WEBVTT - The #1 Mindset Shift to Stop Overthinking and Start Living with Nikki Eisenhauer 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.160 Too many people are getting comfortable in their feelings and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:07.440 in swirling the story instead of figuring out how to 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:08.360 really move forward. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:19.520 Wow, welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.480 thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.480 Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.000 you think ring true, and yet for many of us, 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:34.320 our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.560 self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.239 have instead of what we do. We think things that 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.360 hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:49.000 just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.360 and creative effort to make a life worth living. This 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.320 podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.120 the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.360 If you've ever felt like you're stuck in your head, overthinking, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.720 second guessing, and feeling weighted down by your emotions, it's 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.639 good to know that you're not alone. Today I'm talking 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.280 with Nicki Eisenhower, who's a psychotherapist, a coach, and the 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:20.120 host of Emotional Badass. She believes that emotional sensitivity isn't 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.839 a weakness, it's a strength. We'll explore why so many 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.880 people struggle to change, how overthinking keeps us trapped, and 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.000 what it really takes to break free from our old patterns. 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.759 As we talked, I realize how much of my own 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.760 journey has been about learning when to listen to my 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.839 emotions and when to challenge them, because, as Nicky says, 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.200 our feelings aren't always telling the truth. By the end 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.440 of this episode, you'll have a better understanding of how 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.760 to quiet the inner chatter, take real action in your life, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.680 and step into your own strength without getting stuck in 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.680 your story. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.800 you feed. Hi, Nikki, Welcome to the show. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:00.800 Thank you for having me. 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.160 I am excited to have you on and talk about 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.520 all kinds of different things. You have quite an interesting 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:11.280 background as a psychotherapist, as a coach, as a podcast host, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.040 and you cover all kinds of topics, so it'll be 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.360 really interesting to see where we end up. But we'll 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.760 start in the place that we always do with the Parable. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.120 And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.360 their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.799 wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.600 is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.480 bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.000 which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.320 the grandchild stops and think about it for a second, 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.040 and they look up their grandparent and they say, well, 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.560 which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.040 So I'd like to start off by asking you what 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.000 that parable means to you in your life and in 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:48.840 the work that you do. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.639 It means so much. I used to teach a group 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.360 with that parable, well before I even knew what a 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.240 podcast was. It hits me in a lot of ways. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.240 I think we have so much power to feed the good, 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.519 to feed what serves us, and I think the confusion 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.639 is that sometimes we don't know what we're feeding, or 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.639 we don't know that we have that power to feed 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.280 different beasts inside of us, if you will. And so 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.720 to me, that parable is all about the empowerment of 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.680 that choice and being mindful and intentional so that we're 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.120 feeding what we really want to feed, so that we're 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:28.760 growing in a direction of lightness, of ease, of peace, 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.560 of joy, of really experiencing what is good in this 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.400 one precious life and letting go of the rest. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:37.920 Yeah. You know, as I was listening to a couple 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:42.080 recent episodes of Yours, they were what seventeen years of 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.960 working with my clients has taught me? And there's lots 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.160 of interesting lessons in there, But I kind of want 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:51.080 to pivot a slightly different direction off of that, which 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.920 is that seventeen years of working with clients is a 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.040 long time. You've worked with a lot of people, and 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.400 in that time you have seen people grow and prosper 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.800 and change and just beautiful stories. And you've seen tragedy 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.600 and heartbreak. You've seen people who don't change, people who die, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.720 all the negative outcomes we could think of. And I'm 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:15.440 curious if you have any wisdom about what it is 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.480 that allows some people to change and others not, because 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.039 any of us that are in this field for very long, 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:24.839 or even if you're not in it directly, if you 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.440 observe people in your own life, it is a mystery, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.480 right Like why was Bob able to moderate his weight 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.920 and his health and his cholesterol and become healthy where 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.400 Sam is now a Type two diabetic and only gets 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.520 out twice a week, Like we see it all around us, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.520 And I'm just curious if you have some thoughts on 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.040 what are some of the key factors in people's ability 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:48.080 to make change. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.400 That's a great question. I think the main thing that 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:53.520 is so hard to put our finger on or name 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.960 about that difference. It is so easy to see because 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.000 you can really see it, especially when you do this 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.000 work over and over again. It's like, what is that 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.800 stuff that one person has that motivates them towards this change? 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:08.599 And what is this stuff that this other person is 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.080 missing that doesn't seem to be able to do that 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.120 work or to let go of what isn't serving them. 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:18.120 To me, that stuff is insight, and insight is one 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.680 of those things that we can't really teach and we 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.560 don't really know why. This is something that I had 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.080 professors in my counseling program when I was in my 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.400 master's program teach and what they taught brand new green 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.080 therapists was that we were really going to try to 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.760 hammer in insight to people that just didn't have it, 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.520 and their intelligence level would make it seem like they 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.680 should be able to connect these dots and make these 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.000 changes and go forward, and that that very thing that 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.880 seems to motivate change is in sight, and it's sight 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.599 and just like our eyeballs. Like if you and I 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.760 are standing next to each other looking out at a landscape. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:00.839 I live in the mountains and see the mountains right 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.479 now as we're talking outside of my window. If you 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.039 and I are standing there looking at those mountains, we 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.480 know very well that you're going to have a different 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.960 site ability. I'm gonna have different site. Maybe one of 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.880 us has glasses, but when it comes to things like 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.560 our intuition or our insight, we can't really measure it 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.960 like we can to get prescription glasses. So I think 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.800 it's harder for us to really understand that other human 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.839 beings have different parts of them. And it's part sensory, 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.080 maybe it's part spiritual. Maybe it's the different karmas that 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.839 we're living out why some of us are born with 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.880 insight and some of us aren't. I tend to work 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:43.120 with very high insight people that come from family systems 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.719 where most of the players seem to suffer from and 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.160 really suffer, whether they know it or not, from low insight. 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.280 And that's just our ability to look inward, our ability 0:06:54.320 --> 0:07:00.840 to observe ourselves, our ability to see our own patterns, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.240 our own inclinations, our own motivations, our own desires, and 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.600 question them. That if we can't see those things, then 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.960 it's not going to be easy to question those things 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.280 or to change them. So I think the stuff that 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.400 you're talking about is insight. And you and your work, 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.640 I'm sure of it, and me and mine we do 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:27.320 insight oriented therapies or coaching, or we're helping people who 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.440 already have insight connected and many of them are hurt 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.600 in the world by people that just don't seem to 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.320 have that insight and likely never will, which we don't like. 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.120 Right Like, I'm all about hope and change, and so 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.560 one of the things I teach in my Boundaries course 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.760 every October is that we also have a dysfunctional hope. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:46.920 You know, we're kind of supposed to give second chances, 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.920 not infinity chances. So I think there's a lot that 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.720 plays there about that ability, that willingness, that seekers spirit, 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:57.720 that drives us to change. 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.520 I have a thousand follow on questions that So when 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.280 we say insight, I think it's worth talking a little 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.960 bit more about what that is because I'm certain that 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.000 you see this and I've seen it I got into 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.600 a recovery at twenty four years old, and I hate 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.320 to say fifty two, right, And so I mean I've 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.120 been watching some people change and other people not for 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.640 a long long time, right. And what I have seen 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.920 is people who show up and put in effort, who 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.720 appear to have some degree of insight, because they wouldn't 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.640 be there putting in the effort if they didn't have 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.320 some insight, or they can pare it back some insight. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.240 Maybe what is it you think that they need to 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:46.160 be seeing that Oftentimes people are not connecting or are 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:47.640 not seen more deeply. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:53.320 Maybe it's how deep our personal responsibility really run. And 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.640 I also think we're not so aware naturally of what 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.640 are motivating factors. So I've worked in addiction where people 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.040 live for residential treatment, and I did intensive outpatient That's 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.199 where I started my career, and very often someone could 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:13.720 speak the speak right, talk the talk, and the truth is, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:18.440 as a trained therapist, we want tangible, evidence based stuff 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.400 to help people with and to speak from. What I 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.240 learned as a human being going through that experience beyond 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.199 a therapist going through that experience was that I had 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.480 to decipher and it was a feel It's very hard 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.480 to put into words. It's a feeling because two people 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.160 can stand next to each other and utter the same thing, 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.560 the same desire, But I can feel the difference between 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:47.400 someone who is genuinely passionate and driven about going after 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.320 the very behaviors and mindsets that will serve them, and 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.040 someone else may say the exact same phrasing, but it 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.840 feels empty, it feels hollow, and often the difference there 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.600 is they're not really motive to do it for themselves. 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.640 We don't understand motivation, and when we have lower insight, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.080 we also tend to have a lower empathy and a 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.360 lower maturity. So often what I think is at play 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.160 is a lower maturity, and we don't do a great 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.359 job in mental health. I think even in spiritual circles, 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.280 just as people. I don't think we talk about maturity 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.719 in any kind of self development space, but we can 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.959 see that. There was a philosopher that I very much 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.280 identified with when I was going through my schooling. I 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.440 think it was Ericson, But I'm not great at remembering 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.000 the names and pairing them with the right information. That's 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:39.920 not my strong suit. My strong suit is the how 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.120 to heal, but in that one of those philosophers theorized 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:49.000 that most people did not truly emotionally develop into adulthood, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.520 most stayed kind of stunted in adolescents. And for me 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.560 that was a gobsmack moment to hear that information, because 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.160 I could see in my own family system that was 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.040 very dysfunctional, and in the family systems I was working 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.680 with and learning about at the time that that was very, 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.320 very true. That often there was a younger person who 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:13.480 had been parentified, who seemed to be born an old soul, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.360 like just born with some kind of maturity. And we 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.520 can really see that a lot of people have parents, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.599 a lot of people have family members. A lot of 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.200 people themselves may really be operating emotionally like a twelve 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.760 year old. They really may be operating like a sixteen 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.760 year old. And some of that is temperament, some of 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.280 that is experienced, some of that is nature, some of 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.160 that is nurture, some of that is drug and alcohol use. 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.439 Stunting emotional development, we certainly know about that, But I 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.240 would also say growing up with chaos for certain personalities 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.880 can stunt that development. So when we say trauma or dysfunction, 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.360 those are overused they're overplayed. They're almost like the word 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.360 good at this point, it's like we all know what 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.760 it means, but it doesn't mean much of anything anymore. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.680 Things that would not try ammatize us today, that would 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.680 just be annoying to us today, are truly traumatic. For 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.320 a child, we need a certain amount of peace. So 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.800 if we grow up with chaos, that may become traumatic 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.720 in a way that today would just be annoying. But 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.320 for the child we were was really unfortunate for the 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:23.040 development of our own maturity, our own ability to communicate 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.640 with more and more age and wisdom instead of reaction, 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.880 being able to really respond with greater wisdom. And if 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.240 we come from people that functionally didn't mature, I can 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.040 very much say that's true in my family system. That 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.679 is so confusing and frightening. And so if we have 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.839 a portion of the population that isn't emotionally maturing, then 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.760 of course that's going to affect how they grow and develop. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.720 Because an immature person is going to want to eat 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.400 that whole bag of oreos. It takes a certain amount 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.920 of maturity to go, wait a minute, even though part 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:57.840 of me wants to just stuff my face with all 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.520 those oreos, another part of me has to step in 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.959 and now, hey, that'll make me sick. And we need 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.560 to know that about all these more complex interactions and 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.560 dynamics and motivations and desires. Who are we doing things for. 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.839 We're pleasing the people in our family because they want 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.000 us to get sober, you know, and we want them 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.960 to quit riding our ass. So we learn to say 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:21.760 the right things. Or are we really cultivating and innern 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.840 drive towards expressing in this life to our highest potential? 