1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: BBC Studios. Hey, I'm Maggie. 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 2: Before we begin, I just want to flag that this 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: episode includes some very strong language, contains some descriptions of violence, 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: and deals with adult themes. 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 3: We have a large painting of a astronaut laying in 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 3: a field of roses, and we bought it while we 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 3: were in the US, while I was working on SpaceX's. 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: First scrude flights, which is a huge, huge molestone. Can 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: you speak a little bit about what you did at SpaceX? 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 3: So I was part of the software team and worked 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 3: on well across the time there, worked on everything from 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: the flight vehicles like you know, launching Falcon Dragon and 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 3: so on, and myself and a few of the other. 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: It's another drizzly and cold day in London, Okay, to 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: be fair to January. But still I'm sitting across from 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: Liz and her husband Anthony American versus English. Question Anthony 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: or Anthony? What's the diff Okay? 18 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 4: So he says Anthony. I guess that's the British way 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 4: of saying it. But I say Anthony, because do you 20 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 4: ever just. 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: Like, Oh, I'm just gonna call you Tony. 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 4: He hates that, but I won't. 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: Call him tone yeah, or aunt. 24 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 4: He doesn't like that one either, but I did. I 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 4: did get an aunt tattoo. Cute. 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: I love it. I'll follow Liz Anthony it is. Anthony 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: continues telling me about working with SpaceX. 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: Through manufacturing satellites and the terminal to the Starling network, 29 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 3: and yeah, lots of different software problems over the four years. 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 5: Amazing. 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: I play in a Dolly part and cover band. I 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to do that. 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: He's being nice, but after getting to know Liz, it's 34 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: clear she needs to be with someone as brilliant as her. 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: The rac Tramp, Stamp and All. Liz and Anthony met 36 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: when they were teens. Anthony was working at a pub 37 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: in Oxford and Liz was visiting with a cousin. He 38 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: was smitten immediately. 39 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 3: I remember thinking Liz was the most beautiful girl I've 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: ever seen, very distinctly, which yeah, she would cringe if 41 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: I tell that's through and here we are, but yeah, 42 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 3: really captivated by her. 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: Liz does cringe when Anthony says this, letting out a 44 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: soft laugh under her breath. Anthony and Liz stayed in touch, 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: took a trip through Italy together, where they fell in love. 46 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: Then later married and had kids. They're now settled in 47 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: acute Victorian townhouse in Wimbledon, South London. The robot Anthony 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: and their son built on the bookshelf Erubik's cubes dashed 49 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: between couch cushions. Anthony has been there through every moment 50 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: in Liz's life, including the moment she found out her 51 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: dad had been killed. 52 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: I just from the shock. But it's just like kind 53 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: of like getting hit by a cart. 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: You just have this thing come at you, this piece 55 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 3: of information that you couldn't have expected, and you're out 56 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: of your. 57 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: Reference frame for like what normal is. 58 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: All of this stuff happened at once, and it was 59 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: like a very super chaotic time. 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was pure chaos. 61 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: He flew back to Houston with Liz and did his 62 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: best to support her through those first Heroin days. 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: It's like extreme grief, like overwhelming shock that this is 64 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: real and not some horrible nightmare, and it's just sort 65 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 3: of an extended waking disaster where everyone is reeling in 66 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: different ways at different times. 67 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: I ask what he thinks about the case. 68 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 3: I would say it's unambiguous to me that she's wrongly convicted, 69 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: and it's overwhelmingly obvious that this wouldn't have gone the 70 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: way that it did, and to have gone through everything, 71 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: you know, the years leading up to the court case, 72 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: the court case itself, it's staggering that this level of 73 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 3: incompetence was allowed to be played out. And it really 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: demonstrates that you can do everything right and you can 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: get fucked and that's what happened here, and Sandy just 76 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 3: tried to do everything correctly. 77 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 2: He's angry at a system that has taken Sandy away 78 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: from her family for a crime he believes she didn't commit. 