1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Do I start. Welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to start. 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: This is comedian W Kamal Bell. We met years ago 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: at the beginning of both of our careers. I think 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: I bombed a couple of volunteer events. Yeah, you bombed 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: a little bit and I got to see bombs. I 6 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: love this guy. Look at him bombing like a pro. Yeah, 7 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: it's great and uh and yeah, it's been wild that 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: our careers have gone in these crazy trajectories and now 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: we reunited to discuss Fred Rogers today come Out has 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: a CNN show called United Shades of America where he 11 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: travels around the US talking to people about what's wrong 12 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: with this country. And I wanted to talk with him 13 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: because he did something really interesting with that show. He 14 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: sat down with some of the most hateful people I 15 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: can think of, and he had a conversation. I'm Carvel 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about Fred 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Rogers from I Heeart Media and Fatherly in partnership with 18 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: Transmitter Media Early and I think it was the first season. 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: You talked with some white nationalists, uh, and some pretty 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: heavy movers in that. I imagine you've got a lot 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: of pushback from people about giving the people platform given, 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: how did you make sense? Why did you decide to 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: do that, and what did you learn in that experience. 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: I believe, and you know, platforming Richard Spencer or any 25 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: of these people would be tonight in the United Shades, 26 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to take the night off and let Richard 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: Spencer run the show. To me, that's platforming. That's normalizing. 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: Sitting out and talking to Richard Spencer about what he 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: believes in all of his white nationalists beliefs in the 30 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: middle of an episode that is highlighting the importance of 31 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: immigration and refugees in this country. To me, it's not platforming. 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: I also think when Trump was first selected, the fear 33 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: of platforming and normalizing is I think we're really buzzwords 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: at the left held onto in lieu of doing the 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: actual work, Like you know, no, we I feel like 36 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: looking at it in the face is actually helpful to 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: me to go how serious is this? Not looking at 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: it in the face? To me, is is sort of 39 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: a way to sort of like just pretend like you 40 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: can still go to yoga class and and uh in 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: the farmer's market. Because I think the reason why we 42 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: have Trumpet office right now is because a lot of 43 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: people on the left were wanting to look at him, 44 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't willing to really like is this possible. No, 45 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: it's not possible because I've been doing a chance in 46 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: the morning. So for me, it's the fact is it's 47 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: like if we've if we if we've learned anything in 48 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: this current air of America that we got to look 49 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: at the stuff in the face, you know what I mean. 50 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: So for me, you know, it's the it's sunlight's the 51 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: best disinfectant. Like I believe that. Did you find Richard Spencer, 52 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: uh intimidating who's probably a foot shorter than you. Yeah, 53 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: he's not as short as most whites spread. I think 54 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: that's why he was the leader. He was like, uh, 55 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: did you play in the NBA. After you go in there, 56 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: you do realize everybody's like five four and like, and 57 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: they would sort of trying to like walk up to me, 58 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: a couple of them trying to get me to a 59 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: flinch or just sort of like and it was like, 60 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: also six four, man, I'm not, I'm not. I just 61 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: sort of like it became fun to me to sort 62 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: of like look comfortable, you know. And so by the 63 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: time I sat down and talked to him. It was 64 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: really fine. We are here to talk about Mr Rogers, 65 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: And that's good because I was like, man, this is 66 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: really not what I prepared. Know. I tend to approach 67 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: things from like a um And Uh, the reason I'm 68 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: asking about your experiences with Richard Spencer's because I've been 69 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: really stuck on this this sort of ethical position that 70 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: Fred Rogers took, which is that it's it's you I like, 71 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: I like you just the way you are, Uh, that 72 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I wonder how that squares with 73 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: people who were like Richard Spencer. Could Fred Rogers say 74 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: I like you just the way you are? And I 75 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: know you can't speak for him, So I'm going to 76 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: ask you to speak for you. Did you when you 77 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: look at him, see anything that you felt compared fashion 78 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: forward when you talked with Richard Spencer or some of 79 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: these other white nationalists. So, Uh, the thing is when 80 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: I think about that, I like you just where you are. 81 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: When you sit down with people individually, a lot of 82 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: times all that stuff, a lot of the bluster goes away. 83 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: Like when I talked to the clan and uh, in 84 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: was it in Kentucky? It became very clear to me 85 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: after a while, like, Oh, you guys have come from 86 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: a community where there's no jobs, there's no opportunity, your 87 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: educational system isn't good, and you're just mad, and you 88 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: have bought a bill of goods from somebody that is 89 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: black people's fault. Like that's the problem is that that 90 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: you went from, Like I want more opportunity and more 91 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: jobs of my community too, it's got to be somebody's fault. 