates pretty full. The plate is indeed
Speaker 1: preently full. And then you know, because we have never
Speaker 1: had more communication technologies, you know, throwing it as at once.
Speaker 1: We see everybody else's life and see what everybody else
Speaker 1: is doing. And for most of human history we've been
Speaker 1: in these smaller circles of fifteen to twenty people where
Speaker 1: that's the limit of sort of the emotional and social
Speaker 1: exposure that we've had on a day to day basis.
Speaker 1: And so I think we're at a point to where,
Speaker 1: because of you know, social media and some of these tools,
Speaker 1: like we're now got access to fift three thousand people
Speaker 1: a day in their worlds, in their lives and what
Speaker 1: they're getting into, and also how much better their life
Speaker 1: is than ours and all those different things that we
Speaker 1: get into. But what I've learned from a lot of
Speaker 1: the coaching work and overdoing this over the last decade
Speaker 1: is that many people's actual priorities are ones that they
Speaker 1: don't count, and we make aspirations into priorities. By by that,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll take parents, for example, whichever parent you are,
Speaker 1: if the school calls you up and says, hey, your
Speaker 1: kids sick, um, you're going to you know, go pick
Speaker 1: that kid up. Unless you have some you know, someone
Speaker 1: help you out with that. Your your day is fundamentally
Speaker 1: going to change, right, You're not going to go through
Speaker 1: this whole sort of like, I don't know, is this
Speaker 1: a priority? I don't know, kid, Maybe I can do
Speaker 1: this maybe I could do that, like, no, you drop
Speaker 1: everything you take care of kid, right, same with elders
Speaker 1: and things like that. And we know that at the
Speaker 1: same time, when we're deciding what projects to do and
Speaker 1: we're deciding how we're going to spend our time, we
Speaker 1: don't use that same sense of certainty about it, and
Speaker 1: we assume in the way that we make decisions that
Speaker 1: we won't have that priority come up in the way
Speaker 1: that it is right. And so um, I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of peace when you really lean into the
Speaker 1: consequence of say, your children being your priority, which means
Speaker 1: that you don't have the amount of available time, energy
Speaker 1: and attention available to you as other people who have
Speaker 1: not prioritized that way, right, because they don't have the
Speaker 1: three to seven hours a day of child care stuff
Speaker 1: that they need to do. And it's not that you're
Speaker 1: better or worse, it's just you've made different choices. But
Speaker 1: that also means when you look at all the other
Speaker 1: projects and priorities, you might assume you are now three
Speaker 1: to seven hours down from doing that, right, you don't
Speaker 1: have that same amount. Except what we do is we
Speaker 1: compare what we're doing two people who have prioritized in
Speaker 1: other ways, how are they getting that much don how
Speaker 1: are they blah blah blah. Well, maybe they don't have kids,
Speaker 1: or maybe they prioritize that differently, or maybe they have
Speaker 1: grandparents taking care of them, or there are a lot
Speaker 1: of different things, and so the competing priorities comes up
Speaker 1: because we, unfortunately um like to choose projects in the
Speaker 1: abstract because they sound cool and fun, but we don't
Speaker 1: necessarily tie them to the priorities and values that are
Speaker 1: actually going to show up day to day. And I've
Speaker 1: very much follow the quote from Gandhi that action expresses priority,
Speaker 1: and that can be really frustrating for a lot of
Speaker 1: us because if we look back over the last two
Speaker 1: weeks and look at what's on our schedule and get
Speaker 1: real with it, whatever is on your schedule has been
Speaker 1: your priority because you have chosen not to do a
Speaker 1: lot of other things. So we have to get real that.
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, this is for creatives and entrepreneurs and
Speaker 1: people like that who dreamed like, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to start my business, I want to do all that
Speaker 1: kind of whatnot, but they feel sort of bogged down
Speaker 1: by the day job. Well, that day job is actually
Speaker 1: tying into some sense of priorities and values for you, right,
Speaker 1: maybe it's providing security for you, maybe it's writing stability,
Speaker 1: maybe it's providing professional status, and actually those things matter
Speaker 1: to you a lot, and saying you know what, those
Speaker 1: things matter to me, those are part of this broader
Speaker 1: matrix and priorities in my life, I think can give
Speaker 1: people a lot of peace because maybe you can be
Speaker 1: at peace that with all things considered, maybe starting a
Speaker 1: business right now is not right for you. And until
Speaker 1: you change some of those priorities in those values, it's
Speaker 1: never going to be a congruent choice for you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I could not agree with that more. That's so important
Speaker 1: on so many levels, And one of the big ones is,
Speaker 1: like you said, we end up feeling bad about ourselves
Speaker 1: because we're not doing all these other things because we
Speaker 1: have these priorities that we've not acknowledged our priorities, Like
Speaker 1: you said, like if we say, are right, our kids
Speaker 1: are our priority, then that dictates a certain degree of action.
