1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account, 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence, 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen, the new 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. The search is on 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: for a missing two week old baby. She was only 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: fifteen days old, but even in that short time, Tim 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Callia McNown. 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: She was tiny. You had to feed her every two hours, 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: changing the little diapers, and her little head was about 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: the south of what tinis balls. Her parents said they 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: fed and changed her at Fine and Saturday. They reported 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: her missing at ten that morning. Saton Ny, I wanted 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: your the emergency. I just woke up my dot want 18 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: me up on accounts. I had a tew year old 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: and I had two weeks old. My two weeks old 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: is not sleep for her pastors on the floor. She's 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: known her, she's not she's not here. Who got my kids? Man? 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: But don't want my kid back? Man, that's my job 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: and I want my kid. Man. You know, typically when 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: there's a newborn, there are balloons in the front yard, 25 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: there is a celebration, there's a florry of texts and 26 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: emails and baby photos that go out. Instead of when 27 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: Khaliah McNabb was just fifteen days old, she goes missing. 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: What happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories, and 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: we want answers. I want you to first listen to 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: the nine one one call. I wanted yours the emergency. 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: I just woke up my dot up on the couch. Um. 32 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: I have a two year old and I have a 33 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: two weeks old, and my my two week old is 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: not in her sleeper, her pass He is on the floor. 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: She's not in her sleeper. She's not in her sleeper, 36 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: she's she's not here. I've looked everyone, I've looked under 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: clothes and everything. What's your addressing? Highway thirty six one? Yes, 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: thirty one. Do you think somebody took her? Ma'am? My 39 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: child said, my two year old said, she's gone. And 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: I've looked everyone in the house, so I don't I 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: don't know another possibility. What lat number are you at? 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Thirty one? Okay? And you said you were sleeping, woke 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: up and she was gone. Yeah, my my my two 44 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: year old cane worked me up. That's r that's was 45 00:02:49,840 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: on account. How old is she? Ma'am? Two weeks old? Okay? O? Man? 46 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: You know who else would have come in your house? 47 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: I mean, as far as I know, nobody would have 48 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: came in my house. My two roads has popping. But 49 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: I called my dad and I called my grandparents and 50 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: they don't have a My dad's on the way her. Now, okay, 51 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: all right, how long have you been sleep? Um? The 52 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: last time I look up with her was around I 53 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: guess five maybe. Okay, So you were a sleep at 54 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: five o'clock? Yes, I didn't even mean to a sleep 55 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: on the couch I put down after dealing with her 56 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: on North Country? Or can you tell if someone's been 57 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: there is our blanket? They're gone? Her blankets gone, her past. 58 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: He is here on the floor a blankets not with us. 59 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what I mean, I don't know. I 60 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: guess it's with her. Okay, And I have clothes and toads, 61 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: but I've looked all in and she's not here. Anything 62 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: else missing, like a baby bag and she would that 63 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: she would have or anything el her bottles here on 64 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: top of my sholf. Okay, in my bathroom, ma'am. Huh. 65 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: What about anything else that could possibly have gone, like, 66 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: could be her that could have gone with it? Um, No, 67 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: nothing else with her in her blanket Okay. So the 68 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: only thing is miss that's missing is her in her blanket. Yeah, 69 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: he didn't talk to the dad or grandma or anybody 70 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: walking around the park looking for her. Thanks, I'll pick 71 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: up the rest. I'll pick up the rest, and just 72 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: for a moment with me right now. Director of the 73 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: Cold Case Institute, Cheryl McCullum, Death Seen It investigator, forensics 74 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: expert Joseph Scott Morgan, professor at Jacksonville State University, psychologists 75 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: out of New York here and Stark and Crime Online 76 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: investigative reporter Lee Egan. Cheryl McCullum, I'm gonna go back 77 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: to the NIMO and call because that's where we start 78 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: every investigation as we try to establish a timeline. This 79 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: is around ten a m. In the morning. The mom 80 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: says she last saw her at five o'clock. But I've 81 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: I've got a lot of questions I want to throw 82 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: at you. Tell let me just start with I've been 83 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: dealing with her all night, says the mother. I've been 84 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: dealing with her. I've been dealing with her all night. 85 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: When I say, and maybe I'm projecting, but when I say, 86 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna have to deal with that, I'm 87 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: dealing with it. Deal with it, cope with it, handle it. 88 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: That's not a positive thing. That is not I mean, 89 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: that's my interpretation that leaked out me. If anybody says 90 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: deal with that, they mean handle something that's not right. 91 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: It's not good, no question about it. The very first 92 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: thing that leaked out at me. As you always want 93 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: to know where the person chooses to start. There. Now, 94 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: in one call, she chooses to let you know, hey, 95 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: I just woke up. My two year old woke me up. 96 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: She's letting you know I'm building al aby people out 97 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: of the sleep. So I can't possibly know anything. So 98 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: right off the bat, I'm concerned because you would expect 99 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: to hear a friend, you know what, hold on, well 100 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: what let me let me just let that soak in 101 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: a moment, because I'm feeling it in my skin. Actually, 102 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: I can feel what you're saying, because the hair on 103 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: my arms going up. Because I've told you this story, 104 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: all of you have heard it. Don't whine that when 105 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: John David went missing at the superstore Toys r us 106 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: Or Babies are Us. I turned around. I looked two 107 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: or three aisles. I didn't see him. I didn't walk 108 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: up to got a guy or a woman in the 109 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: little smack top I and said hey, I was back 110 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: there and with my other baby, and I was nowhere. No. 111 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: I started screaming my baby boys, God locked the doors. 