WEBVTT - The Story of Starvation Heights

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's

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<v Speaker 2>here two. Jerry's here too, and I'm here too. That's

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<v Speaker 2>me Josh, And this is Stuff you Should.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, the We're All Three Feeling Weird edition.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and that's strange. So yeah, I said that

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<v Speaker 2>I was just feeling kind of off today and you

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<v Speaker 2>said me too, and Jerry said me three.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what does that mean?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but I mean that is very That's

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<v Speaker 2>remarkable to me that all three of us, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we all have three different personalities. Ye, we don't like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we don't live together, despite what most people think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, not anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>No, So I don't know what it is. Maybe something's

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<v Speaker 2>in retrograde and something's house or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>That whole thing. Yeah, stuff you should Know is in retrograde,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever that means.

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<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, we'll do our best with this. I'll do

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<v Speaker 2>my best not to break out in tears.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I think would be okay. And big thanks to

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<v Speaker 1>Julia for helping us put together this episode on one

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<v Speaker 1>of the quacks of all quacks. I feel like we

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<v Speaker 1>have covered quite a few quacks over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this one know isn't as bad as that one

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<v Speaker 2>guy that we did though, But she's up there for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I think she still has her supporters, Like

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<v Speaker 2>you can still buy her books online. Yeah, but most

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<v Speaker 2>people who are familiar with their case are like, she

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<v Speaker 2>was a serial killer, right, she just had a strange,

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<v Speaker 2>strange method of murder.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, of bleeding people of their money.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, for sure and their life force.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>As Toby Hooper might put it, that's right. So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about a woman named Linda Burfield Perry Hazard.

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<v Speaker 2>There's at least two hyphens in there. Yeah, And she

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<v Speaker 2>was born in the nineteenth century, but was doing most

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<v Speaker 2>of her work in the late nineteenth early twentieth century.

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<v Speaker 2>And she was a person who was vehemently opposed, like

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<v Speaker 2>from what I could tell, like very seriously, like this

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<v Speaker 2>was her personal philosophy against what would be called modern

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<v Speaker 2>medicine today, but at the time was you know, just

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<v Speaker 2>starting out as we'll see.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, she was a self described fasting specialist.

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<v Speaker 1>She had no medical degree. She did have wealthy patients

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<v Speaker 1>and I was about to say patrons, but I guess

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<v Speaker 1>they were patients and she said she was the only

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<v Speaker 1>fasting specialist in the world. You know, this was sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the time of the sanitarium sanatorium world, where you

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<v Speaker 1>could go off and practice some very questionable methods of

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<v Speaker 1>healing people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like the Kellogg brothers in Battle Creek.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, because you know that we had not in

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<v Speaker 1>the United States yet set up sort of rules around

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<v Speaker 1>the medical world at this point.

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<v Speaker 2>No, but it's coming. It's like right around that time,

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<v Speaker 2>and in part because of so much quackery that was

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<v Speaker 2>going on the same time. A lot of this stuff

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<v Speaker 2>is what you would call alternative medicine today or just

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<v Speaker 2>sensible stuff. Like the Kellogg brothers had a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>weird stuff, and their whole jam was fairly weird, But

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<v Speaker 2>if you boiled everything down to what they were saying,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of it was like diet and exercise, which

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<v Speaker 2>is just great advice today as far as health is concerned.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is is like some people took this to

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<v Speaker 2>terrible extremes. Other people were peddling just like outright fake

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<v Speaker 2>and dangerous medicines, Like yeah, there were the outliers were

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<v Speaker 2>so bad that they were ruining it for everybody who

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<v Speaker 2>actually had some legitimate stuff that they were doing, and

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<v Speaker 2>Linda Hazard was an outlier. Although again I think she

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<v Speaker 2>was a true believer in herself and her cure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. But you know, to be clear, she

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<v Speaker 1>was not serving up bowls of granula. She was killing

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<v Speaker 1>people like I think fifteen patients starved to death under

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<v Speaker 1>her watch. Yes, and she would eventually go to trial

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<v Speaker 1>for the murder of one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was a sensation in nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>Twelve, a real sensation.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about Linda Burfield Perry Hazard, who we're just

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<v Speaker 2>going to call Linda Hazard from here on out. But

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<v Speaker 2>she was born Linda Burfield in Minnesota in eighteen sixty seven,

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<v Speaker 2>as most people in eighteen sixty seven were born what

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<v Speaker 2>really rurally, and a lot of them in Minnesota. I

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<v Speaker 2>think something like ninety eight percent of births in eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixty seven took pres Minnesota.

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<v Speaker 1>That's incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>She actually had an experience, she said, she wrote again

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of books, eleven by my count. Oh well,

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<v Speaker 2>and so she said, according to herself, that she had

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<v Speaker 2>been she had run into modern medicine as a child,

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<v Speaker 2>and this doctor had given her some pills blue mass

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<v Speaker 2>pills that are essentially mercury pills, and they were like

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<v Speaker 2>fairly regularly used at the time, but they did not

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<v Speaker 2>sit very well with her.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it made her really sick, like this again, this

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<v Speaker 1>is the day when they would, you know, a doctor

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<v Speaker 1>would say like, here, take this thing, because it'll cure

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<v Speaker 1>basically anything you have. And that's always the red flag,

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<v Speaker 1>even if it's not pure snake oil, the sort of

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<v Speaker 1>cure all thing. And it made it really sick, very memorably,

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<v Speaker 1>so like digestively for the most part. But after that

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<v Speaker 1>she was like, I'm done with doctors and I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to eventually be my own doctor and be a doctor

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<v Speaker 1>to other people. She married a guy named Edwin Perry

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<v Speaker 1>in eighteen eighty six, had a couple of kids, got divorced,

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<v Speaker 1>and apparently I don't know if that led to her

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<v Speaker 1>divorce when she just sort of went center of left

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<v Speaker 1>as far as her care goes. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>was it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's possible that was the impression. I have too, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure. There's so much just random stuff that

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<v Speaker 2>people say about her that may or may not be true.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of surmising.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it said center of left too, by the way, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing is, Chuck, is everyone knew what you meant,

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<v Speaker 2>so that counts as communication. You know, don't be such

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<v Speaker 2>a prescriptionist.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right left of center. But she married Perry, got divorced,

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<v Speaker 1>and then fell into the care of doctor Edward Dewey,

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<v Speaker 1>who was a a faster. He preached fasting. He basically

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<v Speaker 1>said that, you know, every disease that we have comes

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<v Speaker 1>from habitual eating and excess. Basically like you're out eating

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<v Speaker 1>what your stomach and your gastric juices can handle.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the sum total of Linda Hazard's whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, she had a three prong approach, which was

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<v Speaker 2>intense fasting ama anema an I've read that that her

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<v Speaker 2>enemas lasted for hours sometimes.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that was also the title of your second LP, right, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was my cover songs of William Shatner's cover r that's right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's actually appropriate title for that. Or lobotomy lobotomy lobotomy. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the other one was powerful massage that I

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<v Speaker 2>think calling a massage is fairly genous. Yes, she would