Speaker 1: But when we're doing those actions, we tend to forget
Speaker 1: that we're doing something that's important to us. And and
Speaker 1: that's the thing I think that we miss a lot
Speaker 1: with what you're talking about is that we think that
Speaker 1: in order for something to be important, it's got to
Speaker 1: be something in addition to Right, But the job of
Speaker 1: raising kids is a really important job. And the fact
Speaker 1: that a lot of people prioritize that, I think is
Speaker 1: a wonderful thing. But a lot of people who prioritize
Speaker 1: that feel bad because they're not getting all these other
Speaker 1: things done. You want to get me on a rant, like,
Speaker 1: I will sometimes lose my mind and I can't help
Speaker 1: it at this point in my career when people are like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I really like I need to take care
Speaker 1: of my kids, but I got to be more productive
Speaker 1: or I'm not being productive, and I'm like, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? Like you're taking one of the most
Speaker 1: productive things that we humans can do, right, if you're
Speaker 1: being productive in a different way, right, And so, and
Speaker 1: I think when we make it all like we put
Speaker 1: it all on the table, and then you know, in
Speaker 1: my language, if it takes time, energy and attention, it's
Speaker 1: a project. And I have no real difference between economic
Speaker 1: projects and life projects. In fact, I want us to
Speaker 1: do more of the work of life. Then as much
Speaker 1: as we talk about life of our work, right, So
Speaker 1: we spend so much time talking about work, work, work
Speaker 1: and all that that is. But we does work of
Speaker 1: our lives. You know, it gets quart of crammed into
Speaker 1: these empty spaces left over after work, and there's not
Speaker 1: nearly enough empty spaces. So yeah, like I agree, being
Speaker 1: mid career and having a big project deck on you
Speaker 1: and then you realize, um, you know that your dad
Speaker 1: has dementia and you need to help figure out how
Speaker 1: to assist him in this next stage of his life
Speaker 1: and what that looks like. And that makes you drop
Speaker 1: other projects. It's not that you're being unproductive. It is
Speaker 1: not that you're not honoring commitments and thought that you're
Speaker 1: a flack. You're focusing on what matters in that moment, right,
Speaker 1: And yes, that means that you have to renegotiate and
Speaker 1: you gotta do all this other things. And that's I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to say people should do that, but if
Speaker 1: that is what really aligns with your values and really
Speaker 1: aligns with the relationships as you've been in with people,
Speaker 1: you're being incredibly productive. Is just taking a completely different
Speaker 1: direction than you thought it might, right, And I think
Speaker 1: it's so important to realize the choices that we're making.
Speaker 1: And the example you just gave is a great one
Speaker 1: for me because I spend half my time in Atlanta
Speaker 1: and my partner's mother has dementia and we do our
Speaker 1: living caregivers every two weeks down here, and so that's
Speaker 1: a choice that that we're making. And the more that
Speaker 1: I remember I'm making that choice, the better that whole
Speaker 1: experience is. Right. When I realize, like, I am choosing
Speaker 1: this because it aligns with my values and what I
Speaker 1: think is important, then I go into this whole thing
Speaker 1: with a totally different attitude than I do if I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have to go do this thing right, because we
Speaker 1: are always making a choice. We are always making a choice,
Speaker 1: and it's just whether or not that choice matters. And
Speaker 1: you know, this comes from sort of the existentialist philosophers
Speaker 1: were like, not choosing is also a choice, right, going
Speaker 1: and just showing up and doing the grind and not
Speaker 1: making some of these greatest choices, Well, you've chosen other things,
Speaker 1: and absolutely, and I think that's where it can be
Speaker 1: really helpful. You know, however, you do your planning. We
Speaker 1: have a certain type of methodology we talked about in
Speaker 1: the book. We don't need to get into it, but however,
Speaker 1: you keep these broader projects front of mine is super
Speaker 1: helpful because you're going to get a bright, shiny object
Speaker 1: pop up, right, you're gonna be I'll pick on Eric here,
Speaker 1: like you're you're going to be on a plane flight
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have this idea and you're like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: I can totally do that and so and so forth.
Speaker 1: But it's like, how does that fit in with this
Speaker 1: project of being a half time caregiver? And if I
Speaker 1: had to choose between those, which am I going to
Speaker 1: and you might find it like, you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: going to continue to choose to do this thing that
Speaker 1: I've committed to do. I can't convert that idea into
Speaker 1: a project, And you know what, that's great, Like that's
Speaker 1: one less thing for me to think about, right it's
Speaker 1: and it's one less thing to feel bad about that
Speaker 1: I'm not doing. That's the offshoot. And I do think
Speaker 1: this topic is really I think you and I both
Speaker 1: feel passionately about this because I see a lot of
Speaker 1: people feeling bad about themselves when I look at their
Speaker 1: life and I go, I think you're living a great life,
Speaker 1: Like you're doing well, You're taking care of people around you,
Speaker 1: you're doing all. You're not a failure, you know, And
Speaker 1: I just think that's so important. Yeah. Well, in the
Speaker 1: work that I do, so I work with people on
Speaker 1: strategy execution and on you know, productivity as we need to.
