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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know a thing

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Speaker 1: about swamps is that they reclaim everything. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if it's a plant or an animal, in case we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about today a human. I was born and

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Speaker 1: raised in Louisian. I've been around swamps my entire life.

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Speaker 1: I started out my career as a medical legal death

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Speaker 1: investigator in New Orleans. And just when you think you've

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Speaker 1: seen it all, you never know what's going to show up.

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Speaker 1: Day we found Brian Laundry. I'm Joe Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this his body backs back with me again today is

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Speaker 1: my friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Jackie, have you ever seen anything like this?

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Speaker 1: They have Brian Laundry. What what do we know up

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Speaker 1: to this point? Well, Joe, we know the remains found

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Speaker 1: in the Carlton Reserve do belong to fugitive Brian Laundry.

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Speaker 1: The FBI made that announcement today. This all began when

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Speaker 1: Chris and ROBERTA. Laundry, Brian's parents headed to Carlton Reserve

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Speaker 1: to search for their son. About thirty minutes into their

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Speaker 1: search that they came upon a white dry bag and

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Speaker 1: a backpack that contained items that reportedly belonged to Brian laundry.

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Speaker 1: As they turned those articles over to law enforcement. As

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Speaker 1: they turned those articles over to law enforcement, they were

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Speaker 1: informed that partial remains had been found. Jackie, I, I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you, one of the most striking things about

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Speaker 1: this whole case is that the parents were out there.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I ever recall case where, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe I've had cases in the past where

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Speaker 1: the the family actually found a person, but and the

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Speaker 1: dad walks up on all of these so called items,

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Speaker 1: And that's something I want to address. That term items

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Speaker 1: items can be defined very very broadly. And as soon

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Speaker 1: as I heard the term item, it was quickly followed

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Speaker 1: thereafter by saying the medical examiner was on the way,

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Speaker 1: and then the van rolled up. Let me tell you

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Speaker 1: some about medical examiners and corners. Medical examiners and corners

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Speaker 1: do not, and I repeat, do not show up at

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Speaker 1: a scene unless they are specifically invited. And let me

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Speaker 1: tell you why. They serve no purpose out there unless

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Speaker 1: there is a body. So that means that these items

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Speaker 1: that they found, and I think that's kind of a

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Speaker 1: broad way of saying that not only had they found

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Speaker 1: the backpack and the waterproof bag, but they had also

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Speaker 1: found at least part of a body. Now we don't

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Speaker 1: know how much because her own It came out that

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Speaker 1: it's partial remain. That means that it's incomplete. But you know,

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Speaker 1: with the m e out there, the first thing we

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Speaker 1: saw occurred as soon as they showed up. They started

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Speaker 1: throwing this tent up out there. And at first, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of folks were looking at this thinking, no, hell,

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Speaker 1: you know what, maybe maybe the tent is on top

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Speaker 1: of where the body was. No, it wasn't. It wasn't.

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Speaker 1: That was like a control area where they could bring

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Speaker 1: these items back to an examine them because you could

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Speaker 1: see tables in there. Trust me, you're not gonna put

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Speaker 1: tables on top of a deceased person. You're just not

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Speaker 1: gonna do that. So they were actually leaving the tent

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Speaker 1: and going out to the exact location where the body

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Speaker 1: was found. This is a problem, It's a major problem

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Speaker 1: because they say partial human remain. What does that mean. Well,

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Speaker 1: they're seeing something out there that is indicative of the

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Speaker 1: fact that this body has become somehow, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: throw a word out here that some of you may

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Speaker 1: not have heard. The body might be disarticulated. And when

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Speaker 1: bodies begin to decompose, uh, they actually become much easier,

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Speaker 1: essentially at the joints to pull apart. That's why when

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Speaker 1: scavengers show up, you know, like dogs and possums and

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Speaker 1: raccoons and this sort of thing. Codes, they can literally

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Speaker 1: grab hold of an ankle and begin to tug, and

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Speaker 1: that leg at the knee will actually become disarticulated. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: the foot becomes disarticulated, the arms, so forth and so on.

