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Speaker 1: Will Lucas hearing Black Tech, Green Money, and I have.

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Speaker 2: A special special episode. So I used to do a

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Speaker 2: different podcast called of Ten Podcasts, which I told you

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Speaker 2: guys about.

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Speaker 1: On the show before.

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Speaker 2: And one of the people who was on season two,

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Speaker 2: which would have been like twenty eighteen twenty seventeen, was

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Speaker 2: my guest today's Baritune Day Thirst and he's a storyteller,

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Speaker 2: Emmy nominated host, writer, producer, public speaker. Most recently, his

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Speaker 2: work explores ai, nature and humanity. Welcome Bartune Day Brother.

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Speaker 3: Will good to be back as a reunion man.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm so excited for this because you have probably

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite talks at this past years Afro Tech,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, we gotta get him back.

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Speaker 3: On this show. Thank you man, and thank you that

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Speaker 3: was a special gathering there. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, actually, before I even get into my questions, like

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Speaker 2: when you go to prepare for that audience, you know

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Speaker 2: you're talking to you know, tens of thousands of black

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Speaker 2: people all pushing to build the future, be part of

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Speaker 2: the future, figure out with the features gonna hold what

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Speaker 2: is that? What does your spirit say I need to

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Speaker 2: bring to this audience.

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Speaker 3: That's a good question, and I think, you know, I

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Speaker 3: do a lot of talking. It's literally my job is

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Speaker 3: just to put words together, to put them on a

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Speaker 3: page or a stage. And for that gathering, I knew

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Speaker 3: I had, like the spine set. There is a perspective

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Speaker 3: that I'm trying to bring to the conversation about tech

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Speaker 3: and AI today that it's like, how do we live

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Speaker 3: well with this tech and not just survive it and

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Speaker 3: endure it? I think feeling into the blackness of it,

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Speaker 3: it's like, how can I be even more relaxed? How

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Speaker 3: can I breathe and feel? And I don't know, it's like,

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Speaker 3: what's the cookout energy? I could bring what's the the

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Speaker 3: spades table kind of energy where it's like, okay, it's us,

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Speaker 3: you know, to us. And I think the tone was

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Speaker 3: set really well because I've walked into that convention center.

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Speaker 3: It's just like it's so black. Jadenna went right before me.

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Speaker 3: That set a tone and just walking out and feeling it,

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Speaker 3: it's like, oh, this is family, So we could have

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Speaker 3: a family conversation, right and we can be really like,

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Speaker 3: how can I try to amp up the level of

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Speaker 3: realness and playfulness and just say say what we know

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Speaker 3: to be true in this moment, whether it's about the

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Speaker 3: political situation, about the perils of AI, or about the

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Speaker 3: promise to try to build something different this time around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think about and this again, this is

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Speaker 2: not even part of my questions. That's when I talked

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Speaker 2: for a second. Yeah, so I remember the part of

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Speaker 2: your talk. You're talking about how your mother. I forgot

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Speaker 2: how you phrased it, like she you know, creatively you know,

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Speaker 2: escorted out a computer.

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Speaker 1: From the way you said.

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Speaker 3: I said, she leveraged excess inventory, liberated excess inventory.

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Speaker 1: I like that. I like that.

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Speaker 2: And so because I think about like the kind of

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Speaker 2: the waves of industries that specifically young black people want

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Speaker 2: to be in.

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Speaker 1: Oh, in like generations.

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Speaker 2: It's like when I was, you know, coming up, like

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Speaker 2: we wanted to be in the music business, and then

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Speaker 2: there was like this, you know, I may skip over

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Speaker 2: some but then it was like everybody wanted to be

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Speaker 2: in media. Then everybody wanted to be you know, in

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Speaker 2: you know, technology, and everybody wants to be in not

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Speaker 2: in technology any more because they realized technology is really

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Speaker 2: just media companies and you know.

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Speaker 1: Social media. Think about that.

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Speaker 2: And so when you were coming up, I imagine you

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Speaker 2: probably didn't necessarily want to be like in tech, but like,

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Speaker 2: what did you want to be in and how did

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Speaker 2: you find your way telling these stories?

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Speaker 3: When I was very young, I wanted to be a gardener.

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Speaker 3: I really liked the idea of playing in dirt. Surprise, surprise,

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Speaker 3: little boy playing in dirt. And I had worked in

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Speaker 3: a community garden. I grew up in DC, Chocolate City,

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Speaker 3: and I was a member of the little community garden.

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Speaker 3: And it's so satisfying to pull something out of the

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Speaker 3: earth that is different than what you put in the earth.

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Speaker 3: It's a different type of investing. But you're like watching

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Speaker 3: something grow that's not in an account. It's like in

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Speaker 3: your hands, and then you could put it in your

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Speaker 3: body and the deliciousness, like I can still taste the radish.