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<v Speaker 2>pound on her patients and apparently shall eliminate, eliminate because

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<v Speaker 2>again she's trying to get undigested food and poop that's

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<v Speaker 2>left over out of the body. And by fasting, you're

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<v Speaker 2>not introducing more food, You're letting the body rest while

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<v Speaker 2>getting rid of the food that's been undigested. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>source of all of your diseases.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like you drank the colon clints before your first

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<v Speaker 1>colonoscopy kind of empty.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, Oh, she would have loved that stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, probably, so. She did take a few nursing classes.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we have to mention that I'm not trying

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<v Speaker 1>to legitimize he or anything, but she did take a

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<v Speaker 1>few osteopathic nursing classes. She opened a fasting therapy practice

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<v Speaker 1>in Minneapolis. There this is when she went by doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Linda Burfield Perry, even though she was divorced from Edwin Perry.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, she said, like, come on in, I'll beat

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<v Speaker 1>on you. I will. I will not let you eat anything,

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<v Speaker 1>like really not at all. As we'll see, let's hold

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<v Speaker 1>on to that little factoid like how little these people

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<v Speaker 1>are eating. But she would find love again in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>oh three, or find something in the way of a

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<v Speaker 1>swindler named Samuel Hazzard, who was a He would go

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<v Speaker 1>to jail for bigamy because he was already married and

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<v Speaker 1>I guess did not get divorced and also married Linda Burfield,

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<v Speaker 1>and so he went to jail for a couple of years. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and then got out of jail and they're like, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>we're good to go. Let's go to Seattle.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's where her practice really started. The two

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<v Speaker 2>of them together like really kind of established this.

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<v Speaker 1>Well.

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<v Speaker 2>They call it Wilderness Heights, and it was supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be like a sanitarium or retreat where you went and

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<v Speaker 2>got this fasting cure. And it's just like you said,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to be wary of cures that cure everything,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was very much the case with her. She

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<v Speaker 2>apparently was saying like, once you go through the fasting

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<v Speaker 2>cure and you get all this crowd out, you're set

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<v Speaker 2>like everything from you can go have a kid and

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<v Speaker 2>have no pain during childbirth. You're not going to get

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<v Speaker 2>toothaches anymore. If you're an alcoholic, you won't be an

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<v Speaker 2>alcoholic anymore. If you're depressed, no more depression, Like it's

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<v Speaker 2>a cure all from her stance, that's how she basically

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<v Speaker 2>advertised it. I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So she's the main player here, Samuel. Her husband

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<v Speaker 1>is a little bit in the background, but he'll pop

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<v Speaker 1>up here and there when it comes to the financials.

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<v Speaker 1>And then our other couple of players are Claire and

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<v Speaker 1>Dora Williamson. They were English. They were daughters of an

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<v Speaker 1>English military person, Evelyn Dorothy. Her name was Dora. She

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<v Speaker 1>went by Dora Williamson. She was born in India in

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen seventy three, and then her sister Enid Lily and

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<v Speaker 1>Claire Williamson was born in London in eighteen seventy seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And they were basically from teenagers on. Had no parents.

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<v Speaker 1>I think their father died after Claire was born and

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<v Speaker 1>then their mom died about sixteen years later. So they were,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, they were orphaned teens who were really really

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<v Speaker 1>rich and really really tight, very close with one another,

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<v Speaker 1>and seemed to be like adventurous, not in a hurry

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<v Speaker 1>to get married, which is what you would think for

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<v Speaker 1>the time period to get married right away. They kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like to travel the world and go on adventures

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<v Speaker 1>and not follow the prescribed method.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were independent women of the nineties, eighteen nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>that's right. So they also though they weren't entirely orphan,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean as far as like biological parents, maybe you're concerned,

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<v Speaker 2>But they had a governess who took care of them

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<v Speaker 2>as well, and I think kind of was part of

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<v Speaker 2>their life long before their mother died. But I have

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<v Speaker 2>the impression that she was like an additional mom or

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<v Speaker 2>an additional grandmother or something to them, Right, So.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's how the richies do it, Yeah for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So just keep that in mind that these women are

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<v Speaker 2>slightly outside of the norm. They have no problem with

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<v Speaker 2>being slightly outside of the norm. And they are very

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<v Speaker 2>interesting and interested people, are very curious, and one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that they are focused on is natural health.

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<v Speaker 2>Like they're just super into that kind of thing. And

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<v Speaker 2>by the time they cross paths with Linda Hazzard, they've

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<v Speaker 2>done like all sorts of stuff, like any kind of

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<v Speaker 2>cure you can think of. They've traveled to some sanitarium

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<v Speaker 2>or some notorium, they've traveled to some health clinic, and

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<v Speaker 2>they've just done this whole thing. It's like basically what

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<v Speaker 2>they were interested.

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<v Speaker 1>In, Yeah, for sure. And you know, they did some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of brave things at the time. For the time

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<v Speaker 1>period they were like, I don't want to wear corsets anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>They're super uncomfortable, and don't I think they're probably bad

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<v Speaker 1>for us. Sure, so they didn't wear corsets anymore. They

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<v Speaker 1>gave up meat. Eating meat was or being vegetarian, I

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<v Speaker 1>guess at the very least was a pretty weird thing

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<v Speaker 1>back then. So they were definitely following their own path.

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<v Speaker 1>And then in nineteen ten they were in their thirties.

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<v Speaker 1>At this point they were in the beautiful Empress Hotel

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<v Speaker 1>in Victoria, British Columbia.

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<v Speaker 2>You sounded like you're an announcer for the Price's right.

0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.360
<v Speaker 1>It looks really nice. I mean it's still around from

0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.479
<v Speaker 1>what I can tell, at least the pictures of modern.

0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a fairmunt now, Oh, of course it is.

0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 1>And I didn't mean that snarkily, like there are some

0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 1>very nice Fearmonts.

0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Sure you said that because they're a huge sponsor stuff.

0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 2>Should know they're not, are they?

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's like, why am I not getting

0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.480
<v Speaker 1>any free juice there? So at the time it was

0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 1>like the nicest hotel in North America. And they saw

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.199
<v Speaker 1>an ad in the local paper from doctor Hazard and

0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.440
<v Speaker 1>I guess we can call her a doctor but mentally

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 1>easing scare quotes, and they wrote her a letter and said, Hey,

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.560
<v Speaker 1>we're two sisters. We'd like to visit Wilderness Heights and

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:27.920
<v Speaker 1>we're coming to Seattle.

0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Nice. I think that's a great place to leave off

0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:31.240
<v Speaker 2>for an.

0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.640
<v Speaker 1>Ad break, coming to Seattle. What could be better?

0:13:35.720 --> 0:14:01.679
<v Speaker 2>Not much? Man, all right, we'll be right back. So

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.680
<v Speaker 2>before we get back to Claire and Dora and Linda Hazard,

0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.800
<v Speaker 2>we should probably make like a little side note here that, like,

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:16.480
<v Speaker 2>although Linda Hazard's stuff was bizarre like this, the extremes

0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.840
<v Speaker 2>she took it to, like, alternative medicine was still very

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.400
<v Speaker 2>much a thing. We did that whole episode on the

0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.920
<v Speaker 2>Flexner Report which basically said from now on in the

0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 2>United States and Europe, it's just like medical science. That's it.

