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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that Rick and his partner are

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Speaker 2: informed of early on is that the night that the

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Speaker 2: murder occurred was actually the same as the summer solstice.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen ninety, a UCLA

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Speaker 1: student was found murdered in a tunnel in la Detective

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Speaker 1: Rick Jackson and his partner were assigned to the complicated case.

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Speaker 1: Who had a motive to stab ron Baker was the

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Speaker 1: pentagram pendant around his necka clue. Author Matthew McGough and

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Speaker 1: detective Rick Jackson tell the story in their book Black Tunnel,

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Speaker 1: White Magic, a murder a detective's obsession in nineties Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles on the Brink. So we're going to go back

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Speaker 1: and forth because you guys co wrote this book together.

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Speaker 1: Matt a very experienced true crime author who has been

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Speaker 1: on the show before with the Lazarus Files. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, we have a retired detective, Rick Jackson. He

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Speaker 1: works cold cases now and he actually worked on this case.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with you, Matt. Okay, So this is

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Speaker 1: if we're setting the scene. We're in nineteen ninety it's June. First,

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Speaker 1: tell me what city we're in and kind of give

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Speaker 1: me the lay of the land a little bit. What's

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Speaker 1: it like.

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Speaker 2: So this story, yes, as you said, it takes place

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Speaker 2: in June nineteen ninety is when it begins, and it's

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Speaker 2: in the city of Los Angeles and specifically in a

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Speaker 2: city park called Chatsworth Park. That's the very northwest reaches

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Speaker 2: of Los Angeles County, about as far north and west

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Speaker 2: as you can go in LA and while still being

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Speaker 2: within the city of LA. But it's pretty rustic. It's

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Speaker 2: actually quite a beautiful park. People do things like mountaineering

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Speaker 2: and hiking. It's like very rugged, and it's late on

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Speaker 2: the night of June twenty when there's fourteenagers who are

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Speaker 2: basically just out for a thrill. They are aware that

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Speaker 2: there's a railroad tunnel above Chatsworth Park and at that

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Speaker 2: time it was common for teenagers to hike up to

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Speaker 2: the railroad tunnel and just to get a thrill out

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Speaker 2: of it, go inside the tunnel, which was very dark,

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Speaker 2: and stand against the walls while the train went through,

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Speaker 2: press yourself against the wall and feel the train rushed by.

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Speaker 2: So it was it was close to midnight when these

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Speaker 2: teenagers went up there, two boys and two young women.

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Speaker 2: The boys had been there before, but the girls they

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Speaker 2: were with had not, so they hike up there and

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Speaker 2: on this day they get about halfway inside the tunnel

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Speaker 2: when they stumble upon a body and obviously flee running

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Speaker 2: out of the tunnel down the hill and go knock

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Speaker 2: on some doors until someone askers, and they called nine

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Speaker 2: to one one and the police respond and discover yes,

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Speaker 2: it is the body of a young man with curly hair,

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Speaker 2: kind of a slight physique and no id and he's

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Speaker 2: been stabbed several times and his throat has been slowed.

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Speaker 2: And because there's no idea on the body. It's what's

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Speaker 2: known as a John Doe. So the police document the rhyme, scene,

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Speaker 2: collect whatever evidence is there, and the body if the

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Speaker 2: victim is transported to the mark.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the difficulties of a John Doe case

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Speaker 1: in general, or a Jane Doe case. I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know you don't have this person identified in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety pre cell phones. You know at that time period.

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Speaker 1: What's the first thing that an LAPD detective would do

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Speaker 1: to try to establish the identity of a John Doe.

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Speaker 1: Is it looking through missing person reports?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Well, after the crime scene, that's the most important initial

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Speaker 4: thing is to control the crime scene. Of course, it

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Speaker 4: was the middle of the night in a kind of

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Speaker 4: a remote park, so there's not a lot of hikers

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Speaker 4: and other people up there at that time, so you

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Speaker 4: isolate the crime scene. It's pretty isolated already in a tunnel,

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Speaker 4: and you really document everything with photographs, your notes, diagrams,

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Speaker 4: print people up there to recover things that you think

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Speaker 4: might later be printed at the laboratory or bitter condition.

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Speaker 4: So that's the first thing, and you do and eventually

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Speaker 4: what you'll do not so much at the crime scene

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Speaker 4: but back at the station is make calls, check on

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Speaker 4: current missing persons. You'll run their fingerprints. You'll take fingerprints

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Speaker 4: once the corner's office gets there, and then run them

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Speaker 4: through whatever databases you can see if that person has

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Speaker 4: any kind of an arrest director or can be identified

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Speaker 4: through prints. There's numerous other sources that you can go through,

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Speaker 4: but those are the initial ones. But that takes place

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Speaker 4: once you lead the crime scene. The crime scene is

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Speaker 4: strictly about the crime scene, and you're not going to

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Speaker 4: worry about anythings as far as trying to identify him

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Speaker 4: at the location.

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Speaker 1: Okay, one more question for you before we go back

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Speaker 1: to the main part of the story with Matt So

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Speaker 1: Paul Hols talks about people who love to insert themselves

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Speaker 1: in criminal cases for various reasons. I'm curious about, kind

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Speaker 1: of looking back at your career, I'm thinking about these

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Speaker 1: four teenagers who discovered the body and then reported it.

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Speaker 1: Looking back at your career, how often have the people

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Speaker 1: who report a crime, especially a murder, are they actually

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Speaker 1: involved or is it actually pretty rare in you know,

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Speaker 1: your understanding.

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Speaker 4: It's rare in my experience, and I think it's rare

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Speaker 4: in general experiences.

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Speaker 3: Of most homicide detectives to rank.

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Speaker 4: You asked that question because eventually the name of one

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Speaker 4: person of those four that were at the crime scene

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Speaker 4: not a really common name. Another clue comes forward within

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Speaker 4: a day or so where a person that we want

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Speaker 4: to interview eventually because of our victim's background, once we

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Speaker 4: identifying him, had the same name, and I'm thinking, wait

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Speaker 4: a minute, it's not that common of a name for

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Speaker 4: him to show up.

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Speaker 3: And both of them.

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Speaker 4: That just raised some hairs on my back of my

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Speaker 4: neck because I thought there was something that definitely we

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Speaker 4: had to consider. And then it eventually went away. But

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Speaker 4: it was interesting because this case for a short second

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Speaker 4: almost described the situation.

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Speaker 1: Asked me about Yeah, I was curious about that. Okay, good,

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Speaker 1: So Matt, when we left you, you had described the body.

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Speaker 1: How many stab wounds did you say? Again, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: Oh many?

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Speaker 2: Rick may be able to recall the precise number, but

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Speaker 2: many injuries to the torso and then also a really

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Speaker 2: deep slashing knife wound across the neck that no question

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Speaker 2: would have been fatal on its out.

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Speaker 4: I think there were about fifteen stab wounds, pretty significant

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Speaker 4: stab wounds. There were the defensive cuts on the hands,

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Speaker 4: which became important because you know about the potential for

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Speaker 4: something under the nails because of the close contact situation.

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Speaker 4: But they were to the front, the back, the lower

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Speaker 4: extremities the hands, and then, like Matt said, pretty extreme slashing.

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Speaker 3: Of the neck.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to ask you again, Rick about this.

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Speaker 1: So I've always thought and I feel like conventional wisdom

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Speaker 1: says that when you have that many stab wounds, right,

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Speaker 1: it's quote unquote overkill. It must be a personal vendetta

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Speaker 1: somebody who knows and they are trying to send a

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Speaker 1: message and they're angry. And then when I talked to

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Speaker 1: Paul about cases that range from the eighteen hundreds to

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, he said, not all the time.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people are just scared and want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the person's dead. Sometimes a person's moving around so

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Speaker 1: much that you have to stab them that many times.

