Speaker 1: On the be Dol Cast. The questions asked if movies
Speaker 1: have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
Speaker 1: and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Durante
Speaker 1: Ja Loftus, and we're doing the Princess movie today. Well
Speaker 1: that was a good intro, one of our best. Good job.
Speaker 1: I think that we've been recording a lot lately, and um,
Speaker 1: when we're recording more, I feel like the intros were
Speaker 1: just like, um, the show is starting. I hope that's
Speaker 1: okay with your permission. The show is starting. Um, but
Speaker 1: this is our Betel Cast is a feminist movie podcast
Speaker 1: that analyzes the role of female identifying characters in the
Speaker 1: famous movie It's True and what do we do Well?
Speaker 1: We use the Bechtel Test I ever heard of it?
Speaker 1: Sometimes called I Don't Know Her, It's sometimes called the
Speaker 1: Bechdel Wallace test, and it's a media metric created by
Speaker 1: cartoonist Alison Bechdel, who knows who we are now confirmed
Speaker 1: she has, but like she knows, she knows, she knows
Speaker 1: we exist and that step one maybe steps yes, yes,
Speaker 1: but Alison, if you eventually, you know, probably in when
Speaker 1: you get to this episode, you'll hear this invitation for
Speaker 1: you to come on the show anytime. Her favorite movie
Speaker 1: is Groundhog Day, so there's I've just been like tapping
Speaker 1: all my sources to find her favorite movies Groundhot Day,
Speaker 1: so she'll hear that episode first. Yes we should. We
Speaker 1: did to cover that one, but like re upload it
Speaker 1: and be like, we know you're listening. Anyways, what's the
Speaker 1: Betel test? Jeez, who knows if he said that and
Speaker 1: then we didn't know what it was. Um, two female
Speaker 1: identifying characters with names have to speak to each other
Speaker 1: about something other than a man for at least two
Speaker 1: lines of dialogue. That is our specific bar. Yes, so
Speaker 1: let's let's demonstrate. Let's do it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,
Speaker 1: Um do you? Oh no, wait, that wasn't going to pass.
Speaker 1: It's so hard to pass the backtel tests that passes.
Speaker 1: We did it. I was literally about to bring up
Speaker 1: the firefly's funeral and like that was a male phone. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just can't get over the fact that they killed
Speaker 1: the firefly. We're talking about the princess and the Frog today. Uh,
Speaker 1: shall we bring our guests in? Yes, let's do it.
Speaker 1: She's terrific. She's a wonderful comedian. She's so funny. It's
Speaker 1: Lexi Grace. We're so excited to have you. I'm glad
Speaker 1: to be here. I'm very excited. Yes, there's so much
Speaker 1: to talk about today, starting with Lexie. What's your relationship
Speaker 1: your history with this movie? So Princess and the Frog.
Speaker 1: I actually saw it when it first came out, like
Speaker 1: Christmas Day two thousand and nine. Yeah, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: was in New York. I watched it with my mom.
Speaker 1: We we did two movies back to back, that in
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes and then well but yeah, I went and
Speaker 1: saw it like I saw it opening It was either
Speaker 1: opening week or like the second week. I think it
Speaker 1: was opening week because like I feel like, as a
Speaker 1: black woman, like it's really important to support because she
Speaker 1: was like the first animated African American princess. But my
Speaker 1: favorite African American princess would definitely be uh Brandy, Yes,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Brandy. Cinderella. Yes, that's that was like
Speaker 1: my formative Cinderella. She's so good. And then it's isn't
Speaker 1: it Whitney Houston is the Fairy Godmother. Oh, that's a
Speaker 1: special movie, special movie. And then and then I know
Speaker 1: Whoopie Goldberg and the Prince have like an Asian Son, which, yes,
Speaker 1: but that that movie was great. That's like the Rogers
Speaker 1: and Hammerstein one too. Yeah, baby's got to see it.
Speaker 1: You've never seen it, it's so. But I have seen
Speaker 1: and this is not This is not a princess movie
Speaker 1: because I don't think was sort of oz is Dorothy
Speaker 1: is considered a princess, but like in the in the
Speaker 1: extended universe, she's a princess adjacent. I would say, I
Speaker 1: have seen the Ashanti and Queen Latifa Muppet Wizard of
Speaker 1: oz which is it's okay, No, it's great, It's okay,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's one of the better like Muppet adaptation,
Speaker 1: I think. So, yeah, I love that movie. I love Ashanti. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you have to see Brandy Cinerella. Okay, oh
Speaker 1: it's really people love it. But so you saw Princess
Speaker 1: and the Frog in theaters. Awesome, So so did I.
Speaker 1: I also saw it as a double feature, and for
Speaker 1: some reason, I thought the other movie was Terminator Salvation,
Speaker 1: but I looked up the release date of that movie,
Speaker 1: and the timing doesn't line up because that movie did
Speaker 1: come out in oh nine, but it was in May,
Speaker 1: so that wouldn't have that doesn't So I don't know
Speaker 1: what the other movie was. But I did see The
Speaker 1: Princess and the Frog in theaters, and I hadn't rewatched
Speaker 1: it until this week to prep for the episode. But
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk about it, Jamie, what about you,
Speaker 1: Sam sutt in theaters. Haven't seen it since I double
Speaker 1: featured it with Avatar, which so it was like that day.
Speaker 1: That day was a lot. That day was an absolute
Speaker 1: lot um, but it was because I remember, like we
Speaker 1: had tickets to Avatar. I think that we saw Avatar
Speaker 1: first and then saw Princess in the Frog, which is
Speaker 1: a weird order to do that. And I remember liking it,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't watching it critically at all, but I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I like it. Diana is cool. Um, the songs are
Speaker 1: pretty good. Is that Oprah's voice? Yes? Um, that's what
Speaker 1: those are the thoughts I remember? Um, And then yeah,
Speaker 1: I hadn't revisited it in in a while, but we
Speaker 1: get a ton of requests for it and so it's
Speaker 1: it's long overdue. I'm excited too, I mean, and it's
Speaker 1: like it's it was frustrating to rewatch because you like
Speaker 1: the elements of a movie I could like are there,
Speaker 1: and then just everything kind of agreed. Like when I
Speaker 1: watched it, like I was so excited for this, like
Speaker 1: this like African American princess, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: why does she have to do the most? Like she's
Speaker 1: got a clean she's got a cook she's like handling business.
Speaker 1: Everyone's like why are you working? So like it's like
Speaker 1: why can't she just be like a regular princess? You
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Right right? And and she doesn't
Speaker 1: get to visibly be a black woman for seventy of
Speaker 1: the movie and why is this happening? Like every god?
Speaker 1: And then she's got like the worst prints out of
Speaker 1: a lot of them, because like most prints are like
Speaker 1: generals or they have like an army, or they've got
Speaker 1: some sort of wealth. He's like a broke for his
Speaker 1: like the Prince is like not dissimilar to like Lena
Speaker 1: Dunham's character and girls. It just like start to like
Speaker 1: he's like I've been cut off. Now I'm going to
Speaker 1: go to the city and see what happens, because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I hate this parallel. This is horrible. It also reminded
Speaker 1: me of Eddie Murphy and coming to America. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a way better comparison. That's way more favorable, right, And
Speaker 1: in that movie, like we know why he's coming to America.
Speaker 1: In in Princess and the Frog, Navine is just like,
Speaker 1: for some reason, I'm in New Orleans. Anyone's doing anything
Speaker 1: except you know why Tiana is doing things even though
Speaker 1: men are constantly trying to distract her from doing the
Speaker 1: clear set goal she has. Um everyone levels You're like,
Speaker 1: what is what are they doing? Yeah, everyone in the
Speaker 1: movie is just like telling Tiana, They're like why are
Speaker 1: you working so hard? Like why are you? And it's
Speaker 1: not like she's working so hard that it's like detrimental,
Speaker 1: because like I could understand, like she's working hard and
Speaker 1: she's like missing like you know, birthdays and like her
Speaker 1: you know, her dad's funeral or something like that. But
Speaker 1: she seems to clearly have like a good work life
Speaker 1: balance right right, Like it's she's working towards a clear goal.
Speaker 1: Like that element of the story, You're like they're making
Speaker 1: her do the most, but we know what she wants
Speaker 1: and she's like capable and working really hard and she's
Speaker 1: going to achieve your goal. And then they're like, well,
Speaker 1: you can't achieve your goal until you're you get a
Speaker 1: man a frogman involved, and you're just like, really, in
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, we're still but we're still on that,
Speaker 1: are still on that frustrating and also like, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so many issues with the shadow Man that Will
Speaker 1: will talk about. But just like story wise, he didn't say,
Speaker 1: like at first, you're just like he's just doing evil
Speaker 1: Ship because and then he says if he almost exact
Speaker 1: halfway mark of the movie, he finally reveals what his
Speaker 1: motive is. You're like, why is this coming up? An
Speaker 1: hour into the movie. He's like, oh, yeah, you know
Speaker 1: how I've been doing all this evil ship for an hour?
Speaker 1: Actually I just remembered it's for I hate John Goodman.
Speaker 1: And you're like, what, Like it just is a mess?
Speaker 1: Is a mess? Well? Should I try to describe the plot? Yeah?
Speaker 1: In the recap, Yeah, we'll talk about what's there. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we meet Tiana as a young girl. The year
Speaker 1: is nineteen thirteen, and I know this because someone is
Speaker 1: holding a newspaper that said Wilson just elected, And I
Speaker 1: looked up what year Woodrow Wilson was elected in and
Speaker 1: it was so I feel like they were trying to
Speaker 1: tell us it was the nineteen oh But fast forward later. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when she when she's um, I think when we see
Speaker 1: Tiana as an adult, she's I think nineteen years old. Damn,
Speaker 1: he's really counting on. You know. When Woodrow Wilson was
Speaker 1: elected in like a very like throwaway visual, children will
Speaker 1: be like, I guess Woodrow Wilson he was elected in
Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen, So Titanic has been sunk for one year.
Speaker 1: When the story the nation is in distress and we're
Speaker 1: in New York, New Orleans is how you say it.
Speaker 1: I don't know New Orleans. It's not how you say it.
Speaker 1: And she loves cooking. It's her dream to open up
Speaker 1: a restaurant with her father. Her mother is a seamstress
Speaker 1: who makes dresses for this rich white girl, Charlotte, and
Speaker 1: Tiana's mom also reads the Frog Prince to the girls.
