1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: here two. Jerry's here too, and I'm here too. That's 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 2: me Josh, And this is Stuff you Should. 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: Know, the We're All Three Feeling Weird edition. 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's strange. So yeah, I said that 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: I was just feeling kind of off today and you 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: said me too, and Jerry said me three. 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, what does that mean? 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I mean that is very That's 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: remarkable to me that all three of us, I mean, 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: we all have three different personalities. Ye, we don't like 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 2: you know, we don't live together, despite what most people think. 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, not anymore. 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: No, So I don't know what it is. Maybe something's 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: in retrograde and something's house or something like that. 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: That whole thing. Yeah, stuff you should Know is in retrograde, 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: whatever that means. 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: So, yeah, we'll do our best with this. I'll do 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: my best not to break out in tears. 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: No, I think would be okay. And big thanks to 22 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: Julia for helping us put together this episode on one 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: of the quacks of all quacks. I feel like we 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: have covered quite a few quacks over the years. 25 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one know isn't as bad as that one 26 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: guy that we did though, But she's up there for sure. 27 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: I mean I think she still has her supporters, Like 28 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: you can still buy her books online. Yeah, but most 29 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: people who are familiar with their case are like, she 30 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: was a serial killer, right, she just had a strange, 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: strange method of murder. 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, of bleeding people of their money. 33 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure and their life force. 34 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 35 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: As Toby Hooper might put it, that's right. So, yeah, 36 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: we're talking about a woman named Linda Burfield Perry Hazard. 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: There's at least two hyphens in there. Yeah, And she 38 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: was born in the nineteenth century, but was doing most 39 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: of her work in the late nineteenth early twentieth century. 40 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: And she was a person who was vehemently opposed, like 41 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: from what I could tell, like very seriously, like this 42 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: was her personal philosophy against what would be called modern 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: medicine today, but at the time was you know, just 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: starting out as we'll see. 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, she was a self described fasting specialist. 46 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 1: She had no medical degree. She did have wealthy patients 47 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: and I was about to say patrons, but I guess 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: they were patients and she said she was the only 49 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: fasting specialist in the world. You know, this was sort 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: of the time of the sanitarium sanatorium world, where you 51 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: could go off and practice some very questionable methods of 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: healing people. 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, like the Kellogg brothers in Battle Creek. 54 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, because you know that we had not in 55 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: the United States yet set up sort of rules around 56 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: the medical world at this point. 57 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: No, but it's coming. It's like right around that time, 58 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: and in part because of so much quackery that was 59 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: going on the same time. A lot of this stuff 60 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: is what you would call alternative medicine today or just 61 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: sensible stuff. Like the Kellogg brothers had a bunch of 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: weird stuff, and their whole jam was fairly weird, But 63 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: if you boiled everything down to what they were saying, 64 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: a lot of it was like diet and exercise, which 65 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: is just great advice today as far as health is concerned. 66 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: The problem is is like some people took this to 67 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: terrible extremes. Other people were peddling just like outright fake 68 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,839 Speaker 2: and dangerous medicines, Like yeah, there were the outliers were 69 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: so bad that they were ruining it for everybody who 70 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: actually had some legitimate stuff that they were doing, and 71 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: Linda Hazard was an outlier. Although again I think she 72 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: was a true believer in herself and her cure. 73 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But you know, to be clear, she 74 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: was not serving up bowls of granula. She was killing 75 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: people like I think fifteen patients starved to death under 76 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: her watch. Yes, and she would eventually go to trial 77 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: for the murder of one. 78 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a sensation in nineteen. 79 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: Twelve, a real sensation. 80 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: Let's talk about Linda Burfield Perry Hazard, who we're just 81 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: going to call Linda Hazard from here on out. But 82 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: she was born Linda Burfield in Minnesota in eighteen sixty seven, 83 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: as most people in eighteen sixty seven were born what 84 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: really rurally, and a lot of them in Minnesota. I 85 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: think something like ninety eight percent of births in eighteen 86 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: sixty seven took pres Minnesota. 87 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: That's incredible. 88 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 2: She actually had an experience, she said, she wrote again 89 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 2: a bunch of books, eleven by my count. Oh well, 90 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: and so she said, according to herself, that she had 91 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: been she had run into modern medicine as a child, 92 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: and this doctor had given her some pills blue mass 93 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: pills that are essentially mercury pills, and they were like 94 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: fairly regularly used at the time, but they did not 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: sit very well with her. 96 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: No, it made her really sick, like this again, this 97 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: is the day when they would, you know, a doctor 98 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: would say like, here, take this thing, because it'll cure 99 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: basically anything you have. And that's always the red flag, 100 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: even if it's not pure snake oil, the sort of 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: cure all thing. And it made it really sick, very memorably, 102 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: so like digestively for the most part. But after that 103 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: she was like, I'm done with doctors and I'm going 104 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: to eventually be my own doctor and be a doctor 105 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: to other people. She married a guy named Edwin Perry 106 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty six, had a couple of kids, got divorced, 107 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: and apparently I don't know if that led to her 108 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,119 Speaker 1: divorce when she just sort of went center of left 109 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: as far as her care goes. Do you think that 110 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: was it. 111 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: It's possible that was the impression. I have too, but 112 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. There's so much just random stuff that 113 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: people say about her that may or may not be true. 114 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: There's a lot of surmising. 