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Speaker 3: I can taste the first radish I ever grew, and

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Speaker 3: mustard greens spicy, and it was just like I was

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Speaker 3: so small and to be able to contribute. I think

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Speaker 3: this is probably clearer now than when at the time,

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Speaker 3: but my mother was doing a lot of work. She's

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Speaker 3: raising me and my sister on our own, were entering

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Speaker 3: levels of the crack wars and all the nonsense that

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Speaker 3: has you know, hit a lot of our communities and

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Speaker 3: still does in so many ways. And so there was

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Speaker 3: also a sense of witnessing how much she was investing

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Speaker 3: in sacrificing and being able to add to that. So

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Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, I got you. I got to

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Speaker 3: be a gardener, you know, that was it? That that

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Speaker 3: was very obvious to me. And I get to be dirty,

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Speaker 3: and no one can be like you're dirty. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: it's my job.

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Speaker 1: It's job.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually working here, ma'am sir. So from that to

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Speaker 3: this quite a journey, quite a journey. I know that

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Speaker 3: I liked mouthing off. I knew that I had like

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Speaker 3: a little gift of gab. Also because of that same mother.

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Speaker 3: My mom had a shorter temper than I did, and

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Speaker 3: she had kind of a higher standard for humanity I

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Speaker 3: think than I did, but mixed with lower tolerance, which

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Speaker 3: is like a hard place to be, especially if you're

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Speaker 3: doing a lot of this parenting work alone. So she

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Speaker 3: had trust issues based on her childhood and a lot

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Speaker 3: of things. She was violated in various ways by society,

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Speaker 3: but also lived by her own family, and so I

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Speaker 3: was often deployed to communicate this neighbor did something I

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Speaker 3: don't like, if I go over there, it's probably gonna

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Speaker 3: get worse. Can you write a letter? Can you make

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Speaker 3: a call? Can you? And so I started being deployed

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Speaker 3: almost like a diplomat, which is a lot of work.

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Speaker 3: So it's a mix of like her self awareness and

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Speaker 3: also maybe some premature assignment of responsibility through this child

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Speaker 3: to interact in the world of adults and in the

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Speaker 3: world of language and communication. But I was good at it,

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Speaker 3: and I could feel the response that people had to

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Speaker 3: me relative to her, and I think that probably helped

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Speaker 3: set me even more on the path of all this

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Speaker 3: narrative and storytelling and performing and mouthing off work did

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 2: What is your perspective on how academic institutions how they

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Speaker 2: should embrace AI for education and kids learning, because I imagine,

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Speaker 2: you know, some are in the category of we just

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Speaker 2: don't want you using it at all. Others are like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're okay, but these are the parameters, and

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Speaker 2: but like, I don't necessarily need to learn, you know,

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Speaker 2: a diition. I can have a calculator, And they said,

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Speaker 2: you said, what has When I grew up, it was like,

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Speaker 2: what if you don't have it available?

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Speaker 1: What it goes everywhere with.

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Speaker 2: Me, you know, and so like that day that they

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Speaker 2: imagined has never happened, it's never arived. And so what

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Speaker 2: is your take on how parents and educators should embrace AI.

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Speaker 3: That's that's a big one. We're actually for life with Machines.

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Speaker 3: We're in the midst of making a mini series about

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Speaker 3: youth and AI our next episode. I just recorded the

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Speaker 3: voice over yesterday about education in particular, and it's really fraud.

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Speaker 3: And so I would start with a lot of empathy

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Speaker 3: for parents, for teachers, and for students, because everybody's wrestling

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Speaker 3: with choices that none of them made. We're all we've

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Speaker 3: all been forced to react to the choices of a

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Speaker 3: very small group of people that have unleashed something that

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Speaker 3: is affecting all of our lives well beyond technology and sore.

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Speaker 3: If anybody's feeling overwhelmed by it or inadequate to the task,

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Speaker 3: that's not on you, and you're not alone. And so

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Speaker 3: we all need to give ourselves some grace and some

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Speaker 3: forgiveness for not having figured it out. What we're facing

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Speaker 3: is absolutely ridiculous. I think that there's something in the

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Speaker 3: middle where we need to land here outright banning these

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Speaker 3: technologies and tools does not feel realistic to me. I

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Speaker 3: think the radical embrace of just like give every kid

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Speaker 3: access to an AI is highly irresponsible. These tools are

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Speaker 3: not intelligent. They are you know, the large language model

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Speaker 3: editions of them. I should be more specific, but these

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Speaker 3: are statistical models that are predicting math and converting that

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Speaker 3: math into language or images, et cetera. Very convincing, often useful,

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Speaker 3: not intelligent, and there's a lot of risk built up

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Speaker 3: in them. So what I've seen that works. I heard

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Speaker 3: Clay Cherokee, he runs take AI and tech education program

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Speaker 3: for New York University, and he was saying, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you measure a tire company, you're going to look

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Speaker 3: for them to produce more tires as a measure of success.

