1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Wow, Sophie. I did not expect for you to take 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: personal responsibility for the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Um. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: I had always blamed it on Lee Harvey Oswald. Now 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: now actually you have blamed it on a lot of 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: people I know. And it's possible someone might say that 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: I'm just blaming yet another person for the assassination of JFK. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: But really, what I'm trying to let people know is 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: that Sophie can land three shots within a roughly dinner 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: plate shy sized target at a surprising distance. Move it 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: also moving target, moving target too. You got to lead 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: that very impressive. I believe in you, Sophie. I believe 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: in your ability to take out John Fitzgerald Kennedy if 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: you'd had to, And that's why we've built you this 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: time machine. If he was coming at you with his 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: limousine and you were you were sheltering in a book depository, 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: I think you could have done it. Thank come back 17 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: to behind the bastards too powerful. I didn't know how 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: to introduce this one, so I decided to blame Sophie 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: for a historical crime. I am Robert Evans. This is 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: a podcast ostensibly about the worst people in all of history. 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: We are getting behind some bastards because all right wing 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: politics today is rooted in the series of conspiracy theories 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: that we are explaining right now for you in three 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: hundred iss years of history condensed into I don't know, 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: like five podcast episodes. Anyway, My guests to continue this 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: glorious journey in part four are Margaret Killjoy Hello, and 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: Garrison Davis. Good morning or afternoon or is some other 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: time m yep, it's whatever time of day you're listening to. 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: So folks, here we are. Let's get back into the 30 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: story for the next year or so. After the Kennedy 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: assassination conspiracy, he's around. Carrie kind of flared and then 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: eventually seemed to subside. His friend Greg moved back to 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: New Orleans. Greg kind of was back and forth between 34 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: Whittier and New Orleans. You know, it is being young. 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: You can't, you know, make rent for a while, you 36 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: move back in with your parents, then you come back. 37 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: It's life and h Once he comes back to the city, 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: the two start work on their long shelved plans to 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: create a satiric religion based on the Greek goddess of 40 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: chaos eires. Now, Gary wrote most of the first draft 41 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: of a tract that would later become This is a 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: little bit before zenes were a thing, but it also 43 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: is kind of a proto zine. And its title is 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: prince Skipia Discordia or How I Found the Goddess and 45 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: what I did to her when I found her, And 46 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: this is it's a good title. It's a good title. 47 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: These guys are very funny, and this is it is 48 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: kind of framed as it's a mix of like a 49 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: religious tract and you know it actually what it's kind 50 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: of framed as when I remember when I told you 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: about how that illuminated member of the Illuminati got struck 52 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: by lightning and found by the cops. A lot of 53 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: the Principia Discordia kind of has the feeling of like 54 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: intercepted communications from like yeah, this like weird, underground cold, 55 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: and that's intentional. They know the history that I related 56 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: to you all in the first In fact, are quite 57 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: knowledgeable about the history that I related to you all 58 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: in the opening episodes of this series. Aspects of it 59 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: are kind of framed as a religious tract, and the 60 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: faith that this is attract for is called Discordianism. Now 61 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: by this point, Kerry had already started reading guys like 62 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: Max Sterner, and he had found himself pulled out of 63 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: his objectivist trend, of his iron Rand support, and towards 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: a more a sort of individualist anarchism. Sterner is a 65 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: guy who wrote a book called The Ego and Its 66 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: Own And I am not the person to summarize that 67 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: Egoism is kind of is one of the things that 68 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: like that of anarchism is called. I am not the 69 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: person to summarize it to you. But the main impact 70 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: that has on carry is that he finds himself pulled 71 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: towards anarchism as opposed to this kind of And he'd 72 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: always been an anti state guy, right. That is a 73 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: thing that is pretty consistent, you know, And that's a 74 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: thing that he believes when he considers himself a capitalist revolutionary. 75 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: The main thing that Stirner does for him is he 76 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: drops the capitalism right and is just kind of now 77 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: anti state. And he and Greg are also getting increasingly 78 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: interested in the occult. In this period of time, Carrie 79 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: does a pass on the Principia Discordia and then they 80 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: start mailing it off to an ever expanding group of 81 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: their friends, who are mostly artists and weirdo pranksters who 82 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: all like the idea of a religion centered around chaos. 83 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 1: By the mid nineteen sixties, American conspiracy culture had taken 84 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: off to new heights thanks to the Kennedy assassination and 85 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: all that shit that was going on with UFOs. Conspiracism 86 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: is also taking off increasingly among the right wing. Too. 87 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: Conservative political establishment is starting to have its first big, 88 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: big break away from what you might call consensus reality, 89 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: which is existing and accepting a plane of basic reality 90 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: that is similar or if not basically identical to the 91 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: ones that the liberals accept, and towards a more darker 92 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: splinter reality defined by conspiracism. And the author of this switch, 93 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: probably the single figure most responsible for the splintering of 94 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: the reality tunnels in mainstream American politics is a guy 95 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: named Robert H. Welch Junior, who we have talked about 96 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: on this show. He is the founder of the John 97 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: Birch Society. Now again, if you want to listen to 98 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: those episodes on Bob Welch that we do with the 99 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 1: Knowledge Fight guys, I do recommend them. But in case 100 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: you haven't heard those, Are you just rusty on the 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: subject of the John Birch Society. I'm going to quote 102 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: from our friend Hofstadder again, who wrote the Paranoid Style 103 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: in American Politics in November of nineteen sixty four. So 104 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: that article that I quoted to you earlier talked about 105 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: the Illuminati and its influence on kind of conspiracism in 106 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: America earlier like two episodes ago. That article was written 107 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: during the period we're talking about right now, November fo Yeah, 108 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: a few years ago Welsh proclaimed that communist influences are 109 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: now in almost complete control of our government. Note the 110 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: care and scrupulousness of that almost. He has offered a 111 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: full scale interpretation of our recent history in which communists 112 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: figure at every turn. They started a run on American 113 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: banks in nineteen thirty three that forced their closure. They 114 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: contrived the recognition of the Soviet Union by the United 115 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: States in the same year, just in time to save 116 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: the Soviets from economic collapse. They've stirred up fuss over 117 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: segregation in the South. They have taken over the Supreme 118 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: Court and made it one of the most important agencies 119 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: of communism. Right, That's how Hopstater described This is where 120 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: and that is if you replace communism with the illuminati, 121 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: it's the same kind of shit that people were saying 122 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: after the French Revolution, right, It's the same playbook, and 123 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: it very much is a playbook for a guy, for 124 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: a lot of these people. In the early nineteen sixties, 125 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: Welch came across a pair of books that had a 126 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: massive influence on him. In these books were Nesta Webster's 127 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: Secret Societies and Subversive Movements from nineteen twenty four and 128 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: American evangelist Gerald win Rod's book Adam Weisshopped a Human 129 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: Devil from nineteen thirty five. That is a that is 130 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: a banger title. If anybody writes a book about me, 131 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: Robert Evans a human Devil, I will be the proudest 132 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm capable of being. I had a satanic scare at 133 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: the last place I lived, like a local newsperson about 134 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: one of my music videos, and so we just printed 135 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: up the next band shirt was just all of the like, 136 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: axe wielding terrorist women, anti phi anarchists, sacrificing babies in 137 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: the woods or whatever. That's how you can do it. 138 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: So both of these books, and this is going to 139 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: really shock you, guys, were profoundly anti Semitic. And this 140 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: is kind of the start of this of a European 141 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: school of thought that saw Jews and the Illuminati and 142 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: in some cases the Freemasons as like co authors of 143 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: the French and Bolshevik Bolshevik revolutions together that like, this 144 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: is all tied together, and this is a big part 145 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: Hitler is spousing aspects of this he's taught. En if 146 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: you like, look at what Hitler actually said about the 147 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: conspiracies he believed. He would often call it Judeo Bolshevism, Right, 148 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: Hitler's not so much into the illuminatis stuff. But the 149 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: stuff Hitler believes is very much descended from a lot 150 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: of this stuff. So Welch jettison to the anti Semitism 151 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: he found in these books, some of it at least, 152 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: but he kept the rest, particularly the obsession with a 153 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: grand Illuminati conspiracy theory. And I'm going to quote now 154 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: from the book The World of the John Birch Society. 