WEBVTT - Episode 8 - Hope? 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.840 BBC Studios. Hey, I'm Maggie. 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:10.880 Before we begin, I just want to flag that this 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:15.640 episode includes some very strong language, contains some descriptions of violence, 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:17.800 and deals with adult themes. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.720 We have a large painting of a astronaut laying in 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.279 a field of roses, and we bought it while we 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.560 were in the US, while I was working on SpaceX's. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.480 First scrude flights, which is a huge, huge molestone. Can 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.920 you speak a little bit about what you did at SpaceX? 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.040 So I was part of the software team and worked 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.080 on well across the time there, worked on everything from 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.720 the flight vehicles like you know, launching Falcon Dragon and 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.120 so on, and myself and a few of the other. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:59.200 It's another drizzly and cold day in London, Okay, to 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:04.200 be fair to January. But still I'm sitting across from 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:10.720 Liz and her husband Anthony American versus English. Question Anthony 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.000 or Anthony? What's the diff Okay? 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.520 So he says Anthony. I guess that's the British way 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.640 of saying it. But I say Anthony, because do you 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:21.240 ever just. 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:22.880 Like, Oh, I'm just gonna call you Tony. 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.600 He hates that, but I won't. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:28.600 Call him tone yeah, or aunt. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.640 He doesn't like that one either, but I did. I 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.240 did get an aunt tattoo. Cute. 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:39.360 I love it. I'll follow Liz Anthony it is. Anthony 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.240 continues telling me about working with SpaceX. 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:46.080 Through manufacturing satellites and the terminal to the Starling network, 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.520 and yeah, lots of different software problems over the four years. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:49.320 Amazing. 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.520 I play in a Dolly part and cover band. I 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:56.680 wouldn't be able to do that. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.520 He's being nice, but after getting to know Liz, it's 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.720 clear she needs to be with someone as brilliant as her. 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.919 The rac Tramp, Stamp and All. Liz and Anthony met 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.560 when they were teens. Anthony was working at a pub 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.880 in Oxford and Liz was visiting with a cousin. He 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:17.720 was smitten immediately. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.080 I remember thinking Liz was the most beautiful girl I've 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.800 ever seen, very distinctly, which yeah, she would cringe if 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:25.480 I tell that's through and here we are, but yeah, 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:26.919 really captivated by her. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.040 Liz does cringe when Anthony says this, letting out a 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:36.520 soft laugh under her breath. Anthony and Liz stayed in touch, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.680 took a trip through Italy together, where they fell in love. 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.400 Then later married and had kids. They're now settled in 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:49.400 acute Victorian townhouse in Wimbledon, South London. The robot Anthony 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.240 and their son built on the bookshelf Erubik's cubes dashed 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:59.120 between couch cushions. Anthony has been there through every moment 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:02.600 in Liz's life, including the moment she found out her 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:03.800 dad had been killed. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.919 I just from the shock. But it's just like kind 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:08.880 of like getting hit by a cart. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.720 You just have this thing come at you, this piece 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.600 of information that you couldn't have expected, and you're out 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:14.560 of your. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:16.680 Reference frame for like what normal is. 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:19.880 All of this stuff happened at once, and it was 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.520 like a very super chaotic time. 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.280 Yeah, it was pure chaos. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.680 He flew back to Houston with Liz and did his 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.160 best to support her through those first Heroin days. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:36.040 It's like extreme grief, like overwhelming shock that this is 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.920 real and not some horrible nightmare, and it's just sort 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.560 of an extended waking disaster where everyone is reeling in 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.200 different ways at different times. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.000 I ask what he thinks about the case. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:55.680 I would say it's unambiguous to me that she's wrongly convicted, 0:03:55.760 --> 0:04:00.640 and it's overwhelmingly obvious that this wouldn't have gone the 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.720 way that it did, and to have gone through everything, 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.120 you know, the years leading up to the court case, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:11.280 the court case itself, it's staggering that this level of 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:16.920 incompetence was allowed to be played out. And it really 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:19.680 demonstrates that you can do everything right and you can 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.760 get fucked and that's what happened here, and Sandy just 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.040 tried to do everything correctly. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.799 He's angry at a system that has taken Sandy away 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.640 from her family for a crime he believes she didn't commit. 