112 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: Now screaming, I mean hysteria. It sounds like I had 113 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: a siren in my throat. Right, I hear what you're saying. 114 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: And again, this mother has not been charged. She is 115 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: not a person of inches, She is not a suspect. 116 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: She certainly hasn't gone in front of a jury, had 117 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: been convicted. We're talking about the nine one one call. Okay, Cheryl, 118 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: I'm projecting my feelings onto her. Now, let let's let 119 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: me go back to your analysis. You expect to hear 120 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: somebody frantic nacy. You expect for her to be screaming. 121 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: You never hear this mother asked for help. You never 122 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: hear her say hurry, please get in here, I need you. Never. 123 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: In parts, she's extremely calm, she's is I mean, it 124 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: looked under closed. I've looked in toad. That's not possible. 125 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: That didn't even make sense to me. Right there, Karen Stark, 126 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: psychologist joining me, very well known psychologists out of New 127 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: York City, Karen Stark to say, I looked in the 128 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: tote bag like that doesn't even make sense to me. 129 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: The baby can can't even turn over, it's just fifteen 130 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: days old. It doesn't it can't even move to Why 131 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: would she say I looked to the tote bag. That's 132 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: a ridiculous giveaway. That's another giveaway, Nancy. I think I 133 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: feel like it's just coming out of her without her 134 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: even beginning to realize what she's saying. Also, you noticed 135 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: how often she keeps saying, my two year old told 136 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: me my twoets like the two year old is in 137 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: charge of this situation. The two year old noticed it. 138 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: The two year old said Papa was involved. And then 139 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: she says, but you know, Papa is my grandfather or 140 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: could be my father, and every thing is about the 141 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: two year old. Let's analyze this two years old. That's 142 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: a baby, Sheryl McCollum. Before I play more of it, 143 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: What more did you notice? In the first part, she 144 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: says she's gone the blankets with her. She notices the 145 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: passifier on the floor, which would not even be only 146 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: anybody's register if they noticed the baby's under the crib. 147 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: But she keeps going back to the blanket, So that 148 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: tells you the blanket is gonna be with the baby. 149 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: She black says, the blankets with her, but she cannot 150 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: utter the words she's missing, um, somebody kidnapped her. She's 151 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: not using words like that. I would notice the pass 152 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: I would notice the passy on the ground. I would 153 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: notice the passy on the floor. I would notice that, uh, 154 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: and I'd probably screaming the pass is here, but she's not. Um. 155 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: I might notice the blanket was gone, But when you 156 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: have a little baby, you've got a ton of blankets. 157 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: Usually you know everybody gives you a blanket it and 158 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: I would probably know. I don't know that. I would 159 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: notice the blanket was gone. But I hear what you're saying. 160 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: I don't hear any frank My baby's gone. My baby's 161 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: gone now here, the two year old told me, I 162 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: was asleep. I had to I've been dealing with her 163 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: all night. I looked in a tote bag of clothes 164 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: and she's not in there, as if she would be. Okay, guys, 165 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: let's hear the rest of this night on one call. Listen. 166 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: What about anything else that could possibly have gone, like 167 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: could be her that could have gone with it? Um, 168 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, nothing else, just her in her blanket. Okay, 169 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: So the only thing is miss Beth missing, as her 170 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: in her blanket. Yeah, he didn't talk to the dad 171 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: or grandma or anybody. My dad's looked hearing me. Dad 172 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: was left and he was walking around the park looking 173 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: for her because my two year old is I asked her, 174 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: did somebody to come in and take her? And she 175 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: said yeah, but I don't you know she too, So 176 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can that. We looked through everything, 177 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: like under the bed, yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. Okay, okay, 178 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: go are you all right? What's your name, ma'am? Courtney 179 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: Bell c O R C in E Y B E 180 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: L L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've been 181 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: on the way out there. I'm just getting this information 182 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: to update them. Okay, thank you so much. What's your 183 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: phone number? Um, I'm not sure if this number my 184 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: phone bust is the other day. Um, this is my 185 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: grandmother's phone. She's been with me, all right, So you 186 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: and the dad both were I'm just trying to get 187 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: to understand so i can let them know because uh, 188 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: of the questions that they're asking me, you and her 189 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: dad both were sleeping or he just came back home. Now, 190 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: we woke up together. She woke us up together. Okay. 191 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: The two year old woke uh y'all up and told 192 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: you all that the baby was gone. Yeah, okay, she 193 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: she was kind of freaked out. I mean, I don't 194 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, because she was just standing there beside 195 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: the house in the corner and I told her come here, 196 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: and I loved donor and then I told my baby's 197 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: bad to go check on Khalia. And then he's talking 198 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: about she's not in here, she's not in here. Okay, 199 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: well the police should be in the area. Now, thank you. 200 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and let you go. Okay, Okay, Sheryl McCollum, 201 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: I don't understand. Something is that the two year old 202 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: in the background, going daddy, daddy, daddy. Is that what 203 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: I'm hearing? I can't tell that's exactly Yep, that's what 204 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: you're hearing. And nathink you noticed she changed her story 205 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: in the nun would one. She originally says the two 206 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: year old woke me up, said the baby's gone. Then 207 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: she says, I sent the dad to go check on 208 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: the baby and he