79 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 3: When you kind of think about your life that could change, 80 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: like that is just such a fracture to the way 81 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: that things happen right normally, you would have been going 82 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 3: back for you know, family events, reunions, holidays, whatever it 83 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 3: might be. And things look different after. They look different 84 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: for you, they look different for your kids, they look 85 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 3: different from the extended family. And yeah, he's just kind 86 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 3: of like dealing with a new reality kind of after 87 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 3: a loss like that. 88 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: How do you even process the last it's multiple. 89 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: Losses, Yeah, it is even now I think about it, so, 90 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: you know, I think about that, like the children don't 91 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 3: have the life that they would have had, otherwise and 92 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: knowing him, knowing Jim as their grandfather. 93 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's difficult. 94 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: I think now of like the things that I do 95 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: today that I know that he would have been interested in, 96 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: and you kind of miss the dynamic that could have been, 97 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 3: which is a sentiment. 98 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: I completely understand grieving a reality that never came, but 99 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 2: you were promised it. I remember thinking this after my 100 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: dad died. If I had kids, they would never know 101 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 2: their grandpa. And while Sandy is still alive, their kids 102 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: can't spend any time with her. 103 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: You know, I see a very direct pain in my daughter. 104 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 3: So she was young enough to have had Sandy around 105 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 3: early on in her life and be a significant figure. 106 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: That's still a significant figure today, but it's very difficult 107 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: for her to talk about it, to think about it, 108 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: to write letters, because of very acute pain. 109 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: But he says it's Liz who carries the pain most acutely. 110 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: She's changed so much over the past few years. 111 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 3: When we first moved to England, you know, Lizabeth the 112 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: person who would talk to the stranger on the train 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: and then you know, by the time you get to 114 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 3: the destination, you're going to a party with them, Whereas 115 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 3: I would be the person who's like noise canceling headphones on, 116 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: don't even. 117 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: Talk to me, let alone sad me. 118 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: So that dynamic definitely changed for her because you know 119 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: everything that she experienced. 120 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: Liz has told me about this past version of herself, 121 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 2: and she often talks about how her life has split 122 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: in two. There's the Liz before Jim's murder and the 123 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: Liz after. Where the Liz before was vivacious and gregarious, 124 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: the Liz now is closed off, a gooraphobic, and can 125 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: have trouble getting out of bed. But in meeting Liz, 126 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: I can see both sides. I think she is whip smart, funny, 127 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: and mischievous. We'd laugh together on her couch or on 128 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: a trip on the tube. But during the making of 129 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: this podcast, I experienced my own loss. My mother, who 130 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: long suffered from Parkinson's and later dementia, passed away this year, 131 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: and out of all of the messages I got, it 132 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: was Liz who I felt understood the indescribable pain of 133 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: losing a parent the most. She sent me the most 134 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: beautiful messages filled with empathy because she walks this grief 135 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: every single day, and in many ways, she's lost both 136 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: of her parents. Liz really didn't have to do that, 137 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,119 Speaker 2: but nonetheless I'm grateful. It's really hard to talk about death, 138 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: but it is something that can unite us. While I 139 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: don't know the exact pain Liz and through I can 140 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: understand through my own a tiny sliver of her pain. 141 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: And I mean really really tiny sliver. Because whether you 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: believe that Sandy is innocent or guilty, you cannot ignore 143 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: the immense loss that permeates every facet of the story. 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: But the story isn't over yet. 145 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: I feel incredibly appreciative that you have an organization like 146 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: the Innocence of Projects supporting you, because, frankly speaking, to 147 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: try and deal with this yourself like it feels impossible. 148 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: It just feels like you resigned to accept that you've 149 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: been crushed. So you do feel hope, Yeah. 150 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 4: I feel like there's a little glimmer of hope. We 151 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 4: might not get the results we want, but at least 152 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 4: we had the heavyweights behind us, and at least it 153 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 4: gives us a fighting chance. 154 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC's Studios and iHeart Podcasts. 155 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: This is Hands Tied, Episode eight Hope. 156 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 6: The Innocence Project of Texas is a nonprofit that I 157 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 6: co founded back in two thousand and six, and ultimately 158 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 6: we strive to exonerate the innocent people that we have 159 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 6: identified and get them out of prison. 