1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Jay dot Il a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: What's Up Everybody? It is always a pleasure to be 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: here with you. Welcome to Jay dot Illa Podcast. This 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: is Jail Scotty and I'm here with my sister friends 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: like Yah sat Cloud. Halleluj. That is me and age 6 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: a great dance. I will since since like he has said, 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: hallelu I will say I shay, this is great. I 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: mean and I'm in okay. I mean we're like a 9 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: little Hallelujah. Yes, never gets old. I find this particularly 10 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: appropriate on today because I've been looking forward so much 11 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: to having this conversation we're going to have today. I 12 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 1: have to make sure that I cover the basics because 13 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: we need to make sure y'all know who in fact 14 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: we're talking to today. Today we have a fabulous guest, 15 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: of course. His name is A Shan Crawley. He's a 16 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: writer and artist and teacher. He explorined the intersection of performance, blackness, queerness, 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: and spirituality. Associate Professor of Religious Studies and African American 18 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: Studies at University of Virginia is the author of Black 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: Pentecostal Breath, The Aesthetics of Possibility, and the lonely letters. Now, 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: I just want you to know, those are the receipts. 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: Are the receipts, Those are the receipts. We have to 22 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: put the receipts out there because that we all do. 23 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: You're googling, do your good when you do, you're good 24 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: good googling that you come up with what you need 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,279 Speaker 1: to happen, and everything is there. Okay. But the reason 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: why I love this person is because during the pandemic, 27 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: um My, my good, good girlfriend, Princess um call me 28 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: on the phone said, know you ain't got nothing to do. 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: They won't let you work, and the kids. Isn't the 30 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: driving you crazy? She like, I got a friend who 31 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: says you could sit in the back of his classroom 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: online and get this good Afrikaan of Studies Education. Now, 33 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: I won't put this info out. I told this story already, 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: but I don't want to get him in no trouble, 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: so I ain't gonna retell it. Y'all gonna have to 36 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: go back and listen to all the episodes set in 37 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: the back of this classroom. And we went through some 38 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: really amazing literature during that during that semester. But one 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: of the books was a Sean Crawley's book A Pentecostal Breath, 40 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: and I said, I just went down a rabbit hole really, 41 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: oh gosh, and we're gonna talk about this. But he 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: opened up my mind to something that he caused otherwise 43 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: possibilities and that for me, UM just touched me in 44 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: a in a deep place. So anyway, because y'all know 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: I like to be on the social media's, I end 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: up founding the shan on the social media's. We got 47 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: connected on that, found out we knew a bunch of 48 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: the same people people a people, I mean love loved 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: some of the same people. There you have it. God 50 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: did what God does, look okay, pull the right people 51 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: together so that they could be family and so that 52 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: we can all come together on this here podcast. So 53 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: ladies are gentleman's okay. I want you to look to 54 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: your neighbor, say neighbor, neighbor, welcome a Sean welcome, thank 55 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: you for the welcome. It's like hot yoga. I've been 56 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 1: going to hot yoga. We've had a black teacher, black 57 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: woman twice and she definitely said both times your right 58 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: and say I was like, oh, we're doing very black. Yeah, 59 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: church culture is black culture. Let's just get intoto it 60 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: it is what it is. It's nice to have an 61 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: expert that will sit here in ponto. Kate, Actually, you 62 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: know what I mean, That's what I just wanted to say. Well, 63 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about on the show about the 64 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: fact that church, you know though, the intention of church, 65 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: and then you know how much we all adore all 66 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: of the things out of our culture that come out 67 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: of church and what it does, and but I think 68 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: we all can relate in particular to that moment in 69 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: which it does not connect, that moment where the community 70 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: of church doesn't only just not connect, and not just church, 71 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: but many spiritual communities that at one point it doesn't connect, 72 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: and not only does it not connect, it causes harm 73 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: and that harm, the ripple effect of that harm, and 74 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: what it what it does to us as a community, 75 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: and how it serves at this antithesis to what church 76 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: is supposed to be about and what what we're even 77 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: supposed to do about it, you know, And so you know, 78 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: I guess we have to really begin with your background 79 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: and just like how does this, how does this really 80 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, touch you and influence your work? Thank you 81 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: all for having me on the podcast. It's um, thank 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: you for being here. It's it's it's a joy, it's 83 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: a joy. And I'm gonna tell I'm I'm gonna move backwards. 84 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: I will start by saying, no one has ever heard 85 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: this before. There was like a moment in the nineties, 86 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: and this will tell you about like my background. There's 87 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: a moment in the nineties when Erica Badu released On 88 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: and On. Most intellects don't believe in God, but they 89 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: fear us just the same. M I really loved the 90 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: sound of On and On. I was like, uh, that 91 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: don't that don't sound right to my good, good, good 92 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: Pentecostal Christian tears. There's something a little two five per 93 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: center up up in there now right about it. And 94 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: I remember the first time listen, I'm sorry to put 95 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: you on the spot. First time listening to A Long 96 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: Walk in the Park after Dark, finest spot for us. 97 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: The first verse talked about revelation. I was like, yes, Laura, 98 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: and then the second one was like sour, and I 99 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: was like wait, wait, wait, wait wait wait, that's not 100 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: there's something not Christian about this. And I remember the 101 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: first time really listening to Kindred the Family so and 102 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: like reading the liner notes, and I was like, wait, 103 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: I think they Muslim Christian Christians ain't saved. The a 104 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: Shan that you are meeting at forty two years old 105 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: is very different than the Ashan that I was at 106 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: the age of eighteen. I grew up in eastern New 107 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: Jersey and a household. My father is a preacher pastor 108 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: of Pentecostal church. My mother is a preacher, even though 109 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: in our organs Asian Church of God in Christ they 110 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: don't ordain women to be preachers because of sexism, UM, 111 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: but my mother is a preacher. My brother was the musician, 112 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: the Hammond organist for our church UM until he moved 113 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: away for college. I became the organist UM for the 114 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: church once he left. So I guess at the age 115 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: of fourteen I started playing. I moved to Philadelphia. I 116 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: tell people I moved to Philly to go to University 117 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania for undergrad and the first thing I did 118 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: when I moved to phillis by the church. I didn't 119 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: choose my classes. I didn't care about my classes. I 120 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure I had the church home, and 121 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: I needed a place that could take care of me. 122 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: I was very and I started the New Spirit of 123 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: penn which is the gospel choir at Universe of Pennsylvania. 