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Speaker 1: And that's problem in that these remains could very well

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Speaker 1: be scattered. Now, any number of times I've been out

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Speaker 1: on scenes where you walk up and there is the

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Speaker 1: core of the body, if you will, that's a real

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Speaker 1: popular term nowadays. I'm gonna work on my core. But

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Speaker 1: think about your chest and your abtom and that central

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Speaker 1: part it's called the axilla, the exilla skeleton that is

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Speaker 1: where your spine is, your rib cage, pell this these

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Speaker 1: sorts of things sometimes that will main intact. But the limbs,

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Speaker 1: the feet, the hands, the humorous uh, you know, these

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Speaker 1: longer bones. Sometimes they're gone, sometimes they're still intact, but

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Speaker 1: they'll be scattered, there will be scattered about, and if

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Speaker 1: this is scavenger activity, generally animals don't go too far

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Speaker 1: away with it. It's interesting that you say that, Joe,

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Speaker 1: because what was found in the Carlton Reserve or skeletal

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Speaker 1: remains bones? What does that tell you? Yeah, well that

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Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me at all, because you know why you

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Speaker 1: have skeletal remains. I know a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: gonna think. You know, I've heard people talk about alligators.

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Speaker 1: I've heard people talk about other things. Let me tell

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Speaker 1: you why this is basic biology. That area is so hot,

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Speaker 1: it is so human, so very wet, that the tissue

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Speaker 1: that's rest on our bones in life, as you begin

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Speaker 1: to decompose, it has a process that it goes through

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Speaker 1: and it's in It's what we call environmentally dependent. So

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Speaker 1: the rate at which a body actually decomposes is dictated

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Speaker 1: by environmental conditions and in this case, specifically heat. You

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Speaker 1: think about any experiment that you conducted when you were

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Speaker 1: a kid in school, It all started with heat. Didn't

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Speaker 1: had a bunch and burner alcohol burner had fire that

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Speaker 1: thing up, and you know, it speeds this process up.

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Speaker 1: So the hotter things are, uh, the body begins to

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Speaker 1: come apart. So what that tells me is that they're

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Speaker 1: dealing with skeletal remains and they don't have a complete skeleton.

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Speaker 1: When they talk about partial remains, is that a quantitative

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Speaker 1: phrase at all? I mean, are we talking about if

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Speaker 1: you had a hand, a finger as opposed to nine

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Speaker 1: of a body, no matter what it is, is still

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Speaker 1: going to be called partial remains. I think that that's

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Speaker 1: an excellent question, and I'm glad you asked that because

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Speaker 1: I think that if they're saying partial remains, it's not

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Speaker 1: simply gonna be that maybe one hand has been compromised,

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Speaker 1: or maybe you're missing the foot up to the ankle.

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Speaker 1: Now that's not what we're talking about. They're talking about

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Speaker 1: that there is a significant portion of this body that

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Speaker 1: is absent from the central portion that they have recovered.

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Speaker 1: And again I go back to spine, ribs, pelvis, perhaps

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Speaker 1: a skull. You folks might be surprised to learn that

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Speaker 1: many times the skull is hard to recover because if

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Speaker 1: animals do come along, particularly dogs, dogs love skulls. I've

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Speaker 1: had any number of cases over my career where dogs

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Speaker 1: have drugs skulls up into the backyards of folks. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine walking down in your backyard and your dogs

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Speaker 1: out there playing with the human skull. It's happened. It's

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Speaker 1: happened a number of times. And so that that in

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Speaker 1: and of itself is troubling because if you think that

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with an incomplete set of remains, all kinds

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Speaker 1: of other problems begin to arise from that. But because

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Speaker 1: you can't, you cannot evaluate the body or the skeletonized

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Speaker 1: remains in their totality. And that's what we do in

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Speaker 1: forensic pathology and medical legal death investigation. We look at

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Speaker 1: the body in its totality. That is, all systems are impacted,

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Speaker 1: all systems are affected, and it begins to paint the picture.

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Speaker 1: They have brin laundry at least part of a body.

