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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molli John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Russia has offered political asylum to

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk Perfect gotta love it. We have such a

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Speaker 1: great show for you today. The Lincoln Project's own Stuart

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Speaker 1: Stevens stops by to talk about the Elon and Trump

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Speaker 1: breakup and the case for nationalizing SpaceX and Starlink. Then

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Speaker 1: we'll talk to the New Yorkers John Cassidy about his

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Speaker 1: book Capitalism and Its Critics, a history from the Industrial

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Speaker 1: Revolution to AI.

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Speaker 2: But first the news, Mally, I'm going to let you

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Speaker 2: and Stewart do the discussion of the girls who are

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Speaker 2: fighting between Elon and the Trump and all that surrounds it,

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Speaker 2: because we have other fish to fry that got buried

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Speaker 2: in the news this week. This one is particularly horrifying.

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Speaker 2: You and I were both wretching as we read this

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Speaker 2: before this question swirl over who's running the CDC? Not

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Speaker 2: a headline you want to read?

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Speaker 1: This is not good? Okay. First of all, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's happened in this administration which we should

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Speaker 1: all be thinking about, worrying about, and talking about is

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Speaker 1: that the Trump administration has given up on running the

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Speaker 1: federal government the way it's supposed to be run. And

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Speaker 1: the problem is they're disrupting things that we actually need,

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Speaker 1: like the CDC. Putting RFK Junior in charge of this

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Speaker 1: CDC is basically just giving it up right, and that's

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing here. Confusion over shifting Center for Disease

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Speaker 1: Control and Prevention COVID nineteen recommendations are reuniting questions in

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Speaker 1: the public health community about who's actually running the agency

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Speaker 1: and the answer is no one. And that is what

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Speaker 1: you should be scared of. This is really scary. We're

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Speaker 1: six months into the Trump administration. This health agency is

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Speaker 1: who we need to be tracking the avian flu, to

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Speaker 1: be following food borne diseases, to making sure that you know,

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Speaker 1: studies are being followed, that drugs that our dangerous are

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Speaker 1: being kept off the market, that you know there's the

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Speaker 1: CDC is a huge organization with a really important job.

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Speaker 1: And what we're seeing here is that RFK Junior, who

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Speaker 1: said he needed to be in charge of public health, well,

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Speaker 1: he is falling down on the job. He faced questions

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Speaker 1: about the direction of the agency and is send hearing

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Speaker 1: last month, and he really couldn't answer them. He said

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Speaker 1: things like couldn't answer questions, didn't understand what was happening.

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Speaker 1: So here's something important from the Health and Human Services

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Speaker 1: spokesperson said, the chief of staff has been carrying out

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Speaker 1: some of the duties of the CDC director as a

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Speaker 1: senior official. So you see what's happening here, right, They're

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Speaker 1: just not doing what they're supposed to be doing, and

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Speaker 1: it's very inefficient and we're going to see this is

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Speaker 1: going to be bad. This is like what we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: They're going to be wholes that need to be fixed.

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Speaker 1: It's not good. And you know that this is it

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Speaker 1: relates to our next story. So I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get ahead of ourselves, but this is the CDC that's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be following the bird flu and preventing another

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Speaker 1: once in a lifetime pandemic from catching hold. And now

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Speaker 1: let us move on to the next big problem coming

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Speaker 1: to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as you said, it's really similar, which is that

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Speaker 2: DOSEE fired too many people. They took a chainsaw that

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Speaker 2: was really long to this when they should have been

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Speaker 2: in with a scalpel. And now we're seeing absolutely horrifying

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Speaker 2: issues with this report from the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: So Jesse put this in our schedule to talk about.

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Speaker 1: I read it earlier and could not believe what I

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Speaker 1: read me And this is a piece. This's a big

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Speaker 1: expose in the Washington Post. And basically what they did was,

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Speaker 1: at every point they sent these emails and you could see,

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Speaker 1: well it was happening, that this was what was going

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Speaker 1: to happen. But it is I don't want to say gratifying,

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Speaker 1: because all of this is terrible and they're going to

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Speaker 1: be huge consequences that none of us can quite game

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Speaker 1: out yet. But basically, they offered these resignations to all

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Speaker 1: these people, many of whom needed to actually work in

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Speaker 1: the federal government. And this is where it is. So

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Speaker 1: this piece is really you should definitely read it. It

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Speaker 1: explains how at every point they fired people who were necessary,

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Speaker 1: then they listed jobs to try to get them to

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Speaker 1: come back. A lot of people didn't want to come

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Speaker 1: back because now they worry that the federal government is

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Speaker 1: not a reasonable place to work anymore.

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Speaker 2: Do you mean that essay for the hiring we talked

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Speaker 2: about in the last episode. It makes people not want

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Speaker 2: to work in an environment like that. I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: why they wouldn't want to work with people who did

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Speaker 2: a loyalty essay for Trump.

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Speaker 1: And it's also I would say, it's like the top

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Speaker 1: line is Elon is done with the federal government, but

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Speaker 1: the federal government has been just traumatized and injured by Elon.

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Speaker 1: And there are so many different parts of the government.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so, we just did a story about there's

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Speaker 1: no one running the CDC right the Center for Disease Control,

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Speaker 1: an extremely important part of the federal government that keeps

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Speaker 1: us healthy and safe. Now in this story, there's reporting

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Speaker 1: that all these other parts of the State Department, and

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Speaker 1: then they tried to rehire the people in the State

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Speaker 1: Department and they don't want to come back, and that's

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Speaker 1: security overseas. And then you have Trump doing these bands

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Speaker 1: from different countries, and you don't have the State Department

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Speaker 1: following up on what's happening in those other countries because

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Speaker 1: of these bands, and that's going to be really important.

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Speaker 1: And then you have in this article it talks about

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Speaker 1: how you have people that were fired from all different

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Speaker 1: sections like the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Housing

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Speaker 1: in Urban Development, the FDA. These are things food and

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Speaker 1: drug administration is housing in urban development, that's like housing,

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Speaker 1: that's different cities. And then agriculture that's our food safety.