124 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: They still sing today. And I was very much a 125 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: part of a very insular and doctrine there, but also 126 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: very musical Black Pentecostal church world. I loved it. Um. 127 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,559 Speaker 1: I love planting tambourine. I didn't love playing him in Oregon, 128 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: but I love directing choirs. Loved directing choirs, and I 129 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: love the sort of sound of Black church. There was 130 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: a lot of noisiness and Pentecostal churches. We made a 131 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: lot of noise when we prayed. We haven't made a 132 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: lot of noise when we shouted, dance, sinisphere, a lot 133 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: of noise when you speak in tones. I loved it. 134 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: There was nothing about like I would. I had a 135 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: great tape recorder and I would go to church concerts 136 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: and other church services that were not my home church, 137 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: and I would take my great tape record with me, 138 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: and some friends who did not know my name would 139 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: call me boy with the great tape recorder because I 140 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: always had a recorder so I could record the church services, 141 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: so I could listen to primarily the music and learn 142 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: from the music that I was listening to and so 143 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: I was in this very insular church world. But I 144 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: had friends at school who were very kind, lovely, I 145 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: love them, who were like not Christian and listening to 146 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: secular music, listening to hip hop, listening to things that 147 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: I've never heard before. And I was really, really really 148 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: drawn to a lot of what I was hearing, but 149 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: there was like words and things and concepts for God 150 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: that I was not acquainted with that I also felt like, 151 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: this is a this could be a problem. And so 152 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: the things that I would try to do is like 153 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: when I heard on and On, I would like trying 154 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: to change the I was like, oh, no, she's not 155 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: she could not be saying. So I'm gonna change the 156 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: words somehow to be something else that's I would like, 157 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: find some kind of Christian language that I felt like 158 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: was the thing she was really saying. And it's like 159 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: she wasn't saying it, but it was me trying to 160 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: like really force my structure of belief into something else, 161 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: even though the other thing was like trying to, you know, 162 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: push against my own understanding that was really limited and 163 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: really very much a problem, very mudy, and I remember 164 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: doing the same thing with lots of just lots and 165 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: lots of music. I could not when De'angelo's Food came out, 166 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: I could not listen to the album because it's like 167 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: voodoo samee, don't do that. Like this is like literally 168 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: I'm in college at this point and I'm still very 169 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: much like oh no, no, no, you know, you know, 170 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: I pray you do this. This is just who you 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: are on your inside. More real talk after the break. 172 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: When my maternal grandmother passed away the day of her funeral, 173 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: I was four years old. I woke up at like 174 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: six of the morning. Apparently I used to sleepwalk a lot. 175 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,719 Speaker 1: I woke up, got out of bed, walked to the 176 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: threshold of my parents door, screamed at them, we can 177 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: make it, and then I went back to sleep. And 178 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: my parents have told me several times, because my mother 179 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: was twenty eight at that time, she was really young. Um, 180 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: they told me that that is what allowed them to 181 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: get through the day. It's like four year old who 182 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: doesn't know what he's saying, kind of don't know what's happening, 183 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: but says this thing. And I think I've always had 184 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: like a very strong sense for the spiritual, but because 185 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: of the context under which I was having this strong 186 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: sense of the spiritual. It made it really really difficult 187 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: to figure out a relation to other spiritual practices that 188 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: were not my own because everything is sinful. And it 189 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: wasn't just like everything out there sinful, all the non 190 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: Christians are sinful. It's also like most of y'all in 191 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: here who go to church every week are also sinful. 192 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: For me, as like a five year old, six year old, 193 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: sevenyear old, it's like fine, but like you know, eight 194 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: years old, when you start to like be attracted to 195 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: people and you're like, why am I attracted to him? 196 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: Why am I attracted to him? Why am I attracted 197 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: to him? Uh? You start to also really feel that 198 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: the things that you're saying about other people being sinful 199 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: and heading to hell are also things that you're kind 200 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: of feeling about yourself, but you don't know how to 201 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: really express it. There's literally no one that you can 202 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: talk to. Uh. In the eighties and the nineties, there's 203 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: no one that you can say, hey, I feel really 204 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: really like queer. Please don't judge me, but can we 205 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: talk about so? Like you're carrying this strong sense of 206 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: spiritual sort of orientation, a deep desire to love God, 207 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: a deep love for the cultural practices of the Black Church, 208 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: which I still love today, but also this deep shame 209 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: that you can't really express. And in the eighties and 210 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: the nineties, at the same time, a lot of musicians, 211 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: choir directors, and singers are dying from AIDS, the AIDS crisis, 212 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: and you hear people talking very very negatively about these people, 213 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: but in like rumors and hushed conversation or through sermons 214 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: where they say very pejorative things, and you're like, oh, 215 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm one of these people they're talking about, 216 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: so I literally I can't say it. And also am 217 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: I gonna die like they're dying? I'm ten years old, 218 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm twelve years old, like trying to like processing you're 219 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: hearing this, You're ultimately hearing this in like your favorite 220 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: place to be, hearing in my favorite place to be, 221 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: And soon by the time you got to college, you 222 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: still would keep it. As much as you were trying 223 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: to shield your ears from what you were hearing your music, 224 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: you also were shielding your friends circle in that way 225 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: like your friends are school was any thinking the way 226 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: you think my friends So the curious thing I would 227 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: say about my friend circle when I was. When I 228 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: first arrived to University of Pennsylvania, my first week of UM, 229 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: there was a summer program for black students who, uh, 230 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: we're coming to the university was called a f MS 231 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: at that point, and I had met this black young 232 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: woman who made some joke about something and I'm gonna 233 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: call you Cookie. I don't remember the joke, but I 234 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: remember embracing the nickname. And I embraced the nickname. I 235 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: wrote about this a while ago. I embraced the nickname 236 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: because it could be a new identity for me. It 237 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: could be a way for me to establish myself where 238 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: people didn't know me because my parents didn't know me 239 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: because of the church, and I could like be my 240 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: own person. But the person that I became was like 241 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: the choir director the pussy church every week, the person 242 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: who who would like very explicitly into inentionally and I think, 243 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: with conviction, say it over like no, gay people are 244 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: going to hell if they don't say like very much 245 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: like in college. Oh yes. But I think I think 246 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: what's really important here is that and what I just 247 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: love that Shaun is talking about is that I think 248 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: a lot of times we have this, We we have 249 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: a real slender understanding of the fact that people can 250 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: be perpetrators of of hateful and anti you know, anti 251 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: energy that is really from a group that they belong to, 252 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: from their own identity. It's like this this thing that 253 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: we have this hard time understanding. We know from our politicians, 254 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: and we know it from our our preachers, and we 255 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: know it right, we see it. But I still think 256 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: we just have a hard time really kind of owning 257 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: that you can you can be black and be anti black. 258 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: You know. I feel like, and I I had a 259 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: series of random occurrences that I would be like that preacher, 260 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: like it's there's nothing special about you know, I don't 261 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: believe that. I think that we all are presented with 262 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: opportunities to make certain kinds of choices, and it's what 263 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: you do with the choices that you have. And I 264 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: went on the date maybe it was I went out 265 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: with someone uh black Friday of nineteen nine. He went 266 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: to Rutgers. I went to penn and so I was 267 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: home in New Jersey. We met on a well a 268 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: long time ago. We went out to some dinner, we 269 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: talked for like two hours. We went to a parking walker. 270 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: It's like like midnight, we walked around. I was in love, 271 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: he was not. Um we remained in loose contact. We 272 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: went out two thousands. So the next year Black Friday 273 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: again because I was home for Thanksgiving, and the first 274 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: time we went out, we talked about like both going 275 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: to church and having parents who were preachers, and just 276 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: literally the language of trying to get the just trying 277 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: to get it out of our systems so that you know, 278 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: by the age we can really be serious, get married, 279 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: have wives, children, and like totally like serious about And 280 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: the next year we went out and I said something 281 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: similar to what we were talking about the year previous, 282 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: and he said to me, oh, you still think being 283 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: gay as a sin question mark? And it was like, 284 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: what do you mean questions? Like it was never a 285 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: question for me. It was always, of course, it's sinful. 