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Speaker 1: You know, when that first came up in the news,

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Speaker 1: an area where the police had intensely been searching for

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Speaker 1: a protracted period of time. We're talking about weeks and days,

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Speaker 1: hours and hours of man time that have been spent

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Speaker 1: out in this marsh. I want to continue to discuss,

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Speaker 1: you know, how how exactly do you go about examining

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Speaker 1: a skeleton versus say, a partially intact body, And when

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Speaker 1: I say partially intact. Just understand this. What I'm what

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Speaker 1: I mean is that we're talking about soft tissue. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about skin, I'm talking about muscle, I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: the organs, all right. And if you have a totally uh,

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Speaker 1: skeletonized body, then that creates a myriad of problems because

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Speaker 1: you don't have points of reference, all points of reference

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Speaker 1: relative to things like well, I'll give you a good one, hemorrhage.

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Speaker 1: Let's say somebody has has sustained an injury to their neck.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just speculating here. Let's say that

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Speaker 1: they've been choked in some way, maybe uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: throttled like we remember with Gabby, or they've had a

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Speaker 1: ligature around their neck. Guess what if the body skeletonized,

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Speaker 1: there's not gonna be the evidence of that. You're not

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Speaker 1: gonna see hemorrhage in that particular case. And so it

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Speaker 1: makes makes a real daunting challenge for the forensic pathologists

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Speaker 1: that is going to begin to examine this body and

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Speaker 1: try to determine exactly what brought about the cause of death. Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, Joe, you're talking about the cause of

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Speaker 1: death right there. How is this difference between whether it's

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Speaker 1: bones or soft tissue. How is that going to play

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Speaker 1: into the identification of the body. Well, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: that's a good point because let's just say that that

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Speaker 1: you do have a body that is partially decomposed. And

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Speaker 1: we do know this. We do know that Brian Laundry

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Speaker 1: had some tattoos on his body. Now, something that that

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Speaker 1: our listeners might not understand is that as skin begins

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Speaker 1: to deteriorate, it takes on this kind of tanned appearance.

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Speaker 1: It almost has the appearance of of leather in many

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Speaker 1: in many circumstances, And that's that's right on target. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why, because the skin becomes dehydrated, but

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Speaker 1: it also gets kind of murky. It's hard to appreciate

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Speaker 1: special features with tattoos. Specifically, we do something that's called

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Speaker 1: skin scraping at at autopsy, where we actually take the

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Speaker 1: leading edge of a scalpel blade and we don't slice.

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Speaker 1: We actually kind of scrape down the surface of the

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Speaker 1: skin and knock off that top layer of epidermist that

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Speaker 1: has begun to uh deteriorate and decompose and down at

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Speaker 1: the dermist. Then at the dermal level, you actually begin

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Speaker 1: to appreciate once again, the manifest image of a tattoo

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Speaker 1: that's beneath that It isn't that amazing And you can

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Speaker 1: photographic and it can be used as a specific identifier.

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Speaker 1: So that's the difference between having skin tissue on the

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Speaker 1: body as opposed to have an a skeletonized body. And

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Speaker 1: again you know you're you're not gonna have signs of

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Speaker 1: hemorry anywhere if the body is absent the tissue to

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. All you're left with are these kind of

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Speaker 1: bony prominences and skeletal features that are left behind. Now,

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Speaker 1: you know, with with a skeleton itself, you know what

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Speaker 1: kind of trauma could we be looking at. Well, we

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Speaker 1: could if there's a depressed skull fracture, if you do

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Speaker 1: in fact have a skull, remember we're talking about they're

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Speaker 1: saying partial remain. If you do have a skull, you

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Speaker 1: can look with things like defects. And defects is again

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Speaker 1: no womb ten dollar words that doctors like to use,

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Speaker 1: and it means whole. It means something that's not supposed

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Speaker 1: to be there, all right, So you can have a

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Speaker 1: defect in the skull that might be indicative is say

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Speaker 1: for instance, a gunshot one or maybe uh, someone has

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Speaker 1: taken a blunt instrument and driven it into the skull

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Speaker 1: and that creates a what's what's referred to as a

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Speaker 1: depressed skull fracture. Now you can have evidence of that,

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Speaker 1: and you can kind of, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you can kind of evaluate that in its context and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I think within a reasonable certainty that this very well

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Speaker 1: might be what brought about the cause of death. But

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Speaker 1: again you're not going to have the associated hemorrhage with it.

