WEBVTT - Kamau 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.480 Do I start. Welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to start. 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:08.160 This is comedian W Kamal Bell. We met years ago 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:10.240 at the beginning of both of our careers. I think 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.280 I bombed a couple of volunteer events. Yeah, you bombed 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.480 a little bit and I got to see bombs. I 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.520 love this guy. Look at him bombing like a pro. Yeah, 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.360 it's great and uh and yeah, it's been wild that 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.160 our careers have gone in these crazy trajectories and now 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.120 we reunited to discuss Fred Rogers today come Out has 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.680 a CNN show called United Shades of America where he 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.519 travels around the US talking to people about what's wrong 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.599 with this country. And I wanted to talk with him 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.519 because he did something really interesting with that show. He 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:41.839 sat down with some of the most hateful people I 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:49.920 can think of, and he had a conversation. I'm Carvel 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.640 Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about Fred 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.760 Rogers from I Heeart Media and Fatherly in partnership with 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:11.000 Transmitter Media Early and I think it was the first season. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.000 You talked with some white nationalists, uh, and some pretty 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.720 heavy movers in that. I imagine you've got a lot 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:23.240 of pushback from people about giving the people platform given, 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.039 how did you make sense? Why did you decide to 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:26.760 do that, and what did you learn in that experience. 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:32.200 I believe, and you know, platforming Richard Spencer or any 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.520 of these people would be tonight in the United Shades, 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.000 I'm going to take the night off and let Richard 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:41.560 Spencer run the show. To me, that's platforming. That's normalizing. 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.240 Sitting out and talking to Richard Spencer about what he 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.080 believes in all of his white nationalists beliefs in the 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.880 middle of an episode that is highlighting the importance of 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:55.080 immigration and refugees in this country. To me, it's not platforming. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.120 I also think when Trump was first selected, the fear 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.320 of platforming and normalizing is I think we're really buzzwords 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.400 at the left held onto in lieu of doing the 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.200 actual work, Like you know, no, we I feel like 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:09.120 looking at it in the face is actually helpful to 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.440 me to go how serious is this? Not looking at 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.080 it in the face? To me, is is sort of 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:14.960 a way to sort of like just pretend like you 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.519 can still go to yoga class and and uh in 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.880 the farmer's market. Because I think the reason why we 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.120 have Trumpet office right now is because a lot of 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.200 people on the left were wanting to look at him, 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.960 you know, they weren't willing to really like is this possible. No, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.040 it's not possible because I've been doing a chance in 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.280 the morning. So for me, it's the fact is it's 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.560 like if we've if we if we've learned anything in 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.320 this current air of America that we got to look 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.079 at the stuff in the face, you know what I mean. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.480 So for me, you know, it's the it's sunlight's the 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:46.359 best disinfectant. Like I believe that. Did you find Richard Spencer, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.760 uh intimidating who's probably a foot shorter than you. Yeah, 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.280 he's not as short as most whites spread. I think 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.280 that's why he was the leader. He was like, uh, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.760 did you play in the NBA. After you go in there, 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.760 you do realize everybody's like five four and like, and 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:05.560 they would sort of trying to like walk up to me, 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:06.880 a couple of them trying to get me to a 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:08.640 flinch or just sort of like and it was like, 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.120 also six four, man, I'm not, I'm not. I just 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.240 sort of like it became fun to me to sort 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.600 of like look comfortable, you know. And so by the 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.000 time I sat down and talked to him. It was 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.320 really fine. We are here to talk about Mr Rogers, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:20.720 And that's good because I was like, man, this is 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.200 really not what I prepared. Know. I tend to approach 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.080 things from like a um And Uh, the reason I'm 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.200 asking about your experiences with Richard Spencer's because I've been 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:35.720 really stuck on this this sort of ethical position that 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.200 Fred Rogers took, which is that it's it's you I like, 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.160 I like you just the way you are, Uh, that 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.800 kind of thing. And I wonder how that squares with 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:51.960 people who were like Richard Spencer. Could Fred Rogers say 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:53.760 I like you just the way you are? And I 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:55.640 know you can't speak for him, So I'm going to 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.520 ask you to speak for you. Did you when you 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.280 look at him, see anything that you felt compared fashion 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.000 forward when you talked with Richard Spencer or some of 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:06.920 these other white nationalists. So, Uh, the thing is when 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:08.480 I think about that, I like you just where you are. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.320 When you sit down with people individually, a lot of 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.640 times all that stuff, a lot of the bluster goes away. 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.680 Like when I talked to the clan and uh, in 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.359 was it in Kentucky? It became very clear to me 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.640 after a while, like, Oh, you guys have come from 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:26.440 a community where there's no jobs, there's no opportunity, your 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.279 educational system isn't good, and you're just mad, and you 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.200 have bought a bill of goods from somebody that is 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.440 black people's fault. Like that's the problem is that that 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.760 you went from, Like I want more opportunity and more 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.720 jobs of my community too, it's got to be somebody's fault. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:43.359 And then somebody sold you can we talk to you 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.160 about black people? They handed you the it's black people 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.520 of fault plans. And so for me, when I take 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:50.080 away the when I look at that part, I go, 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.479 that's the part I could have empathy with. You know, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.520 these people are not the billionaire people who are sort 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.279 of running this country and using tools of white supremacy 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.360 to keep things going. These are people who are got 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:09.760 sold a bill of goods based on being vulnerable. A 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.200 few years ago, I was in Michigan reporting a story. 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.440 I was at the gym and I looked up and 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.320 saw Kamal's face on the TV screen. This was several 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.880 months after the election, and the alt right was feeling 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.440 definitely emboldened, so much so in fact, that they were 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:29.599 white supremacists marching in downtown Berkeley, of all places, which 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.799 happened to be where Kamal lived. He had just spoken 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.839 at a counter protest and on Fox News they were 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.720 playing his speech and calling him a radical black separatist, 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:44.720 and suddenly Kamal had become a target of white supremacists. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.599 That was when I got streets got hot for me 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:51.840 for a second, exactly the streets got hot for you, 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:53.919 And all of a sudden, I was I had a 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:55.880 lot of feelings seen that, actually, dude, Like on the 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:57.920 one hand, I was like, this is absurd, but then 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.560 in the other hand, it kind of struck a little 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:01.400 bit of fear my heart because I thought, God, if 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.640 you can call comal, or if you can get like 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.760 like the Confederate flag waivers income ou as a black separty, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:13.280 what who among us is safe? Like this is the 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:17.040 most integrated dude I've ever met. And uh and um. 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:18.719 I was just really amazed by that, and I thought 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.120 a lot about it, and I guess I want to 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.640 ask you what that experience was like for you to 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.400 be targeted in that way, and how you made sense 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.440 of that, like how you navigated that was that scary 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.280 at all, Like it only became because you had kids 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.440 at that point. Yeah, it became scary because over the 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.240 next week or so, its like I became the like 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:41.760 the the deep intern dark web, intern hinterland Internet all 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:43.920 right target, Like I was just the person on the 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.880 summer Jam screen. So like like so all these memes 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.159 start going up, and you know, we were in downtown Berkeley, 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.400 so people see me walking into my house, you know, 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:54.360 and also we're right down where all the alt right 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.560 rallies are. It was scary. It was like the first 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.600 time I felt like that my thing deal on TV 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.080 is can affect my family, like in a way that 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.040 it feels like we have to sort of like think 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.440 about our security protocols and think about like where we 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.080 send our kids to school as opposed to like oh yeah, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.600 you know, and all these sorts of things that sort 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.880 of that that we weren't thinking in that way before. 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.360 Doesn't that kind of make you hate people like they're 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.560 putting your family in jeopardy and putting you in the 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.440 situation where you feel like, I mean, doesn't that like 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.560 trigger rage and hating you know, it triggers, like I'd say, 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.040 it triggers like Papa Bear, protect your family. You know. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.480 It triggers like don't do anything stupid. The people who 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.200 are doing this I already wasn't a fan of anyway 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.200 like this has. Yeah, I sort of knew this, you know. 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:41.760 And also the history of black people in this country 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:43.880 is that, you know, you can't know the history of 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.640 our people without knowing that, like, you know, we get 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.560 taken out regularly. Now. I don't think I'm not trying 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.040 to be some sort of martyr or something, but it's 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.320 just like, if I choose to do this work and 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.080 I choose to be public about it, It's not that 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.520 I'm like ready to die or any of that nonsense. 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.160 You know, I got too children to die right now. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.240 But I do feel like this is a part of 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:04.960 the gig. I mean, my wife talked about that, like, 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.120 and I think about like people like Dick Gregory as 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.040 far as like he actually gave up comedy to be 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:10.720 an activist at one point in his life. And so 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:12.720 this is the work I want to do, and it 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.040 feels right now in this country, feels like it's necessary. 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.160 If anything, I feel bad, but I'm not doing more 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:18.720 of it. I think more about that, like what more 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.120 can I do or how can I do this better 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.560 than I think about the people who who have enmity 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.560 towards me. And also the thing is most of them 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.880 don't even They're just blah blah blah, like they're gonna 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:37.040 move on to the next person. We'll be right back. 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.240 What's your first earliest memory of seeing Fred Rogers or 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.120 seeing a show? Did you watch it growing up? I 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:08.920 watched you growing up, so I don't have like, h 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:10.960 I don't have the time. My mom sat me down. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:15.480 We didn't have cable, so maybe cable. Uh, And so 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.880 you know, I'm talking about like Sesame Street, Mr Rogers, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.880 the Electric Company, three to one contact for my old 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:26.760 heads out there lane right now. Yeah, So for me, 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.320 like Mr. Rogers is just one of the things that 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.560 I watched on TV. And then for me, the weird 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.160 part is like even when I got older, every now 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.160 again you flip past and go, let me just watch 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.480 a few minutes. Why what is what? What did that 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.840 bring to you? I think there's something the greatest of 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.199 kids programming, there's something so pure about it that it's 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.120 doing anything wants to do that adults watch it too, Like, 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.120 I think that's true when it's not pure when it's 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.480 really about like you just want my kid to buy 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.760 this thing, don't you. Then it's like it becomes too 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.760 self conscious of like the things that's trying to do. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.760 But Mr Rogers is super pure. It's just like this 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.640 is one person statement being supported by the team of 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.839 people around him and somebody who works in TV. That's 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.199 hard to do. Yeah. I was going to ask you 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.160 about that, like as it has your understanding of what 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.320 he was able to do change now that you are 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:15.720 a maker of television. Yes, great, thank you, goodnight everyone. Yeah. No, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.800 I mean it's like it's hard to get everybody on 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.000 you if you have everybody on the same page that 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.559 they're all in service of of Mr Rogers. I still 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:25.360 call Mr Rogers, you say Fred because you know him 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.760 like that. But I've been called that only by black 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.679 people on the show. I just want to point that out. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:31.719 White people have been like Fred, Red Fred. And then 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:33.600 I had viewing and she was like, you know him 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:38.719 like that exactly, Fred Rogers. Excuse me? Are you a 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:44.120 son that I didn't know? Uh? Mr Rogers? Is that 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.640 it's clear that like everybody was on the same page, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.599 or at least I knew that this was this is 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.000 the voice I'm following. That's not that's not case nine 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:55.560 percent the TV that's ever been made. That's not the 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.200 case that they're not listening to one. For even some 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:58.679 of the TV we like, it was like it was 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.959 a nightmare back there, but when it happens, you can 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.880 feel it. So for me, there's not much difference between Mr. 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.920 Rogers and Atlanta. With Donald Glover, you could feel it 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.040 like there's not much on that show that Donald Glover 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.079 hasn't been like, check, it's funny, it's the Atlanta is 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.960 a really interesting comparison, one that I had never made um, 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.280 but that rings true for me, partially for what you 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.319 said about the creative process, but also because both of 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.800 those shows make a lot of use of space and silence, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.000 and they do this thing where they train the listeners 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.400 to sit still long enough to start to feel and 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.600 experience more subtle levels of what's going on. And they've 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:35.400 built a lot of trust with the audience. So even 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.520 if you're like, where's this going, he was like, I'm 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.600 gonna sit here and see. And I think that's the 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.640 important thing too, is that this that you when you 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:44.320 build that trust with the audience, and that comes from 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.120 the audience knowing I trust that, uh Mr Rogers or 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.960 Mr Glover, I trust that these people have a plan 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.120 because so many times you watch a lot of TV 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:55.439 and it's like there's no plan. They just had to 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.360 get this done. They just had to turn this in 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.960 and there was a way which Mr Rogers did. There 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.040 something that feels like we're here for one purpose. We're 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.600 all pulling together and we're not trying to do something 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.360 that is cooler, hip or trendy. We want to create 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.679 an experience and have you joined us today and come 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.240 back the next time. Also, I think talk, I mean 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.200 I think against this from Mr Rogers. I think the 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.000 reason why I respond to Mr Rogers because the way 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.080 my mom treated me talking to your kids like their people, 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.360 you know, like talking not talking to them like their kids. Like. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.560 Certainly Mr Rodgers as slows down because he's trying to 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.200 makes you understand, but you feel like he's a friend 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.760 of yours. And I think and for me as a parent, 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.000 when you feel like you're like I'm the I'm your friend. 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:36.880 I mean, I'm the friend who pays the rent so 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.600 every now and again to make some decisions. But really, 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.160 I would rather us be friends. I would rather us 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.679 talk through these problems instead of like, instead of me 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.920 saying because I said, so, yeah, you know, it's interesting 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:49.760 you bring up your mom and I met your mom 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.280 and read her book, and um, she's a person with 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:54.880 a very strong black identity, which is part of the 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.040 way you were raised. And um, and I wonder when 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.600 I talk to people about Fred Rogers. A lot of times, Uh, 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.760 they'll they'll bring up in some way, depending on their race, 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.960 a question about how I feel about him as a 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.320 black man. In other words, the question I was actually 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.920 talking with, of all people, Well, I'm not gonna name drop, 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.240 but I was talking with someone I don't know. I 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.600 was talking with someone in Cape God randomly that i'd 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.480 run into, who is a known historian, And I said, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.679 I'm doing this thing in Fred Rogers. And he immediately 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.640 said he was a white guy. He immediately said, how 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.880 do black people feel about Fred Rogers? Just like sir. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:31.680 That's why I'm not gonna name drop, because I don't 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:33.200 want to. I don't want to kill his book sales 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.280 because this book is very important. But um, but that's 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.880 the first thing he said, And uh, whatever, I stumbled 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.160 through the answer also kind of annoyed and then excuse myself. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:44.160 But it did make me think about this inherent belief 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.920 that somehow what Fred Rogers did was like doesn't work 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.720 for blackness, or there is misaligned and like you know 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.680 that's been I mean, in the famous Eddie Murphy sketch, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.680 that's sort of the premise of that joke is that 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:56.920 if you did Fred Rogers in the black neighborhood, it 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:58.400 might look like this. But I want to hear you 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.439 talk a little bit about how people in this so funny. 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.880 At the same time I was taking into Mr Rogers, 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.960 I was also watching Eddie Murphy on The Stay Night. 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.800 I never saw Eddie Murphy's Mr Robinsons Neighborhood as being 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.199 critical of Mr Rogers. His portrayal of Mr Rogers felt 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.800 like Mr Rogers, but an Eddie Murphy version of it. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:16.640 And also it never occurred to me that it was 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.000 really the black version of Mr Rogers. It was just 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.880 the the the this version of blackness of Mr Rosson, 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.800 which is the thing white people do. That's the black version. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.320 None of that's like the hood criminal black version Rogers. Sorry, 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:34.400 therefer criminal and black making news. So satists come out bell. Yeah, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:39.160 so again, Tucker Carlson again. So for me, it was 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.280 just the idea that, like this is how this is 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.640 Eddie Murphy. It was a love letter Mr Rogers. And 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:47.920 when I watched Mr Rogers, I didn't watch him as 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.720 a white guy. I watched him as Mr Rogers. And 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.080 I think that's that's the thing. I think when a 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.320 white person asked that question, they understand Black people and 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.480 people of color can tell the difference between a white 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.520 guy and Mr Rogers. If that show had been made 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.680 for white kids, we would have been able to sniff 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.880 it through. Doesn't feel like it's talking to me, but 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.160 the fact is Mr Rogers was talking to all kids. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:10.840 I've been trying to get a black person to come 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.120 on this show and say that Mr Rogers transcends race. 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.160 Can I get you? Can I put you down for 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:23.240 transcends race? The way that when Prince died, he transcended race. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.160 Remember printed Prince dying David Bowie died, was like, no, 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:35.360 I said, David Bowie transcended race. Mr Rogers transcends his race. Wow, 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.600 we got it, we got it. Clip. Uh. Yeah, it's 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.240 funny because I think a lot about um. I think 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.400 a lot about this. He doesn't transcend race, he transcends 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.760 his race. That's so that's an interesting distinction. Tell me 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.160 more about that, just that he that he's so good 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.640 that I don't even score him down for being white, 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.760 that I don't I don't see him through through his whiteness, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.960 which I see a lot of people through their whiteness. Yeah, yeah, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.280 I Actually it's a really interesting point. No one had 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:07.120 made that quite as articulately. You're so articulate. I don't know, Uh, 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.240 no one's made that quite as articulately as you have. 