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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We're heading

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Speaker 2: on down into the Vault for an older episode of

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Speaker 2: the show. This is part one of our series on

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Speaker 2: the supernatural cats of Japanese myth and legend, published originally

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Speaker 2: on October seventeenth, twenty twenty three. We hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, And the month of

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Speaker 2: October continues. The Monster Ooze flows on Rob and I

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Speaker 2: were out last week, and in our absence we featured

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Speaker 2: a couple of Vault episodes from the previous October about

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Speaker 2: the Great he Goat, in which we discussed go as animals,

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Speaker 2: as biological entities, and as symbols, and got into the

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Speaker 2: question of why goats have come to be associated with

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Speaker 2: strange forces and demonic powers, especially in a Western Christian

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Speaker 2: cultural context. Today, we wanted to begin an October themed

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Speaker 2: series in that same vein looking at a different liminal beast,

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Speaker 2: not the Christian imagery of the Grand Goat presiding over

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Speaker 2: the witches sabbath, but Japanese stories about the ghostly eminence

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Speaker 2: of altered cats.

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Speaker 1: That's right, we're talking about the common house cat, the

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Speaker 1: domesticated if you want to use that word cat. That

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Speaker 1: plays a central role in many of our households. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: instead of yeah, when it comes to Halloween, the cat

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Speaker 1: has become an icon of the season, especially the black cat,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of that is depending on the Western

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Speaker 1: traditions and Western superstitions, which we're probably not going to

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Speaker 1: get into in this series, but that's informing a lot

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Speaker 1: of that imagery that we're seeing in the West.

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Speaker 2: The cat as witch is familiar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, cat as which is familiar, and then just sort

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Speaker 1: of generally cat hanging out looking a little bit creepy.

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Speaker 1: Has a nice silhouette to use in various Halloween backgrounds. Though,

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Speaker 1: of course, like the goat, the cat as an organism

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Speaker 1: doesn't really care about trick or treating. It doesn't really

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Speaker 1: care about seances and Satanic rites or whatever you have

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Speaker 1: stirred up in your imagination. They have different needs, but

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Speaker 1: they live in close proximity to us. So yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be focusing on the various supernatural treatments of this

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Speaker 1: animal in Japanese traditions and rob.

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Speaker 2: I have to admit, before you picked this topic and

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Speaker 2: I started looking into it, I was not familiar with

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Speaker 2: how many Japanese monster cats there were, how many cat

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Speaker 2: yo kai, and how many specifically cat oriented Japanese horror

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Speaker 2: movies from the mid century there were.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I mean when you stop to think

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Speaker 1: of them, they start jumping out at you. I guess

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Speaker 1: part of it is I think we all know that

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Speaker 1: cats are popular in Japan. If you're even a casual

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Speaker 1: consumer of Japanese pop culture, then you've probably seen various

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Speaker 1: cute cat videos from Japan. You've seen, oh, I guess

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Speaker 1: some of the major stars include Hello Kitty, There's the

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Speaker 1: talking cat Gigi, and Miyazaki's nineteen eighty nine film Kiki's

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Speaker 1: Delivery Service. There's that blue robot cat. I'm not actually

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Speaker 1: sure how to say its name, Doriman. I believe I'm

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Speaker 1: not super familiar with him. But yeah, on top of that,

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Speaker 1: you have luck cats, you have just all sorts of

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Speaker 1: cat imagery, and yes, you also have various horror movies

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Speaker 1: and horror stories that entail the cat but prior to

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Speaker 1: researching this, yeah, I think I would have maybe identified

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Speaker 1: two cat based yokai or cat based Japanese traditional monsters.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that there were enough to fill a

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Speaker 1: couple of episodes with.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, I also just remember the cat bus.

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Speaker 1: Oh goodness, yes, the cat bus from my neighbor Totoro. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: another iconic cat. And you know, even Totoro has varia.

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Speaker 1: You could you could say that he has some cat

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Speaker 1: like features. I don't know. He's kind of a combination

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Speaker 1: of panda and bear and so many other things.

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Speaker 2: If a city had cat bus based transportation, would you

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Speaker 2: take it? Would you rely on that transportation?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The kids in Toto seem to dig it. It looks

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Speaker 1: soft and warm in there. You know, the whole lining

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Speaker 1: is like a cat's belly, except you won't be scratched

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Speaker 1: if you touch it.

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Speaker 2: I guess I'd be concerned about whether it's going to

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Speaker 2: take me to my destination or its own I don't know,

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Speaker 2: whatever it caters to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the cat bus does have that kind

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Speaker 1: of cheshire cat spirit to it, like what is it

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Speaker 1: going to do? And this gets to the heart of

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Speaker 1: like the spirit of the cat I mean, we could

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Speaker 1: go on and on with just you know, personal anecdotes

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Speaker 1: and also all sorts of sort of folk wisdom about

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Speaker 1: the differences between the dog and the cat. What is

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Speaker 1: it like living with a dog versus living with a cat?

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Speaker 1: What is it like encountering an unknown dog versus encountering

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Speaker 1: an unknown cat? There there are so many differences, but

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Speaker 1: definitely the cat has a unique spirit that can be challenging,

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Speaker 1: that can be inviting, that can be very comforting. There's

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Speaker 1: a there's really a broad spectrum of attitudes one ends

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Speaker 1: up having, even about the most beloved cat in your life.

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Speaker 2: So you're making the point that cats have a good

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Speaker 2: deal of cultural prominence in Japan, not just in their

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Speaker 2: monstrous forms, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, And but by exploring some of the monstrous forms,

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Speaker 1: you also get some insight into how and why they

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Speaker 1: were so admired and and are still admired to this day. Now,

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Speaker 1: in terms of sources here, I'm going to refer to.

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Speaker 1: There's an older book I have, Yokai Attack The Japanese

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Speaker 1: Monster's Survival Guide by Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt. That

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Speaker 1: one's really good, but also a couple of books I

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Speaker 1: picked up for this include Joshua Friedman's The Japanese Myths,

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Speaker 1: A Guide to God's Heroes and Spirits, and Zach Davison's

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Speaker 1: Kaidyo The Supernatural Cats of Japan.