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Speaker 3: And so you add technologies, you get more tires, like

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Speaker 3: you're winning. If you measure a history department, you might

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Speaker 3: be tempted to measure production of history papers as a

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Speaker 3: measure of success. But we educational institutions should not be

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Speaker 3: in the business of like producing history papers. They should

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Speaker 3: be in the business and really the civic mission of

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Speaker 3: producing historians and people will understand history. And so I

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Speaker 3: think there's I would advise people to think not just

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Speaker 3: about the output and and generating high scores, but about

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Speaker 3: thought process, about community membership, about self awareness and introspection.

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Speaker 3: What are we actually trying to create here? If we're

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Speaker 3: trying to create little robots, then keep it up and

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Speaker 3: talking to another one, Avi Folek, She's got a radical

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Speaker 3: new school concept called the flight School, and it's really

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Speaker 3: just about self discovery and mentorship and community and these

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Speaker 3: things that could be a bit harder to train a

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Speaker 3: model to replicate. And so with the young people say

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Speaker 3: what kind of humans are we trying to create and

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Speaker 3: raise and grow? And then less work backwards from that? Okay, well,

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Speaker 3: what kind of educational system do we need to put

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Speaker 3: in place to get that output? And I think that

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Speaker 3: will get us off the path of efficiency scoring. How

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Speaker 3: fast can a kid regurgitate a data point? A human

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Speaker 3: will never win that race? And should we should concede

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Speaker 3: that now and tap out right. I'm not even going

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Speaker 3: to try to play that game. That game is unworthy

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Speaker 3: of me as a spiritual being, you know, me as

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Speaker 3: a as a member of the community of life. And

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Speaker 3: I think it gets real philosophical and moral. Are we

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Speaker 3: going to define ourselves? By our output, whether it's financial

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Speaker 3: or textual. How many tokens did you generate today? Will

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Speaker 3: You're gonna lose? You're already done lost, like I've lost

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Speaker 3: by even asking you that, because my expectations of you

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Speaker 3: are machine like as opposed to like, what did you

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Speaker 3: learn about yourself today? Will? What did you learn about

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Speaker 3: or how did you contribute to your loved ones today?

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Speaker 3: That that's you, chatchybt ain't got nothing on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm interested in this so many places I

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Speaker 2: want to go with this, but I'm interested in your

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Speaker 2: take on because you think about humanity a lot. You

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Speaker 2: think about technology and AI as it relates to humanity

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Speaker 2: and has has humanity relates to AI? And you know,

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Speaker 2: I wonder I'm gonna explore this while I'm saying it

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Speaker 2: so with me, I think about how we could get

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Speaker 2: to a day where AI has rights, robot attacking rights,

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Speaker 2: And because you know, people today would just say, you know,

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Speaker 2: if it goes, hey ryer, just unplug it. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know if that works because number one, like it's

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Speaker 2: bigger than that, but more so, like you can just

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Speaker 2: unplug a human you know, so while they're not biological beings,

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Speaker 2: they there is some there's something there, and I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to formulate, like, like what is the line that we

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Speaker 2: could approach, you know, X I, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you know x X I A so x X was

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Speaker 2: talking at to somebody and she was saying, how there

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Speaker 2: is something more spiritual that we are not including when

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Speaker 2: we talk about how robots can take over humans. You know,

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Speaker 2: we haven't figured out how the those works she was

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Speaker 2: talking about. And she was like, this is more than

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Speaker 2: just biology. There's something spiritual there. And I just wonder

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Speaker 2: what you take from all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: I just said, that's a bunch. Let me offer something

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Speaker 3: on the previous one before we get to the big

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Speaker 3: spiritual existential question.

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Speaker 1: Of what is life.