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.840 That there was something It wasn't that he transcended sort 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:13.960 of the existence of race, but something about the way 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.680 he presented himself didn't allow you to think of him 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.400 just as a white guy period. And I wonder what 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.560 that is, Like, I mean, part of me thinks that 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:29.239 because he was trafficking in a certain kind of respect 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:35.680 and kindness that typically we don't see associated with like 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.600 your average run of the middle white person when interacting 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.280 with like the rest of the world, or your average 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:42.360 run of the middle kids show like there are a 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.920 lot of times they're yelling, you know, they're they're not 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.960 actually trying to connect they're trying to order, you know, 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.480 like do this now, do this? Go buy it? Like 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:58.400 it's very like shows, and he was just like he 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.760 just wanted to sit with you, and it was clear 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:02.400 he cared. And I mean, it's so hard to do 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.160 through the TV camera when you're looking at the camera 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.000 because he's literally looking at a camera. He's not looking 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.240 at a person. And I know that too from having 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:09.680 to look at camera when they say talk directly to 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.720 the camera along He's like yeah, because you're looking at 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.879 a box and you're looking at like half the camera 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:15.959 guys shoulder and you know, and you're wondering if he's 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:17.879 paying attention or whatever. How do you go about that? 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:19.879 Because I was gonna ask you about that, like about 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:24.480 similarities if any, that you see between Fred Rogers United Shades. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:26.040 I don't know if you can find that, but but 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.600 just as you a person who has to like do 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.359 a similar kind of work, which is I need to 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.200 talk to people, need to reach people at home, how 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.080 do you go about that technically? Like how do you 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.160 think through that? The thing I think about his vulnerability, 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.040 like if you're vulnerable on camera and if you let 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:41.800 people know when you don't know or if you let 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.800 people see you uh, if if you let people see 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:46.560 you break, or if you let people see you like 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.800 basically sweat, you know, there's like then they connect with 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.119 you as on a human level. I'm trying to be clear, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.760 I'm not the expert here. I'm sitting with some experts, 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.760 and I also don't always have the right opinion, and 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.720 sometimes I mispronounced thing, and sometimes I I will say, so, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:03.520 we had a moment in a show we did last 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.399 year in Salt Lake City and I sat down with 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.679 a bunch of young people to talk about what was 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.280 like like to be Mormon and me in the LGBTQ 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.119 plus community. What's that like? And I said to one person, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.640 I said, well, as a gay man. And the person 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:18.000 stops saying no, no no, no, I'm not a gay man. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.000 I'm intersex. And I was like, oh sorry, and the 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.040 person was like, no, no big deal, Like basically happens 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.360 all the time. And the first edit that came back 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.600 from the production, they cut out the moment of my mistake, 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.400 because that's what you're supposed to do in TV, cut 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.000 out the mistakes. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.440 that's real. That really happened. I'm not. If you cut 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:35.679 it out, it looks like I always know what I'm 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.600 talking about. To me, I like lean on the fact that, 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.320 like I that the audience, to the cores in the 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:41.800 show knows that I'm not trying to be the expert. 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.919 So for me, Mr Rogers feels like a person who's 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:47.920 making a TV show. He doesn't feel like the host 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:49.119 of a TV show. And I talked about that with 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.080 the United Shades. If I started to feel like I'm 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.240 hosting the TV show, We're doing something wrong. Fred Rogers 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.840 his work was very much of his time. He did 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:02.840 something on TV that was on the one hand, very successful. 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.000 On the other hand, almost no one else repeated it. 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.679 I mean, in his legacy there's a small tradition, but 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.679 for the large part, the rest of children television just 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:15.720 became more manic, more insane, more And so I guess 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:20.879 I wonder, assuming that you couldn't have that exact person 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.480 appear right now in the twenty one century, what would 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.160 have Fred Rogers of the century look like. You don't 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.200 want somebody to repeat, You want somebody to stand on 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.560