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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Her father, her usual running partner,

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Speaker 1: stayed at home that day because of a back injury.

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Speaker 1: He grew concerned after he couldn't reach his daughter shortly

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Speaker 1: after she set out on her run, the retired firefighter

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Speaker 1: calling the police and joining them on the search for Karina.

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Speaker 1: You are hearing our friend at ABC World News tonight.

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Speaker 1: That's Maria, she of a compo. Listen. He was the

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Speaker 1: one to find her body based down in a marsh

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Speaker 1: fifteen feet away from the trail, just four hours after

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Speaker 1: she left her home. It is wrong to kill an

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Speaker 1: innocent young woman, the Toronto's mother, issuing a fiery promise

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Speaker 1: to the killer. I guarantee you you will pay forever.

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Speaker 1: We also have DNA from her fingernails. Father as long

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Speaker 1: as we have. Despite frequents to the public for help

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Speaker 1: and a reward of almost three hundred thousand dollars, the

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Speaker 1: case went cold and I am right now a broken,

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Speaker 1: broken woman. But I will say this, I have one

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten percent confidence that this parison will be caught.

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Speaker 1: Vatronto's grieving parents in court Sunday at Louis's arrangement, her

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Speaker 1: distraught mother shouting to the suspect in the courtroom, the

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Speaker 1: mother of a beautiful young jogger, Carina Va Toronto, sobbing

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Speaker 1: in a court of law, gripping across as the court

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Speaker 1: hears how her beautiful daughter was thrown to the ground,

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Speaker 1: brutally raped and then strangled in a marsh as she

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Speaker 1: fought for her life, her fingernails breaking off, her teeth

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Speaker 1: knocked out of her mouth, her fists clutching the grass

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Speaker 1: as she tried to hold on to the spot where

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Speaker 1: she was attacked and get out of that swampy marshland

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Speaker 1: where she was brutally raped and murdered. And today has

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Speaker 1: it ended. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Let me just say that

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Speaker 1: Corina Va Toronto killer has been convicted. I spoke to

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Speaker 1: Corna's father in depth, phil Va, Toronto, and the grief

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Speaker 1: in his voice was overwhelming. Listen, Karna and myself, we

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Speaker 1: weren't just you know, father and daughter. She would like

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Speaker 1: my best friend and we did everything together, you know.

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Speaker 1: She said, Daddy, I'm going to go for a run.

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Speaker 1: And she asked me if I wanted to come, and

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Speaker 1: I said I can't. Today, Karine because my back is hurt.

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Speaker 1: And she was only gone twenty minutes when this feeling

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Speaker 1: came over me, like like something was something was wrong.

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Speaker 1: And my wife had just gotten home from the hospital,

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Speaker 1: and she said, what's the matter, And I said, Karene

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Speaker 1: is not answering her phone. And my wife didn't even

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Speaker 1: know she went out for a run. So I went

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Speaker 1: looking for her, and I walked the trail where we

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Speaker 1: usually run. I stopped about two hundred feet from where

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Speaker 1: she was because I didn't think we haven't went that far,

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Speaker 1: and I turned around and I came out. I called

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine in the p day and I

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Speaker 1: told him Karine is missing. She answering our phone. And

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Speaker 1: within fifteen minutes we had patrol. Cause within a half hour,

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Speaker 1: we had helicopters, we had bloodhounds, We had three hundred

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Speaker 1: people looking for her. They happened to unlock her phone.

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Speaker 1: She had a fitting, you know, an Apple product, which

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Speaker 1: was very difficult to unlock. But because Karina had asthma,

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Speaker 1: they were able to unlock the phone and we found

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Speaker 1: the location. And at ten thirty I went to where

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Speaker 1: the phone was found, where the police were. There were

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Speaker 1: about fifteen cops there at the time there was Bloodhounds.

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Speaker 1: There was a helicopter with heat sensor on it, and

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Speaker 1: I said, where's the phone and they pointed in a

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Speaker 1: direction he said about fifty feet in and you know,

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Speaker 1: they didn't touch the phone. They left it to CSI.