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Speaker 2: So this is a book entirely on the altered cats.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this is a really good one. You can

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Speaker 1: find this wherever you get your books, and it has

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Speaker 1: just so many wonderful illustrations in it and stories. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna touch on some of the main points, but if

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Speaker 1: you want to deeper dive into the world of Japanese

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Speaker 1: supernatural cats, that's a book to pick up. Now, getting

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Speaker 1: back briefly just to the general idea of cats in Japan,

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Speaker 1: the domestic cat in Japan, I want to refer to

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Speaker 1: a recent New York Times article titled why do Cats

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Speaker 1: hold Such mythic power in Japan? By Hanya Yanagahara. The

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Speaker 1: author here points out that housecats are thought to have

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Speaker 1: first arrived in Japan during the sixth century CE, brought

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Speaker 1: in via the Silk Road as a curiosity from India

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Speaker 1: via China or possibly from Korea. I think they're just

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Speaker 1: different possible routes that cats may have taken. And at

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Speaker 1: that point, yanagahar points out that cats would have likely

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Speaker 1: enjoyed the split value that they enjoyed everywhere else they

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Speaker 1: traveled via human beings. They proved themselves an aid to

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Speaker 1: agricultural pursuits, feasting on rodents, and they were amusing. They're

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Speaker 1: amusing to look at, they're amusing to watch and to

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Speaker 1: try and figure out, and they can become quite affectionate,

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Speaker 1: especially if it serves their purposes.

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Speaker 2: Right, So cute and useful as an unbeatable combination.

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Speaker 1: Right, And as Zianagahara points out, Japan was both an

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Speaker 1: agricultural country and a court culture country as well, so

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Speaker 1: we can imagine the cat catching on at every level

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Speaker 1: of society. I see that.

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Speaker 2: So in the agricultural sense, the cat is useful because

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Speaker 2: you can have one around your grain supplies to keep

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Speaker 2: the rats out of it. But in the wealthy court setting,

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Speaker 2: it might be attractive to have a cat in your

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Speaker 2: lap or in your vicinity as a beautiful regal object

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Speaker 2: or companion.

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Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, well what the cat is here to

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Speaker 1: fulfill those needs either way again, if it wants to. Now.

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Speaker 1: Zach Davison in his book emphasizes a kind of court

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Speaker 1: first trajectory for cats, taking hold in Japan, and we

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Speaker 1: do have Heyan period descriptions of how wonderful cats were

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Speaker 1: and how much the emperors of the time period loved them.

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Speaker 1: But his populations grew, they were no longer confined to palaces,

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Speaker 1: and as they lost their regal and exotic air, more

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Speaker 1: attention was placed on their behaviors and legends than sprang

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Speaker 1: up about them, both rural and urban in nature. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course, I'm not sure if this is necessarily a

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Speaker 1: case where, you know, I always have to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's those accounts from the upper parts of society

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Speaker 1: that stand the test of time and it's not the

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Speaker 1: lives of people lower down the socioeconomic ladder. But this

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Speaker 1: sounds reasonable, right, I mean, as the cat coming in

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Speaker 1: as an exotic singularity, brought into the court, enjoyed in

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Speaker 1: the court. But over time, cats are going to reproduce,

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Speaker 1: the population is going to swell, and there's going to

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Speaker 1: be like a trickle down cat economy in a given country.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's a there's a cat sieve, and eventually the

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Speaker 2: cats make their way through to every corner of the country.

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Speaker 1: Now, another wrinkle in this that Davison points out is

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Speaker 1: that it can be a little difficult to pin down

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Speaker 1: exactly when written records are are are specifically talking about cats.

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Speaker 1: And this concerns something that's come up before on the

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Speaker 1: show concerning like novel animals in a given culture, and

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Speaker 1: that is that when it comes to the way that

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Speaker 1: animals were written about in ancient Japan, known animals had

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Speaker 1: unique kanji characters. New animals did not, and it sometimes

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Speaker 1: took centuries for them to get unique characters, so instead

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Speaker 1: you'd use other animal characters in their place. So Davison

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Speaker 1: points out that in ancient Japan, the same kanji character

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Speaker 1: designated both with tanuki and cat, so it was sometimes

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Speaker 1: sometimes difficult to look back at these writings and determine

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Speaker 1: exactly what animal is being described.

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Speaker 2: So in kind of the same way, you might imagine like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, early medieval European writings about seafaring, and

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Speaker 2: like you can't tell if they're trying to describe a

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Speaker 2: mythical sea monster or a real whale or some type

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Speaker 2: of fish. It's just a word that means like some

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Speaker 2: kind of creature that's clearly in the water, but other

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Speaker 2: than that, you're not sure what it's referring to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or how everything is a type of apple. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you can imagine where would be confusing going back

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out all this stuff. Now, so

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Speaker 1: in any rate, we can one way or another, cats

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Speaker 1: eventually really catch on. They're everywhere. One important date in

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Speaker 1: Japanese cat history this would be the year sixteen oh two.

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Speaker 1: This is the year, according to Davidson, that during which,

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Speaker 1: amidst a plague of rats destroying Japanese silkworm industry, the

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Speaker 1: Japanese government issues uneeditt release all domestic cats to battle

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Speaker 1: the rats, which maybe sounds a bit extreme, but they

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Speaker 1: apparently did it. They made it illegal to buy or

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Speaker 1: sell cats. Just release them, let them do their thing,

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Speaker 1: let them fight the good fight against the rats. However,

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Speaker 1: apparently it might not have actually helped much. It seems

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Speaker 1: like there's some writings that kind of dispute the idea

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Speaker 1: that this was really all about helpful Davidson. SHARE's a

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Speaker 1: quote that I've seen featured in numerous sources talking about

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Speaker 1: cats in Japan. This is from a character has come

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Speaker 1: up on the show before. I believe, a German doctor

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Speaker 1: visiting Japan during the period, doctor Ingelbert Kompher.

