1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find the 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense, it 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: all took the same of the office. We are all 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to bear true faith and allegiance to the same that 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: this is Sworn. I'm your host Philip Holloway. I viewed 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: justice as being a collection of people assesses any laws 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: that has to be executed by human beings. Until we 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: can remove the human being aspect out of it. We're 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: not going to have perfection, But it is my hope, 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: my desire, my dream, if you will that we continue 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: to evolve. Technology evolves, our way of thinking evolves, crime 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: fighting tools evolved. A lot of people in society believe 21 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: they may not have anything to contribute to our legal 22 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: system because they're not attorneys, they're not police, they're not 23 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: district attorneys. But we as citizens all play a role. 24 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: So what I would like to tell the general public 25 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: is that when you sit on a jury, please take 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: it seriously. A lot of the compics will tell you 27 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: never trust your life. The twelve People wants smart enough 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: to get off of Jerry. They're wrong. Jerry duty serious business. 29 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: Jerry duty can save an innocent person from being incarcerated. 30 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: Jerry duty can punish derightfully guilty. Please take Jerry Duty seriously. 31 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the season finale of Sworn. We have been 32 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: extremely fortunate to talk to some amazing people this season, 33 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: and everything has centered around one central question. What is justice. 34 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: This may sound like a simple question, but it's not 35 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: a question that can easily be answered in absolute terms. 36 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to look back to the 37 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: people who have shared their stories and their expertise with us, 38 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: and from each of their unique person actives, we will 39 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: do our best to tell you what justice really is. 40 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: We'll start with the exonorees we spoke to early in 41 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: the season. They know personally what it feels like to 42 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: be denied justice. At the beginning of the episode, you 43 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: heard from Joe Diaz, the man from the Eyewitness Testimony episode. 44 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: Joe was wrongfully convicted and served eight years for a 45 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: sexual assault he did not commit. The next voice is 46 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: William Dylon. William is from our episode on Polygraphs and 47 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: sent Dogs, who was wrongfully incarcerated for twenty seven years 48 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: for a murder he did not commit. Justice means truth, 49 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: that's all it means. It doesn't mean getting something for something. 50 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: Justice only means truth to me. This is Bill Richards 51 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: from the Bite Marks episode. Bill sir twenty three years 52 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: in a California prison after he found his wife murdered. 53 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: Police still have not found the real killer. Justice to 54 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: me would be punishing the people who did to me, 55 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: because it would stop him from doing it to other people. 56 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: It's not that I'm bengeful, It's just that the only 57 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: way to stoft people is to see justice, and then 58 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: justice would be if they actually went after I found 59 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: who did this to my wife. But justice would be 60 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: punishing the right person and stopping people doing this like 61 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: what happened to me. I don't believe any person went 62 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: to prison who was innocent without some kind of misconduct 63 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: and that needs to be stopped. And the way to 64 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: stop that is you need to punish the people doing 65 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: it so the next guy doesn't do it. Lastly, we 66 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: have Calvin Johnson from the episode on racial bias. Calvin, 67 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: who is an African American was convicted by an all 68 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: whiet jury and wrongfully served sixteen year of a life sentence. 69 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: But what was this justice being to me? Probably the 70 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: same thing everybody else said, just uf If the word 71 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: justice will actually taken into exact content as the way 72 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: it should be, it means fair, equal quality for all 73 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: human beings. The problem is is just the justice system itself. 74 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: It's not justice because of the flaws. Therefore, it's not 75 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: equal equality for all citizens. Its inequality for its citizens 76 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: based on who they may be. Lower income people that 77 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: don't have the money to have to be able to 78 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: fight against the justice system that has all the odds 79 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: and all the policies and procedures stacked up against you. 80 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: It's against uh, the minorities. So it's just when you 81 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: look at it like that, the word justice does not 82 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: being honored and portrayed or fulfilled to be the truth. 