155 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: Welch's first public mention of the Illuminati, but not yet 156 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: the Insiders, came in his more stately mansion speech, delivered 157 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: before a crowd of seventeen hundred at the Conrad Hilton 158 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: in Chicago on June fifth, nineteen sixty four. He told 159 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: his biographer that although he had been studying this subject 160 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: for a number of years prior to this, he understood 161 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: that you couldn't start putting it all out in one 162 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: go because nobody would believe you. Instead, he'd endeavored to 163 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: lead the Birch Society's members little by little to where 164 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: they would be interested. Despite these concerns, Welch's idea of 165 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: the insiders was quickly incorporated into the society's official worldview, 166 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: with Birch writers like Medford Evans amusing about whether Dean 167 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Rusk was the insider's quarterback, for example. But just as often, 168 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: the conspirators continue to be identified as the communists, the liberals, 169 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: the establishment, the liberal establishment, or simply the conspiracy. The 170 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: seeming interchangeability of the terms reflected the fact that appearances 171 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: to the contrary, notwithstanding Welch's turn to the illuminati, hadn't 172 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: really changed his basic analysis. So that's interesting. Number one. 173 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: Welch is kind of doing a little bit of an 174 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: atom by shop with his society right where he's like, well, 175 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: you can't tell everyone the whole truth at once. You 176 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: have to kind of like lead them there. But he's 177 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: also he comes to believe that, he comes to believe 178 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: in these Illuminati conspiracies, that they're behind the French Revolution, 179 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: of the Bolshevik Revolution and all of these social justice movements. 180 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: But he also consciously loops them in with both this 181 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: blaming it on insiders, right, the illuminati or the insiders, 182 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: and you might call them the deep state, you know, 183 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: but he also he identifies them in the same breath 184 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: as not just the communists but also the liberal establishment. Right, 185 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: all of this is the conspiracy. All of this linked 186 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: together is the conspiracy the right is going to believe 187 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: in from nineteen sixty four up to today in November 188 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: nineteen huh Oh. It's just it's so based on anti 189 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: semitism in terms of the way that like people think 190 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: of anti semitism is like racism, but confusing because applied 191 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: to this group of people that's often white. But it's like, 192 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: it's not, it's just this entirely different system of oppression 193 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: that's based on this. I don't know, but yeah, this 194 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: this belief in this fucking secret rules based on this, 195 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: It's based on this belief that there is a fragment 196 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: of society within your society that is different and fundamentally 197 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: is trying to push all of these modernizing elements for 198 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: sinister reasons right of their own power. Right. That is 199 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: the core of anti Semitic belief. And it is focused 200 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: obviously on the Jews being that fragment. But once you 201 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: start to believe that, it's not hard for you to 202 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: move on to just like, well, beyond that, it's the Illuminati, right, 203 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: it's the communist it's the liberals, establishment, all of these 204 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: different like you've accepted that there's this that any sort 205 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: of movement towards a progressing society is based in a 206 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: conspiracy to destroy it, right, And that's the most important 207 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: step to take. And it also it goes the other 208 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: direction too. Now that you get people to believe in 209 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: lizard people or whatever other Illuminati thing, you can then 210 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: get them to also just become anti Semitic. Yes, it 211 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: works backwards and forwards. Again, it's very syncretic too, So 212 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: you can people who are just convinced that there's lizard 213 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: people or Bigfoot or UFOs if you loop that into like, well, 214 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: the Illuminati doesn't want you to know about Bigfoot or 215 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: the UFOs, right, And they're keeping that, then that is 216 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: also an inroad to get those people believing that the 217 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: Jews are behind everything bad in society. This is a 218 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: pretty durable, improven thing that happens within conspiracism. Yeah. In 219 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: November of nineteen sixty six, roughly a year after the 220 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: publication of The Prince Skipia Discordia, Bob Welch published an 221 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: essay in a John Birch magazine titled The Truth in Time, 222 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: in which he revealed his discovery of a master conspiracy 223 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: older than communism. The communist movement is only a tool 224 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: of the total conspiracy. As secret as the communist activities 225 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: and organizations generally appear, they are part of an open 226 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: book compared to the secrecy enveloping some higher degree of 227 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: this diabolic force. The extrinsic evidence is strong and convincing 228 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: that by the beginning of the twentieth century there had 229 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: evolved an inner core of conspiratorial power able to direct 230 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: and control subversive activities which were worldwide in their reach, 231 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: incredibly cunning and ruthless in their nature, and brilliantly far 232 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: sighted and patient and their strategy. Whether or not this 233 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: increasingly all powerful hidden command was due to an unbroken 234 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: continuation of vaishops alun Illuminati, or was a distillation from 235 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: the leadership of this in other groups We do not know. 236 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: Some of them may never have been Communists, while others 237 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: were to avoid as much dispute as possible. Therefore, let 238 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: us call this ruling click simply the insiders. It's it's 239 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: just people fallen for the bait, thinking that they're smart. 240 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: It's yeah, and Bob Welsh is both high on his 241 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: own supply but also recognizes this is a good way 242 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: to manipulate people, and it's interesting. Nineteen sixty four is 243 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: Welsh's first meet mention of the Illuminati, whereas like, I've 244 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: got to prep the ground for people. Nineteen sixty six 245 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: is where he comes out with his big speech talking 246 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: about the Illuminati. Nineteen sixty five is when the Principia 247 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: Discordia gets published. It is all of this. We should 248 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: say that the Principia Discordia has a decent section in 249 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: it about the Yes, I'm about to get to that. Yeah, 250 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: we will be reading from it right now. Yeah. Yeah. 251 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: The Principient Discordia was written for people like Greg and Carey. 252 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: Because it was written by people like Greg and carry right, intelligent, 253 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: well read weirdos on the fringes of society who are 254 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: natural skeptics, but who are also drawn irresistibly towards conspiracism. 255 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: It's fitting that chapter one, authored by Carry and attributed 256 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: to his pseudonym Lord Omar khay M Ravenhurst, was called 257 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: the Epistle to the Paranoids. It is essentially a message 258 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: to the counterculture of the nineteen sixties. And at this point, 259 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: as he's had his sort of break into anarchism, he's 260 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: finding himself increasingly angry that the objectivists where he'd formerly 261 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: kind of like found identification, and the Marxists who he'd 262 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: once identified with, and the anarchists who he now identified 263 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: with all hated each other. And we're all fighting each 264 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: other rather than fighting the state, right, and he the paranoids, 265 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: that's who he's talking about, is these people on account 266 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: your culture who are all in opposition to the state, 267 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: but who can't get along with each other. And this 268 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: message in the Prince Scipia Discordia is essentially a message 269 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: to this fragmented chunk of the counterculture that he was like, 270 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: you guys are fighting too much to oppose the state. 271 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: In a meaningful way. And I'm going to read a 272 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: quote from that now, And this is again the Epistle 273 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: to the Paranoids. Number one, Ye have locked yourselves up 274 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: in cages of fear, And behold, do you now complain 275 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: that ye lack freedom? Ye have cast out your brothers 276 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: for devils, And now complain ye lamenting that ye've been 277 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: left to fight alone all chaos? Was once your kingdom 278 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: verily held ye dominion over the entire Pentaverse. But today 279 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: ye was sore, afraid, and dark corners, nooks and sinkholes. Oh, 280 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: how the darknesses do crowd up one against the other 281 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: in ye hearts? What fear ye more than that? What 282 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: ye hath rotten? Verily? Verily? I say into you, unto you, 283 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: not all the sinister ministers of the Bavarian Illuminati, working 284 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: together in multitudes, could so entwine the lad and with 285 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: tribulation as have your baseless warnings. Are you just trying? Yeah, 286 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: that's not a thing that anyone involved in radical politics 287 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: today would identify it with on a deep and emotional level. Right, Yeah, Yeah, 288 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: it's well written too, he is He's I find a 289 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: lot in this piece. Um. Now, the next section of 290 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: the Prince Skipia was an ad um and it's framed 291 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: as an advertisement as like a hokey sixties style advertisement 292 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: to join the Bavarian Illuminati, which is listed as the 293 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: world's oldest and most successful conspiracy. Greg and Carry give 294 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: their version of Illuminati history here, which puts the creation 295 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: of the organization at around ten ninety by Hassan is Saba, 296 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,239 Speaker 1: a medieval warlord credited with creating an order of hashbet 297 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: fueled assassins. People get the history, the exact history on 298 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: that a little bit, quite a lot wrong. Obviously, Hassan 299 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: as Sava had nothing to do with the Illuminati, and 300 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: they knew this. This was a joke for them right. 