Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. If I were to share with
Speaker 1: you the greatest show business comeback story in history, you
Speaker 1: might not believe it, but it's all true. My guest
Speaker 1: today was the very first black woman to be crowned
Speaker 1: Miss America, only to resign following the release of unauthorized
Speaker 1: nude photos. In the years after the scandal, she reinvented herself,
Speaker 1: building an impressive and decorated career. She released chart topping music,
Speaker 1: performed on Broadway, and starred in television and film. It
Speaker 1: could only be Vanessa Williams. Her work has earned her
Speaker 1: three Emmy nominations, eleven Grammy nominations, and a Tony nomination.
Speaker 1: She's the recipient of a Billboard Music Award and multiple
Speaker 1: NAACP Image Awards. I wanted to know how her upbringing
Speaker 1: in New York affected her trajectory and her goals.
Speaker 2: I was born in Tarrytown. I grew up in one
Speaker 2: year in the Bronx and then up here in Westchester
Speaker 2: in Millwood, which is about five miles from where I
Speaker 2: live right now.
Speaker 1: And your parents were both taught art. They were art teachers,
Speaker 1: music teachers music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my dad was band teacher in Elmsford and my
Speaker 2: mom was the choral teacher in Austining at Claremont School.
Speaker 2: So my dad was forty two years my mom was
Speaker 2: thirty eight years.
Speaker 1: There, how many siblings.
Speaker 2: You have one younger brother who is an actor as well.
Speaker 2: He's out in LA he's four years younger.
Speaker 1: Just one you and the brothers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: And both of you went into the arts.
Speaker 2: Yes, my brother he's done like Dodgeball, he's done Larry
Speaker 2: David's HERBYR Enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: Historical dramas. He's done historical dramas. Yeah, yes, Dodgeball, that's history.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, at it for a while. He's been
Speaker 2: at it for a while. Yes.
Speaker 1: Now, why the East Coast for you?
Speaker 2: I did live in the West Coast from eighty five to.
Speaker 1: Ninety two because you were working.
Speaker 2: I was working. I kind of left after having a
Speaker 2: struggling here in New York, you know, after being Miss
Speaker 2: America and then the scandal and then trying to you know,
Speaker 2: make my way on Broadway. And I tell a story
Speaker 2: in my book which is called You Have No Idea,
Speaker 2: which basically is a chronicle of my recollection and my
Speaker 2: mom's kind of side by side. In the book, I
Speaker 2: talk about one particular instance where Mike Nichols was directing
Speaker 2: Tommy Toon and Twiggy in My One and Only on Broadway,
Speaker 2: and Mike Nichols reached out to me. He said he
Speaker 2: wanted me to replace Twiggy because he knew that I
Speaker 2: was a musical theater gal and met him, had a
Speaker 2: wonderful meeting. Did the audition, Tommy taught me all the
Speaker 2: tap did the audition went well, perfectly, left the theater,
Speaker 2: and Mike turned around to Lee Gershwin, who was the
Speaker 2: head of the estate in Irish Widow, and said, wasn't
Speaker 2: she terrific? Thumbs up, and then he walked back downstage
Speaker 2: and the phone was ringing by the time he got
Speaker 2: to the bottom of the stage, and it was Lee
Speaker 2: Gershwin who said to Mike Nichols, over my dead body,
Speaker 2: will that horror be in my show? And that was
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 1: The year after the incident.
Speaker 2: Yeah, eighty four eighty five. They wanted me to go
Speaker 2: in right after. So I didn't know exactly what she
Speaker 2: had said. I knew that I didn't get it, but
Speaker 2: I knew that I crushed the audition, and Paul Martino
Speaker 2: was my agent at the time at ICM, so it
Speaker 2: was kind of a soft not this time. But I
Speaker 2: could feel like, Okay, this has nothing to do with talent.
Speaker 2: This is way bigger and it's going to be much
Speaker 2: harder than I anticipated.
Speaker 1: Well, now that you've pivoted in direction, we were going
Speaker 1: to get there. But no, no, no, no, no talking
Speaker 1: about your Bucolic Westchester upbringing, and instead we're having Gershwin's
Speaker 1: relatives calling you a whore.
Speaker 2: Exactly stop there, now, hold on.
Speaker 1: Let me catch up. But now that you bring it up,
Speaker 1: on want to say you are someone who I'm a
Speaker 1: great admirer of yours, and I want to back it
Speaker 1: up a little bit, which is when you become Miss America.
Speaker 1: So it's a national competition. I remember, these are a
Speaker 1: Miss Universe contestants, where I always felt that the people
Speaker 1: in these some of these foreign countries, because their countries
Speaker 1: are so maybe economically know less advantage than America. You'd
Speaker 1: see some of these women winning these awards in these
Speaker 1: international competitions and you think they're going to choke to
Speaker 1: death how much they're crying. They're like Oh my god,
Speaker 1: they can't believe they've won. It's this big deal to them.
Speaker 1: What was the roots of you becoming Miss America? Was
Speaker 1: it a goal for you? What did you think it represented?