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Speaker 1: And so I thought that was interesting. I always thought

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Speaker 1: that went into profiling, you know, who is the person

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Speaker 1: who would have done this, But when when you have

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Speaker 1: somebody laying in a tunnel in a major city like LA,

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Speaker 1: that seems to complicate things eveningmore to know whether this

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Speaker 1: is somebody who knows him or somebody who was using

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Speaker 1: this as a crime of opportunity for some reason.

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Speaker 2: This also was not just any tunnel. Yes, on one level,

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Speaker 2: it's just a rather remote, isolated railroad tunnel that commuter

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Speaker 2: trains would pass through. But it's also important to add

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Speaker 2: that within half a mile, you know as the proflies

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Speaker 2: from this tunnel, was the Spawn Movie Ranch, which is

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Speaker 2: where Charles Manson and his followers launched their crime spree

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Speaker 2: from in nineteen sixty nine, which again was much more

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Speaker 2: recent and fresh in the mind of people in Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles in nineteen ninety than it is today, and the

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Speaker 2: specter of the Manson crimes was such that this tunnel,

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Speaker 2: sometime between nineteen sixty nine and nineteen ninety received an

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Speaker 2: unofficial nickname as the Manson Tunnel. And one of the

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Speaker 2: striking things that Rick and the other officers saw when

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Speaker 2: they went up to this tunnel is that there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of pentagram graffiti and other things that sort

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Speaker 2: of bolstered, at least in terms of rumors and reputation,

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Speaker 2: that this is a place with satanic overtones, something of a.

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Speaker 5: Magnet to people who might.

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Speaker 2: Be interested in the occult as a gathering place where

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Speaker 2: people would possibly do rituals. So a lot of those

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Speaker 2: ideas are kind of swirling around this place, and it

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Speaker 2: was probably part of the thrill for these teenagers to

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Speaker 2: go up there, because it is very dark, more than

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Speaker 2: a little bit scary.

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Speaker 1: It's like going to a haunted house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's literally pentagrams that are spray painted

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Speaker 2: on the walls of the tunnel as you enter, and

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Speaker 2: actually in big spray painted letters above the entrance to

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Speaker 2: the tunnel was spray painted the phrase holy Terror. So again,

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Speaker 2: it's like a creepy, creepy place known as the Manson Tunnel,

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Speaker 2: and it's sort of the last thing that these teenagers

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Speaker 2: are expecting to find when they go in. But you

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Speaker 2: can visualize how terrifying it must have been to them

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Speaker 2: to go in there and really only lit by I

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Speaker 2: think the boys maybe had a cigarette lighter or two,

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Speaker 2: but to come upon what they found. And then again,

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Speaker 2: kind of the occult annotation that surrounded the location of

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Speaker 2: the murder provided the seeds for a lot of the

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Speaker 2: media attention that would develop in time around the case.

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Speaker 4: I should also add that our victim, John Doe, wore

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Speaker 4: a pentagram necklace around his neck that was one of

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Speaker 4: the that was the only personal property he had on him.

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Speaker 1: That night, we were talking about them discovering the body

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Speaker 1: and Rickywit's had probably the fifteen stab wounds. What did

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Speaker 1: you think about the overkill theory versus you know, just like,

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Speaker 1: if you want him dead, you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: stab him many times. It doesn't have to be a

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Speaker 1: personal thing.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't, you know, eventually, when I found that out

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Speaker 4: a couple of days later, once I became involved, I

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Speaker 4: wasn't that convinced either way. You know, you're aware of

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Speaker 4: the potential personal connection and overkilled, but also it was

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Speaker 4: obviously there was at least some limited struggle and flailing

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Speaker 4: because his hands were getting knife wounds, his back, so things,

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Speaker 4: it was rolling around and other things going on during

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Speaker 4: the fight that led to his eventual demise. So you

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Speaker 4: just leave that open until you dive into it a

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Speaker 4: little bit further.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, Matt, what we know about this person is

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Speaker 1: it's a young man, curly hair, and he had been

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Speaker 1: stabbed many many times, and it sounds like had been

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Speaker 1: fighting back because he had defensive wounds. So what happens next?

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Speaker 1: What did the police do next?

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Speaker 2: So there's a pair of detectives from the Devonshire Police Division,

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Speaker 2: which is the area, the part of LA where the

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Speaker 2: crime occurred. And so there's two homicide detectives who take

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Speaker 2: charge of this John Doe case. So they are trying

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Speaker 2: to do things like you suggested, check missing persons reports,

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Speaker 2: call hospitals to find out, you know, if anyone had

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Speaker 2: been reported missing, or just to do the due diligence

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Speaker 2: to try to figure out who this is.

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Speaker 5: So there's one.

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Speaker 2: Police investigation that's focused entirely on identifying who this rictimus.

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Speaker 2: Separately from that, the same night as the teenagers are

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Speaker 2: hiking up to the tunnel, there's a family in Woodland Hills,

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Speaker 2: which is part of the San Fernando Valley here in

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles. It's a couple, Gail and Ka Baker, and

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Speaker 2: it's late that night, close to midnight. Mom has already

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Speaker 2: gone to sleep and Dad is sort of dozing in

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Speaker 2: front of the TV when the phone rings and he

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Speaker 2: wakes up and he picks up the phone and he

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Speaker 2: hears a strange voice, almost as if the person it

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Speaker 2: sounds to him, as if it's someone disguising their voice,

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Speaker 2: not using their true voice. And he hears this strange

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Speaker 2: voice on the phone say, mister Baker, we have your son.

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Speaker 2: If you don't pay us one hundred thousand dollars by tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: he will be killed. And mister Baker is really confused.

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Speaker 2: I mean he's just woken up and he gets this

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Speaker 2: phone call. And so his son is Ron, who's a

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Speaker 2: student at UCLA junior at UCLA, lives in an apartment

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Speaker 2: Van Eyes with two friends. And so mister Baker calls

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Speaker 2: Ron's apartment and one of the roommate's answers, yes, is

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Speaker 2: Ron home, And the roommate says no, he left earlier

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Speaker 2: that night to go to UCLA and that he hadn't

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Speaker 2: come home, and mister Baker says, well, when he comes home,

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Speaker 2: please have him call me right away. Mister Baker generally

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Speaker 2: assumes that it's some sort of a prank or something,

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Speaker 2: goes to sleep, doesn't call the police. The next morning,

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Speaker 2: mid morning at the Baker family home, the phone rings

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Speaker 2: again and it's the same strange voice who repeats the

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Speaker 2: exact same message, mister Baker, we have your son. If

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Speaker 2: you don't pay us hundred thousand dollars, he will be killed.

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Speaker 2: At this point, the Baker's call the apartment again, they're

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Speaker 2: informed by the roommates that Ron never came home last night,

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Speaker 2: and so at this point they are second guessing his

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Speaker 2: initial sense that this is some sort of harbless pranktice

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Speaker 2: may actually be something quite serious. And so the Bakers

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Speaker 2: call the LAPD and report these two ransom kidnapping calls.

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Speaker 1: Do they say, what to do? They say, we've got

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Speaker 1: your kid. We need one hundred thousand dollars from you.

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Speaker 1: Are there more instructions after that?