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Speaker 1: So there are so many different parts of the federal

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Speaker 1: government that have been devastated by the richest man in

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Speaker 1: the world who thought it would be cool to pretend

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Speaker 1: to work government.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nice cosplaying there, Speaking of people whose job qualifications

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Speaker 2: seem like cosplay. I would say yesterday was in the

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Speaker 2: top ten funnest days on the Internet. But I was

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Speaker 2: really really sad that something that would have made the

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Speaker 2: day fun no matter what, got buried, which was Howard

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Speaker 2: Blunick testifying in front of Congress and showing what an

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Speaker 2: absolute unqualified person years to be running anything this high up.

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Speaker 3: Let's listen.

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Speaker 4: What's the terriffon bananas? Americans, by the way, love bananas.

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Speaker 4: We buy billions of them a year.

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Speaker 1: I love bananas.

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Speaker 4: What's the terriffon bananas?

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Speaker 3: The tariffone bananas would be representative of the countries that

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Speaker 3: produced and what what's that terraff generally ten percent? Correct?

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Speaker 4: Ten percent? Walmart has already increased the cost of bananas

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Speaker 4: by eight percent.

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Speaker 5: As untrust who deals with us, that will go to

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Speaker 5: zero as countries do deals right now.

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Speaker 4: American consumer now and on the businesses with the confus Now,

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Speaker 4: mister Secretary, I believe you know better. I believe you

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Speaker 4: recognize that a trade deficit is not something to fear.

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Speaker 4: I believe you know that predictability, stability is essential for businesses.

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Speaker 1: I wish you would show that truth to this administration.

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Speaker 2: And I yeope, back ladies my mind.

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Speaker 5: Mister Tairman, if I make one quick comment to the end,

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Speaker 5: that'd be okay. I'm sorry, would you mind if I

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Speaker 5: make one quick comment to the representative?

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Speaker 3: Please? Uh?

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Speaker 6: There is no uncertainty.

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Speaker 5: If you build in America and you produce your product

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Speaker 5: in America, there will be no task.

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Speaker 1: We can't be hung as aling in.

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Speaker 3: America and pay no tax. You cannot, very very clear.

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Speaker 1: You cannot fighting build that as in America.

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Speaker 3: Time with the general Lady has expired.

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Speaker 1: Wait, you can't build bananas in America.

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Speaker 2: It is so far this discussion of on shoring things.

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Speaker 2: What it's like, so many these jobs we don't Americans doing,

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Speaker 2: and that was what we worked on for seventy five years.

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Speaker 2: And then there's just things that are not able to

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Speaker 2: be done in our climate.

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Speaker 1: Speak for yourself. I'm building American bananas right here. Baby, No,

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Speaker 1: this isn't completely insane. And what you don't see, because

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Speaker 1: this is audio and now video, is that he has

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Speaker 1: this enormous qrin on his face. That is absolutely it just.

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Speaker 2: Is so he thought he killed it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he thinks he killed it. I think that is

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Speaker 1: absolutely he thinks he killed it. And my man, he

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Speaker 1: did not kill it. It's just very annoying, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and also so insane.

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Speaker 2: We have more incompetent hires that are totally unqualified for

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Speaker 2: their job this time, though it's much more in the

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Speaker 2: comical way of that. We have a twenty two year

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Speaker 2: old former gardener picked to lead the Terrorism Prevention Department

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Speaker 2: of Homeland Security named Thomas Fugate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and this is you know, this is

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Speaker 1: this story relates to the story about the CDC, relates

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Speaker 1: to the story about everything else they are. They're defenestrating

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Speaker 1: the federal government, and they're going to be consequences. I

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Speaker 1: hope there aren't, but it really seems like they're going

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Speaker 1: to be. And it's just such a incredibly insane moment

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Speaker 1: in American life and just so fucked up. Excuse my

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Speaker 1: fact Stuart Stevens is a legendary campaign manager and the

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Speaker 1: author of the Conspiracy to in America Five Ways My

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Speaker 1: Old Party is driving our democracy to autocracy. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Stuart Stevens.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, Molly. I've got to use this as a

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Speaker 5: shout out for your book. It's really extraordinary. It really

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Speaker 5: is an amazing piece of writing.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Stuart is actually really incredible. You are a boot beautiful writer,

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Speaker 1: and you write tends not to be political, writing tends

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Speaker 1: not to be so lyrical, and you write very lyrically.

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Speaker 1: So I really appreciate that from you. And now we

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Speaker 1: must talk about your mad cap idea, which I love

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Speaker 1: it so much. It's also just super interesting. So talk

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Speaker 1: me through this idea.

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Speaker 5: The idea of nationalizing Starlink. And yeah, the deeply troubling

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Speaker 5: thing about this is that I seem to agree with

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Speaker 5: Steve mannon, but I'm trying to get over that. Look,

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Speaker 5: I mean this in all seriousness, never if we had

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Speaker 5: one person so deeply embedded into essential related national security industries.

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Speaker 5: Companies Starlink and SpaceX are critical elements of American national

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Speaker 5: security and of America's power in the world. So, I mean,

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Speaker 5: if I just woke up in the Middle nine and said,

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Speaker 5: what if we had a guy who you know, has

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Speaker 5: a well reported, very high level drug problem, unstable obviously

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Speaker 5: mental issues, and he's the person that runs these companies,

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Speaker 5: he'd probably say that's really not a great idea. There

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Speaker 5: is this thing called the Defense Procurement Act, which is

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Speaker 5: passed in nineteen fifty. It was actually updated in nineteen

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Speaker 5: seventy to specifically include anything related to space, and in

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Speaker 5: earlier versions, the first was around World War One they

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Speaker 5: came up with It gives the government in times of

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Speaker 5: national emergency the power to direct or nationalize industries, and

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Speaker 5: it's been used before from the railways to mining and

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Speaker 5: various ways with steel companies. So Republicans say that we

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Speaker 5: are in a national emergency, they say that we are

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Speaker 5: at war. That's what they used to justify the use

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Speaker 5: of the Alien Act, and they call it a regular warfare.

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Speaker 5: So if I was a Democrat, though now that Steve

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Speaker 5: Bannon has supported this idea, maybe you don't have to

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Speaker 5: be a Democrat, I.