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Speaker 2: That name brings a bell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't remember the context what we were talking about,

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Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure he's come up before. But he

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Speaker 1: wrote there is only one breed of cat that is

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Speaker 1: kept in Japan. It's discussing here. It has large patches

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Speaker 1: of yellow, black and white fur. Its short tail looks

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Speaker 1: as if it has been bent and broken. It has

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Speaker 1: no mind to hunt for rats and mice, but just

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Speaker 1: wants to be carried and stroked by women, which I

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Speaker 1: think this could basically be applied to many cats in

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Speaker 1: our lives. This sounds a lot like my cat Mochi yellow,

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Speaker 1: black and white. Yeah. Yeah, And Calico just wants to

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Speaker 1: hang out generally with my wife and will occasionally hang

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Speaker 1: out with me if it's cold enough in the house,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't particularly want to chase anything around except me.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes she will attack my feet.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I just had to look it up

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Speaker 2: to see when Engelbert Campfer came up before. This was

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Speaker 2: another connection from the Vegetable Lamb of Tartary episode. He

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Speaker 2: had a theory apparently. I don't remember whether it was

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Speaker 2: more on track or more off track. I think it

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Speaker 2: was one of the off track ones.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now another interesting historical cat tib that comes up

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Speaker 1: in this book from Japan. In eighteen forty two, Emperor

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Speaker 1: Tatakuni instituted the Tenpo Reform, which sort of reined in

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Speaker 1: what could be presented in the arts, especially as a

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Speaker 1: concerned kobuki and geisha imagery. However, nowhere in the law

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Speaker 1: did it say you couldn't depict cats doing all of

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Speaker 1: these things. So artists of the day began to illustrate

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Speaker 1: drunken and cavorting cats like basically, you know, kabuki style

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Speaker 1: cat soap opera, which I love because this kind of

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Speaker 1: reminds me of the whole like nobody says a donkey

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Speaker 1: can't play football sort of thing, and also brings to

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Speaker 1: mind dogs playing poker.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, airbud rules apply. I love that.

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Speaker 1: Now. Friedman in his book writes the stories of cats

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Speaker 1: date back to at least as far as the Hayan

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Speaker 1: period seven ninety four through eleven eighty five see concerning

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Speaker 1: the cats kept by the Emperor By the fourteenth century.

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Speaker 1: Magical cats pop up in numerous works of art, in literature,

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Speaker 1: and of course they become central parts of Japanese folklore

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Speaker 1: in legend as well. In this episode, yeah, we're going

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Speaker 1: to provide an overview of these range cats, these kaibio,

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Speaker 1: the strange cats, supernatural cats. They have a number of

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Speaker 1: things in common, but they all have distinctive flavors, and

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Speaker 1: some of them are more threatening than others. Now, as

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Speaker 1: Figment points out, one of the main attributes you find

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Speaker 1: in various tales of strange magical cats in Japan is

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Speaker 1: that is the idea that, as with tales of magical foxes,

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Speaker 1: kaibyo are individual cats who have lived long enough to

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Speaker 1: acquire magical abilities and also, like fox spirits, grow multiple tales.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's an interesting comparison to the way the altered

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Speaker 2: foxes are treated in stories. Those commonalities. I was trying

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Speaker 2: to think, what is the difference between like a monstrous

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Speaker 2: altered fox and a monstrous altered cat. And in my view,

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Speaker 2: you know, the fox seems like it has the potential

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Speaker 2: to be more of a chaotic alignment, and so in

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Speaker 2: its bad form, it's kind of chaotic evil, whereas the

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Speaker 2: cat in its monstrous form. I don't know, cats can

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Speaker 2: be chaotic, and I know in some of these stories

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Speaker 2: they are, but it seems like more of a cold,

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Speaker 2: calculating evil to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's accurate. But it's also interesting to

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Speaker 1: think of this as in a situation where you have

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Speaker 1: superstitions concerning an animal that is native to Japan, the

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Speaker 1: red fox, and then when you bring in these animals

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Speaker 1: from outside, these domestic cats, something gets applied to them

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Speaker 1: that was previously applied to native organisms. We do need

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Speaker 1: to be clear that there is no such thing as

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Speaker 1: a domestic cat with more than one tail. There are, however,

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Speaker 1: two types of morphological mutations that affect the tail. There's

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Speaker 1: the Manx tailless gene, which can prove lethal, and then

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Speaker 1: there's the Japanese bobtail gene, in which the tail is

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Speaker 1: shortened and kinked, but otherwise doesn't seem to really impact health,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least, it doesn't entail skeletal issues

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Speaker 1: and or involve death with certain genotypes. The Japanese bobtail

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Speaker 1: gene is of course of no here, because, as the

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Speaker 1: name implies, it is native to Japan. It emerged there

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Speaker 1: in Japan's feline population, though it has since spread beyond

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Speaker 1: the limits of Japan. Now Here is an area though

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Speaker 1: that I want to stress that I wasn't able to

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Speaker 1: get like one hundred percent clarity on you for my

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Speaker 1: own research purposes, and that is the alleged practice of

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Speaker 1: bobbing or docking cat tales in Japan. I couldn't find

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Speaker 1: many solid contemporary references to this, though Friedman mentions it

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Speaker 1: in passing, and there's a lot of dismissal of the

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Speaker 1: idea as a myth in general. So, on one hand,

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Speaker 1: the Japanese bobtail variant was at one point considered lucky,

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Speaker 1: and Friedman indicates that this could have influenced a tail

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Speaker 1: docking practice, some practice by which the tales of domestic

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Speaker 1: cats are removed, though he also writes with uncertainty about

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Speaker 1: exactly how superstition, mutilation and genetic mutation would have been

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Speaker 1: intertwined here. You know, because if this was taking place

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Speaker 1: to any degree, you know, you asked them. You can

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Speaker 1: easily ask the question, well, is it because of superstition?

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Speaker 1: Is it because of the genetic mutation that was already there?

