Speaker 1: BBC Studios. Hey, I'm Maggie.
Speaker 2: Before we begin, I just want to flag that this
Speaker 2: episode includes some very strong language, contains some descriptions of violence,
Speaker 2: and deals with adult themes.
Speaker 3: We have a large painting of a astronaut laying in
Speaker 3: a field of roses, and we bought it while we
Speaker 3: were in the US, while I was working on SpaceX's.
Speaker 1: First scrude flights, which is a huge, huge molestone. Can
Speaker 1: you speak a little bit about what you did at SpaceX?
Speaker 3: So I was part of the software team and worked
Speaker 3: on well across the time there, worked on everything from
Speaker 3: the flight vehicles like you know, launching Falcon Dragon and
Speaker 3: so on, and myself and a few of the other.
Speaker 2: It's another drizzly and cold day in London, Okay, to
Speaker 2: be fair to January. But still I'm sitting across from
Speaker 2: Liz and her husband Anthony American versus English. Question Anthony
Speaker 2: or Anthony? What's the diff Okay?
Speaker 4: So he says Anthony. I guess that's the British way
Speaker 4: of saying it. But I say Anthony, because do you
Speaker 4: ever just.
Speaker 1: Like, Oh, I'm just gonna call you Tony.
Speaker 4: He hates that, but I won't.
Speaker 2: Call him tone yeah, or aunt.
Speaker 4: He doesn't like that one either, but I did. I
Speaker 4: did get an aunt tattoo. Cute.
Speaker 2: I love it. I'll follow Liz Anthony it is. Anthony
Speaker 2: continues telling me about working with SpaceX.
Speaker 3: Through manufacturing satellites and the terminal to the Starling network,
Speaker 3: and yeah, lots of different software problems over the four years.
Speaker 5: Amazing.
Speaker 1: I play in a Dolly part and cover band. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to do that.
Speaker 2: He's being nice, but after getting to know Liz, it's
Speaker 2: clear she needs to be with someone as brilliant as her.
Speaker 2: The rac Tramp, Stamp and All. Liz and Anthony met
Speaker 2: when they were teens. Anthony was working at a pub
Speaker 2: in Oxford and Liz was visiting with a cousin. He
Speaker 2: was smitten immediately.
Speaker 3: I remember thinking Liz was the most beautiful girl I've
Speaker 3: ever seen, very distinctly, which yeah, she would cringe if
Speaker 3: I tell that's through and here we are, but yeah,
Speaker 3: really captivated by her.
Speaker 2: Liz does cringe when Anthony says this, letting out a
Speaker 2: soft laugh under her breath. Anthony and Liz stayed in touch,
Speaker 2: took a trip through Italy together, where they fell in love.
Speaker 2: Then later married and had kids. They're now settled in
Speaker 2: acute Victorian townhouse in Wimbledon, South London. The robot Anthony
Speaker 2: and their son built on the bookshelf Erubik's cubes dashed
Speaker 2: between couch cushions. Anthony has been there through every moment
Speaker 2: in Liz's life, including the moment she found out her
Speaker 2: dad had been killed.
Speaker 1: I just from the shock. But it's just like kind
Speaker 1: of like getting hit by a cart.
Speaker 3: You just have this thing come at you, this piece
Speaker 3: of information that you couldn't have expected, and you're out
Speaker 3: of your.
Speaker 1: Reference frame for like what normal is.
Speaker 3: All of this stuff happened at once, and it was
Speaker 3: like a very super chaotic time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was pure chaos.
Speaker 2: He flew back to Houston with Liz and did his
Speaker 2: best to support her through those first Heroin days.
Speaker 3: It's like extreme grief, like overwhelming shock that this is
Speaker 3: real and not some horrible nightmare, and it's just sort
Speaker 3: of an extended waking disaster where everyone is reeling in
Speaker 3: different ways at different times.
Speaker 2: I ask what he thinks about the case.