115 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: I think it said center of left too, by the way, Yeah. 116 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 2: The thing is, Chuck, is everyone knew what you meant, 117 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: so that counts as communication. You know, don't be such 118 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: a prescriptionist. 119 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: That's right left of center. But she married Perry, got divorced, 120 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: and then fell into the care of doctor Edward Dewey, 121 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: who was a a faster. He preached fasting. He basically 122 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: said that, you know, every disease that we have comes 123 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: from habitual eating and excess. Basically like you're out eating 124 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: what your stomach and your gastric juices can handle. 125 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the sum total of Linda Hazard's whole thing. 126 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: I mean, she had a three prong approach, which was 127 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: intense fasting ama anema an I've read that that her 128 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: enemas lasted for hours sometimes. 129 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: I think that was also the title of your second LP, right, it. 130 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: Was my cover songs of William Shatner's cover r that's right, Yeah, 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: that's actually appropriate title for that. Or lobotomy lobotomy lobotomy. Yeah. 132 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: And then the other one was powerful massage that I 133 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: think calling a massage is fairly genous. Yes, she would 134 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: pound on her patients and apparently shall eliminate, eliminate because 135 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: again she's trying to get undigested food and poop that's 136 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: left over out of the body. And by fasting, you're 137 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: not introducing more food, You're letting the body rest while 138 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: getting rid of the food that's been undigested. That's the 139 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: source of all of your diseases. 140 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, like you drank the colon clints before your first 141 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: colonoscopy kind of empty. 142 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Oh, she would have loved that stuff. 143 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably, so. She did take a few nursing classes. 144 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: You know, we have to mention that I'm not trying 145 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: to legitimize he or anything, but she did take a 146 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: few osteopathic nursing classes. She opened a fasting therapy practice 147 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: in Minneapolis. There this is when she went by doctor 148 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: Linda Burfield Perry, even though she was divorced from Edwin Perry. 149 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, she said, like, come on in, I'll beat 150 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: on you. I will. I will not let you eat anything, 151 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: like really not at all. As we'll see, let's hold 152 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: on to that little factoid like how little these people 153 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: are eating. But she would find love again in nineteen 154 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: oh three, or find something in the way of a 155 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: swindler named Samuel Hazzard, who was a He would go 156 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: to jail for bigamy because he was already married and 157 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: I guess did not get divorced and also married Linda Burfield, 158 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: and so he went to jail for a couple of years. Yeah, 159 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: and then got out of jail and they're like, all right, 160 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: we're good to go. Let's go to Seattle. 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's where her practice really started. The two 162 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: of them together like really kind of established this. 163 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 1: Well. 164 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: They call it Wilderness Heights, and it was supposed to 165 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: be like a sanitarium or retreat where you went and 166 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: got this fasting cure. And it's just like you said, 167 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: you have to be wary of cures that cure everything, 168 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: and that was very much the case with her. She 169 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: apparently was saying like, once you go through the fasting 170 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: cure and you get all this crowd out, you're set 171 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: like everything from you can go have a kid and 172 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: have no pain during childbirth. You're not going to get 173 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: toothaches anymore. If you're an alcoholic, you won't be an 174 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 2: alcoholic anymore. If you're depressed, no more depression, Like it's 175 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 2: a cure all from her stance, that's how she basically 176 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: advertised it. I guess. 177 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So she's the main player here, Samuel. Her husband 178 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: is a little bit in the background, but he'll pop 179 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: up here and there when it comes to the financials. 180 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: And then our other couple of players are Claire and 181 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: Dora Williamson. They were English. They were daughters of an 182 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: English military person, Evelyn Dorothy. Her name was Dora. She 183 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: went by Dora Williamson. She was born in India in 184 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy three, and then her sister Enid Lily and 185 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: Claire Williamson was born in London in eighteen seventy seven. 186 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: And they were basically from teenagers on. Had no parents. 187 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: I think their father died after Claire was born and 188 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: then their mom died about sixteen years later. So they were, 189 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, they were orphaned teens who were really really 190 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: rich and really really tight, very close with one another, 191 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: and seemed to be like adventurous, not in a hurry 192 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: to get married, which is what you would think for 193 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: the time period to get married right away. They kind 194 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: of like to travel the world and go on adventures 195 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: and not follow the prescribed method. 196 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were independent women of the nineties, eighteen nineties, 197 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 2: that's right. So they also though they weren't entirely orphan, 198 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: I mean as far as like biological parents, maybe you're concerned, 199 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: But they had a governess who took care of them 200 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: as well, and I think kind of was part of 201 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: their life long before their mother died. But I have 202 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: the impression that she was like an additional mom or 203 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: an additional grandmother or something to them, Right, So. 204 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: I think that's how the richies do it, Yeah for sure. 205 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: So just keep that in mind that these women are 206 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: slightly outside of the norm. They have no problem with 207 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: being slightly outside of the norm. And they are very 208 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: interesting and interested people, are very curious, and one of 209 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: the things that they are focused on is natural health. 