Speaker 1: Cut to Tiana as a young woman working two jobs
Speaker 1: waiting tables. She's saving up money for this restaurant. She
Speaker 1: sings the best song in the movie. I like almost
Speaker 1: there a lot, that's a fun that's the that's the
Speaker 1: banger for me. And this one, I like the song
Speaker 1: at the very beginning, and I don't remember how it goes,
Speaker 1: but it's something like there's a studio in the south end.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's like they're like poor provincial town. Yes exactly,
Speaker 1: They're like, this is where we are. And that's so
Speaker 1: she's saving up money for her restaurant. Her father has
Speaker 1: since passed away. Um, so in this movie we have
Speaker 1: a dead parent, but it's a dead father instead of
Speaker 1: a dead mother. They really galaxy brained this one too,
Speaker 1: because they're like, Okay, we're going to subvert the narrative
Speaker 1: by killing her father instead of her mother. But still,
Speaker 1: somehow her father and her relationship with her father is
Speaker 1: the most. She's like stam, like every five seconds, it's like,
Speaker 1: my dad, why did she even kill him? Why? If
Speaker 1: he's going to be so looming over the story and yeah, sneaky,
Speaker 1: Like even when the mom comes over, she brings like
Speaker 1: it looks like a new pot and like it's sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm jumping ahead, and she's like, oh, it's dad's pots.
Speaker 1: And then her mom has the most regressive you and
Speaker 1: oh yeah, there's a whole thematic thing that I want
Speaker 1: to talk about. But there I really felt like they
Speaker 1: pulled one over on us with like that. No, we
Speaker 1: killed the dad this time, but don't worry, he's still
Speaker 1: the most important parent. Okay. So then we meet Prince
Speaker 1: Navin of Maldonia, which is a fictional country which I'm
Speaker 1: guessing is right now Genovia and Aldovia. It's right between
Speaker 1: Genovia and Aldovia, as mal Dona, Maldonia is not the
Speaker 1: Prince Levin is from. Yes, he shows up to town
Speaker 1: and Charlotte is trying to funk him, so she hires
Speaker 1: Tianna to make a bunch of Beignet's for a ball
Speaker 1: that she's throwing I guess in like Prince Novine's honor
Speaker 1: or she's inviting him to the ball or something. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but it's happening that night. And with the
Speaker 1: money that Charlotte gives Tiana to make all these bennets,
Speaker 1: her horny beignets just like Jesus, She's definitely Charlotte is
Speaker 1: definitely like Blanch from Golden Girls, person like like younger,
Speaker 1: like just chaotic, horny. I found that character to be
Speaker 1: so profoundly annoying. Well again, I feel like that was
Speaker 1: Disney trying to make commentary. I hate when Disney tries
Speaker 1: to comment on their own work. It just always comes
Speaker 1: off really annoying, where they're like, Oh, in a normal
Speaker 1: Disney movie, she would be the princess, but now she's
Speaker 1: a stupid jackass. You're like, that's not the direction with
Speaker 1: that's why, right. But anyway, so with this money, Tiana
Speaker 1: now has enough money too. I guess put a down
Speaker 1: payment on the building that she wants to turn into
Speaker 1: her Restaurant's huge, huge, It's like a million square feet.
Speaker 1: I don't know how square footage works. Meanwhile, this creepy man,
Speaker 1: the shadow Man, Dr Facilier, is like, hey, Prince Navine,
Speaker 1: you're broke and you're here in town to marry a
Speaker 1: rich girl. Let me help you with that. And at
Speaker 1: first I thought he was there as like Mr. Exposition,
Speaker 1: but then he gets to do stuff, but he does.
Speaker 1: Like his first five lines are like, as we all
Speaker 1: know you are a prince and you are here now,
Speaker 1: but you don't have any money, Well what should you do?
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god? And also the prince right away.
Speaker 1: It's like you're a fat man, right. Oh yeah, just
Speaker 1: like fashion fashion fact. Right, And that character is I
Speaker 1: guess Prince Navine's valet or something, Lawrence. So Dr Fasilier
Speaker 1: goes to Lawrence and he's like, hey, you're tired of
Speaker 1: being pushed around by all these rich people, right, let
Speaker 1: me help you with that, And then Navine and Lawrence
Speaker 1: kind of separately make a deal with the devil quote unquote.
Speaker 1: Then it's the night of the ball and Charlotte is
Speaker 1: dancing with Prince Navine and Tiana learns that her offer
Speaker 1: for the restaurant that she put in what has been
Speaker 1: outbid and unless she comes up with the money kind
Speaker 1: of right away, the place will not be hers. Also,
Speaker 1: the guys who are the realtors are dressed up as
Speaker 1: a horse. Yes, I did laugh at that. There are
Speaker 1: a few things I'm like, all right. What I like
Speaker 1: is they retracted their offer right after like her and
Speaker 1: her mom had like cleaned the place. Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: she had the keys. Yeah, And I think they're like, well,
Speaker 1: it's cleaner now, so it's more valuables. Sell it for
Speaker 1: more money. That's not with with that, Tiana sings when
Speaker 1: she's cleaning stuff. I mean, I hate that she has
Speaker 1: to be clean while she sings it. But that has
Speaker 1: a pretty good song too. Yeah, it's not not almost there,
Speaker 1: so it's almost there. That is almost there. Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: that is almost there. And there's so many there's too
Speaker 1: many songs. There's a lot of songs. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of songs, and I would say most of them are
Speaker 1: not good. Went there almost their slaps, not a good
Speaker 1: villain song, not a just mess. Yeah. Anyway, So Tiana,
Speaker 1: learning that her her bid has been outbid, causes a
Speaker 1: big spill and she gets food all over her. So
Speaker 1: Charlotte loans her one of her fantasy dresses, and Tiana
Speaker 1: is lamenting about losing her opportunity to own the restaurant.
Speaker 1: And suddenly there's a frog right there, and that frog
Speaker 1: can talk because he's Prince Navine. So we're like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, who's that guy who looks like Prince Navine
Speaker 1: dancing with Charlotte downstairs? What? Anyway? So the frog is like, hey, Tianna,
Speaker 1: please kiss me, and if you do, I will give
Speaker 1: you money for the restaurant. Because he was like, this
Speaker 1: is fine, this is fine, and he was hurt. It
Speaker 1: seems like a fair offer. He wants her to kiss
Speaker 1: him because because she's dressed up in this fancy gown,
Speaker 1: he thinks that she's a princess, and I will break them.
Speaker 1: I mean, he of all people, should know right that
Speaker 1: not everyone he's ever met who's wearing a dress is
Speaker 1: related to him, like or his royalty in the US.
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there
Speaker 1: has ever been any royal family based like there are
Speaker 1: no monarchies, there's any time. Thank you so much. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure. What if I was like,
Speaker 1: actually there is a king? How did you do? We've
Speaker 1: got we've got I mean, now that we've got Megan,
Speaker 1: maybe she's gonna I seem she hates being royalty, but
Speaker 1: maybe she'll bring it over here and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: for your consideration, for it's about time. And at this
Speaker 1: point we're like, yeah, sure, I mean, our presidency isn't
Speaker 1: really working out. Why there's well switched to maybe better
Speaker 1: than right anyway, So um the frog is like, hey, Tiana,
Speaker 1: let's kiss and she's like, okay, fine, if you're going
Speaker 1: to help me get my restaurant, i'll do it. But
Speaker 1: when she kisses him, he stays a frog, and Tiana
Speaker 1: also turns into a another frog. This is one of
Speaker 1: the well I have things to say about this. Later
Speaker 1: they're just like, okay, magic is supposed to work for
Speaker 1: distey princesses. I hate this subversion to where they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, our first black and says we're gonna get
Speaker 1: the magic to fuck her over here. Like why, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm just supposed to help. Okay. So now
Speaker 1: they're both frogs and they have to and everyone's like frogs.
Speaker 1: So they have to run away and escape this party,
Speaker 1: and then they fly away with some balloons into the swamp.
Speaker 1: Then we find out that Lawrence the Valet or valet
Speaker 1: is who is occupying Navine's body, and Navine was turned
Speaker 1: into the frog. This was all done by Dr Facilier,
Speaker 1: who I think just around this time is about to
Speaker 1: tell you why he's doing everything. Yeah, he for the
Speaker 1: first half of the movie. You're just like chaos. I
Speaker 1: guess it's just his outfit. He has to be mean
Speaker 1: like the boy, so I guess. So he doesn't. He
Speaker 1: wants to be rich, he wants to control the town,
Speaker 1: and so he needs to This is again like one
Speaker 1: of those I mean, and this happens with Disney Villains
Speaker 1: a lot, but like the things he's doing to accomplish
Speaker 1: his goals are so round. Yeah, you're just like why
Speaker 1: would this be because he says like, I can't conjure
Speaker 1: anything for myself, so I guess he was waiting for
Speaker 1: this opportunity, even though it seems like he could have
Speaker 1: killed Popa at any point, right right, Like it seems
Speaker 1: like he always I got confused, especially in the back
Speaker 1: half of this movie. There's so many like talismans and magic.
Speaker 1: There's multiple magical items introduced to like supplement plant that
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense where I lost track of the items.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, there's the thing where you got
Speaker 1: to get the frog blood. Then there's like the voodoo
Speaker 1: doll of John Goodman, and then there's like a necklace,
Speaker 1: and then you're like, there's too many things going on,
Speaker 1: and there's a whole conversation that will have about any
Speaker 1: portrayal of that's the whole thing. But yeah, I was
Speaker 1: losing track of all the different like the various magical
Speaker 1: items that they're like, oh, well this is happening because
Speaker 1: frog blood, and you're like, what but what his plan was.
Speaker 1: He he wants like money and control of New Orleans,
Speaker 1: and so he has to kill John Goodman. Is that
Speaker 1: because he will inherit the He's doing like a sixty
Speaker 1: forty split with Lawrence, who will inherit the money from
Speaker 1: Charlotte once her father has died, and it could happen
Speaker 1: to a long the money. Yeah, because women don't have
Speaker 1: any right. So he's like, as soon as she gets married,
Speaker 1: He's like, okay, women can just about now, so I
Speaker 1: feel pretty comfortable, like this will work out in my
Speaker 1: favorite oh yeah. And then also like also too, it's
Speaker 1: weird because like there's no, like you said, in his plan,
Speaker 1: there's no like afterthought, like okay, like after they kill him,
Speaker 1: like then what like what will they do in Charlotte? Yes,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like it's assumed to turn her into
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I guess that they could do that. I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know what. Like, it is a very convoluted plan,
Speaker 1: for sure, and to the point where he even like
Speaker 1: towards the end, when the plan starts to funk up,
Speaker 1: he's like singing about how the plant is convoluted. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: this is a small part of a much larger plan.