301 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: The advertisement is very tongue in cheek. It also references 302 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft's creation Yog south Off, as well as so 303 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, among other things. The 304 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: Princekipia is a satire of real cults, but also a 305 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: satire of American mass media, and in fact, that ad 306 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: to join the Bavarian Illuminati ends with these lines. If 307 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: your right Q is over one fifty and you have 308 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: three thousand, one hundred and twenty five dollars plus handling, 309 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: you might be eligible for a trial membership if you 310 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: think you will quit if you qual If you think 311 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: you qualify, put the money in a cigar box and 312 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: bury it in your backyard. One of our underground agents 313 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: will contact you shortly. I dare you tell no one. 314 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: Accidents have a strange way of happening to people who 315 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: talk too much about the Bavarian Illuminati. Maybe may we 316 00:17:53,800 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: warn you against imitations? Ours is original and genuite you 317 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: do a podcast about this? Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, there's 318 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: there's some mensa mixed up in there. Right. There's also 319 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: like Coca Cola ads kind of like this is the 320 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: original flay you know, yes, yes, they're making fun of 321 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: all this stuff. Speaking of advertisements that will instruct you 322 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: to bury your money and throw it away. Here our 323 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: ads that God, I hope it's a gold ad. I 324 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: hope I wish for each of you a gold ad. 325 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: At this point we're back. Um, so one thing that 326 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: becomes clear going through the prince Skipia and and doing 327 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: and by the way, you can pronounce the Principia discordia 328 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: however you want, because nobody actually knows how ancient Latin 329 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: was pronounced in its entirety we have ecclesiastic Latin, which 330 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: is a bit different. So if you want to be 331 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: like I don't you're gonna pronounce it that way, you 332 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: can go fuck yourself. I took three years of Latin, 333 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: I'll say it. However the fuck I goddamn want um 334 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: go to hell. I'd love you don't study Latin and 335 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: high school kids. That's what I did time I did. 336 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: Look at us. We are such a bunch of suckers. 337 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: I know, I know absolutely. My friends are all like 338 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: learning Spanish that they didn't travel with, and I'm stuck 339 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: there learning about how fucking caycillous and is. Yeah, buddy, 340 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: I had a you know, it helped me up a 341 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: conversation with my nun aunt about whether or not you 342 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: pronounced Latin certain ways. That's what I got out of 343 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: three years A lot I took. You want to We 344 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: just did some episodes on on Bobby Fisher, and some 345 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: people thought I was intending to just kind of joke 346 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: about the fact that he was a nerd because I 347 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: was also a nerd, which is why I brought up 348 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: Warhammer so much. But I took three years of Latin 349 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: so that I could understand all of my Warhammer books 350 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: like that was that was why I did that. Hell yeah, 351 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: so there there you go. Anyway, whatever, one thing that 352 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: comes clear going through the Principia and doing all this 353 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: research on the Illuminati is how knowledgeable Greg and Carrie 354 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: and their other friends were about the actual history not 355 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: just of the Illuminati, but of other secret societies and conspiracies. 356 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: These guys have like an academic levels understanding of this history, 357 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: which is why they are able to parody it so successfully. 358 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: The Principia contains a number of letters in which members 359 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: of the Illuminati, all of which are like and they 360 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: take as did we didn't really get into this in 361 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: those but all of the original Illuminati people like took 362 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: on uh pseudonyms that were like themed after ancient Greek 363 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: and Roman history like Achilles and Ajax and stuff, and 364 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: all of the new Illuminati, the Discordians take on pseudonyms 365 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: as well. As I said, Um Carries is Lord Omar 366 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: Khayam Ravenhurst, Greg Hills is Malaclipse the younger m and 367 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: yeah they give you know, uh yeah, so these guys 368 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: are are are very much anciously like aping Adam yeshopped 369 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: and in their conspiracy document that they put out. They 370 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: each provide kind of different and often contrasting theories about 371 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: the actual age and origin of the Illuminati. Usually this 372 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: winds up stretching back to prehistory and they're kind of continuing, 373 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: why shops lie here? Right, like consciously continuing because like 374 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: he would pretend it was an ancient society. They're doing 375 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: this intentionally, and it also includes bits like this which 376 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: are clearly satirizing the John Birch Society. Your publication is 377 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: timely so mentioned that an addition, and this is part 378 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: of a section of it that's framed as intercepted letters. Basically, right, 379 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: your publication is timely so mentioned that in addition to 380 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: the old fronts like the Masons, the Rothschild Banks, and 381 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve System, we now have significant control of 382 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: the Federal Bureau of Investigation since Hoover died last year, 383 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: but that is still secret. The Students from a Democratic Society, 384 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: the Communist Party USA, the American Anarchist Association, the Junior 385 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce, the Black Lotus Society, Eddie, the Republicans Party, 386 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: the John Dillinger Died for You Society, and the Campfire Girls. 387 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: It is still useful to continue the sham of the 388 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: Birchers that we are seeking world domination, so do not 389 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: reveal that political and economic control was generally complete several 390 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: generations ago. It's so funny, it's so good. Yeah, this 391 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: is a response to the John Birch society as much 392 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: as it is anything else. And they're fucking with people, right, Like, 393 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: that's what's going on here. Okay, but the right is 394 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: there a Campfire Girls or do they make that up? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 395 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: that was like a Girl Scouts kind of that that 396 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: I may still exist for all I know. I'm not 397 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: a Campfire Girls exit expert, although soon we'll have our 398 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: six part series on the camp Fire Girls. You already 399 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: did the Boy Scouts, so we could have done a 400 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 1: couple more episodes on the fucking boy Scouts. Yeah. Um. 401 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: So they write this silly zine, and I know some 402 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: of you who are not like is into this stuff 403 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: as all three of us are, are probably like, why 404 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: are we talking about like this weird joke that's dudes 405 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: made in the mid sixties. Oh boy, trust me, it matters. 406 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: So they write this week, they write this weird zine 407 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: and if you know anything about kind of like pre 408 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: internet erazines, you know that the thing they're going to 409 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: need next is a photocopier. Now, in the mid nineteen sixties, 410 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: photo copiers existed. You could get access to them, but they, 411 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: like owning one would have cost you know, probably like 412 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: what a car does today. It was not easy to get, 413 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: like to purchase one. Most people didn't have access to 414 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: one unless they had access through an institution. And so 415 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: if you were going to use such a machine, you 416 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: either were like at a school that had one, or 417 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: you had maybe an employer that had one and you 418 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: could kind of like get some time on it. So 419 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: it just so happened that Greg Hill when they decided 420 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: they want to start making a bunch of copies of 421 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: this thing they had out. Greg Hill had a friend 422 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: named Lane Kaplinger, and Lane worked as a secretary for 423 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison. If you've ever watched 424 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: the movie JFK by Oliver Stone, Garrison is the guy 425 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: played by Kevin Costner. So he would go on to 426 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: write the first major Kennedy assassination conspiracy book titled On 427 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: the Trail of Assassins, which is what Stones JFK was 428 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: based on. This will be relevant soon, so Greg Hill 429 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: and his friend sneak into Jim Garrison's office and they 430 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: use the photocopier to produce several copies of the Prince 431 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: Sipia Discordia, which they start handing out to friends who 432 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: read it and find it funny. These people, then, I 433 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: will say, as someone who's also interested in this history, 434 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: this claim is heavily disputed. Yes, we know there's at 435 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: least one zne they did use Garrison's photocopier on it's 436 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: not provable that it was the Prince Scipia Discordia. And 437 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: they also claimed that the first copy of the Principia 438 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: was typed out using Garrison's typewriter. Yes, there's there's a 439 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: lot of weird claims about Garrison's specific because others later 440 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: in the JFK stuff, Well he's going to wrote it, 441 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: Oh not just that, um but uh yeah, no, you're right, Garrison, 442 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: this may not have happened. We do know that they 443 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: used because they were writing other zcenes. It's pretty well 444 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: known that they used his photocopier for one thing a 445 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: couple of years prior to this. There have been claimed 446 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: since that they used it for this, And like you 447 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: said that they used as typewriter. We don't know what's 448 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: true because these guys, again, part of what they're about 449 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: to start doing is telling a bunch of funny lies, 450 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: so so good. That's a It is known that Hill 451 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: and a friend got access to his photocopier at one point, right, 452 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: I chose to tell people the version that I found 453 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: most funny, which I thought was in line with Discordian traditions. 