said she was gone. And then 209 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: she says, the two year old told me that, but 210 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: I didn't know whether or not I should believe it. Okay, 211 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: your baby's done. You missed one. You missed one. That 212 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: she was standing in the corner between the sofa in 213 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: the corner. Did I hear her say she was trying 214 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: to sneak out? She said she was freaked, freaked out, Okay, 215 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: that the baby is standing between the sofa in the corner, 216 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: and she loved on her and then then sent the 217 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: dad to go get Khaliah and that's when the baby's 218 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: The two year old says she's not there, and at 219 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: the end she goes, thank you so much. Yeah, I 220 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: mean that's what I taught. That's what I say to 221 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: the Verizon person when I paid my bill. Thank you 222 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: so much. I mean, I I have more feeling when 223 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: I'm trying to arrange adulta flight. At the end, I'm like, 224 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I can play out one more thing. Nancy, 225 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: He says, dad is out walking around. Yeah, that I 226 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: couldn't tell what she was saying. I made a note 227 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: of that walking around. But why because I can hear 228 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: the little two year old going daddy, Daddy, daddy. And 229 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: why would they be walking around outside? The baby can't 230 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: even turn over. Why would they think she's out on 231 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: the swing set? Same reason she said she thought she 232 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: could be in the toast for the same reason she 233 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: said she looked under clothes. Guys, we have more evidence 234 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: that we are sifting through. But I want to thank 235 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: our partner making this program on serious X in one 236 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: thirty two possible today and our search for justice and 237 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: for baby Khalia. It's legal Zoom. As a business owner, 238 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: you know how important it is to keep moving forward, 239 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: but things come up to take your time and focus 240 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: away from growing your business. 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So go 249 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: to legal zoom dot com now to take care of 250 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: business before the year winds down, and for special savings, 251 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: be sure to intercode Nancy in the referral box at 252 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: checkout legal zoom dot com. We're going straight back to 253 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: the disappearance of baby College is fifteen days old. What's 254 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: so odd about it? Joe Scott Morgan Joseph Scott Morgan 255 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: joining me, forensics expert professor at Jacksonville State University, is 256 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: that the minute the baby is found on these very 257 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: peculiar circumstances out in the woods in a tote bag. Interesting. 258 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna go back to Cheryl in a moment 259 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: and Karen and Lee Egan about the tote bag. We 260 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: hear totebag, topebag, topebag all the way through the Nina 261 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: one call. Joseph Scott Morgan, isn't the baby found in 262 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: a tote bag in the woods And the moment the 263 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: dad finds out about it, instead of falling down an angle, 264 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: she screams out, I didn't do it. Yes, yes, that's 265 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: absolutely correct, Nancy. Uh. And this is this is a 266 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: very important point here found within the tote bag. When 267 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: the initial reports came out, they were just saying, you know, 268 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: baby was wrapped in a blanket and placed in some 269 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: brush or beneath a log I think that came out. However, 270 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: this is really important, Nancy, and we need to pay 271 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: close attention to this. The child's body is inside of 272 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: a tote bag and wrapped in a blanket. Now, from 273 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: an evidentially standpoint, this is monumental because that that acts 274 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: almost like a cocoon where it protects the evidence that 275 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: could be found associated with a body. So this is 276 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: gonna be very important going forward. You know, I'm thinking 277 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: about another issue and Cheryl McCollum direct with the Cold 278 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: Case Institute, you know, I look back on all the murders, 279 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: the homicides, the man slaughters that I've investigated, covered, tried, 280 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: played the works. I mean, I don't know how many 281 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: thousands and that sounds crazy, like a crazy number, But 282 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: think about it, Cheryl, every week in the district attorney's 283 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: office in a felony courtroom might get about a hundred 284 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: new cases every week, sometimes twice a week, right, because 285 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: the grand jury meet twice a week. And so you 286 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: multiply that times four weeks a month, times twelve months, 287 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: times ten years, that's thousands of homicides. Think about it. 288 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: And when it's a random case, think about it. Think 289 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: about it. You find the body right there, carjacking, it's 290 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: right there in the parking lot, it's right there in 291 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: the driveway. The body is just laying there. Um, what's 292 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: in a great while? You'll find the body moved. Very 293 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: rarely will a random killer neatly put the baby in 294 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: a baby blanket, wrap it up, put it in a toe, 295 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: and lay it out in the woods. That's not how 296 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: a random murder happens. I can't really I don't know why. 297 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: I just know that that's true. You're warning us to 298 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: believe that a stranger came in and took that kind 299 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: of time as well, Neede, there's two things that are 300 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: gonna help with the timeline. That baby's diaper, right, that's 301 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: gonna show was the baby changed and fed at five 302 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: am or not? I can tell you're a mom the 303 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: baby's diaper. Hey, but it's key, right And the other 304 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: thing that I think is gonna come back to um, 305 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, bite the mom a little bit. And this 306 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: is now when one call is she never gave the 307 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: babies description. You're right, I mean, I can tell you 308 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: right now what the twins are wearing. I can even 309 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: tell you call me crazy, Karen start. I can even 310 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: tell you what color their socks are, and they're underwear 311 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: because I laid it out last night. M hm. I 312 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: can tell you right now. Nobody's asking me, so I 313 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: won't go into it. Yeah, you know what, You're right, 314 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: Lee Egan. What more do we know? I noticed a 315 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: little two year old according to the mom said Papa 316 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: did it. That's her. That's the two year olds grandfather, 317 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: the mom's dad. But in the background you hear the daughter, 318 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: the little two year old going daddy, daddy, daddy. What 319 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: do we know about the grandfather? The two year old 320 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: is in the grandfather's custody right now, so he's not 321 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: considered the person of the case. Again, she has not 322 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: been charged, she's not known as a suspect a person 323 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: of interest at all at this juncture, Karen, start, what 324 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: about Cheryl McCollum's observation. She never said what the baby 325 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: was wearing or whether baby even look like and she 326 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: never mentioned the baby's name as far as I can recall. 