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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hello.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Ak, how's he going?

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Speaker 1: It's going really well. How's it going with you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing good. It's been a good time out

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Speaker 2: here in Colorado.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about because our senior producer, Alexis and Morosi

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Speaker 1: is into trail running, or is interested in at least

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Speaker 1: hearing more about trail running. For my part, I am

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Speaker 1: petrified of trail running for two things, One hurting myself

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Speaker 1: because I'm clumsy, and two, I mean I think I've

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Speaker 1: done too many stories about people going missing in rural

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Speaker 1: areas or forested areas by themselves. So there's two things,

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Speaker 1: both self preservation. But I think you're going to demystify

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Speaker 1: some of.

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Speaker 2: That well, yes and no. Now you know, I got

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Speaker 2: into trail running out in California, and I was fortunate

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Speaker 2: that where I worked in Martinez, California, there were some

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Speaker 2: decent hills out there that surround the bay, and I

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Speaker 2: would go out and hit the trails and one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I really started to enjoy. Of course,

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Speaker 2: I love being out in nature. I love being out

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Speaker 2: in the trees. I love getting up on top of

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Speaker 2: the hill, you know, the ridge and being able to

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Speaker 2: have the sites. But I also found that once I

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Speaker 2: acclimated to running on uneven surfaces, it was so much

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Speaker 2: easier on my body. And I had actually read an

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Speaker 2: article and it was like maybe Runner's magazine or something similar,

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Speaker 2: where if you think about it, if you're running on pavement,

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Speaker 2: your feet are hitting that pavement the same way every time,

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Speaker 2: and those forces from each stride is the same throughout

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Speaker 2: your body, so you're much more susceptible to getting sort

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Speaker 2: of that chronic you know, wear and tear versus with

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Speaker 2: the trails.

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Speaker 3: Every footstep, your.

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Speaker 2: Foot is hitting it a little bit differently, the forces are

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Speaker 2: being distributed differently. When I first started trail running, my

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Speaker 2: ankle's hurt really.

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Speaker 1: Oh, because you're bracing yourself so much, right.

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Speaker 3: You're having to build up strength, you know.

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Speaker 2: But once I acclimated my lower body acclimated to the trails,

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Speaker 2: then I found that my body didn't feel like it

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Speaker 2: was getting beat up so much. If I'm on on asphalt,

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Speaker 2: you're just kind of in that steady state run with

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Speaker 2: the trails. I'm going up a hill, I'm going down

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Speaker 2: a hill. I'm having to jump over a small little ravine.

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Speaker 2: I'm having turkeys chase me. Turkeys. Yes, I came around

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Speaker 2: a quarter one time and there were these tiny little

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Speaker 2: turkey chick lits, but they were just lit, tiny ones,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm now being very careful. But then mom

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Speaker 2: was there, and Mom's doing the broken wing thing, trying

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Speaker 2: to get me the big bad predator away from her

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Speaker 2: little babies. And I was like, it's okay, it's okay.

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Speaker 2: As I'm running by, and then I finally get by,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I've got my headphones in. I'm listening

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Speaker 2: to my hard rock music. And I'm just going about

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Speaker 2: my trail and all of a sudden, I hear this

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Speaker 2: weird noise behind me, and I turn around and this

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Speaker 2: mother turkey has her head down, her wings spread, and

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Speaker 2: she's charging at me. It's like, okay, here's here is

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Speaker 2: my ambush predator up out in California. But you're concerned

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Speaker 2: about going out on the trails. There have been cases

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Speaker 2: where runners out on the trails they'll get jumped by

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Speaker 2: a mountain lion.

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Speaker 3: That's a big deal, right, That's not.

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Speaker 1: The predator I was thinking of. But okay, by a

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Speaker 1: mountain lion. Well don't people would you bring pepper spray

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Speaker 1: or mace or something with you?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't bring anything.

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Speaker 2: And I'm of course concerned about a mountain lion, you know,

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Speaker 2: because it is an ambush predator.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would never see it.

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Speaker 2: If it were to jump on me, I wouldn't hear

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Speaker 2: it because I've got my five finger death punch blasting

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Speaker 2: in my headphones. But I'm kind of willing to take

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Speaker 2: that risk because I like being out there so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's also out here in Colorado the black bear, but

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Speaker 2: they generally avoid you. They're not as big of a concern,

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Speaker 2: and they're not an ambush predator like the lion is. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, but one of the problems that I've run

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Speaker 2: into is, you know, now it's been she's almost ten

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Speaker 2: years ago. I tore my right calf. Oh yeah, and

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Speaker 2: I was just playing flag football with some staff on

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Speaker 2: a weekend and the medial part the inside head of

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Speaker 2: my calf muscle is like all rolled up in my leg.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know I had torn it, so I never

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Speaker 2: had surgery, but I've got a ton of scar tissue

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Speaker 2: in that calf, and so running on the trails, I

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Speaker 2: am constantly pulling my calf. So now that's where the

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Speaker 2: mountain biking has really replaced trail running for me. It

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Speaker 2: gets me out on the trails, it gets me out

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Speaker 2: there in nature, and there's a very fun aspect of

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Speaker 2: mountain biking. But I don't risk the calf injuries that

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Speaker 2: I was having with the trail running.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's impressive. You are a more aggressive athlete than

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Speaker 1: I am. I am scared to death of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: I love hiking. The kids really enjoy hiking, and when

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Speaker 1: we were in Scotland, we hiked Arthur's Seat, which was

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Speaker 1: incredible with amazing views, but being out in the wilderness,

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Speaker 1: I just for so many different reasons. I kind of

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Speaker 1: brace myself a little bit. But again, we always come

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Speaker 1: back to ways that you and I both cope with

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Speaker 1: stress and with anxiety, because we both have anxiety. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's another great example. You've got your kava,

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Speaker 1: you've got your mountain biking, and sometimes you'll do a

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Speaker 1: little tiny bit of running, and so I think you're

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Speaker 1: in the right state clearly, So that's great.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely am. I love being out here.

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Speaker 2: It's just you know, unfortunately, you know, I've also got

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Speaker 2: Raynod's syndrome where my hands and feet kind of shut

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Speaker 2: down in the cold. They become very painful, and so

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Speaker 2: I can't really do the outdoor physical activities. Even with

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Speaker 2: gloves on, they still shut down. It's like my body

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Speaker 2: just knows it's super cold out.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So what does that mean you can't walk well?

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Speaker 1: Or what does that present?

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Speaker 2: As it's the body is in essence sensing that it's

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Speaker 2: very cold, and it wants to keep the core the

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Speaker 2: blood supply to the core, so it starts shutting down

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Speaker 2: your peripheral arteries and so I initially fill it in

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Speaker 2: my fingers down to my toes and it can progress

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Speaker 2: to my entire feet or my hands.

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Speaker 3: I start losing sensation.

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Speaker 2: They become very painful, shocking at how much it hurts,

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Speaker 2: and it's so frustrating. It's something that I've inherited for

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Speaker 2: my mom. Three of my kids also inherited it from me,

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Speaker 2: and it's common. Yeah, a lot of people have it.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't realize I had it until I moved

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Speaker 2: out here to Colorado because it really gets cold here

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Speaker 2: versus where I lived in California. Wow.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've been talking a lot about rural areas

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Speaker 1: and running and you know, being super active, and the

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Speaker 1: case that I'm going to talk to you about today

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Speaker 1: is the opposite. It's in a big city, I think

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Speaker 1: the biggest city we've been in so far, Chicago. So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and set the scene for this story.