454 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: But yes, that is good, that is useful context. So 455 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: they start handing the stuff out to friends, and in 456 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: the way that things spread back then, these people read it. 457 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: A lot of them like it. They find their own 458 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: access to like mimiograph machines or where they go to 459 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: the library. They start making copies of it and handing 460 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: it out to friends, and in a couple of different 461 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: cities people start to decide to start Discordian chapters, which 462 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: I themed us both kind of secret societies and sects 463 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: of a religion that's like what they are consciously aping, 464 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: but in reality it has a lot more in common 465 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: with like modern nerds subculture today. And to kind of 466 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: go through this process, I'm going to quote now from 467 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: the book kal Left by an author named J. Mr. 468 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Higgs slowly, Hill and Thornley recruited a few like minded 469 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: friends into their new religion. Their aim was to undermine 470 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: existing belief systems by spreading confusion and disinformation with as 471 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: much humor as possible. To this end, they each adopted 472 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: a host of new names under which their Discordian endeavors 473 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: were credited. Many new Discordian chapters were founded. The majority 474 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: of these contained only one member, and some contained none. 475 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: Discordians then wrote essays and letters under these aliases, only 476 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: to follow them with completely contradictory essays and letters under 477 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: a different alias. So this is like becomes sort of 478 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: the first act of worship of the Discordian Church is 479 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: to like write essays and letters about conspiracies and then 480 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: send them out to different magazines and different publications under 481 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: a variety of alien aliases. Now, as for the actual 482 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: religion itself, we all know you've actually meant aliens Mmm, 483 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: I did? Which you know my book on the Illuminati, 484 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: by that one Crank does talk a lot about the Anonochi. 485 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: They are. Apparently the Babylonians talked about them all the time, 486 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: So you know, no one's more credible than the Babylonians. 487 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: But the actual tenets of the Discordian Faith, which is 488 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: again a satire of religion. Are you know, there's a 489 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: variety of things. Everybody's a pope, which is not an 490 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: original thing initially. It is actually very centralized. It's kind 491 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: of one of the big changes in the Discordian Faith 492 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: over the years is the decision that everybody gets to 493 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: be a pope. They don't have religious dogmas. They have katmas, 494 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: which are like relative meta beliefs rather than like strict 495 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: beliefs in something right, there's kind of a general prescription 496 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: in the Discordian Church against believing too hard in anything. 497 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: Like every religion, they have foods that your band kind 498 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: of arbitrarily from eating. In this case, it's hot dog buns, 499 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of just like hot dogs 500 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: handed out at like Discordian events in this period of time. 501 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: And again this is meant to Yeah, it's meant to be. 502 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 1: She would love this. It's it's it's a joke. It's yucks. 503 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: But what you should have realized right now by the 504 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: passage I read earlier where they're kind of they're spreading 505 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: all these jokes, but they're also spreading all of these 506 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: different claims about the things they've done as a conspiracy. 507 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: What they've done, what Hill and Thornley particularly have done, 508 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: is create a series of memes which start to spread 509 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: through the underground media of the day, through this kind 510 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: of growing underground network of what's going to become zene culture. Now, 511 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,239 Speaker 1: because this faith gets founded in nineteen sixty five, right 512 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: as the Kennedy assassination, conspiracy theories pick up steam, conspiracy 513 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: theories becomes sort of the language that discordions choose to 514 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: do their messaging in. Now, this is what brings us 515 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: to Playboy magazine, the mid Delatement, a place Jamie Locke 516 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: has worked. She did, She's deeply tied all these Jamie 517 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: has involved in this so much. We are through the 518 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: looking glass here. People. When I say Playboy today, you 519 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: either think of all of Hugh Hefner's mini sex crimes 520 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: or you think about, um, oh yeah, that like website 521 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: or that magazine that used to be big and is 522 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: no longer profitable and turned into like kind of a 523 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: sleazy internet brand in the nineteen sixties. Playboy is hugely 524 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: influential in the counterculture, not just because there's there's pictures 525 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: of attractive naked people but because they're like of the articles, 526 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: like they're there are a lot of very influential writers 527 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: the articles. This is a thing, and two of the 528 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: guys who are writing it for the articles are a 529 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: pair of editors for Playboy magazine named Robert Shay and 530 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilsons. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of Roberts 531 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: involved in this story too. But yes, Bob Shay and 532 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilson are both editors for Playboy magazine, and 533 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: they're both kinda into a lot of the same stuff 534 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: that Carry and Greg are. They they find the occult. 535 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: They're both very much into the occult, especially Robert Anton Wilson. 536 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: They are taking huge amounts of LSD. And by the way, 537 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: so are Hill and Thornley by this point, um, And 538 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, they start to notice because Playboy publishes letters, 539 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: and one of the places, the easiest places for Discordians 540 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: who are writing these nonsense conspiracy letters to get their 541 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: shit published is Playboy. And Robert Anton Wilson Robert Shay 542 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: start to notice, like, we're getting a lot of weird 543 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: letters from guys writing about the Illuminati and Arris and 544 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: stuff that's peculiar. So they start responding to some of 545 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: these letters, Wilson, being a prankster himself, decides he's going 546 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: to fuck with whoever is sending him these joke letters 547 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: by publishing all of the weirdest ones and his particular thing, 548 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: as in the EG issue, he likes to publish conspiracy 549 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: theories letters letters that are conspiracy theories that specifically contradict 550 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: each other, like incompatible theories about the Kennedy assassination and 551 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: stuff like that, because he thinks that's funnier, and it is. 552 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote now from a summary by 553 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: a writer named James Burt. Wilson said he did not 554 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: consider this a prank or a hoax, but guerrilla ontology. 555 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: He became increasingly exasperated with the fixed views on both 556 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: the right and left of politics, and he wanted people 557 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: to question the information they received, to stop seeing their 558 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: beliefs as inherently true. Onology is a branch of branch 559 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: of philosophy that studies, among other things, the nature of reality, 560 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: like what is true? Right again, this is a philosophy 561 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: discussion on a podcast, So we're flattening things here, but 562 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: that's the basic of it, right. It is the science 563 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: of like what is how to classify and explain objects 564 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: and entities. Wilson and Shay, like the Discordians, saw themselves 565 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: as waging a necessary war against people's widely accepted definitions 566 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: of reality. And they are looking out at millions of 567 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: people being massacred in Vietnam, at police in the street 568 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: beating civil rights marchers, and they are responding to what 569 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: they see as all of the people perpetuating these crimes 570 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: have locked themselves into what Robert Anton Wilson will later 571 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: call a reality tunnel, which is this like very solidified 572 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: belief about the nature of the world that is wrong 573 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: but justifies violence because the world itself will not form 574 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: to this errant belief. And so if you can't accept 575 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: anything else as real, you're going to do violence on 576 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: the people who insist in living in a way that 577 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: does not conform to that belief you have about the world. 