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Speaker 1: So I said, okay, and that's pitch black now, and

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Speaker 1: I started walking deeper into the trail, you know, just walking.

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Speaker 1: And then I told myself or somebody or something told

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Speaker 1: me no, So I turned around and I walked in

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Speaker 1: the other direction, and I just she called me, you know,

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Speaker 1: she came to me and called in. And I got

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Speaker 1: to about fifty feet from where the phone was on

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Speaker 1: the trail, and I just stopped. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: trail to the right and there's a trail to the left.

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Speaker 1: You can go in either way, and the weeds or

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Speaker 1: eight feet high, and I just stopped. I turned to

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Speaker 1: my right, I looked at the weeds and I just

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Speaker 1: walked in and I made her about thirty thirty five

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Speaker 1: feet and that's where she was. And I just walked

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Speaker 1: into the weeds and found her. You know, she she

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Speaker 1: needed her father, she needed me to find her. There's

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Speaker 1: no question to justice. Scott Morgan death investigator. What this

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Speaker 1: guy says in court, Chanel Lewis is so disturbing. The

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Speaker 1: family heard this. They have personally reviewed his videotape confessions.

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Speaker 1: He says that I was mad. I saw red. He

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Speaker 1: also denies a raping her and says, I guess he

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Speaker 1: says he killed her. I guess what. Somebody else raped her,

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Speaker 1: and so he's gonna say that coincidently, somebody just happened

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Speaker 1: to raper and then he came in and killed her.

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Speaker 1: Quote he says he grabbed a toronto as she ran

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Speaker 1: past him through a marshy swamp, that she clawed at

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Speaker 1: his face and he hit her five times before she

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Speaker 1: was knocked unconscious. Quote. She didn't yell, she was finished.

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Speaker 1: I finished her off. I strangled her. She fell into

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Speaker 1: the puddle and drowned, he says coldly on videotape. I

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Speaker 1: got up, I wiped off the blood, and she was calm.

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Speaker 1: She was in the pool of water. It was like

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Speaker 1: all the way over her face, he says, of the puddle.

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Speaker 1: And after telling police how he quote finished her off,

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Speaker 1: he seemed to think he could pay his way out

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Speaker 1: of a murder one charge. He says, quote, I can

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Speaker 1: straighten out my stuff. I mean, you're the d A. Right.

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Speaker 1: Where do we go from here? Is this our restitution

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Speaker 1: program or something? What? Quote? I finished her off. Then

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Speaker 1: he goes on Joe Scott to insist he did not

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Speaker 1: molest her, even though her jogging shorts had been pulled down.

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Speaker 1: I did quote. I didn't do any of the stuff

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Speaker 1: they said, sex assault, stuff like that, he says. He

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Speaker 1: then walked home up the bike path quote shaken up.

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Speaker 1: He was shaken up, Joe Scott hoping to get Napkins

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Speaker 1: to quote the bleeding from the scratches on his face.

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Speaker 1: And then when he was asked why he attacked the

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Speaker 1: jogger who has his name, it's Karina Betrono, he says,

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Speaker 1: because the guy moved into my house and the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: He said, there's been a lot of anger. Okay, Josice

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, you have been a witness in countless cases.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how many felonies I've tried or investigated.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts on this. Let me

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Speaker 1: throw you one other thing that he said as well.

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Speaker 1: He's also quoted as saying, Nancy, I beat her to

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Speaker 1: let my emotions out. I never really meant to hurt her.