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Speaker 1: It's nineteen ten, Chicago South Side, and Chicago is a

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Speaker 1: really really big city. Of course it is now, but

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Speaker 1: it's the fifth largest city in the world at this

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Speaker 1: time period, and it's a really happening city. So I'll

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Speaker 1: set the scene because we're going to have to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about race relations in the city. This

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Speaker 1: is a neighborhood on the South side of Chicago is

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Speaker 1: on edge because there have been a recent rash of

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Speaker 1: home invasions. There is high crime in this time period

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ten, and there is a high immigration area

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Speaker 1: right of Southside which are a lot of Irish European descendants.

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Speaker 1: And then you have a section of that area of

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Speaker 1: the city that is also predominantly black, and the black

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Speaker 1: section is really vibrant, but the city is not investing

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Speaker 1: in black businesses. They're investing in themselves. So you have

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Speaker 1: this city within a city.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and my understanding ill Chicago back around this time

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Speaker 2: was not only the largest city, but also was the

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Speaker 2: city from an architectural standpoint, had all the high rise

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Speaker 2: of skyscrapers back in the day, even more so than

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Speaker 2: what New York had. I don't know if it was

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Speaker 2: at the nineteen ten time, but that really just shows

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Speaker 2: how big of a city Chicago was back then.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was really congested. I'm always interested in

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Speaker 1: transportation at the turn of the century, so it was

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Speaker 1: congested with people with a lot of train travel, smoke,

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Speaker 1: a lot of pollution, just your typical big city, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people coming in from the countryside. So what

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Speaker 1: you would say is a melting pot, but a melting

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Speaker 1: pot that's sort of divided at the same time. So

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Speaker 1: in this neighborhood in the south side called Washington Heights,

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Speaker 1: at the turn of the century, Washington Heights had a

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Speaker 1: reputation of being a place where all of the railroad

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Speaker 1: workers lived. And of course, you know, railroads were incredibly

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Speaker 1: important modes of transportation, along with steamers that would be

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Speaker 1: on the various lakes. So these are major modes of transportation.

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Speaker 1: And the people who worked there were respected and really important,

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Speaker 1: and they congregated together and they were hard workers. So

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Speaker 1: the family that we're centering on is the Hiller family,

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Speaker 1: and the patriarch of the family is a guy named

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Speaker 1: Clarence Hiller, hard working guy. He was a railroad cl

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Speaker 1: So he is in this Washington Heights neighborhood we're talking

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Speaker 1: about where there are a lot of European folks there,

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Speaker 1: so German, Swedish, Irish residents. Again, it's a neighborhood that's

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Speaker 1: on edge because there's been several home invasions and they

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Speaker 1: go to sleep one night at September nineteenth, nineteen ten,

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Speaker 1: relatively cool evening. His family goes to sleep. Clarence is

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Speaker 1: a father of four. He has a wife. One of

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Speaker 1: his children is a fifteen year old teenager. So Clarence

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Speaker 1: is asleep and the house is very, very dark. They

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Speaker 1: have electricity, which some people didn't in nineteen ten. So

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Speaker 1: they had electricity, but they often slept with a gas

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Speaker 1: powered night light that they would put on the ground

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Speaker 1: in the hallways just for people who needed to use

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Speaker 1: the restroom. You know, four kids and a wife and

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Speaker 1: a husband. So when Clarence Hiller wakes up in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night, he notices at two am there's

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Speaker 1: something strange has happened because the night light near their

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Speaker 1: daughter's room, the fifteen year old teenager, the night light

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Speaker 1: on the ground in front of the daughter's room has

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Speaker 1: been extinguished. So a very very dark night.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and what is the fuel for this type of light.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just your typical kerosene lamp that you

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Speaker 1: just light up and keep on the ground just so

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Speaker 1: people didn't trip over stuff. I mean, the way they

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Speaker 1: described this house is really dark. Everything is shut, they're shuttered.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this is an unusual circumstance. I would imagine

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Speaker 2: if it was low on kerosene, assuming that's the fuel

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Speaker 2: that it would possibly burn out overnight, and then I'd think, okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe they have a routine to make sure that this

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Speaker 2: night light has sufficient fuel to get through the night.

219
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And what's interesting is Clarence isn't woken up by

220
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: a noise. He just wakes up, probably to use the restroom.

221
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Speaker 1: At two am, he notices this light's out. He thinks

222
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: it's strange. Like you said, there's typically been enough fuel

223
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 1: to last throughout the night. That's why it's a night light.

224
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Speaker 1: And he goes down the hall to investigate. And when

225
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Speaker 1: he gets to his daughter's room, the door's open and

226
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Speaker 1: there's a man standing there. He cannot see the man.

227
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Speaker 1: It is that dark. He cannot identify him. He sees

228
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,199
Speaker 1: a man. They face each other and they fight. This

229
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,480
Speaker 1: guy wakes up at two in the morning. He's barely awake.

230
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,679
Speaker 1: They get into a huge fight. There's a struggle and

231
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 1: they both together wrap together, tumble down the staircase and

232
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Speaker 1: at the bottom, the man pulls out a gun and

233
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Speaker 1: he shoots. He shoots Clarence twice and Clarence is dead

234
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 1: and the guy runs. Okay, So the police are called

235
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Speaker 1: and they talk to the daughter, and the daughter has

236
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Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted and she can't identify him either. The

237
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 1: only thing she says is that he was there and

238
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,000
Speaker 1: his light that he used was a match, which seems

239
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:44,840
Speaker 1: chancy to me. I guess it was enough to get

240
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 1: into the room and get the layout of the room.

241
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Speaker 1: I mean, what do you think about that?

242
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Speaker 3: Did the father live long enough to provide any last

243
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,199
Speaker 3: statement to say I just saw a man couldn't identify

244
00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 3: him or is this just based on the daughter who

245
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 3: is actually assaulted can't identify who this man is.

246
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 1: Well, the report that I read, he must have lived

247
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 1: long enough because Clarence couldn't identify him. And I don't

248
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 1: know if that was to the police or his wife

249
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 1: ran downstairs or someone ran downstairs and he just couldn't

250
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,439
Speaker 1: identify him, which seems incredible. It must have been really

251
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 1: dark to fight with someone that close. But I guess

252
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 1: if you're adrenalinees going and you're scared and somebody is

253
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 1: attacking you, then maybe you're not concentrating on details like face, right.

254
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: That doesn't surprise me because here this is something which

255
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:27,959
Speaker 2: is going to be very traumatic.

256
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 3: It's pitch black.

257
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,079
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised at all that the father wouldn't have

258
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,760
Speaker 2: in his last breast any details to provide to whoever's

259
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,360
Speaker 2: interviewing him, nor the teenage girl if it's that dark. Now,

260
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 2: the use of the match sounds like the offender likely

261
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 2: extinguished the night light and then relied upon a match

262
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,960
Speaker 2: or maybe a set of matches in order to be

263
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 2: able to navigate through the house to be able to see.

264
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 2: And that shows some pre planning. Oh yeah, I don't know.