92 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: And then somebody sold you can we talk to you 93 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: about black people? They handed you the it's black people 94 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: of fault plans. And so for me, when I take 95 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: away the when I look at that part, I go, 96 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: that's the part I could have empathy with. You know, 97 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: these people are not the billionaire people who are sort 98 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: of running this country and using tools of white supremacy 99 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: to keep things going. These are people who are got 100 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: sold a bill of goods based on being vulnerable. A 101 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: few years ago, I was in Michigan reporting a story. 102 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: I was at the gym and I looked up and 103 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: saw Kamal's face on the TV screen. This was several 104 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: months after the election, and the alt right was feeling 105 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: definitely emboldened, so much so in fact, that they were 106 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: white supremacists marching in downtown Berkeley, of all places, which 107 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 1: happened to be where Kamal lived. He had just spoken 108 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: at a counter protest and on Fox News they were 109 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: playing his speech and calling him a radical black separatist, 110 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: and suddenly Kamal had become a target of white supremacists. 111 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: That was when I got streets got hot for me 112 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: for a second, exactly the streets got hot for you, 113 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, I was I had a 114 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: lot of feelings seen that, actually, dude, Like on the 115 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: one hand, I was like, this is absurd, but then 116 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: in the other hand, it kind of struck a little 117 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: bit of fear my heart because I thought, God, if 118 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: you can call comal, or if you can get like 119 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: like the Confederate flag waivers income ou as a black separty, 120 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: what who among us is safe? Like this is the 121 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: most integrated dude I've ever met. And uh and um. 122 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: I was just really amazed by that, and I thought 123 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: a lot about it, and I guess I want to 124 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: ask you what that experience was like for you to 125 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: be targeted in that way, and how you made sense 126 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: of that, like how you navigated that was that scary 127 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: at all, Like it only became because you had kids 128 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, it became scary because over the 129 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: next week or so, its like I became the like 130 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: the the deep intern dark web, intern hinterland Internet all 131 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: right target, Like I was just the person on the 132 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: summer Jam screen. So like like so all these memes 133 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: start going up, and you know, we were in downtown Berkeley, 134 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: so people see me walking into my house, you know, 135 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: and also we're right down where all the alt right 136 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: rallies are. It was scary. It was like the first 137 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: time I felt like that my thing deal on TV 138 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: is can affect my family, like in a way that 139 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: it feels like we have to sort of like think 140 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: about our security protocols and think about like where we 141 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: send our kids to school as opposed to like oh yeah, 142 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, and all these sorts of things that sort 143 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: of that that we weren't thinking in that way before. 144 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: Doesn't that kind of make you hate people like they're 145 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: putting your family in jeopardy and putting you in the 146 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: situation where you feel like, I mean, doesn't that like 147 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: trigger rage and hating you know, it triggers, like I'd say, 148 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: it triggers like Papa Bear, protect your family. You know. 149 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: It triggers like don't do anything stupid. The people who 150 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: are doing this I already wasn't a fan of anyway 151 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: like this has. Yeah, I sort of knew this, you know. 152 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: And also the history of black people in this country 153 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: is that, you know, you can't know the history of 154 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: our people without knowing that, like, you know, we get 155 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: taken out regularly. Now. I don't think I'm not trying 156 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: to be some sort of martyr or something, but it's 157 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: just like, if I choose to do this work and 158 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: I choose to be public about it, It's not that 159 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm like ready to die or any of that nonsense. 160 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: You know, I got too children to die right now. 161 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: But I do feel like this is a part of 162 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: the gig. I mean, my wife talked about that, like, 163 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: and I think about like people like Dick Gregory as 164 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: far as like he actually gave up comedy to be 165 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: an activist at one point in his life. And so 166 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: this is the work I want to do, and it 167 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: feels right now in this country, feels like it's necessary. 