327 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: But she also listened to her voice, Nancy, as you said, 328 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: there's no hysteria, there's no she's being so polite, thank 329 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: you so much, thank you so much. And no, my 330 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: baby is missing. You don't hear that. You don't hear 331 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: her getting crazy over the fact that this baby is 332 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: only two weeks and she's checking a tote. I've got 333 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: so many notes, I hardly know where to start. Speaking 334 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: of the grandfather, listen to what he has to say. 335 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: She was tiny. You know, you had feet her every 336 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: two hours, changing a little diapers. Then her little head 337 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: was about the size of a tinis ball. There she 338 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: was so little. You know, from the first time that 339 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: you pick them up, there love there, that love is broken. 340 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: I mean it hurts like I have never heard before. 341 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: Now that is what you're hearing from the maternal grandfather. Okay, 342 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: Now keep in mind you never know what, if any 343 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: bad blood is between the wife's father and the husband. Okay, 344 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: so we don't know their history, we don't know why 345 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: he feels the way he does about the dad. I'm 346 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: talking about Christopher McNabb, who, as soon as he hears 347 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: the baby Khalia is missing and that she's found, he goes, 348 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: I didn't do it. That's the first thing he says. Okay, 349 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: let me go to Joseph Scott Morgan death scene investigator 350 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: and professor of forensics. Joe Scott, please evaluate the documents 351 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: we've just gotten from the courthouse. There's actually as as 352 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: stark as they might be, there's actually a wealth of 353 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: wealth of information in here. And uh, let me address this. 354 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 1: The police in their affidavits had stated that and this 355 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: is rather graphic, h Nancy, But the reality is they're 356 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: saying that this poor baby's skull, uh was absolutely decimated 357 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: and crushed. Okay. What they do say in here is that, 358 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: and it's it's key. They're saying that the baby was 359 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: struck by an unknown object. They're not saying hands, they're 360 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: not saying fist. They're saying that it was wielded. The 361 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: police are that the object was wielded by this father. 362 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: What that means is they've identified something. We don't know 363 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: what it is yet, and they might be able to 364 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: marry up a pattern here. And they're taking an object 365 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: and putting it in his hand. And that's key because 366 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: this isn't like a random striking event where you see 367 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: somebody that will ball up a fist. This is somebody 368 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: that took the time to go get an object and 369 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: then perpetrate this kind of trauma, this lethal trauma on 370 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: this low angel. You know, I'm just just thinking about 371 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: it because, um, I have a very young relative that 372 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: was hit by a van as a child and the 373 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: damage to the skull was just almost well, we didn't 374 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: know that he was going to live. I'm happy to 375 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: say he graduated with honors from college and a double major, 376 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: so he's brilliant. But I remember that damage, that horrible 377 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 1: damage to his head. I'm thinking about a little baby 378 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: laying in the crib and how this whole thing, Cheryl mccollo, 379 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: must have gone down. How How how did the mom 380 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 1: not know should hear the baby screaming or the two 381 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: year old didn't run into a room. But I can't 382 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: help it, Cheryl, I guess I'm projecting again, because that's 383 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: the single. I mean you you know my story. This 384 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: is single most important thing to me on earth, by 385 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: those babies, my bababy. There's no way that she didn't 386 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: hear the baby crying, and then the crying immediately stopped, 387 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: and he's run around getting the blanket, getting the toe bag, leaving. 388 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: There's no way she's not in some way full of 389 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: knowledge about what happened inside that home. Hell, the two 390 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: year old knows it, not just sick sick about it 391 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: about what I just got Morgan, Can we go back 392 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: to what we've learned about the m O, the method 393 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: of operation, the modus operandi, or what we know about 394 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: cause of death, manner of death. What exactly exactly do 395 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: we know? Well, they're they're not being very specific, and 396 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: let's keep in mind this is coming from the police, 397 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: not the medical examiner. This is being you know, told 398 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: to us by the police department. What we do know 399 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: is that disappears to be blunt force trauma. Another big 400 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: piece here is that if this injury is as bad 401 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: as they're saying that it is, Nancy, I I believe 402 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: that there will be transfer of evidence from that child's body, 403 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: and I'm talking specifically like blood evidence that would have 404 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: wound up back on the perpetrator of this, of this event, 405 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: this this horrible, horrible crime, and that is something they're 406 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: going to have to look at very very carefully. I 407 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: just hope that the clothing of this individual has been sequestered, 408 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: that he was not allowed to bathe. I hope that 409 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: they took very very detailed documentary photographs of this individual 410 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: as well and examine him from stem to sturma. Well, 411 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm also thinking, Karen stalk about what the two year 412 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: old may have seen and could possibly relay, because you 413 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: hear her in the background saying daddy, daddy, as the 414 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: mom's talking and I want one. You hear the two 415 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: are going daddy, dad, me, and you hear her talking. 