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Speaker 1: And you know, to and to what extent these things

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Speaker 1: are interplaying with each other. Now, tail bobbing of different

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Speaker 1: forms does seem to come up in historic foreign writings

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Speaker 1: on Japan, including a nineteen oh six letter by Greek

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Speaker 1: writer Lefacadio Hearn, who mentions kittens having their tails cut

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Speaker 1: off so that they don't grow up to become a

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Speaker 1: monster cat of one sort or the other. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the obvious situation with this is you're dealing with with

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Speaker 1: outsiders who are then you know, you're dealing with possible

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Speaker 1: translation errors. You're dealing with them having to, you know,

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Speaker 1: perhaps make sense of local lore concerning a genetic mutation

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Speaker 1: that's not completely understood and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Or just making assumptions about things they've observed without understanding

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Speaker 2: key elements. Like you could imagine a scenario where somebody

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Speaker 2: observes a place where there is a genetic mutation that

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Speaker 2: creates bobtailcats, and they assume people cut off the tales.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because, as we've we're very mentioned, apparently the bobtailed

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Speaker 1: effect does kind of look like you can easily look

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Speaker 1: at it and think, oh, well, something bad happened to

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Speaker 1: that animal's tale, et cetera. Now, a legend that I've

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Speaker 1: seen mentioned in multiple texts is that the original bobtail

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Speaker 1: cat lost its tail when it caught fire, causing it

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Speaker 1: to run about and catch a whole town on fire,

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Speaker 1: resulting in an imperial decree cats should not have tales

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Speaker 1: because they are fire hazards. This is obviously not true,

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Speaker 1: but it does illustrate there's a lot of room for

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Speaker 1: just so stories here. You know, some sort of story

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Speaker 1: that is obviously fictional and legendary, but it is is

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Speaker 1: providing some sort of an origin story for something in

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Speaker 1: nature that is not completely understood. Yeah. So, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: plenty of room for translationaire foreign misinterpretation, and more. I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course, on the other hand, we have to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that cosmetic utilation of dogs and cats is nothing new

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Speaker 1: and can be found in various cultures. With cats, there's

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Speaker 1: the example of decline, which had been widespread in the

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Speaker 1: US and Canada in prior decades and generally entails more

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Speaker 1: than the removal of the clock self, but like the

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Speaker 1: end of the digit on each claw finger. And then

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Speaker 1: tail docking and ear cropping was widespread and has now

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Speaker 1: banded many countries with dogs. I mentioned all of this

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Speaker 1: just for added context and the consideration of potential historic

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Speaker 1: tail docking. But again, there seems plenty of evidence to

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Speaker 1: consider a mutation the primary cause here.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so question marks about the extent to which tail

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Speaker 2: docking was a real historical practice. But one thing we

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Speaker 2: know for sure is that there are lots of stories

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Speaker 2: of monster cats with weird tales.

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Speaker 1: That's right, yes, And so the first one we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about here is the nikomata. These are cats

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Speaker 1: that are said to have lived for a hundred years.

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Speaker 1: And what happens when you live to be one hundred

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Speaker 1: years and you're a cat according to these traditions and superstitions,

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Speaker 1: Well you get a second tale. The first tale splits

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Speaker 1: in half, and now there are two tails, and other

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Speaker 1: changes occur as well. Suddenly this cat has a craving

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Speaker 1: for human flesh. They grow to to be the size

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Speaker 1: of a large dog or a wolf. They may walk

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Speaker 1: on two legs, and thus at this point they are

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Speaker 1: no longer a domestic cat, a cat of the natural world.

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Speaker 1: They have become a feline yokai. According to Davidson, the

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Speaker 1: fourteenth century work Essays and Idleness tells the story of

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Speaker 1: a man who thinks himself pursued through the night by

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Speaker 1: a nikomata, but it turns out to be his own dog.

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Speaker 1: The creature was written about during the Edo period, this

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Speaker 1: is the golden age of yokai lore, but Davison stresses

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Speaker 1: that the roots of the Nikomata go back centuries earlier. So,

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Speaker 1: according to Davison, some versions of the Nikomata may date

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Speaker 1: back to Chinese traditions in the short lived Sai dynasty

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Speaker 1: five eighty one through six eighteen CE, and then written

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Speaker 1: about in Japan at least by the Kamakura period that's

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Speaker 1: eleven eighty five through thirteen thirty three. But the accounts

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Speaker 1: were not really of a supernatural cat yet, but rather

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Speaker 1: of a large tiger or lion like predatory animal that

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Speaker 1: lived in the mountains. You know. The situation was like,

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Speaker 1: don't you know, be careful if you go off into

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Speaker 1: the wilderness because that is where the nikomata lives. Attacks

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Speaker 1: of this creature were apparently reported as just fact. This

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Speaker 1: was not something legendary. It was just something that might

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Speaker 1: happen to you if you were unlucky in the wilderness. Oh.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me of the dad taking his kid to

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Speaker 2: see aliens, saying, no, he needs to see this because

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Speaker 2: he needs to know things like this can happen in

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Now. Davison writes that there are different speculations

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Speaker 1: about what this could all be about. There's at least

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Speaker 1: one idea that it could be evidence of a surviving,

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Speaker 1: perhaps prehistoric variety of yemen eco or leopard cat, so

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially like some sort of at the time

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Speaker 1: surviving a large predatory cat. There Also, he also brings

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Speaker 1: up the idea that well, tigers were brought in as

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Speaker 1: curiosities during this time, perhaps one escaped and was living

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Speaker 1: in the forest and had attacked people. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: easily one of those situations where if you just have

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Speaker 1: one tiger attack occur like this, it's enough to leave

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Speaker 1: an imprint in folklore. And then another idea that's perhaps

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Speaker 1: more compelling is that these could be sort of enhanced

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Speaker 1: accounts of rabid animal attacks. So rabies could essentially be

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Speaker 1: what is it.

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Speaker 2: The heart of these stories that would make sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, we have these stories from the wilderness

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Speaker 1: of some sort of large nicomata cat, and then during

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Speaker 1: the Edo period we see this legend intensified. So Davison

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Speaker 1: writes that the cats get larger, they get more fierce

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Speaker 1: in the stories, but then they're transformed into into not

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Speaker 1: a distinct species, but is a power upgrade to just

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Speaker 1: the common domestic cat. Again, it gets old enough, the

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Speaker 1: tail splits, and now you have a different creature on

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Speaker 1: your hands, and its appetites, its desires, it's cunning are

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Speaker 1: something entirely new.

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Speaker 2: At that point, this touches on something interesting because I'm

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Speaker 2: I got interested in the idea of the nekomada being

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Speaker 2: a thing that is created when a cat reaches a

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Speaker 2: sufficient age. And so here I want to turn to

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Speaker 2: notes from a book that I've referred to on the

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Speaker 2: podcast before called The Book of Yokai by an Indiana

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Speaker 2: University folklore scholar named Michael Dylan Foster. And there was

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Speaker 2: a section of the book that I thought was really

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Speaker 2: interesting because it was originally looking at it just because

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Speaker 2: it had a glancing mention of yokai stories about cats,

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Speaker 2: but actually it got to a broader theme about the

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Speaker 2: significance of the number one hundred in Japanese spooky storytelling.