83 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: Just as the United States right now really doesn't exist 84 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: except for rare cases. During our episode on Calvin's case, 85 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: we spoke with Molly Palmer. Molly is an attorney and 86 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: board member of the Georgia Innocence Project. In our interview 87 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: with Molly, we told her how Calvin has answered this 88 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,679 Speaker 1: question about justice, that justice is just us. She said 89 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: that kind of insight is common among the Axonorees she 90 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: works with. You know, one of the things in working 91 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: with Axonorees, you know, they're never better. They spend so 92 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: many years behind bars, and they emerge grateful and happy 93 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: to have whatever life they have left. And at the 94 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: same time, you know, I think that there there are 95 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: certain things that they say that really gets to the 96 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: heart of their experience. Calvin is so gracious and such 97 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: a lovely man, but that kind of statement is so 98 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: heavy because as what it's saying is, so long as 99 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: you have a wrongfully imprisoned man, a single one man 100 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: or woman, so long as there is one person that 101 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: the system has failed, it's not justice. It just can't be. 102 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: I believe that justice does not look for the guilty, 103 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: it looks for the innocent. This is Dr Joel Zibet 104 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: from our episode on lethal injection. Justice is something that 105 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: you need to test on the people you despise. Justice 106 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: is the thing that works for people that we hate 107 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: and that we can't stand. And justice is about the 108 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: fair distribution of the way that people are brought forth 109 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: to trial, of what their punishment should look like, of 110 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: how society should look. There is this problem in America 111 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: with too many people incarcerated. There's two point two million 112 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: people in this country are in prisons. We stand out 113 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: in civil societies to have this many people incarcerated, and 114 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: so there's a talk about trying to reduce incarceration rate 115 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: and trying to find alternatives. You know, it's interesting too 116 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: because it's complicated. I'll give you an example. Jesse Smollett 117 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: in Chicago. It's unclear what happened there. Something strange happened. 118 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: He seemed to be involved in it. Now the question 119 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: is to how to punish him. And so it turned 120 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: out that his punishment was to do community service of 121 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: some sort, which, if I think of it, seems perfectly 122 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: reasonable to me, Like what does it matter? Why should 123 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: a person like that go to prison? And yet people 124 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: are very outraged that he didn't go to prison, that 125 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: the district attorney, I think dropped the charges because some 126 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: other deal was made. And so I think that our 127 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: desire for what we think is justice, or the need 128 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: to incarcerate people, I think runs pretty deep in America 129 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: these days. And until we get over this need to 130 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: incarceraate everybody, I think that what really we would consider 131 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: to be a just society is still often the distance. 132 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: So to me, justice doesn't look like putting everybody in prison. 133 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: And I think also the justice requires telling the story 134 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: of the defense as well as the prosecution. The media 135 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: and television is fascinated by the stories of the prosecution, 136 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: and there's very little stories about the defense. I believe 137 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: that people should be innocent until proven guilty. I believe 138 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: that they should not be prejudged, and I think that 139 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: these are necessary parts of a just system. A just 140 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: system is open and honest and accountable and available. So 141 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: that's my view of justice. Here's Amelia Maxfield, a forensic 142 00:09:54,200 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: specialist for the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. From my specific stand point, 143 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: what justice means now is finality. Our system preferences the 144 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: resolution of cases over getting it right. That is written 145 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: in our case law, in our precedent. It's more important 146 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: for a case to be over then for the right 147 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: person to be in prison or even on death row, 148 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: or even executed for that crime. And I think that 149 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: plays out across the system in the pressure to plead 150 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: guilty to small misdemeanors in order to not inconvenience the 151 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: court by having a trial. Our system is just designed 152 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: to grind people through, from misdemeanor convictions to homicide cases. 153 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: We just want resolution, We just wanted to be over. 154 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: I don't believe that should be a principle of any 155 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: justice system. That may have made sense when we didn't 156 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: have DNA testing, when we didn't have evolving science, but 157 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: science inherently evolved, and if you're going to be using 158 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: evidence that changes and developed to secure conviction, you have 159 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: to be open into revisiting that conviction as the science 160 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: or the evidence changes and evolved. The justice system should 161 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: preference getting it right over having it resolved. I think 162 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: it should be much more important to be sure that 163 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: the evidence that's being used is reliable and valid and accurate, 164 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: rather than just securing a conviction and resolving a case 165 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: just to have it resolved. Here's Justin Brooks, the director 166 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: and co founder of the California Innocence Project, pointing out 167 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: how different economic factors can affect justice. Well, that's where 168 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: we start seeing the separation of rich from poor in 169 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: terms of getting the amount of justice you can afford. 