265
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 2: Maybe back in nineteen ten, people carried matches all the time,

266
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,600
Speaker 2: you know, smoking, Yeah, it's a big thing, and so

267
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,200
Speaker 2: this is just something that he would have had on

268
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 2: his person. But these matches have, you know, limited time

269
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,200
Speaker 2: in which they're lit, and so I'm kind of wondering

270
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 2: did they see other burnt matches that might indicate how

271
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 2: long the offender, after extinguishing the night light, was in

272
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 2: the room or in the hallway wherever these maybe other

273
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 2: burnt matches are found.

274
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you're right. Of course, he brought

275
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,560
Speaker 1: a gun, so there's some I'm assuming some pre planning

276
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 1: there too. I just had never heard of anybody doing

277
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 1: that before. So he lit the match long enough, essentially

278
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,040
Speaker 1: to get the lay of the land in the bedroom,

279
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: he climbs into bed with her, he sexually assaults her,

280
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 1: and then he runs out, runs into the dad. They fight,

281
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: go down the stairwell. He pulls out a gun, shoots

282
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,680
Speaker 1: the dad. Dad dies, and he is on the run.

283
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,680
Speaker 1: So this is, you know, obviously very traumatizing for the family,

284
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,280
Speaker 1: and this is a man who was very important into

285
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 1: the family. So they're trying to give police a lot

286
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,760
Speaker 1: of information. Police, of course respond immediately. They look around.

287
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 1: They're looking for physical evidence. The only real piece at

288
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,680
Speaker 1: the scene of physical evidence. Well, there's two pieces of

289
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 1: physical evidence. One is a cartridge of the gun. It

290
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like they retrieved bullets. It sounds like they

291
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 1: retrieved the cartridges. Okay, tell me if I'm thinking this correctly,

292
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 1: If they find the gun that they think fired these cartridges,

293
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,880
Speaker 1: can they say that this cartridge cartridge a came from

294
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 1: that gun or is it only bullets and the rifling

295
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,760
Speaker 1: that can point to a specific gun.

296
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 2: When you're dealing with spent cartridge cases out of a firearm,

297
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,320
Speaker 2: which if that's what they actually had, then that tells me, okay,

298
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 2: you're dealing with a pistol versus a revolver. Are you

299
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 2: sure these are spent cartridge cases versus whole rounds.

300
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: Well, they call them cartridge cases, okay, And maybe they're

301
00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,480
Speaker 1: wrong because it was a revolver. I don't know difference.

302
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's interesting, that's why you're here. Yeah, you know.

303
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 2: So I would say if he had a revolver and

304
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 2: you have unfired rounds that have dropped out, it's possible

305
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,280
Speaker 2: maybe he had something like that in his pocket as

306
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,800
Speaker 2: extra rounds, you know, and these weren't something that came

307
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,000
Speaker 2: out of the gun, okay. Or he opened up the

308
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 2: cylinder of the gun at some point that allowed some of.

309
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 3: The rounds to come out. Okay, I don't know, now rounds.

310
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 2: If these are unspent rounds and all they've had done

311
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,359
Speaker 2: to them is been chambered into the revolver, it's unlikely

312
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 2: to be able to associate those rounds to the revolver

313
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,720
Speaker 2: based on the marks.

314
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,160
Speaker 1: What about fingerprints, If it's a cartridge something they had

315
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,320
Speaker 1: to load, is it possible if it's a good sample,

316
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 1: to pull a solid fingerprint off of a cartridge, either

317
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 1: a spent one or just one that was a backup.

318
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 2: Well, if it's a round that has not been fired,

319
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 2: there's a greater likelihood of being able to get the

320
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 2: finger prints because it hasn't been subjected to the heat

321
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,720
Speaker 2: of the firing process or the expansion. You imagine when

322
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: you fire a round and a gun, you know, the

323
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 2: gunpowder combusts and rapidly expands. You get the heat generating,

324
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,479
Speaker 2: you get the cartridge case walls expanding against the chamber

325
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 2: that it's in, and especially if it's in a pistol

326
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,920
Speaker 2: where now it's being extracted during the firing process.

327
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 3: There's a lot of mechanical actions that can disrupt a fingerprint.

328
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 2: However, today we can, at times it's rare, but recover

329
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 2: prints off the sides of spent cartridge cases. So that

330
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 2: is a possibility, but it depends on the caliber. If

331
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 2: this is just a very small caliber round, like let's

332
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 2: say a twenty two, that diameter that let's say a

333
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 2: finger touching you know, the side of that cartridge, there's

334
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 2: not a lot of the fingerprint that's really being deposited

335
00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 2: versus a.

336
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 3: Larger cartridge like a shotgun.

337
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 2: Shotgun for sure, but like even just a you know,

338
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,399
Speaker 2: thirty eight, or especially when you start getting into the

339
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 2: forty four, forty five caliber rounds, where now you have

340
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 2: more surface area for the fingerprint to be deposited on

341
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 2: the side of the cartridge.

342
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 3: Case.

343
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,000
Speaker 1: Well, luckily for the police in Chicago in nineteen ten,

344
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 1: they didn't need to rely on the cartridge to pull

345
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,879
Speaker 1: a fingerprint. They had something much, much much better. Oh really,

346
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 1: I know, And this is what makes this case significant.

347
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 1: Whomever broke into the house sexually assaulted the teenage girl

348
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 1: and killed Clarence Hiller had gotten in through the kitchen window.

349
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 1: They had just painted the outside of the house, including

350
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 1: the wooden ledge outside the kitchen window. So when he

351
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,919
Speaker 1: put his hands down, it left four fingerprints in the paint.

352
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: Oh that dried, Yeah, okay, like they had just done

353
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,160
Speaker 1: it earlier that night. So they are left with this sample.

354
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 1: They saw it off. I don't know if that's normal,

355
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: but they saw off that part of the window. So

356
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 1: and take it back and preserve it and do everything.

357
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't know what they would do in nineteen ten,

358
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 1: But would that be a standard practice, is to take

359
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: the whole sample, or would you have done it in

360
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:11,479
Speaker 1: the field.

361
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 2: So fingerprints left in this soft paint, so these would

362
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 2: be visible prints. Most people are thinking about fingerprint evidence

363
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: left at a crime scene that aren't visible, you know,

364
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 2: you have to use a process to actually make them visible,

365
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 2: such as black powder or super glue or a variety

366
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 2: of techniques. Those types of prints that are not visible

367
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 2: are latent fingerprints. This print, which is in this recording

368
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 2: media of this drawing paint, is what we call a

369
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 2: plastic print. It's an impression. It's like if you were

370
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 2: to step in mud and leave your shoe print in

371
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 2: that mud. That's the same thing that happens with these

372
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 2: plastic types of prints. And I've seen, like I've got

373
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 2: a case in which I had a plastic print left

374
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,199
Speaker 2: by the killer on the side of a candle in

375
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 2: the soft wax.

376
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,120
Speaker 3: So that's what's going on there.

377
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 2: So this is a great form of evidence, especially if

378
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 2: you have four fingers from the offender being deposited possibly

379
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,959
Speaker 2: I'm assuming in the anatomically correct order, So that adds

380
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 2: a level of confidence when there's going to be a

381
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 2: fingerprint comparison being done. Now, preserving this type of print, yeah,

382
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:24,880
Speaker 2: you know, it is possible.

383
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: And even to this day, there may be.