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Speaker 2: So the book is talking about a historical tradition known

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Speaker 2: as the hayaku monogatari, which is a Japanese tradition of

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Speaker 2: gatherings where people would come together to trade stories of

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Speaker 2: the weird and uncanny in the hopes of actually inducing

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Speaker 2: a supernatural experience through the storytelling.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's wise.

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Speaker 2: I agree. I think, yeah, that's a great plan. I

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Speaker 2: would love to go to one of these.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

434
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: So it works like this. People would gather by night

435
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: in a room or maybe in like a he says,

436
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: in like a semi public place, a room, a gathering place,

437
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: a temple, maybe in a place lit by candles or lanterns,

438
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 2: and the people gathered would take turns recounting tales of

439
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: ghosts or yokai. And after each story was finished, I

440
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: think the stories would be fairly short. After each story

441
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 2: was over, one of the lanterns or candles would be

442
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: snuffed out until you keep getting fewer and fewer lights.

443
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 2: And then after the final tale ends and the final

444
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: flame is extinguished, that would leave their room completely dark,

445
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: at which point the people in attendance might get to

446
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: see a real yokai in the darkness.

447
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: Ooh, I like it. I mean, and again, this is wise,

448
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: because if you want to prime yourself for having a

449
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: supernatural encounter, there's no better way than to lower the

450
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: lights and start recounting strange tales.

451
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 2: If you build it, they will come.

452
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

453
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: So the book quotes a late seventeenth century Buddhist priest

454
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: and author named Assai Rioi, who writes quote it is

455
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: said that when you collect and tell one hundred stories

456
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: of scary or strange things that have been passed down

457
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: since long ago, some scary or strange is certain to occur,

458
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: so tell one hundred stories about it. Make it happen

459
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: for real.

460
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: Oh I like this, and Foster.

461
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 2: Says this was probably not always understood as a literal

462
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: threshold of exactly one hundred stories, even though that is

463
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: literally what Hayaku monogatari means. But in practice it probably

464
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 2: just means a lot of stories. And you can tell

465
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: this because some of the Hayaku monogatari collections have fewer

466
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: than one hundred stories in them, so you know, this

467
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: probably doesn't actually need to be literally one hundred. On

468
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 2: the other hand, he relates this to other Japanese tales

469
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: of the magical and uncanny, in which the number one

470
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: hundred has special properties. For example, a subject that we

471
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 2: have done an episode about on stuff to blow your

472
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: mind before the sukumogami, which are these inanimate household objects,

473
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: you know, hammers, dinnerwares, brooms, objects from the house that

474
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:09,239
Speaker 2: transform into magical, animate sentient beings when they turn The

475
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: Age of one hundred.

476
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: I remember this, yeh seeing up with like a parade

477
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: of bewitched old.

478
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: Things exactly, And I remember we talked about one famous

479
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: story where I think they all get converted to a

480
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: specific branch of Buddhism at the end.

481
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes.

482
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: But as another example of the transformative power of the

483
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: number one hundred in some Japanese stories, Foster writes that

484
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: it was sometimes said that an ordinary animal that had

485
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: reached the age of one hundred would undergo a magical

486
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: metamorphosis and become a yokai. And these animals could include foxes,

487
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 2: could include tanuki, and yes, also cats. And so coming

488
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: back to your comment earlier, Rob, that cats that reach

489
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: a sufficient age could transform into some type of altered

490
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: cat or supernatural cat yokai like a nekomata. You apparently

491
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: have to watch out for those ninety nine year old cats.

492
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: They are just biding their time until the birthday and

493
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: then they have the power.

494
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right up until ninety nine decent, you know,

495
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 1: probably household cat, but one hundred years old. Watch out now,

496
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: they're a menace. Now.

497
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: I think there are also stories where cats reach a

498
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: certain age and become transformed or dangerous in some way,

499
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: and the number is not exactly one hundred. But I

500
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: do think it's interesting that there is a recurring theme

501
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: about the number one hundred across these different stories. You know,

502
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: for some reason, this is the number after which things

503
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: get weird. Now, I just want to mention what Foster

504
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: says directly about the nekomata as a yokai type. He

505
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: says that many written accounts of nekomata describe them as

506
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: monstrously large cats living in the wilderness, in mountains and forests,

507
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: but sometimes also found in human settlements. But the idea

508
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: of locating the mountain the mountains and forests that kind

509
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: of goes along with what you were saying about, the

510
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: idea that these could go back to stories of like

511
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 2: a wild animal that is occupying a place and is dangerous.

512
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: That's right. And I should also mention that Davidson a

513
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: belief stresses that the sort of rural version of the

514
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: nkamata as this wild large mountain cat that isn't necessarily

515
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: connected to domestic cats that still remained a folk belief

516
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: out in the wilds or on the borders of the wild.

517
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: But then you get this new version of the nkomata

518
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: that is more urban and based more on the domestic

519
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: house cat.

520
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: This might actually be going back to the same source

521
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 2: referenced in the book you were talking about, but at

522
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: least Foster talks about an early story of the nakamata

523
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: appearing in the literature from twelve thirty three, and it

524
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: is described in this source as a creature with the

525
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: eyes of a cat but the body of a huge dog.

526
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: And I think that that's a striking combination that kind

527
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: of sets the mind racing, not only because it has

528
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: this classic recipe of monster creation, which is combining different

529
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: attributes of different animals, you know, using sort of the

530
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: the mixing and matching power of the human mind to

531
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, potato head up different different predator features.

532
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: But I think it's interesting that you're taking the eyes

533
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: of a cat and the body of a dog, so

534
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: the physical power of a big dog, and as scary

535
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: as cats can be sometimes if you're talking about domestic animals,

536
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: it's you know, you can understand why you might be

537
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: more physically intimidated by a big dog than by a

538
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: house cat, but without the dog's sweet and subservient nature,

539
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: you instead bring in the eyes. And of course with

540
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: the eyes, we equate eyes to minds. And so if

541
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: you're putting the mind of a cat in the body

542
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: of a big, powerful dog, it's like the uncontrollable and

543
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: a moral will to power of a cat in the

544
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: body of a dog that could really harm you. Yes, yes,

545
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: And as you mentioned, Robin, these early stories, and in

546
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: this one, the nekomata eats seven or eight people in

547
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: a single night.