170 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: The defense attorney can obviously ask the judge for those resources, 171 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: can petition to get those experts, but every county in 172 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: America has limits on that, and it will depend on 173 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: what the county budget is and how much they allocate 174 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: to experts, and whether the judge thinks you need it 175 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: or not. But those decisions is won't be left up 176 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: to you, the defendant if you're indigent, and a lot 177 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: of times your lawyer won't be able to get the 178 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: resources they need. What I've seen in California, which is interesting, 179 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: which I think is counterintuitive for most people, is that 180 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: almost all our exonerations came from cases where private lawyers 181 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: were handling the case that we're either appointed by the 182 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: court or retained, and very few cases where there were 183 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: public defenders. And I think it's because in public defender cases, 184 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: the public defenders have training, experience, supervisors, and probably most 185 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: importantly in my cases, access to investigators, where sometimes you 186 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: have private attorneys that are very small offices don't have 187 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: a lot of resources. The families come forward with all 188 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: the money they have, and it's still not enough to 189 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: put together a good defense, and so they might go 190 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: a little short on the investigation or retaining experts or 191 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: doing things like that, whereas public defenders offices often do 192 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: a better job on that. And I think the general 193 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: public thinks the opposite is true, that you're always better 194 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: with a private lawyer than you are a public defender. 195 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: And again I'm not saying there's not amazing private lawyers 196 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: out there with amazing law firms, and when they have 197 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: the right resources and people can compensate them, that they 198 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: aren't the best. But I think the problem is in 199 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: the middle. Where are you better off having a lawyer 200 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: without that much experience who as a private lawyer who 201 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: has no supervision and no investigators. Are you better off 202 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: getting a public offender to represent you? And I think 203 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: often when you don't have any resources, you're better off 204 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: with the public defender. The systems are so different county 205 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: to county. I worked as a quarter pointed lawyer in Michigan, 206 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: and I give you an example of a thing that 207 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: just denies people due process is when I did it 208 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: in Lansing, Michigan, I would get paid per case and 209 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: it was a flat fee. When I did it in 210 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: in Arbor, Michigan, I got paid by the hour. And 211 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: so if I took a case to trial in Lansing, 212 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: I would still get the same amount of money as 213 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: if I played it out, And if I took a 214 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: case to trial in ann Arbor, I would get paid 215 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: for all those trial hours. So what's going to happen 216 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: when people are running businesses and have to pay their 217 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: mortgage and pay for their kids schooling and all that. 218 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: We actually set a system up where it makes it 219 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: very difficult for lawyers to provide the same services. And 220 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: in California we have some of these crazy contracts out 221 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: in some of the smaller counties where one lawyer will 222 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: contract for the entire indigent defense work for the year 223 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: for the county. And now they're running a business that 224 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: gets a contract, and the more money they spend, the 225 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: less money they make on that contract. And this is 226 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: not good and it's it's crazy that within the same country, 227 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: with the same sixth Amendment the Federal Constitution, there's such 228 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: varying quality and resources on the defense side of the work. 229 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: And that's true not only just state to state, but 230 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: county by county within the same state. Because if what's 231 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: all about is getting the truth, and those resources will 232 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: assist the fact finder and getting to the truth, and 233 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: there should be no question about it. It shouldn't be 234 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: about well, he shouldn't get it. It should be about, well, 235 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: this best assist us in finding out the truth. It's 236 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: in all our best interests that innocent people aren't convicted 237 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: and that guilty people are and if providing additional resources 238 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: gets us there, it should happen. Here's retired judge and 239 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: lawyer Ray Gary Jr. Every county has their own, their 240 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: own idea of justice. For example, during my middle years 241 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: as a lawyer, Fulton County and cob Can Honey are 242 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: separated by a river. Fulton County was run by Democrats, 243 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: Cobb County was run by Republicans. I had a client 244 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: charged with a sex crime. Most of my cases were 245 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: in Cobb County, and I knew from experience he'd be 246 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: looking at ten years in prison, are going to trial 247 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: and taking his chance. But this case wasn't in Cobb County, 248 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: it was next door in Fulton County. The judge sent 249 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: a letter out and said we're bringing everybody in and 250 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: this will be your only chance to do a plea bargain. 