210 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: Like they're just super into that kind of thing. And 211 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: by the time they cross paths with Linda Hazzard, they've 212 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: done like all sorts of stuff, like any kind of 213 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: cure you can think of. They've traveled to some sanitarium 214 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: or some notorium, they've traveled to some health clinic, and 215 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: they've just done this whole thing. It's like basically what 216 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: they were interested. 217 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: In, Yeah, for sure. And you know, they did some 218 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of brave things at the time. For the time 219 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: period they were like, I don't want to wear corsets anymore. 220 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: They're super uncomfortable, and don't I think they're probably bad 221 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: for us. Sure, so they didn't wear corsets anymore. They 222 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: gave up meat. Eating meat was or being vegetarian, I 223 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: guess at the very least was a pretty weird thing 224 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: back then. So they were definitely following their own path. 225 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen ten they were in their thirties. 226 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: At this point they were in the beautiful Empress Hotel 227 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: in Victoria, British Columbia. 228 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: You sounded like you're an announcer for the Price's right. 229 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: It looks really nice. I mean it's still around from 230 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,479 Speaker 1: what I can tell, at least the pictures of modern. 231 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fairmunt now, Oh, of course it is. 232 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: And I didn't mean that snarkily, like there are some 233 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: very nice Fearmonts. 234 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: Sure you said that because they're a huge sponsor stuff. 235 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: Should know they're not, are they? 236 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: I don't think it's like, why am I not getting 237 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: any free juice there? So at the time it was 238 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: like the nicest hotel in North America. And they saw 239 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: an ad in the local paper from doctor Hazard and 240 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: I guess we can call her a doctor but mentally 241 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: easing scare quotes, and they wrote her a letter and said, Hey, 242 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: we're two sisters. We'd like to visit Wilderness Heights and 243 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: we're coming to Seattle. 244 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: Nice. I think that's a great place to leave off 245 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: for an. 246 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: Ad break, coming to Seattle. What could be better? 247 00:13:35,720 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 2: Not much? Man, all right, we'll be right back. So 248 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 2: before we get back to Claire and Dora and Linda Hazard, 249 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: we should probably make like a little side note here that, like, 250 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: although Linda Hazard's stuff was bizarre like this, the extremes 251 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: she took it to, like, alternative medicine was still very 252 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: much a thing. We did that whole episode on the 253 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: Flexner Report which basically said from now on in the 254 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: United States and Europe, it's just like medical science. That's it. 255 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: Anything outside of that is cuckoo quackery and should be 256 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: persecuted and run out of town on a rail essentially. 257 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: And that so this was the time when you could 258 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: still be an alternative medicine practitioner. You could still be 259 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: an out and out quack. Yeah, And there was no 260 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: law against that yet. And this was definitely the like 261 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: the gray area that Linda Hazard fell in. 262 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think her case, and especially the case 263 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: with these two sisters in particular. Like, it wasn't the 264 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: leading reason, but it was definitely evidence as they move 265 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: forward with stuff like the Flexner report of like changes 266 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: is needed. Their fasting had been around for a long 267 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: long time. Obviously, people fasted in the Bible, people fasted 268 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: in ancient Greece. I think Hippocrates and Pythagoras both were 269 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: into fasting, So that was not a new thing. Fasting 270 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: is still a thing, and detoxes and cleanses, and you know, 271 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: we've done our fair share of podcasting on that kind 272 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: of stuff, So none of this is new or old. 273 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: No, we did one on courses too. I just remembered, 274 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: that's right. Yeah. One of the other things that is 275 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: definitely old about this is that whole idea of undigested 276 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: food being the source of all disease. That's ir vedic 277 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: in nature too. Ancient Asian Indian medic goal practice basically 278 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: says if you have underjust of food or build up 279 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: a poop or whatever in your system, all disease emanates 280 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: from that. So even doctor Edward Dewey was not exactly 281 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: like groundbreaking with that idea. 282 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and people are like it all comes from the 283 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: poop and They're like, have you smelled the stuff? There's 284 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: no way that's good. 285 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: It's gee ross. 286 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: What if poop not you know, I guess we're going there. 287 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: I'm going there. Okay, what if poop didn't smell like 288 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: that at all? And I'm not saying, oh, what if 289 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: it smelled like, you know, something great? Like what if 290 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: it just literally had no odor and that was it? 291 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: Like would the world be really a better place? H 292 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: I say, yes, Yeah. 293 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: I guess sure. I guess I don't smell enough poop 294 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: in any given day that it really ruins the world 295 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: for me. 296 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: Well, I mean you have your outhouse. 297 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: Sure, but I see yourself. Yeah. 298 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: I was just curious at like on the like the 299 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: divorce rate, like what all would change air airports? Airports happens? 300 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: Okay, yes, airports. That's a really good point right there. 301 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: Yeah that's the worst. 302 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is really bad. Like that's a good 303 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: reason not to fly before like ten am. 304 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: Like it's one thing to be married to somebody, but 305 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: you don't want to smell the poop of twelve strangers. 306 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: No, no you don't. That's why no one should poop 307 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: in public bathrooms. They shouldn't even have toilets in there, 308 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: all urinals all the time. 309 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, they should have urals, urinals and signs that say 310 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: hold it. 311 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 2: Right, just hold it, have a poop, go to jail. 312 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: All right. So sorry to get to go off on 313 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: a tangent there about poop. I was just kind of 314 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: I've never done that particular thought experiment. 