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Speaker 1: And here's the question, here's the big question. Did the

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Speaker 1: injuries that you're seeing on that skeleton did they occur

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Speaker 1: anti mortem, which means before death, or did they occur

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Speaker 1: post mortem? Because all kinds of things can happen to

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Speaker 1: a body after it's been out there, particularly for this

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Speaker 1: long animal activity. Whether I've I've actually had cases where

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Speaker 1: branches have fallen off of trees and crushed underlying deceased

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Speaker 1: persons that were decomposing. So you have to factor in

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Speaker 1: all of these elements. And that's what that's what makes

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Speaker 1: this so complicated. You know, we begin to think about

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Speaker 1: poor little Gabby that was found out there in the Tetons.

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Speaker 1: Her body, as horrible as was her body is going

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Speaker 1: to have been relatively intact compared to what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about right now, because that environment out in Titons as

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Speaker 1: wild and rugged as it is, as you know, all

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Speaker 1: the predators that everybody was talking about, and they've got

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Speaker 1: nothing on South Florida Swamp because it's not just the animals,

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Speaker 1: it is the weather and that is the biggest fight,

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Speaker 1: the environmental conditions, and it can compromise any evaluation that's

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Speaker 1: going to go forward relative to the forensic carthologists and

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Speaker 1: the one other person I haven't mentioned, and that's the

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist, because trust me, they will have an individual

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Speaker 1: out there that specializes in the examination of human skeletal remains.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna be out there, and you know, folks will say, well,

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Speaker 1: why do you why do you need an anthropologist at

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Speaker 1: the scene. I thought they were only in the lab. Look,

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Speaker 1: being in the lab as a forensic anthropologist is only

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Speaker 1: part of the job. And talking about the conditions there

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Speaker 1: in the swamp for is that going to mean for

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Speaker 1: the possibility of finding any of the remains. We know

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner was there the day that the remains

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Speaker 1: were found back again the next day. We know that

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Speaker 1: they're looking for more remains. Given what you just described,

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Speaker 1: what's the possibility there. There's a good possibility because if

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Speaker 1: if the remains are scattered and this happens as a

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Speaker 1: result of scavenger activity, which I would probably suspect, they're

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Speaker 1: going to be out in kind of a perimeter around

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Speaker 1: the body. You know, I always use the analogy of

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Speaker 1: a wagon wheel with a hub and the spokes going out.

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Speaker 1: Just imagine that with the body there, and the scavengers

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Speaker 1: walk out with these remains. They don't carry them very

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Speaker 1: far because most of the animals that would scavenge your

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Speaker 1: body have burrows nearby, so they'll try to carry them

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Speaker 1: back to their burrows, or they're dropping them right outside

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Speaker 1: of it. Now, this is what you're going to see.

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Speaker 1: More than likely, they would probably bring a cadaver dog

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Speaker 1: back out there, So don't be shocked if you see

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Speaker 1: that on the news there, bring a cadaver dog back

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Speaker 1: out there, and they will go back to that central

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Speaker 1: location where the primary portion of those remains were found,

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Speaker 1: and they will kind of go out in a radiating

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Speaker 1: pattern from that central point and continue to work those

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Speaker 1: dogs out to look for anything, and I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: even the smallest bones of the hand. Those dogs have

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Speaker 1: the ability to pick up on that, and they'll they'll

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Speaker 1: pick up on a scent. Now, look, come on, let's

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Speaker 1: face it, there's no way and God's green Earth, they're

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Speaker 1: going to recover every single bit of these remains, particularly

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Speaker 1: if animals have been at it, because some things they'll

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Speaker 1: just vanished, and it'll be quite blunt with you. Some

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Speaker 1: of these are actually consumed by these animals, so you're

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Speaker 1: not gonna get the full picture. Okay, So then at

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Speaker 1: what point do they say enough is enough and stop

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Speaker 1: the search? You know, there's only so far that you

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Speaker 1: can go working these animals and also working the personnel

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Speaker 1: that you have out there. Uh, they'll break off into

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Speaker 1: teams and again radiating out, and they'll walk off generally

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Speaker 1: into pair and they'll begin to kind of go shoulders

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Speaker 1: shoulder and walk in straight lines where they begin to

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Speaker 1: search the soil. And they'll be very very careful, very careful,

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Speaker 1: because you're getting into a season now where you're losing