286 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: People that are like out and gay have just accepted 287 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: the fact that they're sinners, Like that was the way 288 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: that I thought about it. And this question really interrupted 289 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: not just the fact that someone could accept in quotes 290 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: their uh, queerness, but that for them it's not even 291 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: an accepted sort of idea that this thing could be sinful. 292 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: And so it actually opened up my mind to the 293 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: fact that oh, people think differently about this thing that 294 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: I thought, uh, everyone has sort of accepted. And so 295 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: having that experience was really it was a simple experience, 296 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: but it was really, I think a necessary experience for 297 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: me because it really pushed me to say, oh maybe, 298 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: and then I get kicked out of undergrad some people 299 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: know because I had low grades. I get back in. 300 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: I was still directing the school choir. We were asked 301 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: to sing for the Queer Week at University of Pennsylvania 302 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: before I started changing my ideas, and I said to 303 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: the board of the choir, we will not be singing 304 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: for them. This is a direct one because we do 305 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: not want to give them the impression that we are 306 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: okay with their sins. Like it's what I said. It's 307 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: very serious. It wasn't like and then I probably went 308 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: home and got on the party line and like try 309 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: to get aboy to come over to my part. Like 310 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: it's it was that kind of deep conviction about something 311 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: being wrong at the same time not really having any 312 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: like there are no real conversations that I'm having with 313 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: people that could interrogate what I'm thinking or my behaviors, 314 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: and like, I mean, so many people from churches on 315 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: a party like I used to call a party line 316 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: for you Philly people. Then it's called a part line 317 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: every night and I would stay on the party line 318 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: for hours, and I met a lot of people, and 319 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the people that I met in part 320 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: line I would go I was a musician for several 321 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: churches in Philly. I would go to a church playing 322 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: and I'd be like, oh, I know you eat by 323 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: you way, it's not even it isn't people as kind 324 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: of like you know this, sorry, sorry this one dude. 325 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm telling on myself. We hooked up 326 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: at my apartment. We met on the party line. I 327 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: went to a concert and I saw him at the 328 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: concert and he spoke to me, and I was so aghast, 329 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: how dare you speak to me? You center? I don't 330 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: know you like, yeah, whatever, I'm like, oh, like I 331 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: actually so, I'm also like a really uh how I 332 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: think what I'm I'm I think what I'm deeply deeply like, listen, 333 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: not only how old were you, but how do you then? 334 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: How do you? At some point I kind of reconcile 335 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: this moment with yourself because one of the things that 336 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: I love and I listened to you on another podcast 337 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: Wants talking to a group of young Christian people in 338 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: a young Christian group, and you just were able to 339 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: in this kind of beautiful way. And I know I'm 340 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: skipping a lot because I know this is not a 341 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: process that you can even really like compact, but I 342 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: feel like you have reconciled your love for this space, 343 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: like you've been able to um hold onto a such 344 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: a caring, meticulously caring like attitude towards church and towards 345 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: spiritual spaces and even the institution of it, you know 346 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: what I mean, and breaking down all the beautiful pieces 347 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: of it while still being really true to yourself and 348 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: honoring who you are. And I think that is a 349 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: dance that a lot of people really have a difficult 350 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: time with. And this just really go was into all 351 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: kinds of religions. But I think a lot of times 352 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: church just gets put on blast for this because it's 353 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: so directly associated with blackness. So as black people were like, 354 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: how do we do this? Because I look at you 355 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: and all with that because it's so it feels so honest. Well, 356 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: I mean it was not easy at all. I mean, 357 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: like you hear the things that I'm saying I wasn't 358 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: saying them. I wasn't saying them like jokingly. You were. 359 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: Your feet were insemented. I was serious, Like I was serious, 360 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: and I was mostly trying to prove to what I 361 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: thought God to me at that point. I'm not gonna cry, 362 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: but like that, I was serious. You try really hard 363 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: to say. No, I am trying to live this thing 364 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: that you all have told. You know, I write about 365 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: this in the Loneliness Book. Like I have never been 366 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: as lonely as I've been since I've come out, but 367 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: like I was also lonely, like when I was like 368 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: trying to live the very very Christian life that I 369 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: was told that I was supposed to live, and so 370 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: it was. It was it was not easy to begin 371 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: to have that person asked me that question at that dinner. 372 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: One thing I will credit my parents with is they 373 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: instilled in my brother and I a deep desire to 374 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: have integrity. That integrity was more important than like the 375 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: thing that you say is like the way that you 376 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: have to live. And you know, I tell this story 377 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: all the time. My mother she got saved at the 378 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: age of fourteen. She was in a school marching band 379 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: in North New Jersey. She went to the teacher the 380 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: next day and said, I can't be in the marching 381 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: band anymore. Why not? I can't wear pants anymore. I 382 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: got saved yesterday. I can't wear pants. And he said, okay, 383 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: you can practice with us. You'll get your grade based 384 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: on practice. You don't have to march when we do 385 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: the actual marching. And you know, I don't care about 386 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: people wearing pants or not. I don't think she cares 387 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: anymore about like wearing pants or not. She doesn't. But 388 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: like I remember, like we would go to Macy's when 389 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: I was younger. It was never like a question of 390 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: is she going to have an existential crisis about buying 391 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: a skirt today? No, it was like this is just 392 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: the thing that she does. It was never like a 393 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: question of is it hard for her to like not 394 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: wear pants. It was like, no, this is what I believe, 395 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: So this is what I do. And so like I 396 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: learned very early that you have to try to live 397 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: the thing that you say that you believe, or there's 398 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: a problem. And like the problem that I kept running 399 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: up against this we keep saying we believe this thing 400 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: about queer people, about women, about non Christians, but like 401 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: some of us have family who are not Christians, who 402 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 1: we love, who we are not in a paternalistic relation 403 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: to some of us have real deep relationships with people 404 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: who are queer that we are not trying to send 405 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: them to hell. Why are there all these queer people 406 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: in these churches? Still there was something that was you 407 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: enjoy like there was something it wasn't matching, and like 408 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: having this person said, oh, you still think it's simple. 