1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we've 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: got an episode from the vault. This is another crab episode. Uh, Rob, 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: you have titled it Crab content is king. I don't 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: even remember what this was, but it had to be good. 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: This was from last year where we had just done 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: a two parter on crabs eating things. And when we said, 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: you know what, let's have more crabs. Crabs are still 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: eating things or doing other crab like things. Let's honor 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: the crabs with a third episode. That's right, we did 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: as we should have. So this originally published November. Here 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: it is Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey welcome to Stuff to Blow 14 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: and we're back from the break. We thought the best 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: way to jump right back in would be to do 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: more crabs. That's right. We had we'd just recently done 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: a couple of episodes about crabs eating strange things, and 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: we had some we had some crab run over anyway, 20 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: so we thought, well, what what's what better than to 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: go ahead and just jump right back in two more crabs. 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: Crab overflow. Did you happen to eat any crab over 23 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: the break rub? I went crabbing with my son and 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: my and my brother in law, um, and they did 25 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: catch crabs and they were excited about them. I ended 26 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: up not eating any of the crabs, just because I 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: don't know, I just wasn't feeling it. It's a lot 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: of work. Uh, you gotta be you gotta want it 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: so um. So I abstained from the consumption of crabs, 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: but I did get to observe some crabs. In my experience, 31 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: I feel like it's always kind of embarrassing to eat 32 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: a crab. You're just sitting there working on it, you know. 33 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: I guess it's all of the the intense concentration it 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: takes to like crack the pieces and stuff. You're not 35 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: really following the conversation of the tap able very well. 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: It's you're in your own world. Yeah, I mean, it 37 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: definitely is one of those activities that that puts you 38 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: in the It feels like you put you in an 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: archaic mindset. You know, you can imagine yourself, you know, 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, picking apart a carcass on some sort of 41 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: primordial shore. Uh sort of a situation, and and therefore 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: you do get in the zone. You get in the 43 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: crab zone, right. Um, But I don't know that. This 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: this year, I wasn't feeling it, so I did not 45 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: have any crab but I was. I was in New Orleans, uh, 46 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: and I did enjoy some some very nice food, uh, 47 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: some very nice drinks. I made it over to Latitude 48 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: once more and had some some drinks at beach bum Berries. 49 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: Oh do they do anything with tiki turkey puns for 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: for this time of year? Well, no, they get into 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: the sip in Santa things. So there were some Christmas ones. 52 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: I had a Christmas Eve of Destruction, which was very nice. Okay, okay, 53 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: but we gotta talk crabs. That people want crabs. Yeah, 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: let's get into crabs. So um, you know, in our 55 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: in our most recent episodes on Crabs, I did dish 56 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: out a little bit of crab mythology, and I mentioned 57 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: how crabs don't often seem to have central rolls and 58 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: myths and folklores for various reasons. But but that doesn't 59 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: mean they don't have some very fun cameos. And of 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: course I do hold out hope that there are some 61 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: some other crab myths and legends out there that I 62 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: just don't know about. And so as always, if I'm 63 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: missing something, right in and let us know now. In 64 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: The Eight Immortals cross the Sea, an important Chinese work 65 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: of the Ming dynasty, you basically have the story of 66 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: these eight powerful humanoid beings using their various powers to 67 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: cross the ocean and kind of show off as they're 68 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: doing it. Okay, I'm trying to is this something we've 69 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: talked about on the show before or similar to it, 70 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: or or a lot of these beings sort of uh, 71 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: overlapping with the animals of the Chinese zodiac. I believe 72 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: we've talked about the immortals before, but I don't think 73 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: we've really looked at this particular work, okay, uh. And 74 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: you might be thinking of the Chinese zodiac origin story 75 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: about the the animal race where they have to cross 76 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: a great river, so so this is different than that. 77 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: But basically these are these are super beings. They have superpowers, 78 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: and so they're showing off as they crossed the ocean, 79 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: and crossing the ocean also entails outsmarting and overpowering the 80 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: Dragon king. As this is his domain. And we have 81 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: mentioned the Dragon King on the show before, but it's 82 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: said that the Dragon King is served by quote, shrimp 83 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: soldiers and crab generals, as this is the sea after all, 84 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: And and I believe these these these sort of shrimp 85 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: soldiers and crab generals also show up in tales of 86 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: the Monkey King when when he encounters the Dragon King 87 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: or the Dragon king soldiers. What is it about crabs 88 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: that puts them in commander rolls? Don't? I mean, you're 89 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: gonna put the shrimp in the commander roll? I mean 90 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: it seems like a no brainer, right, But the thing 91 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: is that in these stories the shrimp and the crabs 92 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: are generally seen as ineffectual. So you have this saying 93 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: that emerges from these tales. Any you have references to 94 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: shrimp soldiers and crab generals. This has just become become 95 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: a way of referring to ineffective soldiers. Uh so I 96 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: kind of like that phrase. Okay, So would this be 97 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: kind of similar to when people say tin soldiers like 98 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: t I N I think so, yeah, I think this 99 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: would be this would be a version of that in Mandarin. 100 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: Now there's another Chinese crab myth that I was reading 101 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: about that that was really fascinating me, and I wasn't 102 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: really able to get quite to the bottom of it. 103 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: But it pops up in yang and and Turner's Handbook 104 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: of Chinese Mythology. It concerns the Yellow Emperor, and there 105 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: are a lot of stories about the Yellow Emper and 106 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: this one just happens to involve crabs. A lot of 107 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: these emerge from from zin Jung in the Non province, 108 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: and this one seems to have as well. And in 109 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: this particular tale, the Yellow Emperor's attendants find a nice 110 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: cave for him to visit in the owners So this 111 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: is just just a really nice cave. It's cool, uh, 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: you know some water there. You can rest very comfortable. 