Speaker 1: How did that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, you talk about Bucolic roots, and the Miss America
Speaker 2: pageant itself was a bathing suit pageant on the board
Speaker 2: walk in Atlantic City back in the day, so and
Speaker 2: it was still run by volunteers in Atlantic City yearly.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't this huge, huge corporation and corporate thing.
Speaker 2: And I only learned that once I ended up winning.
Speaker 2: The roots of it was. I was a Syracuse musical
Speaker 2: theater major. Aaron Sorkin was one of my classmates, by
Speaker 2: the way, and my freshman year's your core year. You
Speaker 2: can't do anything. So sophomore year I started performing. So
Speaker 2: I was in the Golden Apple, I did Frank Lesser's
Speaker 2: was Swinging on a Star. I was down at Syracuse
Speaker 2: Stage was a repertory theater and they were doing a
Speaker 2: production of a Syirran de Bergerac which I auditioned for
Speaker 2: and I got the part of the Orange Girl, which
Speaker 2: was a tiny little part, but it would have gotten
Speaker 2: me equity points. So I was supposed to do that
Speaker 2: after doing all these productions my sophomore year, and the
Speaker 2: local Miss Syracuse pageant kind of scouts their talent at
Speaker 2: the university. So a couple of board members had seen
Speaker 2: me in shows and one of my friends a board member,
Speaker 2: would you be interested in being in the Syracuse pageant?
Speaker 2: I said, no, absolutely not. I don't do it. Syrah
Speaker 2: No got canceled. I had April free. I called my
Speaker 2: mom and said, listen, do you think I should do
Speaker 2: this Syracuse pageant? Thing? Is their money? I said yes,
Speaker 2: because I'd gotten scholarships the previous two years, and she said,
Speaker 2: would go for it. So my parents didn't even come
Speaker 2: to the pageant. I bought a bathing suit down at
Speaker 2: Sibley's department store in downtown Syracuse.
Speaker 1: My cousin worked at Sibley's.
Speaker 3: You're kidding.
Speaker 2: My mom is from Syracuse, Okay, so that's where I
Speaker 2: got my stuff, and I sang a song from my
Speaker 2: performance class. My friend Tim Thayer played piano for me.
Speaker 2: I did being Good Isn't Good Enough from Hallelujah Baby
Speaker 2: that I'd performed in class, and I ended up winning
Speaker 2: swimsuit Talent and I won Miss Greater Syracuse. So that
Speaker 2: was April of my sophomore year. Then I was on
Speaker 2: the way to States in July three months later, and
Speaker 2: you know, I'm twenty years old and I sing the
Speaker 2: same song where the same close and win that same
Speaker 2: Tim's playing for me, the same deal and I win that.
Speaker 2: So within three months, I'm already headed to Atlantic City
Speaker 2: and the local pageant gal wants to change my song
Speaker 2: to something more familiar, so I sang happy Days Are
Speaker 2: Here again, the Barbie streis End version, got an upgrade
Speaker 2: on my gown and swimsuit, and I ended up winning
Speaker 2: all within six months. So I literally had no intention
Speaker 2: of ever being Miss America, being in the pageant, and
Speaker 2: here I was getting ready for my junior year abroad
Speaker 2: in London, already put my down deposit, my girlfriend was,
Speaker 2: my roommate was already waiting for me, and I ended
Speaker 2: up winning. So my first question when I won was
Speaker 2: now what do I do? And ah now and go
Speaker 2: to London.
Speaker 1: So if you're a super bright and talented woman and
Speaker 1: you end up in that universe, not that there's anything
Speaker 1: wrong with it, but you would like you said, what
Speaker 1: do I do now? How soon after you were crowned.
Speaker 1: Did the scandal.
Speaker 2: Come, Well, it didn't come until I had been missing
Speaker 2: America for ten months. I had literally two weeks vacation
Speaker 2: and a month left. So but I think the biggest,
Speaker 2: biggest jolt for me being a New Yorker at twenty
Speaker 2: years old, living in Westchester, growing up in Westchester, you know,
Speaker 2: being surrounded by different cultures and my parents living through
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, making a better life. For me,
Speaker 2: that was the first time I really experienced racism on
Speaker 2: a national level. And I guess, you know, being.
Speaker 1: In this, I want it because of the scandal or.
Speaker 2: Both because I won. Because I won, This is no
Speaker 2: scandal at all. This is just me being black at
Speaker 2: twenty years old. September of nineteen eighty three, death threats.
Speaker 2: When I had my welcome home parade here, they had
Speaker 2: to have sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings because of
Speaker 2: their threats like that. And again I was so, I
Speaker 2: guess naive because I assumed that nineteen eighty three were
Speaker 2: past all that stuff, and we lived in a world
Speaker 2: at this moment assume. So that was a big slap
Speaker 2: in the face and a big maturity kick in the pants.
Speaker 1: For me, Where was any moment, I mean maybe I'm naive,
Speaker 1: but where was any moment of someone coming up to
Speaker 1: you and saying, here's the negatives, here's the pictures you
Speaker 1: can have. Just give me tickets to every show you're
Speaker 1: in for the rest of your life. You know what
Speaker 1: I mean? That type of thing.