315 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: Okay, Well I liked it all right. 316 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: So she had her her big, big book. I mean, 317 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: she had eleven of them, but I feel like the one, 318 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: as far as this goes, this most relevant is the 319 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: one from nineteen oh eight. It's called Fasting for the 320 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: Cure of Disease, ease, and that's where she laid out, 321 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, the program which is just those three things really, 322 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, fast to get beaten on and get those 323 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: as Josh says, m enema. And the first person to 324 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: die from this treatment. She wrote the book after six 325 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: years after this, which is pretty disturbing. But in nineteen 326 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: oh two at her Minneapolis practice, there was a woman 327 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: who was partially paralyzed, and very sadly, she died on 328 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: day thirty seven of a forty day fast and Linda Hazzard, 329 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: as the doctor said, cause of death paralysis. 330 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be a recurring theme, as we'll see, right, 331 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: because she also she was declaring the cause of death 332 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: for her patients as a physician, even though she wasn't 333 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: really a physician. And I guess still even at this time, 334 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: under circumstances like this, the local coroner would still take 335 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: a look at any dead body. Saw the body of 336 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 2: this woman, Gertrude Jon and was like, I don't know 337 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: that this was paralysis that did this, because she's pretty emaciated. 338 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 2: Let's perform an autopsy and see what happens. Looked inside 339 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: of poor Gertrude Young and said, yep, she died of starvation, 340 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: just as I suspected. 341 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: That's right. And as we'll see later, Linda Hazard didn't 342 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: think that was a viable way of dying. She's basically like, 343 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: you can't starve some of the death. It's not possible, right, 344 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: So she's wrong about that. But she did not have 345 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: a medical license, so she could not be like brought 346 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: up on charges or anything. It's she was telling this 347 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: woman to fast, and the woman was fasting. She didn't 348 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: have her, you know, locked up and chained to a 349 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: bed or anything like that. She was just following the 350 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: advice of the wrong. 351 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: Person exactly, and yeah, Linda Hazard could just like shrug 352 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: and be like, you know, what are you gonna do? Yeah, 353 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: this was like years after when she and her husband 354 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: Samuel moved to Seattle and started their practice together. So 355 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: that's not why she moved. This was just the first 356 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: body in her long body count essentially. 357 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean bodies. You know, people started dying at 358 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: her practice in Washington as well. And there in Washington 359 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: at the time, you could be grandfathered in as far 360 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: as what kind of alternative medicine you were practicing, so 361 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: she was kind of all good there. In nineteen oh 362 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: seven is when she started treating patients in Washington, and 363 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, right away, again this wasn't like the weirdest 364 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: stuff at the time, so she had some of the 365 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: elite of Washington, like state legislators coming there. It was 366 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't like that weird lady in the woods that's 367 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: killing people. It was you know, it was sort of 368 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: of the fashion of the day in some ways. 369 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, there was a real deference to her from 370 00:20:53,520 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: the local population, which were typically Swedish immigrants who were 371 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 2: not necessarily formally educated. They didn't have a lot of money. 372 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: So this was like she made a lot of money, 373 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: we should say, multiple times throughout her career, so she 374 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: was wealthy. She had a lot of land. She was 375 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: a doctor, so she said, she was much more highly 376 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 2: educated than anyone else in the area that they knew. 377 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: So she was popular and people just kind of respected 378 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: her in this area too. So in addition to these 379 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 2: wealthy and kind of elite you know, alternative medicine file 380 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 2: patrons and customers, just the local people who had nothing 381 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: to do with this still thought fairly highly of her too. 382 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, even though people were dying. I think 383 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: by the time the Williamson's sisters arrived in nineteen eleven, 384 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: seven patients had died under her care, six from starvation 385 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: what looked to be starvation. And what was also learned was, 386 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: like you said, she performed all the autopsies herself. And 387 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: it was also revealed that the estates of these people 388 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: were left to the sanatorium, So she was also taking 389 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: their money, even though it was, you know, from the outside, 390 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: under the guise of like they believed in her so 391 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: much they wanted her practice to continue. 392 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, and this is where it really becomes murdery. 393 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, like the super nefarious. 394 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: Something else that was gross that I found was so 395 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: the Wilderness Heights was like a few like a handful 396 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 2: of primitive cabins and then her cottage, and her cottage 397 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: still stood until like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. 398 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 399 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you could go into her cottage and it 400 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: was still there was still furnishings in it and including 401 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: her bathtub, and the bathtub of her cottage is where 402 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 2: she was performing her autopsies. 403 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: Uh. 404 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: So that to me kind of like really gets across 405 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 2: like this is not like a super polished outfit, you 406 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 2: know what I mean? 407 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 408 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: And I think that's important to keep in mind too. 409 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: She basically built some rough fused cabins in the woods 410 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: in Washington and called this like her sanitarium. 411 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. And this is by the way in Alala Woods, Washington. 412 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: Yes, so close to Walla Walla, so close. 