113 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: Except they're way too many mosquitoes and other unwanted vermin 114 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: living in the cave. So the Yellow Emperor just kind 115 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: of casually mentions like, geez, I wish someone would drive 116 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: these creatures away. Whish somebody would wipe these creatures out 117 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: so I could enjoy this cave, because otherwise it's a 118 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: great place to spend the summer. So what happens when 119 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: an individual of great power casually mentions the desire well, 120 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: oftentimes U uh, somebody will see an opportunity, and that's 121 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: what the crabs living in the cave do. They hear 122 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: this and they decide, well, let's do it. So they 123 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: drive all the unwanted creatures out of this wondrous cave, 124 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: and as a reward, the Yellow Emperor is said to 125 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: have given these crabs an extra set of legs. Quote. Thereafter, 126 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: only the crabs in the local pond have tin legs. Wait, 127 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: I'm confused. Okay, so do you know anything about how 128 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: this connects to to biology, because so crabs are decapods 129 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: that should have ten legs, right right right? Yeah, this 130 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: is where I really started scratching my head a bit, 131 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: because yeah, that decapod crabs are quite literally ten legged crabs. 132 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: So what would these other crabs have been? Well, I 133 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: guess it seems to get complicated because technically decapods can 134 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: have as many as thirty eight appendages, and generally the 135 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: pereiopods are walking appendages or what we very loosely refer 136 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: to as legs, and there are five pairs of those. 137 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, many common crabs, such as 138 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: ghost grabs, they do run around on four pairs of 139 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: legs and sometimes actually only employ three pairs in running, 140 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: and the fifth pair of legs or the claws, which 141 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: we humans often go ahead and at least think of 142 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: as hands, right, because we can make we can make 143 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: a little crab claws with our hands, and so we 144 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: kind of feel like those are the crabs hands, right, Yeah, 145 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: And if you want to get really technical, I mean, 146 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: crabs have all kinds of bilaterally symmetrical pen dig is 147 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: that you could imagine our legs or have evolved from 148 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: legs at some point. So you know, crabs have jaw 149 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: legs in their mouths, the uh, the maxilla peds that 150 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: help them eat and uh and yeah, so so yeah, 151 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: it's true. Even though they will typically have ten legs 152 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: or leg like appendages, some of those could be seen 153 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: as other things. Like you're saying, you know, a person 154 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: looking at a crab's claws as well, those aren't legs, 155 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: those are hands, or looking at maybe the swimmer legs 156 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: says those aren't legs, those are fins. Yeah. Yeah, because 157 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: some crabs have paddles for their their hindmost pair of legs, 158 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: so you can at least imagine a scenario in which 159 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: someone might not count those as being part of the 160 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: leg count. But um, but yeah, I'm not really sure 161 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: how to exactly interpret this story that maybe there's something 162 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: missing in translation. Um, you know, I looked around at 163 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: a few papers about extra leg genetic abnormalities and some crabs, 164 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: so maybe that's not out of the question either. Uh, 165 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: maybe there's just something particular about the crabs in this 166 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: cave environment or or even you know, is it sometimes 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: the case and accounts like this in legends. Maybe it's 168 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: not even describing a crab, it's something else, and the 169 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: legend comes down to, you know, describing why does this 170 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: thing look a little different than what we're used to? Well, 171 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: because it did something wonderful and therefore was gifted extra appendages. Okay, 172 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: what number of appendages? Does it become not that useful 173 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: to have more of them? You know, if you've got 174 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: if you've got two arms, having two more arms, that 175 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: seems like a real upgrade, right, like Goro has got 176 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: a real advantage over a regular human. But once let's 177 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: say you already have uh ten bilaterally symmetrical appendages, if 178 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: you get two more, is I mean, is that really 179 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: an upgrade or do they just get in the way 180 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: at that point, Yeah, I guess this is usually a 181 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: question that that evolution natural selection solves over time. Right 182 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: if if if appendages are not needed, well then they're 183 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: just a drain on the the economy of the body, 184 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: and therefore there's a there's a possibility they're going to 185 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: disappear year over time, that they're gonna a trophy. So 186 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: I don't know. But anyway, coming back to the story 187 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: you were telling, I love that detail about the Yellow 188 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: Emperor just sort of idly saying, oh, I wish someone 189 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: would get rid of all these mosquitoes, because it kind 190 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: of reminds me of the Actually don't know if this 191 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: is historically solid, but the at least the at least 192 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: legendary tale of the death of Thomas Beckett, the Archbishop 193 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: of Canterbury, who when Henry the second supposedly said he 194 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: was like mad at him, I guess, and said, you know, 195 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: won't someone rid me of this meddlesome priest? And uh, 196 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't given as an order. He was just kind 197 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: of musing about how mad he was. But some nights 198 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: happened to over hear him and they're like, well, okay, 199 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: I guess we gotta go kill this guy and they did. Yeah, 200 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: basically seems to be the same situation here. Now I'm 201 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: out of my depth on this, but I also can't 202 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: help but wonder maybe part of the idea of the 203 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: story is the crab has so many legs anyway, and 204 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: therefore it's not much of a reward. I don't know. 205 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: It makes me wonder, but I couldn't find out. I 206 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: looked around. I couldn't find any other strong sources, you know, 207 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: in in English on this. But if anyone out there 208 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: has any details about strange crabs in a non province, 209 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: crabs from the caves, and crabs with extra limbs right in, 210 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: I would love to love to have more clarity on this. 211 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: While you were telling the story, I was hit with 212 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: a with a tremendously bad pun. Should I say it? 213 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: Should I not say it? I don't know. It was 214 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: little pinchers have big ears. That's good now, Uh, yeah, 215 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: it's good now. There are there are other crab tales 216 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: to be found in Chinese mythology. For instance, they are 217 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: fairy old myths to be found throughout various myth cycles 218 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: of China among different ethnic groups about the separation of 219 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: heaven and Earth. Uh. This is of course something you 220 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: see in in other myth cycles as well. Uh. And 221 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: in Chinese traditions, sometimes there is a sky tower or 222 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: sky pillar connecting the two, and sometimes an an moll 223 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: is to blame for severing this tower or pillar. And 224 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: apparently in some tellings it is a crab that does 225 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: the snippet. Ah. Well, that would make sense. Yet again, 226 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: when there's something to be snipped in a myth, sometimes 227 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: the crab will fill that gap. Yeah. Now another one 228 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: that I was reading about. This one. This is another 229 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, very old mythological tale, and it's the story 230 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: of of woman Cho, of whom there are I think 231 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: three narratives in the Classic of Mountain, Mountains and Seas, 232 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: and as Zann Barrel explains in Chinese mythology in an introduction, 233 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: the written versions of these tales UH date from the 234 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: first century b c. E. And the first century see 235 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: and they tell of a time during which quote, there 236 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: are two people in the sea, but we only meet 237 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: one woman Cho, who is strongly linked with the crab. 238 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: And it seems like she may either take on the 239 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: form of a crab or she has a crab that 240 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: is her attendant, and it seems like this might be 241 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: a crab of unusual size. And the reasons for this 242 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: seemed to include the idea that okay, you've got the 243 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: land and the and you got the sea, and you 244 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: have the crab, which kind of has a dual nature. 245 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: Like the crab lives on both. It can scamper on 246 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: the beach, but then it can scamper beneath the waves, 247 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: it can swim in the water, and so forth. Yeah, 248 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: the dual nature is right there in its body. It's 249 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: it lives in the ocean, but it walks on its legs. 250 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: But then the crab also does another interesting thing. It molts, 251 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: It sheds it's it's old shell and grows a new one. 252 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: And this was seen as a kind of regeneration that 253 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: might allow the crab to live forever. And it was 254 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: also associated with cycles of the moon, and of course 255 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: the moon has strong connections to the idea of immortality 256 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: and Chinese mythology as well. Oh, that's very interesting, and 257 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder why we have commonly adopted the 258 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: metaphor of the butterfly as the you know, the the 259 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: important image from nature of something going through a transformation 260 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: and then uh, and then coming out something new. I mean, 261 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: I guess the difference there is that a butterfly looks 262 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: very different than the than the larval stage that went 263 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: into the pupa. But uh, but when a crab comes 264 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: out is just bigger. So maybe that is a better metaphor. 265 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: I don't know now. Woman Chow is also known as 266 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: Woman Cho corpse, corpse deity and Uh. This is connected 267 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: to drought and the time of the Ten Sons, the 268 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: time in Chinese mythology we've mentioned on the show before, Uh, 269 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: when there are tens sons in the sky and they 270 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: are burning up the earth, as related in the Shanghai 271 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: Shan quote. Woman child corpse was born, but the Tin 272 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: sons scorched her to death. That was north of the 273 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: land of Men. She screened her face with her right 274 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: hand where the Tin sons are up above. Woman Cho 275 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: lived there on top of the mountain, so she's she's 276 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: scorched and burned by the surplus suns, perhaps seemingly especially 277 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: her hand because she's shielding her eyes with that hand. 278 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: But then she is later reborn in brilliant green, so 279 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: she has renewal, she has drought survival, but she has 280 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: also connected to these observations of the crab and the 281 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: idea that the crab experiences this sort of periodic renewal 282 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: as well. Now, another area concerning crabs that I was 283 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: looking at kind of comes back to stuff we've talked 284 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: about already about the you know, the idea that the 285 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: crab design is a winning design, that it's emerged independently 286 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: multiple times, and that according to some eventually everything will 287 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: become a crab. Right, that's kind of the meme. Yeah, 288 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: I think the more modest phrasing is that other crustaceans 289 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: that are not necessarily crablike inform have repeatedly evolved into 290 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: crab like forms multiple times in the history of life. Yeah. 291 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: So earlier this year, Doug Johnson wrote a fun article 292 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: for Ours Technica titled on Earth things evolve into crabs? 293 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: Could the same be true in space? Uh? And so 294 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: that part of this article is the author's generally summing 295 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: up some of these ideas we've we've discussed already, But 296 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: then he gets into this this issue of alien life 297 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: because if we follow the logic that aliens might be humanoid, 298 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: because that's what we see emerge as a dominant intelligent 299 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: life form on our own world, then we might go 300 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: as far as to wonder, well, if crabs are a 301 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: popular form on this planet, wouldn't it make sense to 302 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: see crab or crab like bodies crab morphs if you 303 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: will on alien worlds as well. I want to believe so. 304 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: Um Johnson reached out to one of the authors of 305 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: the paper I referenced in our previous crab episode, Joe 306 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: wool for researcher at Harvard University's Department of Organismic and 307 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: Evolutionary Biology. The article was how does a crab become 308 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: a crustacean? And I have to say absolutely love this 309 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: quote from her. This is