416 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: You hear them talking about the fact. You hear the 417 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: mother saying the two year old told her. And when 418 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: you think about two years old, how traumatic that is. Nancy, 419 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: remember when the twins were too. That's so young they 420 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: still remember things from when they were too. By the way, 421 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: of course, they do want you to hear one more 422 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: piece of evidence that we have right now of a 423 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: convenience store clerk that came upon the father, Christopher McNabb. 424 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: He just came in and he said, how you remember 425 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: me from last night? And I said another. He said, 426 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: you sure, I'll see yes her. He remember my baby's 427 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: the one that got kidnapped. And I said to leave me, y'all, 428 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: be leave me to see him the thing him and 429 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: then they were standing there and I said, please don't 430 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: leave me. And then he started haling and talking about 431 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: they're gonna get me, They're gonna get me. I've been 432 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: running on Davin in the woods all day and I 433 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: tried to call im one one, anyone. He would go through, 434 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: and I was called again when you go through, And 435 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: then the third time I called went through and he's 436 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: still seeing you here, and I said, uh. He said, 437 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: they're not gonna get me, he said, and he didn't 438 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: anybody trust them. Well mean they're gonna get in trouble too, 439 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you 440 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: like that, you know. And then he went to the door. 441 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: And when he went to the door, I hit it 442 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: again and got nine one one, and down I come 443 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: nine one one again and I got him and I said, 444 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: he's here. He's at thirty six at the Chevron. He's 445 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: in my store. He's going praisey. I don't know what 446 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: his problem is, but he said he was running from 447 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: the cops. He'd been hit in the woods all day. 448 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: I said, he's he's really scary. Somebody needs to get 449 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: here quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is 450 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: is dead. What does that mean to you? He's considering 451 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: a person's of interest. He is a person of interest. 452 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: But he kept saying I didn't do it. I didn't 453 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: do it. We didn't do it. They did it. And 454 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: when y'all are gonna be surprised when y'all found out 455 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: who really did it. But I didn't do it. And 456 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: you're hoping that somebody comes for because they're still now. 457 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: I was just hoping they wouldn't leave me in the 458 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: store by myself, because I mean, you know, he just 459 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: leaves to what people say. And he came to the register, 460 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: you know, he paid. He said something to the cashier. 461 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: I couldn't because he's kind of mouth. But then he 462 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: turned around and he bagged and he looked at everybody 463 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: me and can't come and cat call cattle's right there 464 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: and come a cat in his dog? You know, man, 465 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,239 Speaker 1: I looked at us and say it. I'm telling all 466 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: y'all they're looking for me, and I've been hiding in 467 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: the wools, he said, But I didn't do it. I 468 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: just want the world no, I didn't do that to 469 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: my baby. And young man looked like he was exhausted 470 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: and whatever. This man like he's running in film. But 471 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: sometimes you know, you just got to stop and talk 472 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: to the police, let him know what's really going on. 473 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: But he said that, he said, I'm telling the world 474 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: and everybody in this though I didn't kill my baby. 475 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: I didn't well, I didn't do that. We were candy, 476 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: he said, I didn't do that because I told I said, 477 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: with service or what happened to your child? You know? 478 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: And he got I was just stoked so fast. And 479 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: then that's when men kind of sounds to him related 480 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: and uh, catch on calling police, police. And now we 481 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: travel to Florida where a man guns down hold on, 482 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: I hope you're sitting down for this. A man guns 483 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: down another man from making a pass at his imaginary girlfriend. 484 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: Let me let that soap in just a moment. Alan 485 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: Duke first of all, Alan Jake with me. Dr Tiffany Sanders, psychologist, 486 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, and John Limley Crime Stories Contributing 487 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: investigative reporter Alan Duke Uh an imaginary girlfriend. Can I 488 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: just tell you something. There was a movie, I'm trying 489 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: to remember which one it was, where there's a little 490 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: character as a cartoon and he's always talking about his 491 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: girlfriend from Canada, and he's going he always says, she's real, Bro, 492 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: she's real. That's not a Google image, Bro, she's from Canada. 493 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: She's gorgeous and a the bottom it says Google image. 494 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: It's ug. It's not real. It's not a real girlfriend. 495 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: She's not from Canada. It's an imaginary girlfriend. Okay, I 496 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: think it's coming back to me. I think it was 497 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: in Stark. I'm not sure. Okay, back to you, Alan Dick. 498 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: Imaginary girlfriend. You can go ahead and confess. Now you're 499 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: married to a beautiful woman. I've seen her. She's real 500 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: or else he paid somebody a lot of money to 501 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: pretend it was. And I've seen the wedding photos. It's real. 502 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: But Alan, come on, you've had an imaginary girlfriend before? Yes, 503 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: I have actually had probably an elementary school there was 504 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: Debbie was sitting across the aisle, uh the row from me, 505 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: and I always imagined she was my girlfriend. I think 506 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: this goes actually beyond Debbie in the first grade. This 507 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: is like not anybody that you've ever met. It's somebody 508 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't even exist. This guy has an imaginary girlfriend 509 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: and this lord of guy his name is Brian Disio, 510 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: who thirty years old, guns down David Armstrong after accusing 511 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: him of making a romantic advance at his nonexistent lover. 