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Speaker 3: No, no, there's not.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when the Fakers call the police and

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Speaker 2: report these first two calls, officers respond to their home

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Speaker 2: and actually set up a wiretap on the phone in

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Speaker 2: case there are further calls and further instructions. But that

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Speaker 2: third call never comes. So it's it's just the call

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Speaker 2: the previous night and the call the following morning. And

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Speaker 2: then the Bakers contact the police and a kidnapping slash

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Speaker 2: missing person's report is generated about Ron, finding where Ron is,

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Speaker 2: and so there's a period of a couple of days

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Speaker 2: where these two separate investigations want to kidnapping missing persons

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Speaker 2: and second a John Doe homicide, And it takes about

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Speaker 2: forty eight hours before the dots are connected that there's

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Speaker 2: an unidentified body at the morgue who matches the description

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Speaker 2: of the missing person in this kidnapping ransom investigation.

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Speaker 5: And it's at that.

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Speaker 2: Point, because it's obviously a complex case and a serious case,

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Speaker 2: that the decision is made at the LAPD that this

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Speaker 2: is a case that should be investigated by a Robbery

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Speaker 2: Hobicide division, which is the unit the Brick was part of,

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Speaker 2: specifically the Major Crimes unit within Robbery Homicide, which handles

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Speaker 2: all the most complex and high profile murder cases. So

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Speaker 2: Rick Jackson and his partner Frank Garcia are assigned the case,

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Speaker 2: and they're the ones who are charged with going to

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Speaker 2: the Baker House and giving the parents the terrible news

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Speaker 2: is the victim of a murder.

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Speaker 1: Rick, did you need for the parents to come down

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Speaker 1: to positively identify Ron.

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Speaker 3: Eventually they did.

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Speaker 4: We didn't go out there until the murder happened on

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Speaker 4: a Thursday night. We got involved on Sunday evening, and

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Speaker 4: so by the time we got there, it was you know,

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Speaker 4: nine thirty, ten o'clock at night, and so eventually they

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Speaker 4: did go down without us to make the identification. But

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Speaker 4: based on photographs and things that have been obtained, and

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Speaker 4: the physical description and the necklace and things like that,

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Speaker 4: we knew it was wrong. And as a homicide detective,

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Speaker 4: that is easily the worst part of the job is

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Speaker 4: to having, is to be the one to have to

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Speaker 4: make personal notification family.

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Speaker 3: It's understandably it's awful to have to do that.

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Speaker 1: Matt. What did Rick and Frank and you know, anybody

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Speaker 1: else who's trying to get information? What did they learn

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Speaker 1: about Ronald Baker after he's been positively identified and they've

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Speaker 1: talked to his parents.

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Speaker 2: Just from speaking with the family, I think they knew

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Speaker 2: the basics about Ron's background, that he was a student

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Speaker 2: at UCLA. He was a really intelligent, sensitive guy, very

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Speaker 2: active in organizations like Amnesty International. He was a big environmentalist.

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Speaker 2: His family was very involved in their church Brick Was

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Speaker 2: it Methodist?

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Speaker 3: I believed, yeah. I think it was a Methodist.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the parents were very, very involved in their local church,

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Speaker 2: and Ron and his sister Patty were both raised within

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Speaker 2: the church. So he had a kind of religious background,

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Speaker 2: but he had a very curious, searching personality.

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Speaker 5: Ron did, so he had.

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Speaker 2: This background in Christianity and he was involved in things

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Speaker 2: like the Methodist youth group at UCLA. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time he was really interested in world religions, and

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Speaker 2: sometime before the murder, had become very interested in Wicca.

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Speaker 2: If you're not familiar with it, it's like a pagan religion

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Speaker 2: or philosophy, being in tune with nature, worshiping the sun

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Speaker 2: and the moon.

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Speaker 5: And among the holidays for people who believe in Wicca.

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Speaker 2: Are you know astronomical phenomenon, So the solstices and the equinox,

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Speaker 2: and you know days when the stars are aligned in

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Speaker 2: a certain way, those are causes for celebration.

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Speaker 5: And one of the.

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Speaker 2: Things that Rick and his partner are informed of early

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Speaker 2: on is that the night that the murder occurred was

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Speaker 2: actually the same as the summer solstice, which is the

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Speaker 2: first day of summer and the longest day of the

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Speaker 2: year and a Wicca holy day. And after informing Ron's

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Speaker 2: parents of his death, the next day, Rick and his

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00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,239
Speaker 2: partner go to interview Ron's roommates and they visit his

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Speaker 2: apartment and one of the roommates was not there because

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Speaker 2: he had left town a few days earlier for a

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Speaker 2: pre planned family reunion, but a second roommate, whose name

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Speaker 2: was Duncan Martinez was at the apartment and Rick and

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Speaker 2: his partner Frank met him and were told by Duncan

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Speaker 2: that Ron had gone to UCLA that night to celebrate

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Speaker 2: the Summer Solstice with some of his friends in a

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Speaker 2: club at UCLA called the Mystic Circle.

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Speaker 5: It was a.

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Speaker 2: Student group that was collection of students who were all

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Speaker 2: interested in different aspects of the occult and religion and philosophy,

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Speaker 2: not at all any sort of Satanic worship type of stuff,

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Speaker 2: more just broader questioning of religion and the world and

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Speaker 2: nature and things like that. It seemed right from the start,

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Speaker 2: between the location where the body was found being the

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Speaker 2: bats and Tunnel, the fact that Ron was really into

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Speaker 2: WICCA and was a member of this club at UCLA,

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Speaker 2: and the murder occurred on the night of the Summer

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Speaker 2: Solstice all pointed in a direction that that kind of

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Speaker 2: couldn't be ignored, even as it seemed a little bit

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Speaker 2: far fetched that there would be a murder related to,

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Speaker 2: you know, some some sort of satanic motive.

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Speaker 1: Rick, when the roommate Duncan tells you this, you and

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Speaker 1: Frank I assume go and try to confirm this story.

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Speaker 1: Did you find that this is what happened with Ronald

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Speaker 1: that night? Did he go to this meeting? I mean,

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Speaker 1: did this all add up to you all?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the roommates had mentioned that they had dropped them off.

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Speaker 4: At Ron didn't drive. He kind of notoriously bad history

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Speaker 4: of driving, and so he finally just stopped driving and

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Speaker 4: took busses everywhere in including the UCLA. So they said

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Speaker 4: they had drive him off about eight thirty to catch

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Speaker 4: a bus or late bus over to UCLA to be

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Speaker 4: with his Mystic Circle friends. It's basically what he had

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Speaker 4: told them. So eventually we did identify the Mystic Circle

378
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Speaker 4: group with the UCLA police. We did some research for

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Speaker 4: us and we had a flyer that we found in

380
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Speaker 4: Ron's room about the Mystic Circle and we had a

381
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Speaker 4: contact name on there to contact. So we did follow

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Speaker 4: up on that to see if there was some knowledge

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Speaker 4: of a group getting together on the night of the

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Speaker 4: Summer Solstice to do some kind of celebration, and that

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Speaker 4: was struck out there. We found nobody that had any

386
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Speaker 4: organized plan, No one had seen Ron, There was no

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Speaker 4: known contact with anybody from that group on that day,

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Speaker 4: so we were kind of back to square one.

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Speaker 1: So that could either mean that Duncan is full of

390
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Speaker 1: it and lying about all of this, or that Ronald's

391
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Speaker 1: plans totally changed after he was dropped off. Is that

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Speaker 1: what y'all were looking at.

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00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's the possibility.