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Speaker 3: In the educational context, there are there's a value for

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Speaker 3: students who need a different learning style or have language

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Speaker 3: skills that are different from their teacher or the raw

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Speaker 3: material a I can really help with that. There's a

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Speaker 3: lack of judgment in the interaction that I know a

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Speaker 3: lot of young people find helpful, and humans often don't

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Speaker 3: know how to check that part of ourselves when we're

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Speaker 3: dealing with each other. That can be really useful. And

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Speaker 3: I've seen teachers find ways to create more adaptive lessons

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Speaker 3: with these tools that help them reach their students and

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Speaker 3: make something relevant. So I just want to name that

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Speaker 3: there is a positive opportunity here while also challenging the

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Speaker 3: assumption that everything's got to be AI, and that we

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Speaker 3: also need to be very get clear on our definitions,

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Speaker 3: because the large language model model of what AI is

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Speaker 3: is really slippery nonspecific slope that we end up on,

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Speaker 3: and all the hallucinations and whatnot. The fact that these

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Speaker 3: tools announce constantly like I'm reasoning, I'm thinking now. It's

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Speaker 3: like the lady doth protest too much, bro, Like that's

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Speaker 3: not it's not how thinking works. Like when I'm I've

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Speaker 3: been thinking with you this whole time. I'm not just

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Speaker 3: you will now, I'm thinking now, I'm processing. If you're

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Speaker 3: like over, you're trying too hard and you're trying to

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Speaker 3: convince yourself. You know the people who built these things

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Speaker 3: as much as convince us that this is a truly

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Speaker 3: thinking machine. On this big question of and x AI

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Speaker 3: x I E S, how do you pronounce that name?

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Speaker 3: I x I A thank you. I think that we

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Speaker 3: have a lot of work that we could do to

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Speaker 3: honor the rights of the already living, the already living humans,

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Speaker 3: and the already living plants and animals and Meba and

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Speaker 3: and all of the life that's already here. And that's

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Speaker 3: an ancient way of being that we have we have forgotten.

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Speaker 3: But it's not just that we have like passively forgotten.

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Speaker 3: There's a whole economic, dominant model that has severed us

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Speaker 3: from this earth and allowed us to not see the

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Speaker 3: dignity in all life. And so the AI moment is

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Speaker 3: an ironic one because you see people skipping ahead to like, wet,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna have to be respecting the rights of these machines.

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Speaker 3: And I'm part of me invites it because I'm like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 3: everything is just energy at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: Even those machines are just resonating at a frequency not

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Speaker 3: that much different from us. We're all products of the

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Speaker 3: big bag.

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Speaker 2: Ask my question, I was trying to figure out you

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Speaker 2: just really asked it better than I said it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but we're both we're thinking out loud here look

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Speaker 3: at it. We should have a little transcript of our

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Speaker 3: thought process, I chain of thought, just to prove that

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Speaker 3: we're sentient. So so I want to see this the

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Speaker 3: rise of these machines as an invitation to respect all life.

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Speaker 3: I don't think these machines are alive, but I do

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Speaker 3: acknowledge that they are part of the same energy field

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Speaker 3: that everything that alive is also a part of. And

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Speaker 3: I don't know what that distinction is, or if it's

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Speaker 3: just like a fuzzy gray zone between what I feel

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Speaker 3: comfortable with and what I feel uncomfortable with. They're the

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Speaker 3: I have a I have a problem with the leap

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Speaker 3: so on the idea that we are more than we

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Speaker 3: don't know how the nose works or the earny. I

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Speaker 3: think we've been hoodwinked to a great extent by the

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Speaker 3: language of those selling us AI, like let me just

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Speaker 3: I gotta. I want to repeat as much as possible

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Speaker 3: that there's people and organizations that need us to buy

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Speaker 3: into their vision because they have spent trillions of dollars

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Speaker 3: on their vision and people want their money back. So

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Speaker 3: this is not a civic enterprise, This is not a

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Speaker 3: charitable cause, This is not a nonprofit human rights spiritual even.

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Speaker 3: This is a financial driver. And then it's getting wrapped

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Speaker 3: up in all this outher language about human potential and growth.

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Speaker 3: Some of that couldn't be true, but the primary driver

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Speaker 3: both need to get their money back, and in service

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Speaker 3: of that, there have been some sloppiness with the language.

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Speaker 3: You know, neural networks, the AI works like the human brain.

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Speaker 3: This is not a true statement. This is not a

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Speaker 3: true statement. And I think for those who are I'm

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Speaker 3: not even that deep in the tech, but I'm closer

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Speaker 3: than the average person. Because you use the word neural

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Speaker 3: does not make it like our brain. It is a

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Speaker 3: radical simplification the relationships between these digital neurons and the

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Speaker 3: ones that are actually in our bodies, and the relationship

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Speaker 3: and the models that we have versus the models that

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Speaker 3: they have. Just because you use the word model doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean it's the same thing. And so our minds are

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Speaker 3: more than neurological connections. The way we learn has to

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Speaker 3: do with being embodied. We are relational, we are social.