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.480 Is that our driving force? Are we just trying to 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.559 get by and feel good in the moment? And if 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.200 we're immature, I suspect we're more likely. I know that 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.600 we're more likely to reach for those in the moment 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.880 feel goods that really thwart our personal development and our 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.400 security and our groundedness and even developing things like a 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.720 certain amount of wealth and financial stabilities, because money is choice, 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.480 and it's power, and it's comfort, it's so many things. 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.640 So I think so much plays on what comes together 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:04.360 to really a person towards seeking and working and it's work. 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.000 And again, if you're immature, how do we convince somebody 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.080 that the work is worth it? If their immature part 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.560 is just like I don't want to do that uncomfortable stuff. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.040 I rather sit and watch TV. How do you motivate 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.120 that if we're not really talking about maturity in these 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:19.840 spaces too. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.960 So I think there's a lot to be said for 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:27.120 this idea of maturity. When you're talking. It made me 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.560 think of Ken Wilber, who formulated that sort of we 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.000 need to clean up, grow up, and wake up. Right, 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.160 there's these three elements. Some people even include showing up 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.920 in that. What I think is interesting though, is that 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.119 by definition, so many of us arrive at the process 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:49.920 of change very immature, though growing through immaturing is part 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.400 of it. But is that the essential element because many 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.240 of us don't have it when we get here. I 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.240 know I didn't, right, you know, when I got sober, 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.520 I'm a little bit grateful. You know, I got sober 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.960 and kind of a hard ass aa environment and today's 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.480 world it would not be smiled upon too much. Maybe 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:08.480 there were some things about it that were not great, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:13.400 but there was a real strong focus on personal responsibility 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.560 and growing up and being an adult and taking care 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.160 of your business, and that was really good for me. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.800 I really needed to see that element of like all 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.360 the different ways that I show up in life. But 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.040 the other thing that that time really taught me that 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.800 I think is interesting about thinking that insight is the 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.440 stuff was you know, what I was really taught was 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.080 sometimes we can't think our way into right action. We 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.440 have to act our way into right thinking. And so 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.160 my focus was always on like, let me just do 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.200 what I'm being told to do. Let me just try 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.440 and do the thing, even though my brain still feels 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:50.680 like an angry four year old all the time. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.240 So I work with a lot of highly sensitive people, 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.920 and often I think I shock them when I say, 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.200 you cannot be so feeling driven. Our feelings are liars. 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.640 Part of the time. We have to do hard work 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.800 despite how we feel. We cannot let how we feel 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.520 drive the bus of our life. Like I'm from New Orleans, 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.200 it is the land of vices. We eat and we drink, 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.160 we feed people, we hand people drinks. We almost don't 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.400 know how to socially relate unless we're doing it through 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.120 food and alcohol. So we have to be able to 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.640 get real about the difference between what we want and 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.960 what we need. When I'm talking to highly sensitive people, 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.720 that is shocking, and it used to not be shocking. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.400 I've been doing this for seventeen years, and it used 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.920 to not be shocking. And I think it's part of Frankly, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.120 where mental health has failed in the last two decades 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:50.200 is becoming so soft and so listening of emotion that 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.000 we've forgotten that we need a balance between. Yes, of 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.120 course we need to listen to ourselves and each other, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.600 we need to pay attention to emotions and their inherent 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.880 information to check those things out, But I believe we 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:08.280 very much need to have that real world grounded basic. Hey, 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:10.840 you are going to have to grow up. Hey, you 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.159 can't give in to every feeling you have if you 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.000 want to have a really good life. It is just 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.640 that simple sometimes, and I believe sometimes therapists too get 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:25.159 caught in over complicating what really is simple in this way. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.679 That's why AA has saying it's like, just do the 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.560 next right thing, no matter how you feel. Stop paying 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.439 attention to how you feel in that moment, and just 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.960 do the next right thing. So as a profession I 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.119 think mental health has gone way too far into holding 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.639 space for emotion, dropping the ball of that personal responsibility, 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.560 and I think that is why we are seeing skyrocketing depression, addiction, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.200 and suicide. We need to tell people that they must 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:55.840 take responsibility for their lives. There's no getting around it. 