Speaker 3: I would say it's unambiguous to me that she's wrongly convicted,
Speaker 3: and it's overwhelmingly obvious that this wouldn't have gone the
Speaker 3: way that it did, and to have gone through everything,
Speaker 3: you know, the years leading up to the court case,
Speaker 3: the court case itself, it's staggering that this level of
Speaker 3: incompetence was allowed to be played out. And it really
Speaker 3: demonstrates that you can do everything right and you can
Speaker 3: get fucked and that's what happened here, and Sandy just
Speaker 3: tried to do everything correctly.
Speaker 2: He's angry at a system that has taken Sandy away
Speaker 2: from her family for a crime he believes she didn't commit.
Speaker 3: When you kind of think about your life that could change,
Speaker 3: like that is just such a fracture to the way
Speaker 3: that things happen right normally, you would have been going
Speaker 3: back for you know, family events, reunions, holidays, whatever it
Speaker 3: might be. And things look different after. They look different
Speaker 3: for you, they look different for your kids, they look
Speaker 3: different from the extended family. And yeah, he's just kind
Speaker 3: of like dealing with a new reality kind of after
Speaker 3: a loss like that.
Speaker 1: How do you even process the last it's multiple.
Speaker 3: Losses, Yeah, it is even now I think about it, so,
Speaker 3: you know, I think about that, like the children don't
Speaker 3: have the life that they would have had, otherwise and
Speaker 3: knowing him, knowing Jim as their grandfather.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's difficult.
Speaker 3: I think now of like the things that I do
Speaker 3: today that I know that he would have been interested in,
Speaker 3: and you kind of miss the dynamic that could have been,
Speaker 3: which is a sentiment.
Speaker 2: I completely understand grieving a reality that never came, but
Speaker 2: you were promised it. I remember thinking this after my
Speaker 2: dad died. If I had kids, they would never know
Speaker 2: their grandpa. And while Sandy is still alive, their kids
Speaker 2: can't spend any time with her.
Speaker 1: You know, I see a very direct pain in my daughter.
Speaker 3: So she was young enough to have had Sandy around
Speaker 3: early on in her life and be a significant figure.
Speaker 3: That's still a significant figure today, but it's very difficult
Speaker 3: for her to talk about it, to think about it,
Speaker 3: to write letters, because of very acute pain.
Speaker 2: But he says it's Liz who carries the pain most acutely.
Speaker 2: She's changed so much over the past few years.
Speaker 3: When we first moved to England, you know, Lizabeth the
Speaker 3: person who would talk to the stranger on the train
Speaker 3: and then you know, by the time you get to
Speaker 3: the destination, you're going to a party with them, Whereas
Speaker 3: I would be the person who's like noise canceling headphones on,
Speaker 3: don't even.
Speaker 1: Talk to me, let alone sad me.
Speaker 3: So that dynamic definitely changed for her because you know
Speaker 3: everything that she experienced.
Speaker 2: Liz has told me about this past version of herself,
Speaker 2: and she often talks about how her life has split
Speaker 2: in two. There's the Liz before Jim's murder and the
Speaker 2: Liz after. Where the Liz before was vivacious and gregarious,
Speaker 2: the Liz now is closed off, a gooraphobic, and can
Speaker 2: have trouble getting out of bed. But in meeting Liz,
Speaker 2: I can see both sides. I think she is whip smart, funny,
Speaker 2: and mischievous. We'd laugh together on her couch or on
Speaker 2: a trip on the tube. But during the making of
Speaker 2: this podcast, I experienced my own loss. My mother, who
Speaker 2: long suffered from Parkinson's and later dementia, passed away this year,
Speaker 2: and out of all of the messages I got, it
Speaker 2: was Liz who I felt understood the indescribable pain of
Speaker 2: losing a parent the most. She sent me the most
Speaker 2: beautiful messages filled with empathy because she walks this grief
Speaker 2: every single day, and in many ways, she's lost both
Speaker 2: of her parents. Liz really didn't have to do that,
Speaker 2: but nonetheless I'm grateful. It's really hard to talk about death,
Speaker 2: but it is something that can unite us. While I
Speaker 2: don't know the exact pain Liz and through I can
Speaker 2: understand through my own a tiny sliver of her pain.