0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Anything outside of that is cuckoo quackery and should be

0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 2>persecuted and run out of town on a rail essentially.

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.400
<v Speaker 2>And that so this was the time when you could

0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.360
<v Speaker 2>still be an alternative medicine practitioner. You could still be

0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.560
<v Speaker 2>an out and out quack. Yeah, And there was no

0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.960
<v Speaker 2>law against that yet. And this was definitely the like

0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the gray area that Linda Hazard fell in.

0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think her case, and especially the case

0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 1>with these two sisters in particular. Like, it wasn't the

0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.120
<v Speaker 1>leading reason, but it was definitely evidence as they move

0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.360
<v Speaker 1>forward with stuff like the Flexner report of like changes

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.360
<v Speaker 1>is needed. Their fasting had been around for a long

0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:20.120
<v Speaker 1>long time. Obviously, people fasted in the Bible, people fasted

0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.800
<v Speaker 1>in ancient Greece. I think Hippocrates and Pythagoras both were

0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.880
<v Speaker 1>into fasting, So that was not a new thing. Fasting

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.800
<v Speaker 1>is still a thing, and detoxes and cleanses, and you know,

0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.160
<v Speaker 1>we've done our fair share of podcasting on that kind

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.560
<v Speaker 1>of stuff, So none of this is new or old.

0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:42.880
<v Speaker 2>No, we did one on courses too. I just remembered,

0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 2>that's right. Yeah. One of the other things that is

0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:51.280
<v Speaker 2>definitely old about this is that whole idea of undigested

0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:56.080
<v Speaker 2>food being the source of all disease. That's ir vedic

0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:01.760
<v Speaker 2>in nature too. Ancient Asian Indian medic goal practice basically

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.160
<v Speaker 2>says if you have underjust of food or build up

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.720
<v Speaker 2>a poop or whatever in your system, all disease emanates

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 2>from that. So even doctor Edward Dewey was not exactly

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 2>like groundbreaking with that idea.

0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and people are like it all comes from the

0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 1>poop and They're like, have you smelled the stuff? There's

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:21.560
<v Speaker 1>no way that's good.

0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 2>It's gee ross.

0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 1>What if poop not you know, I guess we're going there.

0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm going there. Okay, what if poop didn't smell like

0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 1>that at all? And I'm not saying, oh, what if

0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 1>it smelled like, you know, something great? Like what if

0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 1>it just literally had no odor and that was it?

0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.080
<v Speaker 1>Like would the world be really a better place? H

0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 1>I say, yes, Yeah.

0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 2>I guess sure. I guess I don't smell enough poop

0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.840
<v Speaker 2>in any given day that it really ruins the world

0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:52.280
<v Speaker 2>for me.

0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean you have your outhouse.

0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Sure, but I see yourself. Yeah.

0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.640
<v Speaker 1>I was just curious at like on the like the

0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:05.119
<v Speaker 1>divorce rate, like what all would change air airports? Airports happens?

0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.399
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yes, airports. That's a really good point right there.

0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that's the worst.

0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it really is really bad. Like that's a good

0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.119
<v Speaker 2>reason not to fly before like ten am.

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Like it's one thing to be married to somebody, but

0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.840
<v Speaker 1>you don't want to smell the poop of twelve strangers.

0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.960
<v Speaker 2>No, no you don't. That's why no one should poop

0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.960
<v Speaker 2>in public bathrooms. They shouldn't even have toilets in there,

0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:28.520
<v Speaker 2>all urinals all the time.

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they should have urals, urinals and signs that say

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:32.400
<v Speaker 1>hold it.

0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.919
<v Speaker 2>Right, just hold it, have a poop, go to jail.

0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 1>All right. So sorry to get to go off on

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 1>a tangent there about poop. I was just kind of

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 1>I've never done that particular thought experiment.

0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well I liked it all right.

0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.919
<v Speaker 1>So she had her her big, big book. I mean,

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:53.520
<v Speaker 1>she had eleven of them, but I feel like the one,

0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.159
<v Speaker 1>as far as this goes, this most relevant is the

0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.120
<v Speaker 1>one from nineteen oh eight. It's called Fasting for the

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.160
<v Speaker 1>Cure of Disease, ease, and that's where she laid out,

0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, the program which is just those three things really,

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, fast to get beaten on and get those

0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.520
<v Speaker 1>as Josh says, m enema. And the first person to

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.320
<v Speaker 1>die from this treatment. She wrote the book after six

0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 1>years after this, which is pretty disturbing. But in nineteen

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.760
<v Speaker 1>oh two at her Minneapolis practice, there was a woman

0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 1>who was partially paralyzed, and very sadly, she died on

0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.359
<v Speaker 1>day thirty seven of a forty day fast and Linda Hazzard,

0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.719
<v Speaker 1>as the doctor said, cause of death paralysis.

0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that would be a recurring theme, as we'll see, right,

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 2>because she also she was declaring the cause of death

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.800
<v Speaker 2>for her patients as a physician, even though she wasn't

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:51.600
<v Speaker 2>really a physician. And I guess still even at this time,

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.840
<v Speaker 2>under circumstances like this, the local coroner would still take

0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.720
<v Speaker 2>a look at any dead body. Saw the body of

0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.160
<v Speaker 2>this woman, Gertrude Jon and was like, I don't know

0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.680
<v Speaker 2>that this was paralysis that did this, because she's pretty emaciated.

0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Let's perform an autopsy and see what happens. Looked inside

0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.400
<v Speaker 2>of poor Gertrude Young and said, yep, she died of starvation,

0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:15.720
<v Speaker 2>just as I suspected.

0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.200
<v Speaker 1>That's right. And as we'll see later, Linda Hazard didn't

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 1>think that was a viable way of dying. She's basically like,

0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.600
<v Speaker 1>you can't starve some of the death. It's not possible, right,

0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.080
<v Speaker 1>So she's wrong about that. But she did not have

0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.680
<v Speaker 1>a medical license, so she could not be like brought

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.320
<v Speaker 1>up on charges or anything. It's she was telling this

0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.720
<v Speaker 1>woman to fast, and the woman was fasting. She didn't

0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.520
<v Speaker 1>have her, you know, locked up and chained to a

0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.480
<v Speaker 1>bed or anything like that. She was just following the

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:45.760
<v Speaker 1>advice of the wrong.

0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Person exactly, and yeah, Linda Hazard could just like shrug

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.960
<v Speaker 2>and be like, you know, what are you gonna do? Yeah,

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:58.240
<v Speaker 2>this was like years after when she and her husband

0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Samuel moved to Seattle and started their practice together. So

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.840
<v Speaker 2>that's not why she moved. This was just the first

0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.600
<v Speaker 2>body in her long body count essentially.