578 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: So the thing Wilson and Shay want to do is 579 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: soften people's understanding of what reality is and the hope 580 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: that it will stop a lot of this horrible shit 581 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: from happening. Right, that's the goal. Okay, Okay, this is 582 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: this is not going to work out perfectly, but it's 583 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: it's you understand where they're coming from, right, Yeah, I 584 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: mean I do, at least I do. I feel like 585 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: sometimes we think that like, oh, well, use sarcasm and 586 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: parody and irony. I feel like people who are versed 587 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: in the internet, well know why this doesn't work, you know, 588 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: and and the spoiler is that it doesn't. Yeah, but 589 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: you know what does work, Margaret, the exchange of money 590 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: for items. Oh, I was going to say, advertising, Oh, 591 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: it has. It has a more profound impact on human 592 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: cognition than almost anyone understand hands and in fact, in 593 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: the future will be considered to be a health hazard 594 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: on the same level as cigarette smoking. But for now, 595 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: it's what keeps podcasts on the air. So enjoy your 596 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: information hazard everybody, We're back, and have your kids considered 597 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: the benefit of smoking pall malls. Pall malls aren't just 598 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: the tastiest cigarette on the market. They're the cigarette that 599 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: has an extra long filter which helps those tiny hands 600 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: grasp and smokes safely. Sophie, you don't want kids to 601 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: hear the good news about pall mall cigarettes. The cigarette 602 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: crafted with tiny hands in mind, by tiny hands. Okay, 603 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm I'm hurt. Look you know, one of the tragic 604 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: lessons about advertising is that sometimes people consume different products 605 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: than they advertise. Yeah, fair enough, Just like I actually 606 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: kind of more into silver. Hmm. Well, it's like, you know, 607 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: I talk about how Lasik provided me with laser eye surgery, 608 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: but the reality is that I lashed a banshee uh 609 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: to the rock in my backyard. Sophie, I can't talk 610 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: about how I trained a banshee to fix my eyes 611 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: with the ice the okay, whatever, Sophie, Jesus unfair anyway, Discordians. 612 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: So Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shay start publishing all 613 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: of these weirdo letters by these weirdo Discordians, and eventually 614 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: like realize something is going on here, that it's not 615 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: just an increasing number of crazy people sending them conspiracy theories. 616 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And Robert Anton Wilson, when he finds this out, 617 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: is like so on board. He's like, this is the 618 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: best thing I've ever heard of. And he travels and 619 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: he go. He meets with Kerrie Thornley in nineteen sixties seven, 620 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 1: and as soon as Thornley explains the game to him, 621 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilson becomes a Discordian and he is immediately 622 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,479 Speaker 1: on board with all of this shit. Now, some other 623 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: stuff is happening while all of these figures are meeting. 624 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: At this point in time, a book called The Second 625 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: Oswald has been published, which is the first organized conspiracy 626 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: theory about a second gunman on the Grassy Knoll. And 627 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: at the same time, through this yes, it comes out 628 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: in this book that Carrie Thornley, this weird countercultural figure, 629 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: has ties to all of these people adjacent to the 630 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: conspiracy in the Second Oswald and the nature of this 631 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: coincidence that he's just sort of tied to all these 632 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: people that this book has argued, we're like helping to 633 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: carry out the assassination is too much for a lot 634 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: of people, and a growing chunk of the conspiracy culture 635 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: of the time convinces itself that Thornley was the second 636 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: gun man, and some versions of the conspiracy he's like 637 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: an Oswald double who is there to distract from the 638 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: fact that like, yeah, like the multiple Oswald basically right, 639 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: And a lot of people because Thornley looks like Oswald 640 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: and knows him, think that he's the second Oswald. Right. 641 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: One of the people who decides this is what's happened. 642 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: One of the people who comes to believe this about 643 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: the Kennedy assassination is Jim Garrison, the DA of New Orleans. 644 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: So Garrett, Yeah, that's not going to work. That's not 645 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: going to work out well for anybody. Garrison. Garrison, Hi, Garrison, 646 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: he started, you know, I know all of our names 647 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: except for Margaret, so fallen a bit far. I've been 648 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: deeply implicated in this conspiracy. So Jim Garrison starts investigating 649 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: Kerry Thornley in January of nineteen sixty eight, right after 650 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: Carrie and Bob Wilson meat, and he actually subpoenas Kerry 651 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: Thornley so he can ask Carrie about his relationship with Oswald. Now, 652 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: Thornley denies that he had been in any contact with 653 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: the assassination in any assassin, in any manner since nineteen 654 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: fifty nine. But Garrison comes to believe that Thornley is 655 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: part of the conspiracy and acted as a body double 656 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: for Oswald. And he also finds out that Oswald moved 657 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: to New Orleans right after Thornley, and that the year 658 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: before the assassination, they were both in Mexico City at 659 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: the same time. So he charges Carrie with perjury. This 660 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: is like a year's long fight Carrie has with like 661 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: a perjury charge over lying about his associations with Lee 662 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald. And this is a very situation Carrie had 663 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: actually been called in a lot of people don't know this. 664 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: Carrie Thornley testified to the Warren Commission in nineteen sixty 665 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: four because he had published his book The Idol Warriors, 666 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: which was about Lee Harvey Oswald. And all he's talking 667 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,439 Speaker 1: about on the Warren Commission stuff is what he knew 668 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: about Oswald, right, But because he says he had no 669 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: more contact with him, this is a really you can 670 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: get in shitloads of trouble for lying in a congressional 671 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: inquiry like this, right, Like you are not allowed to 672 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: do that. So the fact that they're a year after 673 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: he testified, he also released a book just titled Oswald Yes, 674 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: like the same exact year that the Principia was first 675 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: was first being distributed. Because if I'm not mistaken when 676 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: he no, no, because he becomes convinced after a while, 677 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: I believe that Oswald. He starts believing that Oswald was innocent, 678 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: and then he comes to believe that Oswald did it, 679 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: and he eventually comes to believe something very similar to 680 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: what Jim Garrison believes. But he writes the book Oswald 681 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: kind of in the middle of all of these beliefs 682 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: because he knows the guy and yeah. Um, So Carrie 683 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: starts to get very paranoid at this point because in 684 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: the middle of creating a religion about secret societies where 685 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: they claim to be the Illuminati pulling the strings, he 686 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: has also become the center of the JFK assassination conspiracy 687 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: theory and is now being charged with perjury. So this 688 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: is what we call yes, yeah, yeah, one of the 689 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: years of putting up flyers asking for a president to 690 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: be assassinated if you don't want people to think you 691 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: might have done it. Hmm. Now you remember back when 692 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,919 Speaker 1: that Nazi paid him to do research on the Hitler book? 693 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: Oh god, yes, okay, so the book is title I 694 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: think it's like Hitler was not a bad guy, right. 695 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: Carrie becomes convinced that the guy and again this Nazi 696 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: is not a real person, Like there was a person 697 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: there because people saw carry talking to him, but the 698 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: name he gives is not a real person, right, So 699 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: there's a lot of that that's part of why this 700 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: guy gets wrapped. We don't know who this was. Carrie 701 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,720 Speaker 1: becomes convinced that that guy was a fed who paid 702 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: him to do this research, so there would be a 703 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: bunch of writing about Hitler under the title Hitler was 704 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: not a bad guy in Carrie's handwriting, and the state 705 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: could put it up as a manifesto after framing him 706 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: for killing Jfki. Yeah, that's that's what Carry starts to 707 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,879 Speaker 1: bleak because he's like, no one knows who this guy is. 708 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: This is such a weird thing that somebody paid me 709 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: to do. Someone just wanted my name on this, like 710 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: Nazi things, so they could argue like I was involved 711 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: in it. Because he also sees that what Garrison is 712 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: doing is trying to bring him into this and blame 713 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: the assassination on him, So he's not there are people 714 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,439 Speaker 1: in the government trying to pin the assassination. Yeah. Yeah, 715 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: but he's also he's also locked in this conspiratorial mindset 716 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: now in part as recreation, so he kind of just 717 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: starts to go crazy. Now, yeah, that tracks. Carrie is 718 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: also at his heart a prankster, and despite the severity 719 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: of the situation he is in, he cannot help himself, 720 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: but fuck with Jim Garrison. And I'm going to quote. 721 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from the very interesting book The 722 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: Prankster in the Conspiracy, which is by that that go 723 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: Rightly Guy, and is a biography of Carry, primarily quote. 