Speaker 2: And I mean really really tiny sliver. Because whether you
Speaker 2: believe that Sandy is innocent or guilty, you cannot ignore
Speaker 2: the immense loss that permeates every facet of the story.
Speaker 2: But the story isn't over yet.
Speaker 3: I feel incredibly appreciative that you have an organization like
Speaker 3: the Innocence of Projects supporting you, because, frankly speaking, to
Speaker 3: try and deal with this yourself like it feels impossible.
Speaker 1: It just feels like you resigned to accept that you've
Speaker 1: been crushed. So you do feel hope, Yeah.
Speaker 4: I feel like there's a little glimmer of hope. We
Speaker 4: might not get the results we want, but at least
Speaker 4: we had the heavyweights behind us, and at least it
Speaker 4: gives us a fighting chance.
Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC's Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2: This is Hands Tied, Episode eight Hope.
Speaker 6: The Innocence Project of Texas is a nonprofit that I
Speaker 6: co founded back in two thousand and six, and ultimately
Speaker 6: we strive to exonerate the innocent people that we have
Speaker 6: identified and get them out of prison.
Speaker 2: This is Mike Ware who, after getting a call from
Speaker 2: Sandy's legal teams, started to review her case.
Speaker 1: He dove headfirst.
Speaker 2: Into Sandy's file, reviewing the various appeals court transcripts, He
Speaker 2: talked to Liz and met Sandy, and has come to
Speaker 2: the conclusion that.
Speaker 6: The accusations were unique and on their face, to me,
Speaker 6: ridiculous and preposterous.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that Jerry then believed it?
Speaker 6: Sometimes I think people prefer to believe the more elaborate
Speaker 6: and interesting story rather than the more logical and perhaps
Speaker 6: less interesting story. Perhaps it was more attractive to believe
Speaker 6: this crazy story that the prosecutors spun than it was
Speaker 6: to believe that someone or somebody invaded the home and
Speaker 6: committed this murder.
Speaker 2: So Mike and the Innocence Project of Texas agree to
Speaker 2: take on Sandy's case. But it's not going to be easy.
Speaker 6: Despite all the rhetoric, It's so much easier to convict
Speaker 6: a completely innocent person than it is to exonerate a
Speaker 6: completely innocent person once they've been convicted.
Speaker 2: It's almost a se Saphean task to try and get
Speaker 2: a jury verdict overturned. The only option left is for
Speaker 2: them to file a writ of habeas corpus, which is
Speaker 2: essentially asking a federal court to review Sandy's case because
Speaker 2: they believe that she is unfairly imprisoned. To succeed, they
Speaker 2: need to come up with clear and convincing new evidence.
Speaker 2: They can't rehash arguments made during the trial or appeal.
Speaker 6: There are only very limited grounds you can raise in
Speaker 6: a habeas corpus. It's very tricky to even get heard because,
Speaker 6: as the courts will tell you time and time again,
Speaker 6: you know, finality of judgment is very important to our system.
Speaker 2: The odds are stacked against them, and Mike knows this well.
Speaker 2: The prosecution may have told a better story that Sandy
Speaker 2: was a bitter housewife who killed Jim, tied and locked
Speaker 2: herself in a closet. Mike and his team hope that
Speaker 2: science will tell a different story, and they're relying on DNA.
Speaker 5: Originally, investigators collected over one hundred items of evidence to
Speaker 5: be tested for DNA.
Speaker 2: This is Mike's colleague, attorney Chase Baumgartner, who also happens
Speaker 2: to be a forensic scientist.
Speaker 5: Part of this investigation we're doing now, and part of
Speaker 5: the story of Sandy's case, is the evolution of DNA testing.