160 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: This is Mike Ware who, after getting a call from 161 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 2: Sandy's legal teams, started to review her case. 162 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: He dove headfirst. 163 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: Into Sandy's file, reviewing the various appeals court transcripts, He 164 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: talked to Liz and met Sandy, and has come to 165 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 2: the conclusion that. 166 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 6: The accusations were unique and on their face, to me, 167 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 6: ridiculous and preposterous. 168 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: Why do you think that Jerry then believed it? 169 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 6: Sometimes I think people prefer to believe the more elaborate 170 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 6: and interesting story rather than the more logical and perhaps 171 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 6: less interesting story. Perhaps it was more attractive to believe 172 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 6: this crazy story that the prosecutors spun than it was 173 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 6: to believe that someone or somebody invaded the home and 174 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 6: committed this murder. 175 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: So Mike and the Innocence Project of Texas agree to 176 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: take on Sandy's case. But it's not going to be easy. 177 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 6: Despite all the rhetoric, It's so much easier to convict 178 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 6: a completely innocent person than it is to exonerate a 179 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 6: completely innocent person once they've been convicted. 180 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: It's almost a se Saphean task to try and get 181 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: a jury verdict overturned. The only option left is for 182 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: them to file a writ of habeas corpus, which is 183 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: essentially asking a federal court to review Sandy's case because 184 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: they believe that she is unfairly imprisoned. To succeed, they 185 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: need to come up with clear and convincing new evidence. 186 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: They can't rehash arguments made during the trial or appeal. 187 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 6: There are only very limited grounds you can raise in 188 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 6: a habeas corpus. It's very tricky to even get heard because, 189 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 6: as the courts will tell you time and time again, 190 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 6: you know, finality of judgment is very important to our system. 191 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 2: The odds are stacked against them, and Mike knows this well. 192 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: The prosecution may have told a better story that Sandy 193 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: was a bitter housewife who killed Jim, tied and locked 194 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 2: herself in a closet. Mike and his team hope that 195 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: science will tell a different story, and they're relying on DNA. 196 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 5: Originally, investigators collected over one hundred items of evidence to 197 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 5: be tested for DNA. 198 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: This is Mike's colleague, attorney Chase Baumgartner, who also happens 199 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: to be a forensic scientist. 200 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 5: Part of this investigation we're doing now, and part of 201 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 5: the story of Sandy's case, is the evolution of DNA testing. 202 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: On the night Jim's body was found, the police swapped 203 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: the crime scene for DNA. They also bagged up evidence 204 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 2: for further testing, like the cord used to tie Sandy up, clothing, 205 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,479 Speaker 2: and the murder weapon, but the test results were inconclusive. 206 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 5: They generated all this data and in most instances they 207 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 5: just said, it's too complicated, it's too low level, so 208 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 5: we can't tell you anything about the DNA profiles we developed, 209 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 5: and has left us kind of in the dark of 210 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 5: what all this evidence really points to and what it 211 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 5: could implicate. 212 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: Meaning it's either a sample with too many people's DNA 213 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: mixed together or sample without enough DNA in it. The 214 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 2: original testing was done more than a decade ago, and 215 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: science has progressed since then. Now the Innocence Project of 216 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: Texas is getting the samples reanalyzed and the hope this 217 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 2: will throw up something new, possibly the new evidence they 218 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: need to get Sandy's case back in court. And they've 219 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: got news. They asked Liz to jump on a call, 220 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: and I'm. 221 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 7: Really looking forward to hearing those. 222 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 6: Liz, Hi, how are you good, How are you doing? 223 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 7: I'm all right, thank you. 224 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 6: Well, thank you for joining us. I think we'll get 225 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 6: started by letting Chase catch you up on some of 226 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 6: the new, in my opinion, very promising findings that we've 227 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 6: gotten through additional DNA analysis. 228 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 2: Liz, lets me listen in on her call with the 229 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: Innocence Project of Texas. They've reanalyzed some of the DNA 230 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: samples and discovered something interesting on a knife that was 231 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: found submerged at the bottom of the jacuzzi, the murder weapon. 