512 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: They're in Port Richie, Florida. Now, this is according to 513 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: the Tampa Bay Times. They report that the suspects mother 514 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: and her boyfriend were there at the time of the shooting, 515 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: and Pasco County Sheriff Chris Knocko quote, Please note, Brian 516 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: does not have a girlfriend. Okay, in his mind he did, 517 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: but in reality he didn't. Now, just correction to everybody 518 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: before Tiffany Sanders. Dr Tiffany gets cranked up about mental 519 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: illness on this one. Pretending you have a girlfriend is 520 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: not a mental illness. Let me just start with that. 521 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what happened here, Well, 522 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: what we know at this point is that at the time, 523 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: always said and done, there were two dead men. As 524 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned, Brian to Sarrio, a thirty year old man. 525 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: He fatally shot fifty six year old David Armstrong, a 526 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: friend of his mother's whom he believed was making advances 527 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: on his girlfriend, this girlfriend that doesn't exist. This happened 528 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: sometime in the afternoon on Thursday. We understand it was 529 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: just an hour before classes were to be dismissed at 530 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: a nearby elementary school, and that elementary school had to 531 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: be put on lockdown because once the police arrived, they 532 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: exchanged gunfire with the suspect right in the middle in heaven. 533 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: I didn't realize, Alan, do you there was a shootout? Alan, 534 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: You've got a daughter now, she's all grown up in 535 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: beautiful and all that now, but you remember when she 536 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: was a young girl. And I've gotten those um tech 537 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: emails from the school when they text out to all 538 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: the parents Alert Alert. I nearly pass out. When I 539 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: get one of those. I drop everything I'm doing. I 540 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: don't even read the whole thing. Then I find out, 541 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's high winds warning, or there are there's 542 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: a power surge, or you know, it's never anything serious. 543 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: But can you imagine a parent getting a text or 544 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: an email while they're at work saying we're in lockdown 545 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: because there's a mad shooter down the road. Well, truth 546 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: be told, it was probably my daughter they were texting about. 547 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: But the guys, that's not true. She's she's perfect in 548 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 1: every way. Go ahead, right, Yeah, No, I've actually been 549 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: in that situation and it's the scariest thing in the world. 550 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: And I remember very clearly when my daughter was in 551 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: elementary school, rushing to school because I got one of those. 552 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: It's terrible. Back to John Linley, I don't want to 553 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: get sidetracked on me getting a text from the children's 554 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: school when there's a power search. I want to get 555 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: back to what is at hand. There is a dead body. 556 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: There is a dead body, all because of an imaginary girlfriend. John, 557 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: Lily Alry tell me how this thing went down, John, Well, 558 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: what we understand is that the victim, the fifty s 559 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: year old man David Armstrong, was a friend of the suspect, 560 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: Brian to Sarrio's mother, and that he had gone over 561 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: Uh they were talking in the garage. Armstrong comes out 562 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: of the house and he confronts Armstrong. This is the suspect. 563 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: Confronts Armstrong and says, you know, uh, you need to 564 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: stop hitting on my girlfriend and apparently open fire right 565 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: then and there. But okay, I want to go to 566 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany Sanders. Psychologists joining us. Dr Tiffany, Now I 567 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: know I'm ready for you. Doctor. I'm ready for you 568 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: because I just put to it on the record. Men 569 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: pretending they have a girlfriend is the oldest, oldest trick 570 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: in the book. But I want to ask you, first 571 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: of all, why do people pretend they have sweethearts, lovers, girlfriends, whatever. Why? Well, 572 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: usually that's something that we do as kids, right, It's 573 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: part of our our our general being raised and growing up. No, 574 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: Dr Tithany Sanders, A child pretending to have an imaginary 575 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: friend is a lot different than a grown man acting 576 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: like he has a lover, alright, Because I guess I 577 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: grew up in that age where one of my favorite 578 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: t shirts was a woman needs a man like a 579 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: fish needs a bicycle. And I don't know where it 580 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: came from. I think I stole it from my sister. 581 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: So you know, I never pretended I had a boyfriend ever. 582 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: Either I had one or I was blissfully unattached. What 583 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: as a child we all do that? I did it. 584 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm like I had a friend that was from Puerto Rico. 585 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: I don't know why wait wait, wait wait, I've got okay, 586 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany, I think I need to bring on a 587 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: shrink to deal with. Dr Tiffany. Who is our shrink? 588 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: You didn't just have a friend. You had a friend 589 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: from Puerto Rico. I called him, you know, some Puerto 590 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: Rican sounding name. I just thow, Dr Tiffany, you know 591 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: what the name was? What was it? Enrique? I just 592 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: thought it was cute. You know, it is cute, That 593 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: is cute, and that was But that was as a child, 594 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: and I was watching a lot of news with my parents, 595 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: so I probably just made some associations, but as a 596 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: grown act. And now love you even more, Dr Tiffany, 597 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: because I've never seen a cheek in the armor before. 598 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: But now that I know you not only had any 599 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: imaginary friand but his name was Enrique. Totally in love 600 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: with you now go ahead. And it was cute, he 601 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:53,479 Speaker 1: was super cute. But of course, but in this particular case, 602 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: this is a man likely dealing with schizophrenia, some form 603 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: of delusional disorder about why people pretend they have girlfriend boyfriends. 604 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: But that's why this is someone who was seeing things here, 605 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: I mean regular people Dr Tiffany, regular people that do 606 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: every shrink I bring on insists that everybody's mentally ill. 607 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany, You know how much I respect you, right, 608 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: but I do not believe that pretending you have a 609 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: girlfriend it's a mental illness. I'm not talking about this guy, 610 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm asking you again in general, why do people pretend 611 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: they have girlfriends slash boyfriends? Why? Well, when you're an 612 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: adult and you have no friendships, you have poor social skills. 