548
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: That's too many. You know that that nikomata is just

549
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: going to barf up most of those people, and then

550
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: someone's gonna have to clean it up.

551
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: He's gonna barf up six of those people in your shoes.

552
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: Right, and then it's going to look at me like, hey,

553
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm still hungry. I don't know why I'm hungry. I

554
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: need help.

555
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: And then finally, I just wanted to quote from part

556
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: of a paragraph Foster has here because he's writing about

557
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: a Japanese source that has illustrations of nekomata. So Foster writes, quote,

558
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: Toriyama Sekian illustrates a nekamata in his first catalog. It

559
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: stands on two legs on the outer veranda of a

560
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: house with a small towel on its head. Another cat,

561
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: presumably not a yokai, sits on the ground below it,

562
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: while a third seems to be looking out from inside

563
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: the house. Although Sekian does not explain anything here, the

564
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: nekamata is portrayed as betwixt and between the human and

565
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: natural worlds. It is wild, but wears a towel on

566
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: its head, stands on two legs like a person, and

567
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: is perched literally on the outer edge of a human habitation,

568
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: with one cat outside, possibly feral, behind it, and another inside,

569
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 2: possibly domestic, in front of it.

570
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean again, like all

571
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: of these these examples are looking at you know, they're

572
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: touching on the superstition and the you know, the mythic

573
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: and folkloric world, but they're also commenting on like a

574
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: lot of time spent with cats trying to figure them out,

575
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, how they're they're domesticated, but they're still wild,

576
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: like they are suspended between worlds.

577
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. I don't know the mind

578
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: of the illustrator here, but this seems like it could

579
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: be providing some rather nuanced analysis. But with this kind

580
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: of drawing, like commenting on the nature of the cat

581
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: as a pet or as a domestic animal, that it's

582
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: only partly part of our world. And also, I like

583
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: the implied threat of the nearness of the known, normal,

584
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: mundane cats to this monstrous cat that you know what

585
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: I mean, like kind of like placing them beside one

586
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: another is almost like, you know, watch out for the

587
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: nature of the cat.

588
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: You think, you know, yeah, because the just normal housecat

589
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: knows that they are a nikamata out there and just

590
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: doesn't care. It's like, yeah, this is just how it

591
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: is now, I do. Really, I'm glad you brought up

592
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: the towel on the head because that is important when

593
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: considering the next example we're going to talk about here,

594
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: and that is the back and echo the shape shifting cat.

595
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: So in this case you get even more advanced age

596
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: numerous tales, and it grants them the ability to change

597
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: their form and interfere directly in human affairs. So not

598
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: just scratches, you know, not just messing up furniture, attacking

599
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: feet and so forth, not just merely eating people after

600
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: you turn into a giant cat, a giant monster cat,

601
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: but actually taking on a human form and directly interfering

602
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: in the human world, sometimes helping humans, sometimes hunting them

603
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: for sport. Again, they're just like the domestic cat in spirit.

604
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: They're completely immoral. They may be helpful, they may be sweet.

605
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: It depends on what they want now Davison and discussing

606
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: the becan Nico writes that they were said to, in

607
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: their cat form, dance on their hind legs and wear

608
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: towels on their heads. This account, he says, apparently spawned

609
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: from a story about a soy sauce merchant who kept

610
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: finding his towels in disarray and then hid one night

611
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: to see what was happening. What's happening to my towels

612
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: at night, and what was happening while cats were coming

613
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,479
Speaker 1: in wearing the towels on their head and dancing around

614
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: on their hind legs, you know, And he was horrified.

615
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: I don't remember, perhaps eaten at the end. But apparently

616
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: this is a magical trope in Japanese folklore, an animal

617
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: puts something on its head, like with the tanuki. The

618
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: tanuki will put leaves on its head and this helps

619
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: activate magical powers. He also adds here that some traditions

620
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: describe bacanniko's as humans who can turn into cats and toms.

621
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes the story is that if a cat drinks the

622
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: blood of a murder victim, they will transform into a

623
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: bacca niko, taking the shape of the victim in order

624
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: to seek vengeance.

625
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this appears to be a major plot point

626
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: in a movie I was looking at because Foster mentions

627
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: it in his right up on the Bakan Echo. But

628
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 2: there is a movie from nineteen sixty nine directed by

629
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: Tanaka Tokuzo called The Haunted Castle, and it has exactly

630
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 2: this plot. I think there is an evil landlord and

631
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: woman who is wronged by this evil landlord and she

632
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 2: ends up I believe, killing herself or somehow and letting

633
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: a cat drink her bloo blood, and this transforms the

634
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: cat into a into a creature, a monster of vengeance

635
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: that goes and attacks the man who is oppressing her.

636
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: Nice nice. I was looking. I noticed there's a nineteen

637
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: sixty eight film called Becky Nko a Vengeful Spirit, which

638
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: looks like it maybe has a similar plot and will come.

639
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's an interesting area where we're already

640
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: touching on here, this connection between living domestic cats and

641
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: deceased human beings. Essentially, we're getting into the realm of

642
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: post mortem predation, in which an animal in this case

643
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: a cat, a pet animal will drink the blood or

644
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 1: consume some of the flesh of someone who has died.

645
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: If someone in the house has died, even a you know,

646
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: an owner who loved that animal in life. Well, still

647
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: your pet is an animal, and they may have a

648
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: little to eat. It's just how it goes. It's a

649
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: known fact, a known reality of having pets. But it

650
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: also up leading to various supernatural interpretations, this connection between

651
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: in this case the cat and the dead. So again,

652
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: more on that later, but in terms of just sort

653
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: of like a general possible origin story for this idea

654
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: of cats taking on human form, Davidson shares shares this idea. Okay,

655
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: you have oil lamps at the time that are being

656
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: used to illuminate homes in the dark. Fish oil is

657
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: used in these lamps. Cats want some of that fish oil,

658
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: and so they will stand on their hind legs and

659
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: try to access the fish oil in the lamps, which

660
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: in turn casts strange shadows on the wall. And this

661
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: you can combine, this can combine this with other sort

662
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: of uncanny aspects of the cat. You know, their vocalizations

663
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: that certainly can sometimes sound almost human, almost like a

664
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: baby or something, or like they're trying to intone something,

665
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: as well as just all the other you know, very

666
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: suspect things that cats are doing on just a regular

667
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 1: daily basis. I mean, just generally speaking, I will say

668
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: that you know, when you see, just anecdotally, when you

669
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: see a cat standing on its hind legs, yeah, which

670
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: they can do. They can't rear up if they want to,

671
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: if they need to see over something, et cetera. It

672
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: is a little weird because suddenly they're bipedal. Suddenly they are.