something she told to ours 310 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: technical and in the the the interview quote there is 311 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: no clear cut reason why being a crab is better 312 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: than not being a crab. But if you say that 313 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: too loud, the crabs in the cable here you and 314 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: then they'll turn into something else. True. But I love 315 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: this this quote because there's an absurdity to it, obviously, 316 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: but it also does ring absolutely true and betrays a 317 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: deeper understanding. You know, we don't have an answer in 318 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 1: human reason and human language to the question here, but 319 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: evolution provides its own answer, and the answer seems to 320 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: be the crab form itself um in various examples. However, 321 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: Johnson talks to Charles Marshall, director of the University of 322 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: California Museum of Paleontology, and Marshall points out that all 323 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: in all, it's a fairly narrow group of species that 324 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: have become crab morphs on our planet. Um that you 325 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: know that we shouldn't we shouldn't get too excited about this, 326 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: this idea. It's like, well, crabs are everywhere, so they 327 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: must be in space. Like there's like, ultimately, it's still 328 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 1: a situation where the crab form has evolved as an 329 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: answer to specific questions posed by our natural environment, and 330 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: not say universal questions, right, And I think the other 331 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: half of that, uh, The other important point highlighted by 332 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: by Marshall's observation here is that it's not just that 333 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: the natural environment creates some pressure that encourages crab like forms, 334 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: but that it's also certain morphological starting places that if 335 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: you're starting with a genome that codes for a certain 336 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: kind of body plan, it's easy to get from there 337 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: into a crab like form, and that body plan is 338 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: like other certain types of especially marine arthropods, you know, 339 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: certain crustacean types, right, I mean, like, for example, you 340 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: can you can look at that the hands of various organisms, right, 341 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: Like to get something like an extra finger or an 342 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: extra thumb, it has to come from somewhere. You know, 343 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: there has to be a starting point. It's not just 344 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, suddenly thumb sort of a situation exactly so. 345 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: And maybe you know, another billion years, we could find 346 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: that all kinds of mammals on Earth have evolved thumbs, 347 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: because it turns out it's really useful for all kinds 348 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: of animals. But you're not going to really find uh, say, 349 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: crabs with thumbs, right, because they don't really have the 350 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: morphological building blocks to start with to make thumbs, right, 351 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: But I mean they do, they do sometimes have access 352 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: to thumbs, because we do mention that they will show 353 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: down on a cadaver. Yeah. Um, then again I want 354 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: just to doubt what I just said. I mean, I 355 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: guess depending on how expansive your definition of thumb is, 356 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: you could say that a crabs claws, the pinching motion 357 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: provides some of what a thumb is good for, right, 358 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: That a thumb can help you you know, close your 359 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: hand over an object in order to manipulate it, obviously 360 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: with much more dexterity than usually a crab can. But 361 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: I can see why we might look at the crab 362 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: body and think, well, this might be good in in 363 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: space because we look at the way the crab moves 364 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: on land and through water, and it's easy to extracolate 365 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: that toum like a micro gravity situation. Right. So, in 366 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: the same way that you have some crabs on Earth 367 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: who's whose rear most pair of legs has turned into 368 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: swimmer legs, a little paddle legs to help them move 369 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: through the water, you could imagine a crab whose final 370 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: pair of legs has turned into ion thrusters. Well, I 371 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't go that far, but um I will say add that. 372 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: I think another aspect of all of this is that, 373 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: you know, we we tend to think of like crab 374 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: more of popping up everywhere and imagine them in the 375 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: future and another planets, because we do take a lot 376 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: of delight in these organisms. I mean, they're weird, they're stealthy, 377 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: they're efficient, they're kind of funny to look at. Uh, 378 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: they're amusing to watch in the wild, and of course 379 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: we like to eat some of them. Uh, so we 380 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: have a vested interest in their existence, and that's always 381 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: a great way to wind up as a noted animal 382 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: for humans. Is it something that we eat or is 383 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: it something that can eat us? And uh, you know 384 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: that the crab kind of checks off both boxes, Uh, 385 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: with some caveats on the the consumption of humans. That's 386 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: a very well observed But I want to come back 387 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: to crabs eating strange things, were being attracted to eat 388 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: strange things at least, uh, And I wanted to do 389 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: that by looking at a study I came across from 390 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: just this year, looking at hermit crabs. Now we've mentioned 391 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: hermit crabs a number of times in this series. Now, 392 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: hermit crabs are decapod crustaceans. They're not considered to quote 393 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: true crabs. I can't remember if we've said that already, 394 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: but they belonged to the group and Amura meaning the 395 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: false crabs, rather than bracky Era, which are supposedly true crabs. 396 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: But hey, you know they're they're close enough there crabs. 397 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: And so the study that I was reading about that 398 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about was actually just published earlier 399 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: this year. So in and It was by Jack Greenshields, Paula. Shermocker, 400 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: and your Hartigaie in the journal Marine Pollution Bulletin. The 401 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: authors here start by noting that bunch of research has 402 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: identified a problem of marine life being in one way 403 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: or another attracted to plastic waste. So we've talked before 404 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: about some of the problems with plastic trash in the ocean. 405 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: We discussed this somewhat in our interview with Christine Figner 406 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: as it regards um, you know, the interactions between plastic 407 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: waste and sea turtles. But plastic trash in the ocean 408 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: is not just a sort of accidental collision problem, right. 