613 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: You know, you make things up to look normal. And 614 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: then in his mind he was trying to appear normal, 615 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: but he started things, shadows, images, something to the extent 616 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: that he thought that that person was Actually he was 617 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: having conversations, likely in his head with that person, and 618 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: and visual life gave him more than a name like 619 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: I did if I'm even last name, an occupation or 620 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: what have you. And then in his mind, delusional, he 621 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: saw his friend looked like he was making a pass. 622 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: It probably could have been an old refrigerator in the garage, 623 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: and he went local psycho and Tiffany, you're right, because 624 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: it boiled down to quote, an absolute gun bottle in 625 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: the middle of the street. I mean, Karen Smith joining 626 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: me forensics expert. You and I have seen a lot 627 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: of crimes, right, and Karen Smith and I, who's a 628 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: renowned forensics expert, I've actually performed a lot of scientific 629 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: expert experiments together, Karen. When you look out your window, 630 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: you might see the trash truck coming by, or you 631 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: might see you know, women in a cluster walking or 632 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: jogging or whatever. If you live in a big city, 633 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: you'll see you know, cars flying by the front of 634 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: your place like it's the interstate. But you typically don't 635 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: see a gun battle in the middle of the street. No, 636 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: you don't, and that would be not only disconcerting for 637 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: the neighborhood, but my god, right across from an elementary school. 638 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: That is terrifying. And what really struck me about this 639 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: is when I saw the article. Uh, this man had 640 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: one gun that he either emptied completely or it jammed, 641 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: and he went back inside and retrieved a second one 642 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: to finish the job. The victim didn't die right away, 643 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: he was wounded, and the forensic evidence will show that. 644 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 1: And this guy went back and got a second gun 645 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: and that was the one used in the gun battle. 646 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: And that is what we call clear premeditation. Premeditation under 647 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: the law is when you intend the act and intent 648 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,479 Speaker 1: or malice can be formed in the twinkling of an eye. 649 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: And that means in the time it takes you to 650 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: point the gun and pull the trigger, that is time 651 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: for premeditation. Under our law across this country, to form 652 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: premeditation or malice, murder or murder, one does not require 653 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: a long plan such as poisoning someone over a period 654 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: of time, or a murder for higher where it's intricately planned. 655 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,959 Speaker 1: No premeditation can be formed in an instant. And this guy, 656 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: based on what Karen Smith is telling us, along with 657 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: John Limley, not only unloaded on the victim, but then 658 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 1: went inside, got another gun and came out and then 659 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: finished killing him. He wasn't dead to start with him, 660 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 1: Alan Duke joining me from l A, isn't it true? Alan? Uh? 661 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: This is something you and I both noticed. This guy 662 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: had a gun collection and a stockpile of ammunition, a stockpile. 663 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: And if he did have any mental issue other than 664 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: claiming he had a girlfriend, imaginary girlfriend, If he did, 665 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: why was he why did he have an arsenal? Alan? 666 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: Do you can somebody tell me that you know I've 667 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: I'd love to have an arsenal of guns. I love guns, 668 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: but I don't have them because there's no reason for 669 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: me to have them. I was in the military I 670 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: used them then. But I'm just perfectly fine with going 671 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,959 Speaker 1: to a shooting range sometime in borrowing somebody else's gun. 672 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: But there are people who love guns. They think that 673 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: they are their girlfriend, an imaginary girlfriend is there. Maybe 674 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: they're a R fifteen. That might have been what this 675 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: guy was doing. Okay, Alan, I actually wish she hadn't 676 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: said that, because now I'm never gonna look at you 677 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: in the same way again when you refer to guns 678 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: as girlfriends. That's a little not me. Yeah, you said it, Alan, 679 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: You some people love their guns like they're their girlfriends. 680 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: They I don't know. Maybe maybe Dr Tiffany can tell 681 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,919 Speaker 1: us to do people get sexual satisfaction out of holding 682 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,959 Speaker 1: a gun? Okay, you know what you're scared because other 683 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: than now, other than the ponytail, I thought you were 684 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: fairly normal. Now, Okay, Dr Tiffany, go ahead and answer him, 685 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 1: because I'm not touching them with a ten foot pole. Well, 686 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's about what they find is a 687 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: priority in their life, and so they can treat it 688 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: like it's you know, high ranking member, like a wife, 689 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: a husband, a girlfriend. Most people don't sexualize objects. For 690 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: someone to sexualize an object, we have to their sanity, 691 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: their mental their mental health. But I do find uh, 692 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: like in the Vega shooter that the way that that person, 693 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: you know it, loves and and respects it, and they 694 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: revere their guns and their bullets, that's something to be questioned. 695 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: And why would you do that, Like, like I was said, 696 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: unless you're in the military, why are we idolizing that? 697 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: And for someone who's never been a military, who's only 698 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: thirty years old, and you have an arsenal of weapons, 699 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: that's something to question their mental health with. Well another issue, uh, 700 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: Karen Smith forensics experts letting me along with John Limley, 701 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. First to you, Karen, he did 702 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: not live alone, So how did his family allow him, 703 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 1: if he did have a mental issue, to have an 704 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: arsenal of guns and ammunition? Why? Well, from past experience, 705 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: there's gonna be some denial. We didn't know he was 706 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: stockpiling guns. We didn't know he had all the dimunition. 