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Speaker 3: We literally lose our minds without connection. And the premise

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Speaker 3: of so much of this tech is be alone and

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Speaker 3: rely on us instead, rely on our models. Have bots

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Speaker 3: and say you don't need a person, you don't need

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Speaker 3: to hire people, you need to talk to people, you

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Speaker 3: don't need to build with people, you don't need to

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Speaker 3: be in love with people. You need to be friends

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Speaker 3: with people, right, just choose the machine versions of all

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Speaker 3: those things, which serves the people selling the machine versions

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Speaker 3: of all those things. So the robot rights conversation to

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Speaker 3: me cannot be separated from the big financial and economic

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Speaker 3: incentives of those pushing the robots. While also everything is

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Speaker 3: light and everything is energy, so I can't fully dismiss it,

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Speaker 3: but I want I want us to get to that

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Speaker 3: kind of universal respect for light in a high integrity way,

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Speaker 3: in a way that we're choosing rather than being backed

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Speaker 3: into a corner by it from a real narrow definition

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Speaker 3: of life, which is this kind of centrally controlled set

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Speaker 3: of agents and robots that serve a profit motive. That

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Speaker 3: that's not what a true is. Bro Like, we're mixing

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Speaker 3: too many things and calling them the same thing.

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Speaker 1: That's really good. That's really good.

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Speaker 2: So I know you have a take on this, and

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Speaker 2: I want to set a foundation here.

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Speaker 1: So I've heard people like Bill Gates.

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Speaker 2: Satya Nattella sam Altman say, you know, well, what happens

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Speaker 2: when I don't have to do my work anymore, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I'll have more time to paint. And what I hear

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Speaker 2: from that is you won't have a job because you

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Speaker 2: got to read between the lines there, like, yeah, so,

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Speaker 2: and I know you have a take on this, and

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Speaker 2: I want to give you like one more layers. I'm

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Speaker 2: cautious when I talk like this because it sounds like

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Speaker 2: I'm like a doomsday is but I do believe that

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Speaker 2: we have not been honest with people on There.

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Speaker 1: Will be jobs lost.

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Speaker 2: And because people will say, you know your job, won't

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Speaker 2: You won't lose your job to AI, It'll get lost

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Speaker 2: to somebody who knows how to use AI. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: because AI, I may not need that job anymore online

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Speaker 2: or a chart. Yeah, and so the job may just

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Speaker 2: not exist. It's not that somebody using AI is doing it.

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Speaker 2: I just won't need it anymore. And so I wonder

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Speaker 2: what your take is on the level of honesty we're

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Speaker 2: having with this conversation.

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Speaker 1: And what you really believe will unfold And.

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Speaker 3: We're all guessing here, but yeah, you know, thanks for

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Speaker 3: the wide margin of allowance to no one actually knows right.

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Speaker 3: We're all speculating, guessing, bullshitting whatever. I agree that we

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Speaker 3: are not being honest in many ways. I have a

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Speaker 3: critique that I offered up to the Afrotech audience but

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Speaker 3: I've done it elsewhere that AI is not taking your job.

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Speaker 3: That that sentence is not very helpful because it's not accurate.

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Speaker 3: AI is not self conscious, it doesn't make its own choices.

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Speaker 3: It is operating under directives and goals set by people,

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Speaker 3: and people are making decisions to not hire folks and

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Speaker 3: have robots or software do those jobs instead, and those

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Speaker 3: people are accountable. There's people who created these tools, there's

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Speaker 3: people who are hiring and firing and everything in between,

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Speaker 3: and so I think it's just important to maintain the

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Speaker 3: appropriate accountability. Otherwise we set up this awkward situation where

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Speaker 3: people hate robots and they hate chatbots and software and

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Speaker 3: the irony is like and this is getting into that

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Speaker 3: fuzzy zone. But like, those entities did not choose to

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Speaker 3: be here, right Like jem and I didn't ask to

386
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Speaker 3: be made, chat GPT didn't ask to be made. Pie

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Speaker 3: didn't ask to be here. We invoked them a very

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Speaker 3: small subset, but humans invoked them, and business leaders choose

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Speaker 3: to deploy. And there's a lot of incantatives that make

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Speaker 3: it feel like an obvious, inevitable choice, but it's still

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Speaker 3: a choice, you know, foam all being a really big

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Speaker 3: one financial pressure signaling to Wall Street that you're being innovative.

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Speaker 3: But it's still people, that's all.

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Speaker 1: People.

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Speaker 3: Machines haven't done anything. So that's a that's an important

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Speaker 3: like major asterisk.

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Speaker 1: You're saying choices will take your job.

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Speaker 3: Then, yeah, a human choices, human choices, and it's it

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Speaker 3: is somewhat inevitable, and that we have set up a

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Speaker 3: system where we measured a health of our economy on

401
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Speaker 3: this made up number called gross domestic product, which measures

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Speaker 3: certain amounts of economic activity which have nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with well being.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so we're already we've.