0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean bodies. You know, people started dying at

0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:18.120
<v Speaker 1>her practice in Washington as well. And there in Washington

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.679
<v Speaker 1>at the time, you could be grandfathered in as far

0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.160
<v Speaker 1>as what kind of alternative medicine you were practicing, so

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.320
<v Speaker 1>she was kind of all good there. In nineteen oh

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.920
<v Speaker 1>seven is when she started treating patients in Washington, and

0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, right away, again this wasn't like the weirdest

0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.480
<v Speaker 1>stuff at the time, so she had some of the

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:40.959
<v Speaker 1>elite of Washington, like state legislators coming there. It was

0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.160
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't like that weird lady in the woods that's

0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.560
<v Speaker 1>killing people. It was you know, it was sort of

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.399
<v Speaker 1>of the fashion of the day in some ways.

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Also, there was a real deference to her from

0:20:53.520 --> 0:21:00.240
<v Speaker 2>the local population, which were typically Swedish immigrants who were

0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.879
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily formally educated. They didn't have a lot of money.

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.000
<v Speaker 2>So this was like she made a lot of money,

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.840
<v Speaker 2>we should say, multiple times throughout her career, so she

0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.080
<v Speaker 2>was wealthy. She had a lot of land. She was

0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.639
<v Speaker 2>a doctor, so she said, she was much more highly

0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.959
<v Speaker 2>educated than anyone else in the area that they knew.

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 2>So she was popular and people just kind of respected

0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.960
<v Speaker 2>her in this area too. So in addition to these

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.919
<v Speaker 2>wealthy and kind of elite you know, alternative medicine file

0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:40.399
<v Speaker 2>patrons and customers, just the local people who had nothing

0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.520
<v Speaker 2>to do with this still thought fairly highly of her too.

0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, even though people were dying. I think

0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.600
<v Speaker 1>by the time the Williamson's sisters arrived in nineteen eleven,

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.120
<v Speaker 1>seven patients had died under her care, six from starvation

0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 1>what looked to be starvation. And what was also learned was,

0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.680
<v Speaker 1>like you said, she performed all the autopsies herself. And

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.159
<v Speaker 1>it was also revealed that the estates of these people

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.560
<v Speaker 1>were left to the sanatorium, So she was also taking

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.880
<v Speaker 1>their money, even though it was, you know, from the outside,

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:16.679
<v Speaker 1>under the guise of like they believed in her so

0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 1>much they wanted her practice to continue.

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly, and this is where it really becomes murdery.

0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, yeah, like the super nefarious.

0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Something else that was gross that I found was so

0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.560
<v Speaker 2>the Wilderness Heights was like a few like a handful

0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:38.680
<v Speaker 2>of primitive cabins and then her cottage, and her cottage

0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.720
<v Speaker 2>still stood until like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen.

0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:42.399
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow.

0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:46.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you could go into her cottage and it

0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.880
<v Speaker 2>was still there was still furnishings in it and including

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.920
<v Speaker 2>her bathtub, and the bathtub of her cottage is where

0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:53.720
<v Speaker 2>she was performing her autopsies.

0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:54.360
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:56.800
<v Speaker 2>So that to me kind of like really gets across

0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:00.399
<v Speaker 2>like this is not like a super polished outfit, you

0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:00.960
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean?

0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, for sure.

0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:04.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's important to keep in mind too.

0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.280
<v Speaker 2>She basically built some rough fused cabins in the woods

0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 2>in Washington and called this like her sanitarium.

0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And this is by the way in Alala Woods, Washington.

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so close to Walla Walla, so close.

0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:24.080
<v Speaker 1>So Claire and Dora get there in February of nineteen

0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.600
<v Speaker 1>eleven and she was like, hey, we're not going to

0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.359
<v Speaker 1>stay here in Wilderness Heights. I'm not sure why she

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:31.879
<v Speaker 1>did this. I have a feeling that she knew that

0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:35.159
<v Speaker 1>she had some big fish on the line. So she

0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:39.879
<v Speaker 1>took them to Seattle instead, and she basically lied to

0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:44.120
<v Speaker 1>them and said that the Alala Woods Retreat wasn't completed yet,

0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.800
<v Speaker 1>even though I think it clearly was. And so they

0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:49.720
<v Speaker 1>they put them up in some apartments in downtown Seattle,

0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:55.720
<v Speaker 1>started their fasting treatment and the vigorous massage, and they

0:23:55.720 --> 0:24:00.480
<v Speaker 1>were eating two cups of vegetable broth sounds like basically

0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:02.080
<v Speaker 1>canned tomato juice a day.

0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I also saw I think Dora later said that they

0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:10.680
<v Speaker 2>were made from asparagus tips, spinach, and lettuce. A broth

0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:15.080
<v Speaker 2>made from that, yeah, veggie broth. Yeah, so not anything

0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.200
<v Speaker 2>that you could possibly even remotely get full off of yet,

0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:21.199
<v Speaker 2>like you said, I think a cup twice a day, Yeah,

0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.280
<v Speaker 2>that's just yeah, So you're going to lose weight very quickly.

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.240
<v Speaker 2>And this was like forty plus days of fasting. That

0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:32.560
<v Speaker 2>hazard was prescribing to her patients, right, And so I

0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 2>think both of the Williamson sisters made it to fifty

0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:42.480
<v Speaker 2>days before they were transferred to Wilderness Heights. They didn't walk,

0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>they were on stretchers. That's how they got to Wilderness

0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Heights from their apartments in downtown Seattle.

0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:51.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I mean from what I can tell. They

0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:55.000
<v Speaker 1>weren't screaming on the way like get me help. Like

0:24:56.280 --> 0:24:59.239
<v Speaker 1>it feels like they were either all in still on

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.760
<v Speaker 1>this or just so out of it at this point

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:04.440
<v Speaker 1>they didn't know any better, you know.

0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:08.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes, or they were asking for help, but they were

0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:11.600
<v Speaker 2>asking for it, like Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle,

0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:16.560
<v Speaker 2>where they were like, get help.

0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:18.680
<v Speaker 1>It was pretty good, Stevie.

0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Thanks.

0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:21.119
<v Speaker 1>Did you watch the reboot of that?

0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:25.840
<v Speaker 2>No reboot. I can't give me one reboot that was

0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:28.040
<v Speaker 2>as good as the original or even close.

0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:32.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I can't bring any reboots to mine at all,

0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:34.880
<v Speaker 1>so I don't know. But you're you're pretty much right,

0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:37.679
<v Speaker 1>like even the great Kids in the Hall, Like it

0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:41.200
<v Speaker 1>was just okay, right. I kind of want to watch

0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:43.159
<v Speaker 1>the Malcolm in the Middle one though, Oh oh, you

0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:45.480
<v Speaker 1>haven't seen it either, No, but I heard it was

0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:45.919
<v Speaker 1>pretty good.

0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:50.479
<v Speaker 2>Actually all right, But is Frankie Munis has his voice changed?

0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 1>No, it's exactly the same. And so it was what's

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:54.720
<v Speaker 1>his face?

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:58.560
<v Speaker 2>What was his name, Stevie, Stevie, Yeah.

0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I couldn't remember. I just remember Cranston was so great.

