WEBVTT - What is Justice? 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 If you will place your left hand on the Bible 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.920 and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.440 and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find the 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.840 defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense, it 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.639 doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:22.840 all took the same of the office. We are all 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.480 bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to bear true faith and allegiance to the same that 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.199 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.480 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.640 to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:53.280 this is Sworn. I'm your host Philip Holloway. I viewed 0:00:53.320 --> 0:01:01.920 justice as being a collection of people assesses any laws 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.480 that has to be executed by human beings. Until we 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:12.160 can remove the human being aspect out of it. We're 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.440 not going to have perfection, But it is my hope, 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.240 my desire, my dream, if you will that we continue 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:25.880 to evolve. Technology evolves, our way of thinking evolves, crime 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:32.200 fighting tools evolved. A lot of people in society believe 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.720 they may not have anything to contribute to our legal 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.640 system because they're not attorneys, they're not police, they're not 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:45.360 district attorneys. But we as citizens all play a role. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:47.920 So what I would like to tell the general public 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.880 is that when you sit on a jury, please take 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.600 it seriously. A lot of the compics will tell you 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:01.760 never trust your life. The twelve People wants smart enough 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:07.600 to get off of Jerry. They're wrong. Jerry duty serious business. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:13.480 Jerry duty can save an innocent person from being incarcerated. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:21.840 Jerry duty can punish derightfully guilty. Please take Jerry Duty seriously. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.720 Welcome to the season finale of Sworn. We have been 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.120 extremely fortunate to talk to some amazing people this season, 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:43.000 and everything has centered around one central question. What is justice. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.040 This may sound like a simple question, but it's not 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.960 a question that can easily be answered in absolute terms. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.360 In this episode, we're going to look back to the 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.639 people who have shared their stories and their expertise with us, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.880 and from each of their unique person actives, we will 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.600 do our best to tell you what justice really is. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.880 We'll start with the exonorees we spoke to early in 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.840 the season. They know personally what it feels like to 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.960 be denied justice. At the beginning of the episode, you 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:23.040 heard from Joe Diaz, the man from the Eyewitness Testimony episode. 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.080 Joe was wrongfully convicted and served eight years for a 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.880 sexual assault he did not commit. The next voice is 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:36.160 William Dylon. William is from our episode on Polygraphs and 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.840 sent Dogs, who was wrongfully incarcerated for twenty seven years 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.320 for a murder he did not commit. Justice means truth, 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:50.800 that's all it means. It doesn't mean getting something for something. 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:56.840 Justice only means truth to me. This is Bill Richards 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:01.120 from the Bite Marks episode. Bill sir twenty three years 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:05.400 in a California prison after he found his wife murdered. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:11.280 Police still have not found the real killer. Justice to 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.839 me would be punishing the people who did to me, 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.400 because it would stop him from doing it to other people. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.960 It's not that I'm bengeful, It's just that the only 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.120 way to stoft people is to see justice, and then 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.200 justice would be if they actually went after I found 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.919 who did this to my wife. But justice would be 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:34.520 punishing the right person and stopping people doing this like 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.680 what happened to me. I don't believe any person went 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.680 to prison who was innocent without some kind of misconduct 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.640 and that needs to be stopped. And the way to 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:44.960 stop that is you need to punish the people doing 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.880 it so the next guy doesn't do it. Lastly, we 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.960 have Calvin Johnson from the episode on racial bias. Calvin, 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.039 who is an African American was convicted by an all 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:01.360 whiet jury and wrongfully served sixteen year of a life sentence. 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.919 But what was this justice being to me? Probably the 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:10.120 same thing everybody else said, just uf If the word 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.440 justice will actually taken into exact content as the way 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.280 it should be, it means fair, equal quality for all 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.800 human beings. The problem is is just the justice system itself. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.160 It's not justice because of the flaws. Therefore, it's not 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:32.400 equal equality for all citizens. Its inequality for its citizens 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.800 based on who they may be. Lower income people that 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.359 don't have the money to have to be able to 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.480 fight against the justice system that has all the odds 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.080 and all the policies and procedures stacked up against you. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.440 It's against uh, the minorities. So it's just when you 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:55.600 look at it like that, the word justice does not 0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:01.279 being honored and portrayed or fulfilled to be the truth. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.039 Just as the United States right now really doesn't exist 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:10.520 except for rare cases. During our episode on Calvin's case, 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:14.359 we spoke with Molly Palmer. Molly is an attorney and 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.479 board member of the Georgia Innocence Project. In our interview 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.320 with Molly, we told her how Calvin has answered this 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:26.679 question about justice, that justice is just us. She said 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.440 that kind of insight is common among the Axonorees she 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.000 works with. You know, one of the things in working 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:38.960 with Axonorees, you know, they're never better. They spend so 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.880 many years behind bars, and they emerge grateful and happy 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.479 to have whatever life they have left. And at the 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.360 same time, you know, I think that there there are 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.480 certain things that they say that really gets to the 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.840 heart of their experience. Calvin is so gracious and such 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.960 a lovely man, but that kind of statement is so 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:03.240 heavy because as what it's saying is, so long as 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.880 you have a wrongfully imprisoned man, a single one man 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.640 or woman, so long as there is one person that 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:14.000 the system has failed, it's not justice. It just can't be. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.440 I believe that justice does not look for the guilty, 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:24.200 it looks for the innocent. This is Dr Joel Zibet 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.920 from our episode on lethal injection. Justice is something that 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.880 you need to test on the people you despise. Justice 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.840 is the thing that works for people that we hate 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.720 and that we can't stand. And justice is about the 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:44.640 fair distribution of the way that people are brought forth 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.800 to trial, of what their punishment should look like, of 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:52.120 how society should look. There is this problem in America 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.600 with too many people incarcerated. There's two point two million 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.440 people in this country are in prisons. We stand out 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:03.160 in civil societies to have this many people incarcerated, and 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.160 so there's a talk about trying to reduce incarceration rate 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.040 and trying to find alternatives. You know, it's interesting too 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:13.120 because it's complicated. I'll give you an example. Jesse Smollett 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:18.040 in Chicago. It's unclear what happened there. Something strange happened. 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.520 He seemed to be involved in it. Now the question 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.760 is to how to punish him. And so it turned 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.480 out that his punishment was to do community service of 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.800 some sort, which, if I think of it, seems perfectly 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.959 reasonable to me, Like what does it matter? Why should 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.679 a person like that go to prison? And yet people 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:42.360 are very outraged that he didn't go to prison, that 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.880 the district attorney, I think dropped the charges because some 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.440 other deal was made. And so I think that our 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.959 desire for what we think is justice, or the need 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.760 to incarcerate people, I think runs pretty deep in America 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.520 these days. And until we get over this need to 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:06.920 incarceraate everybody, I think that what really we would consider 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.760 to be a just society is still often the distance. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.439 So to me, justice doesn't look like putting everybody in prison. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.120 And I think also the justice requires telling the story 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.360 of the defense as well as the prosecution. The media 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:27.559 and television is fascinated by the stories of the prosecution, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:32.760 and there's very little stories about the defense. I believe 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.920 that people should be innocent until proven guilty. I believe 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.400 that they should not be prejudged, and I think that 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.160 these are necessary parts of a just system. A just 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:47.319 system is open and honest and accountable and available. So 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:54.160 that's my view of justice. Here's Amelia Maxfield, a forensic 0:09:54.200 --> 0:10:00.320 specialist for the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. From my specific stand point, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:06.560 what justice means now is finality. Our system preferences the 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.559 resolution of cases over getting it right. That is written 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.360 in our case law, in our precedent. It's more important 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.760 for a case to be over then for the right 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.920 person to be in prison or even on death row, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.000 or even executed for that crime. And I think that 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:27.079 plays out across the system in the pressure to plead 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.600 guilty to small misdemeanors in order to not inconvenience the 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.640 court by having a trial. Our system is just designed 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:39.280 to grind people through, from misdemeanor convictions to homicide cases. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.240 We just want resolution, We just wanted to be over. 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:44.680 I don't believe that should be a principle of any 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.360 justice system. That may have made sense when we didn't 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.560 have DNA testing, when we didn't have evolving science, but 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.000 science inherently evolved, and if you're going to be using 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.320 evidence that changes and developed to secure conviction, you have 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.800 to be open into revisiting that conviction as the science 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.840 or the evidence changes and evolved. The justice system should 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:12.160 preference getting it right over having it resolved. I think 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.320 it should be much more important to be sure that 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.120 the evidence that's being used is reliable and valid and accurate, 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.800 rather than just securing a conviction and resolving a case 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:28.160 just to have it resolved. Here's Justin Brooks, the director 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.840 and co founder of the California Innocence Project, pointing out 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.520 how different economic factors can affect justice. Well, that's where 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.360 we start seeing the separation of rich from poor in 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.320 terms of getting the amount of justice you can afford. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.960 The defense attorney can obviously ask the judge for those resources, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.720 can petition to get those experts, but every county in 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.120 America has limits on that, and it will depend on 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.880 what the county budget is and how much they allocate 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.200 to experts, and whether the judge thinks you need it 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.120 or not. But those decisions is won't be left up 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.800 to you, the defendant if you're indigent, and a lot 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.199 of times your lawyer won't be able to get the 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.959 resources they need. What I've seen in California, which is interesting, 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.120 which I think is counterintuitive for most people, is that 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:18.360 almost all our exonerations came from cases where private lawyers 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.000 were handling the case that we're either appointed by the 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:25.480 court or retained, and very few cases where there were 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.160 public defenders. And I think it's because in public defender cases, 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:35.560 the public defenders have training, experience, supervisors, and probably most 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:40.000 importantly in my cases, access to investigators, where sometimes you 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.640 have private attorneys that are very small offices don't have 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.719 a lot of resources. The families come forward with all 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.760 the money they have, and it's still not enough to 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.200 put together a good defense, and so they might go 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.720 a little short on the investigation or retaining experts or 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.080 doing things like that, whereas public defenders offices often do 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.600 a better job on that. And I think the general 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.640 public thinks the opposite is true, that you're always better 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.880 with a private lawyer than you are a public defender. 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.319 And again I'm not saying there's not amazing private lawyers 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.240 out there with amazing law firms, and when they have 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.720 the right resources and people can compensate them, that they 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.559 aren't the best. But I think the problem is in 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.280 the middle. Where are you better off having a lawyer 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.640 without that much experience who as a private lawyer who 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.520 has no supervision and no investigators. Are you better off 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.400 getting a public offender to represent you? And I think 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.760 often when you don't have any resources, you're better off 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:38.560 with the public defender. The systems are so different county 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.040 to county. I worked as a quarter pointed lawyer in Michigan, 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.480 and I give you an example of a thing that 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.560 just denies people due process is when I did it 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.120 in Lansing, Michigan, I would get paid per case and 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.680 it was a flat fee. When I did it in 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.240 in Arbor, Michigan, I got paid by the hour. And 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.560 so if I took a case to trial in Lansing, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.080 I would still get the same amount of money as 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.120 if I played it out, And if I took a 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.360 case to trial in ann Arbor, I would get paid 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.040 for all those trial hours. So what's going to happen 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.719 when people are running businesses and have to pay their 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.400 mortgage and pay for their kids schooling and all that. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.280 We actually set a system up where it makes it 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.200 very difficult for lawyers to provide the same services. And 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.640 in California we have some of these crazy contracts out 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.680 in some of the smaller counties where one lawyer will 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.720 contract for the entire indigent defense work for the year 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.360 for the county. And now they're running a business that 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.600 gets a contract, and the more money they spend, the 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.800 less money they make on that contract. And this is 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.320 not good and it's it's crazy that within the same country, 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.480 with the same sixth Amendment the Federal Constitution, there's such 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:56.000 varying quality and resources on the defense side of the work. 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.760 And that's true not only just state to state, but 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.120 county by county within the same state. Because if what's 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.280 all about is getting the truth, and those resources will 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.880 assist the fact finder and getting to the truth, and 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:09.680 there should be no question about it. It shouldn't be 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.000 about well, he shouldn't get it. It should be about, well, 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.240 this best assist us in finding out the truth. It's 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.120 in all our best interests that innocent people aren't convicted 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.400 and that guilty people are and if providing additional resources 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:43.600 gets us there, it should happen. Here's retired judge and 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:49.600 lawyer Ray Gary Jr. Every county has their own, their 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:55.880 own idea of justice. For example, during my middle years 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.560 as a lawyer, Fulton County and cob Can Honey are 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:05.800 separated by a river. Fulton County was run by Democrats, 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:11.680 Cobb County was run by Republicans. I had a client 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.960 charged with a sex crime. Most of my cases were 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:20.080 in Cobb County, and I knew from experience he'd be 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.240 looking at ten years in prison, are going to trial 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.240 and taking his chance. But this case wasn't in Cobb County, 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.520 it was next door in Fulton County. The judge sent 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.320 a letter out and said we're bringing everybody in and 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.760 this will be your only chance to do a plea bargain. 