Speaker 2: Never one gesture, not even one gesture. It was all
Speaker 2: a betrayal. I mean I never pretended that I was perfect.
Speaker 2: I certainly I was a first Miss America that was
Speaker 2: pro era, pro choice. So I was ruffling feathers from
Speaker 2: the get go.
Speaker 1: You mean you weren't a virgin when you were Miss America?
Speaker 2: Exact Good God, I listened. So I think the betrayal
Speaker 2: is what hurt me the most because again, growing up
Speaker 2: in this small little town and a quick brief history
Speaker 2: of how these pictures ever became. I used to have
Speaker 2: the Pennysaber magazine, which we would look for summer jobs
Speaker 2: in the summer. And one summer there was a modeling
Speaker 2: registry in town, and not an agency that should have
Speaker 2: been the first clue, but a registry. And I said, well,
Speaker 2: let me go in and see whether I can be
Speaker 2: a model of the summer and he said, well, it's
Speaker 2: going to cost this amount of money for the picture's portfolio,
Speaker 2: but I need a makeup artist, So if you want
Speaker 2: to be a receptionist and a makeup artist for the shoots.
Speaker 2: So that's what my summer job was. And ended up
Speaker 2: getting convinced later on leter in the summer, you know what,
Speaker 2: I've got an idea. I'd love to shoot you. Nobody
Speaker 2: will see them, They'll be in silhouette, blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: all that horseshit. Then after I win, apparently he started
Speaker 2: shopping and I never saw fin a release for any
Speaker 2: of these photos. So he started shopping them around, apparently
Speaker 2: tried to reach out to my mother, which she doesn't remember.
Speaker 2: Then he started shopping them around and he went to
Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner first, and Hugh said do you have a release?
Speaker 2: And he said no, and he said, well, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to do that to this woman.
Speaker 1: How decent of you you.
Speaker 2: And then he goes to Guccioni and Gucci was like,
Speaker 2: hell yeah, bring him. So yeah, So that was so
Speaker 2: the biggest shock was I went to Crown the Miss
Speaker 2: New York in Watertown, New York Friday, the thirteenth of July,
Speaker 2: and the New York Post called about Geraldine Ferrara and
Speaker 2: wanted to know what I felt about her being the
Speaker 2: first woman on the ticket great women power. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, by the way, I heard from
Speaker 2: a reliable source that you're going to be on the
Speaker 2: cover of Pentause magazine in September. And I was truly shocked.
Speaker 2: I said, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: He said, well, it's a really reliable source. I said,
Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. He said, okay,
Speaker 2: then I want printed up with the phone call my
Speaker 2: parents and I was like, I don't know what's going on,
Speaker 2: but I need some help. And one of our family
Speaker 2: friends became my lawyer, and then it all all the
Speaker 2: shit hit the fan, and then I was given like
Speaker 2: a two week decision whether they were going to take
Speaker 2: the crown away or whether I wanted to resign. And
Speaker 2: I had a whole continuency of people that wanted me
Speaker 2: to fight for the crown. So when I the day
Speaker 2: of my press conference, there were people saying fight for it,
Speaker 2: fight with with I mean, it was it was insane.
Speaker 1: And why didn't you because I just.
Speaker 2: Wanted to get you know, move on, move on.
Speaker 1: I mean this really upsets me because we all had
Speaker 1: our times in the dunk tank here. How long did
Speaker 1: the downtime last before you start to crawl out of
Speaker 1: this and the wreckage of this and start to work again.
Speaker 1: And who's calling you, who's reaching out to who's the
Speaker 1: first person to say, come make a movie with me
Speaker 1: or do a show with me.
Speaker 2: Well, it took me ten years to get on Broadway.
Speaker 2: So if the scandal hit in eighty four, in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety fours when I got a chance to be in
Speaker 2: Case of the Spider Woman on Broadway, so that was
Speaker 2: a good ten year with just then that was Cheeta
Speaker 2: Rivera and I stepped in after her one year run
Speaker 2: and she went on the road and I took over.
Speaker 2: So that was glorious for me to finally say, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is what I meant to be and this is
Speaker 2: where I am. And my parents were just elated to
Speaker 2: see me, you know, have my dream come true. But
Speaker 2: prior to that, which is interesting, I'd gotten a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of inquiries for like crap or they
Speaker 2: wanted to meet me just to say they could meet me.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of auditions that I went. I
Speaker 2: was like, they're really not going to cast me. They
Speaker 2: just want to say, oh, guess who we got in
Speaker 2: the room today. I think the first thing I did
Speaker 2: was a Partners in Crime which was which was with
Speaker 2: Lonnie Anderson and Linda Carter and we shot it in
Speaker 2: San Francisco and I was Roselle Robbins, who is a singer,
Speaker 2: and I got a chance to record a couple songs
Speaker 2: and do a number and stuff. So you know, they
Speaker 2: were there were opportunities to kind of, you know, jump
Speaker 2: on all the publicity that happening.