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Speaker 3: Would take you face value.

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Speaker 5: Okay, great, right, we're in a national emergency where it

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Speaker 5: war that gives the government the power to nationalize SpaceX

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Speaker 5: and Starlink.

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Speaker 1: So as a conservative, it's a pretty bold idea. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's wrong. But so the theory of the

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Speaker 1: case here is that I think Tesla it doesn't. It

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Speaker 1: is sort of a rounding error. But there are two

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Speaker 1: companies that Elon Muss that has had that our owns

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Speaker 1: that are where he is the largest stockholder of SpaceX

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Speaker 1: is actually a private company that he has built through

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Speaker 1: government subsidies and a lot of incentive advising with taxes,

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Speaker 1: and they have made him the richest band in the world.

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Speaker 1: And one is Starlink and one is SpaceX and starlink

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Speaker 1: is And again this runs to the idea that you

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Speaker 1: have a problem, which is you need SpaceX for satellites

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Speaker 1: and also space exploration. You need Starlink for all of

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Speaker 1: the stuff that's already in space and yeah, the communication.

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Speaker 1: And again Trump tweeted yesterday about canceling a lot of

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Speaker 1: Elon's contracts. But there is no other company that can

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Speaker 1: do this. So we got here because government refused to regulate.

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Speaker 1: I mean, explain is how we got here that we

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Speaker 1: have one company that does these things.

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Speaker 5: It's interesting because wearing my conservative hat. You could make

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Speaker 5: a good case that this goes to the efficiency of

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Speaker 5: the marketplace. You had a guy who is extraordinarily gifted,

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Speaker 5: if deeply disturbed. So had this been set up by

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Speaker 5: NASA from the beginning, you would have had security clearances

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Speaker 5: that would have include drug testing, and you wouldn't have

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Speaker 5: an elone muff anywhere near this thing. So that's positive.

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Speaker 5: But now that it is what it is, one person

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Speaker 5: should not be allowed to have this power, particularly someone

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Speaker 5: who has such terrible judgment, is obviously in some sort

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Speaker 5: of manic personal crisis. And we have a perfect example

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Speaker 5: of his insertion of himself in world events when he

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Speaker 5: refused in twenty twenty two Ukraine, Yeah, of twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: two to allow Ukraine, I mean, just picture this. Ukraine

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Speaker 5: had set up the first use of one of their

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Speaker 5: now sort of famous water drones, these water power drones

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Speaker 5: that carry explosives that they've used to somehow for a

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Speaker 5: country that didn't have a navy to defeat the Russian navy.

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Speaker 5: So they are seventy kilometers away from their target, which

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Speaker 5: was the Muskova flagship, and Elon musk turned off the

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Speaker 5: starlink and refused to turn it back on. That is

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Speaker 5: extremely dangerous, and there is this weird affinity would be

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Speaker 5: the most positive way to put it. Of this group

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Speaker 5: of South Africans that he is part of. Sex is

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Speaker 5: another one. They have this soft spot for Russia, probably

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Speaker 5: but no other reason. It's an oligarch's paradise and they

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Speaker 5: are oligarchs or would be firing and they have elections

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Speaker 5: that are performative, not determinative, which they obviously you know.

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Speaker 5: I just I think it should be done. I think

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Speaker 5: if you had any sort of seriousness about national security,

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Speaker 5: you would step back from this and say, regardless of

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Speaker 5: how we got here, we're here and we can't allow

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Speaker 5: this to continue.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be hard to convince people

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Speaker 1: to do that because I think the public markets aren't

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Speaker 1: going to like it. I understand the need for it

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Speaker 1: because Elon is very erratic, and he's running these companies

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Speaker 1: in a very erratic way, and there are certain things

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Speaker 1: that are needed from Starlank and SpaceX that you know,

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Speaker 1: his personal peccadillos are hurting right like, there are people

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Speaker 1: up in the space station who need to be okay,

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Speaker 1: there are people in Alabama or rural Kentucky or you know,

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Speaker 1: where they need to make sure the satellites, or Ukraine

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Speaker 1: where they need to make sure the satellites are working.

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Speaker 1: So there is a need that is beyond what Elon's

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Speaker 1: personal piccadillos are. But the worry I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of us on the both the left and the right,

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Speaker 1: is that once you start taking over private companies, it's

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Speaker 1: a very slippery slope.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's look, it's been used before.

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Speaker 5: It's always been unpopular with those that are connected to

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Speaker 5: the companies, right understandable, going back to when they nationalized

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Speaker 5: a lot of use of the railroads, uh, going into

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Speaker 5: the US entry into World War One. I think it's

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Speaker 5: like everything in life, you have to balance the good right,

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Speaker 5: And there's really no two companies that are as deeply

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Speaker 5: involved in national security.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: This isn't a case of your nationalizing Tesla to get

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Speaker 5: FOURD to break or to help Toyota and Tesla, which

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Speaker 5: is really the source of most of his wealth. And

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Speaker 5: of course, which is one of the reasons they've had

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Speaker 5: this extraordinary higher technical fight is Trump wants to cut

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Speaker 5: to EV credits and until recently, the only money that

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Speaker 5: Tesla made was from EV credits. They were basically an

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Speaker 5: ev credit company that also made cars. You take that

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Speaker 5: away and the value Tesla's extraordinarily overvalued company.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yes, for sure it will.

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Speaker 5: Go down, but that's fine. I mean, Tesla's not necessary

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Speaker 5: to have financial security. I mean, all my neighbors in

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Speaker 5: Santa Monica can make do a print wood will survive.

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Speaker 5: But there ought to be responsible adults connected with the

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Speaker 5: best interest in the United States government that are at

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Speaker 5: this point running starlink and running SpaceX.

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Speaker 3: Right, pay him a bunch.

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Speaker 1: Of money, right by it from them.

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Speaker 5: United States government has a lot of money. You don't

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Speaker 5: have to just seize it. Pay them a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: That's fine.

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Speaker 1: So you feel like it's an imminent domain question.

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Speaker 3: Exactly like imminent domain.