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, we know they're hard to be a
Speaker 1: more direct way, right, but alas um. So then we
Speaker 1: cut back to the frogs in the swamp and they
Speaker 1: find out that they can talk to all animals, but
Speaker 1: most of the animals want to eat them, so they
Speaker 1: have to get away from all these like alligators and stuff.
Speaker 1: But then they meet this friendly trumpet playing alligator, Lewis,
Speaker 1: and he tells them about Mama Odie, who is a
Speaker 1: who who does voodoo. She's a plot which and he's like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe she can turn you back into humans. So they
Speaker 1: embark on this quest to find Mama Odie. Meanwhile, Lawrence
Speaker 1: is trying to marry Charlotte. So there's the whole like
Speaker 1: Lawrence as Navine is trying to right and then did
Speaker 1: that have to be there? Like I feel like you
Speaker 1: can kind of do away with a part of that,
Speaker 1: Like if you take Lawrence out, and then it's just
Speaker 1: like Prince Navine is missing. I feel like you kind
Speaker 1: of accomplished the same thing with a way less convoluted
Speaker 1: still in this plot, but that's just you know, who
Speaker 1: am I who are stupid? That's not true. But they've
Speaker 1: hit a snag because the talisman that contains Navine's blood
Speaker 1: is running out. So um dr Faciliate calls upon his
Speaker 1: friends from the other side, which are like these shadow
Speaker 1: demons to go find Frog Navine. Um So, back in
Speaker 1: the swamp, they made this Cajun fly named Ray who
Speaker 1: helps lead them to Mama ODIs and they get there
Speaker 1: and Mama Odie is like, well, if Charlotte kisses Frog
Speaker 1: Navine before midnight because she's technically a princess before midnight
Speaker 1: because her father was voted King of Marty, and yeah,
Speaker 1: like where who controls the magic that it would work, don't.
Speaker 1: I also like that her gumbo pot is like a
Speaker 1: crystal ball. Wait, You're just like wait, could it always
Speaker 1: do that? And then like for a second when they
Speaker 1: had the tibat, like when she puts the Tabasco sauce
Speaker 1: in there, I was like, wait a minute, but then
Speaker 1: I was like, that's kind of accurate though, sauce um.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so if all this manages to happen, then
Speaker 1: both Navine and Tiana as frogs will turn back into humans.
Speaker 1: But meanwhile, Navine is to use an expression that the
Speaker 1: kids are saying, he's catching some fields for Tiana, right,
Speaker 1: and he's about to tell her that he loves her
Speaker 1: and then also proposed to her. Question which is another
Speaker 1: thing that's very treated as like, of course, because the
Speaker 1: second that Charlotte meets Prince Navine, who's actually the other guy,
Speaker 1: she's they dance once and she's just like, I'm ready
Speaker 1: to get married, right, which is like a weird like
Speaker 1: movie trying to have it both ways, where it's like
Speaker 1: they're subscribing to the Cinderella logic of like we met,
Speaker 1: we're getting married, but it's also trying to be modern
Speaker 1: and it's like kind of failing at both right. But
Speaker 1: before Frog Navine can express his feelings to Tiana, he
Speaker 1: gets captured by the shadow creatures and they steal more
Speaker 1: of his blood so that Lawrence can turn back into
Speaker 1: Navine so that he can get married to Charlotte during
Speaker 1: the Mardi Gras parade, and then Frog Tianna sees them
Speaker 1: like about to get married, and she thinks it's the
Speaker 1: real Navine and she's like, no, that's my boyfriend, because
Speaker 1: I guess she also loves him. Question Mark, right, when
Speaker 1: do we know? Well, Caitlyn, of course she loves him.
Speaker 1: He legs her for most of the movie that subscribing
Speaker 1: by the rules of the game. And then Ray the
Speaker 1: Firefly helps Frog ven he escapes, and they steal the
Speaker 1: magic talisman that's holding the blood and then Ray gives
Speaker 1: it to Frog Tianna, who smashes it and Dr Facilier
Speaker 1: is like no, and then all the shadow demons kill him,
Speaker 1: but not before he squishes Ray the Firefly and kills him,
Speaker 1: and I guess we're supposed to be sad about that,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, I don't care about this character.
Speaker 1: But they throw the whole funeral for it. But how
Speaker 1: wild is it that they commit to killing the Firefly
Speaker 1: so shocked? That's like ifs Flounder got shocked. You're like,
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen to the fun sidekick? Right? There? Is
Speaker 1: there any precedent on which I mean, it's like in
Speaker 1: Disney Princess movies. Any in Disney beside Bambi's mom, who
Speaker 1: wasn't that who didn't feel that role? Like parents die
Speaker 1: but but or are already did? But yeah, kicks don't die.
Speaker 1: Like I was, I forgot about that and I was shocked.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god. And then I was like, well,
Speaker 1: something's gonna happen with the magic. He's gonna come back
Speaker 1: to life. But then they're like, no, he's a star. Now,
Speaker 1: he's a star. He actually and they throw a whole
Speaker 1: funeral for him, and you're like, first of all, I
Speaker 1: don't care about this character. Seven of all, it's just
Speaker 1: I was so shocked that they It's like if, yeah,
Speaker 1: if if Sebastian had actually been like caught by the
Speaker 1: chef and right, and they're like, he's happier now, Like, no,
Speaker 1: he's not. He's not. There's gonna he's now a shell
Speaker 1: on the island. Oh my god. And then it also,
Speaker 1: I mean this it's I know it's a cartoon, but
Speaker 1: the when when when the bug does, You're like, oh no,
Speaker 1: and then it starts raining. I'm like, realistically, this Bug's
Speaker 1: corps would be like like like the corps would not
Speaker 1: have survived at the funeral, like bug when you when
Speaker 1: I when a dead bug is rained on, it just
Speaker 1: turns to goop. Also, like like Danna just like crushed
Speaker 1: his dreams before he died. She was like, it's a star,
Speaker 1: it's not even a real thing. But again, he's not
Speaker 1: really an important character arguably didn't need to be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but who is Raymond? I didn't understand whatever shrug sug
Speaker 1: he dies. So then frog Novine is like, Okay, Charlotte,
Speaker 1: it's almost midnight, Please kiss me so that Tiana and
Speaker 1: I can turn back into humans. And you have to
Speaker 1: make sure you give Tiana the money for her restaurant,
Speaker 1: which arguably Charlotte should have done at the very beginning.
Speaker 1: But anyway, she kisses him, but it doesn't work. They
Speaker 1: don't turn back into humans. So then, in the wildest
Speaker 1: plot twist of all, Tiana and Levine decided to just
Speaker 1: stay frogs and then get married and gives up on
Speaker 1: her dreams. So wasn't So it's so funny because she's
Speaker 1: so hard working throughout the whole movie that for her
Speaker 1: to be like, yeah, I think this is just how
Speaker 1: it's going to be now trays her entirely. They're like
Speaker 1: she's like this could work, and then you're like, oh no,
Speaker 1: Like what about Oprah, where's my daughter? Like open? No
Speaker 1: one ever is is no, we never get to open
Speaker 1: to be like where's Tianna? Where she go? No one's
Speaker 1: asking where she is because Tiana still lives at home.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, she Oprah is missing her? Like but you know,
Speaker 1: she works eight ships of a job, you know, so
Speaker 1: she's probably like there, oh my god, like I just
Speaker 1: but like, you know, if this were like any lot like,
Speaker 1: she would have hopped on over to Oprah and then
Speaker 1: like hell right, I think for something. Right, But that's
Speaker 1: how little like the movie values their relationship. Also, her
Speaker 1: frog wedding, there's all these animals from the forest and
Speaker 1: it's like, you don't know, all these animals all been
Speaker 1: friends with like three animals, and one of them died
Speaker 1: after you yelled at it like that. Oh boy, it's
Speaker 1: I still kick it over that they killed the bug
Speaker 1: they killed. They get married as frogs, but here here's
Speaker 1: the okay, off a cliff there. It's just like I'm
Speaker 1: just think of all the different ways you could murder
Speaker 1: Disney sidekicks. Just I can't handle it, Okay. So then
Speaker 1: they get married as frogs, which Mama Odie officiates the wedding.
Speaker 1: But because they get married, and because Navine is a prince,
Speaker 1: that makes Tiana a princess. So when he kisses her
Speaker 1: at their wedding, he's kissing a princess, which is the
Speaker 1: thing that needed to break the spell. And that's what
Speaker 1: turns them back into humans, so other humans standing in
Speaker 1: the middle of a swamp kissing, and it's a his
Speaker 1: wife based plot twist at the end too, because they
Speaker 1: also have to explain it to the audience because you're
Speaker 1: like what uh, and like, well, you did kiss a
Speaker 1: princess because when I became your wife, I became a princess.
Speaker 1: So now I'm a princess. You kissed me and now
Speaker 1: we're hot again, and everyone's just like yay. And then
Speaker 1: where did they get the money? Is it from? You
Speaker 1: see his parents? For two seconds, I'm like, I guess
Speaker 1: maybe they're cool now. And then she but I don't
Speaker 1: think they get the money. I think they have an
Speaker 1: alligator that intimidates the bankers, Like yeah, she uses the
Speaker 1: money that she had earned through all of her serving jobs,
Speaker 1: and so they just but what about the person that
Speaker 1: outbid her? He's dead. I don't know. It was the
Speaker 1: firefly firefly hup. Hum. Fortunately he was killed, and so
Speaker 1: that was just just I mean, so many threads are left.
Speaker 1: She gives up at the end and then she's like,
Speaker 1: now that I'm your wife, I can achieve my dreams.
Speaker 1: You're like a cool message that pissed me off. So much. Well,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll get really
Speaker 1: a deep dive into the discussion gritty and we're back.
Speaker 1: Where should we start, Lexie? Where do you want to start?
Speaker 1: Where should we? But I mean, there's so much. Well,
Speaker 1: let's first talk about how in the opening they had
Speaker 1: the six year old feed like the entire Yes, she
Speaker 1: fed everybody on her block and she was like six
Speaker 1: years old, and that was like, I mean, this movie is.
Speaker 1: I tried to do as thorough as I could of
Speaker 1: a context corner for this because it's like I think
Speaker 1: it's a really bizarre because Disney is so determined to
Speaker 1: never make a meaningful comment on anything, it is weird
Speaker 1: to me that they chose to set this movie in
Speaker 1: a very specific place and time like Jim Crow era
Speaker 1: Jim Mouth just sanitize it to death. It also like
Speaker 1: upset me that, like it also is like a weird
Speaker 1: class thing, like like it's it's supposed to be a fantasy,
Speaker 1: Like it's like a it's a princess story, like there
Speaker 1: shouldn't be Like it felt like oh, there's like everybody
Speaker 1: that was bad was like kind of like they were
Speaker 1: like mostly white except for the voodoo man, and then
Speaker 1: there was like very classism where it was like rich
Speaker 1: white people and then poor black people, and then we
Speaker 1: only had like Navid who I don't know exactly. He's
Speaker 1: from Maldonia. He's like ethnically ambiguous, yes, but it just
Speaker 1: I don't know. It also bugged me. This is where
Speaker 1: I had like the biggest crocs with the movie is
Speaker 1: like she works so hard, and like everybody is always
Speaker 1: pooping on her working hard, right, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: confused because I feel like Tiana is so she lives
Speaker 1: in this non existent new or lends where Jim crow
Speaker 1: Law has never happened. Uh, rich white people are just like, whoops,
Speaker 1: we forgot to Like it's it's like that. I feel
Speaker 1: like that is like a very common thread in Disney
Speaker 1: movies when they're trying to avoid discussing systemic racism in
Speaker 1: any way. They're like, oh, well, the rich white people
Speaker 1: are kind of goofy. They're like a little bit dumb,
Speaker 1: but they're nice, but they're they're just kind of like
Speaker 1: they didn't they didn't think of it. Um. It's just
Speaker 1: like it's such a bizarre decision to set this in
Speaker 1: the Jim Grows South because it's like, first of all,
Speaker 1: like Charlotte could not have legally married Prince Navie, like
Speaker 1: interracial marriage is not legal at this time. There's a
Speaker 1: lot written on how like Tiana and Charlotte being able
Speaker 1: to be friends that share clothes like that would have
Speaker 1: been very unlikely, and just the white people in this
Speaker 1: story wouldn't have been like, oh, we're goofy, like they
Speaker 1: would have been enforcing systemic racism. But but in this
Speaker 1: like no one challenges the class system set up in
Speaker 1: this movie, no one challenges the racial politics of this world.
Speaker 1: Everyone's kind of friends, but all the people who are
Speaker 1: poor just happened to be black, Like it's the choices
Speaker 1: that were made to contextualize, like the setting and the
Speaker 1: time of this story are very bizarre. Like the fact
Speaker 1: that this is like the first black Disney princess is
Speaker 1: that's important representation that means a lot to a lot
Speaker 1: of people. And the character, at least at the beginning,
Speaker 1: is like a good character, Like she has more agency
Speaker 1: than most Disney princesses do. She has a dream that
Speaker 1: doesn't involve getting married, like she she has more from
Speaker 1: the jump than a lot of Disney princesses do. But
Speaker 1: then it's just like sold out so through and then
Speaker 1: to take all that and then like yeah, put it
Speaker 1: in this bizarrow the fantasy world. Does I think the
Speaker 1: first black Disney Prince as a huge disservice And then
Speaker 1: like you already said, like she we don't even see
Speaker 1: her as a black woman from most of the movie,
Speaker 1: which doesn't. Yeah, yeah, they had to Disney. I was
Speaker 1: I was reading that they had to change it because
Speaker 1: originally they had it named the Frog Princess and so
Speaker 1: there was like a lot of backlash of that. And
Speaker 1: then they also tried to name her Maddie, but it
Speaker 1: came to it sounded too close to Mammy. And then
Speaker 1: she also was a maid at some point, like I
Speaker 1: think to like Charlotte's family. Yes, yeah, that was like
Speaker 1: the original plant. I mean, it will not surprise anyone
Speaker 1: that this movie was directed by Whiteman. There is a
Speaker 1: credited black writer on the movie, along with two white writers.
Speaker 1: The music was somehow written by like it's a movie
Speaker 1: that takes place in New Orleans and Randy Newman wrote
Speaker 1: the music. Kid can't figure it can't crack that one. Uh,
Speaker 1: And it's just when you see the production team that
Speaker 1: was behind this movie. It's very easy to understand. Of
Speaker 1: course they funked it up. It also was funny, like
Speaker 1: as like a weird side note, the people that wrote
Speaker 1: this movie actually also wrote Aladdin. And it's interesting because
Speaker 1: I feel like the shadow Man, like his intro kind
Speaker 1: of sounded like the Genie is a little bit, and
Speaker 1: then I feel like they were did it feel like
Speaker 1: visually they were referencing the Genie song at the end
Speaker 1: of the shadow Man song where it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: at the end, like the Genie like there's all these
Speaker 1: other chid just popping up and then he's in the center,
Speaker 1: and it just felt really similar. No, it definitely did.
Speaker 1: And also the other thing that kind of like was
Speaker 1: annoying as like, is that like she kept having this
Speaker 1: dream and like even when she raised the money and
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, you finally raise the money for
Speaker 1: your dream, her mom was like, well what about a man? Like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, okay, let me break this down because I
Speaker 1: was like, what is this. So there's a recurring theme
Speaker 1: throughout the whole movie, basically saying like all you need
Speaker 1: is love to quote the famous song. So it starts
Speaker 1: with Tiana's mom, whose name we do learn you, Dora,
Speaker 1: she's like your dad never you know, lived out to
Speaker 1: see his dream to have the restaurant, but that didn't
Speaker 1: matter because he had love in his life. So and
Speaker 1: that's and that's what I went for you, Tiana, to
Speaker 1: meet your prince charming and dance off into your happily
Speaker 1: ever after. And then Tiana is like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: have time for dancing, and then you doors like, but
Speaker 1: I want grandchildren. So it's like this theme is established
Speaker 1: that like having hopes and dreams is kind of stupid,
Speaker 1: especially if they relate to your career and are not
Speaker 1: really necessary as long as you have love in your life.
Speaker 1: And this is again, I think, like a bizarre choice
Speaker 1: to ignore the time period so thoroughly, because it's like
Speaker 1: I feel like maybe it's a more nuanced conversation if
Speaker 1: her mother is saying basically like these opportunities aren't afforded
Speaker 1: to women, much less to black women who are from
Speaker 1: a poor background, Like I feel like that is more
Speaker 1: like there's an opportunity to make commentary. But then she
Speaker 1: just comes off sounding sexist because this world, the world
Speaker 1: of this movie is such a that you like sucking
Speaker 1: void of messing nous that She's just like, you can't
Speaker 1: open a restaurant, not because of all this oppression, it's
Speaker 1: because I want a grandkid now. And then this goes
Speaker 1: double down on a little later when the frogs reach
Speaker 1: Mama Odi and she sings this whole song about like
Speaker 1: who cares about what you want? It's it's about digging
Speaker 1: a little deeper and figuring out what you need. And
Speaker 1: the implication here, at least as far as I could tell,
Speaker 1: was what you need is romantic love. Ye. Also, by
Speaker 1: the way, when she kept saying dig deeper, I was like,
Speaker 1: is she shanty? Like? Am I supposed to squat? Like
Speaker 1: from insanity? It's just like it It is just like
Speaker 1: one of the first Disney I'm trying to think of
Speaker 1: if prior to Tiana, like were there Disney princesses that
Speaker 1: really had dreams outside of romantic love, Like like it's
Speaker 1: like you look at Mulan, but like Mulan like everyone
Speaker 1: else is like you're a badass, like that's really cool,
Speaker 1: like your your kick butt, whereas her everyone's like you're
Speaker 1: a killed joy. Tiana got that scene with her friends
Speaker 1: at the beginning where they're like, are you gonna come
Speaker 1: out dancing? She's like, no, I work seventeen jobs. And
Speaker 1: they're like, Tiana is so awful. I can't believe how
Speaker 1: hard she works to open up business, and like this
Speaker 1: this doesn't happen. This is like absurd, and it happens
Speaker 1: like literally all the time throughout the whole movie. Are
Speaker 1: like why are you working? Including Navina, And then I
Speaker 1: love that Navina is like, well, you know, I'll take
Speaker 1: jobs so that you can get your restaurant. It's like,
Speaker 1: well she's doing good raising the money on her own. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's like such an I mean, and and it's not
Speaker 1: lost on us either that like she has to work
Speaker 1: ten times harder than any Disney princess has ever had
Speaker 1: to for anything. Like I mean, Cinderella technically had a
Speaker 1: job sort of, I guess, but like, but you know,
Speaker 1: like Tiana is under way more pressure and she's made
Speaker 1: fun of for it, and you're just like this, you
Speaker 1: can't do both. You can't do you know. One is
Speaker 1: like people should be hiring how hard she get it.
Speaker 1: Everyone's just like you fucking idiot with your dumbass dreams.
Speaker 1: I mean, her having to work so hard to get
Speaker 1: access to anything is one of the only things that
Speaker 1: lines up with the world that they are putting you in,
Speaker 1: but then everyone's reaction to it takes place in nowhere land. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just like in the Disney Void. It's so frustrating because
Speaker 1: it's it is. I mean, I am at least glad
Speaker 1: that you get to see that like determined side of
Speaker 1: Tiana at the beginning. No, for sure, I like I
Speaker 1: am glad that, Like I feel like I have a
Speaker 1: complicated relationship because I do like that she is a
Speaker 1: hard worker and she does have goals, but I don't
Speaker 1: like that she was like goal shame throughout the whole movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's and the fact that, like the movie ends with
Speaker 1: her opening up the restaurant after all, and she does
Speaker 1: it with money that she earned waiting tables and not
Speaker 1: that like Navine was like, here are my riches to
Speaker 1: give to you, Like she worked hard for it and
Speaker 1: she earned what she got. And then it does seem
Speaker 1: like she's the breadwinner of their relationship because she's the
Speaker 1: one who's like running this restaurant and Navine's parents had
Speaker 1: cut him off. But then they're also at the wedding
Speaker 1: in they're life hi, and you're like money again, probably
Speaker 1: a wedding gift, but before that, um To kind of
Speaker 1: continue on this theme of like dreams are pretty silly
Speaker 1: and love is what you need. When Dr Facilier is
Speaker 1: like showing Tiana what she could have and he could
Speaker 1: grant her this wish and he says something or she's like,
Speaker 1: you know, my father never had what he wanted, but
Speaker 1: he had what he needed. He had love. And it's
Speaker 1: like so another like doubling down on this theme. So basically,
Speaker 1: like Tiana learns the lesson that all you need is
Speaker 1: romantic love in your life. And then at the end,
Speaker 1: Navine is like, well, I have to marry Charlotte. It's
Speaker 1: the only way for you to get your dream Tiana,
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, my dream wouldn't be complete without
Speaker 1: you in it. And it's like since when like you
Speaker 1: met him earlier today, that's I mean, then that's like
Speaker 1: the Disney Princess. But it is like of all the
Speaker 1: places that Disney tries to subvert in this movie that
Speaker 1: you're like, why would you do that, that's the one
Speaker 1: place that they don't subvert from like we met and
Speaker 1: now we're in love. It's funny. Out of all the
Speaker 1: Disney princesses, I felt like this was like the most
Speaker 1: heavy handed about like money is bad. I love when
Speaker 1: Disney says money is bad and you're like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to Star wars Land. What I mean,
Speaker 1: the message of this movie is so convolated because it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's been a lot, a lot, a lot
Speaker 1: written on the impact of this movie, how it's aged,
Speaker 1: even in the ten years it's been released, and it
Speaker 1: is like, I mean, there's more to be said about
Speaker 1: the production background of this movie where I mean John
Speaker 1: Lasseter was at the head of this production, which that
Speaker 1: that fact doesn't age well. Um and and he hired
Speaker 1: a bunch of like legacy Disney white guys to come
Speaker 1: in and right and craft this movie because New Orleans
Speaker 1: was his favorite city. But you're just like, uh, there's
Speaker 1: no like it seems like very little research was done,
Speaker 1: very little consideration was done because there was no one
Speaker 1: in the room too, Like they wouldn't allow anyone in
Speaker 1: the room who would say something when this movie came out,
Speaker 1: So two thou same year that Barack Obama has taken office,
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of movies that came out
Speaker 1: like shortly after Obama is elected that sort of are
Speaker 1: touting this like color blind world and that like this
Speaker 1: movie very much subscribes to that of like, well, now
Speaker 1: that we have a like our first non white president,
Speaker 1: racism is fixed and no one like the the the
Speaker 1: legacy of racism doesn't affect this country any at all anymore.
Speaker 1: And also there was a lot of upset when this
Speaker 1: movie was announced as taking place in New Orleans because
Speaker 1: while especially while it was in production and still in
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, New Orleans itself had been so thoroughly
Speaker 1: affected by Hurricane Katrina that it like forced like hundreds
Speaker 1: of thousands of black residents out, And I was like,
Speaker 1: and now we're gonna we solved racism in the nine twenties. Here,
Speaker 1: It's just like there's a lot of yeah, every like
Speaker 1: almost everything about the production of this movie is a
Speaker 1: is a very bad look. Yeah, for sure, some of
Speaker 1: the sequences are pretty though. Can we talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the love story component of it? So
Speaker 1: we already kind of hinted at this, but this is
Speaker 1: another example of a love story that starts with a
Speaker 1: man negging and undermining a woman. Uh, he first says like, oh,
Speaker 1: I thought you were a princess but you're just a waitress.
Speaker 1: Then he calls her a kill joy, a stick in
Speaker 1: the mud who doesn't know how to have fun, and
Speaker 1: then moments later they are suddenly in love. Like I
Speaker 1: don't know where this comes from. He's also like the
Speaker 1: slimiest dude. And I'm not talking about like the frog
Speaker 1: trap the mucus. The mucus plot point. I was like,
Speaker 1: are you serious or at the Antiana is like, actually
Speaker 1: it's Lucus, Like what, yeah, yeah, he's actually he's such
Speaker 1: an asshole for sure. And it's interesting too, like throughout
Speaker 1: the movie, like in regards to him, they keep talking
Speaker 1: about like women are going to hold you down, like
Speaker 1: when he's at the shadow Man the shadow Man is
Speaker 1: like he's like, oh, if you get a wife, you
Speaker 1: won't be able to live your life or something like that.
Speaker 1: It's it's frustrated because it's like his whole character indicates
Speaker 1: to young people watching the movie that you can have
Speaker 1: all the ambition in the world, you can get seven
Speaker 1: percent of the way there, but you still need a
Speaker 1: man with resources negging you to achieve anything. And then
Speaker 1: another thing is that when Navine mistakes Tiana for being
Speaker 1: a princess, she clears it up right away, and she's like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not a princess. I'm a waitress. If the genders
Speaker 1: had been swapped and it was the woman mistaking the
Speaker 1: man for being a prince, I feel like it almost
Speaker 1: certainly would have been a story about him lying to
Speaker 1: her for the whole movie and being like, yes, I
Speaker 1: am my prince who's also a frog um. And I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that, like all men are liars, and I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that women never lie, but so many movies
Speaker 1: are about a man lying to a woman and not
Speaker 1: coming clean until the very end. So I guess I
Speaker 1: liked that, you know, Tiana was like, no, I'm not
Speaker 1: the person you think I am. Tiana is she's the best.
Speaker 1: She's honest, and she's nice and she works hard. And
Speaker 1: also there's a joke where it's implied that frog Navine
Speaker 1: tries to have sex with frog Tianna when they're like
Speaker 1: hiding in the stump from the alligators. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: we could get cozy, and then she's like get away
Speaker 1: from me, and it's like you're trying to funk when
Speaker 1: you're a frog. It just I feel like there's so
Speaker 1: many like you could do a drinking game about all
Speaker 1: the times he's mentioned women in the thing where he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've dated thousands of girls, and there's a boy. He
Speaker 1: has a boy, I mean, and and a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of Disney princess I mean, at least he has.
Speaker 1: He has more of a personality than many Disney princes do,
Speaker 1: but um, his personaliz is bad so that I also
Speaker 1: don't even know. Like it's interesting because I feel like
Speaker 1: in the past whatever twenty years, Disney princess have been
Speaker 1: imbued with personality more and more frequently, which is good
Speaker 1: in one way, but in another way, you're like, well,
Speaker 1: what if we give the you know, princess more personality
Speaker 1: and more things to do instead of being like, we
Speaker 1: have to know this man's interior life. Like I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't feel any particular way about it.
Speaker 1: But it is interesting. Also there was like like you said,
Speaker 1: like I don't understand why she fell in love with him,
Speaker 1: Like there was they didn't have he like ja, she
Speaker 1: seemed like okay about jazz, Like she didn't seem obsessed,
Speaker 1: she wasn't like super into yeah yeah, and then she
Speaker 1: like taught him how to like and then she was like,
Speaker 1: now I love him. It's well, they comes out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: I feel like where they tried to set that up
Speaker 1: and it just doesn't work, and it comes off a
Speaker 1: little like is at the beginning when she's serving Charlotte
Speaker 1: and Big Daddy also Big Daddy Jesus where she says, like,
Speaker 1: the way to a man's heart is through his stomach.
Speaker 1: So I feel like we're supposed to connect the dots
Speaker 1: of like when she cooks for him because woman, she
Speaker 1: realizes that she loves him. Right, That didn't track at all.
Speaker 1: I don't follow the logic there. Also, did you catch
Speaker 1: the part where when he's trying to propose to her,
Speaker 1: I guess while they're still frogs, He says, you could
Speaker 1: not be more different. You're practically one of the guys
Speaker 1: A k A. You're not like the other girls, says it,
Speaker 1: and she's like, according to this movie, that's she is
Speaker 1: not like because she's the girls hate her or are
Speaker 1: like lobotomized like they did to Charlotte. God, everyone has
Speaker 1: just done a disservice. Yeah, um, we got to take
Speaker 1: another quick break, but we'll come right back. Where shall
Speaker 1: we go from here? Oh? Let me see. Um, well,
Speaker 1: shall we talk about the representation of voodoo in the film. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. So I did a little bit of research.
Speaker 1: I found a piece from the Huffington's post entitled great
Speaker 1: Source entitled what is Voodoo Understanding a Misunderstood Religion by
Speaker 1: samya Aria hass I probably mispronounced most of that, but
Speaker 1: she is a writer and also a priestess of both
Speaker 1: Hinduism and Voodoo, which, um, the preferred spelling of voodoo
Speaker 1: is v O d o you for just anyone who's curious.
Speaker 1: The quotes that I will share from this piece only
Speaker 1: really scratched the surface of what there is to know
Speaker 1: about the Voodoo religion. But I do have a few
Speaker 1: quotes that I found to be the most relevant to
Speaker 1: our discussion. Starting with quote, Voodoo isn't accurately portrayed in
Speaker 1: most movies, TV shows, and books. Voodoo isn't a cult,
Speaker 1: black magic, or devil worship. People who practice voodoo are
Speaker 1: not witch doctors, sorcerers, or occultists. Voodoo isn't a practice
Speaker 1: intended to hurt or control others. Most voodooists have never
Speaker 1: seen a voodoo doll, unless, like you, they saw it
Speaker 1: in a movie, Voodoo isn't morbid or violent end quote. Um.
Speaker 1: So the reason all this is relevant is because the
Speaker 1: character of Dr Facilier is framed as being I don't
Speaker 1: even know if he's like a voodoo I don't know exactly,
Speaker 1: but he participates in this Hollywood Disney version of voodoo. Yes,
Speaker 1: And interestingly, I feel like they try to contextualize their
Speaker 1: interpretation of voodoo. They also make it directly correlate to
Speaker 1: Christianity by indicating that there's something having to do with
Speaker 1: the devil and like demonic experience, which is not even
Speaker 1: a part of this, but they I feel like Disney
Speaker 1: almost makes the assumption like we're going to have to
Speaker 1: talk to people on a Christian level, so we have
Speaker 1: to connect these two things that are not related. Right.
Speaker 1: The way that voodoo is depicted in this movie and
Speaker 1: many others is that it's like this scary CULTI mystical,
Speaker 1: but in like a nefarious mysticism way, And that's not
Speaker 1: what it is. I've got another few quotes from this author. Quote,
Speaker 1: racism clouds our view of voodoo. It is rooted in
Speaker 1: slavery and intricately connected to this hemisphere's political and social evolution.
Speaker 1: Voodoo was first practiced in America and the Caribbean by
Speaker 1: slaves of African descent, whose culture was both feared and ridiculed.
Speaker 1: Slaves were not considered fully human, their religion was dismissed
Speaker 1: as superstition, their priests were denigrated as witch doctors, their
Speaker 1: gods and spirits were denounced as evil end quote um,
Speaker 1: which explains a lot of why voodoo is depicted the
Speaker 1: way it is in media, and it has everything to
Speaker 1: do with racism. Believe it or not. Go figure Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: I I did a little research on this as well,
Speaker 1: and it basically does very clearly boils down to racism,
Speaker 1: specifically a very American kind of racism that's very specific
Speaker 1: to this region um where Louisiana. Voodoo is something that's
Speaker 1: very commonly cited. And it's like there's been from what
Speaker 1: I can tell, and if any listeners are out there
Speaker 1: that have seen a positive, measured depiction of voodoo in
Speaker 1: popular culture, it doesn't seem like it's happened. And there's
Speaker 1: also been. There was a whole season of American Horror Story.
Speaker 1: I don't watch that show, but there's a lot written
Speaker 1: on how there was an entire season that hinged on
Speaker 1: this very racist view of Louisiana voodoo um and what
Speaker 1: it boils down to is um. I think we've had
Speaker 1: similar conversations about Disney villains in this regard, where a
Speaker 1: lot of Disney villains are coded women in stem with
Speaker 1: women with power and this is kind of an an
Speaker 1: analog for black people with power and making it as
Speaker 1: villainous and threatening as possible. Uh So, it's it's not
Speaker 1: only like a very specific type of racism that has
Speaker 1: never really been challenged in popular media yet, but it
Speaker 1: also like fits right into it. It's like, just based
Speaker 1: on Disney's history, it makes a lot of sense that
Speaker 1: they would go for this because that's how they treat
Speaker 1: like some of their white of Just like, how can
Speaker 1: we make power that isn't big daddy like the big
Speaker 1: daddies of the world. How can we make it threatening
Speaker 1: and evil and villainous? And Yeah, that's a very interesting
Speaker 1: point because like even on the flip side, like you
Speaker 1: have Mama Odie and she's still like very cartoonish. We
Speaker 1: don't actually see like none of her magic actually helps.
Speaker 1: It's kind of just like, yeah, it's just like good
Speaker 1: luck kids, Dig deep. That was the closest I could
Speaker 1: get to be. I mean, I'm like, well, I guess
Speaker 1: that there is an example of a black character with
Speaker 1: magic who is using it for good. It's still completely
Speaker 1: misunderstands everything, but at least it isn't painting the company.
Speaker 1: But then it's like, yeah, you're right, she doesn't do
Speaker 1: she doesn't really her magic doesn't work. Yeah, and she's
Speaker 1: also like not like she she's kind of senile. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they make her out. Does not seem super like competent,
Speaker 1: I guess, and not particularly I mean clearly not particularly
Speaker 1: good at what she does, because what she does doesn't
Speaker 1: really affect the plot until the end, where it suddenly does.
Speaker 1: She's just like, uh, just fucking fall in love and
Speaker 1: then you'll get everything you want. High magic is the
Speaker 1: magic of a head rolla. Just like that's not a thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So so it is complete misunderstanding. It could have been
Speaker 1: her song could have been like shared do you believe?
Speaker 1: Oh it's it's so it's so frustrating, and I mean,
Speaker 1: like Disney has never set something in the American South
Speaker 1: and had it gone well, ever, like there there's also
Speaker 1: a lot written about this movie comparing it, I mean
Speaker 1: with less egregiousness, but still with some of the same
Speaker 1: themes that people are very critical of. Uh In Song
Speaker 1: of the South, which is like the only Disney movie
Speaker 1: that's ever been truly buried, and there's actually past guest
Speaker 1: of the show Carein a Longworth did a great um
Speaker 1: I think like five or six part series on like
Speaker 1: the history and the legacy of that movie on her
Speaker 1: podcast you must remember this. It's really good, but basically
Speaker 1: because most of us haven't really seen that movie, and
Speaker 1: with good reason, that takes place in the American South
Speaker 1: and has the similar vibe that we have with Tiana's
Speaker 1: family and Charlotte's family, where it's like, yes, the white
Speaker 1: people are very much in control, the black people in
Speaker 1: the story are mostly working for them, but there's no
Speaker 1: problem here. Everything's fine. And so a lot of writers
Speaker 1: at the time of this movie's released interpreted this, I
Speaker 1: think pretty correctly as an updated version of this world
Speaker 1: that never had like like the most Disney approach to racism,
Speaker 1: and they're like, but it didn't really happen, like because
Speaker 1: like that relationship, especially between Tiana and Charlotte, that dynamic
Speaker 1: is so bizarre because they seem to be pretty good friends.
Speaker 1: But like Charlotte seems to be completely blissfully ignorant of
Speaker 1: any of Tiana's struggles. And then she also seems to
Speaker 1: treat Tiana as like someone who works for her and
Speaker 1: serves her rather than like a friend in in an
Speaker 1: equal like Tiana wasn't even invited to the ball as
Speaker 1: a guest. Like, yeah, also, can we just quickly sorry side,
Speaker 1: can we just talk about this scene when she gives
Speaker 1: Tiana the dress and she she fixes her girls and
Speaker 1: like puts them up. And I was like Disney usually
Speaker 1: never acknowledges like they might have, but never like she was.
Speaker 1: Just every Disney princess has like a uni boob. They're like,
Speaker 1: this is just a feminine area. That is true. Their
Speaker 1: their friendship is I mean, outside of the historical context
Speaker 1: we've already discussed, it's a bummer because it's like they
Speaker 1: seem to be very close friends, but really yeah, like
Speaker 1: Tiana is very attentive to Charlotte's needs. Charlotte does things
Speaker 1: for Tiana, but really only when it serves herself. Um.
Speaker 1: And I also think that Charlotte's character is kind of
Speaker 1: very like Mired in Tropes as well, where it's like
Speaker 1: kind of this failed attempt for Disney to comment on itself,
Speaker 1: I think by doubling down on like at misogynist tropes
Speaker 1: of like all she wants is marriage. Look at how
Speaker 1: stupid she is. This is all she cares about, and
Speaker 1: like that doesn't help anything either. Also, wasn't it so
Speaker 1: gross in the end when Charlotte is like, I didn't
Speaker 1: know Prince Navide had a brother and it's six year old,
Speaker 1: and she goes, she goes, well, I waited, you know,
Speaker 1: for one Prince, I could wait for I'm not quoting
Speaker 1: it directly, but she's like, I can't wait for you
Speaker 1: to be legal so I can have sex with you.
Speaker 1: Like this gives in the first grade there, that was
Speaker 1: that was getting some real Jacob from Twilight vibes. She
Speaker 1: printed on, Yeah, that was the only thing in the
Speaker 1: movie that I mean, well that's not true. A lot
Speaker 1: of things in this movie that you're like no, but
Speaker 1: like the only thing that I was like, this is
Speaker 1: just this is bald face like madness, um, other than
Speaker 1: killing the killing the bug and sending the bug to
Speaker 1: Star Heaven. So so, I mean, I I don't really
Speaker 1: have much to say about Charlotte outside of like it
Speaker 1: seemed like they were trying to make a commentary on
Speaker 1: the criticisms of past Disney princesses of like why do
Speaker 1: they want to be in love so bad? Why don't
Speaker 1: they have any dreams outside of this? And instead they
Speaker 1: just doubled down on it and made a mockery of it.
Speaker 1: And what purpose did that serve? It didn't serve any
Speaker 1: narrative purpose, Like they just were like women her, especially
Speaker 1: because it's like her goal that she's friend was having
Speaker 1: is like she just wants to marry a rich a prince.
Speaker 1: She's already rich. She just wants I guess, the status
Speaker 1: of being a princess. But like boiled down, it's like
Speaker 1: she just wants to be married, and that's seen as
Speaker 1: something that's like what a fucking idiot for just wanting that.
Speaker 1: But then on the other side of things, they're like, well, Tiana,
Speaker 1: your dreams, I mean, good for you for having them,
Speaker 1: I guess, but really all you need is love. So
Speaker 1: bithology of this movie all women are stupid. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's a lose lose situation. Also, how fast that Charlotte
Speaker 1: like agreed to me, Like as soon as he proposed
Speaker 1: he was like, I gotta go make plans, and I mean,
Speaker 1: Tianna seems to be like living in a more modern
Speaker 1: version of the world of like you just met him,
Speaker 1: and Charlotte's living in another version of the world where
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, so we're getting married and you're just
Speaker 1: like what is And I don't know. Also heard her
Speaker 1: dad have like it seemed like they had no concept
Speaker 1: of money, Like they just were handing out hundred dollar
Speaker 1: bills to people, being like this will cover it because
Speaker 1: he does it to the newspaper boy, and then she
Speaker 1: does it to Tiana and for the beignets, And I
Speaker 1: was like, Tiana, why didn't you get on these beignets earlier?
Speaker 1: It seems like you could have he could have, Just
Speaker 1: like why didn't Charlotte give Tiana a business loan? Because
Speaker 1: their friends like I don't understand, like, and I feel
Speaker 1: like that just plays more into the like they weren't racist.
Speaker 1: They were just these bumbling duphaces of like, yeah, John
Speaker 1: Goodman trips and a million dollars falls out. It's not
Speaker 1: that he was withholding money from anyone if that, he
Speaker 1: just she just didn't see them. He just Also Charlotte
Speaker 1: was like mean to like some random boy, Like in
Speaker 1: the thing she just said to him, she said, if
Speaker 1: I say later, that means never loser. Right, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't, Like, I do understand why they're doing it,
Speaker 1: but it just makes you even more So. I think
Speaker 1: that Charlotte is I mean, she's she's not just none
Speaker 1: of the female characters are well now. The characters are
Speaker 1: well reading. Which brings me to the Animal Friends. Um,
Speaker 1: I think that there's a big section of this movie
Speaker 1: that nothing happens in basically the second that Tiana becomes
Speaker 1: a frog, nothing happens for a very long time. Uh,
Speaker 1: They're just kind of hopping around the bio. It's it's like,
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. The animation is great, but I would argue
Speaker 1: that most of the animal friends that they meet in
Speaker 1: this long stretch of nothingness are admired in tropes that
Speaker 1: are either of like poor people or black people. And
Speaker 1: then it just it just gets like, why are we
Speaker 1: doing this? I think that Raymond the firefly who was killed,
Speaker 1: is the worst example of this. Were the way that
Speaker 1: he's animated, the way that he's stylized. He's given like
Speaker 1: a Cajun accent, right, and then his teeth are all
Speaker 1: fucked up, Like I feel like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stereotypes as particularly of like poor people in the South.
Speaker 1: We also see humans who are supposed to be poor
Speaker 1: in the South like like like, oh, when you don't
Speaker 1: have money, you just are falling all the time, like,
Speaker 1: but also the rich people are following, and you're like,
Speaker 1: who does anything here? She's the one holding down the city,
Speaker 1: the only person who can do a fucking thing in
Speaker 1: this town. It's ridiculars, I mean, but it's like, I
Speaker 1: think that this is another through line in Disney movies
Speaker 1: of even because like I love animation so much, and
Speaker 1: it's people telling themselves so easily in animation, where like
Speaker 1: the people you're supposed to care about are drawn to
Speaker 1: be you know, Western beauty standard hot people, and the
Speaker 1: people who you are not supposed to who are a
Speaker 1: joke are drawn very differently. And that applies to other
Speaker 1: I mean that the way that people are like Belle
Speaker 1: looks very different than everyone in the French town, and
Speaker 1: they're drawn like cartoons. They're like they're they are not
Speaker 1: drawn to be sexy princesses, and the way that they
Speaker 1: drew like people who didn't have as much money, the
Speaker 1: way that they drew the animal friends who were supposed
Speaker 1: to be stand ins for other trupes. It's just ridiculous. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It also also to add to the firefly thing, I
Speaker 1: thought it was really interesting that the reason he loves
Speaker 1: Evangeline the stars because she's so bright, like it's brittain beautiful.
Speaker 1: She doesn't talk, and he's like, she's shy, but I
Speaker 1: love her. And it's like, oh, I didn't even think
Speaker 1: of that. That was like the first thing I picked
Speaker 1: up on. I was like, I was like, she you
Speaker 1: don't know who what her personality is because she's a star,
Speaker 1: and yet you love her. Oh my world, like feminie,
Speaker 1: this icon Evangeline what I kind of like, they're god feminist.
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know her story, another woman robbed
Speaker 1: of a coherent plot. And then also when when Ray
Speaker 1: dies and becomes a star next to her, like what
Speaker 1: if she didn't want that? She never got to speak,
Speaker 1: she didn't consent to Ray the star. Let's be honest,
Speaker 1: it was just another star. The bug died. The bug
Speaker 1: dies like the full dead. No, he's a start. What
Speaker 1: if I died on this? Rose dies like the end
Speaker 1: of Titanic. Rose falls asleep and has a dream. At
Speaker 1: the end of Titanic, she does not dies what I meant,
Speaker 1: she dies, But but you know who else dies? Ray
Speaker 1: and he doesn't come back as anything. He just dies.
Speaker 1: He stepped on by the villain and he dies. And
Speaker 1: why did he do that? It? Also yeah, it just yeah,
Speaker 1: it was it was unnecessary death. Also, but I do
Speaker 1: like what you said about Philander dying, just like, have
Speaker 1: you got harpoons in the third act of the movie
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, no, Ursula harpooned flounder and then
Speaker 1: Flounder They're like, oh, but look he's up, he's the
Speaker 1: sun now, No, he's not harpooned. Also, did you notice
Speaker 1: how like we were touching on the like animation a
Speaker 1: little bit and like the design when they're frogs. I
Speaker 1: feel like Tiana, they're still designing frog Tiana as like
Speaker 1: Western beauty standard frog because she's like, yeah, visibly much
Speaker 1: thinner then Navine frog. So it's like, what do you
Speaker 1: They found a way to make the frog fam they
Speaker 1: fam I mean, and they do that thing that there's
Speaker 1: like all those great Anita Sarkisian videos about where they
Speaker 1: like basically gave her the like miss pac Man treatment.
Speaker 1: Where it's like she's a slender, curvy frog with long
Speaker 1: eyelashes and you're like, it's a frog, but the fucking frog. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they just they just really find ways to do Tiana
Speaker 1: and every female character dirty in every way. We sort
Speaker 1: of discussed this already, but the way that her relationship
Speaker 1: with her mother is treated is like just again takes
Speaker 1: place in this void where the mother is allowed to live,
Speaker 1: but all she does is neg her daughter or talk
Speaker 1: about the father like there's no the father is still
Speaker 1: the driving influence in Tiana's life. It was it was
Speaker 1: like she didn't have a dream of her own. It
Speaker 1: was like her dad's dream. And then she gave her
Speaker 1: dad's dream up so that she could have the dream
Speaker 1: with the v right, I give up on her dad's vision.
Speaker 1: It's so, I mean I like it. Terrence Howard is
Speaker 1: the dad, and the dad Dad is like such a
Speaker 1: lovely character. But but yeah, she's just carrying out her
Speaker 1: father's vision. And then yeah, I mean, yeah, like I
Speaker 1: agree with you. Like the dad does say like some
Speaker 1: great things where he's like, don't just wish like actually
Speaker 1: be in action. He wants her to be somebody who
Speaker 1: does something in the town, and it's not just which
Speaker 1: is then nothing for there's a lot of Disney dads
Speaker 1: that are like, you don't you can't do anything, so
Speaker 1: that again it's like a little subversion. But then also
Speaker 1: another character stuff or says with the results of that subversion,
Speaker 1: I still I love Tiana. I just it's so I
Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, correct me, if I'm right. I feel
Speaker 1: like the general vibe around Tiana is that we all
Speaker 1: love her, and we all wanted better for her, yes,
Speaker 1: a hundred percent. Like I did not want her to
Speaker 1: marry a mediocreman, and that's what she did. Right. I'm glad.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad that she got her beautiful restaurant,
Speaker 1: don't I don't know. I mean this this fucking movie
Speaker 1: ignores the fact that women just got the right to vote.
Speaker 1: Maybe depending on when in the like, you're just just
Speaker 1: like because if this was like set current day, you know,
Speaker 1: because like n he like explains like when they're in
Speaker 1: the when she's helping him mince the thing, He's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I lived with all these servants. I don't know how
Speaker 1: to do anything. And it's like, you know, if this
Speaker 1: was like Wney should be helping him fill out of
Speaker 1: W four right, it's uh there there's also I mean,
Speaker 1: if you go beyond just the actual movie itself, it's
Speaker 1: really frustrating that, you know, any time that there is
Speaker 1: especially in a company like Disney, anytime that there is
Speaker 1: a protagonist that isn't like a thin white someone, there's
Speaker 1: so much more writing on the production's success. Um, then
Speaker 1: if there's a so so Disney princess movie that's like,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, a French white girl and it does okay,
Speaker 1: people were like, whatever, we'll make another. It's fine. But
Speaker 1: there was so much pressure put on this movie that
Speaker 1: was in some ways. I mean, it was successful, it
Speaker 1: made its money back and then some, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: the gigantic smash hit that they wanted, which is a
Speaker 1: great excuse for people who don't want black leads and
Speaker 1: movies to not make movies anymore. When the problem was
Speaker 1: that they wrote an incoherent movie that liked like it's
Speaker 1: so it's like you wrote a bad movie. That's why
Speaker 1: it didn't make as much money as you wanted. You
Speaker 1: also released it the week but like at the same
Speaker 1: time as Avatar. That's another reason that it didn't do.
Speaker 1: And the marketing around this movie. I mean there's some
Speaker 1: isolated examples of like some pretty like racist marketing of
Speaker 1: of this movie and the way it was marketed to
Speaker 1: young girls. I mean it was sexist and racist, it
Speaker 1: was just everything because men be marketing shit. Uh and
Speaker 1: it's just and and even as recently as two years ago, um,
Speaker 1: when Ralph Breaks the Internet came out, there's that scene
Speaker 1: where all the princesses show up and they're like blah
Speaker 1: blah blah meta commentary, and you're like, fucking whatever. But
Speaker 1: in the original trailer they had like lightened Tiana's skin
Speaker 1: and changed her facial structure to hair. Yeah, and and
Speaker 1: then people were like, um, excuse me. And then they're like, oh, sorry,
Speaker 1: we thought we could get away with it. Sorry, and
Speaker 1: then they changed her crazy. I remember that they did that.
Speaker 1: I can't remember which actors, but they did that on
Speaker 1: like a magazine cover where they like lightning and like
Speaker 1: a real life person. I can't remember who. It was
Speaker 1: fucking ridiculous. And there there are also stories from two
Speaker 1: thousand nine, when you know, it's always this big deal
Speaker 1: when princess is added to official canon, because that is
Speaker 1: like a thing, and this is very granular, but Disney
Speaker 1: princess merch sells like fucking hotcakes. It's back Pagas's lunch boxes,
Speaker 1: as t shirts, as everything. But just because you're a
Speaker 1: Disney princess, doesn't mean that you're on the merch, right,
Speaker 1: So Mulan is often not on the merch. Pocahon's is
Speaker 1: almost never on the merchants, and so Tianna. They were
Speaker 1: basically like, guess what Tiana is going to be on
Speaker 1: the merch, which is like, whoo, she should be on
Speaker 1: the merch. So they said to put on the merch.
Speaker 1: But then there were all these things that have happened
Speaker 1: to multiple Disney princesses, but it was especially egregious with Tiana,
Speaker 1: where they changed the color of hers in by a
Speaker 1: little bit, they changed the structure of her face just
Speaker 1: to make it quote unquote fit in with the merch.
Speaker 1: And just, I mean, this happens every time, Like it's
Speaker 1: just ridiculous. It's just it's just such a bummer that
Speaker 1: the this could have been such a monument I mean
Speaker 1: it is a monumental movie. The fact that it's it's
Speaker 1: features the first black Disney animated princess. The movie barely
Speaker 1: makes sense. The plot is either not much as happening,
Speaker 1: or what's happening is too convoluted, Like I want to
Speaker 1: like it so much more than I do. Well, it's
Speaker 1: just like it's a behind the scenes problem. They didn't
Speaker 1: hire the people who needed to be hired for this
Speaker 1: movie to be coherent or good. Exactly. No, it definitely
Speaker 1: like the one good thing is we all loved Tianna.
Speaker 1: We love Tianna. But other than that, other than that,
Speaker 1: yike yeike yaike um, there's a part of me that
Speaker 1: just like wants Tiana to get a redo. I'm like,
Speaker 1: can we can we just do something for her? Can
Speaker 1: we do something for Tianna? She didn't deserve to have
Speaker 1: to be in this movie, right, I know? Also worth
Speaker 1: mentioning the like queer coding of the villain Dr Facilier.
Speaker 1: It happens, and well there weren't enough tropes associated with
Speaker 1: that character already, so well, yeah, we talk a lot
Speaker 1: about this concept on various other Disney movies, so you know,
Speaker 1: check out those episodes for more, but it's definitely present here.
Speaker 1: I love the part where big Daddy le Buff shoves
Speaker 1: up Ben his daughter's mouth. No, you know, like Dad's
Speaker 1: do And that's oh, I meant to say that earlier.
Speaker 1: That's like another troupe on top of a troupe on
Speaker 1: top of a trope for Charlotte of like dumb woman
Speaker 1: obsessed with daddy that I'm like, listen, I'm smart and
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with my dad. We exist, We're out there.
Speaker 1: To me, the only really moment I could identify as
Speaker 1: the movie acknowledging race at all, And this isn't even
Speaker 1: an example of a time that it does it directly,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's implied. Where the white real
Speaker 1: estate agents tell Tianna when she gets out bid for
Speaker 1: the restaurant property, they say, a woman of your background,
Speaker 1: you're better off where you're at. And yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: only time that I noticed that this movie acknowledges like
Speaker 1: her race or her background at all. But it's like, again,
Speaker 1: just that one tiny moment. It's not explicit, so you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know exactly what they're implying. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: like you didn't you didn't even take step one. There
Speaker 1: were some and it's like, I mean, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: use too much time getting super into it. There's a
Speaker 1: writer named Serena McCoy. Gregory who wrote about this movie
Speaker 1: in depth and found some references to the racial politics
Speaker 1: of this specific area at the specific time. But they're
Speaker 1: so small that it's like no one would have known.
Speaker 1: I'll just read quick quote. Most of so it has
Speaker 1: to do with the masquerade ball and who's allowed to
Speaker 1: wear masks and who isn't. I guess was a law
Speaker 1: at this time. Quote. Most of the attendees are costumed
Speaker 1: to mask, with noted exceptions of Charlotte and Eli and
Speaker 1: the black attendees. The band performers in Tiana are not masked,
Speaker 1: reflecting local law that prohibited blocks from covering their faces.
Speaker 1: At the end of the scene, we realized that Dr
Speaker 1: Facilier has broken with custom and law hiding behind a
Speaker 1: white Janus faced mask. So apparently they referenced this very
Speaker 1: specific but it's like that also, I also am like
Speaker 1: that could have been an accident. Uh. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know the the any attempt to express I mean,
Speaker 1: Disney is never going to try to express realism. But
Speaker 1: if they're that committed to not expressing realism, why put
Speaker 1: it here? Like it's just yeah, really bizarre. I mean,
Speaker 1: I do want to wanna shout out to Rob Edwards,
Speaker 1: the black screenwriter of the three, the other two being
Speaker 1: um Ron Clements and John Musker, who are also the directors.
Speaker 1: So because there's like at least one black person involved
Speaker 1: in the production of this movie, even though it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like a lot of stuff got through. But he also,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize this wrote one of my what I
Speaker 1: think is a very underrated Disney movie, which is Treasure Planet.
Speaker 1: Oh you wrote Treasure Planet. I liked Treasure Planet. No
Speaker 1: one else like Treasure Planet. It was a problem. I've
Speaker 1: seen it. Oh it's okay. First of all, for someone
Speaker 1: who hates steampunk, I like all steam things. So it's
Speaker 1: like steampunk Treasure Island. And like Jim what's his name
Speaker 1: has like a buzz cut and bangs, remember the trailers,
Speaker 1: and he can fly. It's good. But anyways, shout out
Speaker 1: to Rob Edwards, um and I wish he could have
Speaker 1: like written this movie by himself instead of you know,
Speaker 1: I have a black woman rite this movie. I have
Speaker 1: a black woman direct this movie. That's I mean. And
Speaker 1: and it's still like women much less Black women are
Speaker 1: still like not given access to animation in particular. And
Speaker 1: it's just I read that Oprah in addition to being
Speaker 1: cast as the voice of the mother, was also brought
Speaker 1: on as like a technical consultant, but only after they'd
Speaker 1: already received criticism for the movie being racist, so they
Speaker 1: pulled the hail Oprah and which again is just like
Speaker 1: it's just so disingenuous of like, yeah, we'll hire a
Speaker 1: black woman on this story about a black woman, but
Speaker 1: only after you've been yelled at. It's like, wouldn't it
Speaker 1: just serve the production of whatever? Animation? There's not a
Speaker 1: lot of women just in general. Sure, Like it's it's
Speaker 1: very uh because yeah, I used to I used to work.
Speaker 1: I used to work in animation, like not in the
Speaker 1: drawing aspect. I used to work more in like dealing
Speaker 1: with the day to day logistics of like voiceover people.
Speaker 1: So it actually is funny. I've worked with severally actors
Speaker 1: in the movie that are very nice and very sweet.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you don't see you have like a few
Speaker 1: women who are like up at like the decision making level,
Speaker 1: but not so many, you know. So hopefully as I
Speaker 1: exited animation, there's like more people coming to the top,
Speaker 1: so hopefully they will continue. Yeah, let's hope. So, I
Speaker 1: mean it's still like the two women that I'm aware
Speaker 1: of that have directed Disney animated productions, they're both white women.
Speaker 1: Ones Jennifer Lee, who I think has gotten promoted pretty
Speaker 1: high up in Disney animation, which is good. She co
Speaker 1: directed Frozen because you gotta have a boy with you,
Speaker 1: And then Brenda Chapman, who directed Uh, well that got complicated,
Speaker 1: didn't it? Listen to our brave episode? Yeah, she did
Speaker 1: direct it, but she is again credited as a co
Speaker 1: director with a man. Because people get nervous when women
Speaker 1: have too much power of doing anything. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we gotta get someone name mark in here. I believe.
Speaker 1: Don't quote me on this. I believe though, that Pixar
Speaker 1: does have like one person of color. That's a director
Speaker 1: that did like a short film. Oh is it the
Speaker 1: one fun? What's it called? Uh? I think it had
Speaker 1: something to do with like food. Yes, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I think that's it. Does this movie pass the back
Speaker 1: tail test? Yes? Yes, um few times definitely. Between Tiana
Speaker 1: and her mom, Um, you doora talk about you know,
Speaker 1: opening up the restaurant and all that stung children, grandchildren,
Speaker 1: It barely passed. But then they that's followed by them
Speaker 1: talking about Tianna's dad, and then a hypothetical prince charming. Um,
Speaker 1: do any conversations between Charlotte and Tianna passed? Because I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of them are about men and princes.
Speaker 1: And I caught a few two line exchanges, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't pass by the margin you would want it to write.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, does her talking to Evangeline
Speaker 1: count Evangeline shimmers? Yes, so that is her that was
Speaker 1: in the script in Shimmers. In response, Um, I mean
Speaker 1: the women in this movie are are very much outnumbered
Speaker 1: by male characters. Um, which is again very And then
Speaker 1: Mama Odi doesn't I don't know if any of those
Speaker 1: I feel like most of those conversations are still about
Speaker 1: like it's like the love interest exactly right. Like I
Speaker 1: feel like almost everything Mama Odi says is the subtext
Speaker 1: of like head rolla We'll change your life or maybe
Speaker 1: the Tapasco sauce thing that that I mean maybe Again,
Speaker 1: it's like all the passes are quick. They're all like
Speaker 1: they're very very quick, and it's against like so not
Speaker 1: unusual for in a princess movie for the like female
Speaker 1: characters to be vastly outnumbered all the animals we meet
Speaker 1: are male identified animals. They're let's rate it on our
Speaker 1: nipple scale, um zero to five nipples based on its
Speaker 1: representation of women. UM. I know this is such an
Speaker 1: important movie to like young black girls and other the
Speaker 1: world in the world, but it really subscribes to a
Speaker 1: lot of weird tropes and stereotypes between uh, you know,
Speaker 1: weird racial stereotypes. This movie doesn't like fat people. This
Speaker 1: movie doesn't like poor people. This movie doesn't like any
Speaker 1: dreams or this movie really mishandles what the religion of
Speaker 1: voodoo is. You know, it's got a lot of problems,
Speaker 1: but it is important. Representative, as we always talk about,
Speaker 1: like representation and inclusion and progress in general, is a
Speaker 1: slow process that has to start somewhere, and usually the
Speaker 1: place that it starts is not necessarily very good or
Speaker 1: very nuanced, but it's a stepping stone for other more nuanced,
Speaker 1: more inclusive and progressive things to be made from there,
Speaker 1: usually when the first thing that's not very nuanced proves
Speaker 1: to be financially successful, which this movie was. But yes,
Speaker 1: we've had better representation, not necessarily of like black women
Speaker 1: royalty in much cinema, but the fact that this is
Speaker 1: like the first Black Disney Princess is not nothing. The
Speaker 1: fact that it was made almost exclusively by white men
Speaker 1: is not the choice that should have been made, as
Speaker 1: we've talked about. So there's all these factors. I don't
Speaker 1: know what nipple rating to give it. Is it like
Speaker 1: a two and a half is it's kind of right
Speaker 1: down the middle. I'm giving it. Uh uh, I'm between
Speaker 1: the one and half and it too. I think that,
Speaker 1: like the behind the scenes representation in this movie is
Speaker 1: so pissed poor and Tiana, Like Tiana is the wind,
Speaker 1: Trianna is the win. Tiana is everything that is good
Speaker 1: about this movie is Tianna in the first half hour,
Speaker 1: right and not Yeah, because she's a fucking frog. There's
Speaker 1: not enough. It's not enough. I'll give it. I'll give
Speaker 1: it one and a half nipples one for Tianna and
Speaker 1: a half because it was the first black But other
Speaker 1: than that, that's that's it everything. I'm like you, really,
Speaker 1: there's no other character with redeeming progressive anything. Okay, I'll
Speaker 1: follow your lead, Lexi into one and a half. One
Speaker 1: and a half. Yeah, cool, Well do better world. Well,
Speaker 1: these directors, these directors did direct Mahanna. You know a
Speaker 1: few years later, So not that that's who should have directed.
Speaker 1: Marianna is a more progressive text. The world is a
Speaker 1: confusing place. Um, Lexie, thank you so much for me,
Speaker 1: Thank you for having Where can we Where can we
Speaker 1: find you online? Um at smile Alexei on everything. So
Speaker 1: but Lexi has spelled l e x i E wonderful
Speaker 1: and then go see the best. Yes, yeah, thank you.
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