Speaker 1: In eighty four to ninety four? What did you do?
Speaker 2: I did television. I did One Man Ban was an
Speaker 2: off Broadway show Willa Shalatte. Jean Shallette's daughter was one
Speaker 2: of the producers, and she and James Lucine was the
Speaker 2: One Man Ban and they believed in me and said
Speaker 2: we'll give you a shot. So that was off Broadway
Speaker 2: and from there I went to la because it was
Speaker 2: just I want to do theater and the doors were closed,
Speaker 2: so you know, I was on TJ. Hooker. I did
Speaker 2: the Love Boat, you know.
Speaker 1: You name it all My bread and Butter here exactly.
Speaker 1: Know what's funny. In the brief time we've talked, you
Speaker 1: remind me of Pacino. When I interviewed Pacino, I interviewed
Speaker 1: him for school. In order to go back to ny
Speaker 1: You and graduate, I had to do a term paper
Speaker 1: about the applicability of method acting training to an actor
Speaker 1: who still had a real career in film, TV and theater.
Speaker 1: So I interview al for like eight or nine hours
Speaker 1: at his house up in Westchester, and every time I
Speaker 1: would talked about movies, he changed the subject. All you
Speaker 1: want to talk was theater. Oh you want to talk
Speaker 1: about his theater? Interesting? So you shit, you pivot to
Speaker 1: theater all the time. That's where your heart is.
Speaker 2: Well, that's where my training was, and that was my goal,
Speaker 2: you know, growing up. But believe me, my recording has
Speaker 2: kind of backdoored me into theater. And again being a
Speaker 2: recording artist, I mean, nobody wanted to sign me, and
Speaker 2: then when I got signed, you know, they would say, well,
Speaker 2: the competition is really over here. So my whole career
Speaker 2: is like, oh, I didn't know she could do that.
Speaker 2: I didn't know she could do that? Right, And my
Speaker 2: biggest hit, say the Best for a Last which was
Speaker 2: number one on the charts for five weeks straight. Was
Speaker 2: a song that Bett Middler and Barbara Streis and both
Speaker 2: turned down there people, and I got it, and I said,
Speaker 2: I'll take it. I don't know what it's not sloppy seconds,
Speaker 2: I don't know what what thirds are, but I'll take
Speaker 2: it because I knew that there was something there that
Speaker 2: I can you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Our careers are built them the guy that passed on
Speaker 1: the I can tell you the names of people that
Speaker 1: passed on Hunt for Red October. But it's interesting to me. How,
Speaker 1: by the way, do you teach you ever teach?
Speaker 2: I teach you NYU, but I teach in their and
Speaker 2: their vocal performance, songwriting.
Speaker 1: Yes, perfect, perfect perfect.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, when I would teach, I'd say to people, do anything,
Speaker 1: do everything, don't be cute about it, don't be precious
Speaker 1: about what you do. I was doing a soap opera
Speaker 1: in New York and I would walk over to this,
Speaker 1: you know, back in the Pleistocene era when we had
Speaker 1: no Internet, and I would go over to the NYU
Speaker 1: Film School to the casting board. It was a corkboard
Speaker 1: with things pinned up there and would say, wanted actor
Speaker 1: twenty to twenty five to play a bartender in this thing.
Speaker 1: We're going to shoot Saturday and Sunday on the weekend.
Speaker 1: This bar is closed and I was doing this soap opera.
Speaker 1: I think it was kind of spotty in the beginning
Speaker 1: of it. So I go on the weekends, I'm my
Speaker 1: week to go do this movie and it's, you know,
Speaker 1: this horrible independent film. But my point I say to
Speaker 1: people is don't turn your nose upon anything when you're
Speaker 1: first starting.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it makes you never know what skill set you'll
Speaker 2: need to tap into on you know, when you get
Speaker 2: a gig, you know, and meeting fascinating people and learning,
Speaker 2: That's what I tell Never stop asking questions, never stop
Speaker 2: learning and being curious, because that's exciting, but makes you
Speaker 2: more exciting. It makes you life way more satisfying when
Speaker 2: you know you haven't you know, you're at a dinner
Speaker 2: party and you're talking to somebody that you never thought
Speaker 2: you'd be able to talk to. And that's the great
Speaker 2: thing about our profession. I've been lucky as Miss America.
Speaker 2: I've met seven presidents in my lifetime already, and those
Speaker 2: opportunities of going to the White House and dinner and
Speaker 2: sitting in the receiving line when it was Reagan. Actually
Speaker 2: that was the first big deal. When I was crowned,
Speaker 2: Reagan called me and said it was a great thing
Speaker 2: for our country. So that was like the first huge
Speaker 2: moment of my reign as Miss America. But I remember
Speaker 2: going to the White House dinner October eighteenth, nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 2: and in the lineup was Ginger Rogers, Halston, Martha Graham
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, these are legends
Speaker 2: and they were just you know. I sat next to
Speaker 2: Sonny Jorgensen, the football player Jurgensen, Yes, yes, he was
Speaker 2: at my table. My mother's like, get the president's autograph
Speaker 2: on the menu, like a mom, and I did I have.