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Speaker 1: some leaves on those trees down there. Things could be

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Speaker 1: covered up, so they'll have to turn over objects on

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Speaker 1: the ground to see if there's anything beneath them, and

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Speaker 1: they don't automatically pick it up. What they do is

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Speaker 1: they flag it. They'll put a little orange flag right

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Speaker 1: next to it, and then the photographer will come out,

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Speaker 1: they'll take photographs of it, and you know what else

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Speaker 1: they're gonna do. They'll measure it. They'll actually go back

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Speaker 1: to that central location where the body was initially found

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Speaker 1: and they'll take a tape measure and they'll go out

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Speaker 1: and they will measure the distance from that actual central

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Speaker 1: location out to where that remain is found. And at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day you can actually take this

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Speaker 1: and plot it on the computer and give you an

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Speaker 1: idea of how far out these remains are distributed. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to recover everything. That's that's almost an empirical impossibility,

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Speaker 1: you know, unless something odd has happened. Where you're talking

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Speaker 1: about a dismembered body, which I don't think that we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with right here. You're dealing with a body that

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Speaker 1: has been subject to the environment which it has been found.

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Speaker 1: So back to the skeleton versus partial remains. If you

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Speaker 1: don't have soft tissue to pull DNA from, if you

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Speaker 1: only have bone, and if it's been out in the

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Speaker 1: in the elements for a while and animals have been

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Speaker 1: able to get to it. More than likely there will

304
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Speaker 1: not be any bone marrow left. Am I correct? And

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Speaker 1: can you still get DNA? Yeah, of course you can.

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Speaker 1: You can still get d NA um and from the time,

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Speaker 1: if yeah, you can, you can board down into the

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Speaker 1: bones and recover DNA many times. Uh, if they're still

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Speaker 1: viable marrow, you said, you said a lot. Not all

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Speaker 1: of these bones are gonna be compromise, Jackie, not every

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Speaker 1: single one of them. Some almis still be intact. So

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna have of the DNA that is completely

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Speaker 1: compromised that's out there still containing the bones. And one

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Speaker 1: thing we're forgetting about. One of the most um viable

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Speaker 1: sources of DNA are going to be the teeth. And

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Speaker 1: there's dentition in dwelling, and what that means are the

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Speaker 1: teeth are still present. Uh. It's fancy talk that doctors

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Speaker 1: use if the dentition is still present, and that's the

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Speaker 1: way they phrase that. If the teeth are still present,

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Speaker 1: they can actually extract one of the teeth. Generally it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a mol or something that's kind of robust,

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Speaker 1: and they will bore down into it when they have

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Speaker 1: these little tiny drills that they go into the tooth,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the tooth has multiple layers anatomically, the

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Speaker 1: way it's set up. What you want to get down

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Speaker 1: to is the pulp of the tooth, and they're in there.

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Speaker 1: In that pulk is actually contained the d N A

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Speaker 1: and I've described it many times. Bones are kind of

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Speaker 1: like a leather briefcase that you store information in. A

330
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Speaker 1: tooth is almost like a titanium briefcase that store information in.

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Speaker 1: They're very resilient. You can go back to the to

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Speaker 1: the Egyptians and still find teeth there that we're mummified.

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00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 1: So it's a valuable source. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that you know, I kind of wanted to point out

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00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 1: many times, and the skeletal remains, you will still find

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Speaker 1: actual hair attached um to the skull. Again, uh, if

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00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: in fact it is there, and sometimes it's not necessarily

338
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 1: on the scalp, it's underlying a skull on the ground

339
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 1: in the dirt, so you have to be very careful

340
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 1: when you recover it. But you can certainly get partial

341
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: DNA maybe from a hair chaft, but you can go

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Speaker 1: in if there is a root of vible roots that's

343
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 1: still there, and maybe you can go in there and

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00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 1: collect it. They're gonna, look, they're gonna put a full

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Speaker 1: court press on this. I can tell you where they're

346
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 1: not going to get DNA. They're not going to get

347
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: it from blood because it's not gonna be available. I mean,

348
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 1: that's that's logic. And all the soft tissues you pointed out, Jackie,

349
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Speaker 1: soft tissue is gone. You're not going to go into muscle.