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.640 There are no people with white knights that will come 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.840 and save us. I waited for one for a while. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.879 I hope for one. I fantasized about somebody coming and 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.440 doing the work for me. That may be part of 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.639 the grief process, the bargaining stage of grief. But to 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.040 get real, deep down into the nitty gritty of my 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.840 life comes down to me, no matter what happened to 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.560 me in childhood, no matter what choices my own immaturity made, 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.920 if I want a matured life, I have to actionably 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.639 take myself towards that maturity, and as myself sees me 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.960 do those actions, I will mature. I also think like 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.240 in your story, yes, of course you came to it 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.200 with immaturity, but whatever that stuff was, that insight that went, hey, 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.400 this isn't right for us, this feels icky. There's got 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.240 to be a different way that desire to want to mature, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:48.879 I believe is the insight. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.679 Yeah, there's a few different things there. I tend to 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.680 agree with you. You know, I've been doing this podcast 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.320 about nine years, I feel like even just in this 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.560 nine years, I have seen a shift where I mean, 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.400 I can see even in the answering of the wolf parable, right, 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.200 Because on one level, the wolf parable is a simple 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.919 parable about choice, right. Our actions and our thoughts and 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.160 our behaviors, they all matter and we have a choice 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.440 in them. Right. So on one level, it's a very 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.080 straightforward and simple parable, And once upon a time that 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.679 was how most people would answer it. More and more 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:24.240 now the answers are about how we need to embrace 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.479 and love our bad wolf, and I think that's an 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.160 insight that's important and useful. I'm not saying we shouldn't 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.120 be doing that. I do think we need to listen 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.160 to our feelings. I do think we need to hold 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.439 space for emotion all that stuff. But I agree with you, 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.800 I feel like the pendulum has just swung a little 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:45.720 bit too far in the direction of being a victim, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.160 of being traumatized, of not being able to do something, 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.680 away from empowerment. I mean, I don't think we want 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.320 to go back to something that's very extreme. And I 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.800 don't think my early days in AA were great, right. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.639 I had to actually move out of that for a 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.320 period of time where I was like, you know what, 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.120 they just keep saying, it doesn't matter what happened to you, 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.040 just act like a certain person. I was like, well, okay, 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.400 but at a certain point, certain level of healing, I'm 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.919 going to have to deal with what did happen to me. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.000 I have to deal with the trauma. I do have 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.280 to deal with the ways in which I didn't develop. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.240 So it does feel like the pendulum is a little 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.760 over too far, and I'm waiting to see it sort 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.840 of start to swing back because I feel like it will. 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:25.719 I think it has to. 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.040 I just hope it doesn't snap back right. So I 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.280 think it's, you know, let's kind of come back in 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.399 the middle, because I think that actually the answer is 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.919 it really is in the middle, right. It is a 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.040 case of like, yes, we'd need a really strong sense 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:44.040 of personal responsibility and accountability and a real focus on 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.280 like here's the right thing to do, here's the right action, 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.160 and we need to be compassionate and kind to ourselves 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.600 and others about the challenges that we faced and the 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.760 ways that we haven't developed. I think your work actually 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.400 strikes a pretty good balance between those two things, which 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.000 is partially why I wanted to talk to you. 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.240 I'm passionate about that balance. I mean, for years my 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.480 clients would probably tell you that balance was the word 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:09.160 that came out of my mouth the most. And we're complicated, 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.040 and it's something that I've had to work on accepting 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.199 in myself. I think most highly sensitive people walk the 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.240 world like, Hey, when are you going to accept me? 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.440 And then tell me that I'm okay? And it doesn't 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.320 work that way. If it did, I wouldn't be uttering 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.840 these things out of my mouth. What works is to 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.760 work on accepting who we are. So I had to 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:31.920 do a lot of work on hey, I'm an intensely 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.320 feeling person. Hey, I have had a lot happen to 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.879 me in my history. I have survived the abandonment of 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.119 one parent. I have survived the sexual abuse of another parent. 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.840 I have survived a mother that is a sociopath and 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.440