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Speaker 5: That's a very good it's a very good example, and

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Speaker 5: we use it, and it's controversial, and those that are

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Speaker 5: eminently domained out usually don't worry.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: But I just think that you can't unsee what we've

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Speaker 5: seen in the last forty eight hours.

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Speaker 1: Right, this is not a person who should be in

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Speaker 1: charge of National Saturday.

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Speaker 5: I mean you could say, okay, here's a guy. He's

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Speaker 5: jumping up and down behind it. You know, President of

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Speaker 5: the United States. You look at that footage in the

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Speaker 5: Oval Office, and you know, there's not a teenage in

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Speaker 5: America that would walk into their home in that kind

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Speaker 5: of condition and not know that they're going to be

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Speaker 5: busted by their parents. How deeply into drugs do you

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Speaker 5: have to be that you can't restrain yourself the morning

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Speaker 5: of knowing that you're going to have meeting in the

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Speaker 5: Oval Office that's going to be televised. You know, if

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Speaker 5: you can't kind of hold it together for that, that

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Speaker 5: is a serious indication of a serious problem.

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Speaker 1: Right. I mean, we don't want to speculate, but there

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Speaker 1: certainly has been reporting in the Wallstreet Journal about a

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Speaker 1: box of pills and this and that.

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Speaker 5: You also said, did he use this kind of meine? Right,

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Speaker 5: and we can now use Donald Trump as a source, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, Donald Trump, the two of them did definitely get

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Speaker 1: involved in a lot of pretty insane no name calling.

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Speaker 1: So right now there are a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: want Elan and Trump to sort of take it all down, right,

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Speaker 1: they are de accelerate, d you know whatever, stop fighting.

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Speaker 1: This is a bad situation for people like Mike Johnson.

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Speaker 1: This is a bad situation for people like Anna, Paulina

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Speaker 1: Luna or any member of the House goop who is

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Speaker 1: got to choose between their richest benefactor and their political

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Speaker 1: north star. Do you think, and this is something already

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Speaker 1: we're seeing this, do you think like this bill could

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Speaker 1: get crashed just by Elon? Should Democrats be pushing that

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Speaker 1: even if Elon pash the bill is something totally different

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Speaker 1: than why Democrats want to crash it.

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Speaker 5: I think that what Democrats have to learn to do

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Speaker 5: is to use whatever tools they have available and not

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Speaker 5: to feel that like this is beneath me or that

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Speaker 5: is right. You can't allow yourself to luxury of pretending

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Speaker 5: that the greater good is served by acting like a

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Speaker 5: normal governing party. Right, as Jonathan last that brilliantly pointed out,

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Speaker 5: we don't need opposition party now, we need a dissident movement.

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Speaker 5: So this is a terrible bill for any reason. So

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Speaker 5: he didn't need Elon, But the degree to which Elon

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Speaker 5: can be useful in this, I think they should grasp

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Speaker 5: it and beat him over the head with it. And look,

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Speaker 5: this is also just we should not lose sight of

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Speaker 5: the fact this is terrible for the country.

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Speaker 1: Right, no deep off medicaid.

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Speaker 5: Today's no, just this fight is terrible country. The bill

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Speaker 5: is terrible too, But today's anniversary of D Day. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: but think about what America was doing then and what

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Speaker 5: the leadership, the sacrifice, and the image that it secured

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Speaker 5: for America's place in the world as a flawed but

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Speaker 5: instrument of greater good compared to this fight between two

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Speaker 5: deeply flawed, horrible human beings who are two of the

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Speaker 5: most powerful people in the world. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 5: how far are we falling? Publicans are to blame for this.

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Speaker 5: They didn't have to tolerate this, and they've allowed it

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Speaker 5: to happen.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about what this looks like now.

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Speaker 1: So Democrats really could and I think they should think

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Speaker 1: about trying to sink this thing with the help of

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk, because Keal and Musks people want it gone.

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Speaker 1: This bill, if it passes, will kick people off Medicaid,

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Speaker 1: it will cut food stamps for poor kids, It will

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Speaker 1: just do everything, and it will extend these ridiculous tax cuts.

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Speaker 1: And it will also open the door to no tax

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Speaker 1: on tips. How that will work, I have no idea

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Speaker 1: talk about that.

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Speaker 5: Look, I think the Democrats should have a greater ambition

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Speaker 5: than just stopping this bill. They should use what's happened

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Speaker 5: with Musk as one of the instruments to undo and

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Speaker 5: get all these Doze cronies out of government. I mean,

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Speaker 5: just stop and think the guy that we have seen

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Speaker 5: in the last twenty four hours. Would you trust him

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Speaker 5: to hire someone to paint your house?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 5: And he's what are these people like that he's hired.

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Speaker 5: They try to hide, they try to the big balls

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Speaker 5: in these crowds. They're going to be weird. They're not

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Speaker 5: going to have a sense of any patriotism, and they're dangerous,

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Speaker 5: right we are at this moment. I mean, anybody you know,

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Speaker 5: I think grusde has made this very good point.

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Speaker 3: Oh this is great.

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Speaker 5: You got one of these guys has all our personal

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Speaker 5: information in his pocket and the other has the nuclear codes. Right, yes,

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Speaker 5: well this is really great. So I think it just

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Speaker 5: indicates the recklessness and carelessness and lack of any sense

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Speaker 5: of responsibility that has driven this entire Doge effort.

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Speaker 3: They should try to undo this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting, and in fact, there's really good

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Speaker 1: reporting today from the Washington Post about how DOGE has

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Speaker 1: fired so many people, and there really is quite They're

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Speaker 1: trying to rehire these people that they fired. And I

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Speaker 1: do wonder if there is a question now if you could,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it would mean that you would

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Speaker 1: need to appeal to John Thoon. You would mean that

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Speaker 1: you would need to get Trump back on board to

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Speaker 1: try to stop sort of defenestrating the federal government. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure. Like remember, part of why DOJE was allowed

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Speaker 1: to happen was because the Heritage Foundation really did want

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Speaker 1: to unravel the federal government. So there were two different

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Speaker 1: polls involved in that.

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Speaker 5: Talk to that, yeah, I think also, yes, that's true

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Speaker 5: the Heritage Foundation, of course, but there is a hidden

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Speaker 5: motive here of someone like Trump and someone like Musk.