384
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 2: Times where we would cut out the surface in which

385
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 2: this print has been recorded on, but that would only

386
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 2: be after we have good photographs of it. Photography of

387
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 2: these we always do out in the field, and then

388
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,679
Speaker 2: if we feel that there's better ways to record that

389
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: print back in the lab using mounted cameras and better lighting,

390
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: et cetera, than what we can bring out in the field,

391
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 2: then we would consider cutting out the surface and bringing

392
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 2: it back with us.

393
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: You know, and as we know, the most important thing

394
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 1: is the really clean sample. That's what the priority is.

395
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: So here are the prints as printed in the newspaper

396
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: that they captured from this windowsill. Does this seem like

397
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: a pretty high quality.

398
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

399
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: I'm looking at these three prints, and these are also

400
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 2: taken into account that these were printed in the newspaper,

401
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: so we've seen a loss of qualities just from that

402
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: printing process to what I'm seeing here, So they are

403
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 2: likely much higher quality from what they recovered from the

404
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: crime scene. And these prints are on the order of

405
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: close to like what we would call a roll to print,

406
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: you know, when we end up having to print a

407
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 2: person and we roll each finger and get high high

408
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 2: quality prints. These are excellent quality prints. This is rare

409
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,880
Speaker 2: to get prints like this at a crime scene.

410
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: They're very very very clean. I can see all the

411
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: swirls and whirls and everything. And I'm a lay person,

412
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: so I was pretty impressed with this. I guess this

413
00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 1: is what you get when what did you call it?

414
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: Plastic prints? Is that what it was?

415
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 2: It's a plastic print where basically the finger has pressed

416
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 2: into this soft paint, and the paint just became this

417
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: perfect recording medium to capture all the details. And when

418
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: you start talking about the whorlds, the loops, et cetera,

419
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 2: which are your class characteristics of fingerprints, but what I'm

420
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 2: also seeing is I'm seeing these smaller characteristics that are

421
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: used to help affect a comparison, and that's your ridge detail,

422
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 2: where now you're looking at an ending rich, a bifurcation,

423
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 2: a trifurcation. There are some clear areas in those prints,

424
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: and that's where the person who left those prints. Did

425
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: he have any calluses, did he have any warts other

426
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 2: things on his fingers that can also add to some

427
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: further individualization of that print.

428
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: Well, in a little bit, we're going to need to

429
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 1: talk about expert testimony and what makes someone an expert,

430
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: and we'll talk a little bit about the trial. But

431
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: first we have a suspect he was caught shortly after

432
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: he was out at two thirty three o'clock in the morning,

433
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: when he was in a neighborhood he wasn't supposed to

434
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: be in in that time period. He was a black man.

435
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: His name was Thomas Jennings. And I'll tell you kind

436
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: of a little bit later about Thomas Jennings. But he

437
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: was found very very quickly. You know, they had the Prince. However,

438
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: there were many more suspicious things about Thomas Jennings. So

439
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: they found him with a revolver that they say had

440
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: been recently fired, and the cartridges matched those found near

441
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: Hiller's body. Now, I guess in nineteen ten it would

442
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: have been possible. How do you know if a gun's

443
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: been recently fired?

444
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: There really is no way to put a time frame

445
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: onto a gun and say it's been recently.

446
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 3: Fired versus previously fired.

447
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: At some point, you know, there are indicators such as

448
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 2: unburnt gunpowder particles that may still be deposit on surfaces

449
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: that would naturally have fallen off or have been wiped

450
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: off in the time after it was fired to the

451
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 2: time that it's actually being recorded. I think I've seen

452
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: some you know, old movies or TV shows where the

453
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: smell of the firearm is used to say, oh, you know,

454
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: it was just recently fired, and it's like, no, I

455
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: am not somebody who would put any weight on that

456
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: statement at all.

457
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had wondered if it's like you put your

458
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: hand on the hood of a car and you can tell,

459
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: unless it's hot weather, you can kind of tell the

460
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: car just stopped running at some point. So it's not

461
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: the same thing.

462
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 3: How many shots were fired at the victim? Two? Two?

463
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: You don't know this.

464
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 2: This gun is not going to be very hot and

465
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: it's not going to retain any of that heat for

466
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: any significant period of time.

467
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: So I think that that statement is misleading.

468
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's not one that that could be reliably ascertained.

469
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 1: Okay, So they say that this is the type of

470
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 1: gun that was used to shoot mister Hiller, and they

471
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: know that just because it's the same type of revolver

472
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: that would have used those cartridges. They're not talking about

473
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: a striations or anything else with that, They're just saying

474
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: same type of gun. I don't think they're able to

475
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: place it definitively as the gun. The gun.

476
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: Well, if all they're relying upon is they've got these

477
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: unspent rounds, unfired rounds that are left at the crime scene.

478
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 2: You know, they're going to be able to see the

479
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: head stamp markings in terms of the brand of the round,

480
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: the caliber of the round. It's rim ammunition for a revolver.

481
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: And then they open this revolver off of Jennings and

482
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: it has the same head stamps, the same caliber, and

483
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: so you say, okay, well here's a connection. I think

484
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: I'm still a little bit puzzled why there's unspent rounds

485
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 2: inside the victim's house. I know, and not to be presumptuous,

486
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: but you know, of course maybe cynical, knowing how we

487
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: are dealing with a nineteen ten Chicago area where there's

488
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: probably a lot of racial tensions and law enforcement is

489
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: focusing in on this black man that's in a white neighborhood.

490
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: YEP.

491
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: Is it possible that they remove some of the rounds

492
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: from his revolver and then said it was collected from

493
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: the crime scene you had, oh, it's planted evidence.

494
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: We just had an episode about that with the Coyote Flat,

495
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: Remember where we had Jack Ryan who prosecutor admitted that

496
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: he set him up. Certainly not unheard of, so one

497
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: last thing about Thomas Jennings. Thomas Jennings was wearing a

498
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: bloody coat. I know this looks bad.

499
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: It started to look very bad, Okay, but I need

500
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: you to.

501
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: Be almost like the journalist cop who's really really open minded.

502
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: So a bloody jacket, it's human blood. They didn't even

503
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: bother testing it. You'll find out in a little bit,

504
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: but they're just thinking black man wrong neighborhood got a

505
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: gun and a bloody jacket.

506
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: Sure, well, you know, in terms of testing the blood

507
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: in nineteen ten, basically besides saying we've got blood here,

508
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: there's not much more they could have done. From my

509
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: perspective under the case circumstances, why would victim's blood be

510
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: on his coat. Now we have two victims inside the house.

511
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: We have the girl that's been sexually assaulted. That assault

512
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: can most certainly have led to bloodshed. So you know,

513
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: does she have any bleeding injuries, whether it be from

514
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: violence being inflicted on the outside of her body, or

515
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 2: is she menstruating, or is it from the actual sexual assault.

516
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 2: And then of course we have the combat with the

517
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 2: father as well as the gunshots. And now does the

518
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: father have lacerations or bleeding injuries from the combat, from

519
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: the fall down the stairs where they are in close contact,

520
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: where now you can see whether there it'd be blood

521
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: transferred onto the offender's coat, or did the offender manipulate

522
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: you know, let's say father's shot, he goes down, does

523
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: the offender go up and manipulate the body and possibly

524
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 2: get some blood onto his coat?

525
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: You know.