Speaker 2: On the night Jim's body was found, the police swapped
Speaker 2: the crime scene for DNA. They also bagged up evidence
Speaker 2: for further testing, like the cord used to tie Sandy up, clothing,
Speaker 2: and the murder weapon, but the test results were inconclusive.
Speaker 5: They generated all this data and in most instances they
Speaker 5: just said, it's too complicated, it's too low level, so
Speaker 5: we can't tell you anything about the DNA profiles we developed,
Speaker 5: and has left us kind of in the dark of
Speaker 5: what all this evidence really points to and what it
Speaker 5: could implicate.
Speaker 2: Meaning it's either a sample with too many people's DNA
Speaker 2: mixed together or sample without enough DNA in it. The
Speaker 2: original testing was done more than a decade ago, and
Speaker 2: science has progressed since then. Now the Innocence Project of
Speaker 2: Texas is getting the samples reanalyzed and the hope this
Speaker 2: will throw up something new, possibly the new evidence they
Speaker 2: need to get Sandy's case back in court. And they've
Speaker 2: got news. They asked Liz to jump on a call,
Speaker 2: and I'm.
Speaker 7: Really looking forward to hearing those.
Speaker 6: Liz, Hi, how are you good, How are you doing?
Speaker 7: I'm all right, thank you.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you for joining us. I think we'll get
Speaker 6: started by letting Chase catch you up on some of
Speaker 6: the new, in my opinion, very promising findings that we've
Speaker 6: gotten through additional DNA analysis.
Speaker 2: Liz, lets me listen in on her call with the
Speaker 2: Innocence Project of Texas. They've reanalyzed some of the DNA
Speaker 2: samples and discovered something interesting on a knife that was
Speaker 2: found submerged at the bottom of the jacuzzi, the murder weapon.
Speaker 5: Your dad's DNA was found on the knife originally. Yeah,
Speaker 5: But what we did do is we went to a
Speaker 5: new lab that specializes in low level data and they
Speaker 5: were able to determine it for sure is a mixture
Speaker 5: of at least two people. They actually think it's best
Speaker 5: described as a mixture of two people and agree that
Speaker 5: it still is your dad's DNA on there. But they
Speaker 5: found an unknown DNA profile on that knife handle, and
Speaker 5: they compared it to your whole family, to your mom,
Speaker 5: to you, to your relatives and everything and no matches.
Speaker 5: Everyone was excluded.
Speaker 2: So, according to this new analysis, there are two people's
Speaker 2: DNA on the murder weapon. There's Jim's DNA and there's
Speaker 2: someone else's, someone that isn't Sandy.
Speaker 5: The fact there's an unknown person who's not her, who's
Speaker 5: not Jim, who's not a family member, who's not a
Speaker 5: neighbor on this murder weapon supports her theory. Potentially, eve
Speaker 5: improves her theory that an unknown person was wielding this
Speaker 5: knife when they killed Jim.
Speaker 2: This is a game changer in Mike Ware's view. This
Speaker 2: could be the missing evidence they need to get Sandy's
Speaker 2: case re examined.
Speaker 6: We don't know whose DNA it is, but it is
Speaker 6: definitely not hers. So it's highly likely that whoever last
Speaker 6: touched that murder weapon handle is the real perpetrator, and
Speaker 6: that person is not your mom. I think that alone
Speaker 6: almost certainly would have changed the outcome of the trip.
Speaker 5: So as just kind of as a quick refresher, right,
Speaker 5: I guess there's a lot of information to take in
Speaker 5: and try to digest.
Speaker 2: Mike and Chase explain to Liz that they I ask
Speaker 2: the lab to check if that unknown profile appears anywhere
Speaker 2: else in the crime scene, and it does showing up
Speaker 2: on a stool found outside of the closet where Jim
Speaker 2: was found.