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Speaker 1: It just happened. So let me get this straight. He

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Speaker 1: places himself there physically at the scene of the crime,

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Speaker 1: where he apparently laid in Wait, Nancy, this is a

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Speaker 1: very narrow jogging paths in a wooded area immediately adjacent

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Speaker 1: to a beachside area where people take their families. This

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Speaker 1: younger lived there. He's young. The lady lived there with

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Speaker 1: her father, and he waited in the bushes until she

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Speaker 1: jogged by, and then as he got past, as she

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Speaker 1: got past his position, he attacks her while her back

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Speaker 1: is to him. Then he drags her out into this

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Speaker 1: marshy area. Now he says, I beat her. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you what else they're saying. She was apparently struck

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Speaker 1: in the back of the head with some type of

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Speaker 1: heavy object. They're thinking possibly a rock. Now I don't

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Speaker 1: know this definitively, but she may very well have had

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Speaker 1: a depressed skull fracture. That happens many times with these

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Speaker 1: types of strikes. And then she was strangled. And he's

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Speaker 1: saying that he didn't he didn't molest her at all. Nancy.

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Speaker 1: You know she's wearing jogging pants. Now, as everybody can

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Speaker 1: attest to jogging pants don't just spontaneously fall off. Her

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Speaker 1: pants had been pulled down. This is in a very

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Speaker 1: what we referred to as an asymmetrical position. She's facedown, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine in this dirty, filthy marsh water, face down.

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Speaker 1: She's been brutalized, beaten strangled, She's bruised and scratched. All

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Speaker 1: she wanted to do is go out for a job.

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Speaker 1: Her pants are down, and he, in this asymmetrical position

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Speaker 1: where he's dominant over her, finally finally just strangles out

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Speaker 1: the last bit of life that she had left in her.

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Speaker 1: He completely abused this woman. And to say that this

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Speaker 1: wasn't sexually motivated, give me a break. It's an attack

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Speaker 1: of power. He raped her and he choked her. But

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Speaker 1: this we do know. He has left his DNA behind.

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Speaker 1: The father of phil Vetranto led a fight to allow

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Speaker 1: infamilial DNA joint to me right now, is a renowned

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Speaker 1: DNA expert. It is George Skiro, director of the Skills

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Speaker 1: Biological Laboratory, with over thirty years of experience as a

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Speaker 1: forensic scientist and a crime scene investigator. Before I go

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Speaker 1: much further the facts, I want you to enlighten us

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Speaker 1: all for those that may not be familiar with DNA

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Speaker 1: deoxyribonucleic acid. Every single person has their own unique DNA.

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Speaker 1: It cannot be replicated. It's like a biological or genetic fingerprint.

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Speaker 1: But what is familial DNA? George? Because they tried, and

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Speaker 1: they tried, and they tried, they took the DNA off

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Speaker 1: her body, George, and compared it to CODIS, which was

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Speaker 1: the nationwide data bank of DNA. No matches, so it

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Speaker 1: looked as if it wasn't anybody that had a record.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't find the purp. It was excruciating, George. What

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Speaker 1: is familial DNA? Well, thank you for having me, Nancy

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Speaker 1: familiar with DNA searching is where a database is searched,

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Speaker 1: a database of DNA profiles. It searched to determine if

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Speaker 1: there are any close matches that could have maybe come

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Speaker 1: from a potential family member of a of a perpetrator

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Speaker 1: of a crime, to see if there if a link

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Speaker 1: could be made that way. Then if there's a potential

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Speaker 1: link made that way, and if it's a fairly strong

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Speaker 1: familiar DNA match, what they'll then do is get a

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Speaker 1: DNA sample directly from that individual to compare directly to

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Speaker 1: yet crime stories with Nancy Grace. Channel Lewis, the twenty

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Speaker 1: one year old man charged in the brutal rate and

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Speaker 1: strangulation of Karena Vatranto. How did he Channel Lewis get caught?

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Speaker 1: How is he identified? Because while I got DNA from

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Speaker 1: Arena's body, it didn't match up to anyone. Philip Vatronto

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Speaker 1: had been waging a campaign to convince New York state

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Speaker 1: authorities to allow investigators to use familial DNA techniques to

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Speaker 1: identify a suspect. It wasn't used in the state up

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Speaker 1: to that point, but just before their decision to allow

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Speaker 1: it came, Lewis was arrested. He was eventually caught by

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Speaker 1: good old fashioned police work, which eventually identified him as

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Speaker 1: a person of interest because he had been in the park.