251 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: If you don't do a polea burgain on this court date, 252 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: you're going to trial. So I got down there and 253 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: the prosecutor offered me to reduce it to a misdemeanor 254 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: and give him twelve months probation and not be a 255 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: sex offender. And I was thinking, this is too good 256 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: to be true. You know, from our perspective that if 257 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: this was in my Republican county and I live in, 258 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, the best offer would have been twenty to 259 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: do ten be a lifestun sex offender. Because it happened 260 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: across the other side of the river, then it was 261 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: twelve months probation, no sex offender. We naturally jumped on 262 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: it and played guilty that very day. One funny thing 263 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: happened was I had charged my client ten thousand dollars 264 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: because I thought it was going to be a lot 265 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: more to it than that, and so he had paid 266 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: it in cash. The next day, after he played guilt, 267 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: didn't get out of jail, he called up and he said, 268 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: he said, listen, I gave you a lot of money 269 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: didn't you. I said, you sure did. I said that 270 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: was a lot of money. He said, you really didn't 271 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: have to do all that much. I said, that's true, 272 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: as it didn't. As it worked out, I really didn't 273 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: have to do a whole lot. He said, well, I 274 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: don't think I got my money's worth. I said, well, 275 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: you're in luck, I said, because the prosecutor is having 276 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: set at thoughts. She's wishing that she had never gave 277 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: you that deal. So I can go down there and 278 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: withdraw your plea and put you on the trial calendar 279 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: for Monday morning, first trial out, and we can we 280 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: can take this plea bargain off the table and have 281 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: your trial. And I said, a matter of fact, let 282 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: me put your on hole and I'll get my secretary 283 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: to get started on the motion and I can drive 284 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: down there, you know, this afternoon and foul it. He's 285 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: a hold up on that. Let me think about it. 286 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: And so I never heard back from him. But for everyone, 287 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: I came out smelling like a rose. There was ten 288 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: were I ended up being paid way too little. This 289 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: is defense attorney Michelle Tiegel on the idea of what 290 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: it means to win your case. I struggled with that. 291 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 1: When I first started doing criminal defense, I was an 292 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: athlete and I really wanted to win for all of 293 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: my clients. I had to redefine what winning means, and 294 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: I learned a lot about that from my former law 295 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: partner and kind of make me a little teary, because 296 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: as a criminal defense lawyer and also as a prosecutor, 297 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: we have to redefine what winning means. There were cases 298 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: where winning meant I had to be an advocate to 299 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: my client about taking what really was the best deal 300 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: and the best thing for their life. In some cases, 301 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: winning meant we fought to the very bitter end until 302 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: we got an acquittal, and we got it. In some 303 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: cases capital murder cases where the evidence was strong on 304 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: the state side and difficult to deal with, just preventing 305 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: a death sentence and getting life without parole was a win, 306 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: and that was a win that I struggled to wrap 307 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: my head around. But I had situations where just making 308 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: sure the state couldn't kill my client was a win. 309 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: And I would have never thought, starting as a baby 310 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyer, that a life without parole could go 311 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: in the win category. Glory, but winning is relative and 312 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: criminal practice and criminal law on both sides, and I 313 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: hope that from the prosecutor's side, and I know there 314 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: are prosecutors like this, that they will also start redefining 315 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: winning and that it will truly be based not just 316 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: on I'm going to get this conviction or I'm going 317 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: to advocate for this victim that is sometimes their role, 318 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: but that they're really going to just try to make 319 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: the right decision that serves the community and that does justice, 320 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: because that's what they're there to do. I think when 321 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: they lose sight of that, it creates a really dangerous system. 322 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: Here's Georgia prosecutor Jesse Evans. Justice means getting it right, 323 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: and we're all striving to get it right. It requires 324 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: that we act honorably. We try to act impartially trying 325 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: to get to the right fair results. So justice really 326 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: is about getting it right and about being fair. I 327 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: think that's the best way to find it. And as 328 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: long as we're acting honorably and we have the best 329 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: intentions within the criminal justice system, my experiences that we 330 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: usually get there, and they're rare instances where fairness is 331 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: not reached, where you have an outcome that seems unjust. 332 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: But I think those are more to the exception and 333 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: not the norm, and I think that's a product of 334 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: experience in time. A criminal justice system is not without 335 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: its flaws. I think we're always moving towards making it 336 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: better and open to the idea that we need to 337 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: be reflective. We need to be introspective from a criminal 338 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: justice perspective and say, are the ways of doing things 339 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: better to make sure that we get to that fairness, 340 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: to get to that right, results driven goal. This is 341 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot, a lawyer who specializes in child welfare cases. 