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Speaker 5: They really don't believe in democracy. They believe in autocracies

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Speaker 5: and the sort of great Man theory of history. So

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Speaker 5: if you have a government that is working, that is functioning,

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Speaker 5: they see that as a reduction of their own ability

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Speaker 5: to be historic figures. This whole notion that goes back

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Speaker 5: to George Washington, that the president is just holds the

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Speaker 5: office temporarily and this is he's a steward of something greater.

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Speaker 5: That goes back to the oath of allegiances to the Constitution,

439
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 5: not to a man that is deeply alien to someone

440
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 5: like Trump and someone like Musk, and everything is personal

441
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 5: to him. So this is one of the reasons they're

442
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 5: so drawn to putin. And it is cruelty, it is ignorance,

443
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 5: it is a complete inability to imagine how government can

444
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 5: help others. But it also is a ploy to make

445
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 5: the need for a strong man essential. I think the

446
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 5: best fights you get in not because you know you're

447
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 5: gonna win, but you get in because you have to fight.

448
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 5: It's true of Ukraine, is true the Battle of Britain.

449
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 5: That's that is the Democrats should have. I mean, if

450
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 5: Democrats take over the House, the first thing I would

451
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 5: do is I would cut off all funding for the

452
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 5: executive branch every bit.

453
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, such a good point, Such a good point.

454
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 5: Don't play this game by different rules, except that this

455
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 5: is the game that we're in, and use those rules.

456
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 5: Don't be like we were in World War One when

457
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 5: hesitant to establish intelligence because gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail.

458
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: No, right, that was the actual sense of Bidenism. Was

459
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: bringing a stuff to animal to a knife fight, was

460
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: refusing to meet these people where they were.

461
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that there's two ways to look at that.

462
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 5: I think that's what you just said is absolutely true.

463
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 5: I think also that Biden historically will have to plead

464
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 5: guilty to having a greater expectation of what America could

465
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: rise to than America chose to rise to.

466
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: That is really true. Thank you, thank you, thank you,

467
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: Stuart Stevens.

468
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: Thank you.

469
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: You're so smart. John Cassidy is a staff writer at

470
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: The New Yorker and the author of Capitalism and Its Critics,

471
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: A History from the Industrial Revolution to AI. So welcome

472
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: to Fast Politics.

473
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 6: John, thanks very much for inviting me on.

474
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 1: I am excited to talk about this book, but I

475
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: just want for a minute to talk about the progression.

476
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: So the last book he wrote was a book about

477
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: how markets fail, and this book is about capitalism and

478
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: perhaps how capitalism may have some failings. Is there a

479
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: connection here between this one and the next.

480
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 7: I'm recovering the sort of economics and finance. You knows

481
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 7: since I was in my twenties and I in my

482
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 7: sixties now, so we're talking nearly forty years. So if

483
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 7: you cover finance and economics, what makes news is always

484
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 7: the market failures. My first book about was it was

485
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 7: about the Internet boom and bust back in the late nineties.

486
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 7: My second book was really about the financial Christ's great

487
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 7: financial Crisis of two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight,

488
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 7: two thousand and nine, and the sort of economic failures

489
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 7: behind that.

490
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 6: And then I thought, well, I've done the two individual ones.

491
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 7: Why not go the whole hog and do a book about,

492
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 7: you know, the sort of full history of capitalism and

493
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 7: its critics. The pitch for this book is that it's

494
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 7: not just another boring history of capitalism. It's toiled through

495
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 7: the eyes of the critics. So I mean I turned

496
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 7: it into a series of mini biographies going all the

497
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 7: way back to Adam Smith and the luod Heites up

498
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 7: until today.

499
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: So it's working great.

500
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 6: Huh.

501
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 7: Well, I mean there's always two sided capitalism, right, I mean,

502
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 7: we generally regarded as better than the alternatives. We tried

503
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 7: an alternative in the twentieth century state socialism that eventually

504
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 7: broke down. I mean, capitalism has delivered a massive economic growth.

505
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 7: I mean, I've got a charge in my book showing

506
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 7: how if you just look at GDP since the year dot,

507
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 7: you know, it's basically a flat line until eighteen hundred,

508
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 7: when industrial capitalism comes on and then it takes off,

509
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 7: and it's been going up since. So I think the

510
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 7: reason capitalism survives is because it delivers the gods just

511
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 7: in terms of economic growth, but it brings with it

512
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 7: a lot of problems which have been there since, being

513
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 7: of the system, exploitation of workers and of consumers, inequality,

514
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 7: especially recent decades, that's been a huge problem. And now

515
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 7: technological displacement has always been an issue, and now with

516
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 7: AI it's an even bigger issue.

517
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 6: So you know, it's a two sided story.

518
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 7: I'm a sort of I come from a center left,

519
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 7: so I've always been critical of capitalism and thought it

520
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 7: can be improved, and I would describe myself as a

521
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 7: sort of Canesian social democrat. I think you've got to

522
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 7: keep the basics of the system, but you need to

523
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 7: manage it. I'm in favor of managed capitalism. That's the

524
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 7: argument I make in the book. And in sort of

525
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 7: terms of American politics, I guess you'd put me in

526
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 7: the sort of Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders camp.

527
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: There are many people on this podcast who are in

528
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: that camp too. It feels there is a real bit

529
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: of post free trade hangover happening right now, and we

530
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: saw it again. Biden poor at explaining things for any

531
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: number of reasons. He did. Chips and Sciences was largely

532
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: about entering manufacturing because of Taiwan and because of any

533
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: number of other reasons, Tariff's, Trump whatever. But theoretically the

534
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: thought behind it is entering manufacturing. So can you explain

535
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: to us where this sort of free trade I want

536
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: to say, it's a sort of like free trade regretism

537
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: comes from. That's not a real word.

538
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 7: I mean, I think you know you have to You

539
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 7: have to go back into history a bit.

540
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 6: Well, that's the problem with covering Trump. Everybody gets caught

541
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 6: up in the day to day headlines. I do it myself.