409 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: And then you know, taking a class where the professor 410 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: is showing things about like black representation in the media, 411 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: you say that it's wrong. Latin next representation in media, 412 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: and you say that it's wrong women representations in media, 413 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: and you say, look at the consistency. It's not the same, 414 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: but there's some cleavages, there's some relations and the section 415 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: she does on queer people, you're like, oh, I can't. 416 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: I almost had an existential crisis in that class because 417 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: the responsive integrity is there's at least some consistency with 418 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: which the way people talk about queer people and the Bible, 419 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: which just the same way they talked about black people, 420 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: the same kinds of practices of marshal as they shan 421 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: it seems consistent, or I could just say, but the 422 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: Bible says this is sinful, so I can't accept what 423 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: she says. And instead I decided to do nothing. I 424 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: just didn't do the response the responses for the homework 425 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: for that section, and I refused to think about it. 426 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: And I wrote that professor years later to say I 427 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: had an extisential question in your class, but thank you 428 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: because that non date in two thousands, that class like 429 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: two years later, and like just like doing like research 430 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: on Yahoo because Google didn't exist at that point, and 431 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: like just reading things it made me start to say, well, 432 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: I actually don't know. I don't know if I can 433 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: say with conviction anymore that queerness is sinful. I can't 434 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: say that the Bible says these things. I'm not willing 435 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: to say those things anymore. And so it I was 436 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: really being pushed to really evaluate my own life world. 437 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: So I left they to acquire at the school. I 438 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: refused to play for them and to direct them anymore. 439 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: I still as a musician because I need the money, 440 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: but like I was trying to dive vest from a 441 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: lot of the spaces where I had leadership, public facing 442 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: leadership roles and churches because except for the organ because 443 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: I felt like I didn't want to like talk openly 444 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: about what I was questioning. But I also knew that 445 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: I could no longer accept the things that I was 446 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: saying in the in the times previous, just because when 447 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: did you feel comfortable with actually speaking out publicly about it, 448 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: like clearness, Yeah, when you've written these books and so 449 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: like when you're feeling like I'm I'm gonna go ahead 450 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: and say something about it, is there you know? I 451 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: don't I don't want to Hollywood, Like, is there a 452 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: switch that goes on, like, No, We're gonna take a 453 00:27:50,960 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: quick break and then we'll be right back. It seems 454 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: to me that that when we're brought up in any 455 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: particular religion, that we end up being in kind of 456 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: an envelope. The whole world is happening around us, but 457 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: we're inside this envelope, safe and sound, oh kind of. 458 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: And then when you grow up a little bit, when 459 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: you mature or and you're out in the world on 460 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: your own, you find out that not everybody who is 461 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: Muslim is in the tally band, you know, find out 462 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: that everybody that claims Christianity it is not a kind 463 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: there's some very very mean people that I've met in 464 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: life that claim because you know there, um, I definitely 465 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: remember the the stereotypes for sure. You know about church girls, 466 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: you know, being you know, um, all the things that 467 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: life preachers kids to being bad as hell, going being 468 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: an African American or being Latino or being Asian, um 469 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: and going to a different kind of church, or going 470 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: to a church and feeling feeling alienated because of your 471 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: race alienated or feeling alienated in your own church, Envine, 472 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: because I feel like also to like what we what 473 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: we what we hadn't really delved into. And this conversation 474 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: is really also about like when you're not in a 475 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: place that's foreign, when you're in the place that you 476 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: came to be, you want to be there, and you 477 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: yourself fure feeling are the person who's feeling feeling isolated, 478 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: And the conversations and the interactions that you're having with 479 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: people in your spiritual space as supposed to be your 480 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: safe space, that ends up being not safe. And I 481 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: think that's that's a good question. That's a good question. Yeah, Sean, 482 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean you too, as you know in your church, 483 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: uh from church. So I've had lots of church. I 484 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: know church well, Yeah, I know church well, so I 485 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: know them both. But I'm curious in that moment, like 486 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: what do you like in retrospect, now that you have 487 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: all this knowledge and this experience, Like what do you 488 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: tell that person? Do you tell that person and maybe 489 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: you need to find a new church home, or do 490 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: you tell that person to just you know, accept people 491 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: for who they are? What do you do? Oh see, 492 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: that's I mean for me, that's complished, complicated. Some day 493 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: I want to say no, Like community is struggle, and 494 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: like it's not to romanticize struggle at all, but it's 495 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: like being with people that are different from you, as 496 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: being with people that are different from you, and it's hard, 497 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: and like it's not always easy, and like it's about 498 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: what you can make together in the space and the 499 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: time that you're together and don't allow for like harm 500 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: to happen to you. But like community doesn't mean agreement, 501 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: and so like I think, you know, we exist in 502 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: the moment of community and that's supposed to collapse with agreement, 503 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: so everyone doesn't agree. But then also like I'm not 504 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to go too far with that though, 505 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: because it's like but yeah, like, if you're going to 506 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: question my person who might act like, you know, queerness, 507 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: like I actually like there are things that I do 508 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: not do anymore, Like I don't go to certain kinds 509 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: of churches. I'm grown. I went to somebody's shirts that 510 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: was around the corner for me in North Carolina when 511 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: I lived there, and like, I sat down and as 512 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: soon as I sat down, the pastor preachers started saying 513 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: something about day people, I want the keys, and I 514 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: walked out. I was like, I don't have to do this. 515 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: I'm I'm grown, and so like I feel, I feel 516 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: that sometimes it's my answer would be, you know, struggle 517 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: and other times like not get out. And I think 518 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: that both of those are actually necessary because both of 519 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: those will continue to UM. I think for me, there 520 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: were there were two things that happened that increased the 521 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: intensity of my sort of loud this about UM my 522 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: different ways of thinking about queerness. And one was my 523 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: last year and undergrad I spent every day with this 524 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: boy uh sitting on the couch in one of the 525 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: dorms and we would talk for hours, like every day, 526 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: and we became really really close. And then I got 527 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: drunk one night and my friends took my phone and 528 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: called to him and said, you know, he's in love 529 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: with you, right, And his response to that was I'm 530 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: not gay. And it really caused for me a problem 531 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: because I said, this is I can't feel this way 532 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: about someone and have felt this way, and it was definitely, 533 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: you know, more than flirty. Everyone noticed it, but like, 534 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: I can't do this and that person at least not 535 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: know who I am and who he is, and and 536 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: I need to also like be willing to like start 537 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: saying who it is that I am. And so that 538 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: was a real transformative moment for me, I really and 539 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: it was so transformative that I wrote an article for 540 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: the school newspaper that was about our cans or like 541 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: homophobia is an expression of sexism, and it was my 542 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: first time writing anything about sexuality at all. Of it 543 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: was mostly like you can't go backwards now, Sean like 544 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: and like, I I don't know why I wanted to 545 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: do it that way, but it was so public that 546 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't I couldn't recant it. It had to be there. 547 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: And so that was like one emphatic moment of really 548 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: just just trying to say I've been thinking a lot 549 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: of these things for a long time now, I've been 550 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: having conversations, I've been reading things. It's time to like 551 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: say something that's like the churchy Pentecostle of me, like 552 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: you gotta be both have holy bothus so and then 553 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: like two thousand four elections really messed with me. I 554 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: was a musician for a church on the second parish. 555 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: I'll say your name if you want, uh, And I 556 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: was I was a musician, and I was the director 557 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: of the youth choir. And the two thousands of four 558 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: elections when George bush Um was running on family value 559 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: and there was so much and stuff right and the 560 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: Defensive Marriage Act, Defensive Marriage Act, and uh. I remember, like, 561 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,959 Speaker 1: so I've graduated fro undergrad and I started my little 562 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: online magazine with me and some people. He was writing things, 563 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: and I was writing about queerness a little bit. But 564 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: we had a like a circulation of like five people. 