394
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 4: You know, we need to check out the Duncan in

395
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Speaker 4: his roommate. And also there was the other roommate, Nathan Blaylock,

396
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: who was at the family reunion by the time we

397
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 4: got involved. His girlfriend had visited that night and she

398
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Speaker 4: confirmed all this that ron had told her he was

399
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Speaker 4: going over to u CLA independently of them. Okay, so

400
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 4: that's what we were stuck with, and that's where the

401
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 4: whole mystery part of it is involved. And I should

402
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 4: say Duncan Martinez was very cooperative, very seemingly distraught. There

403
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 4: were a couple of female friends over who were friends

404
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,719
Speaker 4: with the roommates and with ron that were there for

405
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 4: support and trying to figure out what they can do,

406
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 4: and we interviewed all of them that first meeting Mayo

407
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Speaker 4: at Duncan, which was the next day after the notification.

408
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Speaker 3: Of the family.

409
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Speaker 2: Like Rick said, there was a lot of due diligence

410
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 2: that they had to do to determine whether or not

411
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 2: this story of Ron being dropped off at the bus

412
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: stop was sure or not, but doing that due diligence

413
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: took time. Eventually, over the next days and weeks, Rank

414
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: and his partner staked out the bus route that Ron

415
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: supposedly took that night, interviewed the bus drivers who were

416
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 2: driving that route. No one had seen Ron, so there

417
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: was a lot of investigation that they had to do

418
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 2: into this story. But there was something that Duncan told

419
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 2: Rick and Frank that first interview that I think raised

420
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: their hackles a little bit, even though it didn't really

421
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: make sense. There was no indication at all that there

422
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: was any sort of animosity between Ron and Duncan and Nathan,

423
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: his two roommates. Do you want me to recount it?

424
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: Or Rick, do you want to explain what that thing

425
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Speaker 2: that Duncan said was that just struck you? And Frank

426
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 2: as odd.

427
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

428
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 4: That Monday we go over and eventually Frank and I

429
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 4: both interviewed the two females first that were there just

430
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 4: to get back on iron and things of that nature.

431
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 4: And Frank finished his interview with the one female first,

432
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 4: and so he began interviewing Duncan. And these were all

433
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 4: separate interviews they weren't done in the same room, we'd

434
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 4: go into a different room. So everybody there's some consistency,

435
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 4: and we don't want others being influenced by the other

436
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 4: things of that nature. And so after Frank's interview with

437
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 4: Duncan and we left that night and driving back downtown,

438
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 4: he told me, actually I didn't hear it, but Frank

439
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 4: told me that Duncan had said something that kind of

440
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: bothered him a little bit. And that was that On Saturday,

441
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 4: so two days after the murder, he and Nathan decided

442
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 4: to go out and try to be proactive. And that's

443
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 4: one detective told them, you know, reach out, go to

444
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 4: places he used to go, things like that, and they

445
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 4: said they went to Chatsworth Park, that he and Nathan

446
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 4: went to Chatsworth Park on Saturday morning to look for

447
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 4: Ron and they looked around the park, which was huge,

448
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 4: and then they went up to the tunnel and they said,

449
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 4: in retrospect, we don't know why we went up to tunnel.

450
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 4: We decided not to go in and then we left

451
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 4: and you know, that was the end of it. And

452
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 4: Frank would say, well, why would you go to this

453
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 4: park that Ron liked to go to if somebody had

454
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 4: kidnapped him. Why would you go to the park, you know,

455
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 4: because kidnappers aren't in the habit of taking people the

456
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 4: places they liked to go. Kidnappers take people other places

457
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 4: that worked best for a quote unquote kidnapping. And that

458
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 4: bothered Frank a little bit, And so I played the

459
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 4: devil's advocate, you know, said, well, you know, maybe they

460
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 4: just didn't know what else to do. They had to

461
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 4: do something. Nervous energy just we've got to do something

462
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 4: to find our friend, help our friends. So maybe they

463
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 4: just went there. But I thought it was a little

464
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 4: strange too. It was just very coincidental for him to

465
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 4: bring that up. So that in itself didn't mean a

466
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 4: whole whole lot, but it put a little place marker

467
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 4: in our mind about you know, we need to work

468
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 4: a little harder on on the two roommates as well,

469
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 4: because there were their own old bis for each other

470
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 4: and what they had done that night.

471
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: But did everybody know at this point that he had

472
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: been found It was positively identified. He was in the

473
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: tunnel already.

474
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: Let me try to clarify the timeline. Thursday night is

475
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: when the body is found as a John Doe and

476
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: also the family receiving these ransom calls. But the body

477
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: is not identified as Ron until Sunday.

478
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So unless.

479
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: You're involved in the murder, you should not know until

480
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: Sunday that Ron is dead.

481
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: Okay, now I get it.

482
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: The belief among all of his friends is that Ron

483
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: has been kidnapped. Now we know factually Ron is already

484
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: dead because his body was found on Thursday night, but

485
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: no one else knows that except for the police until Sunday,

486
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: when and the police go to Ron's family and inform him.

487
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: Up to that point, Ron was a missing person's case.

488
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 5: Wow.

489
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: And so the thing that struck Rick's partner Frank Garcia

490
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: as odd is, Okay, your roommate is supposedly kidnapped, and

491
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: you decide that you're going to go look for him,

492
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: and you're telling us that the place that you went

493
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: to go look for him is where his body was

494
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: actually found. And when they asked him why that's odd

495
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 2: that you would go look for him at Chestsworth Park.

496
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: Why would you go there? His answer was, well, we

497
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: know that Ron used to like to go to Chatsboroth

498
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: Park to meditate, and we thought that maybe he was

499
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: up there. But again, That doesn't make sense because if

500
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: you're a kidnapping victim, you don't get to choose where

501
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: you want to go.

502
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 5: You don't get to.

503
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: Say, let's take me somewhere where I like to go meditate.

504
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: You go wherever the kidnappers are going to take you.

505
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: And so it was very odd for these guys at

506
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: a point in time when no one knew that Ron

507
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 2: was dead and no one knew that his body had

508
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 2: been discovered in this remote place, that they went to

509
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 2: go looking for Rob in that place. Now, it doesn't

510
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 2: rise to a motive or any anything like that. It

511
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: was just it was just strange and kind of inexplicable

512
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: that they would do that. So I think that's a

513
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: seed of doubt that gets planted very early in their

514
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: first interaction with Duncan Martinez, and significantly, by everyone's account,

515
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: Duncan and Nathan are the last two people to see

516
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: Rob alive, and they're both telling the same story that

517
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 2: they dropped him off at the bus stop together and

518
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: they never saw him again that night, and he told

519
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: them the same story that he was going to use

520
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: Cla to celebrate the summer solstice with his mystic circle friends,

521
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: and so again Rick and Frank have to look at

522
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: Duncan and Nathan because they're the last people seen with him.

523
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: So they really want to try to eliminate.

524
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 5: Them to suspects because again.

525
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: There's no sense at all of no money problems, no

526
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: personal problems, there's no sense of any of that.

527
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 5: So they're just.

528
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: Trying to confirm these guys stories that Ron got on

529
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: the bus and went to UCLA. But they keep running

530
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: into problems when they try to confirm that because they

531
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: speak to bus drivers, they show photos of Ron, they

532
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: speak to bus passengers.

533
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 5: No one saw Ron get on the bus that night.

534
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: None of the drivers they interviewed, all of the drivers

535
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: who were driving buses that night, no one recognized Ron.

536
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: No one remember seeing him get on the bus get

537
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: off the bus. None of his friends in use CLA

538
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: had made plans with him. And so it's a combination

539
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: of these factors that I think caused Rick and Frank

540
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: to hone in on Duncan and Nathan.