707 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,439 Speaker 1: We don't go into his bedroom. That's his sanctuary. That's 708 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 1: where he does his thing. Uh, that's the story I've 709 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: heard over and over and over again. It makes me sick. 710 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: You have a responsibility. This man has a history of 711 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: mental illness. The family, if he's living there, has a 712 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,919 Speaker 1: responsibility to make sure that he's safe and the neighborhood 713 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: is safe. Um. I don't understand how anyone could really 714 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: have a stockpile quote unquote of ammunition and guns and 715 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: other people in the household not know about it. I 716 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: don't neither. So okay, here's another issue, Jackie. Here in 717 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: the studio with me, John Limley, maybe you can answer 718 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: this one. Jackie wants to know how did this guy 719 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: pass a background check if he had any mental illness, 720 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,760 Speaker 1: which I'm not convinced of, because a lot of guys 721 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: pretend they have a girlfriend. You know, the old trick. 722 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: John Limley is showing the picture of the girl that 723 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: comes with the wallet and pretending that she that's actually 724 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 1: a photo she gave you, absolutely even though she looks 725 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,439 Speaker 1: like fair a faucet or yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 726 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: How you're dating yourself, by the way, but go ahead, 727 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: go ahead. So how did he pass background checks to 728 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: get guns? Well, this is still trying to be figured 729 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: out here. The suspect did have a history of mental illness, 730 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,720 Speaker 1: and uh, we're we're very anxious to know exactly how 731 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: he was able to take go through the individual steps. 732 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: We do know that once this gun battle took place 733 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: near the elementary school, the suspect ran back to his 734 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: mother's home, and it's there that the police set up 735 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: a perimeter around the home before the suspect was killed. Now, 736 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: it's not yet clear exactly how he died now, whether 737 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: by police gunfire or a self inflicted injury of Sheriff's 738 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: robot reportedly found to Sario's body in the home before 739 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: the sheriff sheriff crew actually went into the house. Tell 740 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: me about that, Karen Smith, forensics expert. Karen, how do 741 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: you process a scene like this? And I guess they 742 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: sent the robot in? How does that work? So George jetson? 743 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: But how does that work? Um? To send a robot 744 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: into a scene? Let me just hold on. I guess 745 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: you saw him alone? Three right? I mean, who hasn't 746 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: where there is the little car and it's got the 747 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,240 Speaker 1: camera on toughnes See. This is how I would explain 748 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: it to a jury. What somebody like Karen explained it 749 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: to me. You put a camera on top and you 750 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: send the robot car in to look around. I'm guessing 751 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: that's how it worked. But they sent a robot in first. 752 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,839 Speaker 1: How do you, Karen Smith, you're the forensics expert, how 753 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: do you go about processing a scene like this and 754 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: figuring out what went down? Well, it's gonna be a 755 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: meticulous and the robot. Yeah, it has a camera affixed 756 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: to it and they use it for disarming bombs. They 757 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: can use it for surveillance like they did here, to 758 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 1: find out if the suspect is still hold up and armed, 759 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,279 Speaker 1: or if he's deceased or injured. UM. But what they're 760 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 1: gonna do is they're going to have to number and 761 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: label all those shell casings out on the roadway, everything 762 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,240 Speaker 1: in the garage. Deal with the victim at this point, 763 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: and once they get inside, which is going to be 764 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 1: one of the last things they do, they're going to 765 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: find out if there's gun shot. It's called stipling, which 766 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: would be indicative of a suicide gun shot. That's the 767 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: gunpowder that this charges out of the gun. Um, if 768 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: it's a self inflicted wound, that will be present. If 769 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: it's a shot that came siling, different from just a 770 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 1: gun shot residue. It's actually you've got the gun so 771 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: close to your skin. It's the contact wound and it 772 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,359 Speaker 1: actually kind of burns the skin a little bit right right, 773 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: You can either have the powder burns, depending on how 774 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: far away the muzzle was. Um that'll be present if 775 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: it's a self inflicted wound. If it's not and it 776 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: was a shot from outside, they'll be able to tell 777 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: that as well. So that's what we know right now 778 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 1: in the scene is still being processed, and I'm sure 779 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 1: the family of the victim is just beside themselves because 780 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: he did absolutely nothing wrong. David Armstrong suddenly accused uh 781 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:48,760 Speaker 1: flirting with Brian de Sarrio's imaginary girlfriend is now dead, 782 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 1: and while we're talking about it, they're planning a funeral. 783 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: It's just almost too much to take in. You've got 784 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: the mother who loses her longtime boyfriend, David Armstrong and 785 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: now her son, and we're talking about him as all 786 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: of his problems and his imaginary girlfriend. But you know what, 787 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 1: your son is your son, and you love them without question, 788 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 1: no matter what, warts and all, And it's just devastation 789 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: So there are a lot of questions to be answered, 790 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: and I can't think of anyone better than Dr Tiffany, 791 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,319 Speaker 1: Karen Smith, John Lemley and the Duke to try to 792 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: figure it out with me. So just a little pause 793 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,360 Speaker 1: as we go about our business right now, there is 794 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 1: a family herding because of this scenario. Nancy Grace, Crime 795 00:48:52,960 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: Story signing off. Goodbye friend. Do you find yourself obsessing 796 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 1: over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a group 797 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 1: of people just like you to talk motives and alibis with. 798 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: If so, join the crime Con Cold Case Club and 799 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover 800 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt. 801 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of 802 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,439 Speaker 1: nursing student Maura Murray in two thousand four, and it's 803 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: free to join thanks to Oxygen. Sign up now or 804 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,280 Speaker 1: find more info at Club dot crime Con dot com. 805 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: That's club dot crime Con dot com.