526
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: So there's things in terms of what I would need

527
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: to know to assess the relevance of this blood stains,

528
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: as well as does it fit in to the context

529
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: of the case as we know it at the crime scene.

530
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: Well, things get worse for Thomas Jennings as far as

531
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: evidence goes. And I know this seems open and shut,

532
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: and it's not so. Thomas Jennings has an injury, which

533
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: is one explanation for the blood. Sure, the injury when

534
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: he was examined by a doctor is consistent with a

535
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: bullet grazing him. Now, first of all, if you're shooting someone,

536
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: how does that happen because your arm in your own

537
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: way or what would cause that?

538
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: Well, no, that's entirely possible.

539
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: You know, your off hand, you know, if your off

540
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: hand is in front of the muzzle, of the weapon

541
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: at the time it's discharged. Then yes, you could have

542
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: either your arm or your hand having a bullet wound

543
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 2: to it or a graze wound. So do we know

544
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: where this injury was on Jennings?

545
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: It looks like his arm is what I read, So

546
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what that. I still can't picture that.

547
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: Well, that's you know, I can picture.

548
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: Let's say he's in combat with the father, he's holding

549
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: on to the father, pulls a gun and shoots, or

550
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: they're struggling over the gun.

551
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: They're on the ground. I think, I bet that's what happens.

552
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: They're on the.

553
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: Ground and his arm just happens to be in the way.

554
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: But it's just a graze, yep. You know, I've seen

555
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: grazes on shooting victims in which it looks like a

556
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: linear abrasion. And I've also seen grazes in which the

557
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: bullet has literally tunneled a groove through the victim's arm

558
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: or leg and literally pulls tissue out, and those wounds

559
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: can be very bloody.

560
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: Do we know the extent of this graze on Jennings.

561
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: They're just calling it a grazing of a bullet, which

562
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: is consistent. It doesn't sound like a grooving, so he

563
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: just said consistent. The doctor did not say definitively, so

564
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: it must have been a little bit more vague. There

565
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: are two other little things I'll tell you. One is

566
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: that engineings shoes was a sand rock dirt mix that

567
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: was consistent with the same kind of mix that was

568
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: deposited on the floor in the house that was also

569
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: from the neighborhood. I'm not sure that really, I don't

570
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: know they're trying to place them at the scene. Obviously,

571
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem very reliable to me, because anybody could

572
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: have dragged that in right.

573
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: Well, that's where it's assessing. Is this soil material or

574
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: construction material? You know, what is the source of it?

575
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: Is that the type of soil that is within this neighborhood. Yeah,

576
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: and it's basically ubiquitous in the environment. At that point,

577
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: you go, yeah, you can't put much weight on it.

578
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: It's as well, it's interesting that he also has it,

579
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: but he's walking around in the neighborhood, you know, so

580
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: it really kind of negates the importance of that evidence.

581
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 3: So tell me more.

582
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious to see how this case stacks

583
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: up against Jennings.

584
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: Well, this is not going to surprise you at all.

585
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: But he doesn't have an alibi for that night. I mean,

586
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: he has no reliable alibi. Okay, so he's not helping

587
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: himself in any way whatsoever. And I have said this

588
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: before another podcast. I wouldn't have an alibi eighty percent

589
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: of the time, probably if somebody accused me of a crime.

590
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: I'm by myself. I'm driving around, listening to music, you know,

591
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm just like roaming around on my own sometimes. So

592
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: I don't put a lot of weight in alibis. But again,

593
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: nineteen ten, that would be hard to check anyway. I mean,

594
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: as you've said, no CCTV, no credit card receipts that

595
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: you would have really been able to track down easily,

596
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, right.

597
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: You know, In terms of the veracity of any alibi

598
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: that he could have given, the chances are they would

599
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: not have been able to truly verify it to the

600
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: standard that I would feel confident in this day and age.

601
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: But he must have made statements about why he's walking

602
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: around in this particular neighborhood.

603
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: He stay silent, Oh, he stays silent. And he asked

604
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: for an attorney for a book defender.

605
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: Okay, he is.

606
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: Quite as a mouse through this whole thing, which is smart. Probably.

607
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, as much as I don't don't want bad guys

608
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: to lawyer up, it really is the best thing to do.

609
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: My dad, the law professor, said, don't call me, call

610
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: an attorney. Here's my friend. Put his number into your phone,

611
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: and then you can call me later. Don't call me

612
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: first though. Okay, So things get from pretty bad. I

613
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: consider this a pretty difficult case already against Thomas Jennings two,

614
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: even worse because now this is where your super duper

615
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: sleuthing analysis will be helpful. So people in the neighborhood say, yeah,

616
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: this guy looks like a guy who's been sort of

617
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: roaming around. A neighbor of the Hillers reports a home

618
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: invasion same night, right before the Hiller's home invasion happened. Okay, okay,

619
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: so listen to this. This details. This woman's name is

620
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: Missus McNabb. Missus McNabb woke up to find a man

621
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: holding a match in her bedroom doorway same way with

622
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: the fifteen year old daughter of mister Hiller. He sexually

623
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: assaults her and then leaves. So we can talk all

624
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: about the five pack six pack of how people identify

625
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: either via photo or with a lineup. But she would

626
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: testify that based on Jennings's height in his build, that

627
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: this was him. So just to clarify, this is a

628
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: white neighborhood and this is a black man, and we

629
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: know that cross racial misidentification happens all the time. Tell

630
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: me your thoughts on that. So, first of all, it

631
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: sounds like somebody sexually assaulted two people in less than

632
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: an hour.

633
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: First, maybe to address the cross racial misidentification. You know,

634
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: for me, when we start talking about witness identification, your

635
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: standard eyewitness that just by itself is often faulty. Yep,

636
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: in these considerations with McNab, you know, mill of the

637
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: night Again, it's dark, how much detail is she's seeing

638
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: and she's being sexually assaulted, you know, so this is

639
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 2: a traumatic event for her. Yeah, so just her as

640
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: a witness is going to be potentially sketchy unless she

641
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: provides really specific details that matches up with let's say Jennings,

642
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: you know, when he is stopped by law enforcement. Now,

643
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 2: when we get into the cross racial misidentification, I do

644
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: know that their studies showing that there is a difference. Yeah, Well,

645
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: it's cross racial, the accuracy drops, and there's racial bias

646
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: that is built in as well. So now when you

647
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: get into cross racial misidentification, you now have a much

648
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,479
Speaker 2: lower accuracy rate of somebody actually picking the right person out.

649
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: The Innocence Project in New York says that you are

650
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: fifty percent more likely to misidentify somebody who is not

651
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: of your race fifty percent, and then on top of

652
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: that seventy five percent about seventy five percent of wrongful convictions.

653
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: Part of those are because, like you said, of bad eyewitnesses.

654
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: So that's why we talk about in these cases when

655
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: you're talking about eyewitness testimony is not just science, but

656
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: that alone, in almost all cases really shouldn't be something

657
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: that's totally relied on by the police of the prosecutors.

658
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: It's just it's really dangerous. So that's starting to be

659
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: what happened here.

660
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: Right, you know, And that's where we will probably talk

661
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: about different types of evidence in this case and how

662
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: much weight should be put on that evidence. And for me,

663
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: eyewitness testimony, you may want to introduce that for the

664
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: try or a fact in order to consider, but there

665
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: also has to be that cautionary guidance provided saying, recognize

666
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: that this type of witness testimony really does not have

667
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: a lot of racity when you take a look at

668
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 2: the statistics.