724 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: Sometime in nineteen sixty eight, during the course of the 725 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: Garrison investigation, Carrie discovered that one of Garrison's aids, Alan Chapman, 726 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: belief that the jfk assassination had been the work of 727 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: the Bavarian Illuminati, that ancient in fraternal order, much ballyhooed 728 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 1: by right wing conspiracy theorists such as the John Birch 729 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: Society as a centuries old secret society behind communism and 730 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: damn near every other socialist inspired ill then corrupting the 731 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: world and poisoning our precious bodily fluids. In response to 732 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: all of this Bavarian Illuminati paranoia, Carry, in the midst 733 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: of Garrison's probe, decided to mind fuck Garrison all the 734 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: more by sending out spurious announcements suggesting that he Carry 735 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: was an agent of the Bavarian Illuminati. These communicates were 736 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: sent under the auspices of the Discordian Society. The mind 737 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: fuck eventually got Carrie interested in the history of this 738 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: mysterious secret society, and the more he read about the 739 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: Bavarian Illuminati, the more fascinated he became. Eventually, Kerry and 740 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: his fellow Discordian conspirators started planting stories about the Discordian 741 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: Societies age Old War against the Illuminati, accusing everyone under 742 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: the sun of being a member of that sinister and 743 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: sneaky organization, from such politicos as X and LBJ. Daily 744 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: and William Buckley to Martian invaders and various conspiracy buffs, 745 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 1: plus members of the Discordian Society itself, which made it 746 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: all very confusing and extremely hilarious. So he starts sending 747 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: fake letters claiming that he's in the agent of the 748 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 1: Illuminati to one of Garrison's aids, who believes that the 749 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: jfk assassination was the work of the Illuminati and is 750 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: actively investigating him for his complicity in that crime. Yeah. You, look, 751 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: whatever you think of the wisdom and ethics of this, 752 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,879 Speaker 1: you have to respect that commitment. Yeah. No, I mean, 753 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: if someone's like that'd be like if I resolve if 754 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: if when people are like, oh, you're an evil Satanist, 755 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,959 Speaker 1: I'd be like, yes, I personally brought Satan back from 756 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: the dead and used him to do this actual crime 757 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: that happened. I am the literal Christian devil, and I 758 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: killed all those kids at that elementary school and whatever whatever. 759 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: The one that started the Satanic mannock was Yeah, I 760 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: forget Mountain Mountain Meadows seem No, that's the Mormon massacre. 761 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: I've lost track, you know whatever. By the early nineteen seventies, 762 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: Carrie Hill and Robert Anton Wilson have a name for 763 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: this combination prank act of political terrorism that they've sort 764 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,399 Speaker 1: of lapsed into committing. They start to call it Operation 765 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,720 Speaker 1: mind Fuck. Jmr. Briggs writes the aim of Operation mind 766 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: Fuck was to lead people into such a heightened state 767 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: of bewilderment and confusion that their rigid beliefs would shatter 768 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: and be replaced with some form of enlightenment. Now that 769 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: may have been optimistic, yeah, yeah. It is worth noting 770 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: that the Discordians are not the only anarchist weirdos thinking 771 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,800 Speaker 1: along these lines at the time. In nineteen sixty seven, 772 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: another group of anarchists on the UC Berkeley campus had 773 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,320 Speaker 1: formed a group called the Bavarian Illuminati and had started 774 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: sending out weird press releases with the gold of giving 775 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: conspiratorially minded people something to get paranoid about. And the 776 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,760 Speaker 1: lady who founds this group at Berkeley later becomes friends 777 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: with Thornley and becomes a Discordian and is now a 778 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: right wing crank journalist. This is the worst thing that's 779 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: happened in this episode. Yeah, oh no, don't don't worry. 780 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: Something a lot worse is coming, Margaret. Oh no, okay, 781 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,720 Speaker 1: so this is like but also this type of stuff 782 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: is not that he's not superly good, disissimilar to like 783 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: the situationists, Yes, which we will. We'll be chatting about 784 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: them in a little bit too, which I think is 785 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,439 Speaker 1: useful context to give people. But yeah, Operation mind Fuck 786 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: becomes a mix of deliberate paranoid incitement an anarchist political project. 787 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: Some of the press, some of the press releases they 788 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: send out are just like conspiracy nonsense, but others are 789 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: comparatively serious where they are advocating for specific political acts. 790 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: They put out a big paper urging a permanent universal 791 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: rent strike, and their idea is that everyone should just 792 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: start stop paying rent and go about their lives as normal. 793 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: So there, it's this mix of like, here things we 794 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: actually believe, and here's a bunch of crazy conspiracy theories. 795 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: This mix of conspiratorial incitement and sincere attempts to push 796 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: some political change was a conscious aping of a strategy 797 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: that Greg Hill, who wrote under the name mal Eclipse 798 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 1: the Younger, had come across in a book titled The 799 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: Theory of Games and Economic Behavior. The authors had argued 800 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: that the only strategy an opponent can't predict is a 801 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: random one. Hence what became the New Religion's maxim, we 802 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: Discordians must stick apart. Now, Yeah, it's like what they're 803 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: what they're doing is like a thing in game theory. 804 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: We do actually talk about this in the Chess episodes, 805 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: where like, if you're like a random weirdo, like you 806 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: can sometimes beat people in these games who are much 807 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: better than you because you just are not acting in 808 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: a way that it can they can possibly predict. Right, Yeah, 809 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: there are arguments that I've been reading a little bit, 810 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: and forgive me, I know very little about go, but 811 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: basically one of the things that people will say is 812 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: that like a good chess computer cannot be beat by humans, 813 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: right like when it's when it's playing it It's like 814 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,240 Speaker 1: we are past the point where human beings can beat 815 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,720 Speaker 1: the machines and chessum. But you they kind of don't 816 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: have computers at go that are that reliable at beating 817 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: human beings. They're they're good, um, And some of this 818 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 1: has to do there's just been less work in doing 819 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: this with machines that play Go. But one of the 820 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: things people will notice that because there are so many 821 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: more possibilities and Go, human players can just do crazy 822 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: shit and the machine gets kind of tripped up right 823 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: in a way that's not as possible with chess, because 824 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: there's less sort of options that you have in them 825 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: of chess than you do with Go. Um. Anyway, I 826 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 1: find this interesting. Not an expert on Go. Another inspiration 827 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: for Thornley Hill, Robert Anton Wilson, Robert Shay, and the 828 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 1: other early Discordians are the situationists. As Garrison just said, now, 829 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: these are a group of avant guard artists and activists. 830 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: They start out in France. Their basic contention this isn't 831 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,439 Speaker 1: like the fifties, right, So this is in the period 832 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,360 Speaker 1: of time and when like Greg and Carry are like 833 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,919 Speaker 1: teenagers and young adults, is when the situations are kind 834 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,279 Speaker 1: of at their most influential, and the basic contention that 835 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: the situations have is that culture, in the form of 836 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: advertising and increasingly slick mass media, is being forced upon us. 837 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 1: The situationists believe that you should resist cultural homogeneity with 838 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: a sort of artistic judo, taking the momentum of mass 839 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,399 Speaker 1: media and turning it back against its wielder. Situationist art 840 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: projects were supposed to have no single author or creator, 841 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,720 Speaker 1: as they value decentralization of creation. Artists would work together 842 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: under shared names and rejected the idea of the visionary 843 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: out tour. Again you can see how this had a 844 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: big influence on what would Greg and Carry and the 845 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: others are doing. Key to this thinking is the idea 846 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,799 Speaker 1: of the spectacle, originally defined by guide Aboard as the 847 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: autocratic rain of the market economy. The media is one 848 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 1: outward expression of the form of this autocratic rain. As 849 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,840 Speaker 1: a Board wrote, rather than talk of the spectacle, people 850 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: often prefer to use the term media, and by this 851 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: they mean to describe a mere instrument, a kind of 852 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: public service. Now this is all a little bit wonky, 853 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,280 Speaker 1: so I want to turn to a paragraph by Tierman 854 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: Morgan and Laurie Pergey explaining the concept in more detail. 