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.520 If you don't do a polea burgain on this court date, 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.040 you're going to trial. So I got down there and 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.760 the prosecutor offered me to reduce it to a misdemeanor 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.480 and give him twelve months probation and not be a 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.200 sex offender. And I was thinking, this is too good 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:58.040 to be true. You know, from our perspective that if 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.800 this was in my Republican county and I live in, 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.160 you know, the best offer would have been twenty to 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.520 do ten be a lifestun sex offender. Because it happened 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.639 across the other side of the river, then it was 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:16.919 twelve months probation, no sex offender. We naturally jumped on 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.920 it and played guilty that very day. One funny thing 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.040 happened was I had charged my client ten thousand dollars 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.360 because I thought it was going to be a lot 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.639 more to it than that, and so he had paid 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.480 it in cash. The next day, after he played guilt, 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.720 didn't get out of jail, he called up and he said, 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.080 he said, listen, I gave you a lot of money 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.159 didn't you. I said, you sure did. I said that 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.040 was a lot of money. He said, you really didn't 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.440 have to do all that much. I said, that's true, 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.880 as it didn't. As it worked out, I really didn't 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.040 have to do a whole lot. He said, well, I 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.520 don't think I got my money's worth. I said, well, 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.680 you're in luck, I said, because the prosecutor is having 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.760 set at thoughts. She's wishing that she had never gave 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.720 you that deal. So I can go down there and 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.000 withdraw your plea and put you on the trial calendar 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.080 for Monday morning, first trial out, and we can we 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.399 can take this plea bargain off the table and have 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.480 your trial. And I said, a matter of fact, let 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:18.400 me put your on hole and I'll get my secretary 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.520 to get started on the motion and I can drive 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.520 down there, you know, this afternoon and foul it. He's 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.520 a hold up on that. Let me think about it. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.760 And so I never heard back from him. But for everyone, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.080 I came out smelling like a rose. There was ten 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:37.600 were I ended up being paid way too little. This 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.320 is defense attorney Michelle Tiegel on the idea of what 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.760 it means to win your case. I struggled with that. 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.239 When I first started doing criminal defense, I was an 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.199 athlete and I really wanted to win for all of 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.600 my clients. I had to redefine what winning means, and 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.480 I learned a lot about that from my former law 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.280 partner and kind of make me a little teary, because 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.720 as a criminal defense lawyer and also as a prosecutor, 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.680 we have to redefine what winning means. There were cases 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.240 where winning meant I had to be an advocate to 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.440 my client about taking what really was the best deal 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.800 and the best thing for their life. In some cases, 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.280 winning meant we fought to the very bitter end until 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.800 we got an acquittal, and we got it. In some 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:32.040 cases capital murder cases where the evidence was strong on 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:37.800 the state side and difficult to deal with, just preventing 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.480 a death sentence and getting life without parole was a win, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.240 and that was a win that I struggled to wrap 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:48.720 my head around. But I had situations where just making 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.200 sure the state couldn't kill my client was a win. 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.000 And I would have never thought, starting as a baby 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.920 criminal defense lawyer, that a life without parole could go 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.320 in the win category. Glory, but winning is relative and 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.280 criminal practice and criminal law on both sides, and I 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.320 hope that from the prosecutor's side, and I know there 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.920 are prosecutors like this, that they will also start redefining 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.040 winning and that it will truly be based not just 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.480 on I'm going to get this conviction or I'm going 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:24.480 to advocate for this victim that is sometimes their role, 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.400 but that they're really going to just try to make 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.400 the right decision that serves the community and that does justice, 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:32.840 because that's what they're there to do. I think when 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:38.120 they lose sight of that, it creates a really dangerous system. 