669
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if you made up that phrase. What

670
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: did you say, cautionary cautionary guidance. I don't think that's

671
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: a real phrase, but I'm going to use it throughout

672
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: this whole episode.

673
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: I just pulled that out of thin air.

674
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: You mismashed two things. I love it, though, So I'm

675
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: glad you said that cautionary guidance because we're going to

676
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: have some of that coming up. So let's look at

677
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: the preponderance of evidence, as we might say. So, you've

678
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: got a man, several people have said they've seen him

679
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: in the area. A woman said that she was sexually

680
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: assaulted based on his height and his size, looks like

681
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: the same guy. You've got Thomas Jennings in a bloody coat.

682
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: You've got him with a revolver that appears to match

683
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: the type of gun that killed mister Hiller. He has

684
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: a wound that sounds consistent with the grazing of a bullet,

685
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: perhaps during combat. You've got sand, which we've kind of

686
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: blown off from his shoes. So we've got all of

687
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: these little pieces of evidence coming in, but most importantly,

688
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: let us not forget we have that fantastic fingerprint, four

689
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 1: of them from the window sill. So the prosecution puts

690
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: him on trial for first degree murder. He is very quiet,

691
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 1: wants to see how things lay out. He basically says,

692
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: I was never there. There's nothing you can do to

693
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: prove any of this, even though he didn't have an alibi.

694
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: But as we said, I would not have an alibi

695
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: much of the time the trial starts, the most important

696
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: part of this would be the fingerprints, because that's what

697
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: the prosecution really is relying on. His defense, Jennings defense says, listen,

698
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, if you pull all this stuff apart, yes

699
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: it looks kind of sketchy, but none of this points

700
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: directly to the Hiller murder and the sexual assaults. You

701
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: don't have anybody who's a reliable witness. It was really

702
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: dark cross racial misidentification, which they even pointed to in

703
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. But you've got the fingerprints. Of course, his

704
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: fingerprints match. Four different fingerprint experts took the stand and

705
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: said unequivocally, this man did it. It's a fact no

706
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: one else could have put these prints down, They're matched,

707
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: and that's it. Here's the issue. The issue is the

708
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: first time that anyone has ever used a fingerprint and

709
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: a criminal trial is this trial. It is brand new,

710
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: and fingerprinting had been around for a long long time,

711
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: but really the first criminal trial in Europe was an

712
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty six, so just sixty years earlier, and the

713
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: US had never really caught up. The first time that

714
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: Scotland Yard brought it to the US was just a

715
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: few years earlier. So this was a groundbreaking case. But

716
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: this is what I want you to react to. You

717
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: have four men who are on the stand separately. They

718
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: each have used fingerprints, you know, many many many times

719
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: in criminal cases. They're with the police department, and each

720
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 1: one of them says unequivocally, this man did it. Here

721
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: is your proof. It is a fact. And to the

722
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: defense team, that declaration is a problem. And if this

723
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: were now they would call a Daubert hearing because this

724
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: is a brand new technique that people are now purporting

725
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: to be DNA evidence.

726
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: Essentially, are these fingerprint witnesses are they making this statement

727
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: that Jennings is responsible for the homicide or are they

728
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: saying he left the prints on the window ledge.

729
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: They said he did it, and it's because there's fingerprints

730
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: on the ledge. Okay, that's the issue. That's why this

731
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: ends up going to the State Supreme Court, because they

732
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: said it's essentially like saying this guy left DNA evidence

733
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: on the woman. It was that serious. Sure, you know,

734
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: the jury here's that. What else are you going to do.

735
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: You've got somebody who's sang, this is the person who

736
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: did it, and they don't know enough about fingerprinting to

737
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: be skeptical.

738
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 2: And from just an expert witness standpoint, this is showing

739
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 2: most certainly cognitive bias. They knew the circumstances, the totality

740
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: of the circumstances in the case, and they themselves acted

741
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: as a juror and rendered an opinion on to guilt.

742
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: So this is an inappropriate type of testimony for an

743
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: expert to give. I'm kind of curious to see what

744
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: they said about the fingerprints. How strongly did they say

745
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: these fingerprints matched Jennings.

746
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: One hundred percent is what they said. Now, let me

747
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: tell you, I come from a very skeptical background about fingerprinting,

748
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: because it's not just the quality of the print. Then

749
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen ten. It would have been the quality of

750
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: the examiner. These are pattern matching, and pattern matching can

751
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: be problematic if you don't have somebody who knows what

752
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: they're doing. Now you do have four different people all

753
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: saying the same thing. Now, now they're all with the

754
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: police department, they're not independent.

755
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, though, I will say taking a look at the

756
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 2: quality of the princes that they had, and they had

757
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 2: four of those prints probably from the same hand, Yeah,

758
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: there's no question in my mind that they drew the

759
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: right conclusion that these prints were left by Jennings. You know,

760
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: part of the controversy with fingerprint evidence is people from

761
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: the very beginning were testifying that it was absolutely individualization.

762
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: These prints are unique to the person. That's where the

763
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: NAS report kind of comes in saying, well, hold on,

764
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: how can you draw that conclusion scientifically without the supporting

765
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: studies to.

766
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 3: Be able to make that statement.

767
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: And what happened with fingerprints is in essence, from the

768
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: very beginning, they recognize there's extreme variability with fingerprints, and

769
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: there's no question about that. But to take that observation

770
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 2: of extreme variability and then say that only you possess

771
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: your fingerprints and nobody else in the world possesses those

772
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: same prints. That's a big leap. Anecdotally, we know there's

773
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 2: extreme variability. If a print is found that is of

774
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: sufficient quality and it is matched by a competent examiner

775
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 2: that this is good evidence. But the NEAs report is showing, Okay,

776
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: we're looking at what they did with DNA in terms

777
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: of developing objective standards and statistics for an expert to say, Okay,

778
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: I've got a DNA profile from a person. I've got

779
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: a DNA profile from evidence at the scene.

780
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: I see no differences in the profile.

781
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: And when I've done population studies or there's been population

782
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 2: studies done of random people, this is the statistic one

783
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: in forty million. So it provides the jur or the

784
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,959
Speaker 2: judge the weight of the evidence. And this is where

785
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: fingerprints it was just assumed by the courts because of

786
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: early experts coming in, well, this is unique to a person,

787
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: it's one an identification, but they don't particularly back then,

788
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: didn't have the studies to draw that conclusion. And you

789
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: brought up Valbert. This is some of the frustration, particularly

790
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 2: the defense side, is that once the courts accepted this

791
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: evidence as being tried and true, now you're not seeing

792
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: the judges allowing any type of debate as to the

793
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 2: science itself, only to the actual testing process and what

794
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: was found. That's where like in California, we weren't using Dabbert,

795
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: least up until the time that I left. We were

796
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: at what we call Kelly Fry State, And Kelly Fry

797
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: is kind of the same thing. Is this scientific method?

798
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: Is it valid, is it reliable? Is it generally accepted

799
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: in the relevant scientific community. But it needed to be

800
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: a new and novel technique.

801
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: So I think one of the things that we want

802
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: to talk about is what ends up happening with this case.

803
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: Something interesting happens. And this goes to the ego of attorneys.