565 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: All five of my friends would read it, so no 566 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: one was reading it. But like I was trying to 567 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: like process a lot of things that I was reading 568 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: and trying to think about. And the Thursday before the election, 569 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: there was a prayer that the pastor said we were 570 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: going to have instead of church service. And as the 571 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: elders were praying, they were saying, Lord, we know this 572 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: election is about it's not about the economy, it's not 573 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: about war. It's about the family. We need to save 574 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: the family. And I said, this is a problem. And 575 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: so I wrote the pastor and I said, we are 576 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: a nonprofit organization and we took a political position tonight, 577 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: and unless you want to UM get sued, we should 578 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: probably give a balanced view of other options for people 579 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: to vote for. And so I handed out material after 580 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: church on that Sunday UM for other people that they 581 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: could vote for that perhaps UM had more progressive policies 582 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: that would actually be useful for people in West Philadelphia 583 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: as opposed to this defensive marriage ack and got into 584 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: arguments with people in the basement of the church. It 585 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: was mind belowing because the queer people at the church, 586 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: we're the ones argument. It was fascinating. The the election night, 587 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: we had praising rehearsal and someone walks in and goes 588 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: down in praise team rehearsal. It's the worst, it's the worst. 589 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: And he walks in, he puts his fists in the 590 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: air and he says, I made a vote for the 591 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,439 Speaker 1: family to day, I voted for Bush, and I said, 592 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: in my head, I gotta go. I I said, this 593 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: is I can no longer ethically like in the Donnie 594 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: McClerkin of it all, I don't know. And then it 595 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: turned out I can't say too much. They already know. 596 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I really don't already said too much. 597 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: But any the person had their own complicated, slash violent story, 598 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: violence that they acted on other people because they wanted 599 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: to pretend that queerness isn't a thing that lives within them. 600 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: And so you know, I left the church in two 601 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: thousand five. I went to seminary. Years later, I find 602 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: out about stuff that's happening. And the funniest part of 603 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: all of this to me is they will still think 604 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: that I am the center, and people who have repented 605 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: are like, I'm just like this is and so like it. 606 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: It took a series of being quiet, like have a 607 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: very um quick temper, and I also responded to everything 608 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: without thinking. I was a think later person, and I 609 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: embarrassed myself enough by saying something first and then thinking 610 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: about it later. I said, maybe you should just shut up, 611 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: And so really I became introverted. I really I used 612 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 1: to be an E. M. T. P. On the Myers 613 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: brig and I like I'm an Ie or something like that, 614 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: but like I am introverted. And part of that was 615 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: a response to like really trying to like sit and 616 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: think as opposed to just allow what other people will 617 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: say to be the thing that I say, or the 618 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: things that other people believe be the thing that I believe. 619 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: It really took like a lot of like stillness, and 620 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: I think I can try to practice something like compassion 621 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: because I fundamentally recognized I could be somewhere else doing 622 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: something else right now and be deeply unhappy and be 623 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: practicing a kind of unethical behavior that I find abhorrent. 624 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: Because I had certain kinds of opportunities and I got 625 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: into certain kinds of doors, and I made a certain 626 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: kind of set of choices within those contexts. But I 627 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: also could be someone who was really like publicly homophobic 628 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: and really hates himself and really like tell other people 629 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: that they like That could also be me. And I mean, 630 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: I've met so many of those folks, and some of 631 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: them I used to call friends, and so like I 632 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: recognized that kind of struggle and because I recognize it. 633 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: I don't ever want to be dismissive while also being 634 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: very clear like these are my ethics, this is who 635 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: I am. But I also love like the noise of 636 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: Black Church. That's something I am. I'm not giving up. 637 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: It's it's something that I I think is it has 638 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: transformative capacity. But also it's something that hasn't been fully 639 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: honored because I think these musicians who died in the 640 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: eighties and the nineties UM are an example of the 641 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: kind of unkindness we can do to one another in community. 642 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: As they are creating things for us, we can still 643 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: be unkind to them. And so really trying to create 644 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: contexts right in that context, make art in that context. 645 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: That's about trying to to really compel a reckoning with 646 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: the past. And to to to reckon with the past 647 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: for me, means that you can't be um this passionate 648 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: and you can't be dismissive because you have to try 649 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 1: to understand contexts under which people make certain kinds of choices. 650 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: As you speak about artists. It also made me think 651 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: of during that time the population of black men who 652 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: aren't living their truth who actually died because of that, 653 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: and other people died in the process because of that 654 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: as well, Like we don't even talk about that when 655 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,879 Speaker 1: it comes to black men. That was that it's hard 656 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: to talk about. Yeah, it's hard to talk because there 657 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: is so much shame, and you know, the shame isn't 658 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: just for folks that go to church, Like that's the thing. 659 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: It's like, it's a kind of because black. My my 660 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: friend Jay Perry would say, black culture is churchy culture, 661 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: and churchy does not mean Christian, and like it's like 662 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: the conflation of churchy with Christian of actually is a 663 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: big problem that we have. But like, because black culture 664 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: is so I think culturally churchy, sometimes that does for 665 00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: a lot of people conflict with the kind of feel 666 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: out cool orientation or doctrinal understanding of like a gender 667 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: um sex um pleasure, sexuality. I'm sorry, but I was 668 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: gonna ask you, but I know I didn't know when 669 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: they're coming in with this question. But because you've had 670 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 1: so many studies in the area, I'm always fascinated because 671 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: I never I never called myself a religious person. I 672 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: called myself more a spiritual person because I always get 673 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: stuck in the the thoughts of how it became our 674 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: religion and how you know, we didn't come here with that, 675 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: And at some point it feels like, is that the 676 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: one thing we thank the white man for that I 677 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: don't know, like it just I don't I don't mean 678 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: and how it doesn't sound uneducated it's to you, but 679 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: like and you're trying, like how do you how does 680 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: it direct? How do you erect this where we we 681 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: know the history, you know, that's the that's the trickiest part. 682 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: And we can say the same thing about Islam. But 683 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: right you know, we're gonna we're gonna knock your teeth out, 684 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna cut your foot off. You don't you don't 685 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,280 Speaker 1: learn these ways. You know we're going to do something 686 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: terrible to your body or to your mind. So it's 687 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 1: the way we live under this book. It's so sometimes 688 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: it it's weird to me because I'm like, wow, we 689 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: really took this and it but oh I'm sorry. You know, 690 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: to be rigid at one point was the distinction between 691 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: being like pious as as opposed to like loosen these 692 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: in these spiritual streets, you know, So it's like my 693 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: my rigid, how rigid I am? Is how you distinguish 694 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: me from the righteous? And the not righteous, and I 695 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: think and and and the show you could it was 696 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: wrong the first place, right, but but you know, and 697 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 1: then I mean, you know, we could talk Ethiopia. We 698 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: could talk a lot of stuff in terms of like, 699 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, the history of of you know, and and 700 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. That there, Africa is still Africa. 