0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and his daughter's great too. We've said it before.

0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:07.439
<v Speaker 2>We'll say it again on the Pit. Doctor mel Is

0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Brian Cranston's daughter, and she does it great to him.

0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:12.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think we said that live on stage. I

0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:15.280
<v Speaker 1>don't think the listening public knows that you are now

0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:15.800
<v Speaker 1>on the pit.

0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:20.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but apparently it just stopped, like they just stopped

0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:23.760
<v Speaker 2>putting out episodes. But that last episode does not end

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:27.400
<v Speaker 2>in any way that anyone would ever end the season

0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:32.399
<v Speaker 2>of TV. Oh you think, Yeah, Like, Noah Wiley didn't

0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 2>leave yet. I don't even think as Buddy fully agreed

0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:40.399
<v Speaker 2>to getting the treatment he's supposed to get. What's going

0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:44.560
<v Speaker 2>on with Ali? Sheemi? Like the last thing we saw

0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:46.719
<v Speaker 2>is she just kind of had a meltdown in her car.

0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:49.440
<v Speaker 2>There's just all the stuff's up in the air.

0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:51.919
<v Speaker 1>But oh, I think that was the purpose. I think

0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:53.840
<v Speaker 1>it just was cliffhanger after cliffhanger.

0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yes, I can get cliffhangers. But it's almost like

0:26:57.280 --> 0:27:00.200
<v Speaker 2>it just petered out rather than cut it, like they

0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:04.320
<v Speaker 2>just cut all right, disagree? All right, Well, I was

0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:06.399
<v Speaker 2>surprised that that was how they ended it.

0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:09.359
<v Speaker 1>We just spoiled some stuff, by the way.

0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, we should probably Well, we.

0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Didn't say anything huge. No Wiley didn't leave, big deal. Okay,

0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:17.560
<v Speaker 1>all right, does he ever leave?

0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:18.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:21.720
<v Speaker 1>That's what I just need to go, like, he's never

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:24.600
<v Speaker 1>he never leaves, he comes over, he overstays, is welcome.

0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:27.639
<v Speaker 1>Everyone's like, when's this guy gonna get on SMO and

0:27:27.720 --> 0:27:30.840
<v Speaker 1>drive out of Here's true? All right, I feel like

0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:32.439
<v Speaker 1>we're really off the rails now. We should take a

0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:35.080
<v Speaker 1>break and come back. Yes, yeah, all right, we'll be

0:27:35.160 --> 0:28:00.720
<v Speaker 1>right back all right where we left you. So, Noah

0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:04.879
<v Speaker 1>Wiley had not left yet the pit. No, I'm sorry.

0:28:06.119 --> 0:28:08.600
<v Speaker 1>We left the sisters in pretty bad condition. It was

0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:12.480
<v Speaker 1>about fifty days into their treatment. They were obviously in really,

0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:16.400
<v Speaker 1>really bad shape, having traveled by stretcher to Alaala Woods

0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:21.280
<v Speaker 1>and Claire died seventeen days after they got to the compound.

0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:24.560
<v Speaker 1>There in the forest. She and this is like very

0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:28.120
<v Speaker 1>triggering and super upsetting, so I'm issuing a warning here.

0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:31.360
<v Speaker 1>But she weighed less than fifty pounds when she passed,

0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.560
<v Speaker 1>and Hazard's own autopsy once again determined she died of

0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:39.080
<v Speaker 1>a liver disease that came from a childhood medical treatment

0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:43.160
<v Speaker 1>that caused her organs to shrink, and when her the

0:28:43.200 --> 0:28:47.080
<v Speaker 1>governess showed up, Margaret Conway, you know, finally arrived. She

0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:49.840
<v Speaker 1>told her that and she was like, I basically raised

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:53.240
<v Speaker 1>these kids and she didn't have any childhood medical treatment

0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:54.720
<v Speaker 1>that caused her organs to shrink.

0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:59.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we should just say that Margaret Conway, her governess,

0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:02.400
<v Speaker 2>who we talked about earlier, she got a cable from

0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:04.920
<v Speaker 2>one of them. I can't remember if it was Dora

0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:05.520
<v Speaker 2>or Claire.

0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Probably Dora, I think it was Dora.

0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it just basically saying like, please come, here's the

0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:11.960
<v Speaker 2>ship you want to take, here's where we are. Just

0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 2>get here. And Margaret Conway just dropped everything. And within

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:20.480
<v Speaker 2>a month she had traveled from Australia to Seattle. That's

0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:21.320
<v Speaker 2>how long it took.

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I mean she was welcomed. I mean Samuel

0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:27.440
<v Speaker 1>met her in Seattle and said, all right, let's get

0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 1>on the train. We're going to show you this operation.

0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:32.120
<v Speaker 1>Like it's pretty sad what's happening, but like we have

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:37.400
<v Speaker 1>a top notch practice here. And they brought her to

0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:41.720
<v Speaker 1>the mortuary to see Claire and she was like, that's

0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:45.240
<v Speaker 1>not Claire, whoever this body is. And I get the

0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:47.800
<v Speaker 1>impression that it wasn't like she so emaciated. I didn't

0:29:47.800 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 1>recognize her like I think they tried to pull the

0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:50.400
<v Speaker 1>fast one on her.

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was rumors, I guess that the local mortuary

0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 2>was in cahoots with the Hazards and that they would

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 2>switch out bodies that weren't amazing heated who had nothing

0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:04.680
<v Speaker 2>to do with Wilderness Heights. Yeah, the emaciated bodies of

0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 2>their victims so that family wouldn't be like, I think

0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:14.240
<v Speaker 2>you starved my mom to death. Right, So Margaret Conway

0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:16.720
<v Speaker 2>was not in any way, shape or form put off

0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:22.160
<v Speaker 2>by Samuel Hazzard's charm or Linda Hazard's authority, like she

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.720
<v Speaker 2>realized like that they had killed Claire. One of the

0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:30.280
<v Speaker 2>dead giveaways was that Linda Hazard was wearing one of

0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Claire's robes and her favorite hat when she received Margaret

0:30:35.120 --> 0:30:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Conway at the at the Wilderness Heights at their cottage,

0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and that I think immediately rubbed Margaret Conway the wrong way.

0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.880
<v Speaker 2>And she was like, I give me Dora. I'm taking

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Dora home and Linda and Samuel said not so fast.

0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, while Dora was in the same shape, she weighed

0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:57.880
<v Speaker 1>about fifty pounds, was barely alive at this point, and

0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:00.880
<v Speaker 1>so yeah, she asked for and the hazards are like,

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:04.960
<v Speaker 1>actually where the executor of her estate. She is under

0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:10.480
<v Speaker 1>our legal guardianship forever, and my husband Samuel has power

0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 1>of attorney over all of her in the family's financial matters.

0:31:14.960 --> 0:31:17.680
<v Speaker 1>And not only that is you've got a medical bill

0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:19.640
<v Speaker 1>you need to pay. You owe us two grand.

0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:21.360
<v Speaker 2>It's about seventy k today.

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Margaret Conway is like, well, I don't have seventy grand.