673
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: It's like they're taking on a different form. And cats

674
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: can move their bodies in so many different ways that yeah,

675
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: they like we've discussed in the show before, they can

676
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: almost seem fluid. They can it can feel like they

677
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: are changing their shape in a way that is not

678
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: tethered to some skeletal or muscular form, or at least

679
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,479
Speaker 1: not one like we're used to considering with a human

680
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: being or even like a dog.

681
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: Now, regarding bipedal imagery of monster cats from Japan, I

682
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: hate to bring the Internet into this, but I found

683
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: what struck me as a substantial meme incursion onto my

684
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: processing of antique Japanese. All right, there's a picture that

685
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: is up on the wiki for this creature. For the

686
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: Buckan echo comes from an eighteenth century imachi or picture

687
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: scroll by the Japanese painter and poet Yosa Busan. This

688
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: painting is called the Bacan Echo of the Sasakibara family,

689
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: and it depicts a monster cat in a bizarre bipedal

690
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: posture with four legs spread out kind of like shrugging

691
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: arms like what do you want from me? Of course,

692
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: a towel on the cat's head, sort of a napkin

693
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: hanging off the back of the cat's head behind the ears,

694
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: and a facial expression that is equal parts menace and

695
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: goof sole. And as soon as I saw it, I thought,

696
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: oh my god, it's the cat from the woman yelling

697
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: at cat meme, just a chaotic, confused goblin spirit in

698
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: the most fundamentally feline way possible.

699
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: No, this is solid, yes, And in fact, after you

700
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: mentioned this, I was like, I wonder, I wonder if

701
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: anyone has transformed this, given the popularity of that meme,

702
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: And sure enough I found somebody on Etsy who has

703
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: created like a like a traditional looking Japanese two panel image,

704
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: all of the encounter where you have where you have

705
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: the there's the there're the two women, one is yelling,

706
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: and then there is the cat seated at a table

707
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: behind this plate with some vegetables on it. And you know,

708
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: I think it is almost impossible to consider many of

709
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: these classic Japanese cat illustrations without comparing them to cat memes,

710
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: in large part because the images are so good at

711
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: capturing the essence of the cat. Yeah, I mean that

712
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: the memes do. I mean, one of the reasons that

713
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: meme has has has resonated so strongly is that, yeah,

714
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean that the cat part of it feels very

715
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: on brand. And you see this in some of the

716
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: older illustrations of cats in Japan as well. There's a

717
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: great nineteenth century illustration of cats in various positions by

718
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: Utagawa Kunayoshi, and this one is worth looking up because

719
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: it features I found, mostly naturalistic depictions of cats, and

720
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: they're like, you know, at least a few dozen of these,

721
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: but then there are also some unnatural or even supernatural

722
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: ones as well, Like if you look around closely at

723
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 1: this Joe included it for you. You'll see one one cat

724
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: with a towel on its head with kind of like

725
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: zombie arms up. There are some other cats that are

726
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: doing things of that nature. And then also cats just

727
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: doing normal cat things.

728
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: Yep, just like snoozing in a basket, sleeping, chewing on

729
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: a dead squid. Is that what I'm looking at?

730
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, dragging a big dead squid. That one, Like, the

731
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: squid is so big there, it makes me me wonder.

732
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, and then other you just see cats interacting

733
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: with each other. And of course cats as a loaf

734
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: with their their legs tucked in underneath them, curled up

735
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: in a circle, you know, all the various forms of

736
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: the cat that we're accustomed to. You know, we're novel then,

737
00:41:54,120 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: just as their novel. Now, all right, I have one

738
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: more area concerning the back of EKO. I want to

739
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: touch on here though, just in the event that you're

740
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: listening with small children, maybe maybe skip this part and

741
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: come back later, just just because it is maybe a

742
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: little more mature in themes compared to what we've discussed

743
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: so far. So fair warning. Okay, now that you've had

744
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: a chance to leave, I want to just add a

745
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: word here about back and Niko prostitutes. So during the

746
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: this is this is covered in Davison. During the Edo period,

747
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: kiboshi or yellow books spring up as a kind of

748
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 1: he describes as kind of like a penny dreadful literary

749
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: genre of the day. You know, this is literature that

750
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: is just appealing to to very base interests. And they

751
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: included these guide books to the pleasure districts. In these

752
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: guide books included mentions of actual places, actual people, but

753
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: also in human entities one might encounter, namely back in

754
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: eco prostitutes. They would otherwise just look like a normal

755
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: human prostitute, but their shadow would eventually give them away

756
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: as a shape shifting cat. Coming back to perhaps to

757
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: that idea of the strange cat reaching up towards the lamplight.

758
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: Now a major inspiration for this idea, he writes, was

759
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: an Edo period tale of such a being working in

760
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: a particular district, and it's soon caught on in written.

761
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: In visual storytelling, and eventually you have various embellishments that

762
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: are made either for telling a good story or for

763
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: creating a compelling image. One of these is that there

764
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: may be discarded fish around the bedroom, or even a

765
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: discarded human arm because again, it is not a human being.

766
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: It is a cat monster that is consuming human victims. Now,

767
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: initially this is just a tale of horror, you know,

768
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: kind of a watch out for the monsters in disguise

769
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: out there in the shadowy world at night. But Davison

770
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: rise that it eventually becomes this kind of fun visual fad.

771
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: There's an eighteenth century illustration that he shares in the

772
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: book of a samurai walking hand in hand with one

773
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 1: of these back in Niko. But it has a cat's head.