Speaker 1: She's there. That's why your mom's there, to remind you
Speaker 1: of those things you've forgotten.
Speaker 3: Exactly, Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1: If you enjoy conversations with talented Broadway artists, check out
Speaker 1: my episode with Audra McDonald's.
Speaker 4: No one thought that I could find her voice. What's
Speaker 4: a soprano trying to be Billie Holiday. The show opens
Speaker 4: and the first thing I do is sing, and you
Speaker 4: can tell that the audience is waiting to hear. Is
Speaker 4: she going to get it? And I would open my
Speaker 4: mouth and sing the first All I know is I'm
Speaker 4: in love with you. Sometimes I'd hear the audience gasp,
Speaker 4: and that's when I'd be like, okay.
Speaker 3: Aher.
Speaker 2: Is zamin low.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Aldra McDonald, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Vanessa
Speaker 1: Williams shares how Stephen Sondheim's work taught her an important
Speaker 1: lesson about the type of art she wants to make.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing.
Speaker 1: With her musical theater training, singing comes second nature to
Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams. She's released eight albums as a recording artist.
Speaker 1: Her track Colors of the Wind plays over the closing
Speaker 1: credits of the Oscar winning soundtrack to Pocahontas, and this
Speaker 1: is Williams with the number one single Saved the Best
Speaker 1: for Last from her album The Comfort Zone.
Speaker 5: But that was sad Fish, just when a thought.
Speaker 1: Sandcast you.
Speaker 5: The best flat.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know how she got her start in
Speaker 1: the recording industry.
Speaker 2: Well, it was at Eckstein, who is Billy Eckstein's son.
Speaker 2: He got a new deal and a new label part
Speaker 2: of the PolyGram company back in the day. So he
Speaker 2: was the one that believed in me because a lot
Speaker 2: of people sounded thought that I sounded too Broadway or
Speaker 2: just thought that it would be like a one hit wonder.
Speaker 2: But he legitimately knew that I could have a singing career,
Speaker 2: and he was really instrumental in getting you know, back then,
Speaker 2: we had an r artists and repertoire, so you know,
Speaker 2: great and curating songs, working with hungry young producers that
Speaker 2: were eager to have their songs written and performed. And
Speaker 2: so I really have to him and my ex husband,
Speaker 2: who ended up he was my publicist when I was
Speaker 2: resigned as Miss America. He then started to manage me
Speaker 2: because I asked him because he was the only person
Speaker 2: that I really trust that knew my talent but also
Speaker 2: knew about me as my character and obviously loved me.
Speaker 2: So it was the two of them that said, you know,
Speaker 2: let's do this, Let's make her a legitimate recording artist.
Speaker 2: And I had a great run on PolyGram and then
Speaker 2: I've been I'm actually about to release It's been fifteen
Speaker 2: years since my last album, but I'm releasing new music
Speaker 2: in April, so back in the studio, dancing again, making
Speaker 2: videos and making me feel young again. And actually the
Speaker 2: song is called Legs, which is about which was inspired
Speaker 2: by Diane Carroll wrote her book called The Legs of
Speaker 2: the Last to Go. And I remember watching our Oprah
Speaker 2: and she was talking about everything kind of decays and
Speaker 2: falls and SAgs. But damn it, those legs are strong.
Speaker 2: They're still holding me up. And there's still I can
Speaker 2: still show them off in a mini skirt, and there's
Speaker 2: still the last thing that I'm holding.
Speaker 1: Onto that she had great legs. Yep, who played my
Speaker 1: mother on thirty Rock Jesus Christ, look at her now.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this also, which is that you've
Speaker 1: been married three times. But when you're someone who can
Speaker 1: certainly take care of themselves and you're a tough woman,
Speaker 1: you're smart, you're beautiful, you're talented, and you're tough, and
Speaker 1: when you get married, why do you get married? Why?
Speaker 2: Because I'm a romantic, I don't know. I do and
Speaker 2: I think that I see the best and what I
Speaker 2: can be and what we can be, and then I
Speaker 2: get disappointed on the future that I thought it was
Speaker 2: going to be and didn't turn out for it to
Speaker 2: be as.
Speaker 1: My friend says, he goes, and then we turn the
Speaker 1: lights on everything as it really is. Yes, Yes, it's
Speaker 1: always like like when we get married, why did we
Speaker 1: get married?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 1: Well, I think the marriage question is always for someone
Speaker 1: who's as self sufficient as you, and I would imagine
Speaker 1: me like you know, do I have needs emotionally? I
Speaker 1: always think about it in this business because marriage is
Speaker 1: so tough in this business. What was it like for
Speaker 1: you as a mom?
Speaker 2: Oh, I brought my kids everywhere, so I've got I've
Speaker 2: got four kids. So I had my first three with
Speaker 2: my first husband and then my last one with my
Speaker 2: second husband. But I mean I got married so the scandal.