413 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: So Claire and Dora get there in February of nineteen 414 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: eleven and she was like, hey, we're not going to 415 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: stay here in Wilderness Heights. I'm not sure why she 416 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: did this. I have a feeling that she knew that 417 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: she had some big fish on the line. So she 418 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: took them to Seattle instead, and she basically lied to 419 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: them and said that the Alala Woods Retreat wasn't completed yet, 420 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: even though I think it clearly was. And so they 421 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: they put them up in some apartments in downtown Seattle, 422 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: started their fasting treatment and the vigorous massage, and they 423 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: were eating two cups of vegetable broth sounds like basically 424 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: canned tomato juice a day. 425 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: I also saw I think Dora later said that they 426 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 2: were made from asparagus tips, spinach, and lettuce. A broth 427 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 2: made from that, yeah, veggie broth. Yeah, so not anything 428 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: that you could possibly even remotely get full off of yet, 429 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 2: like you said, I think a cup twice a day, Yeah, 430 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: that's just yeah, So you're going to lose weight very quickly. 431 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: And this was like forty plus days of fasting. That 432 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: hazard was prescribing to her patients, right, And so I 433 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: think both of the Williamson sisters made it to fifty 434 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: days before they were transferred to Wilderness Heights. They didn't walk, 435 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: they were on stretchers. That's how they got to Wilderness 436 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: Heights from their apartments in downtown Seattle. 437 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean from what I can tell. They 438 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: weren't screaming on the way like get me help. Like 439 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: it feels like they were either all in still on 440 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: this or just so out of it at this point 441 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: they didn't know any better, you know. 442 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: Yes, or they were asking for help, but they were 443 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: asking for it, like Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle, 444 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: where they were like, get help. 445 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: It was pretty good, Stevie. 446 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: Thanks. 447 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: Did you watch the reboot of that? 448 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: No reboot. I can't give me one reboot that was 449 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: as good as the original or even close. 450 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't bring any reboots to mine at all, 451 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: so I don't know. But you're you're pretty much right, 452 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: like even the great Kids in the Hall, Like it 453 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: was just okay, right. I kind of want to watch 454 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: the Malcolm in the Middle one though, Oh oh, you 455 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: haven't seen it either, No, but I heard it was 456 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: pretty good. 457 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,479 Speaker 2: Actually all right, But is Frankie Munis has his voice changed? 458 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: No, it's exactly the same. And so it was what's 459 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: his face? 460 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: What was his name, Stevie, Stevie, Yeah. 461 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't remember. I just remember Cranston was so great. 462 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and his daughter's great too. We've said it before. 463 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 2: We'll say it again on the Pit. Doctor mel Is 464 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: Brian Cranston's daughter, and she does it great to him. 465 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we said that live on stage. I 466 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: don't think the listening public knows that you are now 467 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: on the pit. 468 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, but apparently it just stopped, like they just stopped 469 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: putting out episodes. But that last episode does not end 470 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 2: in any way that anyone would ever end the season 471 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: of TV. Oh you think, Yeah, Like, Noah Wiley didn't 472 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: leave yet. I don't even think as Buddy fully agreed 473 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: to getting the treatment he's supposed to get. What's going 474 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: on with Ali? Sheemi? Like the last thing we saw 475 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 2: is she just kind of had a meltdown in her car. 476 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: There's just all the stuff's up in the air. 477 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: But oh, I think that was the purpose. I think 478 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: it just was cliffhanger after cliffhanger. 479 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: Okay, yes, I can get cliffhangers. But it's almost like 480 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: it just petered out rather than cut it, like they 481 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: just cut all right, disagree? All right, Well, I was 482 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 2: surprised that that was how they ended it. 483 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: We just spoiled some stuff, by the way. 484 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we should probably Well, we. 485 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: Didn't say anything huge. No Wiley didn't leave, big deal. Okay, 486 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: all right, does he ever leave? 487 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 2: I don't know. 488 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: That's what I just need to go, like, he's never 489 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: he never leaves, he comes over, he overstays, is welcome. 490 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: Everyone's like, when's this guy gonna get on SMO and 491 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: drive out of Here's true? All right, I feel like 492 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: we're really off the rails now. We should take a 493 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: break and come back. Yes, yeah, all right, we'll be 494 00:27:35,160 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: right back all right where we left you. So, Noah 495 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: Wiley had not left yet the pit. No, I'm sorry. 496 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: We left the sisters in pretty bad condition. It was 497 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: about fifty days into their treatment. They were obviously in really, 498 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: really bad shape, having traveled by stretcher to Alaala Woods 499 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: and Claire died seventeen days after they got to the compound. 500 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: There in the forest. She and this is like very 501 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: triggering and super upsetting, so I'm issuing a warning here. 502 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: But she weighed less than fifty pounds when she passed, 503 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: and Hazard's own autopsy once again determined she died of 504 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: a liver disease that came from a childhood medical treatment 505 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: that caused her organs to shrink, and when her the 506 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: governess showed up, Margaret Conway, you know, finally arrived. She 507 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: told her that and she was like, I basically raised 508 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: these kids and she didn't have any childhood medical treatment 509 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: that caused her organs to shrink. 510 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should just say that Margaret Conway, her governess, 511 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: who we talked about earlier, she got a cable from 512 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: one of them. I can't remember if it was Dora 513 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 2: or Claire. 514 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: Probably Dora, I think it was Dora. 515 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it just basically saying like, please come, here's the 516 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: ship you want to take, here's where we are. Just 517 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: get here. And Margaret Conway just dropped everything. And within 518 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: a month she had traveled from Australia to Seattle. That's 519 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: how long it took. 520 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean she was welcomed. I mean Samuel 521 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: met her in Seattle and said, all right, let's get 522 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: on the train. We're going to show you this operation. 