542
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 7: I just wrote about his comments about toys. But you

543
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 7: have to step back a bit here. Trump people attribute

544
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 7: too much to him. He is a react in a

545
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 7: part of a react against globalization and what he uses

546
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 7: neoliberalism basically sort of conservative economic policy from the sort

547
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 7: of nineties onwards and embrace of sort of unrestricted globalization

548
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 7: that produced in the US at least a lot of

549
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 7: a lot of job displacement, especially in Red States. Best

550
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 7: they joined the China Shock from about when China joined

551
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 7: the World Trade Organization in two thousand and one. If

552
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 7: you just look at the charts of manufacturing employment after that,

553
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 7: they go straight down, and that produce another There's always

554
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 7: this bigger, big debate about was Trump a product of

555
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 7: economic resentments or racial and cultural resentments. I think the

556
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 7: answer obviously is both, but economics definitely played a role.

557
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 7: So what we've seen since twenty sixteen, anyway, is a

558
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 7: big backlash against sort of free trade on both sides

559
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 7: of the aisle. Started off, obviously with Trump and his

560
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 7: tariffs in the first term, and he run in on

561
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 7: economic nationalism.

562
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 6: America First, America First.

563
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 7: That's basically a catchphrase for economic nationalism. The Democrats up

564
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 7: until you know, Clinton and Obama were very much in

565
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 7: favor of free trade. It was obviously Bill Clinton who

566
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 7: signed then After Agreement back in the nineteen nineties. So

567
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 7: the party had very much bought into the idea that

568
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 7: free trade and globalization was best for America, and there

569
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 7: are some strong arguments for it, but they'd sort of

570
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 7: ignored and say they ignored the downsides, but they didn't

571
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 7: do it, so they didn't do enough about them. So

572
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 7: Trump stepped into the sort of backlash that was building

573
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 7: and made it his own, you know, in twenty sixteen.

574
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 7: And Biden came in in twenty twenty and some people

575
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 7: thought he'd get rid of Trump's tariffs, but he did,

576
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 7: and he kept the way he did. He got rid

577
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 7: of the stuff on Europe and other things, but he

578
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 7: kept the tariffs on China and then introduced a very

579
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 7: aggressive industrial policy which he referred to the Chips Act,

580
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 7: the Infrastructure Act, and the part of the Green New

581
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 7: Deal aspects of the It wasn't really a green New Deal,

582
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 7: but a pro electric vehicles, pro green technology, aspects of

583
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 7: the American Rescue Act. And it was, you know, a

584
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 7: big shift for the Democrats to the sort of I

585
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 7: wouldn't say the Trumpian line, but in a more interventionist,

586
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 7: anti skepticism of tree trade.

587
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 6: So that and then at the end of his term.

588
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 7: Biden, when he was back, I think it was at

589
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 7: last September or October, he then doubled down on his

590
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 7: tariffs of China and raised them.

591
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 6: He remember he raised someone.

592
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 7: I think he raised the tariffs on electric vehicles Chinese

593
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 7: electric vehicles two one hundred percent, not as high as

594
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 7: Trump one hundred and forty five percent, but you know,

595
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 7: pretty high, more targeted. But you know, no way you

596
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 7: can describe that as a free trade policy. So I

597
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 7: think at this stage the sort of abandonment of the

598
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 7: old globalization model is a bi partisan thing. There are

599
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 7: few there are people on both sides who are still favorite,

600
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 7: but the sort of leadership of both parties have rejected

601
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 7: some extent. Now Trump has come in and taken that

602
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 7: sort of consensus and then twisted it, you know, tripled

603
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 7: down on it. I wouldn't say double down on it

604
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 7: with his blanket tariffs, tariffing countries, you know, tariffing poor countries,

605
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 7: putting huge tax on countries. Just Trump's not just anti

606
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 7: sort of unfair trade. Trump's anti all trade. It seems

607
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 7: like you eliminate all trade deficits, you know, and that

608
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 7: there's a huge difference between that and trying to just

609
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 7: target certain industries like Biden.

610
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 6: But that's where we stand out.

611
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 7: I don't think we're going back to the old model

612
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 7: of free trade agreements anytime soon.

613
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: Right, Trump seems to not like any trade. Now, is

614
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: he against trade because he's a racist?

615
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 5: Right?

616
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: Obviously? I mean I don't think anyone would think even

617
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: he might agree to that, or is he against free

618
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: trade because he doesn't understand how trade deficits work.

619
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 6: I think he doesn't really understand.

620
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 7: He doesn't have any real appreciation of sort of free

621
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 7: trade and the sort of arguments for it. Going back

622
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 7: to Adam Smith and David Ricardo featuring my book, you know,

623
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 7: the argument for free trade is if everybody does what

624
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 7: they're best at, then everybody can benefit the sort of

625
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 7: gains from trade. And if you know you can bring

626
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 7: it down to you can bring it down to individuals

627
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 7: trade every day. I mean the famous example is, you know,

628
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 7: going for a haircut or something. You could cut your

629
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 7: own hair. You know, you could be self sufficient in haircuts,

630
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 7: but it wouldn't be very good. You gain you gain

631
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 7: from hiring an expert to do it, and you pay them.

632
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 7: So you run a deficit with your barber or your hairdresser.

633
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 6: He doesn't he doesn't give you. He or she doesn't

634
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 6: give you any money, but you give them money. So

635
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 6: we all run trade differences in our daily lives with

636
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 6: all the people we deal with. That's what the free

637
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 6: market is.

638
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 7: That that's what I could you know, that's the capitalism

639
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 7: and I exchange you're based on the sort of gains

640
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 7: from trade among individuals. The argument for a free trade

641
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 7: among countries is very similar. That if we want to

642
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 7: buy avocados, it's probably a good idea to hire them

643
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 7: from Mexico, where they buy them from Mexico, where they

644
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 7: can make them in bulk more cheaply than we can, and.

645
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 6: We can call them you know, iPhones or whatever. They

646
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 6: don't have any and we do.

647
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 7: So it's a very basic Almost any you know, any

648
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 7: economist across the spectrum agrees with that. But Trump has

649
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 7: just got this idea in his mind. I mean, yeah,

650
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 7: I think if I said I used to cover Trump

651
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 7: back in the eighties when I worked on the London

652
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 7: Times as a sort of Wall Street correspondent, and even

653
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 7: back then he was pretty much the same. I mean,

654
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 7: there's this famous editorial. You know, used to buy himself

655
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 7: editorials in the New York Times, full page ads.