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Speaker 1: Once he was identified, detectives were able to get a

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Speaker 1: DNA sample. They matched it up to some DNA found

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Speaker 1: on Coarina's body, and once in custom and once in custody,

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Speaker 1: they got that confession on tape with me right now,

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Speaker 1: Phil Vatrono, who I consider to be a colleague and

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Speaker 1: a friend. Karina's father, Phil, you know it hurts me

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Speaker 1: sometimes and I know that some police make horrible mistakes

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Speaker 1: and do horrible things, but police, prosecutors, judges are some

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Speaker 1: of the most honorable people I've ever met. And yes,

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Speaker 1: I know mistakes happened, but nobody ever seems to notice

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Speaker 1: when they do something so incredibly right as you just said.

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Speaker 1: They went through hundreds and hundreds of potential suspects, and

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Speaker 1: even though you were one of their brothers, they looked

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Speaker 1: at you. Of course they did. You saw her last,

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Speaker 1: you found her body or her father. You're one of

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Speaker 1: the closest people in the world to her. Of course

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Speaker 1: they looked at you, but you knew that going into it.

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Speaker 1: You knew they look at you. And instead of dodging it,

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Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, here I am, take my DNA, do

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Speaker 1: whatever you have to until you find the person that

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Speaker 1: took my daughter's life. They took my daughter's funeral, my

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Speaker 1: daughter's funeral who detectives approached me and said, we would

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Speaker 1: like to take a swab from you. And we took

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Speaker 1: me into a back room and I said, you can

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Speaker 1: take whatever you need. If you need to take my

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Speaker 1: right arm, you take my right arm, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: whatever you ask for. And they swabbed me at my

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Speaker 1: daughter's funeral. Phil, I never knew that. I did not

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Speaker 1: know that. I'm just you know, taking in what you

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Speaker 1: have just said to me, but joining me right now,

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Speaker 1: Prosecutor Kenya Johnson. That's the reality of prosecution. You can't

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Speaker 1: spare any body's feelings and feel the Toronto's right. Everybody

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Speaker 1: as a suspect until you get a conviction. Every single

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Speaker 1: person is a suspect. You can't leave any stone unturned.

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Speaker 1: You have to ask questions of everyone because you never

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Speaker 1: know when you can get that nugget that will lead

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Speaker 1: to another road. As far as the investigation, and when

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Speaker 1: it comes to juries, juries are just to ask questionable

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Speaker 1: as well. Them with their own baggage, their history, their

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Speaker 1: education and sometimes yours just will not put two and

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Speaker 1: two together, or even in the face of obvious evidence,

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Speaker 1: they still have a problem to convict. And so a

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Speaker 1: jury selection process is more so an elimination process where

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Speaker 1: we ask questions to try to get out people that

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Speaker 1: have certain biases, but certain things slipped by, and you

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Speaker 1: just never know what people are holding back or what

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Speaker 1: their preconceived notions are and whether they could even send

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Speaker 1: someone to jail. So even after you've created the case

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Speaker 1: and you've done this great investigation and you present it,

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Speaker 1: you still have that final frontier of getting before and

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Speaker 1: convincing every single person. And that's a challenge. And phil question,

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Speaker 1: did you get to sit in the trial the whole

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Speaker 1: time or did they sequester you, make you right outside

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Speaker 1: because you would be a witness. Yes, I had to

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Speaker 1: sit through. I couldn't go into the courtroom until I testified,

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Speaker 1: so I couldn't be at jury selection. I couldn't be

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Speaker 1: at the first two days of witness testimony. Only after

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Speaker 1: I testified. I was allowed, you know, to sit in court.

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Speaker 1: When you were sitting in court listening to testimony come

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Speaker 1: from the witness stand, what sticks out in your mind?