523 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: Like it's pretty sad what's happening, but like we have 524 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: a top notch practice here. And they brought her to 525 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: the mortuary to see Claire and she was like, that's 526 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: not Claire, whoever this body is. And I get the 527 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: impression that it wasn't like she so emaciated. I didn't 528 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: recognize her like I think they tried to pull the 529 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: fast one on her. 530 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was rumors, I guess that the local mortuary 531 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: was in cahoots with the Hazards and that they would 532 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: switch out bodies that weren't amazing heated who had nothing 533 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: to do with Wilderness Heights. Yeah, the emaciated bodies of 534 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: their victims so that family wouldn't be like, I think 535 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: you starved my mom to death. Right, So Margaret Conway 536 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: was not in any way, shape or form put off 537 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: by Samuel Hazzard's charm or Linda Hazard's authority, like she 538 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: realized like that they had killed Claire. One of the 539 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: dead giveaways was that Linda Hazard was wearing one of 540 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: Claire's robes and her favorite hat when she received Margaret 541 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: Conway at the at the Wilderness Heights at their cottage, 542 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: and that I think immediately rubbed Margaret Conway the wrong way. 543 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: And she was like, I give me Dora. I'm taking 544 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: Dora home and Linda and Samuel said not so fast. 545 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, while Dora was in the same shape, she weighed 546 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: about fifty pounds, was barely alive at this point, and 547 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: so yeah, she asked for and the hazards are like, 548 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: actually where the executor of her estate. She is under 549 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: our legal guardianship forever, and my husband Samuel has power 550 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: of attorney over all of her in the family's financial matters. 551 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: And not only that is you've got a medical bill 552 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: you need to pay. You owe us two grand. 553 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: It's about seventy k today. 554 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 555 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: Margaret Conway is like, well, I don't have seventy grand. 556 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: I have no idea how to overturn a legal guardianship. 557 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: But it just so happened that Claire and Dora's uncle, 558 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: John Herbert, was just up in Portland, not very far away, 559 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 2: even back in nineteen eleven, nineteen ten, down in Portland. Yeah, 560 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: oh yeah, you're sorry. Go to be right, No, one 561 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 2: hundred percent, it is I have which show we did backwards? 562 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 2: Usually we do Seattle first and then Portland. Right, yeah, okay, 563 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: So anyway, John Herbert was down in Portland, and Margaret 564 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: Conway got in touch with him as I need your help, 565 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: like these Claire's been killed and Dora was in big trouble, 566 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: She's about to die, and these two hucksters have like 567 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo going on. And John 568 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: Herbert got involved. He's like, I'm a man and this 569 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: is the Edwardian era. So everybody listened to me, and 570 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: that's when things started moving. 571 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Samuel Hazard did produce a document. It 572 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: was a typewritten statement that he said, Claire, you know, 573 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: dictated this to us on her deathbed, but she didn't 574 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: sign it because she was too weak to sign it. 575 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: Because of the whole you know, liver issue. I said 576 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: to my relatives and friends, I'm writing the statement to 577 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: say that Dora and I entered on this course of 578 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: treatment only after thorough investigation, that we have continued it voluntarily, 579 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: and that if death occurs, I believe that it is 580 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: inevitable that it would have come in any circumstances, which 581 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: is like, I mean, it sounds like a child wrote 582 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: that to get out of being in trouble, you. 583 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: Know, right exactly. So, I mean, just that last line 584 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: about if she dies it was inevitable anyway, just so 585 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: smacks of Linda Hazard's philosophy that you can't starve to death. Yeah, 586 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: it was just very clearly fake. So John Herbert gets involved. 587 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: Thanks to Margaret Conway, they find get this. The vice 588 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: counsel of the British embassy in Tacoma. Let all that 589 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: sink in for a second. They get them involved, and 590 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: they get the guardianship overturned. Herbert gets the two thousand 591 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: dollars unpaid bill negotiated down to one thousand dollars and 592 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 2: essentially pays a ransom for Door to be released. And 593 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: in the meantime, once he has Dora back, he starts 594 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: looking into some of these other patients and finds like 595 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 2: Dora and Claire were far from the only victims who 596 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 2: were essentially had been exploited financially while they were out 597 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: of their minds from starvation. 598 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So it's, you know, just like the 599 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: movie scene is starting to sort of add up in 600 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: his head, and he brings this evidence into the authorities 601 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,919 Speaker 1: there in the county and they investigate obviously, and Linda 602 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: Hazard was arrested for murder for I think murder in 603 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: the first degree of Claire Williamson and for obvious financial fraud. 604 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: And it was a you know, you said earlier, it 605 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: was sensational. It was a big deal, international press. You know, 606 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: first they had to find out where the Olala Woods 607 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: was and then they came there and started covering this case, 608 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: and she was known as the Starvation Doctor. I think 609 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: they started calling her place Starvation Heights instead. 610 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: Of what was it, Wilderness Heights. 611 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, Wilderness Heights, Yes, it's pretty good one. And they 612 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of speculation flying around, like 613 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: you know that she had this hold over people, that 614 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: was rumors that she may have been hypnotizing them to 615 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: keep them under her hold. But like you mentioned earlier, 616 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: there still are and certainly back then had people their 617 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: former patients or wealthy benefactors or other naturopaths that were like, hey, 618 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, she's a woman practicing outside the box medicine 619 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: and that's why she's being prosecuted. 