168 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: If anything, I feel bad, but I'm not doing more 169 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: of it. I think more about that, like what more 170 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: can I do or how can I do this better 171 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: than I think about the people who who have enmity 172 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: towards me. And also the thing is most of them 173 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: don't even They're just blah blah blah, like they're gonna 174 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: move on to the next person. We'll be right back. 175 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: What's your first earliest memory of seeing Fred Rogers or 176 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: seeing a show? Did you watch it growing up? I 177 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: watched you growing up, so I don't have like, h 178 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: I don't have the time. My mom sat me down. 179 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: We didn't have cable, so maybe cable. Uh, And so 180 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm talking about like Sesame Street, Mr Rogers, 181 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: the Electric Company, three to one contact for my old 182 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: heads out there lane right now. Yeah, So for me, 183 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: like Mr. Rogers is just one of the things that 184 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: I watched on TV. And then for me, the weird 185 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: part is like even when I got older, every now 186 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: again you flip past and go, let me just watch 187 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: a few minutes. Why what is what? What did that 188 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: bring to you? I think there's something the greatest of 189 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: kids programming, there's something so pure about it that it's 190 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: doing anything wants to do that adults watch it too, Like, 191 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: I think that's true when it's not pure when it's 192 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: really about like you just want my kid to buy 193 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: this thing, don't you. Then it's like it becomes too 194 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: self conscious of like the things that's trying to do. 195 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: But Mr Rogers is super pure. It's just like this 196 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: is one person statement being supported by the team of 197 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: people around him and somebody who works in TV. That's 198 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: hard to do. Yeah. I was going to ask you 199 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: about that, like as it has your understanding of what 200 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: he was able to do change now that you are 201 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: a maker of television. Yes, great, thank you, goodnight everyone. Yeah. No, 202 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's like it's hard to get everybody on 203 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: you if you have everybody on the same page that 204 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: they're all in service of of Mr Rogers. I still 205 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: call Mr Rogers, you say Fred because you know him 206 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: like that. But I've been called that only by black 207 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: people on the show. I just want to point that out. 208 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: White people have been like Fred, Red Fred. And then 209 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: I had viewing and she was like, you know him 210 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: like that exactly, Fred Rogers. Excuse me? Are you a 211 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: son that I didn't know? Uh? Mr Rogers? Is that 212 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: it's clear that like everybody was on the same page, 213 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: or at least I knew that this was this is 214 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: the voice I'm following. That's not that's not case nine 215 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: percent the TV that's ever been made. That's not the 216 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: case that they're not listening to one. For even some 217 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: of the TV we like, it was like it was 218 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: a nightmare back there, but when it happens, you can 219 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: feel it. So for me, there's not much difference between Mr. 220 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: Rogers and Atlanta. With Donald Glover, you could feel it 221 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: like there's not much on that show that Donald Glover 222 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: hasn't been like, check, it's funny, it's the Atlanta is 223 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: a really interesting comparison, one that I had never made um, 224 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: but that rings true for me, partially for what you 225 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: said about the creative process, but also because both of 226 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: those shows make a lot of use of space and silence, 227 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: and they do this thing where they train the listeners 228 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: to sit still long enough to start to feel and 229 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: experience more subtle levels of what's going on. And they've 230 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: built a lot of trust with the audience. So even 231 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: if you're like, where's this going, he was like, I'm 232 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: gonna sit here and see. And I think that's the 233 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: important thing too, is that this that you when you 234 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: build that trust with the audience, and that comes from 235 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: the audience knowing I trust that, uh Mr Rogers or 236 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: Mr Glover, I trust that these people have a plan 237 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: because so many times you watch a lot of TV 238 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: and it's like there's no plan. They just had to 239 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: get this done. They just had to turn this in 240 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: and there was a way which Mr Rogers did. There 241 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: something that feels like we're here for one purpose. We're 242 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: all pulling together and we're not trying to do something 243 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: that is cooler, hip or trendy. We want to create 244 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: an experience and have you joined us today and come 245 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: back the next time. Also, I think talk, I mean 246 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: I think against this from Mr Rogers. I think the 247 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: reason why I respond to Mr Rogers because the way 248 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: my mom treated me talking to your kids like their people, 249 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, like talking not talking to them like their kids. Like. 250 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: Certainly Mr Rodgers as slows down because he's trying to 251 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: makes you understand, but you feel like he's a friend 252 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: of yours. And I think and for me as a parent, 253 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: when you feel like you're like I'm the I'm your friend. 