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Speaker 3: Like got ourselves play a game to achieve a high

406
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Speaker 3: score that is meaningless to the things we actually care about. Right,

407
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Speaker 3: GDP don't say anything about how your family feels about you,

408
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Speaker 3: or how you feel about yourself, or if you are

409
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Speaker 3: sick this morning or thriving this morning, if you have

410
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Speaker 3: a stomach ache, or if you feel alone, and so

411
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 3: there's other measures of happiness and contentment. And I don't

412
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Speaker 3: know how many people are dependent on snap benefits. I

413
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Speaker 3: think I think the percentage of your population dependent on

414
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Speaker 3: government assistance for basic food is a significantly more important

415
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Speaker 3: metric than gross domestic products. I think we flip the

416
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Speaker 3: world upside down in a second if we just, oh no,

417
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Speaker 3: we're changing every measure to just based on what the

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Speaker 3: least of us can afford. So okay, all right, so

419
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Speaker 3: that's all RANTI on jobs, there's gonna be massive impact

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Speaker 3: on jobs, and I think it's because it's what the

421
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 3: people who've designed these things intend. There's such a funny

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Speaker 3: thing happening here where the folks pushing or warning us

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Speaker 3: about the thing that they're pushing. Right, It's like if

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Speaker 3: I'm standing at your house pouring gasoline all over it,

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Speaker 3: lighting matches, and I'm like, you know your house has

426
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: a high risk of learning down, I'm just like grow.

427
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: It's you like, just stop pouring gas But then you

428
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Speaker 3: say it in such like an erudyite way, and you

429
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Speaker 3: say it in front of like a senate panel, so

430
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Speaker 3: it makes you feel you get to like cosplay responsibility

431
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: when you're actually playing out recklessness. And they're so intertwined,

432
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Speaker 3: and it's not I don't think it's as simple as

433
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Speaker 3: like bad people. But it's also not as complicated as

434
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Speaker 3: they're making it out to be. So they have said,

435
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 3: and I think specifically Sam Altman at Opening Eye has

436
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: said that their goal with artificial general intelligence is to

437
00:25:52,560 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 3: create technology that can perform, achieve, deliver, and and accomplish

438
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: all economically viable human labor. That's a pretty clear goal, right,

439
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 3: So you're actually so you're coming from my job, right.

440
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: You just said you put it in your like investor

441
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 3: statements and your slide. It's all over YouTube. It's not

442
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: a conspiracy. So you said that the loud part out loud.

443
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 3: So given that, I think we have to take that seriously.

444
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 3: And then this idea that okay, we're just going to

445
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: have machines and software, you know, hard and soft machines

446
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 3: do all this work, which is going to liberate us

447
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: to be poets and gardeners and pastors and parents. I

448
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 3: think that is beautiful. I also think that as bullshit.

449
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 3: I think every technology in the modern industrial era and

450
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: the modern capitalist era has people promoting that have promised

451
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 3: that women won't have they'll be freed from domestic work

452
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 3: because of a washing machine, will be freed from our

453
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: desks because of the BlackBerry. So now we're free to

454
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 3: work on our smartphones in bed and not talk to

455
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 3: our partners, and both partners have to work because we

456
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: have an economic system that doesn't provide enough for a family,

457
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 3: so we're I don't know. I have this poem that

458
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: I have this lines like, we're going to use these

459
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 3: technologies to produce too much, so we'll have to use

460
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 3: these technologies to consume too much. And I think there's

461
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: a cycle here where for a company head, they face

462
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 3: a very rational choice reduce your cost to maintain or

463
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: increase your output. Therefore, install machine labor force and shift

464
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: your orger chart to more synthetic than biological. And if

465
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 3: you have a bunch of people out there, there's still

466
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 3: humans out there who are not earning money anymore. Who's

467
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: going to buy your service or your product? And I

468
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 3: feel like a lot of folks aren't seeing that. And

469
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 3: I do love the idea of an art filled, family

470
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 3: filled community gardening future where all the mundane and dangerous

471
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: stuff is taken care of by some synthetic entity which

472
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: frees us. I just don't trust these people to get

473
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: us there.

474
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

475
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they have billionaires who want to be trillionaires

476
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: as their primary financial objective. They got to return that money.

477
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: So there's no evidence that these humans are going to

478
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: be the ones to lead us to that promised land.

479
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 3: We could create that promise land together. I think there's

480
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: something closer to it, but not with this bunch. I

481
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 3: think we had to swap out some of the casting.

482
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: So I hate to ask two two layered questions of

483
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: double layer questions, but I think you can you can

484
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: handle this one. So there is so study I can

485
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: find it. Maybe putting the show notes, I found that

486
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: was talking about like use in AI and demographics and

487
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: Asians are like the highest users of AI technologies, and

488
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: second is black people and.

489
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: Like white men were like way down on the list.