232 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 5: Your dad's DNA was found on the knife originally. Yeah, 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 5: But what we did do is we went to a 234 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 5: new lab that specializes in low level data and they 235 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 5: were able to determine it for sure is a mixture 236 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 5: of at least two people. They actually think it's best 237 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 5: described as a mixture of two people and agree that 238 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 5: it still is your dad's DNA on there. But they 239 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 5: found an unknown DNA profile on that knife handle, and 240 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 5: they compared it to your whole family, to your mom, 241 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 5: to you, to your relatives and everything and no matches. 242 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 5: Everyone was excluded. 243 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: So, according to this new analysis, there are two people's 244 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: DNA on the murder weapon. There's Jim's DNA and there's 245 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: someone else's, someone that isn't Sandy. 246 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 5: The fact there's an unknown person who's not her, who's 247 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 5: not Jim, who's not a family member, who's not a 248 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 5: neighbor on this murder weapon supports her theory. Potentially, eve 249 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 5: improves her theory that an unknown person was wielding this 250 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 5: knife when they killed Jim. 251 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: This is a game changer in Mike Ware's view. This 252 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: could be the missing evidence they need to get Sandy's 253 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: case re examined. 254 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 6: We don't know whose DNA it is, but it is 255 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 6: definitely not hers. So it's highly likely that whoever last 256 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 6: touched that murder weapon handle is the real perpetrator, and 257 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 6: that person is not your mom. I think that alone 258 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 6: almost certainly would have changed the outcome of the trip. 259 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 5: So as just kind of as a quick refresher, right, 260 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 5: I guess there's a lot of information to take in 261 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 5: and try to digest. 262 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: Mike and Chase explain to Liz that they I ask 263 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,359 Speaker 2: the lab to check if that unknown profile appears anywhere 264 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: else in the crime scene, and it does showing up 265 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: on a stool found outside of the closet where Jim 266 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: was found. 267 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 5: You you know the shower stool I'm talking about. 268 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's like a blood mark on it. 269 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, And that is consistent with whoever touched that 270 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 5: knife handle or whoever held that knife handle. So I 271 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 5: think that, you know, that a pretty strong connection between 272 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 5: who was involved in this case. But the problem is 273 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 5: we don't know who that is at this point. 274 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a lot of other imagement had taken. So 275 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 7: what now, what like, what do we do with all 276 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 7: this information? 277 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 4: Where do we know? How do we move forward from here? 278 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: At this stage, they don't know whose DNA it is, 279 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: but it's still a huge development and Chase remains hopeful. 280 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 5: I think DNA could be the clincher for Sandy's case 281 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 5: because it shows the state's theory that there was no 282 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 5: one else in the house is false. The whole theory 283 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 5: was based on that there was no force entry. There's 284 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 5: only two people here. It's only Sandy, it's only Jim, 285 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 5: and there's only one person alive, so it had to 286 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 5: be Sandy, and the DNA shows. 287 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: That's a lie. 288 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 4: So what like, how long? I know, think this is 289 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 4: more of a marathon than a sprint, Right, we've already 290 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 4: been here, like my mom's already been in prison for yours. 291 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 6: Well, using that metaphor, yeah, that there's some truth to that. 292 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 6: Let's be optimistic though, let's say it's more like a 293 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 6: ten k than a sprint. 294 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 7: Do you believe injustice? Like, do you think that is 295 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 7: something that is actually obtainable or given out by what 296 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 7: is commonly referred to as the criminal justice system? Because 297 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 7: to me, it feels like a penal system, it feels 298 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 7: like a legal system. It doesn't really feel like a 299 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 7: justice system. And I don't know if I'm just super 300 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 7: jadd but I was just wondering if you really do 301 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 7: believe in justice, and you know, you dedicated your life 302 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 7: to this project. 303 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 6: I can understand how you'd feel that way. But the 304 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 6: answer is yes, I absolutely do. I think the truth 305 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 6: has a power of its own, and I think it 306 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 6: will eventually surface if you stick with the case. Not 307 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 6: to sound hokey or corny, but the truth has a 308 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 6: way of being able to claw its way out of 309 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 6: a hole and climb out into the daylight. 