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:43.680 Here's Georgia prosecutor Jesse Evans. Justice means getting it right, 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.959 and we're all striving to get it right. It requires 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.080 that we act honorably. We try to act impartially trying 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.400 to get to the right fair results. So justice really 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.080 is about getting it right and about being fair. I 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.040 think that's the best way to find it. And as 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.280 long as we're acting honorably and we have the best 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.439 intentions within the criminal justice system, my experiences that we 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.080 usually get there, and they're rare instances where fairness is 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.440 not reached, where you have an outcome that seems unjust. 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.399 But I think those are more to the exception and 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.679 not the norm, and I think that's a product of 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.720 experience in time. A criminal justice system is not without 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.800 its flaws. I think we're always moving towards making it 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.159 better and open to the idea that we need to 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.359 be reflective. We need to be introspective from a criminal 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.440 justice perspective and say, are the ways of doing things 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.800 better to make sure that we get to that fairness, 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:36.119 to get to that right, results driven goal. This is 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.640 Ashley Wilcot, a lawyer who specializes in child welfare cases. 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.600 She's also a judge into cab County, Georgia. We last 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.320 heard from her in our episode on racial bias. Oh, 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.760 people are gonna hear this response and think, oh, she 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.800 lives in our own little world. But again, justice is blind. 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.320 There's a reason there's a blindfold on, lady. Justice. Justice 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:03.440 is blind. We have lost for a reason. We have crimes. 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.080 What what constitute a crime and how it's defined for 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:10.560 a reason in a perfect world, that's applicable to everyone equally. 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.520 In a perfect world, if you commit a crime, if 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.840 you violate a law, you're arrested, but you then face 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.440 a fair trial. You are presumed innocent. It doesn't matter 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.119 if there's a video of you doing it. You are 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:28.080 presumed innocent until it has proven in a court of law, 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:30.639 because I would keep in mind that a video that 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:32.960 you look at does not give you a three hundred 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.399 and sixty degree view. So you have to be convicted 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.280 by a jury of your peers or by a judge 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.720 if you choose to waive that. In a perfect world, 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:49.199 that process works the same for every individual, regardless of 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:54.359 their age, regardless of their color, regardless their gender or 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:59.920 gender identification. That's what justice is for me. This is 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:05.960 Federal judge jed Rakoff from New York. I have a 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:12.280 deep believer that just sense requires the judge to get 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:16.200 deeply into the facts, effects of the crime, the effects 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:21.080 of the criminal, effects of the victims, and to do 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:25.440 the very difficult and of an agonizing but careful job 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:30.800 of figuring out what sense makes sense when you factor 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:37.919 in those various opponents. The mandatory minimums, of course, prevent 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:42.200 you from doing that whatsoever. But even the sentencing guidelines 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:46.240 within the federal system are no longer mandatory, but they 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:52.720 might view are mistake because they emphasize certain factors, usually 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:59.440 in excess of other factors. So, for example, the sensing 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:05.040 guide lie as federal sentencing guidelines for drugs are vastly 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.760 dependent on the weight of the drugs that are sold, 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:14.520 and that means that if you have a large scale 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:21.080 narcotics conspiracy, even the lowest level person faces to huge 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:25.680 sense because the conspiracy as a whole distributed a lot 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:28.640 of drugs. This does not make sense to base. So 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:32.879 I would go back to the system that it persisted 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:36.879 in this nation for nearly two hundred years, which was 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.120 we leave it to the good sense of the judge, 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:42.720 and we encourage our judges to do a lot of 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.800 my work before they impose sense. Here's Kevin Ring, the 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:52.400 president of fam formally known as Families Against Mandatory Minimums. 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:57.119 So what we want to see is judges be allowed 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:59.960 to sentence again. We think judges need to have to 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.520 discretion to fashion punishments that fit the unique facts and 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:07.240 circumstances of each crime. Not every crime is the same, 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.400 not every defendant's the same. We don't want to see 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:15.320 people treated differently for reasons that aren't relevant, like grace 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.400 or gender or things like that. But we want people 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:21.000 who are more serious offenders to get longer punishments and 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:24.000 less serious offenders to get shorter punishments. And that sounds 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:26.879 so obvious and basic, but that's not the way the 0:25:26.920 --> 0:25:30.200 system works. It's too much of a game now who 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:33.280 can plead first, who has more information to give up, 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:35.640 And so we have too many cases where low level 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:39.000 offenders are getting longer punishments because they don't have any information. 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:42.040 They can't give anybody up. We think the only way 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:44.639