490
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that's astonishing to me that we use

491
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: them at such high rates. And so I want your

492
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: take on that and be because I think about you know,

493
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: we it's like social media. We over index on social media,

494
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: but we just use it. We don't necessarily buy and

495
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: large this is broad strokes by and large economic opportunity

496
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: in it. We just contribute our dances and et cetera.

497
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: So that's part A.

498
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: I want you to like just opine on that, okay,

499
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: And then part B is I was having this conversation

500
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: last night with an artist, UH visual artists, and he

501
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: was talking about who he works a lot in the community,

502
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: impoverished people in you know, inner city neighborhoods, And he

503
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: was talking about how they use AI. They do use

504
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: shat GPT to do things, but they don't use it

505
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: to help them broaden their worldview to get out of

506
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: the situation that they're in. So they use it for

507
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: task orients. I need to fill out a form. It

508
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: helped me to figure out what to put in this line.

509
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: But they don't think about, in his experience, why do

510
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: I have to fill out this form? I film in

511
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: this form for food stamps or whatever, and I need

512
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: to get off food stamps, you know. And I could

513
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: use it as my sparring, my mental sparring partner to

514
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: help me get out of the situation. So I want

515
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: you to appine on those two things if you want,

516
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: I think.

517
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: Oh this is this is very thoughtful, and that it's hard, right,

518
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 3: it's not. I don't have like pre baked. That's a

519
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: good job for you. And I'm just gonna I'm gonna,

520
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 3: I'm gonna think out loud and and see what emerges.

521
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: We black people, we are we've been in survival mode

522
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: in this country for a couple of hundred years and

523
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: just trying to survive of America, not supposed to be

524
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 3: here like this. Yeah right, we're kidnapping victims. We had

525
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 3: our language taken, we've had our families taken, we've had

526
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: our identities taken, our names taken, and we're still here,

527
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 3: and we have contributed to and helped the nation that

528
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: has officially hated us become a better version of itself.

529
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: We're caring a lot, Caroline. I think a lot of

530
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: that gets wired in. I think there's probably some epigenetic thing.

531
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: There's generational trauma. There's all kinds of stuff. We're not

532
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 3: the only people to experience it. Jewish people have generational trauma,

533
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: like all kinds of folks do. But for this question,

534
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: in this time, I think our Black experience in this

535
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: country may explain part of it, which is that we're

536
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 3: always looking for an angle. You know, we're trying to

537
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: find some shortcut because we were the shortcut for America.

538
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: We were the shortcut to become an economic and military

539
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: and cultural power. That was us. We were the cheat code,

540
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: we were the machines, we were the AI And so

541
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: how do we try to find our own advantage and

542
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 3: our own angle. I think it explains hustle culture. I

543
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: think it plays a whole bunch of things like why

544
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: should we respect your rules? So the idea that we

545
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: would take up AI to help us survive and reduce

546
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: the pain and the time and the expense of how

547
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: to make it in America, that doesn't surprise me. This

548
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: next level required to not just play the game better,

549
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: but redefine the game, change the rules altogether. Be like

550
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: this whole game is bs. We need to shift to

551
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: a different field and a whole different set of plays.

552
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: That requires spaciousness, that requires a level of group creativity,

553
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: that requires confidence and in a major bold vision and

554
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: aspiration for what's possible. And that's rare. That is rare,

555
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: and a lot of people probably don't feel like they

556
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: have time for that. When you want you want me

557
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: to think about to change the game, I'm just trying

558
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: to get on the field, right I just I just

559
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: want to play a little bit. I want to reduce

560
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 3: the rate of injury while I'm on the field. I

561
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: can't be thinking all the way up there. I don't

562
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: have time. I'm trying to eat, I'm trying to sleep,

563
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 3: I'm trying to provide and so in the system broadly,

564
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: speaking creates those conditions, so we don't feel like we

565
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: have the time to think about changing the rules of

566
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: the game. But that is what's required. And my hope,

567
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: my hope. You know, we're in a Kalulambitu's time. Man.

568
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 3: We've got a lot of crises going on the climate.

569
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: The earth is trying to shake us off, holding a

570
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: shoney on daga chief or a lions and he's like,

571
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 3: you know, the earth is a dog and where the

572
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: flees and the dog is shaken. The dog is shaking

573
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: real hard and that's happening in climate. Obviously, democracy in

574
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: our political situation is nuts. You know, we have a

575
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 3: secret police force, not so secret police force, but hiding

576
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 3: their faces, snatching people off the street, tackling folks at target.

577
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 3: That's not normal, right, That's not a healthy way to live.