409 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: It's not just that a turtle happens to randomly swim 410 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: into a bunch of plastic six pack rings that are 411 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: floating along on the surface of the water. In many cases, 412 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: it appears that animals that live in the ocean are 413 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 1: actively attracted to plastic waste. That it is it is 414 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: getting their attention in one way or another and disrupting 415 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: their natural survival behaviors. And there are debates about the 416 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: reasons for this. There are, of course, no doubt, different 417 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: reasons when it comes to different types of plastic waste 418 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: and different animals. So, for example, in some cases, visual 419 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: mechanisms have been proposed maybe who knows, maybe a plastic 420 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: bag drifting through the water looks like a delectable jellyfish 421 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: and so forth. But in other cases the mechanisms can 422 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: remain more obscure. And in this study, the authors were 423 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: investigating a strange phenomenon in a hermit crab species called 424 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: Pagurus bernardus, which is the common hermit crab or the 425 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: soldier crab. This is a species that's native to the 426 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: Atlantic coast of Europe and along the northern coast of Europe, 427 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: basically the coast of Europe, but not really the Mediterranean 428 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: uh specifically, this study I think was looking at the 429 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: waters off of the eastern northern coast of England, so 430 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: off of a place called robin Hood's Bay in North Yorkshire. 431 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: I was actually listening to a radio interview on the 432 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: CBC with Paula Shermacher, one of the authors of this study, 433 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: and it was addressing the question of why were hermit 434 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: crabs chosen for this study, and Shermocker says that hermit 435 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: crabs are sort of a good model species to study 436 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: She identified a few reasons. They're small, they're very curious, 437 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: and they have quote a very diverse appetite, which I 438 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: think goes with a lot of the things we've been 439 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: saying so far. That you know, there are plenty of 440 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: crabs out there, both true crabs and crab like animals, 441 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: false crabs that that are not super picky when it 442 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: comes to food types. They'll take what they can get, 443 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: and hermit crabs often appear to fit that bill. They 444 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: have a they have diverse diets and appetites. Yeah, I 445 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: love that tidbit about hermit crabs, uh says. They they're 446 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: they're interested in things that smell like food, but they're 447 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: also interested in the site of another hermit crab appearing 448 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: to eat something, so that that alone is is enough 449 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: of a cue for them, right. But so, this research 450 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: team was based out of the University of Hull in England, 451 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: and what it found was that hermit crabs were attracted 452 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: to the smell of a plastic additive known as olyamide. Now, 453 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: oleamide is an organic compound. It's used as an additive 454 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: agent in numerous plastic products. I was digging around trying 455 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: to find out more about exactly what it's used for, 456 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: And it looks like most often olyamide is used as 457 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: a quote slip agent uh, and so this would be 458 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: something that is added to a polymer to reduce the 459 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: coefficient of friction on the surface of the material, basically 460 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: to make the polymer more slippery. I also saw one 461 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: of the authors here, I think it was in that 462 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: CBC interview saying that it helps in some ways make 463 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: the plastic more malleable. But it seems like the major 464 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: use of it, from what I could tell, was to 465 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: make plastics less grippy, to make them them a little 466 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 1: slicker to the touch. And so you might wonder, well, 467 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: why would you want that? Sometimes I think that's a 468 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: desirable characteristic of plastic on the consumer side, But it 469 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 1: also looks like slip additives are just important on the 470 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: manufacturing side, especially with products involving thin plastic films like 471 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: plastic bags and thin plastic food wrappers and packaging and 472 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: things like that, and that adding these slip additives helps 473 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: make it easier to like extrude the materials and then 474 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: wrap them up tightly. But ollamide is also a a 475 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: natural fatty acid. It's a natural organic compound that you 476 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: know you'll find it in our bodies. It apparently has 477 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: something to do with the regulation of sleep in in humans, 478 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: and so I think has attracted some attention as a 479 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: possible sleep aid, though I can't vouch for whether those 480 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: UH alleged uses would be valid or not. But at 481 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: least olamide naturally seems to play some role in the 482 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: regulation of the desire for sleep in the human body. 483 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: But again, it's also being used as this additive to 484 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: help lubricate our plastics. And it turns out when you 485 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: put oleamide into plastics, only amide can sometimes leach out 486 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 1: from that plastic into the environment. So what happens if 487 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: you're a hermit crab and you are crawling along the 488 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: ocean floor and you happen to stagger into a big 489 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: junkyard of plastic waste that is flooding the water with 490 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: low concentrations of oleumide. Well, according to this study, surprisingly, 491 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: if you're a hermit crab, that gets you really excited. UH. 492 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: The authors of this research found that exposure to low 493 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: concentrations of oleamide dispersed in water will cause an increase 494 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: in the respiration rate of hermit crabs, and that this 495 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: is a standard biomarker sign that that indicates excitement and attraction. 