0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:28.680
<v Speaker 2>I have no idea how to overturn a legal guardianship.

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:33.000
<v Speaker 2>But it just so happened that Claire and Dora's uncle,

0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:37.640
<v Speaker 2>John Herbert, was just up in Portland, not very far away,

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:42.760
<v Speaker 2>even back in nineteen eleven, nineteen ten, down in Portland. Yeah,

0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:47.320
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, you're sorry. Go to be right, No, one

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:51.200
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent, it is I have which show we did backwards?

0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:55.480
<v Speaker 2>Usually we do Seattle first and then Portland. Right, yeah, okay,

0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:58.680
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, John Herbert was down in Portland, and Margaret

0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Conway got in touch with him as I need your help,

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>like these Claire's been killed and Dora was in big trouble,

0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:08.800
<v Speaker 2>She's about to die, and these two hucksters have like

0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:13.040
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo going on. And John

0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:15.400
<v Speaker 2>Herbert got involved. He's like, I'm a man and this

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:18.080
<v Speaker 2>is the Edwardian era. So everybody listened to me, and

0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:19.640
<v Speaker 2>that's when things started moving.

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, Samuel Hazard did produce a document. It

0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.840
<v Speaker 1>was a typewritten statement that he said, Claire, you know,

0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:29.960
<v Speaker 1>dictated this to us on her deathbed, but she didn't

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:31.440
<v Speaker 1>sign it because she was too weak to sign it.

0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Because of the whole you know, liver issue. I said

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.600
<v Speaker 1>to my relatives and friends, I'm writing the statement to

0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:39.960
<v Speaker 1>say that Dora and I entered on this course of

0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:45.080
<v Speaker 1>treatment only after thorough investigation, that we have continued it voluntarily,

0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:47.680
<v Speaker 1>and that if death occurs, I believe that it is

0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:52.080
<v Speaker 1>inevitable that it would have come in any circumstances, which

0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:55.480
<v Speaker 1>is like, I mean, it sounds like a child wrote

0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 1>that to get out of being in trouble, you.

0:32:57.120 --> 0:33:00.800
<v Speaker 2>Know, right exactly. So, I mean, just that last line

0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 2>about if she dies it was inevitable anyway, just so

0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:10.320
<v Speaker 2>smacks of Linda Hazard's philosophy that you can't starve to death. Yeah,

0:33:09.840 --> 0:33:14.880
<v Speaker 2>it was just very clearly fake. So John Herbert gets involved.

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Thanks to Margaret Conway, they find get this. The vice

0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:23.520
<v Speaker 2>counsel of the British embassy in Tacoma. Let all that

0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:28.440
<v Speaker 2>sink in for a second. They get them involved, and

0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:33.960
<v Speaker 2>they get the guardianship overturned. Herbert gets the two thousand

0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:37.520
<v Speaker 2>dollars unpaid bill negotiated down to one thousand dollars and

0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 2>essentially pays a ransom for Door to be released. And

0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 2>in the meantime, once he has Dora back, he starts

0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:48.880
<v Speaker 2>looking into some of these other patients and finds like

0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Dora and Claire were far from the only victims who

0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:56.160
<v Speaker 2>were essentially had been exploited financially while they were out

0:33:56.160 --> 0:33:57.560
<v Speaker 2>of their minds from starvation.

0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:00.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. So it's, you know, just like the

0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:02.440
<v Speaker 1>movie scene is starting to sort of add up in

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:06.720
<v Speaker 1>his head, and he brings this evidence into the authorities

0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:11.919
<v Speaker 1>there in the county and they investigate obviously, and Linda

0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Hazard was arrested for murder for I think murder in

0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:19.320
<v Speaker 1>the first degree of Claire Williamson and for obvious financial fraud.

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:21.160
<v Speaker 1>And it was a you know, you said earlier, it

0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:24.600
<v Speaker 1>was sensational. It was a big deal, international press. You know,

0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:27.400
<v Speaker 1>first they had to find out where the Olala Woods

0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:30.320
<v Speaker 1>was and then they came there and started covering this case,

0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:33.879
<v Speaker 1>and she was known as the Starvation Doctor. I think

0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:39.040
<v Speaker 1>they started calling her place Starvation Heights instead.

0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Of what was it, Wilderness Heights.

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Wilderness Heights, Yes, it's pretty good one. And they

0:34:45.520 --> 0:34:47.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a lot of speculation flying around, like

0:34:47.760 --> 0:34:49.480
<v Speaker 1>you know that she had this hold over people, that

0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.080
<v Speaker 1>was rumors that she may have been hypnotizing them to

0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>keep them under her hold. But like you mentioned earlier,

0:34:55.840 --> 0:35:00.200
<v Speaker 1>there still are and certainly back then had people their

0:35:00.200 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 1>former patients or wealthy benefactors or other naturopaths that were like, hey,

0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:10.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, she's a woman practicing outside the box medicine

0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:12.640
<v Speaker 1>and that's why she's being prosecuted.

0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we should say that it actually took a lot

0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:21.359
<v Speaker 2>of leaning on the Kitsap County prosecutor where Wilderness Heights

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.920
<v Speaker 2>was located, to actually prosecute this crime, because again, she

0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:27.839
<v Speaker 2>had a lot of local support and there were a

0:35:27.840 --> 0:35:31.120
<v Speaker 2>lot of people who are like, she's being persecuted by

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:34.879
<v Speaker 2>these Brits who are like total out of towners, and

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:39.440
<v Speaker 2>they're being supported by vocal people from the American Medical

0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:45.120
<v Speaker 2>Association who want only doctors to practice their way and

0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:49.560
<v Speaker 2>basically this woman's being persecuted that as a witch essentially,

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:52.400
<v Speaker 2>so she did have a lot of supporters, but she

0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:57.040
<v Speaker 2>had a lot of detractors too. It seems like, on balance,

0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:00.200
<v Speaker 2>at least as far as the press is concerned, she

0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:06.360
<v Speaker 2>was generally viewed as a murderer and a grifter. I guess,

0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:08.840
<v Speaker 2>a grifting murderer, terrible combination.

0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think the first thing she said was this,

0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:15.000
<v Speaker 1>the first guy that came at me was an ambassador

0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 1>stationed in Tacoma, Tacoma. Everyone does that sound remotely believable?

0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:22.200
<v Speaker 2>Right? It does sound kind of made up.

0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:29.879
<v Speaker 1>So January fifteenth, nineteen twelve, the trial starts. They lay

0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:32.719
<v Speaker 1>out their evidence basically, which was all pretty obvious, like

0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:35.640
<v Speaker 1>she's trying to fleece these people of money when they

0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:39.120
<v Speaker 1>have no control over their own senses. And I think

0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:41.520
<v Speaker 1>I had about one hundred people testify for the prosecution.