310 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 5: The pursuit of justice. I'm not sure there's a nobler pursuit, 311 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 5: at least for me. So I haven't a faith in 312 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 5: the power of the truth and the power of the 313 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 5: pursuit to keep fighting day in and day out for it. 314 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 7: Thank you. I appreciate that. And the time and energy 315 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 7: that you've expended not only on this case but for 316 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 7: other people who are in similar positions. 317 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 6: Well, we appreciate you, Liz. Thank you. 318 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 2: Can I ask you, Liz, how does it feel hearing 319 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: all this new information and how do you think your 320 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: mom would feel hearing it. 321 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 7: I just don't have any that this is just how 322 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 7: it is, and so if things don't go well, then 323 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 7: I wasn't expecting it. And if things do go well, 324 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 7: then it's even better, right because I wasn't expecting anything. 325 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 7: So for me, I'm just waiting. I have information, and 326 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 7: I'm going to wait until I have more. My mom, however, 327 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 7: gets her hopes up very easily, and so I have 328 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 7: to do a lot of talking to make sure that 329 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 7: she tempers her expectations and that she understands that time 330 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 7: is going to crawl. Yeah, I think she'll be I 331 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 7: think this will give her the extra bit of hope 332 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 7: that she might need to you know, make it in 333 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 7: prison for. 334 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 4: A little longer, however long it might be. 335 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: And more than anything else, this family needs hope and 336 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: they are not giving up offering a one hundred thousand 337 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: dollar dollar reward for any new information regarding Sandy's case 338 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 2: that would prove her innocence. 339 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: So today we are marking the size of a traditional tattoo. 340 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 8: Tattoos were really important, really especially in our culture. 341 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: But there were banned where we were colonized. So we're 342 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: trying to keep the tradition, you know, anyways in a 343 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: good way. 344 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: I'm crouched somewhere between the bed and a stool and 345 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: tattoo artist Adam's flat in London. Liz is here with me. 346 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 2: Though I may have toyed with the idea of getting 347 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: one as well, I'm really here to watch us. Liz 348 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: a's another piece to her inked altar. 349 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 4: Maybe right above the blue, like right on the blue 350 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 4: or yeah, it's good today and again it's part of 351 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 4: like the whippie that my grandmother wore. So can you 352 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 4: have any It's just a red plain red band. Yeah. 353 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: Adam makes a quick sketch with a blue pen, creating 354 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: a stencil that he then places on Liz's wrist. 355 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: So what do you think about this repetition of the stars. Yeah, 356 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: they also represent flowers as well. 357 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and for directions, he moves her hand left and right, 358 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 2: seeing how the pattern shifts and changes with motion. The 359 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: star is based on a piece of fabric Liz brought 360 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: back from her dad's village in Guatemala. 361 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 4: They take hours, hundreds of hours to shoot, I mean months. Yeah. Weaving, 362 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 4: it's all done by hand. It's all done on the 363 00:21:54,640 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 4: backstrap blooms. They spin their own cotton. They use natural dies. 364 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 4: There's one plant that I can't remember which one it is, 365 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 4: but depending on when in the cycle of the moon 366 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 4: it's it's been picked and processed. It can be like 367 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 4: a deep purple or it can be a lavender color 368 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 4: anywhere in between. It's I think it's just like really 369 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 4: cool that they had all this knowledge. 370 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 8: Yes, it's a whole process, right, I got it, Like 371 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 8: what you write. 372 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 2: So can you walk me through what you're doing right now? 373 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: Right now? Where I'm just in the right size for needles. Yeah, 374 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: that's because he's gonna be hamp hoed and he chooses needles. 375 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: Here he takes a sterile needle out of its packaging 376 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: and tapes a colorful macafeather into the bamboo cane holding 377 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 2: the needle. He then picks up a headdress of these 378 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: brilliant macaw feathers and deep teals, bright blues and vibrant 379 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: purples and wraps it around his head. 380 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 8: You've seen these headbands before, right, so we use them 381 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 8: in the in the head. That's a connection, you know, 382 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 8: with the with the symbology and the. 383 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: Ceremonial side as well. 384 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 8: So it's good too to use it in the ceremony 385 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 8: like this, Please sell off for me, please, Like over there. 386 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: He lights a piece of copole a resin from the 387 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: Mexican copoultry and swirls the aromatic smoke all around list 388 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 2: while she stands with her eyes closed. 