656
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: You know.

657
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 7: The famous one was the one against The most famous

658
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 7: and notorious one was when he called for sort of

659
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 7: death penalty for the.

660
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah for the Central Park.

661
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 7: But another one he took out was about imports, and

662
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 7: at the time, the threat to American jobs and industries

663
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 7: were seen to come from Japan. Japan was the sort

664
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 7: of mini China of its time, you know, Toyota, Nissan

665
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 7: Hondo making roads into American car market, and Trump called

666
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 7: for basically blanket bands on any imports made very exactly

667
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 7: in his saying they were basically cheating, they were stealing

668
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 7: our markets, same as things. He says, now you know

669
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 7: they were stealing our markets, taking our jobs away, and

670
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 7: it should be completely banned. I mean, I don't think

671
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 7: his views have changed in Iota, in you know, forty years.

672
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 7: It was all there in those editorials.

673
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 6: And I don't you can't really talk.

674
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 3: About a bit.

675
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 7: I mean, I'm sure some of his advisors do to

676
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 7: some to some extent try to when he you know,

677
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 7: when he says, let's put one hundred tariff on somebody,

678
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 7: I'm sure somebody says, are we sure about that, mister president,

679
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 7: But you know, he says, you're iron, and they just

680
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 7: go ahead. I mean, his argument is, you know, it's

681
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 7: all for bargaining purposes, but he talks across purposes. One

682
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 7: day he says, you know, we need it, we need

683
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 7: the huge tariffs because it'll strengthen our bargaining position and

684
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 7: they'll come beg in.

685
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 6: And then we'll greect great pills.

686
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 7: And then the next day he said, no, we we're

687
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 7: going to replace the tax system.

688
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 6: We don't need income tax anymore. We should switch to

689
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 6: just tariffs will make so much.

690
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 7: They those two things can't possibly fit together, because you know,

691
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 7: if it's the bargaining shape, you're bargaining away.

692
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 6: The idea is to bargain down the tariffs, and then

693
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 6: you wouldn't know.

694
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: Yes, I would love it if you could sort of

695
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: talk about where we are with the trade, because it

696
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: seems like we are on our way to a trade catastrophe.

697
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: But maybe I'm wrong. We don't have any deals yet.

698
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: From what I understand from the ports, from the information

699
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: on the ports, the ports are seem pretty spare. So

700
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: how does this how does this play out?

701
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, we're in a sort of interregnant period of the moment, Molly,

702
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 7: I think here whereas the policies have been put into effect,

703
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 7: especially the ones on China, but they haven't really hit

704
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 7: home yet. Companies order goods in advance, so most of

705
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 7: the goods they're using at the moment, or most retailers

706
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 7: are selling, you know, they ordered a year ago or

707
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 7: six months ago or whatever. So as this sort of

708
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 7: several month period of several months where Trump's announced these tariffs.

709
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 7: The hammer won't come down until, you know, the empty

710
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 7: ships don't arrive. There's already been big reports of the

711
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 7: famous one was Seattle. There was some day whether we're

712
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 7: apparently known, you know, no shipping containers in the port.

713
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 6: But I think that maybe was a bit of a flu.

714
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 7: And people think that by the end of May is

715
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 7: start of June and it really will be hitting home

716
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 7: and the shortages will start to kick in. I mean

717
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 7: that's what the retailers I think told Trump down at

718
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 7: the White House, head of you know, Home Depot, Walmart,

719
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 7: et cetera.

720
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 6: Were in there.

721
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: You know.

722
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 7: Trump came out the next day and you know, said,

723
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 7: this is not really going to happen. It's going to

724
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 7: be here. You know, we're going to make deals.

725
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 6: But now he seems to be changing his turn, and

726
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 6: he made this argument last week. You know he's done.

727
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 7: Now he's forced to make arguments that kids don't need all, yes,

728
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 7: as many pencils, they can have five pencils instead of

729
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 7: five hundred pencils, which is a remarkable argument for a

730
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 7: Republican president to make, because arguing against consumerism. For all

731
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 7: my life, the arguments against mass consumerism have come from

732
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 7: the left. Now Trump is because he's in this political corner,

733
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 7: he's forced to sort of make some of those arguments.

734
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,439
Speaker 7: And I wrote a piece facetiously arguing that he's become

735
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 7: a deep growth, which is in a very left wing position.

736
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 7: So I think, to get back to your question, if

737
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 7: he keeps the tariffs where they are now, there will

738
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 7: be an economic shock, and it will probably not the economy.

739
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 6: Into recession Wall Street. He's not going to do that.

740
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: Find someone who has faith in you the way the

741
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: public markets have faith in Donald Trump.

742
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 7: Well they I think, what the you know, the member

743
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 7: the Liberation Day, you know, when he his tariffs and

744
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 7: the markets basically collapsed, and when the markets collapsed, and

745
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 7: especially the bond market went into a tissy, Trump basically caved,

746
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 7: not basically he did cave.

747
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 6: You know, it came out.

748
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 7: He put the you know, he suspended all the ones

749
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 7: apart from China for ninety days.

750
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 6: He hinted that, you know, other ones that would be

751
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 6: coming down too.

752
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 7: So I think the markets took that as a sign

753
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 7: that when push comes to show, they.

754
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 6: Run things, not Trump.

755
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 7: They've had this remarkable comeback when the markets are basically

756
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 7: back to where you know, when he was elected. So

757
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 7: I think the market is maybe be where we're being

758
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 7: too optimistic because I think it's very difficult to predict Trump.

759
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 7: He does have this sort of got instinct that what

760
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 7: he's doing is right, and I think he would be

761
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 7: a huge climb down for him to get rid of

762
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 7: all his tariffs. But at the same time, he hates

763
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 7: the market going down. We know that judges every private

764
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 7: so he sort of is between a rock and a

765
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 7: hard place. Really, so I think we'll go We're going

766
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 7: to end up. He's just sort of more chaos with him,

767
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 7: you know, sort of bucking down on some things, up

768
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 7: in the stakes on others.