0:36:41.760 --> 0:36:44.759
<v Speaker 1>There were lots of doctors, you know, being paraded up

0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:48.400
<v Speaker 1>there as expert witnesses. And Dora even took the stand

0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:54.280
<v Speaker 1>and talked about this scene basically near the end where

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:59.320
<v Speaker 1>she was bedside and Claire is trying to whisper Stevie

0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:04.320
<v Speaker 1>style something to Dora like her sister as she's passing essentially,

0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:09.480
<v Speaker 1>and every time she tried to speak miss Hazard or

0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:12.440
<v Speaker 1>missus Hazzard as as she called him, she kept talking

0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:14.600
<v Speaker 1>and I couldn't hear. Like she would lean in and

0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:18.200
<v Speaker 1>she'd say Dory, and she would interrupt and say how

0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:20.760
<v Speaker 1>did you spell that name again, and like she would

0:37:20.800 --> 0:37:23.360
<v Speaker 1>not let her. I mean, this is one of the

0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:25.840
<v Speaker 1>most upsetting parts. Like she wouldn't even let her sister

0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:28.839
<v Speaker 1>perhaps even say goodbye. Who knows what she was trying

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:29.120
<v Speaker 1>to say.

0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:35.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and apparently also, I guess doctor Hazard cut in

0:37:35.160 --> 0:37:36.960
<v Speaker 2>and was like, I'm going to give Claire one of

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:40.000
<v Speaker 2>my famous massagists and pressed down so hard that Claire

0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:44.080
<v Speaker 2>lost consciousness. And shortly after that, Dora was told that

0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Claire had died. And so, yeah, those probably would have

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:51.560
<v Speaker 2>been her last words to her that Linda Hazzard basically

0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:52.760
<v Speaker 2>interrupted on purpose.

0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:56.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think she actually died, Dora. I found out

0:37:56.520 --> 0:37:59.000
<v Speaker 1>she died the next morning, so she didn't get that chance.

0:37:59.080 --> 0:38:03.120
<v Speaker 1>Later either, the defensive course comes in and said that

0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:07.360
<v Speaker 1>you know it wasn't the treatment. She didn't die of starvation.

0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:11.719
<v Speaker 1>That's when Linda Hazard very famously says, you know, it's

0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:15.719
<v Speaker 1>not possible to starve someone to death. And you know,

0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Trot's out her book in the middle of court and

0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:21.359
<v Speaker 1>says here, read this, and this is the quote from

0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the book. Death in the fast never results from deprivation

0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:29.120
<v Speaker 1>of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality sapped

0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:32.759
<v Speaker 1>to the last degree by organic imperfection. Right. I mean,

0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:36.480
<v Speaker 1>that's quackery, if like nineteenth century quackery, if I've ever

0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:37.520
<v Speaker 1>heard it, you know for sure.

0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:40.439
<v Speaker 2>But I mean it is technically true, like you die

0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:44.600
<v Speaker 2>from your organs failing, but your organs get their vitality

0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:48.399
<v Speaker 2>from the food that you're not getting. So it's kind

0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:52.960
<v Speaker 2>of like potato potato essentially. Yes, it is. It's a

0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty glib workaround, I guess. But she stood by that.

0:38:57.040 --> 0:38:59.279
<v Speaker 2>She was like, now, you can't die from starvation. That's

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:02.839
<v Speaker 2>why she said. And Claire died from liver disease. That's

0:39:02.840 --> 0:39:06.120
<v Speaker 2>why her first patient, Gertrude Young, a first patient to die,

0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.600
<v Speaker 2>she died from paralysis. It's whatever was wrong with you

0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:13.880
<v Speaker 2>ahead of time, that's what killed you, not starvation. I

0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:18.360
<v Speaker 2>don't know if Linda Hazard truly believed that there's actually

0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:20.440
<v Speaker 2>some evidence at the very end that we'll see, but

0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:28.040
<v Speaker 2>that's just so dumb that and I have the impression

0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 2>that Linda Hazard was not a dumb person at all.

0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:33.440
<v Speaker 2>I just can't believe that she believed that.

0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:38.840
<v Speaker 1>I feel like, given the financial piece, I feel like

0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:41.560
<v Speaker 1>she knew what she was doing. Okay, that's just my

0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:42.560
<v Speaker 1>take on it.

0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Right. So again, there were some supporters who are like, hey,

0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:50.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, like she's being persecuted, and the jury said,

0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:53.160
<v Speaker 2>you know what, we're going to split the middle here.

0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:57.520
<v Speaker 2>We're going to find her guilty on a charge of

0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:03.000
<v Speaker 2>manslaughter not murder, so everybody can be unhappy.

0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, basically, she was sentenced to two to twenty hard

0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:10.400
<v Speaker 1>labor at Walla Walla Penitentiaria.

0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:14.359
<v Speaker 1>And that wasn't it though, because she appealed the case

0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:16.480
<v Speaker 1>and appealed it and appealed it all the way up

0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:19.280
<v Speaker 1>to the United States or was it the state Supreme Court?

0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:21.239
<v Speaker 2>No, the US Supreme Court.

0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:24.160
<v Speaker 1>From what I am seen, the US Supreme Court took

0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:27.719
<v Speaker 1>about eighteen months to get there, and you know, she

0:40:27.760 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 1>had supporter sending in letters the whole time saying to

0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:34.480
<v Speaker 1>release her. The state of Washington did revoke her license

0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:39.000
<v Speaker 1>to practice medicine, but she did continue to practice two

0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:43.040
<v Speaker 1>more deaths happened after Claire Williamson, and then she finally

0:40:43.120 --> 0:40:46.719
<v Speaker 1>goes to prison, eventually at Wallawalla.

0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:49.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so while she's appealing and is out and about

0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:54.120
<v Speaker 2>on bail, two more people die. She kills two more people.

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:57.719
<v Speaker 2>That's just crazy. She finally gets to Walla Walla, like

0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:00.600
<v Speaker 2>you said, and that two to twenty years. It's what's

0:41:00.600 --> 0:41:03.359
<v Speaker 2>known as an indeterminate sentence, like you have to serve

0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:05.399
<v Speaker 2>at least a minimum, but you're not going to serve

0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:08.680
<v Speaker 2>beyond twenty right. So she was in there for I

0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:13.120
<v Speaker 2>think less than two years before she was paroled. She

0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:18.279
<v Speaker 2>very famously knitted ponchos for the other inmates. And when

0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:20.759
<v Speaker 2>she did get out, I think within six months she

0:41:20.800 --> 0:41:23.120
<v Speaker 2>had been pardoned by the governor of Washington.

0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:26.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, it's kind of hard to get

0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:29.319
<v Speaker 1>super accurate information for this old time stuff, but I

0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:31.520
<v Speaker 1>did see in the Washington archives there was a stipulation

0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:33.680
<v Speaker 1>that she had to leave the country if they were

0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:36.360
<v Speaker 1>going to let her out. So, regardless of whether or

0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:39.719
<v Speaker 1>not that's true, she did leave the country. We'll get

0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:42.080
<v Speaker 1>to that in a second. Dora also left the country.