496 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: Speaking to CBC Radio, Poulishrmacher again, one of the authors 497 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: characterized the hermit crabs reacting to the oleamide as almost hyperactive, 498 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: and so the question would be, why why do they 499 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: get so excited and stirred up when they smell this 500 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: plastic a additive. Well, basically it seems that they're reacting 501 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: to olamide the same way they react when they smell 502 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: a really exciting food stimulant. So this research was done 503 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: in controlled conditions. But if if this in fact bears 504 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: out into the natural environment, what you'd have to imagine 505 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: is you've got some piece of very well lubricated plastic 506 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: trash that is leaching oleamide into the sea water, and 507 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: then a hermit crab smells it and then it kind 508 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: of powers up, gets excited and heads toward the food source, 509 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: only to find an inedible piece of plastic at the 510 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: end of its hunt, which obviously is not great for 511 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: the hermit crab, is because they should be spending that 512 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: energy hunting for real food rather than than plastic that 513 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: they can't really get nutrition from. So why would this 514 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: compound used in polymer manufacturing cause a hermit crab to 515 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: react as if it smelled food. Well, again, I think 516 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: the answer is not known for sure, but the authors 517 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: seem to have a pretty strong suspicion on that front, 518 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: which is that only am i'd is chemically similar to 519 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: olaic acid, which is a chemical that is released by 520 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: the rotting bodies of dead arthropods. Of course, hermit crabs 521 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: are arthropods as well, you know, these these related creatures 522 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: with exoskeletons. So a hermit crab may well smell a 523 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: plastic food wrapper that's been you know, tossed into the 524 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: ocean's litter, and then it literally starts heavy breathing at 525 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: the thought of the ripe dead body of an arthropod 526 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: cousin that that it might be able to feast on. 527 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: Because again, hermit crabs are scavengers. And this is what 528 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: the authors call an old factory trap. All right, yeah, 529 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: well this this makes sense. Yeah, it smells like shrimp 530 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: death or a crab death or or what have you. 531 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: They're going to be interested and go over there and 532 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: check it out. And even if it's not, I mean, 533 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: even if they want you know, didn't actually consume any 534 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: of the plastic. Like you said, this is wasted energy, 535 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: this is wasted scavenging that that should be spent on 536 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: more lucrative endeavors. Right. So yeah, So to come back 537 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: to the original question, that this is one indication of 538 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: another way plastic waste in the ocean could be harmful 539 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: to wildlife and showing a mechanism of attraction. In this case, 540 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: it could attract these hermit crabs by way of additive leaching, 541 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: possibly on the false promise of rotting kin flesh. Now, 542 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: as to the question of whether the hermit crabs actually 543 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: end up eating the plastic, whether they find it, I'm 544 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 1: not sure about that. This study was just looking at 545 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: them responding to the smell as if it were food. 546 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: I don't know whether they would actually try to get 547 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: it down the gullet or not. Another thing that I 548 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: thought was worth flagging is there was an interesting case 549 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 1: of miscommunication and some early science reporting about this study 550 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: because a number of early articles about the study incorrectly 551 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: claimed that the that the hermit crabs were sexually aroused 552 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: by the smell of the plastic additive. That is not true. 553 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: That is not true of her crabs. That seems to 554 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: have been a miscommunication based I think out of the 555 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: university press office where this study came from. But while 556 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: this is not true for hermit crabs, it does appear 557 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: that olamide is a constituent of the sex pheromones of 558 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: some other organisms like cleaner shrimp. So you know, you 559 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: can't rule out all possibilities. Maybe there are some Arthur 560 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: pods in the ocean that would have some kind of 561 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: sexual response to plastic additives than now, I was looking 562 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: up more on the relationship between olamide, oleic acid, and decomposition, 563 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: and uh I was reading a few things that actually 564 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: reminded me of something we've touched on on the show before, 565 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: which is the fact that oleic acid played a role 566 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: in some classic research on ants by E. O. Wilson. Robert. 567 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if this rings a bell for you, 568 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: but uh so, back in the fifties, EO. Wilson, the 569 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: Great Entomologist, was studying harvester ants and their waste disposal behaviors, 570 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: and so many ants have tremendous waste disposal capabilities. So 571 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: ants will sometimes create a midden in or around their nest, 572 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: basically a trash heap where they dump their garbage and 573 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: the makeup of this midden can vary, but it will 574 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: include everything from feces, to debris removed during nest construction 575 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: or other behaviors, to the dead bodies of fellow ants 576 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: from the colony. So you come across a dead ant 577 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: in the colony, you want to get that out of there, 578 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: and so the ants will take it away to to 579 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: the midden or in some cases just away from the nest, 580 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: but in other cases to this this trash heap and 581 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: the middens containing the bodies of dead ants have sometimes 582 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: been referred to as ant graveyards or ant cemeteries. They 583 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: are somewhat creepy to look at. They're like a spider's 584 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: web without the web. The process by which social insects 585 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: remove dead relatives from their test is known as necrophoresis, 586 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: and that that comes from necro meaning dead and phoresis 587 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: meaning carrying or transport. But to bring this back to EO. 588 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: Wilson in this somewhat famous story from the history of entomology, 589 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: when EO. Wilson was studying this death transportation behavior in 590 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: harvester ants in the nineteen fifties, he started to wonder 591 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: how the ants could tell that one of their number 592 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: had died and needed to be removed. What what was 593 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: it that triggered the undertaker behavior in a certain in 594 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: a certain subset of ants a certain period after another 595 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: one of them had died, And so Wilson he figured 596 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: that this likely was caused by by some kind of smell, 597 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: a pheromone of some kind. In this case, it's something 598 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: that would actually come to be known as a necromane. 