541
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: What is the motive of Duncan or you know, Nathan,

542
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: or whoever is saying we went to the park, we

543
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 1: went to the tunnel before he's found. If they are

544
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: guilty of this, what is their motive of saying this

545
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: at all. Is this another pol holes people insert themselves

546
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: inexplicably into investigations kind of thing, or are they wanting

547
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: information from you?

548
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 4: I would say at this point we had no idea

549
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 4: about any kind of motive. I mean, what would if,

550
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 4: let's say, if the roommates were involved. There didn't seem

551
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: to be anything that jumped out at us.

552
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: And also good reasons to argue against these roommates being

553
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: involved because neither of them had a criminal record.

554
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 5: Although Nathan was out of town on the day.

555
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: Of that first interview when Rick and Frank interviewed Duncan,

556
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: he eventually came back to California and both him and

557
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: Duncan were very cooperative with the investigation, sat for multiple interviews,

558
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: were always cordial, never got defensive, lost their tempers. So again,

559
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: like the normal cues that you would expect if you

560
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: had something to hide or you wouldn't, you know, want

561
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: to engage with these detectives investigating a friend or a

562
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: roommate's murder, none of those red flags were there at all.

563
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: So again it was it was like something odd that

564
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: Duncan had said that didn't make sense, and there was

565
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: this there's the Manson tunnel stuff that's.

566
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 5: Sort of floating around.

567
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: There's these ransom calls that are floating around, and then

568
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: there's just the oddness of the idea that, Okay, you

569
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: thought your friend was kidnapped and you decided to get

570
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: a search party together and go look for him at

571
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: the place where his body was found because you knew

572
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: that he used to like to hang out there.

573
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, what happens between those interviews with Duncan and Nathan

574
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: and when this case cools or I don't know if

575
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: we say goals cold, is is anything else developed before

576
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: you kind of go I got other murders to deal with.

577
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: I will work this at the same time.

578
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 4: Well, that's always the situation with what he says, You're

579
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 4: always have multiple cases ongoing the same time, and that's

580
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 4: why it's nice to be able to get a case

581
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 4: solved fairly rapidly. This one didn't seem like it's going

582
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 4: to happen just based on the early action in the case,

583
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 4: because you know, you don't know when another one's going

584
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 4: to land on your desk for you to take. And

585
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: at Robery Homicide Division, we were kind of lucky. We

586
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 4: got involved cases a lot of times that weren't cut

587
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 4: and dry most of the time, and that's why we

588
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 4: got called in on those to take over those because

589
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: we had the detective manpower, if you will, to work

590
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 4: cases for a longer period of times than the divisional ones.

591
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 4: But I would say we kept trying to eliminate Duncan

592
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 4: and Nathan because of some of the early things that

593
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 4: we've just talked about, but everywhere, everywhere who we went

594
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 4: to see if we could eliminate him, check them off.

595
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 4: It kind of pointed toward them, to be very honest,

596
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 4: little things. But after a while, things start piling up

597
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 4: and you know, you're shaking your head, But at the

598
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 4: same time, you can't let go and just move on.

599
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 4: You need to keep going that way. And so eventually

600
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 4: we asked Duncan Martinez to take a polygraph test, which

601
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 4: he was more than willing to do. He said, that's

602
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 4: where things changed significantly.

603
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 3: To be very.

604
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: Honest, Well, this is a good time to talk about

605
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: the polygraph. You know, I think the audience I've written

606
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: about it and they've heard this at nauseum at this point.

607
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: But you know, we know the polygraph isn't admissible in court.

608
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: It can be any inaccurate? Is this a way that

609
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: is this an intimidation thing or a way to pressure suspect?

610
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: Is that how it was used on Duncan At this point.

611
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 4: My thinking of it, and I can speak for Frank

612
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 4: here because we were partners at the time and we

613
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 4: discussed this. First of all, do you want to see

614
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 4: what his reaction is going to be? Is he going

615
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 4: to get so no, I'm not interested, I don't trust

616
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 4: him or whatever, and he was like, no way, no,

617
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 4: I'll do it. So our feeling was this, if he

618
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 4: passed a polygraph test, I would feel fairly comfortable that

619
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 4: he wasn't involved. If he quote unquote failed it, it

620
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 4: depends on how bad he failed it whether I would

621
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 4: kind of group most likely he did it or are

622
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 4: we still having the room? Are there certain questions that

623
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 4: he seemed to pass by?

624
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: Okay?

625
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: On other ones that he seemed to separative on, like

626
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 4: knowledge of versus, were you involved?

627
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 3: Were you there? Things? All of that nature. So it

628
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: was it was an investigative tool. It's the best way

629
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 3: to describe it, okay, And that's the way we looked

630
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 3: at it when we when we offered it to him.

631
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: Are you continuing I have to assume everyone is continuing

632
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: to investigate the random stranger, you know scenario, which in

633
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: that area, in that tunnel, at that time of night,

634
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: you can't write off that somebody stumble. He's up there

635
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: for some reason. Right, he's got this pentagram around his

636
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: neck and we don't know why. But someone comes upon

637
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: him and there's an argument and then he ends up dead.

638
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: But that must almost feel impossible in La at that

639
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: point in nineteen ninety two.

640
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did eliminate people.

641
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 4: We had one person and it didn't show up in

642
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 4: the book because we turned in seven hundred and seventy

643
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 4: seven pages for our book, and we knew that was unacceptable,

644
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,959
Speaker 4: but we wanted professional editors to do it, you know. Yeah,

645
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 4: and we cut significantly, but that eventually we had a

646
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 4: guy that was interviewed in the park before had been

647
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 4: arrested for assaulting a park ranger with a knife, a

648
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 4: large knife, just months before, and so we could not

649
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: ignore that. And eventually it took us a while, but

650
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 4: because he was out of town, he lived, he roamed

651
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 4: the US, but we did eliminate it. We placed him

652
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 4: in a town back in Ohio at the date of

653
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 4: the murder, so we did look at other people, We

654
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 4: did look at occult stuff. It was running heavy with

655
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 4: the occult stuff early on big time, including Michael Conley,

656
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 4: the now famous crime fiction writer who at the time

657
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 4: had never written his first Bosh book yet, he had

658
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 4: written nothing, He had not published a book when he.

659
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: Wrote this article.

660
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: He also brought in the whole occult possibilities, which obviously

661
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 4: salt papers and it was not It hadn't been ruled

662
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 4: out yet, So we were dealing with that kind of thing,

663
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 4: taking a lot of phone calls from people that had

664
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 4: beliefs in naming people that hung out at the park as.

665
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 2: Well as Rick said Duncan's polygraph was a major turning

666
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: point in the investigation, and he was asked, you know

667
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: a series of questions, some of them, I guess what

668
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: you would call control questions, what is your name?

669
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 5: What year were you born?

670
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: And then pertinent questions were you present when Rob Baker

671
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: was killed?

672
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 5: Do you know who killed Rob Baker?

673
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: Questions that pertained exactly, you know, precisely the cases being investigated,

674
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: and Duncan failed miserably, particularly with regard to the pertinent questions,

675
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: and at the conclusion of the interview or the polygraph

676
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: rack and Frank confront Duncan with the results, and he

677
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 2: swears that he's telling the truth and can't explain how

678
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: or why he would have failed this polygraph, and in

679
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: the wake of that he lawyers up. I think it's

680
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: only about a week or so after that that Rake

681
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: and Frank are woken in the middle of the night

682
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: by a call from the police telling them that Duncan

683
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: has reported himself the victim of a kidnapping himself, that

684
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: he had kicked up the phone and called one of

685
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: his friends, and because it was late at night, this

686
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: woman heard the phone ringing went to answer it. But

687
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 2: again in nineteen ninety people have answering machines that if

688
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: you don't pick it up by the third, fourth ring

689
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: or whatever, the machine picks up and begins recording. So

690
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: there's actually a recording of what Duncan said on the

691
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: phone that night when he called his friend, which was Lydia,

692
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: I've been kidnapped. They're holding me in a warehouse in

693
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: North Hollywood. And then a series of like violent noises

694
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: as if someone had caught him making this call, and

695
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: like a punching sound or the phone dropping, and then

696
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: the line goes dead. So again from Rick and Frank's perspective,

697
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: this is on the heels of Duncan failing a polygraph.