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Speaker 1: How professional and how thorough everyone was. The police officers,

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Speaker 1: the detectives, the the m E, the DNA experts, the

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Speaker 1: phone searches. Everything was done so perfectly and so professionally

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Speaker 1: and without bias. There would be no question as to

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Speaker 1: any kind of corruptness or mistakes that were made, because

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Speaker 1: they were none. His miranda rights were written, were given

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Speaker 1: to him multiple times, multiple times on video. He was

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Speaker 1: told when they went to swab him why he was

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Speaker 1: being swabbed. He was being swabbed in connection with the

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Speaker 1: murder case of Karnavatrano, and will you be willing to

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Speaker 1: give DNA swab And there's a consent form that he

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Speaker 1: was read, and then he read himself, and then he signed,

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Speaker 1: and then he gave his own DNA swab. He swabbed

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Speaker 1: his own cheek, took the Q tip, put it into

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Speaker 1: the vial seal the bag, and that's how everything was done.

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Speaker 1: There were no mistakes made here. George Skiro, I know

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Speaker 1: you're the director at the Skills Biological Laboratory, but could

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Speaker 1: you please explain to me the significance of the DNA

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Speaker 1: in this case? Well, in this case, according to what

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Speaker 1: I've read the there was DNA from Lewis found on

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Speaker 1: her cell phone and on her back. And what's been reported,

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Speaker 1: it's been reported as a match, and a match usually

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Speaker 1: indicates a single source. And then what will happen is

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Speaker 1: whenever there's an inclusion or a match, we have to

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Speaker 1: give a statistical weight to it. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: the statistical weight will probably be in the trillions, perhaps

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Speaker 1: quadrillions if it's a complete match, meaning that with the

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Speaker 1: exception of a possible identical twin that that that Chanel

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Speaker 1: Lewis is the source of that DNA sample on the

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Speaker 1: back end the cell phone with me right now, Phil

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Speaker 1: the Toronto who I consider to be a colleague and

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Speaker 1: a friend Karina's father. Phil, question the moment, not the moment,

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Speaker 1: but very shortly after Karina went jogging this one day

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Speaker 1: out of a million that you did not go with her,

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Speaker 1: you immediately started having premonitions for botting something was wrong,

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Speaker 1: to the point where you acted on them. As I

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Speaker 1: believe your wife started calling her. You started calling her,

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Speaker 1: you went out, started looking for her. Since she has

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Speaker 1: gone to heaven, do you feel that she has tried

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Speaker 1: to reach you? Absolutely, she is everywhere. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if there's different levels of angels, but my daughter is

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Speaker 1: extremely powerful. She shows herself to us in many ways,

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Speaker 1: many ways. Yes, she is around us, and we communicate

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Speaker 1: with her the way we normally do, and she communicates

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Speaker 1: back in angelic form one way or another, in signs,

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Speaker 1: in sounds, in many ways. Now, Phil, I know this

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Speaker 1: is very personal, but it would mean a lot to

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Speaker 1: me and it would mean a lot to our listeners

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Speaker 1: who have been thinking of you and Kathy and praying

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Speaker 1: for you since the very beginning. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about any communication that you've had with Karina that is

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Speaker 1: too personal, that is too personal. There are certain instances,

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Speaker 1: I mean, she has shown herself many ways in different

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Speaker 1: forms and purple light that show up at the memorial

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Speaker 1: purple orbs. But as far as direct communication, as far

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Speaker 1: as whatever they call it when someone comes to you

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Speaker 1: you know through the spirit life, those are personal and

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Speaker 1: that is just between me and my family. But she

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Speaker 1: has come. Well, I will tell you this, and I

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Speaker 1: get it. I can tell you this, And all the

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Speaker 1: years since my fiance Keith was murdered, all the years

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Speaker 1: he was murdered in nineteen seventy nine, I know for

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Speaker 1: a fact that he has communicated with me twice, once

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Speaker 1: immediately after his murder, in the days following it, and

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Speaker 1: then it took almost twenty five years after that. And

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Speaker 1: because of that communication, it changed my life. Phil I

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Speaker 1: married and was just under the line to have children,

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Speaker 1: And if I had not listened to Keith, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what my life would be like now. So of

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Speaker 1: course I know you. I haven't had the pleasure to

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Speaker 1: know Kathy yet, but I know what you're telling me

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Speaker 1: is true. And you listen to her. Oh, I know

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Speaker 1: you will. All I can say is that I to

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Speaker 1: say I'm happy isn't correct. I guess I'm relieved with

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Speaker 1: the verdict and hopeful, hopeful for you and Cathy starting

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Speaker 1: another part of your life. And I guess I'm grateful.