855 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,279 Speaker 1: Debord describes the spectacle as capitalism's instrument for distracting and 856 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,800 Speaker 1: pacifying the masses. The spectacle takes on many more forms 857 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: today than it did during Debord's lifetime. It can be 858 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 1: found on every screen that you look at. It is 859 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: the advertisements plastered on the subway and the pop up 860 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 1: ads that appear in your browser. It is the listical 861 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: telling you ten things you need to know about X. 862 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: The spectacle reduces reality to an endless supply of commodifiable 863 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,440 Speaker 1: fragments while encouraging us to focus on appearances. For Debord, 864 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:51,200 Speaker 1: this constituted an unacceptable degradation of our lives. And by 865 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,239 Speaker 1: the way, all of this stuff has a huge influence 866 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,920 Speaker 1: on the Wachowskis and is kind of like the basis 867 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: of the Matrix movie, which ausies in verse black that 868 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: that ship gets fucking turned around. Yeah, sure it does. Yeah. 869 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,320 Speaker 1: This is one of those things where I have a 870 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: lot of sympathies with this, with the situationists, and I 871 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,000 Speaker 1: like that style of practis. But also this thing can 872 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: get turned in on itself, turned in on itself, like 873 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: can you can never actually escape the loop? You can 874 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: only try to loop it even tighter and then hopefully 875 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,680 Speaker 1: it will collapse in on itself. But yeah, it will 876 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,439 Speaker 1: keep because we keeps described. We haven't described the loop 877 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: that Deboard sets up quite yet for people. But but 878 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,279 Speaker 1: hold on to that thought because I do want to. 879 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 1: I want to come back to that in just a second. 880 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: So Debord is convinced that art has failed and is 881 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: essentially dead as a thing capable of carrying meaningful countercultural messages. 882 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,719 Speaker 1: And this is because the spectacle is an expert at 883 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,880 Speaker 1: something called recuperation, where ideas and individuals that were initially 884 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:55,560 Speaker 1: subversive are trivialized, cleansed of their revolutionary potential, and reincorporated 885 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 1: to mainstream capitalist society as commodities. The easiest example of 886 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: this is like a shape Guivara T shirt, Right, this 887 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 1: communist revolutionary being turned into this like shirt that you 888 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 1: buy at a head shop that's owned by a hedge fund. Right, Yeah, 889 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: Like a podcast about like cool revolutionaries in history that's 890 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: like exactly the corporation that's ever existed. These are all 891 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: good examples, Margaret, thank you. From Kimberll Valanov's Out in 892 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:24,880 Speaker 1: My Head, the way the situation is suggested fighting against 893 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,399 Speaker 1: recuperation was called determment, which is what Garrison was talking 894 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,400 Speaker 1: about a little bit ago, and it is the recontextualizing 895 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,000 Speaker 1: of an existing work of art in order to shift 896 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 1: its meaning towards something that inspires revolutionary feelings. Now, the 897 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:43,120 Speaker 1: situationalists are also motivated by the concept of psychogeography, which 898 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: is a way of describing one's surroundings in order to 899 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: like influence their emotional state. It's a little bit difficult 900 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 1: to describe some of the situationalists art over a podcast, 901 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,360 Speaker 1: but one thing that they would do in Paris is 902 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: they would like cut up and reshuffle maps that were 903 00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: then given to people in order to encourage people to 904 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: under two different parts of the city that they would 905 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: not otherwise have traveled to and thus build connections between them. Right. 906 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,640 Speaker 1: This is kind of part of what they're trying to 907 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,319 Speaker 1: do here, is trying to cut their What they saw 908 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,200 Speaker 1: is the power that maps had over how humans thought 909 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,480 Speaker 1: about the geography of their cities. This is also a 910 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 1: response to the fact that city planners like set up 911 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,840 Speaker 1: cities in such a way to keep certain groups of 912 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,759 Speaker 1: people apart. Right, I mean, you can think about the 913 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: way this existed whatever city you live. This is a 914 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 1: part like look at the way bike lanes are always 915 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,799 Speaker 1: set up, right. They don't go to poor neighborhoods as 916 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,440 Speaker 1: a general rule. They connect affluent parts of town to 917 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: affluent parts of town or places where people shop. It's 918 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: not one hundred percent of the case, but that is 919 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 1: a lot of them, right. This is a thing that 920 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:41,800 Speaker 1: the situation is still recognizing when this is one of 921 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,239 Speaker 1: the things in which that the kind of art that 922 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: they're doing is trying to fight against. This all sounds 923 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,320 Speaker 1: very heavy, but situationist art is often credited with sparking 924 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: a massive series of riots in Paris in nineteen sixty eight, 925 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: which is right within the time period we're talking about. Obviously, 926 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 1: the situation ationist international kind of falls apart eventually for 927 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: the same reason most left wing movements do. But the 928 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,319 Speaker 1: tactics that they'd pioneered and the goal of their work 929 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 1: gets kind of stuck in the teeth of the global left. 930 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: And that's all happening kind of in the period of 931 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: time before and right at the height of what well, right, 932 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: the start at least of what the Discordians are doing. 933 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,759 Speaker 1: Um all, right, now, now we can talk about it Garrison. Yeah, 934 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's just one of those It's 935 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: just one of those things that because we've even seen 936 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 1: like this situation, has tried to get ahead of that 937 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: type of recuperation and it's just a very hard thing 938 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,400 Speaker 1: to do. Like it's it's, it's it is. It is 939 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,880 Speaker 1: one of those things that eventually there there are attempts 940 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,840 Speaker 1: to even to even put that recuperation and commodify that 941 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: even aspect of it. It's like one of the few 942 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 1: good jokes in Rick and Morty that I that I 943 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,800 Speaker 1: stand by is the is the is the freedom wafer 944 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:02,000 Speaker 1: selects of of like distilling this brain juice that is 945 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,880 Speaker 1: that is that is that that gets them like grown 946 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: during an act of rebellion and selling that back to 947 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,160 Speaker 1: you so you can consume and have that same feeling 948 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,719 Speaker 1: of rebellion. And it's yeah, it's it's it's this. It's 949 00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: this mechanism that can just keep on going into itself 950 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,160 Speaker 1: and getting trying to break out if that is I 951 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 1: mean a topic of a lot of this type of 952 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 1: political theory. But so yeah, it's this um oh sorry, Margaret, Oh, 953 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,040 Speaker 1: just like this idea that the de tournament thing used 954 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,239 Speaker 1: to make a lot of sense to me. I grew 955 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: up in Adbusters and stuff like the late nineties early 956 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,319 Speaker 1: We'll chat about them a little bit later. Yeah, yeah, 957 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 1: like that was like I was in art school and 958 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 1: Adbusters came around, and then I dropped out of art 959 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,960 Speaker 1: school to go travel and try and do anarchy or whatever, 960 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,360 Speaker 1: And these are related thoughts. Yeah, and the de Tournament 961 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: and all that was a big part of it. But 962 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,120 Speaker 1: I like but seemed tornment then loop so many times 963 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm kind of back to just like regular direct cultural 964 00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 1: attack just making art. Yeah, you just fucking do the 965 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: things you believe in, and you say the things you 966 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: believe into people, and you just fucking try like instead 967 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: of the Judo thing, you just punch him in the face, 968 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, I Margaret, I hadn't thought this until just now, 969 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: but it kind of occurs to me that you can 970 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: argue that the situationists part of what they're doing is 971 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,279 Speaker 1: similar to what VII Shopped was doing way back in 972 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,040 Speaker 1: the day. It's this thing that like you have to 973 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: hide your message one way or the other, right that 974 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,560 Speaker 1: like that has to be a part of it. Like 975 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,799 Speaker 1: there's it's interesting this like because I'm thinking about like 976 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: I can remember there's a lot of folks on the 977 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,440 Speaker 1: left who part of like will celebrate And I'm not 978 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:42,879 Speaker 1: saying this is wrong, but like one of the things 979 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: they love about The Matrix is that it is so 980 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: clearly inspired by the situation is like down to the 981 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 1: path fact that like, at the very beginning of the movie, 982 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,040 Speaker 1: Neo has a copy of a book called The Society 983 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 1: the Spectacle, right, like that's believe, I believe he has 984 00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,480 Speaker 1: a semi laker and Stimulation which oh sorry, sorry, it's 985 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:03,520 Speaker 1: it's right, which was which was inspired by the writings 986 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: of Society of the Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah um. And 987 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: so it's like, is that an example of an insurgent 988 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,680 Speaker 1: form of art being snuck into a massive Hollywood blockbuster 989 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:18,840 Speaker 1: or is the move? Is the Matrix itself an example 990 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: of the recuperation of what the situationists were doing, because 991 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,960 Speaker 1: it's this multi billion dollar franchise, And then even and 992 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,879 Speaker 1: then even the Matrix is rebellious messages get recuperated by 993 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,400 Speaker 1: fascism with with the res is talking about red pills, 994 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,879 Speaker 1: but sister screams at him, but but and then on 995 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,799 Speaker 1: but then the fourth Matrix film is about the recuperation 996 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,640 Speaker 1: of the first of Matrin and it's it's looping on 997 00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,799 Speaker 1: itself endlessly, and this is this is what operation mind 998 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,799 Speaker 1: fuck is really after. It's about causing this loop to 999 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,719 Speaker 1: destroy people's brains and make reality incredibly malleable, and that 1000 00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: is that that is the goal of this sort of thing. 1001 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,240 Speaker 1: I would argue, they're not trying to destroy people's brains. 