342 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: She's also a judge into cab County, Georgia. We last 343 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: heard from her in our episode on racial bias. Oh, 344 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: people are gonna hear this response and think, oh, she 345 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: lives in our own little world. But again, justice is blind. 346 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: There's a reason there's a blindfold on, lady. Justice. Justice 347 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: is blind. We have lost for a reason. We have crimes. 348 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: What what constitute a crime and how it's defined for 349 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: a reason in a perfect world, that's applicable to everyone equally. 350 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: In a perfect world, if you commit a crime, if 351 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: you violate a law, you're arrested, but you then face 352 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: a fair trial. You are presumed innocent. It doesn't matter 353 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: if there's a video of you doing it. You are 354 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: presumed innocent until it has proven in a court of law, 355 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: because I would keep in mind that a video that 356 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: you look at does not give you a three hundred 357 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: and sixty degree view. So you have to be convicted 358 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: by a jury of your peers or by a judge 359 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: if you choose to waive that. In a perfect world, 360 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: that process works the same for every individual, regardless of 361 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: their age, regardless of their color, regardless their gender or 362 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: gender identification. That's what justice is for me. This is 363 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: Federal judge jed Rakoff from New York. I have a 364 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: deep believer that just sense requires the judge to get 365 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: deeply into the facts, effects of the crime, the effects 366 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: of the criminal, effects of the victims, and to do 367 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: the very difficult and of an agonizing but careful job 368 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: of figuring out what sense makes sense when you factor 369 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: in those various opponents. The mandatory minimums, of course, prevent 370 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: you from doing that whatsoever. But even the sentencing guidelines 371 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: within the federal system are no longer mandatory, but they 372 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: might view are mistake because they emphasize certain factors, usually 373 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: in excess of other factors. So, for example, the sensing 374 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: guide lie as federal sentencing guidelines for drugs are vastly 375 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: dependent on the weight of the drugs that are sold, 376 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: and that means that if you have a large scale 377 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: narcotics conspiracy, even the lowest level person faces to huge 378 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: sense because the conspiracy as a whole distributed a lot 379 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: of drugs. This does not make sense to base. So 380 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: I would go back to the system that it persisted 381 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: in this nation for nearly two hundred years, which was 382 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: we leave it to the good sense of the judge, 383 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: and we encourage our judges to do a lot of 384 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: my work before they impose sense. Here's Kevin Ring, the 385 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: president of fam formally known as Families Against Mandatory Minimums. 386 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: So what we want to see is judges be allowed 387 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: to sentence again. We think judges need to have to 388 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: discretion to fashion punishments that fit the unique facts and 389 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: circumstances of each crime. Not every crime is the same, 390 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: not every defendant's the same. We don't want to see 391 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: people treated differently for reasons that aren't relevant, like grace 392 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: or gender or things like that. But we want people 393 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: who are more serious offenders to get longer punishments and 394 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: less serious offenders to get shorter punishments. And that sounds 395 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: so obvious and basic, but that's not the way the 396 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: system works. It's too much of a game now who 397 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: can plead first, who has more information to give up, 398 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: And so we have too many cases where low level 399 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: offenders are getting longer punishments because they don't have any information. 400 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: They can't give anybody up. We think the only way 401 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: to fix that is to get rid of mandatory sentences. 402 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: Let prosecutors bring what charges they want. They can make 403 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: their recommendations to the judge for what the sentence should 404 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: be based on the defendant's characteristics in the nature of 405 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: the crime. But we want judges to have control over 406 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: punishment again, so that it can be tailored to, you know, 407 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: what really happened, and not just some arbitrary standard that 408 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: was set by politicians who know nothing about this defendant 409 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: or this crime, but who wrote the mandatory minimum maybe 410 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: ten twenty years ago and couldn't have foreseen this particular instance. 411 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: This is my much better half, my wife, Natalie Holloway. 412 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: I might be a little biased here, but I like 413 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: her answer quite a bit. I think justice loves like fairness, 414 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: I think that's the best way off the cuff that 415 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: I can say that, And I think unfortunately that word 416 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: is not a simple definition, and so I think people 417 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: get caught up in what's right and what's wrong for 418 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: certain people. I believe in the bottom of my heart 419 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: that we also had the best for everybody, and everybody 420 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: is trying their best every day, and so fairness, fairness 421 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: is that what I best, what I think justice should be. 422 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: Here's defense attorney, actually merchant. I actually think the federal 423 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: government has a much better system than the state governments. 