0:41:42.120 --> 0:41:46.320
<v Speaker 1>She went back to England and settled down in Gloucester

0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.600
<v Speaker 1>and you know, lived sounds like a pretty great full

0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:52.000
<v Speaker 1>life after that. She got married in nineteen fourteen to

0:41:52.120 --> 0:41:57.200
<v Speaker 1>Reverend Wyndham Allen Chaplin and lived to be seventy one

0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:00.800
<v Speaker 1>years old. Died in nineteen forty five. So she fully

0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:05.040
<v Speaker 1>recovered from her quote unquote treatment, right, and Linda Hazard

0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:08.480
<v Speaker 1>went to New Zealand to Hawker Wares.

0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and was very well received there during the trial.

0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:17.680
<v Speaker 2>One of her vocal supporters was the Sydney Morning Herald,

0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I think, or at least some columnists in there. And

0:42:20.560 --> 0:42:22.959
<v Speaker 2>she made a ton of money again when she showed

0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:25.399
<v Speaker 2>up in New Zealand, Like people just flocked to her

0:42:25.880 --> 0:42:30.359
<v Speaker 2>for her treatment. And I think she long said like, hey, yeah,

0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:33.759
<v Speaker 2>fifteen people died in my care from the fasting, but

0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:37.880
<v Speaker 2>you know I've had hundreds of other patients, So is

0:42:37.920 --> 0:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>that really that bad? And people are like, yeah, it

0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:44.360
<v Speaker 2>is kind of bad. But also, you know, most doctors

0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:48.880
<v Speaker 2>who lose patients don't also fleece them of their estate.

0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Like that's really what took it. Like, murder is bad,

0:42:53.640 --> 0:42:56.520
<v Speaker 2>murder for profit is really bad.

0:42:57.640 --> 0:42:59.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree, we're going to rank murder.

0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Sure, let's just face it. Murder for profit is really bad.

0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:07.799
<v Speaker 1>I agree. I think the piece that you were talking about,

0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:10.080
<v Speaker 1>the one additional little piece of information that maybe she

0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:12.920
<v Speaker 1>did believe fully believe this stuff, yeh, is that she

0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:16.600
<v Speaker 1>herself died from her own treatment June twenty fourth, nineteen

0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:20.680
<v Speaker 1>thirty eight, self administering of fasting cure. So you know,

0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:24.680
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it was pure hocum in her mind.

0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:26.680
<v Speaker 1>I think she probably did believe it to a certain degree,

0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:29.880
<v Speaker 1>but I think she took it to extremes to fleece

0:43:29.960 --> 0:43:31.080
<v Speaker 1>people for sure.

0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's Linda Hazard.

0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:38.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. There's a book that a lots came from from

0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:41.960
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety seven. It's called Starvation Heights by a local

0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:45.960
<v Speaker 1>named Greg Olsen. So shout out to Greg Olsen in

0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:46.520
<v Speaker 1>that book.

0:43:46.880 --> 0:43:49.600
<v Speaker 2>If you can't find it at a sec or a

0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:52.040
<v Speaker 2>third g, I guess to the end of Greg Olsen's

0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:53.080
<v Speaker 2>name and it should.

0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:55.799
<v Speaker 1>Come up that was it, g R e Gg.

0:43:56.080 --> 0:43:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, probably won't come up on a search that's just

0:43:58.760 --> 0:44:02.640
<v Speaker 2>g R. E g in Starvation Heights nineteen ninety seven,

0:44:03.040 --> 0:44:05.920
<v Speaker 2>but if you add that extra ge, it will definitely

0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:06.399
<v Speaker 2>come up.

0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And if you just google greg Olsen, you'll probably

0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:11.320
<v Speaker 1>come up with the Atlanta Braves Catcher from the nineteen

0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:12.239
<v Speaker 1>nineties or.

0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Early about him. Yeah, he was a catcher. Huh yeah, Okay,

0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:19.760
<v Speaker 2>you got anything else about Greg Olsen, whether you're talking

0:44:19.760 --> 0:44:21.080
<v Speaker 2>about the author or the catcher.

0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.720
<v Speaker 1>I know he was not a belly scratcher.

0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:27.800
<v Speaker 2>You belly itcher.

0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I think scratcher a picture, not a belly atcher. Catcher,

0:44:33.920 --> 0:44:34.720
<v Speaker 1>not a belly scratcher.

0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, I've never heard that second part. He just

0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:42.480
<v Speaker 2>blew my mind. Buddy. Well, since we started talking about

0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:45.520
<v Speaker 2>braves pictures and childhood rhymes, I think it's time for

0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:46.320
<v Speaker 2>listener mail.

0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:51.719
<v Speaker 1>That's right. This is from Daniel. Hey, guys, love the

0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:54.480
<v Speaker 1>episode of Maple Syrup and all your episodes. You want

0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:58.200
<v Speaker 1>to let you know something similar In Australia, there's a

0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:03.279
<v Speaker 1>tree called the side agum or the eucalytus gunny nice,

0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:06.040
<v Speaker 1>and it produces a similar sweet sap. Guys. I couldn't

0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:09.040
<v Speaker 1>find any evidence of it being eaten as is, but

0:45:09.080 --> 0:45:13.520
<v Speaker 1>the local Paalawa people of Tasmania let it naturally ferment

0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:18.160
<v Speaker 1>to turn it into a cider like drink called Why Elena.

0:45:19.800 --> 0:45:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Of course, the tree is now incredibly rare, mostly confined

0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:24.680
<v Speaker 1>to one valley in Tasmania due to all the usual

0:45:24.680 --> 0:45:28.200
<v Speaker 1>good things I sent sarcasm there. As a white Australian,

0:45:28.239 --> 0:45:30.279
<v Speaker 1>I would love for you to do an episode on

0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:34.920
<v Speaker 1>bush Tucker. So much knowledge was lost due to colonization

0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:38.439
<v Speaker 1>and genocide, but there's still so much amazing information out there.

0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:39.880
<v Speaker 1>And that is from Daniel.

0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Nice. Daniel, thank you have not heard of cidergum tree

0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:49.040
<v Speaker 2>no or bushtucker no. So those are really great ideas

0:45:49.120 --> 0:45:52.319
<v Speaker 2>and thanks a lot for that. I cannot wait till

0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.440
<v Speaker 2>we get back to Australia so we can try that

0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:56.840
<v Speaker 2>cider bush Tucker?

0:45:56.920 --> 0:45:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Is it food apparently?

0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I think bush tucker is like knowledge. That was

0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:03.279
<v Speaker 2>the impression I have.

0:46:04.000 --> 0:46:05.799
<v Speaker 1>Well I just look it up and it's called it's

0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:07.839
<v Speaker 1>a food, So.

0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:11.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, thanks for that. He just gave me the rope,

0:46:11.640 --> 0:46:12.040
<v Speaker 2>didn't you.

0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean I tried to tell you those food.

0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I hadn't realized that you looked anything up. I

0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:20.600
<v Speaker 2>thought we always discussed before we look things up.

0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh sorry, click any click type type.

0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Here you go now. I know. If you want to

0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:28.560
<v Speaker 2>be like Daniel and send us a great email, we

0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:30.880
<v Speaker 2>would love that. You can send it off to Stuff

0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is

0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:38.879
<v Speaker 2>a production of iHeartRadio.

0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:42.600
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:45.680
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.