620 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: Yes, we should say that it actually took a lot 621 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 2: of leaning on the Kitsap County prosecutor where Wilderness Heights 622 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 2: was located, to actually prosecute this crime, because again, she 623 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: had a lot of local support and there were a 624 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: lot of people who are like, she's being persecuted by 625 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 2: these Brits who are like total out of towners, and 626 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: they're being supported by vocal people from the American Medical 627 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 2: Association who want only doctors to practice their way and 628 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: basically this woman's being persecuted that as a witch essentially, 629 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 2: so she did have a lot of supporters, but she 630 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 2: had a lot of detractors too. It seems like, on balance, 631 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: at least as far as the press is concerned, she 632 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 2: was generally viewed as a murderer and a grifter. I guess, 633 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 2: a grifting murderer, terrible combination. 634 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the first thing she said was this, 635 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: the first guy that came at me was an ambassador 636 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: stationed in Tacoma, Tacoma. Everyone does that sound remotely believable? 637 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: Right? It does sound kind of made up. 638 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: So January fifteenth, nineteen twelve, the trial starts. They lay 639 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: out their evidence basically, which was all pretty obvious, like 640 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: she's trying to fleece these people of money when they 641 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: have no control over their own senses. And I think 642 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: I had about one hundred people testify for the prosecution. 643 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: There were lots of doctors, you know, being paraded up 644 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: there as expert witnesses. And Dora even took the stand 645 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: and talked about this scene basically near the end where 646 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: she was bedside and Claire is trying to whisper Stevie 647 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: style something to Dora like her sister as she's passing essentially, 648 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: and every time she tried to speak miss Hazard or 649 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: missus Hazzard as as she called him, she kept talking 650 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: and I couldn't hear. Like she would lean in and 651 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: she'd say Dory, and she would interrupt and say how 652 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: did you spell that name again, and like she would 653 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: not let her. I mean, this is one of the 654 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: most upsetting parts. Like she wouldn't even let her sister 655 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: perhaps even say goodbye. Who knows what she was trying 656 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: to say. 657 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and apparently also, I guess doctor Hazard cut in 658 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: and was like, I'm going to give Claire one of 659 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: my famous massagists and pressed down so hard that Claire 660 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 2: lost consciousness. And shortly after that, Dora was told that 661 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 2: Claire had died. And so, yeah, those probably would have 662 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 2: been her last words to her that Linda Hazzard basically 663 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 2: interrupted on purpose. 664 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she actually died, Dora. I found out 665 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: she died the next morning, so she didn't get that chance. 666 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: Later either, the defensive course comes in and said that 667 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: you know it wasn't the treatment. She didn't die of starvation. 668 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: That's when Linda Hazard very famously says, you know, it's 669 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: not possible to starve someone to death. And you know, 670 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: Trot's out her book in the middle of court and 671 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: says here, read this, and this is the quote from 672 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: the book. Death in the fast never results from deprivation 673 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality sapped 674 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: to the last degree by organic imperfection. Right. I mean, 675 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: that's quackery, if like nineteenth century quackery, if I've ever 676 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: heard it, you know for sure. 677 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,439 Speaker 2: But I mean it is technically true, like you die 678 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 2: from your organs failing, but your organs get their vitality 679 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 2: from the food that you're not getting. So it's kind 680 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 2: of like potato potato essentially. Yes, it is. It's a 681 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 2: pretty glib workaround, I guess. But she stood by that. 682 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 2: She was like, now, you can't die from starvation. That's 683 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 2: why she said. And Claire died from liver disease. That's 684 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: why her first patient, Gertrude Young, a first patient to die, 685 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 2: she died from paralysis. It's whatever was wrong with you 686 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 2: ahead of time, that's what killed you, not starvation. I 687 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 2: don't know if Linda Hazard truly believed that there's actually 688 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 2: some evidence at the very end that we'll see, but 689 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 2: that's just so dumb that and I have the impression 690 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 2: that Linda Hazard was not a dumb person at all. 691 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: I just can't believe that she believed that. 692 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: I feel like, given the financial piece, I feel like 693 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: she knew what she was doing. Okay, that's just my 694 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: take on it. 695 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: Right. So again, there were some supporters who are like, hey, 696 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 2: you know, like she's being persecuted, and the jury said, 697 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 2: you know what, we're going to split the middle here. 698 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 2: We're going to find her guilty on a charge of 699 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 2: manslaughter not murder, so everybody can be unhappy. 700 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, she was sentenced to two to twenty hard 701 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: labor at Walla Walla Penitentiaria. 702 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 703 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: And that wasn't it though, because she appealed the case 704 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: and appealed it and appealed it all the way up 705 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: to the United States or was it the state Supreme Court? 706 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 2: No, the US Supreme Court. 707 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: From what I am seen, the US Supreme Court took 708 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: about eighteen months to get there, and you know, she 709 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: had supporter sending in letters the whole time saying to 710 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: release her. The state of Washington did revoke her license 711 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: to practice medicine, but she did continue to practice two 712 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: more deaths happened after Claire Williamson, and then she finally 713 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: goes to prison, eventually at Wallawalla. 714 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so while she's appealing and is out and about 715 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 2: on bail, two more people die. She kills two more people. 716 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 2: That's just crazy. She finally gets to Walla Walla, like 717 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 2: you said, and that two to twenty years. It's what's 718 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 2: known as an indeterminate sentence, like you have to serve 719 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 2: at least a minimum, but you're not going to serve 720 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: beyond twenty right. So she was in there for I 721 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 2: think less than two years before she was paroled. She 722 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 2: very famously knitted ponchos for the other inmates. And when 723 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 2: she did get out, I think within six months she 724 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: had been pardoned by the governor of Washington. 