599 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: And he studied a bunch of different compounds that that 600 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: could be released by a crushed or decaying dead ant, 601 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: and he eventually found a winner, which was our old 602 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: friend from from just a bit earlier, oleic acid. So, 603 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: according to this story, he then tried an experiment where 604 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: he got a bit of oleic acid and he dabbed 605 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: it onto a live harvester ant to see what would happen. Okay, 606 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: so this is one of these compounds released when an 607 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: aunt is dead. Now an aunt is alive, but it's 608 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: got this stuff all over it. And sure enough, he 609 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: reported that eventually the tainted ant was grabbed by other 610 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: ants and then treated as a dead aunt. So it 611 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: was alive and kicking, but it was carried off to 612 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: the midden for disposal. So basically he framed an aunt. Yes, 613 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: he hung a sign on it saying I am a corpse, 614 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 1: and the other aunts were like, okay, time to time 615 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: to get to work. Um. Now, I think the happy 616 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: ending of the story, if I recall correctly, is that 617 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: after the ant spent a while cleaning the oleic acid 618 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: off of its exoskeleton, it successfully rejoined the colony. So 619 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 1: it just had to get all this stuff off of it. Yeah, 620 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: I had, um, I remember reading about this or or 621 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: we're seeing it covered in one the documentaries about Wilson. Um. 622 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I love about him 623 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: is that, like, he clearly has a tremendous amount of 624 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: love for ants, but it's a love that is based 625 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: in how they actually function as organisms, more so than 626 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: like anthropomorphism, because it's easy to love ants and you know, 627 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: think in terms of of armies and you know, very 628 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: human models of what they're doing and why they're doing it. 629 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: But but Wilson, you know, I wouldn't go as suppost well, 630 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: I would go as far as to say that Wilson 631 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: like speaks and understands their language because because that that 632 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: is a predominant area of a lot of his study, 633 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: he understands how they communicate and and and and in 634 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: doing so he has this this understanding of what they 635 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: are and you know how they function. Oh, I totally agree. 636 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: That comes through when you hear him talk about aunts. Yeah, 637 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: that he he loves ants, not not by anthropomorphizing them, 638 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: but loves aunts as ants. Let ants be ants. They're 639 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: really good at it, and they're really the ast at it. 640 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: I mean if you actually part of the problem is 641 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: if you try to love ants by anthropomorphizing them, by 642 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: imagining them as tiny humans, then their behavior becomes monstrous, 643 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: Like humans should not be doing what ants do, but 644 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: ants should do what ants do. Ants are great at 645 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: doing ants. By the way, if you want more content 646 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: on ants, we did a series about ant wars. Uh 647 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: I guess it was last year, but you can find 648 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: those those episodes. I think there are three or four 649 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: of them in the archives. But so anyway, for for 650 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: these harvester ants, oleic acid seems to trigger an instinctual 651 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: behavior that says, hey, this object is filthy, rotting trash. 652 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: Maybe you know it's some kind of garbage or it's 653 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: a dead one of you, so it just needs it 654 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: needs to be out of here, get it out of here, 655 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: and take it to the midden. Now, in contrast with 656 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: the other study with hermit crabs, I thought this was 657 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: just funny because in so in these harvester ants, oleic 658 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: acid means you know, I am dead, take me to 659 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: the graveyard, and in hermit crabs, oleic acid and possibly 660 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: only am I to because it is chemically similar, causes 661 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: the reaction of you know, commence your heavy breathing. The 662 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: buffet is now open. But in either case it appears 663 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: to have something to do with death and decay. Is 664 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: just the question of like, does arthropod death and decay 665 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: signal to you a sort of an affection risk, something 666 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: that's like whatever this is, it's it's it's not something 667 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: we want in our colony, we need to get it 668 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: out for hygienic purposes. Or does it signal something is 669 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: potentially delicious and you know you're not going to miss 670 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: up a chance to get some lunch. And apparently the 671 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: use of alic acid is a type of signaling molecule 672 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: conveying information about death and decay among arthropods. Doesn't stop there. 673 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: Because I was looking at a study from two thousand 674 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: nine published in the journal Evolutionary Biology by Yao at 675 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: All called the ancient chemistry of avoiding risks of predation 676 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: and disease. Uh. You know, so a cockroach can smell 677 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: a dead or crushed cockroach nearby, and the researchers determined 678 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: that it was primarily by the presence of a couple 679 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: of fatty acids linoleic acid and oleic acid. Again, like 680 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: we've been talking about using these, uh, these molecules as necromaneques, 681 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: and the authors here separate the responses to these necromone 682 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: cues into into two main categories so that they talk 683 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: about what we were just talking about, the the necrophoric 684 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: behavior of advanced to use social insects like ants, bees, 685 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: and termites that will smell oleic acid or linoleic acid 686 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: on on a dead member of their nest and then 687 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: use that as a behavioral trigger to get that thing 688 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: out of the nest or into the midden safely away 689 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: from the activity of the other members of the nest. Uh. 690 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: So that's necrophoric behavior. But then there are plenty of 691 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: other arthropods like cockroaches apparently, uh, these would be classified 692 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: as maybe semi social species that practice necrophobic behavior instead, 693 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: so that's just avoiding the smell of death of their 694 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: own kind. And the authors here were looking at the 695 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: question of how where does this come from? You know, 696 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: lots of different arthropods seem to have this behavioral response 697 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: to these compounds. And so the authors say, quote, we 698 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: hypothesize that necromones are a phylogenetically ancient class of related signals, 699 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,919 Speaker 1: and predicted that terrestrial isopoda that strongly aggregate and lack 700 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 1: known dispersants would avoid body fluids and corpses using fatty 701 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 1: acid necromones. These again would be things like like oleic 702 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: acid or linoleic acid. And so the researchers here found 703 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: that indeed, these these isopods were were repelled by several things, 704 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 1: so crushed conspecifics. They were also avoidant of non crush 705 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 1: just intact corpses of their own kind and alcohol extracts 706 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: of the bodies of their own dead. And then they write, quote, 707 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: as