578
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: And then nobody has faith in the economic situation. You know,

579
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: our sm P five hundred and third of it is

580
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 3: seven companies as a highly leveraged situation for an economy

581
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 3: to be in, to put it gently, So with all that,

582
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: I predict, I speculate that this system is not going

583
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: to hold and we will be forced into higher thinking

584
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 3: because the thinking that got us here, don't work no more,

585
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 3: and we're going to have to change the rules of

586
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 3: the game. And there are people who are already doing

587
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: that against us, you know, against against humans, against black people,

588
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 3: against life itself. They want ceo monarchs, and they're saying

589
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: it out loud. They think if you criticize them and

590
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 3: want to put rules on business behavior, that literally makes

591
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: you the Antichrist. That's Peter Teel, Like that's who that's

592
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: He's on a lecture circuit talking like that, like this

593
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: is the big thinker, right, this is this is their

594
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: best and he's saying pretty clearly that he wants monarchy

595
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: and that his critics are the Antichrist. Okay, so I

596
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: don't think the system's gonna I don't think that system

597
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 3: is gonna like hold. So we might as well take

598
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 3: the opportunity as as they're going to destroy a historical

599
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: choice is going to lead to the destruction of so

600
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: much of what we have known. Let's figure out what

601
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: we actually want to build here. Let's let's see can

602
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: we make a democracy that works. Can we make an

603
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 3: economy that is just and is fair? Can we give

604
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: this land back to the original people. Can we get

605
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 3: the reparations that we are owed.

606
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: Can we.

607
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 3: Have dignity for all of us? And what would that

608
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: look like? That? So I hope that we choose that

609
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 3: and are violently forced into that level of creativity. But

610
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: either way, I think that level of choice and that

611
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: level of creation is what's required and is what's coming.

612
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: I'd just rather do it in a nice way like

613
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: when a podcast.

614
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: Would you.

615
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 3: Than facing down somebody who thinks that I'm not Antichrist

616
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: because I don't because I think it's business should pay taxes.

617
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 3: What are you smoking? Bro?

618
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: So I officially asked zero of the questions that I

619
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: have prepared. But yeah, you're easy to talk too.

620
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: I love this. So in closing, like what are you

621
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: working on? So just do we know? Like what's where?

622
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: Where can we find Baritune day?

623
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 3: Working on so many things? Life with machines is the

624
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: main thing. This is, This is our show about us

625
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 3: more than it is about technology and and prompting us.

626
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: You know, what do we want and how do we

627
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: take this moment to try to set us on the

628
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 3: best possible path with all the momentum that's that's already

629
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: underway in terms of this AIE. So that's life with machines,

630
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:08,479
Speaker 3: with YouTube channel, we're on substack, we're in your podcast app.

631
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: And then me, I'm Baratunde b A r A t

632
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: U n D. I live on all the platforms under

633
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 3: that name. And the other thing I'm working on is

634
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: it's not so much a business thing. But I've hinted

635
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: at it but not been elicited that we have this

636
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 3: big co creative opportunity ahead of us in the United States.

637
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: But I think in the world more broadly, in light

638
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: of the two hundred and fifieth birthday of US in

639
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six Declaration of Independence, about to celebrate a big, beautiful,

640
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 3: awkward birthday party given the current circumstance, and I think

641
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 3: we have a truly, a legitimately beautiful opportunity to press

642
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: a kind of reset button and say, all right, what

643
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: are we about now? Why are we together? What vows

644
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: would we take to renew our bonds with each other?

645
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 3: And what is our vision for what this place should become.

646
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: Somebody else is already thinking about that. They want it

647
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: to be a dark, racist Texas place where a few

648
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 3: people hoard all the benefits I'm going to go out

649
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: and the limits, say most people don't want that. So

650
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 3: let's get together and let's remember who we are. And

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Speaker 3: so I've been working on a project that restores some

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Speaker 3: of the knowledge of democracy that was indigenous to this land,

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Speaker 3: practice here by the first people still here doing it.

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Speaker 3: And there'll be more on that through those channels. But

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Speaker 3: that is about centering interdependence and remembering who we really are,

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Speaker 3: not who they need us to be so they make

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Speaker 3: more money off of them.

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Speaker 2: Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity, Afro Tech,

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Speaker 2: Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hiart Media.

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Speaker 1: It's produced by Morgan Debaun and me Well.

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Speaker 2: Lucas, with the additional production support by Kate McDonald, Sah

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Speaker 2: and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis and

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Speaker 2: Love Beach. Learn more about My Guess Other Technish Off

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Speaker 2: is an innovators at afrotech dot Com video version.

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Speaker 3: This episode will drop to Black.

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Speaker 2: Tech Green Money on YouTube, So tap in, enjoy your

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Speaker 2: Black Tech Green Money, share us to somebody, go get

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Speaker 2: your money.

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Speaker 1: Peace and love,