Speaker 5: You you know the shower stool I'm talking about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's like a blood mark on it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, And that is consistent with whoever touched that
Speaker 5: knife handle or whoever held that knife handle. So I
Speaker 5: think that, you know, that a pretty strong connection between
Speaker 5: who was involved in this case. But the problem is
Speaker 5: we don't know who that is at this point.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a lot of other imagement had taken. So
Speaker 7: what now, what like, what do we do with all
Speaker 7: this information?
Speaker 4: Where do we know? How do we move forward from here?
Speaker 2: At this stage, they don't know whose DNA it is,
Speaker 2: but it's still a huge development and Chase remains hopeful.
Speaker 5: I think DNA could be the clincher for Sandy's case
Speaker 5: because it shows the state's theory that there was no
Speaker 5: one else in the house is false. The whole theory
Speaker 5: was based on that there was no force entry. There's
Speaker 5: only two people here. It's only Sandy, it's only Jim,
Speaker 5: and there's only one person alive, so it had to
Speaker 5: be Sandy, and the DNA shows.
Speaker 1: That's a lie.
Speaker 4: So what like, how long? I know, think this is
Speaker 4: more of a marathon than a sprint, Right, we've already
Speaker 4: been here, like my mom's already been in prison for yours.
Speaker 6: Well, using that metaphor, yeah, that there's some truth to that.
Speaker 6: Let's be optimistic though, let's say it's more like a
Speaker 6: ten k than a sprint.
Speaker 7: Do you believe injustice? Like, do you think that is
Speaker 7: something that is actually obtainable or given out by what
Speaker 7: is commonly referred to as the criminal justice system? Because
Speaker 7: to me, it feels like a penal system, it feels
Speaker 7: like a legal system. It doesn't really feel like a
Speaker 7: justice system. And I don't know if I'm just super
Speaker 7: jadd but I was just wondering if you really do
Speaker 7: believe in justice, and you know, you dedicated your life
Speaker 7: to this project.
Speaker 6: I can understand how you'd feel that way. But the
Speaker 6: answer is yes, I absolutely do. I think the truth
Speaker 6: has a power of its own, and I think it
Speaker 6: will eventually surface if you stick with the case. Not
Speaker 6: to sound hokey or corny, but the truth has a
Speaker 6: way of being able to claw its way out of
Speaker 6: a hole and climb out into the daylight.
Speaker 5: The pursuit of justice. I'm not sure there's a nobler pursuit,
Speaker 5: at least for me. So I haven't a faith in
Speaker 5: the power of the truth and the power of the
Speaker 5: pursuit to keep fighting day in and day out for it.
Speaker 7: Thank you. I appreciate that. And the time and energy
Speaker 7: that you've expended not only on this case but for
Speaker 7: other people who are in similar positions.
Speaker 6: Well, we appreciate you, Liz. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you, Liz, how does it feel hearing
Speaker 2: all this new information and how do you think your
Speaker 2: mom would feel hearing it.
Speaker 7: I just don't have any that this is just how
Speaker 7: it is, and so if things don't go well, then
Speaker 7: I wasn't expecting it. And if things do go well,
Speaker 7: then it's even better, right because I wasn't expecting anything.
Speaker 7: So for me, I'm just waiting. I have information, and
Speaker 7: I'm going to wait until I have more. My mom, however,
Speaker 7: gets her hopes up very easily, and so I have
Speaker 7: to do a lot of talking to make sure that
Speaker 7: she tempers her expectations and that she understands that time
Speaker 7: is going to crawl. Yeah, I think she'll be I
Speaker 7: think this will give her the extra bit of hope
Speaker 7: that she might need to you know, make it in
Speaker 7: prison for.
Speaker 4: A little longer, however long it might be.
Speaker 2: And more than anything else, this family needs hope and
Speaker 2: they are not giving up offering a one hundred thousand
Speaker 2: dollar dollar reward for any new information regarding Sandy's case
Speaker 2: that would prove her innocence.