Speaker 2: I was twenty as when I won Miss America twenty
Speaker 2: one when the scandal hit. Ended up getting married at
Speaker 2: twenty three, and partly not only because we were a unit,
Speaker 2: my ex and I trying to build our life and
Speaker 2: career together. But I that's what I could control. I
Speaker 2: could control my family. I couldn't control my career. I
Speaker 2: couldn't depend on people, something you can rely on exactly.
Speaker 1: So what kind of work did he do?
Speaker 2: He was a public He used to he was worked
Speaker 2: at Rogers and Cowan back in the day.
Speaker 1: I remember I was with Rogerson Cowan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the first black senior
Speaker 2: vice president back in the day that he was thirteen
Speaker 2: years older than me. So my kids are very cringey
Speaker 2: now they're like, oh, mom, how could you twenty one?
Speaker 2: He was in his thirties.
Speaker 1: No, my son said the other day, he walks up
Speaker 1: to me. I'm in bed, I'm just barely waking up.
Speaker 1: My son wrote Maleo books, and he goes, Dad, are
Speaker 1: you going to die? And I go, no, No, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to die. I mean you have to lie
Speaker 1: to them. And I go no, I'm not going to die.
Speaker 1: He goes, but you're going to be like eighty five
Speaker 1: and then you're going to die. I go, no, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to die. I don't even think about that.
Speaker 1: Then is a pause. He goes, could you give mom
Speaker 1: your Apple pass code? Can I give mom my Apple pass?
Speaker 1: How old does the arrange your kids? Now? They're how old?
Speaker 2: So Melanie is thirty six, Jillian is thirty four, Devin
Speaker 2: my son is thirty, and then Sasha is twenty three.
Speaker 1: And we're three older ones. Are they in the biz?
Speaker 2: So my oldest works in Westchester in the city's lot
Speaker 2: his instructor. My middle is a singer and she gave
Speaker 2: me a beautiful grandchild who I who's two years old.
Speaker 2: And so she has her own career and her name
Speaker 2: of her band is called Lion Babe. And my son
Speaker 2: works out in LA he's in the fashion industry. And
Speaker 2: then my youngest is writing music and she's got four
Speaker 2: singles out on Apple and Spotify and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: So two in the business and two not. But they're
Speaker 2: all I'm really proud of them. And they're doing what
Speaker 2: they love and doing what they're good at and and
Speaker 2: I love having them home. That's the best.
Speaker 1: And are you finally after three trips to the plate here?
Speaker 1: Are you finally done with this romantic thing of yours?
Speaker 1: You are? I think?
Speaker 2: I think I am done.
Speaker 1: Boyfriends are good. Boyfriends are good.
Speaker 2: Boyfriends are good, And I'm fine being by myself. I
Speaker 2: travel so much. I have so many opportunities. I you know,
Speaker 2: I would love is fun and exciting. Sex is great,
Speaker 2: haven't had in years, but waiting for that to happen again.
Speaker 2: But I you know, I don't have people throwing themselves
Speaker 2: at me, propositioning me. It's not as it's not as
Speaker 2: easy as you would think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but let me just say this also, which is
Speaker 1: that with someone with your theater background and your great
Speaker 1: success in the theater, have you ever thought about doing
Speaker 1: a one woman show?
Speaker 2: I have thought about it.
Speaker 1: Take credit for it. It's a great idea.
Speaker 2: Are you going to come on as producer?
Speaker 1: No kidding? You should. When Springsteen did that show and
Speaker 1: you realize that the music is obviously there and what
Speaker 1: people were waiting for what was he going to say
Speaker 1: about his life and himself? And people would have died.
Speaker 1: I mean, they love that Springsteen show. But for you
Speaker 1: to be you and to combine those things, you singing
Speaker 1: and you performing and then telling stories about all the
Speaker 1: stuff you went through and where you want to know,
Speaker 1: that would be a hit show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to. James Lepine asked me to do
Speaker 2: Sonjam and Sonham in twenty ten, and that was the
Speaker 2: format that it was mixed media. It was all interviews
Speaker 2: of Sondheim and then you know, with us singing. And
Speaker 2: one of the strongest moments in that show was when
Speaker 2: they cut to Sondheim and he's talking about a telegram
Speaker 2: was brought to his home and he opened it and
Speaker 2: it was a letter from his mother saying, I'm about
Speaker 2: to go into surgery for heart, my heart. I just
Speaker 2: want to say, the only regret in my life was
Speaker 2: giving birth to you. And you could hear and then
Speaker 2: and then he said, and then I knew that it
Speaker 2: wasn't about me. She couldn't give me love. It had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with me. It had to do with her.
Speaker 2: And then the stage starts to rotate, and we started saying,
Speaker 2: careful the things you're saying, children will listen. And then
Speaker 2: you hear the sobs of people just sniffling because you
Speaker 2: realize those words turned into his art. He gave us
Speaker 2: everything because of that, that relationship that he could never
Speaker 2: crack that nut. So those are the I mean I want.
Speaker 2: If I'm going to do a one woman show, I
Speaker 2: want that moment. I want to be able to have
Speaker 2: the audience in my hands so they can see my pain,
Speaker 2: you know, turned into art. They can see my triumph
Speaker 2: turned into art. So it's delicate, and it really is,
Speaker 2: you know, a specific task.
Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend
Speaker 1: and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio apps Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts. When
Speaker 1: we come back, Vanessa Williams shares with us the joy
Speaker 1: of working with Sir Elton John. I'm Alec Baldwin and
Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. Theater and music are
Speaker 1: not Vanessa williams only strengths. The Triple Threat has also
Speaker 1: been featured in over one hundred TV and film roles,
Speaker 1: highlighting her impressive range. I wanted her to share how
Speaker 1: she approached her different roles on Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 2: Well, Ugly Betty was one of those shows where we
Speaker 2: were going to be a Friday night kind of for
Speaker 2: chicks because they didn't really believe that we had what
Speaker 2: it took. And we did the TCAs the Television Critics
Speaker 2: Awards panel, and after we finish our panel in Pasadena, Yeah,
Speaker 2: in Pasadena, and they said Ugly Betty, they said, you
Speaker 2: guys are the hit of the season. You guys are
Speaker 2: the best thing that we've seen. So we knew that
Speaker 2: the critics liked us. And then when we finally when
Speaker 2: we got so much momentum, they turned they changed us
Speaker 2: to Thursday night, right before A Gray's Anatomy, and that
Speaker 2: kind of gave us. Yeah, that blew us up, and
Speaker 2: we won the Golden Globe that year. But we you know,
Speaker 2: it was like doing a feature film every episode because
Speaker 2: we had so much production value and costumes and runways
Speaker 2: and all kinds of fantastical stuff. It was long Friturdays,
Speaker 2: Fridays turning into Saturdays. But we loved it, and we
Speaker 2: loved each other, and we loved our script readings. As
Speaker 2: we never knew, especially I never knew what I was
Speaker 2: going to be doing the following week. What I'm pitching
Speaker 2: to Naomi Campbell and a softball game. What I'm taking
Speaker 2: a baseball bat and smashing, you know, Mannekins on the
Speaker 2: roof of some here. Oh, I'm having a Yes, this
Speaker 2: is ugly, Betty. So it was amazing. So then going
Speaker 2: by the time I got to Desperate Housewives, and the
Speaker 2: reason I got on Desperate Housewives is I was doing
Speaker 2: sondheim'd Sondheim and Mark Cherry is a huge Sondheim fan,
Speaker 2: so much so that every episode of Desperate Housewives is
Speaker 2: a Sondheim song. That's how big it is. It. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so so he saw me and Sondheim, Sanaima and Sondheim
Speaker 2: and then I got a call like a week later,
Speaker 2: would she like to join our cast? And Nicolette was
Speaker 2: already gone.
Speaker 1: They needed a cast edition, so you come and you
Speaker 1: shoot that. And I worshiped Felicity. I mean, I just
Speaker 1: love Felicity to death.
Speaker 2: Love her too.
Speaker 1: I did a movie with Terry Hatcher. She came in
Speaker 1: to play Eric Roberts's wife, and you found out she
Speaker 1: was the drug lord in the operation. I played a
Speaker 1: copp that was based on this famous book called Heavens
Speaker 1: Prisoners that Phil Juano directed, and she was the villainous
Speaker 1: and none of us thought that she would really be
Speaker 1: able to get there in terms of the extremes of
Speaker 1: intensity and ugliness. And she was good. She was damn good.
Speaker 1: She came in there and she was ready to hit
Speaker 1: and be hit and fight, and she was scrappy. And
Speaker 1: we did this movie, Heavens Prisoners, and Terry was damn
Speaker 1: good in that movie, and I wanted to do a
Speaker 1: project with Felicity. How different was that experience?
Speaker 2: You know? I came in and they called me Switzerland
Speaker 2: because I had no beef with anybody, so I was
Speaker 2: friendly with everybody. I had worked with Terry Hatcher previously
Speaker 2: because we used to do these radio shack commercials back
Speaker 2: in the day. So it was Terry and Howie Long
Speaker 2: and me and Ving Rams the black and the White couple,
Speaker 2: and we would do, you know, product commercials for the
Speaker 2: radio shack together. So that's I knew her from back
Speaker 2: in the day. But it was easy and talking about clockwork,
Speaker 2: absolute in and out. Craziest days. Mark would come and
Speaker 2: give us pretty much line readings across the board and
Speaker 2: then take off to the writer's room, so we all
Speaker 2: knew what was going on, even though their mar yes,
Speaker 2: very very hands on, you.
Speaker 1: Only do that? Are you recurring? A couple of years
Speaker 1: of recurring on that show?
Speaker 2: Was I was a regular for two seasons and then
Speaker 2: they were killed. I guess no, no, no, I got
Speaker 2: married and then the show got killed.
Speaker 1: You got married.
Speaker 2: I got one of the.
Speaker 1: What are you working on now?
Speaker 2: I Am about to go across the pond to do
Speaker 2: devilwares Prada on the West End.
Speaker 1: I've read that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Jerry Mitchell is directing and doing the choreography,
Speaker 2: and Elton John's writing the music and he wrote two
Speaker 2: songs for me already which is incredible, and it's all
Speaker 2: British cast over there and we're at the Dominion Theater.