1002 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,760 Speaker 1: And I think that because again, the story we're building 1003 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,480 Speaker 1: too is this does all go terribly wrong. But I 1004 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: think an argument you could make if your pro mind 1005 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:14,200 Speaker 1: fuck is that, well, the situationalists were cool, but also 1006 00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: it would have been a real bad thing if people 1007 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: had believed too strongly in what they were doing and 1008 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:24,200 Speaker 1: and come to like treat these ideas of determment as 1009 00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,960 Speaker 1: if it is something you should take that seriously, as 1010 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,240 Speaker 1: like the most effective way of fighting against capitalist modernity, 1011 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: and maybe getting people to think this way and start 1012 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: looking at these kind of loops of recuperation in which 1013 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: these things the situationalist created created this multibillion dollar franchise, 1014 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,640 Speaker 1: and then that maybe that causes people to take all 1015 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: of it a little bit less seriously and treat it 1016 00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,760 Speaker 1: more like a tool in the toolbox rather than something 1017 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,320 Speaker 1: that should be the core of your personality. Yeah, and 1018 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 1: as I feel like some of the recuperation stuff, it's 1019 00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,560 Speaker 1: like people get mad because they punched someone and then 1020 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 1: they got punched back. It's like, right, I'm going to 1021 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,040 Speaker 1: do this thing that attacks capitalism. Capitalism is going to 1022 00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 1: look and be like, all right, well, what's the best 1023 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,920 Speaker 1: thing I can do? And they might try and use 1024 00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: that back against me, like of course they are. We're 1025 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,320 Speaker 1: we're fighting, Like I punched them and they punched me, 1026 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,520 Speaker 1: Like this is like, yeah, it's a it's a conflict. 1027 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: And in a conflict, um, you learn from the actions 1028 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,640 Speaker 1: of your adversary, which is why idea like you have this, 1029 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,520 Speaker 1: you have this very interesting uh anarchist group called Up 1030 00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: against the Wall. This is who I was thinking about 1031 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,360 Speaker 1: trying all this. Yeah. Yeah, cut the fence at woodstock, 1032 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,040 Speaker 1: which makes woodstock what it is in a lot of ways, 1033 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:45,840 Speaker 1: and then woodstock winds up in pepsi commercial Yeah. Um 1034 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: life and actually the situation it's kicked out the British 1035 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,560 Speaker 1: situationists because they liked Up against the Wall motherfuckers. Yeah, anyway, 1036 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,600 Speaker 1: Up against the Wall motherfuckers had a conflict with the 1037 00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,800 Speaker 1: This is all sorry, we didn't need to go And 1038 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:01,800 Speaker 1: what if you want, I have a whole episode of 1039 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: A That's Up against the Wall Motherfuckers came out recently. Excellent, excellent. Well, 1040 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: we are going to cover all of this in more 1041 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,880 Speaker 1: detail lately, but I wanted to talk in this by 1042 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: talking about the situationists, because as the Discordian Church really 1043 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,880 Speaker 1: starts to take off in the early nineteen seventies, that's 1044 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,800 Speaker 1: the goal that Thornley and Hill and Robert Anton Wilson 1045 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: and Bob Shay and all their friends kind of have 1046 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,720 Speaker 1: as to in a very situationist manner, take the cultural 1047 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,040 Speaker 1: weight of these conspiracy theories that the John Birch Society 1048 00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: and the Right Our Sea as a method to power 1049 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:39,880 Speaker 1: and are using still to this day as a method 1050 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,200 Speaker 1: of power. And they are trying to, in a situationist manner, 1051 00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,640 Speaker 1: kind of like Judo, turn the weight of this stuff 1052 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,720 Speaker 1: back against itself by, as Garrison said, in some ways 1053 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of breaking the brains of the people who believe this, 1054 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,560 Speaker 1: by widening the field of play conspiratorially right, instead of 1055 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,200 Speaker 1: instead of the instead of the John Birch Society being 1056 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,800 Speaker 1: the only word on the illuminati. Well, let's expand what 1057 01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,880 Speaker 1: this fucker can be well beyond what they can control, 1058 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 1: and maybe the hope is that they can't manipulate people 1059 01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 1: as effectively and that maybe people even become less manipulatable. 1060 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 1: Now spoiler, this is debatable as to whether or not 1061 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: it works very well. Some people would argue that what 1062 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 1: the Discordians are about to do is build a very 1063 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,240 Speaker 1: well crafted gun and then leave it on the table 1064 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 1: in a room full of four year olds. But we 1065 01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,240 Speaker 1: will talk about that next week. Y'all got any plugables 1066 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:40,520 Speaker 1: to plug? Well? If you want to support people trying 1067 01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,520 Speaker 1: to use some of these same type of tactics in 1068 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,640 Speaker 1: defense of the forest, you can donate to the to 1069 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Solidarity Fund of the One of the posters 1070 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 1: I saw around Atlanta about about the topcop City stuff. 1071 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,800 Speaker 1: It it ended with a very situationist esque motto, which 1072 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,800 Speaker 1: was reality the battlefield. And yeah, so this type of 1073 01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,600 Speaker 1: thing is is continuing on today, and it's it's it's 1074 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,160 Speaker 1: it's not just people making propaganda, it's also people like 1075 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,160 Speaker 1: doing stuff physically in the real world and face the situationists, 1076 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 1: did you know? Yeah? Absolutely, And and there's people facing 1077 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,320 Speaker 1: legal consequences for it, and if you want to support 1078 01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,400 Speaker 1: this people that are that are experiencing state repression, you 1079 01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,440 Speaker 1: can donate to the Atlanta Solidarity Fund. Yes, donate to 1080 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:29,080 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Solidarity Fund. And it is it is good 1081 01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,520 Speaker 1: to keep in mind. This is why one of the 1082 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,720 Speaker 1: things I would like to leave liberal type folks, and 1083 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,200 Speaker 1: I don't mean that as like a slur, but like 1084 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,560 Speaker 1: folks who are kind of like more centrist in liberals 1085 01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 1: who we have a lot of listeners who are of 1086 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,160 Speaker 1: that tendency. What I would like to leave you with 1087 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,120 Speaker 1: is the next time you hear someone on the right 1088 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,040 Speaker 1: say something that is objectively factually wrong and feel the 1089 01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:55,000 Speaker 1: desire to dunk on them, consider whether or not you're 1090 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:59,040 Speaker 1: just feeding the loop, right, because reality is the battle 1091 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 1: field and you may not in fact be able to 1092 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:07,800 Speaker 1: damage their cause by locking into an argument with them, 1093 01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:13,120 Speaker 1: right that that that may be a doomed tactic in 1094 01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,360 Speaker 1: the way that we're talking about, a doomed tactic that 1095 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,120 Speaker 1: is much more in line with the people that I 1096 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,600 Speaker 1: tend to admire Politically. There's no political side has a 1097 01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,040 Speaker 1: monopoly on doomed tactics, but I think it is worth 1098 01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,720 Speaker 1: saying that if arguing with conservatives about the nature of 1099 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,920 Speaker 1: reality could change things. We would be in a different 1100 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:38,840 Speaker 1: situation right now, and perhaps other tactics are necessary. My 1101 01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Margaret is for the derieve my favorite of the situationist tactics, 1102 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,520 Speaker 1: which is gopher a walk and go for a walk 1103 01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:51,840 Speaker 1: where you don't normally go for a walk. I love 1104 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,680 Speaker 1: the idea of that as like a way to change 1105 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:56,440 Speaker 1: your scope of reality. I think that they did a 1106 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,920 Speaker 1: really good job of that. And then also a plug 1107 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,560 Speaker 1: that all of the references earlier about Jamie doing all 1108 01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,560 Speaker 1: of this, and that is Jamie Loftus, who has a 1109 01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,560 Speaker 1: bunch of podcasts on this very network, including My Year 1110 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: in Mensa UM and a bunch of other ones. And 1111 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,720 Speaker 1: then I and did Jamie do nine to eleven? We 1112 01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:18,320 Speaker 1: can't say she didn't. I actually think that we probably can. Okay, 1113 01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:23,600 Speaker 1: she comes from the northeast, Margaret, that's true. I mean 1114 01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:28,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true. Suspicious true, suspicious grade? Okay, 1115 01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:33,320 Speaker 1: the third grade? Nine to eleven three times three is nine. 1116 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,920 Speaker 1: Sophie also did too many too many conspiracy also, like 1117 01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,200 Speaker 1: didn't didn't we like just read that that um the 1118 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:45,520 Speaker 1: Illuminati was controlling the girl Scouts like they're specifically going 1119 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,280 Speaker 1: after they are organizations with kids to recruit them to 1120 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,560 Speaker 1: do these types of acts. Powerful that it all makes 1121 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:58,200 Speaker 1: sense now, because if we've learned one lesson in this series, 1122 01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,800 Speaker 1: it's that joking about this stuff never has consequences. Cos 1123 01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,800 Speaker 1: I was just so proud that got those things all 1124 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:15,080 Speaker 1: in one reference. That's good. That was good. All right, 1125 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 1: everybody go, um go make a conspiracy somewhere. You know 1126 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,560 Speaker 1: what I'll add. I'll add to what Margaret said about 1127 01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:27,960 Speaker 1: taking a walk another anarchist thinker, uh uh graver or 1128 01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,440 Speaker 1: David David grab Yeah, David Graber. One of the arguments 1129 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,240 Speaker 1: he made was that when you're out walking in a city, 1130 01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,680 Speaker 1: as often as possible, cross somewhere other than where you're 1131 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,520 Speaker 1: legally supposed to cross. But look both ways. Yeah, but 1132 01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,880 Speaker 1: look both ways. Don't get hit by a car post anyway. 1133 01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:54,520 Speaker 1: Goodbye Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 1134 01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,320 Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 1135 01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,360 Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 1136 01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:03,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.