701 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: Everything still came from there. Africa's Africa's Okay, what I'm 702 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: saying or my understanding from some of what Shan was saying, 703 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: I want to make sure that we don't get too 704 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: far from it, because I really want to speak on it. 705 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: Is that he talked about that Churchy versus Christian. The 706 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: whole thing is that so even though our grandmothers may 707 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: have right, so even though our grandparents may have gotten 708 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: this rigid versus Christian right, what we're seeing now is 709 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: this this really social phenomenon around churchy and what that means, 710 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: and that if I look this way, if I dressed 711 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: this way, if I speak these words, if I have 712 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: this stone, if I do this thing, if I if 713 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: I present, if I do this performance, that this performance 714 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: is to be Christian as opposed to that. And I 715 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: just and and I also want a Shan to expound 716 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: on that. But I also want to ask you a 717 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: question about this thing of our compassion, like the passion 718 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: of compassion, like how passionate are you about your search? 719 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: And or or should we be in our search for compassion? 720 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 1: What space in our like religious institutions, is there space 721 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: in there for that? Are we really talking about this 722 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: this trying to seek out how compassionate we can really be? 723 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,399 Speaker 1: You got all that, Sean, We need you to talk 724 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: about all of that was that was three things. That 725 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: was three things. That was the churchy thing and then 726 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: the whole thing about compassion, and then that was the 727 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,879 Speaker 1: history thing that I asked about too. So in the history, Yeah, 728 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: I totally want to know, how do you find at home? 729 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 1: How do you find a church home when you you know, 730 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 1: I don't go to church no more, I don't. I don't. 731 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: So like I left church and tooth, so I went 732 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: to seminary and tooth that so when I left the 733 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: church in Philly, I took literally I took the midnight 734 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: train from three History station to Georgia and I went 735 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: to seminary in Atlanta. And my first year I was 736 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: I was a chaplain at the Metro State Prison for women, UM, 737 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: and we were supposed to conduct their church service weekly 738 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: and also pray with they gave They gave us a 739 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: woman to meet with weekly for counseling. And my the 740 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: person I met with weekly said to me one week, 741 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: I like you because you don't pray, said thank you, 742 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: and uh she she asked me, are you gay? I 743 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: said yeah, I am. She was like, that's why I 744 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: like it. So we had to preach the sermons. I preached. 745 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: The sermon that's the last sermon I ever preached was 746 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: at one of the church services UM at Metro State 747 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 1: Prison for Women. I left that program because I felt 748 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: it was unethical what we were doing. Um, I'm a 749 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: prison abolitionist, and UM I found it. I didn't have 750 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: the language. I had not read prison I listeners at 751 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: that point, but I felt that there was something really 752 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: wrong with asking us to come in every Sunday have 753 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: a prayer service. Everybody's not Christian, but still everything that 754 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: we're doing for them is very very not just Christians 755 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: because Catholics are Christians. It's like, no, this is a 756 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: very specific kind of eat black pentecostal ish, nondenominational ish 757 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: practice of of of Christianity. That we're doing for the 758 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: women every week, and I had to. I had to 759 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: leave it because it felt unethical and so that was 760 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: me really leaving church. And I haven't since really sought 761 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 1: too hard for a church home. It's not something that 762 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: I look for. What the Black Church does well, and 763 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,359 Speaker 1: what it historically did well was provide space. Literally, It's 764 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 1: like it's a space that you could go um weekly 765 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: sometimes I was daily. You knew it would be open, 766 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: you knew that they would have resources. You knew that 767 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: you could like come and sing music, you could learn things. 768 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: The quire don't sound good, it don't matter, Like you're 769 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: still gonna go to choire rehearsal, You're still gonna try 770 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: to learn. Like it became a form of gathering in 771 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,400 Speaker 1: community with others that you knew was available. And I 772 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: think that the availability of the space and what it 773 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: provided in terms of like social community actually got conflated 774 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: with the doctrines of certain churches to say that because 775 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: the space was provided, the doctrines of the church must 776 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: be right, and so that rigidity is actually a miss. 777 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,759 Speaker 1: It seems to me a misunderstanding of what it was 778 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: actually offering. That rigidity is a refusal to actually understand 779 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: that what, more than anything, what the church was providing 780 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: with space. I think that had it been another tradition 781 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: that offered that same kind of space and that kind 782 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: of regularity of gathering, then it would be that other 783 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,719 Speaker 1: kind of thing as opposed to church as the sort 784 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: of dominant. And I think that the thing that people 785 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 1: like me laugh is a place to go where that 786 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: kind of regularity, where people know you'll just show up 787 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 1: and you'll do the things, and you'll be there with 788 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: the people, and you'll learn things, and you'll grow together, 789 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: and you'll argue with each other, you won't like each other, 790 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: and you'll find a new one. But like it's there's 791 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: something really uh that's community because it's not about agreement, 792 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: it's about like being together and finding things together, and 793 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: so like inconsistency. And so I think that the rigidity. 794 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,720 Speaker 1: Um I often wonder if I am just as rigid, 795 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,359 Speaker 1: but just now in in another direction. I'm really really 796 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,320 Speaker 1: rigid about like prison abolition. I'm really really rigid about queerness. 797 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm really really rich about loving black people. And I'm 798 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: really not gonna have been do that kind of stuff, 799 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,360 Speaker 1: and you know I don't, but I don't want it 800 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: to feel or be doctrine there in the way that 801 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: you know when I was a young person. I mean, 802 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 1: y'all going to help, that's okay, that's what you're gonna do, 803 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: like and just being very much like, that's that's you. 804 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,399 Speaker 1: That's the decision that you have made. And so trying 805 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: to not be rigid, but also trying to still have 806 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: a sense of consistency. And it feels really important to 807 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: me to to try to to try to do that. 808 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: I forgot the other two classes. I'm sorry, it's all good. 809 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: I just I feel like the way that we interact 810 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: with each other has to have like a consistent baseline. 811 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,760 Speaker 1: And when we're talking about when we talk about belief 812 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: and we talk about you know, um, what kind of 813 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: binds us together in spirit that if it's absent of um, 814 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,479 Speaker 1: you know, compassion and like you said, you you feel 815 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,160 Speaker 1: like those are things you're original and I'm rigid about compassion. 816 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: The thing to be rigid about should be like a 817 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: can I just say, okay, I remember one thing I 818 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,880 Speaker 1: wanted to say. I wanted to say that Philly was 819 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: a really important city for me to be in when 820 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: I was having my various existential crisis because Philly is 821 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: also the first place I have ever lived where I 822 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 1: was meeting consistently people who are variously identified spiritually, and 823 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: also it being a really black Muslim city. Like I 824 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: remember meeting an organist and I was like, oh, you 825 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,239 Speaker 1: play really good? Did you grow up kajak for Church 826 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,880 Speaker 1: of Ditton Christ And he responded and said I'm a 827 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: Pentecostal Muslim and kept walking and I said, that doesn't 828 00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: make any sense, and yet, welcome to Philly. I went 829 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: on a date with someone and we were arguing at 830 00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 1: the table about he's Jehovah's Witness and Muslim, and it's 831 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: like I was real Pentecostal still at that point, and 832 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: like neither one of us thinks we're going to heaven? 