424 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: To the federal government, if you're arrested, you know, they've 425 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: got some evidence against you. It's a completely different system. 426 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: And in the state system, we arrest and then we 427 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: try and get the evidence, you know, like the confession 428 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: and things like that. I think that jurors need to 429 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: require more evidence to convict people. I think that they 430 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: need to actually require guilt beyond approved you know, beyond 431 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt to convict people. I think that's really 432 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: really important for us to have justice. I think that 433 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: obviously crime shouldn't happen, and guilty people should go to jail. 434 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: But I also think that there's oftentimes a reason and 435 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: like I said, truth always lies somewhere in the middle. 436 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: You know, maybe the person did something, but they didn't 437 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: do everything that they're accused of. I think that there's 438 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: a lot of power in the hands of prosecutors who 439 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: are oftentimes right out of law school, absolutely no perspective, 440 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: don't have kids, don't have a family, has never known 441 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: anybody accused of a criminal case. I think judges need 442 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: to have done both sides, I really do. I think 443 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: that that helps us get justice because if you've not 444 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: walked in my shoes and the prosecutors shoes, it's really 445 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: hard for you to judge us. And a lot of 446 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: times we see prosecutors on the bench, and defense lawyers 447 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: don't usually want to go on the bench, so that's 448 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: the problem. But it's hard because they have not walked 449 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: in our shats, and they haven't defended a person. They 450 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: haven't sat next to a person as a sob when 451 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: they're convicted, you know, and crying and saying I didn't 452 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: do this, and I'm going to spend the rest of 453 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: my life in jail hugging the mom who calls you 454 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: every day and says my son is innocent, and you 455 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: know he's in jail and feeling that. So I think 456 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: that if we can work towards a better system, that's justice. 457 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: But you know, I've a I don't want guilty people 458 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: to run around and be able to commit crimes. I mean, 459 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: I think that's awful, you know, But I also don't 460 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: want innocent people to be incarcerated. And I've always advocated 461 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: that we need to be smart on crime. I think 462 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: that programs work like these. We have accountability courts where 463 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: you know, drug court and dou I court and all 464 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: these different types of courts. I think that those are 465 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: really important because they're focusing on treatment. But the problem 466 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: I see with those is that it's just like anything, 467 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: we are kind of segregating classes of crime. We're saying, 468 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: if you are mentally ill and you commit a theft 469 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: type case, you can go to mental health court. But 470 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: if you smack your mom it's violent, you can't go. 471 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: You're mentally ill, you know you need the treatment. But 472 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: we're kind of segregating the types of classes and the 473 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: types of crimes, and I don't know that that necessarily 474 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: makes sense. I have made a career out of the 475 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. I have worked my entire our adult 476 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: life in some capacity or another in the business of justice. 477 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: And even after all these years, I don't know that 478 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: I have a great answer to our question. You see, 479 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: the concept of justice, at its very core is subjective. 480 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: It will look differently depending on just where you're standing. 481 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: To some people, justice means punishing someone who has wronged them. 482 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: To others, it may mean mercy or forgiveness. On a 483 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: day to day basis. The justice that I work towards 484 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: means negotiating in good faith. It means both sides striving 485 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: for a fair outcome. Fairness is another esoteric word with 486 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: a meaning that escapes easy definition. But what fairness looks 487 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: like also changes from case to case. I have three 488 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: or four case files sitting right here on my desk 489 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: right now, and justice means something different in each and 490 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: every one of those case is It's fair to say 491 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: that I'm passionate about justice, after all, it is my 492 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: life's work. But I don't know that I am, or 493 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: that I should be more passionate about justice than anyone else. 494 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: It is in all of our interests to have a 495 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: system that works smoothly and is administered well. But I 496 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: think a lot of times we forget about empathy, about humility, 497 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: and about human decency. It is so easy to get 498 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: wrapped up in the idea of punishment or I foreign 499 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: eye justice, And that's why we wanted to tell these 500 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: stories this season. Until you go through an injustice, until 501 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: you inexperience an abuse of the system, it is easy 502 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: to focus on retribution. We idealize it. We see what 503 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: the media shows us. We hear about horrific crimes, and 504 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: we call for maximum retaliation. But our system is not perfect. 