698
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: This is already a case involving one series of kidnapping calls,

699
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: and now this guy is reporting himself the victim of

700
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 2: a kidnapping and basically disappears. No one has heard from him,

701
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: and no one close to him, including Nathan, his roommate,

702
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: can explain who may have been targeting him, who would

703
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 2: you want him kidnapped and so forth. So a little

704
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 2: bit of investigation, Rick and his partner determined that that

705
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: phone call was actually placed from a payphone in the

706
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: gray bus station at the Las Vegas Airport. So as

707
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: soon as they traced that number, they know for a

708
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: fact that Duncan is lying because the call was not

709
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: placed from a warehouse in North Hollywood. It was placed

710
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: from Nevada. And a few days after that they received

711
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 2: word that Duncan had shown up at his birth father's

712
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: home in Kentucky, and it had shown up there, you know,

713
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 2: having arrived on a bus from Los Angeles.

714
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 5: So not a kid nap victim.

715
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: So at that point it's clear this is not our

716
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: genuine kid napping it's a fake kid napping. Duncan has fled,

717
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: but we don't know where he is, we can't interview him,

718
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: and most importantly, we don't know why he fled. And

719
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: for people like Ron Baker's family, Duncan's disappearance was particularly

720
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: terrifying because they didn't know if the same person who

721
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: potentially targeted Rod was now targeting Duncan.

722
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 5: No one knew what the thing.

723
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 4: And they were close Duncan too. You had been a

724
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 4: family friend, had been at their house many times.

725
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: Duncan had delivered a eulogy at Ron's funeral and was

726
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: one of the pallbearers, so he was like.

727
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 5: A family friend.

728
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: And again, this is a case that goes through various stages,

729
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 2: and Duncan's quote unquote kidnapping kicked off a very protracted

730
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: period that lasted about eighteen months that sort of froze

731
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: the investigation because they couldn't reach Duncan. They had this

732
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: fouled polygraph result and this crazy story that he had

733
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: told that they knew was false.

734
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 5: But they couldn't find him.

735
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: And Nathan was consistent in terms of both his demeanor

736
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: and his willingness to cooperate and speak with Rick and Frank,

737
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: But at the same time hewing entirely to the original

738
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: story of we took Ron to the bus, and we

739
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: dropped him off to the bus, and we never saw

740
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: him since then.

741
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 5: And I don't know what to.

742
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 2: Tell you, guys, And I don't know why Duncan would

743
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: have felt polygraph or why he would have disappeared, But

744
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 2: I'm telling you the truth. And so for a considerable

745
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: amount of time, Rick and Frank aren't really able to

746
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: do very much to advance the investigation, apart from keeping

747
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 2: their eyes and ears open for dunkin servicing.

748
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 5: At some point we.

749
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 4: Were actively, you know, checking on him, doing FBI offline searches.

750
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: They might get a ticket or show up somewhere somewhere

751
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 4: in the United States.

752
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 3: But for a year and a half he was gone.

753
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 4: Until basically we get a call from the FBI in

754
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 4: Salt Lake City, Utah, in early ninety two, and they

755
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 4: have Duncan Martinez in custody using a.

756
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 3: False name that he got.

757
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 4: Eventually we find out he got it in Boston, Massachusetts.

758
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 4: He took on the identity of a child that had

759
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 4: died that would be about the same age from an

760
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 4: accidental ingestion of Dreno. He was one and a half

761
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 4: years old. Duncan became that child and actually cut records

762
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: out of the Hall of Records in Boston as if

763
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 4: the kid had not died, and he took on that name,

764
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: tried to get a passport, which they eventually determined was

765
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 4: a fraudulent application, a crime in itself, even if you

766
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 4: don't get the passport, just trying to get it. And

767
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 4: so when he eventually shows up in Utah and has

768
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 4: a traffic stop in ninety two, he gives that same name,

769
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 4: and of course there's now a warrant in the system

770
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 4: for him for the passport for our charges by the

771
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 4: FBI in Boston. And that's when eventually he decides with

772
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: his attorney that he wants to cooperate.

773
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: It's just like the starkest contrast between Duncan and Nathan.

774
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's unreal. He just keeps digging. Duncan keeps

775
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: digging himself in deeper and deeper. What is that? I mean,

776
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: what is that somebody who is panicking and this is

777
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 1: where it comes from. He can't get it together, versus Nathan,

778
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: who is just going to dig in no matter what happens,

779
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: and stick with it is Nathan watch more crime shows

780
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 1: than Duncan. I mean, what's going on?

781
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 4: Well, Nathan My partner at the time, Frank Garcia. The

782
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: first time we interviewed Nathan, we're driving back. He lived

783
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 4: out in Lake Elsiner with his girlfriend, and Frank says, man,

784
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 4: if that guy is involved, he's the coolest MF I've

785
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 4: ever dealt with in my life. Which is a top

786
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: chapter of one of our titles, and it's just something

787
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 4: that seared into my mind when Frank said that. So

788
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 4: Nathan's going nowhere, he's calm, collected, and he's ticking with

789
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 4: his story. Duncan is a different, different type of person,

790
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 4: and they're both very close. They were very close, as

791
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 4: was Duncan and Ron. It's like two best friends of

792
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 4: Duncan are the roommate and Nathan.

793
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: So we are in nineteen ninety two and Duncan has

794
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: had enough of all of the silliness that he's been

795
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: pulling off. He and his attorneys say, Okay, we're ready.

796
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: Is this a plea deal situation to flip on Nathan

797
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: or what is this?

798
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: It's very interesting and again, part of my experience working

799
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: on this book with Rick was learning how much work

800
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: has to be done on investigations. Like again, you can

801
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 2: suspect things and believe things to be true, and then

802
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: proving them at court is an entirely different matter.

803
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 5: So to be.

804
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: Clear, I don't think it's that he had some sort

805
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: of come to Jesus' remorse. I want to unburden myself

806
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: and do the right thing here. Duncan, he failed a polygraph,

807
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: he faked his own kidnapping, He fled, He stole the

808
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: identity of a deceased child in Massachusetts, long deceased child.

809
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: He tried to get a passport in that kid's name.

810
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: He did get a driver's license in that kid's name,

811
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: and he got.

812
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 5: Caught in Utah. That's why he talked.

813
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: It wasn't I'm tired of life on the run and

814
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: now I'm going to come forward. His hand was forced

815
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: to a degree when Duncan resurfaced. His attorney initially asked

816
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: for total immunity for Duncan to be able to tell

817
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: his story, and that obviously was a no go because

818
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 2: until the person gives you the information, you know, you

819
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: can't promise immunity. And then the person says, well, I

820
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 2: did the murder.

821
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 5: And that you can't do anything about that.

822
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: So the agreement that was negotiated between Duncan's attorney and

823
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 2: the DA's office was something called King for a Day

824
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: or Queen for a day, and it's basically a legal

825
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: arrangement by which someone can reveal information to the authorities

826
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: without the fear of that information that they're giving to

827
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: the police being used against that. So Duncan was permitted

828
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: to sit down with the detectives and it was a

829
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: recorded interview. There's audio of it. But the agreement was

830
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: made up front that as long as Duncan told the

831
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 2: truth and spoke only to the defectives about the events

832
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: in the case and did not go out then afterwards

833
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: and tell other people the same information that he was

834
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 2: telling the police, that that could not be used against.