389 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: And now you can clean your face with the smoke, 390 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: like washing it. 391 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: She uses her hands to brush the smoke up over 392 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: her head and shoulders. 393 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 8: And also take this moke wherever you feel pain in 394 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 8: your body, you're gonna say everywhere, right, she carefully, is 395 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 8: really hot, all right, and we're ready, come and sit 396 00:23:59,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 8: down with me. 397 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: Liz outstretches her wrist as he dips the needle into 398 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: the deep red ink the tattoo will be done by hand, 399 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: dot by dot, a point to less painting on skin. 400 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 4: I mean it shows who my dad was or where 401 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 4: he came from. Some that's important to me, you know. 402 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 4: I think I didn't appreciate it when i was a kid, 403 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,479 Speaker 4: and now it's something I'm immensely proud of and very 404 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 4: vocal about. 405 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: As Adam presses the needle into Liz's wrist, I see 406 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 2: her body begin to relax, as if the tension from 407 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: the day, maybe years, temporarily releases. 408 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 4: Today was a rough day. I definitely didn't want to 409 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 4: leave my bed or my house today, but I definitely 410 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 4: didn't want to get this done. Sometimes my brain just 411 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 4: takes over and nothing helps. 412 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 413 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 4: I think that's just trauma. 414 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard when your brain lies to you. 415 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm like, I'm constantly in fight or flight, 416 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 4: So it's exhausting. 417 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: Liz has a lot of tattoos, many of them with meeting, 418 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: but this one seems quite special, a talisman against those 419 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: dark days. 420 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 4: You know, just something to kind of help me keep 421 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 4: going and stuff gets hard. Yeah, And it's just like 422 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 4: really nice that I was able to meet up with 423 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 4: somebody who is able to do this in a way 424 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 4: that is kind of like the way that our ancestors 425 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 4: would have done. 426 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: Not only honoring her dad Jim, but her own spirit. 427 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 2: The spirit of a fighter and being a fighter runs 428 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: down the generations in Liz's family. 429 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 4: And so it's a way to remember the struggle not 430 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 4: just of my grandmother, but like also our ancestors. And yeah, 431 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 4: that's just kind of a way to remind myself, like, 432 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 4: my problems are not anywhere near what they experienced, food, 433 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 4: insecurity or just general violence. It's important to me to 434 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 4: remind myself that my problems are not nearly that bad. 435 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 2: The tiny dots began to form into a beautiful, textured, 436 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: flowing shape around her wrist, a natural fit, as if 437 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: she's had it for years. And as I watch each 438 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: new dot pluck into her skin, I imagine each piece of 439 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 2: Lissa's journey and her enduring fight to free her mom 440 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 2: and grieve her dad. I think about my own loss 441 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: and the complexity of life life, but grateful for the 442 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 2: strength Liz has shown me in our short time together 443 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: and her tenacity to keep fighting. While we may never 444 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: know the answer to Jim's murder, And wherever you stand 445 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: on Sandy's guilt or innocence. I think we can all 446 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 2: agree if anything bad were to happen to you, you'd 447 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: want someone like Liz on your side of the ring. 448 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: It's been nearly thirteen years since Jim died and Liz 449 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 2: had to turn into an investigator instead of a grieving daughter. 450 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: After all that time, She's exhausted, wants to give up, 451 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: but somehow tries to fight another day. As I look 452 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: closer at the tattoo, nearly complete, it starts to remind 453 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 2: me of something else, the twisting linear strands and repeating 454 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: double helix of the building blocks of all life DNA. 455 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: And I can't help but wonder if DNA will be 456 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: the key to unlock the rest of Lissa's story. But 457 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: I guess for now, we'll just have to wait and see. 458 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: You've been listening to Hands Tied from BBC Studios and 459 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. If you like the show, please help us 460 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: by spreading the word or giving us a five star review. 461 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,239 Speaker 2: The series was produced by me, Maggie Robinson Katz and 462 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell. 463 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall music research by Aisha Antwe. 464 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 2: Production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel 465 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: Finnegan Wright, and our production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl. 466 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw. 467 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 2: At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and 468 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent. 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