833 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: Were we both think we're going to Hell. We're defending 834 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: our spiritual practices very very deeply, while at the same 835 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,760 Speaker 1: time like also flirting with each other. It was fastest 836 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: and like Philly is, you know. I was a musician 837 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: for two churches with um women pastors. One was really big. 838 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: There were many churches in Philly with women pastors that 839 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: have big congregations, which I had never been in the 840 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: city before. With this kind of religious complexity. I was 841 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: gonna say, it's a few queer congregations as well, and 842 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,800 Speaker 1: Philly that are really kind of dope and special. I 843 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,960 Speaker 1: was playing for one church and we had gone, uh, 844 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,600 Speaker 1: and she had gone to preach at this other church, 845 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: and they were announcing this person who was going to 846 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,879 Speaker 1: be preaching in a couple of weeks, and I knew. 847 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: I said, well, that pastor is a lesbian and she's out. 848 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,759 Speaker 1: She has an open of the firm, And I said, 849 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,800 Speaker 1: what kind of church are we? Yeah, it was Philly 850 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: is for me, uh, such an important zone to think 851 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: about the spiritual practices of black folks. And I think 852 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: being there and seeing and being a part of that 853 00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 1: kind of deep complexity, like literally going to church with 854 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 1: folks who was like shouting one day and I was like, 855 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: well I just took the shado so and you're like 856 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 1: the next day. But it was like it was it was. 857 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,560 Speaker 1: I think it was necessary though, because it really was 858 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 1: able to finally dislodge me from this idea that one 859 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: Pentecostals are the only church people. Church people are the 860 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 1: only ones that are saved maybe saved. It's not a 861 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: thing that you even need because what does that concept 862 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 1: actually do? But like it was the first place that 863 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: compelled me, forced me to confront a lot of the 864 00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 1: accepted realities because I was looking at things but this 865 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,800 Speaker 1: is like I'm saying, this is reality, but what is 866 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,479 Speaker 1: happening doesn't cohere with what I'm saying, And like having 867 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: to deal with that and like a real place was 868 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: really difficult, but it was a real It was a real, real, 869 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,880 Speaker 1: real gift And I'm really thankful um for having that 870 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:27,319 Speaker 1: kind of confrontation in that kind of place. More conversation 871 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:45,279 Speaker 1: after the break. What I'm gathering is that stillness is 872 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: important m writing too, because you know, typically we're all 873 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,279 Speaker 1: by ourselves with our pins, you know, or you know, 874 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,799 Speaker 1: our computers or whatever. Where we're typically by ourselves. It's 875 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:05,239 Speaker 1: just our thoughts on paper, and paper tends to you know. 876 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,359 Speaker 1: I I say this that when you know you write 877 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:13,400 Speaker 1: it down, it becomes real. Yeah. So in these moments 878 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: when you or I, anybody, all of us, we're trying 879 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,319 Speaker 1: to figure out our way because we've been so um 880 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: indoctrinated by our parents and our community um about what 881 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:34,880 Speaker 1: is right. UM. We we realized that there is no 882 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:42,759 Speaker 1: absolutes when it comes to uh a church or community. 883 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: You know, Um, there's no absolutes were really multidimensional as people. 884 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: There's there's so many flavors in one person that is 885 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:58,280 Speaker 1: is really not fair to um to uh put folks 886 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,200 Speaker 1: in boxes. The boxes are unhealthy for us in my opinion. 887 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,279 Speaker 1: And eventually, if you manage to travel a little bit, 888 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,840 Speaker 1: if you manage to have conversations with with other people, 889 00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 1: with just other people, sometimes it's got to bust. Sometimes 890 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,239 Speaker 1: it's on a flight, Sometimes it's just in the in 891 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,520 Speaker 1: the market or in the mall, you know, having a 892 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,000 Speaker 1: conversation with someone. Um if if if those things open 893 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:29,920 Speaker 1: our minds, and ultimately it's up to us to own 894 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 1: ourselves and to not um box ourselves in and beat 895 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:42,080 Speaker 1: ourselves up because because sometimes it's that's the way it 896 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: seems that the church community is it's abusive. I know, 897 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: I know, I'm not supposed to say that. That's the 898 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,600 Speaker 1: way it looks to me, it looks like that's the 899 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: way it feels too, that it can be very abusive. 900 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: And that's compassion thing you're talking about. It seems like 901 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,320 Speaker 1: the winner. Where is the compassion, Where's the kindness, where's 902 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 1: the love? Where's the understanding that we we all are sinners. 903 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:16,959 Speaker 1: Um right Am I am? I making example? Well, would 904 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,439 Speaker 1: also say that is by telling you that you are wrong, 905 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,680 Speaker 1: But the things that they tell you that you're wrong about, 906 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:24,800 Speaker 1: I would rather say, whould tell me what my sin is? 907 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,320 Speaker 1: I was like, the thing about is that because this 908 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,400 Speaker 1: is something we all think about so much in our 909 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:39,360 Speaker 1: private spaces, and it's so hard to just be really 910 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,279 Speaker 1: honest about what we're actually thinking because I think it's 911 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: one of the last things that we struggle with being 912 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,800 Speaker 1: truly honest about because we're really afraid of what people 913 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,720 Speaker 1: will say and what they will think about us because 914 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 1: and and and I don't know what the because it is, 915 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 1: but I do know that that is very true and 916 00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,920 Speaker 1: that Um. So when we do have questions and we 917 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,040 Speaker 1: when we are really trying to trust our own instincts, 918 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:07,040 Speaker 1: it becomes an argument within ourselves. First, um, because there's 919 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,360 Speaker 1: that voice inside you that's consistently saying, well, no, you 920 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,160 Speaker 1: can't think about that, because if you think about that, 921 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:13,880 Speaker 1: then you're going down that road you're not supposed to 922 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,200 Speaker 1: go down. And you know what we did that it's 923 00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,480 Speaker 1: gonna end up boom in this place You've been trying 924 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: to avoid ever since you ever started learning about your 925 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,040 Speaker 1: relationship with God. And I think there's this thing that 926 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,880 Speaker 1: that that inner argument is the first one and it 927 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: is the last one. You know, it is the one 928 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,960 Speaker 1: that starts the whole process, and it's the one that 929 00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 1: ends that process or transforms that process in the very end. 930 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,080 Speaker 1: And I know that that's why many of them, I 931 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,320 Speaker 1: know why this is a hard conversation for us to have, 932 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,960 Speaker 1: because I know that we're all still having that conversation 933 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,080 Speaker 1: within ourselves at least I know that I am. You 934 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,960 Speaker 1: know what I mean. But I really encourage everybody, if 935 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,120 Speaker 1: I had anything to say, will be encourage everyone to 936 00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 1: really be honest in that conversation with yourself as much 937 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,479 Speaker 1: as possible. Because the thing is that what a Sean 938 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: has told you again and again is that you can't 939 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,919 Speaker 1: have this dual existence and justify it for a very 940 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,840 Speaker 1: long time if you are unhappy and if you're not 941 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,560 Speaker 1: being honest in the conversation having with the self, and 942 00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 1: then it really it really begins there. And the compassion 943 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,360 Speaker 1: that we're talking about, that passionate compassion and starts with 944 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,000 Speaker 1: the self too. Yeah, you must be compassionate to the self. 945 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 1: If you're ever going to walk into an institution of 946 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 1: any sort and love the person who you are and 947 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,840 Speaker 1: not allow anything that is said has done in that 948 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 1: institution to define you. If you have not had that 949 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:49,240 Speaker 1: important conversation with yourself, it is just essential, and you 950 00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,919 Speaker 1: will set yourself up for others to hurt you. You will, 951 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:57,280 Speaker 1: you will get harmed otherwise, No, no, please, you see 952 00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,840 Speaker 1: we were saying, I just want to say really quickly. 953 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,840 Speaker 1: I had a friend years ago who once I started 954 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:08,000 Speaker 1: like thinking differently about sexuality, he was also a church kid. 955 00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:10,440 Speaker 1: I would tell him like, well, I don't think the 956 00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,120 Speaker 1: Bible actually says that, and Hebrew doesn't say that in Greek. 