350
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Speaker 1: You're not gonna go into the muscle to to glean uh,

351
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 1: to glean any kind of DNA sample because more than

352
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 1: likely it's not there, no soft tissues there. I really

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Speaker 1: want to continue this conversation regarding what are the next

354
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: steps you know, relative to this partial skeleton will remain

355
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 1: that that's been found. Uh, what are we looking at

356
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 1: relative to all of this? What are we looking at, Joe?

357
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: Because we do now know that the remains found in

358
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Speaker 1: the Carlton Reserve belonged to Brian Laundry. They used a

359
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: dental comparison between the skull that was recovered and dental

360
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 1: records of Brian Laundry to confirm identity. Now we just

361
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 1: need to find out why he died because of Death's

362
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: gonna be the big question. That's what everybody's gonna be

363
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 1: scratching their head over, and they're gonna be turning these

364
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 1: scientists and asking that question. There will be some really

365
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: hard questions asking folks that aren't used to asking these

366
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Speaker 1: kind of questions, or they're going to get an education

367
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Speaker 1: because I gotta tell you, if you have nothing and

368
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: I'm talking about tissue sample to base these findings on,

369
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Speaker 1: you're gonna be really hard because right now it's gonna

370
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: be very, very difficult to make this determination. If you're

371
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Speaker 1: talking about bone, you are you are reliant upon the

372
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: hope that you're going to be able to find some

373
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Speaker 1: kind of trauma to the bone that is prior to

374
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Speaker 1: death anti mortem. That is, gunshot wounds, knife wounds, those

375
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: sorts of things that might UH leave marks on the

376
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Speaker 1: bone that are going to point back to the specific,

377
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: specific direction and you know, the skull in my opinion,

378
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Speaker 1: and my opinion is the key to all of this

379
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: because let's let's face it, most people that that die,

380
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: particularly young people that die in UH, in sudden events

381
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: like this, many times the head and the neck are involved.

382
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 1: So that's important. If you don't have tissue surrounding that area,

383
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: then you're relying on the bony underlying surfaces. Well, what

384
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: are we looking for. We're looking for gunshot once, We're

385
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: looking for fractured skulls or fractured necks to give us

386
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: some kind of indication. And I know folks are gonna

387
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: ask this question. It seems like it always keeps cropping

388
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 1: up in this bizarre set of circumstances. What about the highoid?

389
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: What about the highoid? You know what, I don't know

390
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: that in my entire career, I ever came across a

391
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: set of skeletal remains where high ooid was actually recovered.

392
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: You know why, because the sky the highoid. You know why,

393
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 1: because the highoid is actually surrounded by soft tissue. I

394
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: go back to what I've said before, it's only non

395
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: articulated bone in the body. So if scavengers get to

396
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: the area in the neck, when they you know, they

397
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: take the throat out, for instance, they're gonna haul that

398
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: highoid off with them. It vanishes, It disappears. Is it's

399
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: a very fragile punctor. You're not even gonna have an

400
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: opportunity to examine it. And that's just a possibility. For

401
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: all I know it's sitting there, but if I were

402
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: a betting man, I'd say that it probably isn't, particularly

403
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: given this harsh environment that they're out there. And talking

404
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: about circumstantial evidence, Another big piece thro this is there

405
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 1: are a lot of cases out there where people come

406
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: across bodies in the woods and it's it's quite chilling

407
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: when you think about it. Can you imagine coming upon

408
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: a skeleton or skeletonized remains and looking down adjacent to

409
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: the body laying on the ground, there is a rusty

410
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: handgun and many times people will go out into the

411
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: woods and they'll take their lives and that weapon is

412
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: laying there. Now, that would be maybe one of the

413
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: grandest pieces of evidence, UH that you could find from

414
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: circumstantial uh perspective, that you could actually have a forensic

415
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: tie back with that weapon. Because it will have a

416
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: serial number on it. You can idea who possessed that weapon,

417
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: where the individual would have acquired that weapon from, and

418
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: he also begin to look for evidence that the weapon

419
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: has been fired. If it's a semi automatic pistol, how

420
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: many rounds are still existent in the magazine? Is there

421
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: a live round still in the chamber. Is there an

422
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: ejected shell case in laying around there? I gotta tell

423
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: you one of the things that that FBI Evidence Response

424
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: team is doing out there, in addition to looking for

425
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: skelptal remains, there's somebody right now that is absolutely sweating

426
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: to death. I can guarantee you walking through those woods,

427
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: and they've got a set of headphones on, and they

428
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: have got a metal detector walking before them or moving

429
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: before them, sweeping back and forth and back and forth,

430
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: waiting for any kind of little hit on a metallic

431
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: body that might be adjacent to that body. That will

432
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: tie back to perhaps giving you answers from the circumstantial perspective.