835
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 5: Him in court.

836
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: And so under those terms, Duncan revealed the backstory and

837
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: the motive for the first time of what actually happened

838
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: on that night in June nineteen ninety when Rob was killed.

839
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: Okay, well, which one of you wants to tell me?

840
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: What Duncan says?

841
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: Duncan tells Rick and Frank a story that he and Nathan,

842
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: some months before the murder were home drinking beers and

843
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: watching TV when an episode of the TV show Dragnet,

844
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: the old LAPD show came on and Duncan explained that

845
00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 2: this was an episode involving a kidnapping for ransom, and

846
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: he and Nathan started talking about how ham handed the

847
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 2: criminals in the episode were in terms of the plan

848
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 2: that they tried to pull off, and that if you

849
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: actually wanted to get away with the kidnapping for ransom,

850
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 2: that you would have to do it in a different way,

851
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 2: and him, Duncan and Nathan began talking and going back

852
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 2: and forth about this idea of how do you commit

853
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: the perfect crime. He claims that they were he never

854
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: thought that it was serious. This is part of the

855
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: backdrop of what Duncan is explaining to Rick and Frank

856
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: is we did have these conversations, Nathan and I, but

857
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: I never thought that it was serious. I never thought

858
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 2: that it was real. Yes, we discussed Ron as a

859
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,399
Speaker 2: possible victim, but no, I never thought that it would

860
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 2: really happen, and basically walks through everything that happened that night,

861
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: but puts pretty much all the blame on Nathan in

862
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: terms of the actual stabbing and dunk and claims to

863
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: have been completely ignorant that this was actually a real

864
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: plan that was going to happen, and the blame that

865
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: he puts on Nathan includes admitting that Duncan himself made

866
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: the ransom calls to mister Baker that night, but he

867
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: insists that he only did it because Nathan ordered him

868
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,720
Speaker 2: to and he was afraid that if he didn't, that Nathan,

869
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: having killed Ron, would kill him next. So with this

870
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 2: information out on the table, and part of the way

871
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: that we structure the book is that it's a series

872
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: of betrayals. The first betrayal is of Ron, particularly by Duncan,

873
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: because they're very close friends and they've been friends and

874
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: Duncan knows this family. The second betrayal with this King

875
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 2: for a Day interview is Duncan betraying Nathan. And if

876
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: you remember I said, one of the important terms of

877
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: the King for a Day riemant is that you're not

878
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: supposed to talk to other people about what happened, and

879
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 2: if you do, that information can be used against you

880
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: in court because it's outside of you know what you

881
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: would say on a given day. And so there's twist

882
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: and turns in this case from the beginning to the

883
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: end and even beyond the end, because this is a

884
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: case that occurred in nineteen ninety and it went to

885
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: trial in nineteen ninety six. Rick and I were writing

886
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: this book, you know, decades later, and there was a

887
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 2: final twist in the case that came about in twenty

888
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: twenty that again none of us anticipated. But Duncan's betrayal

889
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: of Ron with the murder and his betrayal of his

890
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: partner in crime Nathan, is actually not the final betrayal

891
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: in the story. There's at least one and maybe more

892
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: than one beyond that.

893
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 3: I should say one thing real quickly.

894
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 4: Duncan is making himself is least involved as he can,

895
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 4: obviously looking for some benefit here. There was something he said,

896
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 4: and he probably never realized he said it about the

897
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 4: mitigation of not really thinking this was going to happen,

898
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 4: or not really having planned it too much. He says

899
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 4: to me at some point on record that I looked

900
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 4: over at Nathan and it was supposed to happen then,

901
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 4: and when it didn't happen, meaning at the tunnel, then

902
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 4: I thought it's not going to That totally is in

903
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 4: conflict with I didn't think it was going to happen.

904
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 4: That shows you how much planning they put into it.

905
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 4: When he knew exactly when it was going to happen

906
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 4: and where it was going to happen.

907
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: At the tunnel, God, Duncan. Duncan really has to know

908
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: when to shut the hell up, doesn't he? I mean,

909
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: it just keeps going.

910
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

911
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 4: No. He is the most intriguing character in this in

912
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 4: this book.

913
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: Are they both on trial? Is that what happens? I'm

914
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: assuming Nathan says he's not. None of us happened.

915
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 4: There's a series of Duncan cooperates. There's a series of

916
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 4: phone calls he makes, and one in person visit where

917
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 4: he's wearing a wire, and we get significant information and

918
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 4: lack of denials of Duncan's statements to Nathan, Nathan not

919
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 4: denying them, and a lot of things like, hey, we

920
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: might this might not be a safe place to talk

921
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 4: about this kind of stuff. A lot of consciousness, consciousness

922
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 4: of guilt things. And eventually we charged Nathan with the murder,

923
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 4: not Duncan, because none of the evidence we have against

924
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 4: him is admissible as of yet. And then there's a

925
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 4: few more things he does while he's in Utah. Brother

926
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,479
Speaker 4: he's pledging a fraternity, he's a student. So he's going

927
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 4: on with his life. Because not that we want that,

928
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 4: because we think he's still culpable and should be accept responsibility,

929
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 4: or we should charge him and hold him accountable. But

930
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 4: he's living the life of a college student frat boy

931
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 4: in Utah. And Nathan by now has been charged with

932
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:46,760
Speaker 4: Ron's murder and it's sitting in prison.

933
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: Now, tell me what does Nathan say. Does he deny

934
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: all of it or does he cop to any of it,

935
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: and does he illuminate Duncan's role at all in anything?

936
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 4: Eventually, what happens we confront him. He goes through this

937
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 4: whole original story with us, and then we say, well,

938
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 4: we have something that's somebody telling us that you're involved.

939
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: And we had preset our other tape recorder to play

940
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,439
Speaker 4: tapes when he got to that point, and we say, well,

941
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 4: I said, do you want to hear who's saying you're involved?

942
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 4: And we hit the button and here's the two voices,

943
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 4: and he just has head drops to the ground. Eventually,

944
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 4: he does admit it to some degree. He does not

945
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 4: implicate Duncan. At that point he says, I'll deal with it. Myself.

946
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be like somebody else that we

947
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 4: know here and roll over on people that we have

948
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 4: an agreement with. But eventually that changes. When he gets

949
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 4: closer to trial, he starts trying to switch the message,

950
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 4: but it's kind of too late. Then it's pretty obvious

951
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 4: what happened.

952
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: Do we end up getting both of these guys, I hope,

953
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: I mean, Rick, you had hinted, or one of you

954
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 1: had hinted that you got to keep your stupid mouth

955
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: shut for this king for a day agreement to be valid.

956
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 1: Does he on his mouth in Utah and then it

957
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: blows everything up? Or what happens?

958
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, he does. He gets arrested for a burglary.

959
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 4: He's caught inside of a sporting good store and blames

960
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 4: it on somebody else that says, I'm going to tell

961
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 4: on you all this la stuff if you don't go

962
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 4: to do this burglary for me. Well, we disproved that totally.