254 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm the friend who pays the rent so 255 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: every now and again to make some decisions. But really, 256 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: I would rather us be friends. I would rather us 257 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: talk through these problems instead of like, instead of me 258 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: saying because I said, so, yeah, you know, it's interesting 259 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: you bring up your mom and I met your mom 260 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: and read her book, and um, she's a person with 261 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: a very strong black identity, which is part of the 262 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: way you were raised. And um, and I wonder when 263 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: I talk to people about Fred Rogers. A lot of times, Uh, 264 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: they'll they'll bring up in some way, depending on their race, 265 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: a question about how I feel about him as a 266 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: black man. In other words, the question I was actually 267 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: talking with, of all people, Well, I'm not gonna name drop, 268 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: but I was talking with someone I don't know. I 269 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: was talking with someone in Cape God randomly that i'd 270 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: run into, who is a known historian, And I said, 271 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: I'm doing this thing in Fred Rogers. And he immediately 272 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: said he was a white guy. He immediately said, how 273 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: do black people feel about Fred Rogers? Just like sir. 274 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: That's why I'm not gonna name drop, because I don't 275 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: want to. I don't want to kill his book sales 276 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: because this book is very important. But um, but that's 277 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: the first thing he said, And uh, whatever, I stumbled 278 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: through the answer also kind of annoyed and then excuse myself. 279 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: But it did make me think about this inherent belief 280 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: that somehow what Fred Rogers did was like doesn't work 281 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: for blackness, or there is misaligned and like you know 282 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: that's been I mean, in the famous Eddie Murphy sketch, 283 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: that's sort of the premise of that joke is that 284 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: if you did Fred Rogers in the black neighborhood, it 285 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: might look like this. But I want to hear you 286 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how people in this so funny. 287 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: At the same time I was taking into Mr Rogers, 288 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: I was also watching Eddie Murphy on The Stay Night. 289 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: I never saw Eddie Murphy's Mr Robinsons Neighborhood as being 290 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: critical of Mr Rogers. His portrayal of Mr Rogers felt 291 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: like Mr Rogers, but an Eddie Murphy version of it. 292 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: And also it never occurred to me that it was 293 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: really the black version of Mr Rogers. It was just 294 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: the the the this version of blackness of Mr Rosson, 295 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: which is the thing white people do. That's the black version. 296 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: None of that's like the hood criminal black version Rogers. Sorry, 297 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: therefer criminal and black making news. So satists come out bell. Yeah, 298 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: so again, Tucker Carlson again. So for me, it was 299 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: just the idea that, like this is how this is 300 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy. It was a love letter Mr Rogers. And 301 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: when I watched Mr Rogers, I didn't watch him as 302 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: a white guy. I watched him as Mr Rogers. And 303 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: I think that's that's the thing. I think when a 304 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: white person asked that question, they understand Black people and 305 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: people of color can tell the difference between a white 306 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: guy and Mr Rogers. If that show had been made 307 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: for white kids, we would have been able to sniff 308 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: it through. Doesn't feel like it's talking to me, but 309 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: the fact is Mr Rogers was talking to all kids. 310 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: I've been trying to get a black person to come 311 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: on this show and say that Mr Rogers transcends race. 312 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: Can I get you? Can I put you down for 313 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: transcends race? The way that when Prince died, he transcended race. 314 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: Remember printed Prince dying David Bowie died, was like, no, 315 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: I said, David Bowie transcended race. Mr Rogers transcends his race. Wow, 316 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: we got it, we got it. Clip. Uh. Yeah, it's 317 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: funny because I think a lot about um. I think 318 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: a lot about this. He doesn't transcend race, he transcends 319 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: his race. That's so that's an interesting distinction. Tell me 320 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: more about that, just that he that he's so good 321 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: that I don't even score him down for being white, 322 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: that I don't I don't see him through through his whiteness, 323 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: which I see a lot of people through their whiteness. Yeah, yeah, 324 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: I Actually it's a really interesting point. No one had 325 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: made that quite as articulately. You're so articulate. I don't know, Uh, 326 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: no one's made that quite as articulately as you have. 327 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: That there was something It wasn't that he transcended sort 328 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: of the existence of race, but something