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Speaker 1: How would you describe how you feel? Pretty much the

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Speaker 1: same we are. We relieved that we no longer have

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Speaker 1: to go this, go through this agony of sitting in

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Speaker 1: a courtroom on a daily basis, looking at him and

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Speaker 1: you know, hearing you know, other people with their opinions

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Speaker 1: and which nothing more than opinions, and I'm based on

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Speaker 1: any kind of fact. And we don't even know where

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Speaker 1: we're going to proceed from here, because for two and

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Speaker 1: a half years we've just been waiting for what happened Monday,

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Speaker 1: for a guilty version. And that that I am grateful for.

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Speaker 1: There aren't too many things in life that I can

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Speaker 1: say bring me joy and happiness other than my grandson.

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Speaker 1: But we're not joyful, but we are grateful for that conviction,

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Speaker 1: and it does give us the opportunity to move forward.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what direction, but we're moving forward, you know, Phil,

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Speaker 1: I just want you to know how much you have

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Speaker 1: given an example to me, and you have renewed my

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Speaker 1: inspiration to keep fighting for crime victims and your role

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Speaker 1: model for so many people and parents out there that

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Speaker 1: have lost their child or people that have lost their

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Speaker 1: loved one to violent crime. You have no idea how

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Speaker 1: you and your wife and your demeanor and your behavior

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Speaker 1: from day one have inspired so many And if you

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Speaker 1: don't know already, let me be the first to tell

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Speaker 1: you you have changed the world. Our prayers go on

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Speaker 1: Nancy to hear that, and that would be what Karina

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Speaker 1: would want. That's what you would want for us to

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Speaker 1: be civil and helpful and to help people. Would that

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Speaker 1: would be what Karina would want. I know that, and

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Speaker 1: I thank you and you have been an inspiration to me.

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Speaker 1: And I just want to ask you if is anything

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Speaker 1: you would like to ask Cathy at this point in time. Wow, Cathete,

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Speaker 1: I had never thought that I would get to speak

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Speaker 1: to you today, and you know so many secrets in

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Speaker 1: your heart and you've been through so much. What message

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Speaker 1: do you want to give our listeners today with me?

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Speaker 1: Is Karina Vitronto's mom, Cathy, what would you tell our listeners? Um? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think you and Phil covered so many things that

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Speaker 1: were necessary and that we would like to convey. So

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Speaker 1: basically my main message right now is to I want

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Speaker 1: that jury to get my message of gratitude beyond you

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Speaker 1: know that, beyond belief, beyond mere words can express that

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Speaker 1: on this day is the message that I really want conveyed.

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Speaker 1: There are so many things, so many things that I

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Speaker 1: want the world to know about Karna and about the

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Speaker 1: things that I've learned through this trial that are not

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Speaker 1: pleasant and that are not right. But that's a different form. Well,

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Speaker 1: I know one thing Karina is smiling down on you

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Speaker 1: and feel with so much, you know when you you know.