Speaker 1: So today we are marking the size of a traditional tattoo.
Speaker 8: Tattoos were really important, really especially in our culture.
Speaker 1: But there were banned where we were colonized. So we're
Speaker 1: trying to keep the tradition, you know, anyways in a
Speaker 1: good way.
Speaker 2: I'm crouched somewhere between the bed and a stool and
Speaker 2: tattoo artist Adam's flat in London. Liz is here with me.
Speaker 2: Though I may have toyed with the idea of getting
Speaker 2: one as well, I'm really here to watch us. Liz
Speaker 2: a's another piece to her inked altar.
Speaker 4: Maybe right above the blue, like right on the blue
Speaker 4: or yeah, it's good today and again it's part of
Speaker 4: like the whippie that my grandmother wore. So can you
Speaker 4: have any It's just a red plain red band. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Adam makes a quick sketch with a blue pen, creating
Speaker 2: a stencil that he then places on Liz's wrist.
Speaker 1: So what do you think about this repetition of the stars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they also represent flowers as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for directions, he moves her hand left and right,
Speaker 2: seeing how the pattern shifts and changes with motion. The
Speaker 2: star is based on a piece of fabric Liz brought
Speaker 2: back from her dad's village in Guatemala.
Speaker 4: They take hours, hundreds of hours to shoot, I mean months. Yeah. Weaving,
Speaker 4: it's all done by hand. It's all done on the
Speaker 4: backstrap blooms. They spin their own cotton. They use natural dies.
Speaker 4: There's one plant that I can't remember which one it is,
Speaker 4: but depending on when in the cycle of the moon
Speaker 4: it's it's been picked and processed. It can be like
Speaker 4: a deep purple or it can be a lavender color
Speaker 4: anywhere in between. It's I think it's just like really
Speaker 4: cool that they had all this knowledge.
Speaker 8: Yes, it's a whole process, right, I got it, Like
Speaker 8: what you write.
Speaker 2: So can you walk me through what you're doing right now?
Speaker 1: Right now? Where I'm just in the right size for needles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's because he's gonna be hamp hoed and he chooses needles.
Speaker 2: Here he takes a sterile needle out of its packaging
Speaker 2: and tapes a colorful macafeather into the bamboo cane holding
Speaker 2: the needle. He then picks up a headdress of these
Speaker 2: brilliant macaw feathers and deep teals, bright blues and vibrant
Speaker 2: purples and wraps it around his head.
Speaker 8: You've seen these headbands before, right, so we use them
Speaker 8: in the in the head. That's a connection, you know,
Speaker 8: with the with the symbology and the.
Speaker 1: Ceremonial side as well.
Speaker 8: So it's good too to use it in the ceremony
Speaker 8: like this, Please sell off for me, please, Like over there.
Speaker 2: He lights a piece of copole a resin from the
Speaker 2: Mexican copoultry and swirls the aromatic smoke all around list
Speaker 2: while she stands with her eyes closed.
Speaker 1: And now you can clean your face with the smoke,
Speaker 1: like washing it.
Speaker 2: She uses her hands to brush the smoke up over
Speaker 2: her head and shoulders.
Speaker 8: And also take this moke wherever you feel pain in
Speaker 8: your body, you're gonna say everywhere, right, she carefully, is
Speaker 8: really hot, all right, and we're ready, come and sit
Speaker 8: down with me.
Speaker 2: Liz outstretches her wrist as he dips the needle into
Speaker 2: the deep red ink the tattoo will be done by hand,
Speaker 2: dot by dot, a point to less painting on skin.
Speaker 4: I mean it shows who my dad was or where
Speaker 4: he came from. Some that's important to me, you know.
Speaker 4: I think I didn't appreciate it when i was a kid,
Speaker 4: and now it's something I'm immensely proud of and very
Speaker 4: vocal about.