957 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 1: And he would say to me explicitly, don't talk to 958 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,120 Speaker 1: me about that. I don't want to hear it. And 959 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,800 Speaker 1: his his reason was if I and he said it, like, 960 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,360 Speaker 1: if I find out that I was wrong about that 961 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,680 Speaker 1: and what the church said about that, when will it end? 962 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 1: Because I don't know how far I'll have to go 963 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,200 Speaker 1: to figure out maybe like everything that I thought that 964 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,480 Speaker 1: I believe is wrong, and I'm just I don't want 965 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,120 Speaker 1: to have to deal with that kind of impact and 966 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,760 Speaker 1: I'd rather not think about it at all, And so 967 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,400 Speaker 1: I do think that we have to be willing to 968 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,760 Speaker 1: ask ourselves those questions. And like Jill was saying, you 969 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,160 Speaker 1: have to, like if you if you can't ask it, 970 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,680 Speaker 1: maybe write it down with a pen or use your 971 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 1: cell phone and send yourself a note. But like like 972 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,200 Speaker 1: try to like at least at least be honest with 973 01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,479 Speaker 1: yourself because you know, I also I still it's a place. 974 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,120 Speaker 1: It's a place that has compassion too. That's the thing. 975 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,439 Speaker 1: Like it also taught me how to love. It taught 976 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 1: me how to ask questions and actually being in church 977 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: taught me leadership skills. Literally, like they said, do this 978 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,280 Speaker 1: church service and I was fifteen and I said, okay. 979 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,240 Speaker 1: Like it taught me so much about how to be 980 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,960 Speaker 1: a person who loves myself. Like and that's the thing 981 01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:34,520 Speaker 1: I struggled with loving myself. I didn't like myself. But 982 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,400 Speaker 1: like you know, I've been singing my whole life. Um, 983 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,680 Speaker 1: and I'm not happy about that part. But I really, actually, really, 984 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,560 Speaker 1: really really the one thing I don't question is if 985 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,440 Speaker 1: I love myself and if I am kind to myself. 986 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,160 Speaker 1: But like I think that it is it's so hard 987 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,800 Speaker 1: to hold the need for this kind of compassion because 988 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,920 Speaker 1: to begin to ask any of these questions, it can 989 01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,880 Speaker 1: uncovered so much. But I think there's so much beauty 990 01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,760 Speaker 1: that is possible to be discovered in the uncovering if 991 01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,919 Speaker 1: we are in certain kinds of communities that will hold 992 01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,520 Speaker 1: us and care while we are doing that kind of 993 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: uncovered work. So I believe suppression is the brother sister 994 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:32,800 Speaker 1: of depression. Yes, And what's what's my favorite? One of 995 01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,960 Speaker 1: my favorite lines is running ain't gonna save you? Hm? 996 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,680 Speaker 1: So true? M can you tell to a couple of 997 01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:47,040 Speaker 1: boys I know trying to run, running ain't gonna say it? 998 01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 1: Doesn't say nah, this is this is your right, this 999 01:01:51,760 --> 01:02:00,200 Speaker 1: is This is such a tough conversation because wow, I mean, yeah, 1000 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,080 Speaker 1: we can see all the disparities. It could see them. 1001 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,760 Speaker 1: They're they're bold, they're they've they've got um neon around 1002 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:17,240 Speaker 1: the captions. We could see it all and pretending that 1003 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,920 Speaker 1: it's not there. I'm not I cannot see how it 1004 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,800 Speaker 1: benefits us. I'm not sure. I love the idea that 1005 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,160 Speaker 1: there's a community. I love the fact that that they're 1006 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:35,720 Speaker 1: sharing of information that building the community. I think I 1007 01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that. I think I like that part. But and 1008 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,080 Speaker 1: that's the part you take to go to church. And 1009 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,880 Speaker 1: I'm not. I never called myself a Christian, but I 1010 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,440 Speaker 1: shout out to Pastor Waller Alfred Street Baptis over the 1011 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,200 Speaker 1: n d C. I mean, because past the wall to 1012 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 1: be given the good sermons and sometimes I just need 1013 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,760 Speaker 1: a little motivation and whatnot. But you know, I still say, 1014 01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:00,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, I haven't picked my squad. Squad is 1015 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,560 Speaker 1: just me and the Lord, my relationship. That's me in 1016 01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:07,200 Speaker 1: the Lord. And I picked my squaw. That sound sound 1017 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,560 Speaker 1: pretty squad deep to me, Like yeah, me and the Lord, 1018 01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:11,320 Speaker 1: we're tight. And then my grandma because she got my 1019 01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,720 Speaker 1: back up dead. So you know, it's like us three traditionally, 1020 01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, I say what's up to him and her? 1021 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 1: And there were good yeah, but you know, I'm agnostic, 1022 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,360 Speaker 1: but I listened to Therenda Clark Coles, I am still 1023 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,920 Speaker 1: here became like, look, I actually there was a lot 1024 01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,320 Speaker 1: that was trying to conspire against my being here in 1025 01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,600 Speaker 1: this world today, and like a lot that could have 1026 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, taking me out. Most of it was in 1027 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,200 Speaker 1: the church, and like, I'm but I'm still here, and 1028 01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm really thankful that I'm still here. And so like 1029 01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:46,800 Speaker 1: sometimes it's like the sermon has the message, the song 1030 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,920 Speaker 1: has the message. Tell you right now, I shout, I 1031 01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: shout because I'm not listen. I'm gonna tell you right 1032 01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,800 Speaker 1: now that that that one thing about that touches me 1033 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:05,919 Speaker 1: is that is that dance. Shout right there, that right there, 1034 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,320 Speaker 1: because I will find a corner and get it out. Okay, 1035 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,640 Speaker 1: you know it is what it is. I think we 1036 01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,920 Speaker 1: all know where the spirit and the energy connects. And 1037 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,640 Speaker 1: the shouting the windings, that's where it comes from. The 1038 01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:30,120 Speaker 1: shouting the winding stems systems. Yes, that's real. I mean, 1039 01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,480 Speaker 1: that's the argument of black film, costal breath. It's literally dark. 1040 01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:38,400 Speaker 1: It's like, this is the this is the thing. Yes, 1041 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,720 Speaker 1: that's the consistency that whatever, all the things that we've 1042 01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,920 Speaker 1: brought in our in our bodies, in our DNA, they 1043 01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,520 Speaker 1: are still very very relevant. They still occur, all of it, 1044 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,880 Speaker 1: and we need it, still need it, We need it still. 1045 01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:57,560 Speaker 1: I ain't following all the brules though, y'all got that. 1046 01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:02,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm good on the rule. You know. 1047 01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:07,440 Speaker 1: I like my parents. I likes my parents and my 1048 01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,640 Speaker 1: sex before marriage or else, I would have never had 1049 01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:17,840 Speaker 1: no sex. Hello, not sex before marriage. I put that 1050 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 1: on as a prescription because I know too many people. 1051 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,800 Speaker 1: People held out and they made And I'm glad you 1052 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,800 Speaker 1: know to people because I don't know a single solitary one. 1053 01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:33,800 Speaker 1: I know several. I don't know what. You know. You 1054 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:36,600 Speaker 1: got j W homies, so you know, first squad, this 1055 01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:41,080 Speaker 1: is true. Yeah, this is true. Yeah, I'm telling you 1056 01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,640 Speaker 1: right now, no one, no one. I don't know what. 1057 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:48,360 Speaker 1: But y'all sound like a bunch of sinnis to me. 1058 01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,720 Speaker 1: We all are underway. Guess what. You also sound like 1059 01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of humans. I thank you so much for 1060 01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,280 Speaker 1: listening to Jay dot Ill the podcast. I thank you 1061 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,040 Speaker 1: with Sean, you know, Opening Doors is a great way 1062 01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,400 Speaker 1: to see what's on the other side. Thank you, y'all, 1063 01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:15,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. How do you eat an elephant? 1064 01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:22,120 Speaker 1: One by it kind? Hey, y'all, it's like yah feeling 1065 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,000 Speaker 1: in for Amber today and we just want to say 1066 01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,240 Speaker 1: thank you again to our guests, as Sean Crawley, who 1067 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,080 Speaker 1: shared a story that so many can relate to, because 1068 01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,920 Speaker 1: the intricacies of church are real. So if you're struggling 1069 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 1: with leaving a church or finding a new spiritual path, 1070 01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,680 Speaker 1: we want to encourage you to check out some of 1071 01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:44,400 Speaker 1: his work like Black Pentecostal Breath, The Aesthetics of Possibility, 1072 01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,560 Speaker 1: and The Lonely Letters. We'll drop a link to both 1073 01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:51,120 Speaker 1: of these books and more in the show notes. You 1074 01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,800 Speaker 1: can find a Sean on social media. His Instagram is 1075 01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,880 Speaker 1: a Sean Crawley and a Sean Crawley Art. You can 1076 01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,479 Speaker 1: also find him on Twitter at a on Crawley. Thanks Shaw, 1077 01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:17,160 Speaker 1: and always thank you for listening. Hi. If you have 1078 01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,760 Speaker 1: comments on something we said in this episode called eight 1079 01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:24,000 Speaker 1: six six, Hey Jill, if you want to add to 1080 01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:28,560 Speaker 1: this conversation that's eight six six nine five four five 1081 01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,120 Speaker 1: by don't forget to tell us your name and the 1082 01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:35,080 Speaker 1: episode you're referring to. You might just hear your message 1083 01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,680 Speaker 1: on a future episode. Thank you for listening to Jill 1084 01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:45,640 Speaker 1: Scott presents Jay dot Ill. The podcast Jay dot Ill 1085 01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,480 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast 1086 01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:53,000 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 1087 01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,440 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.