804
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: So his attorneys, Thomas Jenning's attorneys were so convinced that

805
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: they could poke holes in the fingerprint evidence that the

806
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: defense attorney offered the prosecution a challenge. He said he

807
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: wanted to prove before the court that he had touched

808
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: a specific piece of paper. So this defense attorney says,

809
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: I touched that piece of paper, pull my print. I

810
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: bet you can't do it. It's spectacularly backfired because the yeah,

811
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 1: I mean, the expert, I'm sure it was a perfect sample.

812
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: So the expert he pulls it and it's of course

813
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: matches perfectly and that's it. So you know, what is

814
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: the risk do you think of this? What is the

815
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: risk of trying to show off in court?

816
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 3: Well?

817
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 2: This, I mean this brings up OJ Simpson where the

818
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: prosecutors asked Oj to try on the leather glove that

819
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: was found at the crime scene. And then now you

820
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: got defense attorney Johnny Cochran. Oj can't pull it on,

821
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: and so Cochrane is now saying if it doesn't fit

822
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: a quit, you know, it backfired. And with this, you

823
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: know touching a piece of paper. Paper is an absorbent material,

824
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: so your fingerprint oils get deposited kind of it's like

825
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 2: a sponge that paper kind of absorbs those oils with

826
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,439
Speaker 2: your fingerprint pattern in it. And then using something like ninhydrone,

827
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: which reacts with certain amino acids in the proteins of

828
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: your fingerprint, we can easily develop that type of print.

829
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: Paper actually is a great source of a fingerprints, and

830
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 2: in fact it's a better source than often many of

831
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: the surfaces at a crime scene because the prints can

832
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: easily be smeared from either the person touching and then

833
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 2: moving their hand while it's still touched or somebody else

834
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: coming by and brushing up against that surface.

835
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that really backfired.

836
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: And now that is of course the jurors watching this

837
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: experiment go wrong for the defense, and that's going to

838
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: put so much more weight on the prosecution's evidence. I

839
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: would say, just taking a look at what the prosecution

840
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 2: had in terms of these four fingerprints and with four

841
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: different experts doing the comparison, I don't doubt that those

842
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: were Jennings print and the paint on the window ledge.

843
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: But that's all they should have said. That's all they

844
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: could conclude. Now you have to establish he is the

845
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: one that's sexually assaulting the victim, he's the one that

846
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: shot the father. You have to establish all the other

847
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 2: elements of this crime utilizing other evidence. The fingerprints aren't

848
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: putting him inside the house. They're not putting him as

849
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 2: being the one who pulled the trigger to kill the father.

850
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: So that all is part of presenting a case. And

851
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: in this day and age generally that is how it

852
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 2: should be done. Is you have to walk the jury

853
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: true with the other types of evidence to show this

854
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: person is responsible for the murder.

855
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: This person's responsible for the sexual assault.

856
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not going to be any surprise to

857
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: you that he was convicted pretty quickly with all of

858
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: that evidence. They just said who else would have done it?

859
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: And they didn't have any other suspects. So he is

860
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: convicted and they appeal and it took a year because

861
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: this is a capital case, and it went to the

862
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: Illinois Supreme Court and essentially they looked at the case.

863
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 1: The defense's argument was, this is such a new science.

864
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: You're going to let this science, along with a bunch

865
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: of other circumstantial crap, send this guy to be hanged.

866
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: And the Illinois Supreme Court said, yes, we are. This

867
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: is sound science, even though this is the first year

868
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: it's been used. And this was when Oscar Heinrich, my

869
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: forensic scientist, started, was nineteen ten. So this is the

870
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: beginning of forensics in the United States. It had been

871
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: around in Europe for you know, fifty sixty years in

872
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: its modern form, but this was sort of the beginning.

873
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: So the Illinois Supreme Court said, yeah, this is sound science,

874
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: and Thomas Jennings is executed the next year.

875
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: Wow, that's fast.

876
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: Now, I will say, when I'm assessing the evidence in

877
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 2: the case and what they could have done back then,

878
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: you know, such as the blood on his coat. They

879
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 2: could not have conclusively shown that the blood came from

880
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 2: either of the victims. They weren't doing ABO testing back then.

881
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 2: You know, definitely no DNA.

882
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: What was probably from him, right from the graysed bullet. Also,

883
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: it could have been him. It could have been a.

884
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: Mix, absolutely, you know, it could have been him. That's

885
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: where it's again, did the father have bleeding injuries? Did

886
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: did the daughter have bleeding injuries? McNabb who he assaulted

887
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: possibly you know earlier, did she have bleeding injuries? The

888
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 2: number one piece of evidence that we haven't talked about

889
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: is what about the bullets, the bullets from the father?

890
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: Because the gun.

891
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: You know this is semantics, but this is the way

892
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: I think the gun is a tool. The murder weapon

893
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: is the bullet. It's the bullet that kills the victim.

894
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: So did they compare the bullets to Jennings revolver?

895
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: So, you know, one of the things that you and

896
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: I talk about with these old cases, I know when

897
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: you talk about new cases that you can say, well,

898
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, can't you just go check with the medical

899
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 1: examiner or you can hop on the internet, like says,

900
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: next to some fine stuff. Sometimes I don't have the

901
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: right information. However, as an investigative journalist, I can read

902
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: between the lines, and here's what I'm reading. There is

903
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: nothing to talk about the matching, specifically the bullets matching

904
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: the gun. They were able to do that in nineteen

905
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: ten because they omitted it and his attorneys leaned so

906
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: heavily on the fingerprint. I'm assuming they didn't find the

907
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: bullets or I don't know. If it was a through

908
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: and through and went out the door, I don't know

909
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: what would have happened.

910
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: There are times, you know, with gunshots, bullets sometimes fly

911
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: into what we call never never land if there isn't

912
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: a backstop, that say, they overpenetrate the victim and pass

913
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: through the victim. If they still have enough energy and

914
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: there's no backstop, they can travel a distance and they're

915
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: very very hard to find downrange, especially if you're out

916
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: in the woods, you know, and it's like, well, that's

917
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: almost impossible to search for a bullet that could be

918
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: fifty yards anywhere down that way, and then you bring

919
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: out the metal detector club to look for something like that.

920
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 2: But this is inside a house. There's plenty of backstops

921
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: inside the house, so if these bullets passed through the husband,

922
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: every attempt should have been made to recover those bullets.

923
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: And in my opinion, if those bullets were successfully matched

924
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 2: back to Jennings's revolver, then I'm good with a verdict

925
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: of guilty. I'm not necessarily opposed to the jury based

926
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: on the totality of the circumstances finding him guilty, but

927
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: to have it be a death case when you have

928
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 2: an execution that occurs so fast, oh yeah, it's like, okay,

929
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: hold on from at least the way that you've presented

930
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: what was really being put on trial. I'm not hearing

931
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: that they establish the elements of murder sufficiently. I think

932
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 2: they he established yes, he touched the window ledge, and

933
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 2: then he's got other circumstances.

934
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 3: He's in the neighborhood, he has blood on his coat,

935
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 3: he's got a bullet, Gray's wound.

936
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a revolver that, if it's not planted

937
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: evidence that least has the same type of AMMO in

938
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 2: it that was found at the crime scene.

939
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 3: So it's like it's a lot. I think they got

940
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 3: the right guy.