505 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: People are overcharged, people are taken from their families, People 506 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: are removed from society every day under the guise of 507 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: public safety. But is there not a greater threat with 508 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: the system that forgets individual humanity? What is safe, after all, 509 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: about a system that views people solely by their charges 510 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: and not by their individual unique circumstances. Our justice system 511 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: in America is light years ahead of many others around 512 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: the world. Most of the time, we get it right. 513 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: Most of the time the police arrest the right person. 514 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: But we so often overlooked that there are victims of 515 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: the system itself. Victims of crimes can be victims of 516 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: the system. Wrongfully accused persons are victims of the system. 517 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: Families of these people are also victims of the system, 518 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: and so is the community in so many instances. Every day, 519 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: in every case I work, I strive to do better 520 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: to find a better justice for my clients. Fortunately, I 521 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: also see so many people across the country advocating for 522 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: a better way, for a better criminal justice system, for 523 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: more fairness and sentencing, for better rehabilitation measures, for quicker 524 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: closure for victims. I hope that we've inspired you, perhaps 525 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: just a little bit, to think about the broader criminal 526 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: justice system. I hope that when you hear about cases, 527 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: perhaps like the ones we've talked about this season, that 528 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: you take a little bit of time and maybe think 529 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: just a little bit longer, and, as judges tell jurors, 530 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: take your responsibilities as a citizen seriously and keep an 531 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: open mind because things may just not be what they appear. Well, 532 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: that's enough from me for now. Let us know what 533 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: you thought about this new season of Sworn and our 534 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: new format. Give us a call with any criminal justice 535 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: questions you may have. Leave us a voice at four 536 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: zero four four one zero zero four for one, and 537 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: of course, feel free to reach out on social media 538 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: like Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. If you reach out I'll 539 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: do my best to try to answer. We'll talk to 540 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: you soon here on Sworn. Sworn is a production of 541 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. Our lead producer is 542 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright 543 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and Alex Williams for I 544 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. Additional production by Trevor Young, 545 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright, and Halle Beadall original 546 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: music and sound designed by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our 547 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: theme song is Blood in the Water by Layup. Show 548 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: art and design is by Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, 549 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special 550 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at I Heart Radio from U 551 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: t a or In Rosenbound and Grace Royer, Bryan Nord 552 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: and Matthew Papa from the Nord Group, BA Media and 553 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: Marketing and Station sixteen. I'd also like to extend a 554 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: very personal and special thanks to all of our contributors 555 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: and guests who have helped to make all of these 556 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: episodes possible. You can find sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and 557 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: Instagram at sworn podcast and follow me your host, Philip 558 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 1: Halloway on Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q. Our 559 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: website is sworn podcast dot com and you can check 560 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. 561 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: If you have questions or comments, you can email us 562 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave us a 563 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: voicemail at four zero four for one zero zero four 564 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: four one. As always, thanks for listening. From your perspective, 565 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: How can our listeners be better jurors when they get summoned? 566 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: Besides finding people guilty, right, I think that the important 567 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: thing to understand is that we all want to find 568 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: jurors that are going to be fair, that are going 569 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: to be impartial to both sides. And those are sort 570 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: of the touchstone words that we use when we do 571 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: jury selection is are you gonna be fair? Are you 572 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: gonna be impartial? So the only thing that I would 573 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: encourage people to do is to keep an open mind 574 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 1: when you come into jury selection. I understand that we're 575 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: all different, we all have feelings that we're gonna bring 576 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: with us because of our own personal background when it 577 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: comes to the awesome responsibility of being a juror in 578 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: the case, just understanding that you're gonna have to check 579 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: some of that background baggage at the door and make 580 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: a decision based on the facts and evidence that is 581 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: presented in the courtroom. And even more important than that, 582 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: be open to the law that the judge is going 583 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: to give that juror as well. I think a lot 584 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: of people won't make the mistake of thinking, well, they're 585 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: only going to be looking at a given set of 586 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 1: facts and that's how the decision is going to be made, 587 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: and nothing could be further than In truth, one of 588 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: the most important parts of the jury trial system is 589 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,919 Speaker 1: that the judge is going to give those jury instructions 590 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: as to how each fact patterns to be judged. So 591 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: you need to keep an open mind not only as 592 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: to the facts, but as to the law as well.