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Speaker 1: The h that I could even speak right now is

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Speaker 1: because of the the majesty of God and the breasting

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Speaker 1: that he has imposed. I believe to Karina to be

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Speaker 1: able to reach us as she has, because I am

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Speaker 1: really sure, just as you spoke about your with your fiance,

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Speaker 1: I have been reassured that Karina is here in a

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Speaker 1: different way, and that there is God and that she

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Speaker 1: is with God, and that someday we will all be

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Speaker 1: together again. And that's the only thing that has been

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Speaker 1: able to help me to start functioning again because really,

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Speaker 1: I was unfunctionable for a very long time. Well, the

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00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: two of you really personify one of my faithful one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite verses out of Timothy and it is

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Speaker 1: fight the good, Fight strong to the end. Crime stories

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00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: with Nancy, Grace, shock and sadnesses. People in one community

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00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: learned their neighbor did not die of old age, reportedly

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Speaker 1: killed by his own daughters. TBC Action Who's report of

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Speaker 1: Michael plusko with why some of them are always suspicious

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Speaker 1: even when deputies were not. The sheriff told us would

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00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: happen inside this home was the perfect murder, and he

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00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: told us that those sisters would have gotten away with

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Speaker 1: killing their father if they just would have stayed quiet.

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Speaker 1: Four years ago, on March sixth of twenty fifteen, his neighbor,

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Speaker 1: Anthony Thomas Selly's death was not from natural causes. A

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Speaker 1: buzzley guy. I heard people say that he just went

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Speaker 1: downhill really fast. Guys, you could have fooled me saying

401
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: something like that with him, Yeah, downhill really fast, you know,

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Speaker 1: with a little helping hand from his own daughters. You

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00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 1: just heard from our friend at w FTSTV Tampa anchor

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00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: Jamison Uller talking about the death of an eighty five

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00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: year old dad, Anthony Thomas Selly. But he's dead and

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00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: now the sisters are suspected in his murder. All Star

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Speaker 1: panel doctor Michelle Dupretty, medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation

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Speaker 1: Field Guide, Renown's like Hoe Analyst's talk to Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 1: out of Hollywood. Karen Smith, renowned forensics expert. Ashy Wilcott,

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Speaker 1: judge lawyer anchor. You can find her at ashe Wilcott

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Speaker 1: dot com. Joining me right now. Syndicated talk show host

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Speaker 1: Dave mac Dave Matt, I don't get it if I

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Speaker 1: could have one day back with my dad, one day

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Speaker 1: that I give everything I've got except the children. Of course,

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00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: David is in jeopardy on that one. Here's a catch

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00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: and the reason they initially ruled this to have been

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Speaker 1: from natural causes. Anthony Thomas Ellie, at eighty five, was

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Speaker 1: suffering from cancer, He had dementia, he had some heart problems.

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Speaker 1: Even a minute, Wait a minute, who says he had dementia?

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Speaker 1: His two murderous daughters, Linda Robertson Mary Beth Thomas Elli, Well,

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00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: it was actually his regular physician is the one that

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Speaker 1: declared him dead from natural causes. That's why they almost

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00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: got away with murder Nancy because the setup was there. Now,

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Speaker 1: both of these women, Mary fast Thomas Elli who's sixty three,

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Speaker 1: and Linda Roberts is sixty one, are just evil with

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Speaker 1: the capital E. Bottom line. They described it as ethan

427
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: asia and the only reason they got caught is because

428
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: they just had to talk about it. And by the way,

429
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: both girls are both women ended up dating the same

430
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: man that they met at a bar. That's who they

431
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: told the story too. Oh my stars, you know, Ashley Willcott,

432
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: you just know it. Here they are Mary Beth Thomas

433
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: Elly sixty three, Linda Roberts sixty one, blabbing trying to

434
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: snare the same guy. I mean, why bother? I mean,

435
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: at that point, do you need another man in your life?

436
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: Another one? They had to brag like that would make

437
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: them more attractive to the guy they murdered somebody. Well, again,

438
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: I think that that's attributing rational thought to two very

439
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: irrational criminals. And so the fact of the matter is,

440
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: if they're going to kill somebody in the first place,

441
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me at all. But then they choose

442
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: to brag about it. So why do you say, Dave Mack.