941
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 2: It's just do you have enough where you're going to

942
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: execute this guy within a year after conviction.

943
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: Well, as you know, I'm really sneaky. Here we go,

944
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: and I always hold I always hold something back. I

945
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: hold stuff back from you because I want you to

946
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: focus in on the physical evidence, because this is kind

947
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: of a doozy. So, before these sexual assaults happened, Thomas

948
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: Jennings did spend time in prison. He had sexually assaulted

949
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: several women and he entered their rooms with a match. Okay,

950
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: so you know why I did that. I wanted you

951
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: to look at the evidence and defend each piece of

952
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: it because there are plenty of people who are not

953
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: Thomas Jennings. It does sound like this guy did it,

954
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: but there are plenty of people who didn't do it

955
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: who get convicted on evidence that you can kind of

956
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: pull apart and justify and go, well, I don't know,

957
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: you know, so I wanted this challenge.

958
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: Well, this is where when you start getting into evaluating

959
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: an offender's m and the signature behaviors for the type

960
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: of crime. You know, he sounds like he's a serial rapist. Yeah,

961
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: he's a serial predator. He has two prior cases and

962
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 2: you know, of course I'd want to know so much

963
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: more details about all of these sexual assaults, so I

964
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: could take a look at the types of behaviors to

965
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 2: see is there anything that really stands out as being

966
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: unique or fantasy motivated in order to go Yeah, you know,

967
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 2: this is not only the same memo, but there are

968
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 2: signature behaviors within here that even without you know, taking

969
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: a look at physical evidence, I'm fairly confident these cases

970
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: are all being perpetrated by the same offender. Yeah, but

971
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: just adding that prior criminal history and how specific it

972
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: is to these two sexual assaults, that really does show

973
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: and kind of stacks the totality of the circumstances considering

974
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 2: Jennings and his responsibility for the homicide of the father. Yeah,

975
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 2: I'm convinced. Yeah, I'm they got the right guy. I

976
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: think I agree with you based on what you told me,

977
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: is that the way they presented the evidence was faulty,

978
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: and the fingerprint to comparison, they did a good comparison.

979
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 2: They just made the wrong statements in front of the

980
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: jury about what that comparison meant.

981
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you it got people in Illinois into

982
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: a load of trouble. There were a lot of editorials

983
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: and a lot of outrage despite all of this, despite

984
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: his prior conviction, despite all of this pointing directly to him.

985
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: There were numerous editorials. I think the most interesting one

986
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: was the Washington Post called it an outrageous conviction and said, quote,

987
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: no man's life will be safe if the courts instruct

988
00:52:54,680 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: juries to regard as conclusive the testimony of partisan experts correct.

989
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: It's just difficult because you and I believe that this

990
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 1: was I don't know about the death penalty. I'll say

991
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say the death penlty, but I

992
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: think the conviction certainly was just I mean, just based

993
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: on everything.

994
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 3: I'm fine with the conviction.

995
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 2: I'm just more concerned about the penalty aspect in this

996
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: case me too, and how the state put on its

997
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 2: evidence and how the experts testified.

998
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 3: They way over concluded.

999
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: Basically saying he's responsible for these murders just based on

1000
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: finger print evidence would be no, you can't say that,

1001
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 2: and they probably overstated. They individualized the fingerprint evidence, which

1002
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: has been happening forever. Only Jennings possesses these prints right now. Scientifically,

1003
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 2: that is what is still being assessed. The weight of

1004
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 2: this evidence is very very strong. But what is that weight?

1005
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: How do you put it in front of a juror

1006
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 2: so they understand, oh, this is really strong. But is

1007
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 2: there a chance that somebody else could possess these prints?

1008
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hedging your bets in a lot of ways.

1009
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: And I think that that is one of the things

1010
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: it's the most interesting about this case. There's not tons

1011
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: of twists and turns like I like to give you,

1012
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: but this was a landmark case and I thought it

1013
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: was really fascinating the way that everything unfolded. One thing

1014
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: that I will say that the law is just so

1015
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: messy in some of these cases. The fingerprints, the way

1016
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: that they handled it, that was all I think inappropriate

1017
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,959
Speaker 1: in many cases. But then you look at a case

1018
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: like why they caught Ted Bundy was using bitemark evidence,

1019
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: which we now know is squishy at best as far

1020
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: as junk science, and so sometimes I think, well, I mean,

1021
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: they got Ted Bundy with questionable science. But this is

1022
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,959
Speaker 1: That's what the Washington Post point is is that, yes,

1023
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: everything has to be fair across the board, and that's hard.

1024
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 3: It's hard.

1025
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a Texas prosecutor, former Texas prosecutor who

1026
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 1: used to talk about the different cases she would get

1027
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: and she would take out a pen and say, I've

1028
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: got this case and it's just got DNA. It's just

1029
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: this one pencil. She used a pencil, it's just this

1030
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: one pencil. And she said, I've got another case that's circumstantial,

1031
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: and it's nine pencils each little piece of evidence. And

1032
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: she said, you know, if I turn these over, I

1033
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: can't break that. I would rather have a case with

1034
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: nine pencils than one relying on one piece of evidence

1035
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: that can be picked apart and argued because something happened

1036
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: with the lab or was this contaminated, or you know,

1037
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: is there a possibility of this being something else. But

1038
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: when you just put all of these circumstances, unfortunately with

1039
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: Thomas Jennings, when all of these circumstances are laid out,

1040
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: seems pretty clear what happened. So this has been exhausting.

1041
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I did not think this was going to

1042
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: be a big case. And again, I know I always

1043
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: like to shock you a little bit. Maybe there is

1044
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: a little bit of shock there, but I think these

1045
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: types of cases I just find so interesting because I

1046
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: know you know this by now. I know that old, old,

1047
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: old cases. I know you do old but these old cases,

1048
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 1: you weren't sure if you were going to be able

1049
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 1: to relate to the people or to the investigators, or

1050
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: what's the science going to be like. But this is

1051
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: a case that could have gone in twenty twenty.

1052
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 3: Sure, no, it absolutely could.

1053
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 2: But in this day and age, with modern technology, this

1054
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: would be a very very easy case because we could

1055
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: do DNA on that blood, all this evidence. We would

1056
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 2: have been able to utilize and either eliminate or include

1057
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 2: Jennings as being the contributor of these layers of evidence

1058
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 2: that was present. They just couldn't do as much with

1059
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 2: it as we can today.

1060
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,479
Speaker 1: Well, I hope for you at cool but not too

1061
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: cold day today in Colorado, I'm jealous and I want

1062
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: you to be mentally prepared for the next case because

1063
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: it's going to be a doozy and you're going to

1064
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: need to put your forensic science and your detective hat on,

1065
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: because you know how I like to bring the twisty turns.

1066
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 1: We go back and forth. We're doing some really interesting,

1067
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: deep cases and then some that are just crazy stories

1068
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: that all to me have significance. So it's really exciting

1069
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: to bring them to you.

1070
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking forward to it.

1071
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 2: I'll roll up my sleeves and I'll start listening as

1072
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: soon as you start telling me about it.

1073
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 1: Yep, start drinking your cava now, it's my suggestion. Okay,

1074
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. This has been an exactly right

1075
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: production for.

1076
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

1077
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones Sources.

1078
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1079
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1080
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1081
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

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Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

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Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

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Speaker 1: Cases is also available now