433
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: Of course, So if we can't use what you can

434
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: physically see on bones or soft tissue as in a

435
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: bullet wound or ligature marks, what about the tox screens.

436
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: You talk about hot screens a lot. How much do

437
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: you have to have to get a tox screen? Do

438
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: you have to have blood? Can you get it from

439
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: the tissue? What? Yeah, Well that's that's the million dollar question.

440
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and reveal you a little inside secret here.

441
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: And typically if we don't have blood, are vitreous which

442
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 1: is the fluid and the eye or urine. With decomposed bodies.

443
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: Many times, you know, they'll they'll take the liver. They'll

444
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: take a sample of the liver and put it in

445
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: a centrifuge, which is one of these devices that spins

446
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: around and liquefies things, and they liquefy it down to

447
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: the point where they can draw it up and they'll

448
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: run a tox screen on it. Remember, the liver is

449
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: one of the most toxic organs in the body. It's

450
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: like a gigantic filter, so it retains a lot of stuff.

451
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: But in this case, Jackie, they're talking about skeletal remains,

452
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: so you're not gonna be able to turn to that.

453
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: So that leaves us with what's remaining the circumstantial evidence.

454
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: You know, if if if this is say, for instance,

455
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: a drug O D all right, then maybe there will

456
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: be a pill ville thereby, maybe there'll be a hypodermic

457
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: needle that's still existent there that you could take a

458
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: look at and kind of ascertain now, uh, that this

459
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: is something that was utilized to bring about an individual's death.

460
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: And of course you're gonna have to backtrack with this.

461
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a pill Ville. You have

462
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: to go back and talk to the doctor that prescribed it. Um.

463
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: If it's some kind of a list of drug, good

464
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: luck with that. Now. If the syringe is there, you

465
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: can actually analyze it. Syringe sometimes they're kind of protective

466
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: of the content. Maybe you can get a uh, you know,

467
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: some semblance of something that's contained there in And I'm thinking,

468
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: of course, the first thing comes to mind is heroin,

469
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: but I don't know of any involvement with that. And

470
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: then other circumstantial evidence that we look for for causal factors,

471
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: particularly someone that's out alone in the woods like this.

472
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: One of the things I'd be looking for is perhaps

473
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: a length of rope tied to a tree. You say, well,

474
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: why why would you say that? Well, here's why, because

475
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: many times, and I want you to listen very very

476
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: carefully what I'm about to say, because most people can't

477
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: believe this actually happens. Do you know that many times

478
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: people will hang themselves in trees and they're not found

479
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time. Guess what happens to

480
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: the body. The body by virtue of gravity, Remember gravity's

481
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: constant force in our world. Gravity pulls on that body

482
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: that's hanging from that noose, and guess what happens. The

483
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: head literally comes off. It comes off, and the body

484
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: crashes to the ground below the noose. And so that

485
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: automatically gives you a circumstance where, say, for instance, a

486
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: disarticulated head can be taken off by scavenger, the rest

487
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: of the body can be scavenged, and if the investigators

488
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: are not looking up, if they're only looking down the

489
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: piece of evidence that they could potentially miss. So are

490
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: you telling me then that if it is only skeletal remains,

491
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: that it's not possible to do a tox screen. Yeah,

492
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: if if it is only skeletal remains, it would I

493
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: cannot imagine any circumstance where you would be able to

494
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: draw up any kind of viable sample for toxicological analysis.

495
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: I just I don't see how that would be possible,

496
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: because there's not going to be any evidence unless it's

497
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: some kind of uh, unless it's some kind of peripheral

498
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: test that someone else is aware of, and I am

499
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: not on bone, You're not gonna be able to find

500
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: any evidence of those. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this

501
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: is body backs