443
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: They almost got away with the quote perfect crime, and

444
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: it ain't so perfect to me. Well, that's exactly how

445
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: the sheriff described this. Now here's what they actually did. Nancy,

446
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: eighty five year old dad in bad health. They both

447
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: claimed that he would not go to an extend one

448
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: of the not hospice care, but you know the kind

449
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: of extended living that senior citizens go to sometimes before

450
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: they passed. They said he did not want to do that.

451
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: They were tired of taking care of him what it

452
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: amounted to. So what they did, they actually had a

453
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: plan that they were going to actually at first just

454
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: drug him with an alcoholic drink with some sleeping pills.

455
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: But there was too much alcohol and it broke down

456
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: the sleeping pills and they didn't work. So and that

457
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: didn't happen. They tried, they tried to suffocate him with

458
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: a pillow on the couch, but they weren't strong enough.

459
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: He was too strong. Now that's how bad off this

460
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: guy was. He was strong enough to fight off two

461
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: younger women who were trying to suffocate him with a pillow.

462
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: He was able to fight back from that. When that

463
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: didn't work, one of the sisters held his arms at

464
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: his side, and they crammed a dirty rag down the

465
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: man's throat and pinched his nose until he died. Oh

466
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: my stars, Doctor Bethany Marshall, help me out before I

467
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: get into the rag down the throat and they pinched nose.

468
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: In my mind I thought that they had drugged him.

469
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: But that is a violent death. But doctor Bethany, I

470
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: want to go back to you. Why are these two

471
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: trying to impress a man at a bar that they

472
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: both want to leap with by telling him they both

473
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: were they fighting for credit that they kill their father.

474
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: I mean, well, how is that supposed to impress a guy?

475
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: He probably thinks, gee, I guess I'm next. I'm sure

476
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: it would take a drink they offered me, you know, Nancy,

477
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: I think that I have a scenario I've seen in

478
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: my practice quite a bit in my psychology practice. Adults

479
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: coming in who are preoccupied with his parents, and they

480
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: are preoccupied with their parents' money, so they're like, hey,

481
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 1: my my dad has three hundred thousand dollars. But doctor Bethanie,

482
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: there's a big difference. In my mind, they're both evil,

483
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: But to give somebody sleeping pills and alcohol, and then

484
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: having the wherewithal to hold your own father's arms down

485
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: while the other sisters stuff so rag down his throat

486
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: and pinches his nose. I mean, that's a whole other

487
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: level of depravity. Yes, it is. But they probably had

488
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: toxic hatred for him. They were angry at him for

489
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: wanting to go to a retirement facility. They felt that

490
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: he was going to spend all the family resources, and

491
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 1: they wanted to get rid of him at any cost

492
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: so that they could have the money for themselves. He

493
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: is such a big motivator of hanifide. It's that's a

494
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: motivation we always have to look at, and I think

495
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,919
Speaker 1: that's why they tainously, Nancy. They put a pillow over

496
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: his face, and when that didn't work, they put the

497
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: rag down his throat and pinched his nostrils for what

498
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. Well, what does that

499
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: say to you about their motivation, the fact that they

500
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: would try three different ways to kill that is not

501
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: just for the money, but they hated their dad. Well,

502
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: of course, the man they're trying to impress at the

503
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: bar went immediately to police, and not that quickly. He

504
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: was quote romantically involved with him. I think he had

505
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: sex with both of them, but he goes to police

506
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: and reported after what they said. And I don't understand

507
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: what they hope to gain from him by telling him this.

508
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: This is why I said they were preoccupied with hatred

509
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: towards the dad. They even after they killed him, they

510
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: still couldn't stop thinking about this. The profile of the

511
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: adult child who stalks the parent for money. I'm telling you, Nancy,

512
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: I have seen it in my practice. It does happen.

513
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: Kids can become preoccupied with trying to get things from

514
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: the parent, and when they want to get things from

515
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: the parent, that's all they can think about. So I

516
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: would imagine that the story was still going on. Was

517
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: there a property they were trying to sell. I wouldn't

518
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: be surprised if they were talking about this, because they

519
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: still hope to gain something financially from the father. Nancy

520
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off Goodbye friend,