Speaker 1: And there will often be times when I'll come to
Speaker 1: the meetings with Shane right like I didn't do the
Speaker 1: things and I say, okay, it's so what did you do?
Speaker 1: And they sort of talk about what they did, and
Speaker 1: it's like, well, were those your priorities? Like would you
Speaker 1: had made a different choice knowing everything you know now?
Speaker 1: And they're like no, one, Like, well, we don't have
Speaker 1: a problem here, right. The only problem we have now
Speaker 1: is a logistical problem. What are we going to lift
Speaker 1: and shift and put where? But we don't have that
Speaker 1: sort of character problem that you came with, like oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not this person and I didn't commit, like you
Speaker 1: live according to your value, like my work here is done.
Speaker 1: Like if I can get people to do that, fantastic right. Um,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's just I may take this
Speaker 1: a different way, but if we treated ourselves half as
Speaker 1: kindly as we treat other people that we loved, man,
Speaker 1: would we be so much more at peace? And would
Speaker 1: we be I dare say it more productive? Um, because
Speaker 1: you know, when we look at people going through things
Speaker 1: and whether it's there mother in law that's got dementia,
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, the brother that's going to depress
Speaker 1: about or what maybe they slipped down the stairs and
Speaker 1: busted their knee, right, and we look at someone in
Speaker 1: those situations and they're like, I'm not getting done. Of course,
Speaker 1: we look at with compassion and say, you know, like
Speaker 1: maybe you're kind of going through this thing and it
Speaker 1: takes time, and you know, maybe you should be with
Speaker 1: the process. We say, when it's someone else, we do.
Speaker 1: We admire it in someone else, Yeah, but when it's us,
Speaker 1: it's a defect. Right for us, it's one of those things.
Speaker 1: And so slight pause here, but just in case someone
Speaker 1: needs to hear, like being sick, it's not a character defect, right,
Speaker 1: it's not. It's just something that's happened to you, having
Speaker 1: a chronic illness or whatever thing you're going through. It's
Speaker 1: not a character defect. It's not something that needs a
Speaker 1: you know, story about. It's just something that happens as
Speaker 1: a part of being human. It's your response to it
Speaker 1: that matters, and it's how you make choices, you know,
Speaker 1: in the way I think about it, recovering or having
Speaker 1: a chronic illness, like that's a project. Um, it takes time,
Speaker 1: energy and attention. You've got to do all the things
Speaker 1: it takes to you know, either hell or if it's
Speaker 1: something where it's like chronic fatigue, you just don't have
Speaker 1: the inner g that other people have and it doesn't
Speaker 1: make you less, then it doesn't make you a weaker
Speaker 1: from a moral perspective person. It's just a constraint that
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. So I just add that because I
Speaker 1: think we forget that these trials of life, that we
Speaker 1: forget that these transitions of pain or transitions of relationships
Speaker 1: and you know, breaking up and getting married and all
Speaker 1: these types of things, they take life force that we
Speaker 1: can't put towards other things. And yet we think we
Speaker 1: should be able to and think that if we're not,
Speaker 1: that's somehow like we're not one of those golden people
Speaker 1: that can do all the things. And you know, we're
Speaker 1: not the whoever your icon is, We're not the that
Speaker 1: person because they've apparently got it figured out. But when
Speaker 1: you look two or three clicks under the image you'll
Speaker 1: see people then maybe don't have the family relationships that
Speaker 1: you want, Maybe they don't have the health that you
Speaker 1: would want to have for yourself. Maybe, um, they've done
Speaker 1: things that when you look at what matters to you,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't choose to have those outcomes. So most importantly,
Speaker 1: live life on purpose and on priority, and choose the
Speaker 1: projects that support those and as best you can, let
Speaker 1: go with the rest. Yeah. I think that's great, and
Speaker 1: I think that's a great place for us to wrap up.
Speaker 1: You and I are going to continue talking in the
Speaker 1: post show conversation about some of your uh techniques for
Speaker 1: going from idea to done and they are really good.
Speaker 1: Um we we barely even touched on them, so we're
Speaker 1: going to do that in the post show conversation. Listeners
Speaker 1: you can get access to that by going to one
Speaker 1: you feed dot net slash joint and becoming part of
Speaker 1: the community there. But Charlie, thank you so much. This
Speaker 1: is I've really enjoyed this conversation and I think it's
Speaker 1: been a really important Eric. Thanks very much for having me,
Speaker 1: and anytime you want me back, I'm here, all right. Bye. Ye.
Speaker 1: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
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