predicted, the repellent fraction contained olic and linoleic acids 708 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: and and authentic standards repelled several isopod species. And then 709 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: I think they also did some tests in other organisms 710 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: tent caterpillars and fall web worms, and found that these 711 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: creatures would would also tend to when they were siting 712 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: their nests, they would avoid sites that smelled like the 713 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: body fluids of their own conspecifics. And then finally the 714 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: researchers found that just plain olaic and linoleic acids were 715 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: strongly avoided by these creatures. So there are diverse types 716 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: of arthropods across, you know, widely varying categories of life, 717 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: that all seemed to have this necromone response. They smell 718 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: olaic acid or linoleic acid, and that signals to them 719 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: some kind of get away from this reaction. And the 720 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: researchers here traced this back to aquatic ancestors of all 721 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: these existing creatures uh that that lived probably more than 722 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: four hundred million years ago, they say, at least four 723 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million years ago, and this pre dates 724 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: the the divergence of Crustacea and hexapoda, So modern terrestrial 725 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: insects and crustaceans, which would include crabs, an ancestor tracing 726 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: back to before those different categories of life split off 727 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: from each other, probably developed this response. Though of course, 728 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: at some point along the way, some creatures started reacting 729 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: to oleic acid as as something to to be chogged 730 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: down on. Wow. So there's you know, there's plenty to 731 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: be concerned about with with with our over alliance on plastic, 732 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: especially single use plastics. But in this we see a 733 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: way that that plastics can end up um interfering with this, uh, 734 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: with with the with the olfactory language of decomposition that 735 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: is so rooted and established in the natural world, the 736 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: hugely widespread chemical language. Yeah, that affects insects and and 737 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: and crustaceans and and there are different responses to it. 738 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: But if the researchers in that of your right, it's 739 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: at least one of these chemical additives commonly used in 740 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 1: plastic just happens to start saying words in this ancient language, 741 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: and that kind of confuses that could potentially confuse all 742 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: kinds of organisms. It's kind of like an alien probe 743 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: or land on Earth. And it was it was, you know, 744 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: just it was carrying out some sort of you know, 745 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: function unrelated to human beings, but it also emitted a 746 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: signal on an audible signal uh in English that said 747 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: half off on electronics, um, you know, and and people 748 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: would be then be drawn to it and they might 749 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: be disappointed when they reach it and find out that 750 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,879 Speaker 1: it's it's just you know, terraforming the planet or something 751 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: and not offering discount electronics. What what do you say 752 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: on Earth that makes some people think, you know, death 753 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: and decay, stay away, and makes other people think delicious? 754 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: Um all you can eat buffet? I mean really that 755 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: you don't have to go much further than that. The 756 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: smell of packet French onion soup mix angels to some 757 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: devils to others. You know, all right, all right, you 758 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: never noticed that, Like some people smell that and it's 759 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: just like the eyes go wide. It's delicious, and then 760 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, sometimes it just smells like armpits. Maybe 761 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: hot dog water would be another example, you know, you know, 762 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: depending on like you know, so many things. It's it's context, right. 763 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: For many people, that's gonna it smells like, you know, 764 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: a day at the ballpark. Other people are gonna be like, 765 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: that's just that smells like like sausage meat has been 766 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: soaking in there and and you know, in there for 767 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: a day or so in a cart. How to hermit 768 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: crabs react to hot dog water? I bet well, I 769 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: bet yeah, I bet they I bet they they're very interested. 770 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: They want to know more about it. All Right, well, 771 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna go and close the uh, the the crab 772 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: trap on this one, but but we'll be back in 773 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: the future, who knows what. We'll probably be back with 774 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: more crab content at some point. Uh. They're probably not 775 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: for for Thursday, but in the meantime, we'd love to 776 00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everybody out there. What are 777 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: your thoughts on uh, some of the myths and legends 778 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: we talked about here, some of the environmental issues, and 779 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: of course the behavior of crabs. Um. Oh. And on 780 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: an unrelated note, I also just want to signal out 781 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: another really fun thing to do in New Orleans that 782 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: I did not know about until this previous break. Music 783 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,280 Speaker 1: Box Village. UM really fun place. It's like a imagine 784 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: a like a kind of Junkyard playground environment where everything 785 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: is a musical instrument and um and uh and uh adults, children, 786 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: you know whoever, everyone when there is invited to sort 787 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: of make sounds on it uh and creates this wonderful 788 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: communal experience. They're also performers there. I just had a 789 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: great time with it, so I just felt like I 790 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: should I should share this, I should share this with 791 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: the world. If you're not, if you're not familiar with it, 792 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: I never heard of that. Yeah you can. You can 793 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: look at up at music Box Village dot com. In 794 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you would like to listen to other 795 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you know where 796 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaker 1: to find us. Uh Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast 797 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: feed It's anywhere you get your podcasts. You get core 798 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Monday's, Artifacts 799 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, and on Friday's we do Weird House Cinema. 800 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious topics and 801 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: just talk about a strange film. Big thanks as always 802 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 803 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 804 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other to suggest topic for 805 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello, you can email us 806 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 1: at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 807 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind's production of I Heart Radio. 808 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart 809 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 810 00:45:42,440 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: favorite shows. No no, no, no,