963
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 4: But he already has his story by the officers taking

964
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 4: him to Once they walk him out of the store,

965
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 4: he's already telling them, Hey, I need to talk to

966
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 4: a detective. There's something I need to tell them. Well

967
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 4: he does, and we are aware that he's going to

968
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 4: talk to him, and so we have to make sure

969
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 4: it's recorded. And he lays this whole thing out to

970
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 4: a detective and using the whole story as his reason

971
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 4: that he needs to get out of this burglary. He

972
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 4: tries by blaming this other person, so all that becomes

973
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 4: admissible evidence. And it was an early Christmas It was

974
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 4: an early Christmas present for me. It was in December

975
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 4: of I think probably about ninety three or four. And

976
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 4: eventually he's charged and Marcia Clark was the prosecutor at

977
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 4: the time.

978
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:06,720
Speaker 3: She and we were all friends.

979
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 4: And then of course she ends up leaving because OJ

980
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 4: happens a short time thereafter.

981
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 1: So he goes on trial. They both go on trial, right.

982
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,479
Speaker 4: Well's gone trial separately, okay, because some evidence against one

983
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 4: is not evidence against the other ones, like the phone

984
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 4: calls and things like that. They're both convicted of life

985
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 4: without parole.

986
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: So the way that the trials ended, with both Duncan

987
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 2: and Nathan both being convicted of first orgree murder, both

988
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 2: receiving the same sentenced life without parole, there was like

989
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 2: a certain symmetry to it where even though the physical

990
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: evidence suggests that it was Nathan who actually committed the stabbing.

991
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, Duncan is arguably the more

992
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 2: reprehensible of the two in terms of his behavior, because

993
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: his betrayal of Ron was so personal. Again, like we said,

994
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 2: he delivered a eulogy at Ron's funeral, knowing what had

995
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 2: really happened to Ron. He lied to the family members

996
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 2: in addition to the police, and so on and so forth,

997
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: So it seemed fitting that they would both receive the

998
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: same sentence, rather than one received more leniency than the other.

999
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,240
Speaker 2: So things were actually kind of inequilibrium at the time

1000
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 2: of twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen that Rick and I started

1001
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,720
Speaker 2: writing this book together. And what none of us anticipated

1002
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: is that in the middle of writing this book, Duncan

1003
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,439
Speaker 2: would receive kind of out of the blue, and it's

1004
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 2: something a story that we tell in more detail in

1005
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 2: the last couple chapters of the book. But he was

1006
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 2: granted a sentence commutation by Governor Gavin Newsom California, which

1007
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: had the effect of reducing his sentence from life without

1008
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 2: parole to twenty five to life, which is one step down.

1009
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 2: And because Duncan had already served more than twenty five

1010
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 2: years in prison, that made him immediately eligible for Pearl,

1011
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: and some months after this commutation was granted by the governor,

1012
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 2: Duncan received a parole hearing and was granted Pearl, and

1013
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 2: some months after this parole hearing was in fact released,

1014
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: and again throws this situation, which felt like it had

1015
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: a bit of a balance in terms of the treatment

1016
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: at the two suspects, again out of whack. Where Duncan

1017
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: is is free living without any sort of supervision anymore

1018
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: in terms of Pearl or probation or anything like that,

1019
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 2: while Nathan remains in prison, serving his original sentence of

1020
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 2: life without parole and not even eligible to receive a

1021
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 2: parole hearing unless governor knew some where to intervene again

1022
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 2: in his case. So that's where the story stands today.

1023
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 2: But if we know anything from this case over the

1024
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 2: last thirty some years, it may not be the last

1025
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: twist in this case.

1026
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: When we walk away from this story, what is the

1027
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: takeaway for what? We'll just Matt, what do you think?

1028
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: What's the takeaway for you from this story? What are

1029
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: we learning about anything besides how screwed up the justice

1030
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: system can be.

1031
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: Well, I think the book stands as something of a

1032
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 2: case study of a really fascinating homicide case at a

1033
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: time of tremendous tension and transition within the city of

1034
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: LA and maybe American culture, because some of these events

1035
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: like Robbie King and the La Riots and oj Simpson

1036
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: were yeah, for sure events in LA but also events

1037
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: with the national and maybe even international impact. So the

1038
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 2: backdrop and the characters of the quality of the case,

1039
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 2: and then part of the book two is a bit

1040
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: of a memoir of Rick, who's had a really incredible

1041
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 2: career and served as a consultant to a lot of

1042
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: really very influential writers, from Michael Connolly to James Alroy

1043
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 2: to Joseph Wombaugh, and so helping Rick get his story

1044
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: out there in book for him was also something that

1045
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 2: was really exciting for me and something that I'm really

1046
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 2: proud of now that the book is out.

1047
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: Well, Rick, let me end with you. Was this, you know,

1048
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: collaboration with Matt Was this sort of a cathartic experience

1049
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: for you or was it difficult to talk about some

1050
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: of these things? Maybe you had some oh I wish

1051
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: I had you know that that can be hard to admit.

1052
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a few parts in it that were

1053
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 4: a little bit tough. During the midst of this, my

1054
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 4: mentor and homicide was murdered and I handled his murder,

1055
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 4: you know, which is really.

1056
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 3: Kind of unusual. And there was some personal stuff.

1057
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 4: I went to a divorce and ended up, you know,

1058
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 4: being across country from my girls, who I always been

1059
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 4: really close to.

1060
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:57,959
Speaker 3: That was tough.

1061
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 4: But I love books. I've always loved books. I don't

1062
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 4: read as much as I should because I read so

1063
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 4: much other stuff, but I love books. And so having

1064
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 4: worked with some of the writers that Matt listed, you know,

1065
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 4: I was always around the publishing aspect of it, and

1066
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 4: I always wrote well. I just didn't know if I

1067
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 4: wrote well enough to write a book that would get published,

1068
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 4: especially by a major publisher like a Little Brown And

1069
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 4: so I wanted Matt, who would become friends independent of this,

1070
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 4: and I read the Lastarus files, and I knew he

1071
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 4: had the ability to put it together, I have to say,

1072
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 4: and that will agree. I wrote ninety percent of the

1073
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 4: first first drafts, or eighty to ninety percent of the

1074
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 4: first draft of the whole thing. He was still burned

1075
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 4: out from the craziness of writing that other book. And

1076
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 4: then he made them better for sure, and together. We worked,

1077
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 4: I mean we were on the phone because we lived

1078
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 4: in different parts of the state. Now we were on

1079
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 4: the phone daily for three four hours, especially during our

1080
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 4: editing processes and stuff.

1081
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 3: So it was tough. The writing part was the easiest for.

1082
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 2: Me, I think, in terms of trying to open a

1083
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: window onto how things work well and at other times

1084
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 2: don't work well. I mean, how homicide real life homicide

1085
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 2: investigation should go again in terms of events later on

1086
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: that that led to one of these guys getting out

1087
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 2: of prison. It's I think again, maybe not pleasant, but

1088
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: certainly important to try to shed a light on how

1089
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: the system works. It doesn't work, it could work better,

1090
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 2: and it shouldn't be that when you have someone who

1091
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 2: has such a record of dishonesty and manipulate the behavior

1092
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: that that's the only person who the governor hear froms

1093
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 2: and deciding whether or not to let that person out

1094
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 2: of prison. There should be some sort of balance and

1095
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 2: some sort of investigation that rather than no investigation when

1096
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 2: these decisions are being made, so that there's a degree

1097
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 2: of fairness. Because there's no doubt people who are in

1098
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: prison who deserve a parole hearing and may not get

1099
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: one and again Duncan received one and receive parole, And

1100
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 2: people can read our book and judge whether they think

1101
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 2: that was a well reasoned or a non reasoned decision.

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01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1103
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1104
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

1105
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1106
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1107
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1108
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: been an exact plea write production. Our senior producer is

1109
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

1110
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer.

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01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

1112
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the

1113
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1114
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked and

1115
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wicked Words pod