769
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: You know.

770
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 7: We so he announced this threatened this week that he's

771
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 7: got about a hundred percent tariffs on more in films.

772
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: Yes, those cash cass For a second, what I thought

773
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: was interesting about that chaos was that he was okay

774
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: with the market, the public markets creator but it was

775
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: when the bond market started freaking out. Now what I

776
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 1: think happened, and again, who the fuck knows, but it's

777
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: possible that someone went in and explained to him dollar flight.

778
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: I am like very interested in dollar flight. I just

779
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: read a really smart piece in The Economist about it.

780
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: Can you explain to us what dollar flight is and

781
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: why that is not an impossible I think it's unlikely,

782
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: but I think it's not impossible scenario right now.

783
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 7: Well, it's back up to the Liberation Day fiasco again

784
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 7: and the market reaction what really spoop people in the

785
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 7: markets and in the White House and in the FED

786
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 7: and everywhere.

787
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 6: Basically the stock.

788
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 7: Market went down, but the dollar and bonds went down

789
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 7: to Usually when you have a crisis, money floods into

790
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 7: the bond market because it's seen as as seen as

791
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 7: a safe reserve. The US bonds US treasuries. People switch

792
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 7: out of bonds and they buy US treasuries.

793
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 6: They do that all over the world.

794
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 7: So if you're in China or England or Germany or wherever,

795
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 7: and you're trying to buy US treasures, you have to

796
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 7: buy dollars first to do it, because you could only

797
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 7: buy obviously their dollar denominated. So people buy dollars to

798
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 7: buy treasuries. That boosts the value of the dollar. So

799
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 7: in a crisis, it's always been a case of almost

800
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 7: always that the stocks collapse, people freak out. But the

801
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 7: bond market bounces and the dollar goes up this time,

802
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 7: but the stock market collapsed, well actually nearly collapsed. It

803
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 7: went down a lot, but the bond market tanked with it.

804
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 7: People seem to be fleeing out of bonds and treasuries

805
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 7: as well the US bonds and buying things like gold

806
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 7: and other currencies, you know, maybe europe bonds issued in

807
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 7: Europe or even Japan or wherever. And that seemed to

808
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 7: especially be happening on the night of the Liberation Day

809
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 7: in Asia. It seems hedge funds or maybe Asian governments

810
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 7: or whatever, we're basically dumping dollars. And there are stories

811
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 7: in the markets which I've been told and not not

812
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 7: never been completely confirmed that Scott Less and the Treasury

813
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 7: Secretary was on the phone to hedge funds and foreign

814
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 7: governments in Asia saying, look, you know, you've got to

815
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 7: stop this.

816
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 6: We're going to deal with this crisis.

817
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: Working for Trump Man that it's not a good job.

818
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 7: So that happened. Then the question is, you know, are

819
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 7: we still vulnerable. Okay, he's reversed that, you know, he's

820
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 7: backed off. That could have happened again. I mean, the

821
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 7: problem is we're in a sort of overall situation in

822
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 7: which we are vulnerable because we run a huge you know,

823
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 7: we run a huge budget deficit and have have been

824
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 7: doing forever, and in order to in order to finance

825
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 7: that budget deficit, the treasury has to issue bonds, and

826
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 7: a lot of the buyers of those bonds historically over

827
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 7: the last decade or two have been foreigners, foreign governments,

828
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 7: including the Chinese government was famously.

829
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: Well, we are in a basically in a cold war

830
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: with at this point exactly, the unspoken assumption underneath Trump's

831
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: trade war is that we're the big guy on.

832
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 7: The block where the bully it can really do any

833
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 7: damage to us. Things are going to get bad, but

834
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 7: will come out best. Now, the fact that we're dependent

835
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 7: on foreign financing for the deficit sort of undermines that. So,

836
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 7: you know, maybe we're not as strong as we think

837
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 7: we are, or maybe as Trump thinks we are. So

838
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 7: that's always that's always the sort of tension here. And

839
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 7: you know, there's always this fear that maybe the Chinese

840
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 7: will start dumping bonds, maybe other governments will start dumping bonds,

841
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 7: and that would force you know, could in a crisis,

842
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 7: cause a collapse in the dollar and a big rise

843
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 7: in inflation. That's the sort of scenario we's developing countries

844
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 7: get into all the time, not the United States. I

845
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 7: think that's what we're so alarming to the markets and

846
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 7: to a lot of people. During the response to the Liberation,

847
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 7: Big Pretty Show. That's why they did a YouTube I

848
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 7: think basically made the same argument to child that I've

849
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 7: just made to you and said, we haven't ready to

850
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 7: go most choice, mister President.

851
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: We have to do something, and we can see that again.

852
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Thank you, John, and we're looking

853
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: forward to finishing the book.

854
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 6: Thanks very much for having me on.

855
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 3: No moment.

856
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon, Mali junk Fast.

857
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: New Mexico is feeling the wrath of the job course closure.

858
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 2: More than four hundred employees and students at Albuquerque and

859
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: Roswell campuses are impacted. According to the New Mexico Department

860
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: of Workforce.

861
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: Solutions, this is a moment of our grade that comes

862
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: directly from our friendly or in New Mexico. He just

863
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: sent me this thing. You know, you have this thing

864
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 1: called job Corpse. It's a small organization that helps people

865
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: get back on their feed. It is really good. It

866
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: trains kids to get jobs. It is like, these are

867
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: the things that we need our federal government to be doing.

868
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: It's not a huge amount of money to keep them going.

869
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: While Trump administration no more, Federal judge Wednesday temporarily block

870
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: job Corpse from closing by the end of the month

871
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: because this is money that Congress appropriated that the Trump

872
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: administration doesn't want to go towards the job Corpse, because

873
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: even though Congress created this and Congress should end it,

874
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: Trump has decided that the rounding error that is the

875
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: money to help these kids is not okay with him,

876
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Speaker 1: very very very annoying, upsetting, and also just unconstitutional. And that,

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Speaker 1: my friends, is our moment of fuck ray. That's it

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Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

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00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

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00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, asked,

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00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

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00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.