725 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, it's kind of hard to get 726 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: super accurate information for this old time stuff, but I 727 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: did see in the Washington archives there was a stipulation 728 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: that she had to leave the country if they were 729 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: going to let her out. So, regardless of whether or 730 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: not that's true, she did leave the country. We'll get 731 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: to that in a second. Dora also left the country. 732 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: She went back to England and settled down in Gloucester 733 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: and you know, lived sounds like a pretty great full 734 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: life after that. She got married in nineteen fourteen to 735 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: Reverend Wyndham Allen Chaplin and lived to be seventy one 736 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: years old. Died in nineteen forty five. So she fully 737 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: recovered from her quote unquote treatment, right, and Linda Hazard 738 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: went to New Zealand to Hawker Wares. 739 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and was very well received there during the trial. 740 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: One of her vocal supporters was the Sydney Morning Herald, 741 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 2: I think, or at least some columnists in there. And 742 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,959 Speaker 2: she made a ton of money again when she showed 743 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 2: up in New Zealand, Like people just flocked to her 744 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 2: for her treatment. And I think she long said like, hey, yeah, 745 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 2: fifteen people died in my care from the fasting, but 746 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: you know I've had hundreds of other patients, So is 747 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 2: that really that bad? And people are like, yeah, it 748 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 2: is kind of bad. But also, you know, most doctors 749 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 2: who lose patients don't also fleece them of their estate. 750 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 2: Like that's really what took it. Like, murder is bad, 751 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 2: murder for profit is really bad. 752 00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, we're going to rank murder. 753 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 2: Sure, let's just face it. Murder for profit is really bad. 754 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 1: I agree. I think the piece that you were talking about, 755 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: the one additional little piece of information that maybe she 756 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: did believe fully believe this stuff, yeh, is that she 757 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: herself died from her own treatment June twenty fourth, nineteen 758 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: thirty eight, self administering of fasting cure. So you know, 759 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: I don't think it was pure hocum in her mind. 760 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: I think she probably did believe it to a certain degree, 761 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: but I think she took it to extremes to fleece 762 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: people for sure. 763 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's Linda Hazard. 764 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a book that a lots came from from 765 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. It's called Starvation Heights by a local 766 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: named Greg Olsen. So shout out to Greg Olsen in 767 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: that book. 768 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 2: If you can't find it at a sec or a 769 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 2: third g, I guess to the end of Greg Olsen's 770 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 2: name and it should. 771 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: Come up that was it, g R e Gg. 772 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, probably won't come up on a search that's just 773 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 2: g R. E g in Starvation Heights nineteen ninety seven, 774 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 2: but if you add that extra ge, it will definitely 775 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 2: come up. 776 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you just google greg Olsen, you'll probably 777 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,320 Speaker 1: come up with the Atlanta Braves Catcher from the nineteen 778 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: nineties or. 779 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 2: Early about him. Yeah, he was a catcher. Huh yeah, Okay, 780 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 2: you got anything else about Greg Olsen, whether you're talking 781 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 2: about the author or the catcher. 782 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,720 Speaker 1: I know he was not a belly scratcher. 783 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:27,800 Speaker 2: You belly itcher. 784 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: I think scratcher a picture, not a belly atcher. Catcher, 785 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:34,720 Speaker 1: not a belly scratcher. 786 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 2: Oh okay, I've never heard that second part. He just 787 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 2: blew my mind. Buddy. Well, since we started talking about 788 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 2: braves pictures and childhood rhymes, I think it's time for 789 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 2: listener mail. 790 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: That's right. This is from Daniel. Hey, guys, love the 791 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: episode of Maple Syrup and all your episodes. You want 792 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: to let you know something similar In Australia, there's a 793 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: tree called the side agum or the eucalytus gunny nice, 794 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: and it produces a similar sweet sap. Guys. I couldn't 795 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: find any evidence of it being eaten as is, but 796 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: the local Paalawa people of Tasmania let it naturally ferment 797 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: to turn it into a cider like drink called Why Elena. 798 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: Of course, the tree is now incredibly rare, mostly confined 799 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: to one valley in Tasmania due to all the usual 800 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: good things I sent sarcasm there. As a white Australian, 801 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: I would love for you to do an episode on 802 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: bush Tucker. So much knowledge was lost due to colonization 803 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,439 Speaker 1: and genocide, but there's still so much amazing information out there. 804 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: And that is from Daniel. 805 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 2: Nice. Daniel, thank you have not heard of cidergum tree 806 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 2: no or bushtucker no. So those are really great ideas 807 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 2: and thanks a lot for that. I cannot wait till 808 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 2: we get back to Australia so we can try that 809 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 2: cider bush Tucker? 810 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:57,720 Speaker 1: Is it food apparently? 811 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,400 Speaker 2: Oh? I think bush tucker is like knowledge. That was 812 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 2: the impression I have. 813 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,799 Speaker 1: Well I just look it up and it's called it's 814 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,839 Speaker 1: a food, So. 815 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 2: You know, thanks for that. He just gave me the rope, 816 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 2: didn't you. 817 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: Well, I mean I tried to tell you those food. 818 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 2: Well, I hadn't realized that you looked anything up. I 819 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 2: thought we always discussed before we look things up. 820 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: Oh sorry, click any click type type. 821 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 2: Here you go now. I know. If you want to 822 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 2: be like Daniel and send us a great email, we 823 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 2: would love that. You can send it off to Stuff 824 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 2: Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is 825 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 2: a production of iHeartRadio. 826 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 827 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.