Speaker 2: We open our.
Speaker 1: First player, Rand Priestley.
Speaker 2: Yes, I am yeah. October twenty fourth we start and
Speaker 2: I'll be there for at least for a year. We're
Speaker 2: doing our out of town in Plymouth, which I guess
Speaker 2: is the southwest portion of England. So we're out of
Speaker 2: town end of June through mid August.
Speaker 1: So this is they're workshopping this and working this is new.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to create this role? Yes?
Speaker 1: What is greater? What is more powerful and more? The
Speaker 1: thing you want in this business, the one thing you
Speaker 1: especially if you can sing like you and dance? You
Speaker 1: want to create a role in originated role? How lucky
Speaker 1: are you?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Did you flip that when they told you that?
Speaker 2: Well, I knew that. Jerry kind of gave me a
Speaker 2: heads up. They had done a production in Chicago a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago and it did not do well
Speaker 2: at all. Different cast, different director, and Kevin McCollum, the producer,
Speaker 2: called in Jerry and said, listen, I needed to see this.
Speaker 2: I needed to help me out. What do you think?
Speaker 2: And Jerry said, I will do it, but I want
Speaker 2: complete control whole new team, and I want to make
Speaker 2: sure that Elton will write me some new music. And
Speaker 2: Elton was doing the Yellowpic road tour at the time,
Speaker 2: so he was, you know, really really busy, but he
Speaker 2: promised and he did. So I had demos of Elton,
Speaker 2: you know, singing the new stuff, and then I got
Speaker 2: a chance to hear Jerry's vision. And then when we're
Speaker 2: in the room for two weeks, Elton was so happy.
Speaker 2: He said, I wanted to kill myself in Chicago. Now
Speaker 2: I'm really really happy, and just like, you know, just
Speaker 2: to give a little smidgeon of what it's going to
Speaker 2: look like. So Jerry said, in the other production there
Speaker 2: was no fashion, and it's about the world of fashion.
Speaker 2: So he's got all these built in runway production numbers
Speaker 2: happening and act too. When Miranda goes to Paris and
Speaker 2: they're trying to oust her, there's a song that she
Speaker 2: sings called stay on Top. And we haven't obviously, we
Speaker 2: haven't staged it yet, but he told me that what
Speaker 2: he's gonna do is he has got a passer oul
Speaker 2: in front of the stage and we will be sitting
Speaker 2: as if we're sitting and watching a runway show, and
Speaker 2: I'll have my glasses on and he's going to have
Speaker 2: the girls start and then have everybody freeze and have
Speaker 2: me start. You think that I can't see you sitting
Speaker 2: there with glee, eager for the ending you've been waiting
Speaker 2: years to see. Today she's getting ousted. Yes, her final
Speaker 2: hour's nigh. Miranda's rain has run its course, that's.
Speaker 6: What you think, oh my, And then it goes into
Speaker 6: like a total banger, and it's like this techno, it's
Speaker 6: going to be incredible.
Speaker 1: Now I want to say, my god, I mean, here
Speaker 1: you are. It brings me to tears. Almost here you
Speaker 1: are having to deal with because when all of us
Speaker 1: deal with something painful in your career, when you fall down,
Speaker 1: they watch you fall down, but the first words out
Speaker 1: of their mouth after them is what's she going to do?
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember Michelle Pfeiffer had that great quote.
Speaker 1: She said, the acting's free. You pay me for all
Speaker 1: the other crap I got to put up with, you know,
Speaker 1: And I'm sure other people have said that. But when
Speaker 1: they knock you down, then they look at you and
Speaker 1: they're like, what's she going to do? And to think
Speaker 1: that you're about to go do this project, this great,
Speaker 1: great project? Are they talking it all about when the
Speaker 1: opening would be. What month in the fall.
Speaker 2: The opening night is December first, and that's that coincides
Speaker 2: with Elton's Big Aide benefit ball. So we're doing a
Speaker 2: command performance for that, but in London, in London at
Speaker 2: the Dominion. Yeah, but our first shows are October twenty fourth.
Speaker 2: We start at the Dominion. Yeah, I'm going to yemp it,
Speaker 2: come come.
Speaker 1: Any I want to say thank you. I am a
Speaker 1: huge fan of yours. I'm a huge fan of yours.
Speaker 1: You are this incredibly talented. You're such a bright and
Speaker 1: interesting and beyond your physical beauty, you're just such a
Speaker 1: great actress.
Speaker 2: And we're fellow board members too. I see you at
Speaker 2: the Roundabout board all of our boards staff. Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 1: You but you're but I wish you the best of
Speaker 1: luck with us. When do you leave your head over there?
Speaker 2: When mid May we start rehearsals.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, my great pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, Alec, thank you.
Speaker 3: My thanks to Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Kathleen Brusso, Zach Macnice, and
Speaker 1: Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media
Speaker 1: manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the Thing is recorded at
Speaker 1: CDM Studios in New York. I'm ALC. Baldwin. Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio