1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: And a little notice here at the beginning that this 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: is an insert because Robert and I we started talking 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: about mushroom foraging and we ended up going on for 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: like more than two hours. So so we're splitting this 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: episode into two parts. And and here is your warning, 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: so be sure to not only listen to this one, 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: but come back next time. Welcome to About to Blow 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: Your Mind, production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're going on the 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 1: Quiet Hunt. That's right, We're gonna be talking about mushroom foraging, 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: which we we kind of touched on very briefly in 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: our recent episode about liking, and then I realized we 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: just had to come back to it because I guess 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: the basic genesis for this is that I've noticed a 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: lot more more mushroom talk and a lot a lot 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: more mushroom activity this year. Uh. Part of it has 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: been social media, for sure. I've noticed, um, you know, 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: people I know taking photographs of interesting mushrooms that they've spotted, 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: sometimes correctly identifying them or even harvesting them. And uh, 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: I have to admit that my own family. We've gotten 22 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: into identifying mushrooms on hikes, and we've even done a 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: little bit of foraging ourselves, but only with rati mushrooms 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: and chanterelles. In a way, mushroom foraging is is an 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: ideal social distancing activity, right, is something you can do 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: that in a way feels social because you take them 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: home and you take pictures of them, and you put 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: them on the internet, and everybody thinks it's beautiful and 29 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: they comment on them, and it's a way of interacting 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: in a significant, productive way with the world outside your house, 31 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: but you don't have to get close to anybody. Yeah, yeah, 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: it's I think part of it has certainly been COVID 33 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: nineteen restrictions on our lives, because some of us are 34 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: doing a lot more walks through either parks or you know, 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: or hiking trails if we have access to them and 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: we're able to get to those. But even through our 37 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: own neighborhoods, like um, we we've harvested some some racial 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: mushrooms from just our immediate neighborhood environment just walking and 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: walking around spotting them and then ideing them, and then 40 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: also just ideing various other things that were not attempting 41 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: to collect. Um. It's a great it's a great way 42 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: to occupy your time to sort of how It's kind 43 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: of like the Pokemon go of the wild. It gives 44 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: you sort of um goals to achieve on your walks, 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: things to chronicle, and for most of us anyway, a 46 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: new topic to immerse ourselves in, you know, because prior 47 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: to the last couple of years or so, I really 48 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: didn't know much about mushrooms outside of like the few 49 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: varieties uh that I had previously consumed, or that you 50 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: can find at the grocery store or order on a pizza. 51 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: But of course that's only a slim variety of of 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: of the mushroom world. There are some delicious, edible wild 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: mushrooms that that have resisted cultivation. Yeah, totally. And there's 54 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: some interesting reasons for that too, like one of them 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: being that tying back to our recent like an episode, 56 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: some mushrooms that are delicious to eat exists in symbiotic 57 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: relationships with other organisms, specifically often like plants and trees 58 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: that are difficult to recreate in a controlled environment. So 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: you can't just start a chantrelle farm, or maybe you could, 60 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: but you know, You're yield would be inconsistent. It's just 61 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: really difficult to do another thing, though, is It's funny 62 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: that we think of mushroom foraging a sort of the 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: the natural world version of Pokemon Go. It's it's a 64 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: sign of like how sort of mikerchief tamed our brains are. 65 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: That Isn't Pokemon Go really a sort of substitute or 66 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: surrogate for this ancient instinct we have to scour the 67 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: land for bits of edible plant matter and and other life. 68 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: It absolutely is and uh and and so that's why 69 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to to, you know, keep listening to 70 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: this episode even if you're you're not that into mushrooms, 71 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: you're not interested in mushroom foraging, because we're going to 72 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: discuss mushroom foraging, but we're also going to discuss foraging 73 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: behavior uh in a in a broader sense. And I 74 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: think that's something that that that certainly you can e 75 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: gauge in. Just so when you're on a walk and 76 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: you're looking for something be it birds or mushrooms or 77 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: uh non existent Pokemon lurking, you know somewhere in the 78 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: GPS domain. Uh. And I think it also comes into 79 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: play in shopping, in sorting through a big box of 80 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: unsorted legos to find the pieces you're looking for. I mean, 81 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: it pops up in so many different human activities, and 82 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: it captivates us. It it is, It latches into a 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: part of our neural hardware because it is it is 84 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: part of what we're supposed to do. This is interesting. 85 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: I wish I had thought about this before we started talking, 86 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: so I could research it a bit, But it just 87 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: occurred to me. What makes the difference between search activities 88 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: that are intensely pleasurable and search activities that are maddening? 89 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking about search activities such as locating a 90 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: specific item within your house or a given room that 91 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: is not fun, that feels awful, you know, it's like 92 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: where are my keys? You just you just want it 93 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: to end as soon as possible. But on the other hand, 94 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: of course, foraging for mushrooms, playing Pokemon Go, or even 95 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: sometimes digging through a container of legos that can be 96 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: very fun, or searching for a puzzle piece. So what's 97 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: the difference. I mean, it might be the difference between 98 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: the search for the thing lost and the search for 99 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: the thing not yet obtained. Um, I'm not sure, but 100 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: I also have have noticed I think I've mentioned this 101 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: on the show before. I have found that jigsaw puzzles 102 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: the process of looking for the correct piece. For me, 103 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: I feel it's both like it's both kind of mentally 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: exhausting and frustrating and yet at the same time completely enthralling. 105 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: So I would in the past, I found myself helping 106 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: to put together a jigsaw puzzle and not really like 107 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,239 Speaker 1: I'm asking myself, Am I enjoying this? Am I having 108 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: a good time? I'm not sure, but I also cannot stop. 109 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess one thing we're highlighting is the 110 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: sometimes fuzzy line between work and play. A lot of 111 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 1: you ever notice how much video game time is taken 112 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: up with things that like are basically like they would 113 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: be work in the real world, but something about the 114 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: way they're framed just makes it a game instead. Yes, 115 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: so many of these games, especially you know, they they 116 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: want you to play regularly. It's not just play through 117 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: the story, it's play every day. So they give you 118 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: these little, basically grocery lists of things to do, and 119 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes you see players complaining about it um 120 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: and and rightfully so. But but also there's something kind 121 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: of addictive about it, like, Okay, I need to go out. 122 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: I need to you know, find and scrap eight hats 123 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: in this post apocalyptic world, you know, something like that, 124 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: and uh, and it you can weirdly get into it. Yeah, 125 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: I gotta break rocks in my digital domain. And I 126 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: guess that that sort of introduces the slot machine element, 127 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: because if it's exciting, if there are variable, intermittent rewards, 128 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: I think that's the candy in there. M yeah, I mean, well, 129 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: sometimes there's like a random the reward is random, but 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: like sometimes like in follow Out seventy six, which um 131 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: which I know fans kind of go back and forth 132 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: on this particular game and the way it's designed and 133 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: all in the elements in it, but like a lot 134 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: of the sort of grocery list assignments you have, there's 135 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: not there's not really a random rewards. You know exactly 136 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: what you're gonna get, Like you're gonna get so many 137 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: like you know, atoms that you can spend in the 138 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: store or whatever. You know exactly what you're working for 139 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: with it. Um. So in that regard, I feel like 140 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: it it kind of falls in line with foragre But 141 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: then again foraging is also an exercise in not necessarily 142 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: knowing what you're going to get or knowing what quantities 143 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: you're going to get. And we'll we'll get into that. 144 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean what if one of these digital 145 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: rocks you broke could kill you? Yeah? Yeah, And that's 146 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: gonna be a huge part of of mushrooms here. But 147 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: but before we get in going further, I do want 148 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: to just shows a couple more things. First of all, yes, 149 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: photography is a tremendously fun activity, uh to engage in 150 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: with mushrooms when you're scavenging them and finding them and 151 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: charting them in the wild. Spore prints are also a 152 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: lot of fun. Now this is when you um, you 153 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: can look up guides send how to do this online, 154 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: but where you collect like the cap of the mushroom 155 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: and then you put it on a sheet of paper 156 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: and then cover it with like a glass container or 157 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: a bowl or something, and then the spores leave a 158 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: print of the mushroom cap on the sheet of paper, 159 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: which you can then photograph and share online or even 160 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: you know, I think they're ways to preserve it as well. 161 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: Noting the emission of spores is a great reminder of 162 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: something we've talked about before, which is that when you 163 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: harvest a mushroom, you are not harvesting the entire organism 164 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: that you know, the fungus is a web of things 165 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: that live under the ground, usually or in some kind 166 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: of decomposing matter or parasitic on another organism. The mushroom 167 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: that you collect is the fruiting body that's like an 168 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: organ of the overall fungus. It's almost, I mean, not 169 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: exactly analogous, but the closest analogy I think would be 170 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: that it's like you're breaking off the sexual organs of 171 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: an animal and walking away with them. Now, now that 172 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: being said, I want to stress something that mushroom foragers 173 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: often UM stress regarding the fruiting body, and that is that, uh, 174 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: you're not going to be hurting the organism by by 175 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: harvesting the mushrooms themselves. Um. Now that being said there before, 176 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: first of all, before you engage in any kind of 177 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: mushroom foraging, UM, be aware that in some places it 178 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: is prohibited, uh some places or maybe not gonna be 179 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: hipped to this idea that you're not really hurting the organism. 180 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: They're still saying, well, you're taking away from this natural 181 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: environment that is protected in this space. The other huge 182 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: thing we want to stress before we go any further 183 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: is that while we're going to be discussing mushroom foraging 184 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: for mushrooms that one would then consume for culinary or 185 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: medicinal purposes, do not engage in this, you know, just 186 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: based on anything we've told you here, as we are 187 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: going to outline shortly, there are some risks involved there 188 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: if you if you pick the wrong mushroom, Um, some 189 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: dire consequences can occur and you just really need to um, 190 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, you need to go down that road, uh 191 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: with with professionals who know what they're talking about with 192 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: mushroom foraging, and you know, don't just run off into 193 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: the wild. Based on listening to this episode, Yes, do 194 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: not choose to put any particular thing in your mouth 195 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: because of anything we say here today. Right, So speaking 196 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: of this this danger factor, uh yeah, I want to 197 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: stress that while while I myself have enjoyed engaging in 198 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: mushroom identification and the limited foraging that that my family 199 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: feels comfortable with, yet to really you know, drive the 200 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: nail home here if you eat the wrong mushroom that 201 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: you find in the wild you will die because you 202 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: know the most Notoriously, there's a variety of mushroom known 203 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: as destroying angels, and and these will indeed destroy you 204 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: should you make make if you should mistake them for 205 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: an edible mushroom. Um. The deadly webcap mushroom is another example. 206 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: This one has been mistaken for edible chantrelle mushrooms. It's 207 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: even been mistaken for psilocybin mushrooms before, and it has 208 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: a horrifying reputation for causing irreversible kidney failure in those 209 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: who consume it, including some very notable cases such as 210 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: that of English author Nicholas Evans. Yeah, they're actually a 211 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: number of historically notable alleged mushroom poisonings that I've been 212 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: reading about, specifically in a book by Cynthia D. Burtlesson 213 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: called Mushroom, a Global History from Reaction Books in I 214 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: think it was also distributed by the University of Chicago Press, 215 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: but Burtlesson at one point writes about how the French 216 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: philosopher Voltaire, who lives sixteen nine to seventeen seventy eight, 217 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: once wrote, quote, a dish of mushrooms changed the destiny 218 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: of Europe. How how could that possibly be true? Well, 219 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: he was talking about the poisoning of a specific king 220 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: of the Holy Roman Empire, the Habsburg King, Charles the 221 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: sixth of Austria. UH to pick up with what Bertelson writes, 222 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: quote who ate deathcap mushrooms, Amanita Fellow itties the subsequent 223 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: War of the Austrian Succession from seventeen forty to seventeen 224 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: forty eight, which developed into a global war in the 225 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: American colonies, it was called King George's War, absorbing in 226 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: the process the War of jenkins Ear between the British 227 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: and Spanish and the Caribbean, affected people as far away 228 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: as India, all because of mushrooms. Those quote toad stools, 229 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: And here she's referring to the fact that it was 230 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: allegedly common among especially English speakers, to to take a 231 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: very indiscriminating attitude toward mushrooms. You know, a lot of 232 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: English Speakers would just look at all kinds of mushrooms 233 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: and say, well, they're all just toad stools. In terms 234 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: of other political consequences in history, it's also been alleged 235 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: that the Roman Emperor Claudius was poisoned with mushrooms though 236 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: this is disputed. The earliest accounts indicate that on October, 237 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: at the age of sixty four, the emperor started to 238 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: complain of extreme stomach pain. He had diarrhea and vomiting. 239 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,239 Speaker 1: He had trouble breathing, low blood pressure, and excessive salivation. 240 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: And I was reading a report in Scientific American from 241 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: two thousand and one about a conference presentation by a 242 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: doctor named William Valente from the University of Maryland School 243 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: of Medicine, and Valente argued that mushrooms containing muscarine were 244 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: the cause of his death, according to the symptoms reported. 245 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: And one of the traditional explanations for what happened to 246 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: Claudius was that he was poisoned by his wife Agrippina 247 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: in order to clear the way for her son Nero 248 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: to ascend to the throne. And we all know good 249 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: old Nero. Now, the conclusion that that Claudius died by 250 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: some form of poisoning does appear to at least usually 251 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: have been the historical consensus, but other experts doubt this one. 252 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: We should note I found a paper published by the 253 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine in two thousand 254 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: two by Marmion and Widerman, and they wrote, quote, we 255 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: see no reason to believe that Claudius was murdered. All 256 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: the features are consistent with sudden death from cerebral vascular disease, 257 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: which was common in Roman times. And they also note that, uh. 258 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: One of the forms of evidence they cite is that 259 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: physical depictions of Claudius in the couple of years before 260 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: he died show visibly declining health. That would be, you know, 261 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: consistent with the symptoms of this disease that they think 262 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: would also explain what people saw when he died. Um. So, 263 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: so we don't know for sure, but as a strange note, 264 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: apparently Emperor Nero declared that mushrooms were the food of 265 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: the gods. And it's also kind of interesting because Claudius 266 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: was deified, meaning made into a god, basically immediately after 267 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: his death. Well, I mean that does one could certainly 268 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: interpret that is Nero being a very it being a 269 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: very dastardly sneaky thing to say, huh, or it could 270 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: be a coincidence because hey, I mean, mushrooms are kind 271 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: of the food of the gods. Mushrooms are delicious. We've 272 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: gotten this far into a podcast about mushrooms without me 273 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: just saying, like, I love mushrooms. I've been cooking with 274 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: a lot of them recently that we've been getting from 275 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: a local CSA that has been supplying us with with 276 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: chottaki mushrooms and oyster mushrooms, which are so delicious if 277 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: you just like roast them lightly in the oven until 278 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: they get a little bit dried out and browned, and 279 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: you can use them in anything. They're they're like they're 280 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: meatier than meat. They are certainly like my family we are, 281 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: uh we're pesketarians, but we don't even eat fish that often. 282 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: So it's it's it's wonderful to to have mushrooms in 283 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: a dish to create that that that neaty texture and 284 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: that meaty flavor. Yeah, so good. All right, we're gonna 285 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back now. 286 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: Now we've been discussing these like terribly poisonous mushrooms, we 287 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: should of course stress that it's not just uh, you know, 288 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: good versus evil situation here. It's not just this mushroom 289 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: will will be delicious or have some sort of curative 290 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: properties to it and this one will destroy you. There's 291 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: a wide variety of mushrooms out there. Some of which, Uh, 292 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: if you eat by accident, you're not going to die, 293 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: You'll just get violently ill. You know. Um, there's a 294 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: whole world of light mushroom poisoning. Yes, there are certainly 295 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: mushrooms out there that are technically edible but not good 296 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: to eat. Uh. And and then there there's also something 297 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: to be said for just everyone's particular um digestive system 298 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: is going to react differently to different things. So there, 299 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, the mushroom that one person finds delicious and 300 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: fulfilling might give someone else an upset stomach. Yeah. Absolutely, 301 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: And in a way, the idea of mushroom foraging of 302 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: reminds us of something that would have been much more 303 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: common throughout history at times before, say I don't know, 304 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: having like an f d A and widespread food inspection 305 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: and a very organized streamline process for supplying food stuffs 306 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: to grocery stores and all that. I think if you 307 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: go back in history, you'd find that eating was more 308 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: it was a little bit more a game of roulette 309 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: than it is today. You know that you were kind 310 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: of you always just had to wonder, is like, is 311 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: what I'm eating right now safe? Yeah? Indeed, but particularly 312 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: I guess. The thing about mushroom foraging is, especially in 313 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: the modern connotation, it does uh really highlight that that risk, 314 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: that inherent risk of of foraging for your food and 315 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: it And certainly if if you look at some of 316 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: these worst case scenarios and these horror stories of people 317 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: consuming just deadly poison, uh thinking that they found an 318 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: edible mushroom or psychedelic mushroom. Um, you know it, it 319 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: may raise the question why do this at all? You 320 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: know we is the reward truly worth the risk? And 321 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: I totally get this question. You know, when when my 322 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: wife became interested in wild mushroom foraging, my initial thought was, Okay, 323 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: chantrelle sound delicious. I think I I had had them previously, 324 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: maybe once before. But are they really so good that 325 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: it's worth even thinking about the possibility of getting it 326 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: wrong or getting it deadly wrong? You know, even casting 327 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: aside the more serious risk of death and oregon damage. 328 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: Do I really just want to spend say an afternoon 329 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: or an evening, uh, you know, violently ill in my 330 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: stomach because I wanted to have this, this experience. I mean, 331 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: I would guess that part of it, like you can 332 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: sort of calculate your risks. You can't be a percent sure, 333 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: but you can say, like, Okay, I'm plucking a mushroom 334 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: that looks like this. I think it's this species. How 335 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: close in appearance and in habitat and stuff like that, 336 00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Is it two things that are known to be poisonous? Yeah, yeah, certainly, 337 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: Like in our case, you know that the mushrooms that 338 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: we tend to gravitate towards our ones, where at least 339 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: in our area. There there are only so many things 340 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: you could mistake it for. And if you you can 341 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: educate yourself on what details to precisely look for. And 342 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: then one of the beauties of social media, well, one 343 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: of the benefits I can point to is that you 344 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: can then take your photograph of this specimen and share 345 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: it with other enthusiasts and even experts and say, what 346 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: do I have here? Help me identify this, etcetera. Like 347 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: there are a lot of resources at hand. Yeah, that 348 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: is kind of wonderful. And in the same way that 349 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: the Internet can, of course be the source of of 350 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: collective delusions and things like that, it can also be 351 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: the source of collective wisdom. And one of the ways 352 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: in which I've seen it best used for collective wisdom 353 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: is species identification. There's a whole part of Twitter that's 354 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: just people posting species identification photos for snakes, for spiders, 355 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: for wild mushrooms and things like that. That's awesome. Yeah, now, 356 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: and now, particularly with mushrooms. I was looking around for 357 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: for people's thoughts on this, and I found an article 358 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: on the website for Ian Magazine by the author Cal Flynn, 359 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: and the author writes this, this whole whole piece is 360 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: just about mushroom foraging and the risk rewards of it. 361 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: And they write, quote, if the risk is so huge 362 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: and the payoffs so small, why do it? The identification 363 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: process is interesting, of course, and mushrooms are pleasant enough 364 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: to eat, but perhaps the real intrigue arises from the 365 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: risk itself and the skill required decide step it. Yeah. 366 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: This ties in with something I've often wondered about in 367 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: in two categories, both dogs and human children. And the 368 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: question is why do so many dogs and human children 369 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: just put basically anything they find on the ground into 370 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: their mouths, you know, like, uh, chances are not good 371 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: that this is food, but by god, I'm going to 372 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: give it a go. You know, this has always struck 373 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: me as a as a really maladaptive behavior. Why would 374 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: we instinctually air on putting things into the mouth instead 375 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: of keeping them out of the mouth. Wouldn't you think 376 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: that we would instinctually air more on the side of caution. 377 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: It seems like there's more risk in putting random, potentially 378 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: poisonous or inedible things into your mouth than there is 379 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: reward in whatever forsaken food energy you'd be missing out 380 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: on if you didn't put it in your mouth. But 381 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 1: I don't know who knows. I mean, maybe one thing 382 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: is that the conditions of modern life somehow encouraged behaviors 383 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: that wouldn't occur very much in nature. I guess that's 384 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: a possibility. Or maybe maybe nibbling on all kinds of 385 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: nutritionally ambiguous material is just a lot less risky than 386 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: it would seem, maybe less risky than we assume. Maybe 387 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: you can actually put all kinds of stuff in your 388 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: mouth and in your body and most of the time 389 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: you'll be fine. Well. I want to stress that we 390 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: are not advocating anyone do this. No, no, no, no no, 391 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: But I am told that experienced mushroom foragers sometimes perform 392 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: a quick taste test, tasting but not consuming a mushroom 393 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: to help determine the variety. And it's my understanding that 394 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: it's it's done with potentially toxic mushrooms as well. Again, 395 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: do not try this because we mentioned it. But but 396 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: but but this this would make sense, um that that 397 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: you would be able to um to to just taste 398 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: some of these, uh these specimens, uh to see, I 399 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: don't know, to detect say a bitterness, uh, to help 400 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: in the identification process. I was also thinking about, Okay, 401 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: what has actually been observed in wild animals in terms 402 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: of just like tasting everything, trying everything in their environment 403 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: when there are so many toxic plants and mushrooms in 404 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: the world. And one thing I came across that was 405 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: kind of interesting was an older article in the Alaska 406 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife News by Riley Woodford called How Deer 407 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: Eat Poisonous Plants, and it sites an Alaska wildlife biologist 408 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: named Tom Hanley who talks about how actually in the wild, 409 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: deer eat toxic poisonous plants just all the time. And 410 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: Hanley says, quote, deer will eat a little bit of 411 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: almost everything out there, including a few bites of various 412 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: toxic plants. There seem to be threshold levels for the 413 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: toxicity of different plants, and as long as deer eat 414 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: below the threshold, they're okay. So that's interesting. It's like, 415 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: maybe you just eat toxic things in moderation, nibble on 416 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of this here and a little bit 417 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: of that there, and over time you can sort of 418 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: build up some nutrition for your body without reaching toxic 419 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: levels on any one particular poison. Yeah. I mean, it's 420 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: also worth worth remembering that you know it's going to 421 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: vary from species to species. For instance, with humans, poison 422 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: ivy is generally no fun, but goats goats are like, 423 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: let me add it, I'm just gonna eat it all. 424 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: Goats eat poison ivy. Yeah, yeah, goats will eat it up. Yeah. 425 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: Now that that means you need to not have goat 426 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: milk from those goats, but yeah, goats goats have no 427 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: problem with it. Another outstanding a example of this sort 428 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: of thing are box turtles. Um. Box turtles are all 429 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: about eating up some some some poisonous mushrooms, for example, um, 430 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: and you know it doesn't doesn't bother bother them at all. 431 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: But for a similar reason, don't go out harvest in 432 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: box turtles think thinking you're gonna make soup out of them. Yeah. 433 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: And and the fact that different species are tolerant of 434 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: different toxins is of course something that's mentioned in this 435 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: article as well. Like it talks about how mule deer, 436 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: for example, are more tolerant of something called local weed 437 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: than pronghorn antelopear. And it says that elk or more 438 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: tolerant of ponderosa pine than bison are. And I think 439 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: this would probably have to do with what their natural 440 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: habitats are, what the evolved relationships they have are with 441 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: different plants, and and and probably also their nutritional needs. 442 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: But there was a quote that Burtleson has in her 443 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: book that I really liked. It was from the American 444 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: food writer John Thorne, who wrote, quote, all hunters put 445 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: life at risk, but for mushroomers, the amount of danger 446 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: comes well after the quarry has been run to ground finding. 447 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: The mushroom is the initiation, but eating it is the test. 448 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: I think that's interesting comparing it with hunting like that, 449 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, hunting is a dislocation of where the violence 450 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: could set in. And uh, and this connects to some 451 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: Russian traditions that I'll talk about in a minute. But 452 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: there's also a folk adage. I think we may have 453 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: mentioned it when we did our episodes about psilocybin and psychedelics. 454 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: But the folks saying is there are old mushroom hunters, 455 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: and there are bold mushroom hunters, but there are no 456 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: old bold mushroom hunters, which hammering home the idea that 457 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: mushroom foraging, while a highly rewarding activity to millions people 458 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: around the world, is something that's best practiced with a 459 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: kind of conservative mindset. Like you, you do need to 460 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: be cautious to to understand what you're doing before you 461 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: dive in head first. Yeah, I think I've heard paulse 462 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: aim it's um echo this this same nugget of wisdom 463 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: and speaking of of of of wisdom concerning that, you know, 464 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: the consumption of of mushrooms and also plants. This brings 465 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: to mind this mythological figure from Chinese mythology that have 466 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: brought up before, and that's Uh Shinong, the Divine farmer. Um. 467 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: It's also that the Chinese father of agriculture, and Uh 468 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: he's you know, he's credited with inventing various important agricultural technologies, 469 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: but also was said to have consumed. Basically that the 470 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: myth is he looked around and he saw that the 471 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: people were starving. They were they were sickly. Uh, they 472 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: needed medicine, they needed more food. So what he did 473 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: is he's set to work, consuming hundreds of plants per 474 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: day and as many as seventy poisons a day in 475 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: order to chart the medicinal properties of the natural world 476 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: in order to alleviate sickness and starvation and disease um. 477 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: And you'll often find illustrations of him kind of like 478 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: chewinging on the end of some sort of vegetation. And 479 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: he's a really interesting character in the artistic depictions as well, 480 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: because he he has these kind of bovine features and 481 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: even uh, these kind of horn like protusions on his head, 482 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: which apparently we see in some other Chinese mythological figures 483 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: as well. Well. This is great because even though there 484 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: may be there could be mythological elements to the specific 485 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: story of Shinng, it highlights the fact that at some 486 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: point there had to be a lot of trial and 487 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: error going into our knowledge about mushrooms. Right, you couldn't 488 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: just like look at him and reason from that knowledge 489 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: and like people were making decisions about what mushrooms were 490 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: safe to eat, long before we had laboratory testing procedures 491 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: and all that. So there there are just years and 492 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: years and and many historical recapitulations of painful, horrifying trial 493 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: and error in mushroom foraging. In fact, Bertleson writes about this. 494 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: She talks about specifically what was going on in the 495 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: literature of the eighteenth and nineteenth century. In the medical literature, 496 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: she says quoted, is full of accounts of unsuspecting foragers 497 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: coming home with their prizes only to find themselves hours 498 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 1: or even minutes later, laughing hysterically or bent over with 499 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: intestinal pains, unable to move from chair to bed. So 500 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: serious were cases of poisonings in France that in Paaris 501 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: in seventeen fifty four, the city fathers passed an ordinance 502 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,479 Speaker 1: prohibiting the sale of any mushrooms in the markets. So like, 503 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: there's so much mushroom poisoning. People just trying to like 504 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: figure out what you're supposed to eat and not or 505 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: or maybe disregarding what was already known by other people. 506 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: Uh that they were they were they were just like okay, 507 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: we're saying nix on the mushrooms. No mushrooms at all. 508 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, indeed in need what was known and perhaps forgotten. 509 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: Um uh yeah. It's it's interesting too to think of, 510 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: like just the very early days of humanity. As the 511 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: human expansion spreads out of our our you know, our 512 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: ancient places of origin, the human these humans and uh 513 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: and and and pre humans would have encountered just new 514 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: environments that means new species, new substances that they would 515 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: then have to test out and figure out again like 516 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: what is what is beneficial, what is dangerous? You know, 517 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: what is food? And what is the potential medicine as 518 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: they continue to spread out in the world. Yeah, and 519 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: I think this is something you see throughout the history 520 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: of mushroom literature is a gradual process of ruling things 521 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: in So in the in the eighteenth century French example, 522 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: I mentioned in seventeen fifty four they said, okay, no 523 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: mushrooms at all in the markets, but you know, mushrooms 524 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: are good. So this was eventually amended. And Burtleson mentions 525 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: that in eighteen o eight they changed the law to 526 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: allow seven species, in particular in markets in Paris, and 527 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: the mushrooms had to pass inspection by police appointed experts 528 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: in order to be sold. Now, that would make for 529 00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: a good historical television show, The Mushroom Police. All right, 530 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back. 531 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: Thank thank alright, we're back. You know, there's something I've 532 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: sometimes gonna wondered about when people really enjoy meat, you know, 533 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: people who are big carnivores like I just love a 534 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: good steak, if part of the enjoyment is a sort 535 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: of sublimated, implied sense of violence or struggle in the 536 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: idea of eating the meat, because you know, if you're 537 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: eating meat, there was some violence that happened at some point. 538 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: Something is a little bit dangerous about your food. And 539 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder if maybe in the back of 540 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: our minds there's something slightly psychologically similar going on with mushrooms. 541 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: I mean, probably not, because not if you're buying button 542 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 1: mushrooms from the store or something. I mean, that's just 543 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: like any other crop at this point. But maybe with 544 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: foraged mushrooms there there's a similar danger running underneath the skin. 545 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: Oh maybe so yeah, yeah. Um. Now to come back 546 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: to to cal Flynn's piece and Ian the author, they're 547 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: also compared it to the can ssumption of a particular 548 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: meat uh, the Japanese delicacy of fugu um, you know, 549 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: in which the risk and the skill is part of it. 550 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: You know, It's like, is the uh is the is 551 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: the chef in this case? Are they skilled enough to 552 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: pull this off, to remove the dangerous parts and serve 553 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: only the delicious parts? Uh? And so so that author 554 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: ties this into the uh to to our relationship with 555 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: mushroom foraging. Now, now to come back just briefly to 556 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 1: just the idea of there there seeming to be an 557 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: uptick in mushroom enthusiasm um, you know, especially what we 558 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: see online and all. I just wanted to share a 559 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: few more thoughts about it. First of all, I do 560 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: think there is probably a connection here to the increased 561 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: mainstream interest in psychedelic mushrooms and the increased and promising 562 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: clinical research which we we outlined what was it last 563 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: year in a several parts series on psychedelics. UM. I 564 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: feel like that, I feel I feel like that is 565 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: part of the scenario, at least with some people. UM. Also, 566 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: we should always drive home that humans have always been 567 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: fascinated with mushrooms. UH. So there's nothing new about mushroom fascination. 568 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: We see it in ancient art, we see it in 569 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: Super Mario games. So it's it's it's just part of 570 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: who we are. And if you want to read more 571 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: about this last point, it was touched on in a 572 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: New York magazine article by Sydney Gore with the wonderful 573 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: title why are mushrooms taking over my social media feed, 574 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: my medicine cabinet and my closet, referring to like fashions 575 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: I believe there, Oh, like those fungus hats, you know, 576 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: like Paul Oh, yes, yes, Paul statements fashions. Um. I 577 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: also found an interesting article about a huge uptick in 578 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: Scottish mushroom foraging uh steep rise in Scott's Enjoying Fruits 579 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: of Foraging by Maggie Ritchie and this article put it 580 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: this way, quoting Terry Carmichael, resident forager for Wild Tastes 581 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: at the Carmichael Estate and uh in Lancashire uh quote 582 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: more people were trying to get back to their roots 583 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: and to nature since the pandemic started, and we reconnect 584 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: with nature. There are so many foods that are right 585 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: on our doorstep that we see every day and can 586 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: bring into our kitchens. They're all packed with nutrients far 587 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: more than any sold in supermarkets. And it's also worth 588 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: noting UM that articles speak. You find articles speaking to 589 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: the rising quote hipness of mushroom foraging in twenty nineteen 590 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: and earlier, so a lot of this was already in motion. UM. 591 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: For instance, there was the Guardian article titled the Gospel 592 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: of Mushrooms, How foraging became Hip and that was from 593 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: October of twenty nineteen. Uh. And for my own part, 594 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: I have to point out that my family took a 595 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: guided foraging exercise, UM, like a guided hike through an 596 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: area where they were known to be sementable mushrooms in 597 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: earlier in two thousand nineteen, I think summer of two 598 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen as well. Uh. There's apparently been just overall 599 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: kind of a demographic shift on top of this, where 600 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: mushroom foraging was previously the kind of hobby that you 601 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: would often see older individuals engaged in, and that has 602 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 1: shifted a bit younger in UM in recent years. So 603 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: part of this goes back to pre pandemic times, to 604 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and these trends, but I definitely also to 605 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: come back to what you were saying before that would 606 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: connect it to trends we've seen in uh self sufficiency 607 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: and production of food stuffs in the home or around 608 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: the home. Uh the same way there was sort of 609 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: a craze for like people making sour dough bread, people 610 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: growing herb gardens and things like that. This year when 611 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: I think, I think suddenly a lot of people realize 612 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: that it might be much easier than they had previously 613 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: thought to acquire food items from places other than the 614 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: grocery store. Yeah. Yeah, I also want to mention that, um, 615 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: that that foraging course that my family took, that high 616 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: guided hike. UM, it was kind of a varied group. 617 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: You know. You had some people who are just kind 618 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 1: of nature enthusiasts, but then there's one guy who was 619 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: like straight up survivalist like he was, you know, he 620 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: was there to to learn. I mean, he was there 621 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: I think for a little socialization as well, you know, 622 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: but he was also one of these guys that was like, Yep, 623 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: it's coming and I'm gonna I'm gonna be the one 624 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: that know the mushrooms are when the Y two K 625 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: bug hits, I'm gonna be here with my gun mushroom hunting. Yeah, 626 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: and I think we can all relate late to that. 627 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: You know, we do a little um uh, you know, 628 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: doom fantasizing and we're like, oh man, if it's suddenly 629 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: Corny McCarthy's The Road, I want to know what's up, 630 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: you know, um, especially as we previously mentioned, you know, 631 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: fun guys are gonna gonna presumably do do all right 632 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: if the sun gets blocked out, right, This is a 633 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: great point. I didn't think about this. So the in 634 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 1: in Coral McCarthy's The Road, the earth is kind of dead. 635 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: The sky appears to have been, I don't know, clouded 636 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: by some kind of particulate matter. Did you ever have 637 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: a personal theory as to what the event was in 638 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: the Road, was a volcanic eruptions or an impact from 639 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: space or um? I always lean more towards nuclear war 640 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: just because they have those. He had those really, um. 641 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole book is beautiful and dark, and 642 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: so has those richly, but has these deposits of just 643 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: exceedingly rich language. And there are a few they're describing, 644 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: like what it's like in the cities, where like the 645 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: city seemed to be a very toxic place, to be, 646 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: and he talks about like people rummaging through the rubble 647 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: to get uh you know, probably radioactive foods that they 648 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: can eat, that sort of thing. So I kind of 649 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: I would tend to lean towards that, but he does 650 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: keep it vague as to what exactly happened. Right Well, 651 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: whatever it is, something has has darkened the skies and 652 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: this of course has killed all the plant life, so 653 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: nobody can grow any food to eat. But yeah, I 654 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: would be thinking, you shouldn't mushrooms be doing awesome? Yeah, yeah, 655 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: there's no. I don't think there's any mention of them 656 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: growing anywhere, but one would hope. So it would be 657 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: it would be almost kind of a comical scene right 658 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: where the cannibals are hanging out and they're like, whoa, guys, 659 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: there are mushrooms everywhere. We shouldn't have to eat babies anymore? 660 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: Is Sean trell season? Yeah? Hand of the woods? So anyway, 661 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: Um so, so there's the survival aspect of it, certainly, 662 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: but uh, you know, there's just fascination with nature. But 663 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: I would say that another huge part of this, and 664 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: something we're gonna continue to discuss here, is that foraging 665 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: would seem to be an innate part of the human experience, 666 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: and we engage in it in various ways. Mushroom hunting 667 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: stands out as a as a thoroughly authentic example of 668 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: this sort of foraging behavior. But again, we can we 669 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: can all identify with activities that are like foraging that 670 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: are oddly satisfying. Again, like jigsaw puzzles, lego pieces, shopping, 671 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: even going to the grocery store can be an an 672 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: act of foraging. It can sort of engage some of 673 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: those same circuits. I feel like it certainly varies from 674 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: person to person. For example, I've been fascinated by the 675 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: way that some people really enjoy shopping, you know, they 676 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: enjoy like shopping for clothes or whatever. And that's always 677 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: been very mysterious to me. I don't enjoy that at all. 678 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: It seems like a really irritating, tedious activity that I 679 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: don't do unless I absolutely have to. But then I realized, 680 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: actually I can relate to it, because I really enjoy 681 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: under under at least like less stressful circumstances. I really 682 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: enjoy shopping for food. I like going out to find 683 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: like nice produce, you know, going to the farmers markets, 684 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, finding a really good looking cucumber or a 685 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: bunch of mushrooms or something. So so I think I 686 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: do actually relate to that foraging shopping instinct. It's just 687 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: with different kinds of items, and I guess that probably 688 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: works out differently from for different people. I know some 689 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: people who love going to the hardware store. I don't 690 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: really get that either. But you know that's like a 691 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: very classically like dad thing is like, oh yeah, the 692 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: hardware store. Well, I know you and I back when 693 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: we could actually physically go in there, going to uh 694 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: the last video store in Atlanta, video Drome there, and 695 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: Forage for particular. Uh, you know, movies were interested in 696 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: saying like that. That is uh, is I think very 697 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: comparable to foraging? Very interesting? Why Yeah, So I love 698 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: the video drome and and the produce sile, but I 699 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: do not love the hardware store or the clothes aisle. 700 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it comes back to again this idea, 701 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 1: is there a reward? Is there something that I'm working 702 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: towards getting that is meaningful to me sustenance either in 703 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: a food sense or in a B movie sense. But 704 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: clearly for many people there is a lot of pleasure 705 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: in mushroom foraging that is not related to the reward. 706 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: It is related to the activity itself. And this is 707 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: something that kept coming up for me when I was 708 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: reading about the Russian traditions of mushroom foraging. This is 709 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: what I referenced at the beginning of the episode. But 710 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 1: the term the quiet hunt, apparently, you know, mushroom foraging 711 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: is very popular in Russia, and it's often been called 712 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: this the quiet hunt. I like that Bertelson mentions this 713 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: tradition in her book when she's quoting a passage from 714 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: Vladimir Nabakov's memoir Speak Memory, which he published in nineteen 715 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: fifty one, and in this book he writes about his 716 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: own mother's obsession with mushroom foraging. Quote. One of her 717 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: greatest pleasures in summer was the very Russian sport of 718 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: Hodi Greeby looking for mushrooms fried in butter and thickened 719 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: with sour cream. Her delicious fines appeared regularly on the 720 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: dinner table. Not that the gustatory moment mattered much. Her 721 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: main delight was in the quest. Burtleson also quotes the 722 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: Russian American pediatrician Valentina Pavlovna Wasson, who of course was 723 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: married to the famed microphile our Gordon Wasson. There were 724 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: sort of a a amateur mushroom expert team in in 725 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen hundreds. I think that they were also 726 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: heavily involved in UH spreading the word about psilocybin mushrooms 727 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: to the world. But speaking of her childhood, you know 728 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: she came from a Russian family. Valentina Pavlovna wrote that quote, 729 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: when we were naughty, our mother would punish us by 730 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: forbidding us to go mushrooming. Great. You know, it's like 731 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: it's like a video game. And Burtleson in her chapter, 732 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: identifies a couple of possible factors influencing the widespread passion 733 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: for mushroom foraging in Russia. One of them that she 734 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: highlights is the number of fast days mandated under the 735 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: Russian Orthodox Church, which would specifically UH. It would imply 736 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: that Christians were expected not to eat meat on these days, 737 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: and mushrooms would provide a luxurious meeting nous to a 738 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: plate that you know, when you can't eat meat itself. 739 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: But also just general poverty leading to that same lack 740 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: of meat. But there's also a thing that appears to 741 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,439 Speaker 1: go beyond culinary preferences. I was reading an article by 742 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: Ellen Barry in The New York Times for the Moscow 743 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: Journal called a hypnotizing hunt leaves Russians bewildered. This is 744 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: from two thousand nine, and Barry writes that practitioners of 745 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: the quiet hunt quote routinely becomes so hypnotized that they 746 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: get hopelessly lost. Yeah, apparently Russian media is full of 747 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: stories like this. She cites a couple. I'm just I'm 748 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: going to read from her article here quote. Earlier this month, 749 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: a sodden and unshaven man emerged from the woods near 750 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: the southern Russian village of Gorriachi, telling rescuers that he 751 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: spent three nights perched in trees to get away from jackals. 752 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: A similar tale came from the Tiger near Bratsk in Siberia, 753 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 1: where a twenty two year old man wandered for five days, 754 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: covering himself with pine boughs at night to ward off 755 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: frost bite. Eleven time zones to the west, near the 756 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: Baltic Sea, a search and rescue team found an elderly 757 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: couple in a swamp where they had spent the night 758 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: The wife in what officials described as a state of panic. 759 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: It happens every mushroom season, and so yeah, very interesting. 760 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: Berry writes that for a lot of mushroom hunters in Russia, 761 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: the foraging activity induces a kind of trance state. I 762 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: don't know how literally to take that, but that's what 763 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: she says, and it does seem to be consistent with 764 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: what a lot of people have written about the Quiet Hunt. 765 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: And it's interesting that there there's a kind of disconnect because, 766 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: of course, ancient mushroom foraging practices would have been established 767 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: by people who were probably better at navigating the wild 768 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: landscape and finding their way home following the angle of 769 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: the sun, for instance, while in modern times we have 770 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: lost a lot of these wayfinding skills because we don't 771 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: need them very often, and instead we rely on technology, 772 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: which is not always reliable. So autumn comes and people 773 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: go in, they go to the woods, they trance up, 774 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 1: and they get lost. And the article quotes a rescue 775 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: worker named alexander's Manovski who calls the people who get 776 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: lost quote the children of asphalt. Now, of course, with 777 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: stories like this, you also just have to, you know, 778 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: wonder with some of these stories people might just be 779 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: doing other things and then later they say, oh, yeah, 780 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: I got lost while mushroom foraging. There are some there 781 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: are allegations in the article of some people's particular stories 782 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: where people are like, well, they were just on a 783 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: bender or something. But but clearly it does seem to 784 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: happen fairly often. Well, I mean, one is of course 785 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: reminded of the fact that if you go on a 786 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: nature walk, uh, you you you, you, you may get 787 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: lucky and find some from Chanterelle's or whatnot growing close 788 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: to the trail, but in all likelihood you're gonna you're 789 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: gonna spot that that tell tale yellow patch a little 790 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: further off from the trail, and then you you may 791 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: wander off the trail to go and get them. Uh. 792 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 1: And of course leaving the trail can is one way 793 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: to get a little closer to becoming lost in the forest. Um, 794 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean this is how isn't there there's a part 795 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: in the Hobbit I think where basically the same thing happens, 796 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: except the ferries camp fire, which of course has parallels 797 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: to patches of mushrooms in the wood well and it 798 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: specifically highlights things about forging strategies that we observe in 799 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: humans and in other animals about say, the density of 800 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: rewards in certain areas, like probably the closer you stay 801 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: to the occupied area, the more picked over the stores 802 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: are gonna be. So you might need to make a 803 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: little bit of a journey to go to place is 804 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: that haven't been picked over by other people already. And 805 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: the farther you get away, the more the risks multiply, 806 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: the more energy you expend. Yeah, and then then the 807 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:10,839 Speaker 1: next thing you know, you've got the head of a bear. 808 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: So the little mushroom man, it's it's transformed you. All right, 809 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to interrupt the conversation right there again. 810 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,479 Speaker 1: We had to split this conversation into two episodes. Uh 811 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,919 Speaker 1: So expect the second half on the next publication day 812 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: for stuff to blow your mind. But in the meantime, 813 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: feel free to write in we'd love to hear from 814 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 1: everybody on the topic of mushroom foraging, your experiences with 815 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,359 Speaker 1: mushroom foraging, etcetera. I should also point out that if 816 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: you if you're interested in merchandise for the show, we 817 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: actually have a mushroom theme Stuff to blow your mind 818 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: logo T shirt it's kind of black light themed. If 819 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: you go to UM I think if you go to 820 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, it'll still refer 821 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: you to this I heart listing for our show. And 822 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: there should be a store UM selection that you can 823 00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: you can click on store and it will take you 824 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: to that store. So if you're interested in that sort 825 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: of thing, uh, that's where you'll find it. Huge things. 826 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 827 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 828 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 829 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 830 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: email us at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind. 831 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 832 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the 833 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,760 Speaker 1: I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 834 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.