Speaker 2: As Adam presses the needle into Liz's wrist, I see
Speaker 2: her body begin to relax, as if the tension from
Speaker 2: the day, maybe years, temporarily releases.
Speaker 4: Today was a rough day. I definitely didn't want to
Speaker 4: leave my bed or my house today, but I definitely
Speaker 4: didn't want to get this done. Sometimes my brain just
Speaker 4: takes over and nothing helps.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that's just trauma.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard when your brain lies to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm like, I'm constantly in fight or flight,
Speaker 4: So it's exhausting.
Speaker 2: Liz has a lot of tattoos, many of them with meeting,
Speaker 2: but this one seems quite special, a talisman against those
Speaker 2: dark days.
Speaker 4: You know, just something to kind of help me keep
Speaker 4: going and stuff gets hard. Yeah, And it's just like
Speaker 4: really nice that I was able to meet up with
Speaker 4: somebody who is able to do this in a way
Speaker 4: that is kind of like the way that our ancestors
Speaker 4: would have done.
Speaker 2: Not only honoring her dad Jim, but her own spirit.
Speaker 2: The spirit of a fighter and being a fighter runs
Speaker 2: down the generations in Liz's family.
Speaker 4: And so it's a way to remember the struggle not
Speaker 4: just of my grandmother, but like also our ancestors. And yeah,
Speaker 4: that's just kind of a way to remind myself, like,
Speaker 4: my problems are not anywhere near what they experienced, food,
Speaker 4: insecurity or just general violence. It's important to me to
Speaker 4: remind myself that my problems are not nearly that bad.
Speaker 2: The tiny dots began to form into a beautiful, textured,
Speaker 2: flowing shape around her wrist, a natural fit, as if
Speaker 2: she's had it for years. And as I watch each
Speaker 2: new dot pluck into her skin, I imagine each piece of
Speaker 2: Lissa's journey and her enduring fight to free her mom
Speaker 2: and grieve her dad. I think about my own loss
Speaker 2: and the complexity of life life, but grateful for the
Speaker 2: strength Liz has shown me in our short time together
Speaker 2: and her tenacity to keep fighting. While we may never
Speaker 2: know the answer to Jim's murder, And wherever you stand
Speaker 2: on Sandy's guilt or innocence. I think we can all
Speaker 2: agree if anything bad were to happen to you, you'd
Speaker 2: want someone like Liz on your side of the ring.
Speaker 2: It's been nearly thirteen years since Jim died and Liz
Speaker 2: had to turn into an investigator instead of a grieving daughter.
Speaker 2: After all that time, She's exhausted, wants to give up,
Speaker 2: but somehow tries to fight another day. As I look
Speaker 2: closer at the tattoo, nearly complete, it starts to remind
Speaker 2: me of something else, the twisting linear strands and repeating
Speaker 2: double helix of the building blocks of all life DNA.
Speaker 2: And I can't help but wonder if DNA will be
Speaker 2: the key to unlock the rest of Lissa's story. But
Speaker 2: I guess for now, we'll just have to wait and see.
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Hands Tied from BBC Studios and
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. If you like the show, please help us
Speaker 2: by spreading the word or giving us a five star review.
Speaker 2: The series was produced by me, Maggie Robinson Katz and
Speaker 2: Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell.
Speaker 2: Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall music research by Aisha Antwe.
Speaker 2: Production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel
Speaker 2: Finnegan Wright, and our production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl.
Speaker 2: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw.
Speaker 2: At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and
Speaker 2: for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent. At
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts, David Wasserman is the brand Marketing Manager and
Speaker 2: Ali Cantor Graber is the Director of Marketing at BBC
Speaker 2: Studios Audio, our editorial standards advisor is Michael Fatta Ella
Speaker 2: Squire's our podcast marketing manager. Lucy Matthias is Commercial lead
Speaker 2: and Helen Penbury is the Commercial and Business Development Director.
Speaker 2: James Cook is a creative director of Factual for Audio,
Speaker 2: and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.