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.839 When you kind of think about your life that could change, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:38.640 like that is just such a fracture to the way 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.800 that things happen right normally, you would have been going 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.160 back for you know, family events, reunions, holidays, whatever it 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.799 might be. And things look different after. They look different 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:50.360 for you, they look different for your kids, they look 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.000 different from the extended family. And yeah, he's just kind 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.560 of like dealing with a new reality kind of after 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:57.280 a loss like that. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.240 How do you even process the last it's multiple. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.320 Losses, Yeah, it is even now I think about it, so, 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.320 you know, I think about that, like the children don't 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.599 have the life that they would have had, otherwise and 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.960 knowing him, knowing Jim as their grandfather. 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:13.960 Yeah, it's difficult. 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:16.680 I think now of like the things that I do 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:18.400 today that I know that he would have been interested in, 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.160 and you kind of miss the dynamic that could have been, 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:25.640 which is a sentiment. 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:31.080 I completely understand grieving a reality that never came, but 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.839 you were promised it. I remember thinking this after my 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.760 dad died. If I had kids, they would never know 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:42.919 their grandpa. And while Sandy is still alive, their kids 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:44.719 can't spend any time with her. 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:47.839 You know, I see a very direct pain in my daughter. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.680 So she was young enough to have had Sandy around 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.040 early on in her life and be a significant figure. 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.520 That's still a significant figure today, but it's very difficult 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.680 for her to talk about it, to think about it, 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.240 to write letters, because of very acute pain. 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:08.280 But he says it's Liz who carries the pain most acutely. 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.640 She's changed so much over the past few years. 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:15.839 When we first moved to England, you know, Lizabeth the 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:17.800 person who would talk to the stranger on the train 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:19.400 and then you know, by the time you get to 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.880 the destination, you're going to a party with them, Whereas 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.160 I would be the person who's like noise canceling headphones on, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.200 don't even. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.520 Talk to me, let alone sad me. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.520 So that dynamic definitely changed for her because you know 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:33.320 everything that she experienced. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.480 Liz has told me about this past version of herself, 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.040 and she often talks about how her life has split 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.640 in two. There's the Liz before Jim's murder and the 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:52.120 Liz after. Where the Liz before was vivacious and gregarious, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.760 the Liz now is closed off, a gooraphobic, and can 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.160 have trouble getting out of bed. But in meeting Liz, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:06.560 I can see both sides. I think she is whip smart, funny, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.400 and mischievous. We'd laugh together on her couch or on 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.160 a trip on the tube. But during the making of 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:18.680 this podcast, I experienced my own loss. My mother, who 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.960 long suffered from Parkinson's and later dementia, passed away this year, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.720 and out of all of the messages I got, it 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.960 was Liz who I felt understood the indescribable pain of 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.520 losing a parent the most. She sent me the most 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.640 beautiful messages filled with empathy because she walks this grief 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:43.760 every single day, and in many ways, she's lost both 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:48.080 of her parents. Liz really didn't have to do that, 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:54.119 but nonetheless I'm grateful. It's really hard to talk about death, 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.280 but it is something that can unite us. While I 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.480 don't know the exact pain Liz and through I can 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.880 understand through my own a tiny sliver of her pain. 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:11.080 And I mean really really tiny sliver. Because whether you 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:16.000 believe that Sandy is innocent or guilty, you cannot ignore 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:22.640 the immense loss that permeates every facet of the story. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.920 But the story isn't over yet. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.200 I feel incredibly appreciative that you have an organization like 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:35.040 the Innocence of Projects supporting you, because, frankly speaking, to 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.360 try and deal with this yourself like it feels impossible. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.679 It just feels like you resigned to accept that you've 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.319 been crushed. So you do feel hope, Yeah. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.360 I feel like there's a little glimmer of hope. We 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.760 might not get the results we want, but at least 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.960 we had the heavyweights behind us, and at least it 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:53.120 gives us a fighting chance. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:01.960 I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC's Studios and iHeart Podcasts. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:26.480 This is Hands Tied, Episode eight Hope. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.120 The Innocence Project of Texas is a nonprofit that I 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.280 co founded back in two thousand and six, and ultimately 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.480 we strive to exonerate the innocent people that we have 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.560 identified and get them out of prison. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.800 This is Mike Ware who, after getting a call from 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.439 Sandy's legal teams, started to review her case. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.800 He dove headfirst. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:48.480 Into Sandy's file, reviewing the various appeals court transcripts, He 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.440 talked to Liz and met Sandy, and has come to 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:53.959 the conclusion that. 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:59.679 The accusations were unique and on their face, to me, 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.000 ridiculous and preposterous. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.560 Why do you think that Jerry then believed it? 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:11.160 Sometimes I think people prefer to believe the more elaborate 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:16.440 and interesting story rather than the more logical and perhaps 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:21.720 less interesting story. Perhaps it was more attractive to believe 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:27.160 this crazy story that the prosecutors spun than it was 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:31.400 to believe that someone or somebody invaded the home and 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:32.600 committed this murder. 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.640 So Mike and the Innocence Project of Texas agree to 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:41.480 take on Sandy's case. But it's not going to be easy. 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:46.280 Despite all the rhetoric, It's so much easier to convict 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.040 a completely innocent person than it is to exonerate a 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.880 completely innocent person once they've been convicted. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.600 It's almost a se Saphean task to try and get 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.160 a jury verdict overturned. The only option left is for 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.000 them to file a writ of habeas corpus, which is 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.400 essentially asking a federal court to review Sandy's case because 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:12.120 they believe that she is unfairly imprisoned. To succeed, they 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.040 need to come up with clear and convincing new evidence. 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.360 They can't rehash arguments made during the trial or appeal. 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.200 There are only very limited grounds you can raise in 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.360 a habeas corpus. It's very tricky to even get heard because, 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.240 as the courts will tell you time and time again, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.319 you know, finality of judgment is very important to our system. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:43.080 The odds are stacked against them, and Mike knows this well. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.360 The prosecution may have told a better story that Sandy 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:51.280 was a bitter housewife who killed Jim, tied and locked 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.960 herself in a closet. Mike and his team hope that 0:11:55.120 --> 0:12:00.160 science will tell a different story, and they're relying on DNA. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.680 Originally, investigators collected over one hundred items of evidence to 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:05.720 be tested for DNA. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:11.600 This is Mike's colleague, attorney Chase Baumgartner, who also happens 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.400 to be a forensic scientist. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.840 Part of this investigation we're doing now, and part of 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.320 the story of Sandy's case, is the evolution of DNA testing. 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.760 On the night Jim's body was found, the police swapped 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.880 the crime scene for DNA. They also bagged up evidence 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:35.080 for further testing, like the cord used to tie Sandy up, clothing, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.479 and the murder weapon, but the test results were inconclusive. 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.280 They generated all this data and in most instances they 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.720 just said, it's too complicated, it's too low level, so 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.200 we can't tell you anything about the DNA profiles we developed, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.880 and has left us kind of in the dark of 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.040 what all this evidence really points to and what it 0:12:58.080 --> 0:12:58.720 could implicate. 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.400 Meaning it's either a sample with too many people's DNA 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:07.280 mixed together or sample without enough DNA in it. The 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.400 original testing was done more than a decade ago, and 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.640 science has progressed since then. Now the Innocence Project of 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.840 Texas is getting the samples reanalyzed and the hope this 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.719 will throw up something new, possibly the new evidence they 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.120 need to get Sandy's case back in court. And they've 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.280 got news. They asked Liz to jump on a call, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:29.000 and I'm. 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:30.040 Really looking forward to hearing those. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.600 Liz, Hi, how are you good, How are you doing? 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:42.719 I'm all right, thank you. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.320 Well, thank you for joining us. I think we'll get 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.640 started by letting Chase catch you up on some of 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.160 the new, in my opinion, very promising findings that we've 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.760 gotten through additional DNA analysis. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.520 Liz, lets me listen in on her call with the 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:06.480 Innocence Project of Texas. They've reanalyzed some of the DNA 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.559 samples and discovered something interesting on a knife that was 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.880 found submerged at the bottom of the jacuzzi, the murder weapon. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.280 Your dad's DNA was found on the knife originally. Yeah, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:19.880 But what we did do is we went to a 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.040 new lab that specializes in low level data and they 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.360 were able to determine it for sure is a mixture 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.520 of at least two people. They actually think it's best 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.440 described as a mixture of two people and agree that 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.200 it still is your dad's DNA on there. But they 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.680 found an unknown DNA profile on that knife handle, and 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:40.920 they compared it to your whole family, to your mom, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.720 to you, to your relatives and everything and no matches. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:46.200 Everyone was excluded. 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.400 So, according to this new analysis, there are two people's 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:54.560 DNA on the murder weapon. There's Jim's DNA and there's 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.640 someone else's, someone that isn't Sandy. 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.640 The fact there's an unknown person who's not her, who's 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.840 not Jim, who's not a family member, who's not a 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:09.320 neighbor on this murder weapon supports her theory. Potentially, eve 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.480 improves her theory that an unknown person was wielding this 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:17.880 knife when they killed Jim. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.760 This is a game changer in Mike Ware's view. This 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.280 could be the missing evidence they need to get Sandy's 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:25.440 case re examined. 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.920 We don't know whose DNA it is, but it is 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:34.440 definitely not hers. So it's highly likely that whoever last 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:40.160 touched that murder weapon handle is the real perpetrator, and 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.720 that person is not your mom. I think that alone 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.120 almost certainly would have changed the outcome of the trip. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.640 So as just kind of as a quick refresher, right, 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.200 I guess there's a lot of information to take in 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:57.160 and try to digest. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.400 Mike and Chase explain to Liz that they I ask 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.359 the lab to check if that unknown profile appears anywhere 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.480 else in the crime scene, and it does showing up 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.440 on a stool found outside of the closet where Jim 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:12.120 was found. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.240 You you know the shower stool I'm talking about. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.520 Yeah, there's like a blood mark on it. 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.240 Yeah, exactly, And that is consistent with whoever touched that 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.320 knife handle or whoever held that knife handle. So I 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.640 think that, you know, that a pretty strong connection between 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.680 who was involved in this case. But the problem is 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:33.320 we don't know who that is at this point. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.000 Yeah, that's a lot of other imagement had taken. So 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.160 what now, what like, what do we do with all 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:41.760 this information? 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:43.840 Where do we know? How do we move forward from here? 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.720 At this stage, they don't know whose DNA it is, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:53.240 but it's still a huge development and Chase remains hopeful. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.920 I think DNA could be the clincher for Sandy's case 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.800 because it shows the state's theory that there was no 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:04.320 one else in the house is false. The whole theory 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.440 was based on that there was no force entry. There's 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.359 only two people here. It's only Sandy, it's only Jim, 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.280 and there's only one person alive, so it had to 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.160 be Sandy, and the DNA shows. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:16.040 That's a lie. 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.320 So what like, how long? I know, think this is 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.920 more of a marathon than a sprint, Right, we've already 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.439 been here, like my mom's already been in prison for yours. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.359 Well, using that metaphor, yeah, that there's some truth to that. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.600 Let's be optimistic though, let's say it's more like a 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.359 ten k than a sprint. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.359 Do you believe injustice? Like, do you think that is 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:42.600 something that is actually obtainable or given out by what 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.720 is commonly referred to as the criminal justice system? Because 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:47.720 to me, it feels like a penal system, it feels 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:49.800 like a legal system. It doesn't really feel like a 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.760 justice system. And I don't know if I'm just super 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.679 jadd but I was just wondering if you really do 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.240 believe in justice, and you know, you dedicated your life 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.439 to this project. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.159 I can understand how you'd feel that way. But the 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.040 answer is yes, I absolutely do. I think the truth 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.399 has a power of its own, and I think it 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.919 will eventually surface if you stick with the case. Not 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.040 to sound hokey or corny, but the truth has a 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.240 way of being able to claw its way out of 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.440 a hole and climb out into the daylight. 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.000 The pursuit of justice. I'm not sure there's a nobler pursuit, 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.399 at least for me. So I haven't a faith in 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:29.879 the power of the truth and the power of the 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.760 pursuit to keep fighting day in and day out for it. 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.399 Thank you. I appreciate that. And the time and energy 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.480 that you've expended not only on this case but for 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.439 other people who are in similar positions. 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:45.720 Well, we appreciate you, Liz. Thank you. 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.160 Can I ask you, Liz, how does it feel hearing 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.520 all this new information and how do you think your 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:56.880 mom would feel hearing it. 