about the way 329 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: he presented himself didn't allow you to think of him 330 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: just as a white guy period. And I wonder what 331 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: that is, Like, I mean, part of me thinks that 332 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,239 Speaker 1: because he was trafficking in a certain kind of respect 333 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: and kindness that typically we don't see associated with like 334 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: your average run of the middle white person when interacting 335 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: with like the rest of the world, or your average 336 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: run of the middle kids show like there are a 337 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: lot of times they're yelling, you know, they're they're not 338 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: actually trying to connect they're trying to order, you know, 339 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: like do this now, do this? Go buy it? Like 340 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: it's very like shows, and he was just like he 341 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: just wanted to sit with you, and it was clear 342 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: he cared. And I mean, it's so hard to do 343 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: through the TV camera when you're looking at the camera 344 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: because he's literally looking at a camera. He's not looking 345 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: at a person. And I know that too from having 346 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: to look at camera when they say talk directly to 347 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: the camera along He's like yeah, because you're looking at 348 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: a box and you're looking at like half the camera 349 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 1: guys shoulder and you know, and you're wondering if he's 350 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: paying attention or whatever. How do you go about that? 351 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: Because I was gonna ask you about that, like about 352 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: similarities if any, that you see between Fred Rogers United Shades. 353 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if you can find that, but but 354 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: just as you a person who has to like do 355 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: a similar kind of work, which is I need to 356 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: talk to people, need to reach people at home, how 357 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: do you go about that technically? Like how do you 358 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: think through that? The thing I think about his vulnerability, 359 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: like if you're vulnerable on camera and if you let 360 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: people know when you don't know or if you let 361 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: people see you uh, if if you let people see 362 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: you break, or if you let people see you like 363 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: basically sweat, you know, there's like then they connect with 364 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: you as on a human level. I'm trying to be clear, 365 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm not the expert here. I'm sitting with some experts, 366 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: and I also don't always have the right opinion, and 367 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: sometimes I mispronounced thing, and sometimes I I will say, so, 368 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: we had a moment in a show we did last 369 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: year in Salt Lake City and I sat down with 370 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: a bunch of young people to talk about what was 371 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: like like to be Mormon and me in the LGBTQ 372 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: plus community. What's that like? And I said to one person, 373 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: I said, well, as a gay man. And the person 374 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: stops saying no, no no, no, I'm not a gay man. 375 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm intersex. And I was like, oh sorry, and the 376 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: person was like, no, no big deal, Like basically happens 377 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: all the time. And the first edit that came back 378 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: from the production, they cut out the moment of my mistake, 379 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: because that's what you're supposed to do in TV, cut 380 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: out the mistakes. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, 381 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: that's real. That really happened. I'm not. If you cut 382 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: it out, it looks like I always know what I'm 383 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: talking about. To me, I like lean on the fact that, 384 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: like I that the audience, to the cores in the 385 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: show knows that I'm not trying to be the expert. 386 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: So for me, Mr Rogers feels like a person who's 387 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: making a TV show. He doesn't feel like the host 388 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: of a TV show. And I talked about that with 389 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: the United Shades. If I started to feel like I'm 390 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: hosting the TV show, We're doing something wrong. Fred Rogers 391 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: his work was very much of his time. He did 392 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: something on TV that was on the one hand, very successful. 393 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, almost no one else repeated it. 394 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: I mean, in his legacy there's a small tradition, but 395 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: for the large part, the rest of children television just 396 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: became more manic, more insane, more And so I guess 397 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: I wonder, assuming that you couldn't have that exact person 398 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: appear right now in the twenty one century, what would 399 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: have Fred Rogers of the century look like. You don't 400 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: want somebody to repeat, You want somebody to stand on 401 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: the shoulders of And also it means they may make 402 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: it look differently, and so I do feel like like 403 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: I think about like hair love the animated you know, 404 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: you know so so Matthew Cherry wrote a book care 405 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: Lovel about a black dad doing his daughter's hair, trying 406 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: to learn how to do his his black daughter's hair. 407 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: And I would say black twice just because it's possible 408 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: for people to have kids of different races. So it 409 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: just turned they turned into an animated feature. And it 410 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: is that almost sounds like science fiction to me, that 411 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: that's in a movie theater. And it's not like if 412 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: you read the book, that's all it's about. It's not 413 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: about and now we got to go fight a dragon, 414 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: you know it's and it's not about like or some 415 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: bad things gonna happen if I don't do your hair. 416 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: The steaks are not that high. But for me, there's 417 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: something about it that is pure. And that's what Mr 418 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: rogers legacy is is the pureness of how to sort 419 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: of like put out good content for kids in the 420 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: world that is so pure that adults are excited about it. 421 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: Given how expanse of his vision for love and acceptance 422 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: in the world was, and given how uh shitty the 423 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: world of the world is, do you think he was successful. Yes, 424 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: because I think that this is the thing I said 425 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: earlier about like when we're making when I'm making anything 426 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: I'm making, whether it's a podcast or writing or you know, shades, 427 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: when I'm writing it, I'm like, this is going to 428 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: change the world just because you I think you have 429 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: to feel that, have to feel that way. Every basketball 430 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: player thinks that they're they're like top five all time. 431 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: You have to think that, whereas why you out and 432 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: why are stepping out there? But then when you get 433 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: on the court, you just gotta make sure you're helping 434 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: win the game. Like maybe in the gym by yourself 435 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: your top five all time, or maybe when I'm home 436 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: writing on my computer or if I'm making nice shades. 437 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: I think this is going to be the thing that 438 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: is like the definitive episode on reproductive justice in America. 439 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: And then at the end you have to be I 440 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: hope people watch it and talk about it, and I 441 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: think Mr Rodgers one because people watched it and talked 442 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: about it have been inspired by it. You know. I 443 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: think that it's a big thing to do to make 444 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: the world a more equitable, just loving place. That's a 445 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: big task and you have to more people working on it. 446 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: You know, at the same time he was working on it, 447 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: there's a guy across town named Martin Luther King Jr. 448 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: Who was also working on you know what I mean. 449 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: So like and they're different ways to do this. I 450 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: don't want to call either one of them failures because 451 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: because it didn't happen. I think that I believe, and 452 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: there's not proof, right was that things move in a 453 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: more equitable and just direction. They just don't always move consistently, 454 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: and they don't always stay moving forward. Right now we're 455 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: at a point where it's starting to move back. But 456 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: I feel like in the long line of history took 457 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: to paraphrase Dr King who stole it from a Quaker, 458 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: the arc of history has been towards justice, but it 459 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: hasn't always been consistently towards justice. And I think that, Yeah, 460 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: I think that the fact that we're sitting here talking 461 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: about Mr Rogers, and in the fact that we're sort 462 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: of deconstructing it too, black men talking with Mr Rogers. 463 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: Mission accomplished? Do you? Um? My last question is, uh, 464 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: if he were here, I would be crying. And after 465 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: you composed yourself and stopped weeping and cleaned all this 466 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: snot off of your face. Bubbles bubble clear snot bubbles. 467 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: What would you ask him? What would I ask Mr Rogers? 468 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: I guess the thing you do? You feel successful? I 469 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: think that's the thing, because I think a lot of 470 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: times people who are in on that side of it 471 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: have very complicated things about what they've done. Sometimes it's like, 472 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what you caught, what the world tells you. 473 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: That's how do you feel inside? And so for me, 474 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: if he felt like nope, I would make me said, 475 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about that a lot too. Was Fred successful? 476 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: Did Fred feel successful? Next time we'll explore the ways 477 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: in which he was, but also the many ways in 478 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: which he wasn't. I went up to get him to 479 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: come down to the studio and he was. He was 480 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: a mess. He said, why am I doing? These? Aren't 481 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: going to do any good finding Fred is produced by 482 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: Transmitter Media. Our team is Dan O'donnald, Jordan Bailey, and 483 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: Maddie Foley. Our editor is Sarah Nicks. The executive producer 484 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: for Transmitter Media is Greta Cone. Executive producers at Fatherly 485 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: are Simon Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team 486 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: at I Heart Media. Our show is mixed by Rick Kwan, 487 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: music by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton Brown. I'm 488 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: Carla Wallace. Thank you for listening. The book up to bocket, Comboku, 489 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: cobakup copa, Coboku kobook book Book co Book up book 490 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: up to book bottom book book