774
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: It just looks like it's like a full furry in

775
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: this illustration, and they're just kind of like, okay, we're

776
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: out in the open with this. Now I have a

777
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: relationship with a catwoman, and it's a okay. He also

778
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: writes that this idea was even eventually embraced by women

779
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: working in the pleasure district, so accentuating their names or

780
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: and or keeping a cat in order to play up

781
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 1: the idea that they might be something other than human.

782
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: Oh so like playing with these cat themes for fun,

783
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: or that there was some kind of power in it.

784
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: Man, I'm guessing both, you know. It sounds like it

785
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: could be both. On one hand, Yeah, like superstition becoming

786
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: fetish after a while. But also yeah, there is this

787
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 1: idea of the the Bakan echo woman. Is this vengeful thing,

788
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: this thing that will you know, to destroy these these men,

789
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: and so you could see it being embraced on that

790
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: level as well. Now Davison doesn't go into that so much,

791
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: but mentions that some commentators have tried to establish a

792
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: connection here between the folk tale and a general prohibition

793
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: at the time against courtisans eating in the print in

794
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: the presence of men eating in the presence of their clients,

795
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: in this case forcing them to sneak snacks in a

796
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: hunched over cat like posture. I'm I don't know, maybe

797
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 1: this is true. I don't know. I have a hard

798
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: time sort of buying into this in my own mind.

799
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: But but he mentions it, so I think a number

800
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: of commentators have made this connection, and then a broader connection,

801
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: he says, you can looking in the other direction, moving

802
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: forward towards modern times, there's like a general catgirl trope

803
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: in Japanese pop culture of today that is, you know,

804
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: not directly related to these examples, but like you just

805
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: see like this idea of the cat human hybrid the

806
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: female cat person as being this this motif that is

807
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: echoed throughout throughout the decades and throughout different forms of media,

808
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: and for that matter, one that we find throughout the

809
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: world as well. I mean, like, as far as I know,

810
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: Catwoman from the Batman franchise is not directly connected to

811
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: any motifs from say, Japanese culture. There is perhaps just

812
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: some connection to be made between I don't know, stereotypical

813
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: images of the feminine form and the cat I don't

814
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: know there. I'm sure there's someone has written extensively on

815
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: this from a larger global perspective.

816
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well in a Western context. I mean, I

817
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 2: think the classic nineteen forty two American horror movie Cat People,

818
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: which has a it has a catwoman in it and

819
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 2: is used to great spooky effect.

820
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: I didn't see that one. I think. I think when

821
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: the movie man came around, the movie man said, hey,

822
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: would you like to see cat People or would you

823
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: like to see Sleepwalkers from nineteen ninety two from the

824
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: mind of Stephen King, And I said, oh, I like

825
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: Stephen King, Let's watch Sleepwalkers, which has cats in it.

826
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't remember if the monster people are also cat people.

827
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: In that they're sort of cat people. It is a

828
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 2: movie about I think, sort of incestuous mother son monster

829
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: couple who can sort of morph into cats and have

830
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: cat powers and can I think, turn invisible and have

831
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: super strength. And they go around, I don't know, like

832
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 2: drinking young women's souls or something, and the only way

833
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: they can be defeated is by house cats. Like cats

834
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: chase them around and if they get if the cats

835
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: get to them, the cats can defeat them, but nothing

836
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:00,240
Speaker 2: else can.

837
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: Yep. That's about how I remember it. Yeah, I haven't

838
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 1: seen it in forever though it has a great cast,

839
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: solid director too.

840
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 2: Somebody in it gets murdered with a corn cob. I

841
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: think maybe Ron Pearlman gets stabbed with a corn cob.

842
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,240
Speaker 1: Oh man, I do not remember that part.

843
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a different guy who gets corn cobbed. I

844
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: don't know.

845
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just did a search for Ron Pearlman corn

846
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: cob death scene and nothing came up. So maybe it

847
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: just hasn't been embraced online.

848
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: And I know somebody gets killed with the corn cob.

849
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 2: I'm not making that up. Listeners who have seen Sleepwalkers

850
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: recently right in improved me Right.

851
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: All right? And as we close out this episode, it's

852
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: in general right in. If you have insight and additions

853
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: on anything we've discussed here, we would love to hear from.

854
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: You, but we will be back with more in part two.

855
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: That's right now. Before we close out here, I do

856
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: have a couple of extra matters to highlight. If you're

857
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: on social media, i'd have noticed that we have new

858
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: host photos for Stuff to Blow Your Mind if you

859
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: haven't seen them, run by our recently revived social media presences,

860
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: all linked off of Stuff to Blow Yourmind dot com.

861
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: We are st b ym podcast on Instagram now and

862
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: you can check out these new photos if you're wondering

863
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: where were these photos taken? Well, Joe and I visited

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00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: the Museum of Illusions Atlanta, a delightful and educational attraction

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00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: located in Atlantic Station here in Atlanta. They feature a

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00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: whole host of visual illusions, including illusion rooms you can

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Speaker 1: walk into and interact with, and that includes taking your

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Speaker 1: own selfies there. Joe, do you remember that room we

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00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: went into where depending on where you stood, we could

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00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 1: change how big you looked and how small I looked

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00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: on the on the screen.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's a great place to play. I'm the

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00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: big one now to just take turns going from corner

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00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: to corner. And yeah, this place is a lot of fun.

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00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: They've got They've got a ton of great illusions to showcase.

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited about taking the baby.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Fun for all ages. And you can learn

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00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: more about Museum of Illusions Atlanta ATMI Atlanta dot com. Also, hey,

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00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: it's like we've been hitting here. It's Halloween season. If

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00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 1: you are looking to pick up some Stuff to Blow

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00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: your Mind merchandise, well, we have a new shirt available

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00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: for the Halloween season. It's our occult Stuff to Blow

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00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: Your Mind logo shirt. You can find that over it's

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00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,479
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. You can click

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00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: on the store tab There. You'll also find images of

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00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: this shirt and links on our social media. Just a

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00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: reminder to everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your

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00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: Mind is primarily a science podcast, with core episodes publishing

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00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we do a listener

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00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: mail episode. On Wednesdays we usually do a monster fact

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00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: or artifact episode that's short form, and then on Fridays

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00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about

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00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: a weird film on a Weird House Cinema.

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00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, Jjposway. If you

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00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

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00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

897
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

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00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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