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.040 I just don't have any that this is just how 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.280 it is, and so if things don't go well, then 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.880 I wasn't expecting it. And if things do go well, 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.480 then it's even better, right because I wasn't expecting anything. 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.920 So for me, I'm just waiting. I have information, and 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.960 I'm going to wait until I have more. My mom, however, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.359 gets her hopes up very easily, and so I have 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.280 to do a lot of talking to make sure that 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:34.520 she tempers her expectations and that she understands that time 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.639 is going to crawl. Yeah, I think she'll be I 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.440 think this will give her the extra bit of hope 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.880 that she might need to you know, make it in 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:46.199 prison for. 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:48.880 A little longer, however long it might be. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.320 And more than anything else, this family needs hope and 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.840 they are not giving up offering a one hundred thousand 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.920 dollar dollar reward for any new information regarding Sandy's case 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.719 that would prove her innocence. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.240 So today we are marking the size of a traditional tattoo. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.400 Tattoos were really important, really especially in our culture. 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.200 But there were banned where we were colonized. So we're 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.119 trying to keep the tradition, you know, anyways in a 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:33.640 good way. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.520 I'm crouched somewhere between the bed and a stool and 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:44.520 tattoo artist Adam's flat in London. Liz is here with me. 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:47.879 Though I may have toyed with the idea of getting 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.879 one as well, I'm really here to watch us. Liz 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.320 a's another piece to her inked altar. 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.359 Maybe right above the blue, like right on the blue 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.679 or yeah, it's good today and again it's part of 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:07.080 like the whippie that my grandmother wore. So can you 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:16.880 have any It's just a red plain red band. Yeah. 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.600 Adam makes a quick sketch with a blue pen, creating 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.160 a stencil that he then places on Liz's wrist. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.320 So what do you think about this repetition of the stars. Yeah, 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:30.440 they also represent flowers as well. 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.880 Yeah, and for directions, he moves her hand left and right, 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.919 seeing how the pattern shifts and changes with motion. The 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.400 star is based on a piece of fabric Liz brought 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.640 back from her dad's village in Guatemala. 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:50.520 They take hours, hundreds of hours to shoot, I mean months. Yeah. Weaving, 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:54.600 it's all done by hand. It's all done on the 0:21:54.640 --> 0:22:00.560 backstrap blooms. They spin their own cotton. They use natural dies. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.639 There's one plant that I can't remember which one it is, 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.400 but depending on when in the cycle of the moon 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.720 it's it's been picked and processed. It can be like 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.399 a deep purple or it can be a lavender color 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.359 anywhere in between. It's I think it's just like really 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.119 cool that they had all this knowledge. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:27.159 Yes, it's a whole process, right, I got it, Like 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:28.720 what you write. 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.880 So can you walk me through what you're doing right now? 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:41.679 Right now? Where I'm just in the right size for needles. Yeah, 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:47.440 that's because he's gonna be hamp hoed and he chooses needles. 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:52.000 Here he takes a sterile needle out of its packaging 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:56.280 and tapes a colorful macafeather into the bamboo cane holding 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:00.440 the needle. He then picks up a headdress of these 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.960 brilliant macaw feathers and deep teals, bright blues and vibrant 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.480 purples and wraps it around his head. 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:12.040 You've seen these headbands before, right, so we use them 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.600 in the in the head. That's a connection, you know, 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:18.560 with the with the symbology and the. 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:19.720 Ceremonial side as well. 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:23.879 So it's good too to use it in the ceremony 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:27.240 like this, Please sell off for me, please, Like over there. 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:30.600 He lights a piece of copole a resin from the 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:34.600 Mexican copoultry and swirls the aromatic smoke all around list 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:36.680 while she stands with her eyes closed. 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.679 And now you can clean your face with the smoke, 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:41.919 like washing it. 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.320 She uses her hands to brush the smoke up over 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.720 her head and shoulders. 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:50.040 And also take this moke wherever you feel pain in 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:55.720 your body, you're gonna say everywhere, right, she carefully, is 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:59.320 really hot, all right, and we're ready, come and sit 0:23:59.359 --> 0:23:59.760 down with me. 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:05.720 Liz outstretches her wrist as he dips the needle into 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:09.840 the deep red ink the tattoo will be done by hand, 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:14.119 dot by dot, a point to less painting on skin. 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:17.280 I mean it shows who my dad was or where 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:22.200