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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners.

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Speaker 2: Wherever you are in the world, it is so great

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Speaker 2: to have you here. Back for another episode as we,

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Speaker 2: of course break down the psychology of our twenties. Guys,

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Speaker 2: I'm nervous for today's episode. I really am, because I

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Speaker 2: think I am tackling my most controversial topic and my

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Speaker 2: most controversial episode yet, so much so that I actually

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Speaker 2: kind of went back and forth as to whether I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do this episode for a few months. Do

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Speaker 2: I talk about the male loneliness epidemic as a woman,

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Speaker 2: or do I just leave it? Do I just do

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Speaker 2: I give my opinion, do I dive into the research,

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Speaker 2: or do I let someone else kind of tackle that

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Speaker 2: dumpster fire. As of about a week ago, I had

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Speaker 2: kind of decided that this topic was one that I

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to discuss on the podcast. But then I

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Speaker 2: had a conversation with my friend Emily. We were in

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Speaker 2: the car and we were discussing this for I would

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Speaker 2: say literally over an hour, all the different angles, the

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Speaker 2: male friendship angle, the misogyny angle, the co ed school angle,

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Speaker 2: the historical angle, and just from a purely pure fascination

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Speaker 2: point of view, like I could not resist doing this topic.

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Speaker 2: I feel like my favorite episodes are the ones that

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Speaker 2: are making a personal mark in my own life. This

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Speaker 2: is one of those things. So today we're gonna do it.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about the male loneliness epidemic, what it is,

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Speaker 2: the ways it is very much valid, and also what

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Speaker 2: it is not. Of course, whilst we do that, we're

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Speaker 2: going to break it down through the lens of psychology,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to use academic research, peer reviewed studies

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Speaker 2: as well as some anecdotal evidence as well to really

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Speaker 2: understand what is going on. I feel like this phenomena

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Speaker 2: is talked about so much online at the moment, but

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Speaker 2: often in a very opinionated manner, in a way that

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Speaker 2: can also quickly become very divisive. And trust me, I

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Speaker 2: myself have strong opinions about this, but I also think

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Speaker 2: we need a clearer kind of bird's eye view of

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Speaker 2: what's really going on societally I will also say, if

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Speaker 2: you equally have a strong opinion about this as I do,

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Speaker 2: please come into this episode with an open mind. Just

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Speaker 2: put your viewpoint aside for a second, and if you

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Speaker 2: come out still firmly believing what you initially believed, share

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Speaker 2: it below in a kind constructive way.

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Speaker 1: Below.

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Speaker 2: This episode will probably not be the last time that

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Speaker 2: I talk about this, so I'm actually very happy to

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Speaker 2: have my mind changed to hear different perspectives, especially from

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Speaker 2: my male listeners. But without further ado, let's get into

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Speaker 2: the psychology of the male loneliness epidemic. So let me

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Speaker 2: start off by giving a bit of an overview of

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Speaker 2: what the male loneliness epidemic actually is and more importantly,

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Speaker 2: how it differs from the general loneliness epidemic that is

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Speaker 2: afflicting many, if not all people. Firstly, loneliness is not

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Speaker 2: something that we can quickly dismiss in any form. Loneliness

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Speaker 2: is brutal. Not feeling supported or seen or loved can

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Speaker 2: really strip a human being of their reason for being

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Speaker 2: and a sense of meaning in the world, a sense

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Speaker 2: of a sense that they matter, which we all need

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day. And this the sense

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Speaker 2: that we don't matter. The sense that we are not

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Speaker 2: supported is becoming more common than ever, to the point

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Speaker 2: that loneliness has been declared an international health emergency. There

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Speaker 2: have been serious health consequences linked back to the prolonged

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Speaker 2: experience of loneliness. There is one very infamous study that

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Speaker 2: concluded that loneliness may be as bad and as dangerous

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Speaker 2: for you as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.

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Speaker 2: I think we often think about loneliness as something that

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Speaker 2: creeps up the older weekend. But the worrying thing about

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Speaker 2: the current state of loneliness is that it's impacting young

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Speaker 2: people more than older generations, with around forty seven percent

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Speaker 2: of people under the age of thirty five saying they

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Speaker 2: haven't made a new friend in the past twelve months

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Speaker 2: and thirty percent of them saying that they wouldn't know

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Speaker 2: how to. And since we typically thought that this younger

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Speaker 2: generation was perhaps more immune to it than older generations,

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Speaker 2: this is why, and this is what has people very,

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Speaker 2: very worried. So I talked about this in my book

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Speaker 2: in my chapter on loneliness. It's actually my favorite chapter

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Speaker 2: in my book. But the biggest factors contributing to this

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Speaker 2: are things like technology. A study from Harvard actually found

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Speaker 2: that seventy three percent of those surveyed felt that technology,

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Speaker 2: specifically social media, was contributing to a state of loneliness

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Speaker 2: for them. Specifically, it is promoting something that we call

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Speaker 2: social snacking, where because of social media and its successibility,

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Speaker 2: we get these kind of like bite sized interactions with people,

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Speaker 2: none of which are truly nourishing, but they like kind

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Speaker 2: of semi sustain us until we get to a point

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Speaker 2: where we realize that we are very nutrient deficient. We

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Speaker 2: are very deficient in terms of social connectedness and a

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Speaker 2: real sense of belonging. Another factor is actually being overworked,

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Speaker 2: being too busy, too tired, too high functioning to socialize.

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Speaker 2: People have more to do and a greater sense of

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Speaker 2: responsibility than ever. An individualistic society was something else that

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Speaker 2: was named by about fifty eight percent of people in

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Speaker 2: this same survey. Basically they said people are becoming more selfish,

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Speaker 2: they're becoming more self centered, they don't want to do

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Speaker 2: stuff for others, they don't want to be around others,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of links to the final and one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest factors that people cited, which was a

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Speaker 2: lack of community spaces, a lack of community environments, a

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Speaker 2: lack of community rituals that previous generations have had, things

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Speaker 2: like church, things like dancers, like fairs, like local shops

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Speaker 2: that you know, everyone went to, places and events where

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Speaker 2: people could connect, and the time to connect. All of

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Speaker 2: these things, plus many other factors that we are most

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Speaker 2: certainly going to get to, they are all contributing to

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Speaker 2: the general loneliness epidemic that I think each and every

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Speaker 2: one of us has felt. And it is very indicative

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Speaker 2: of how disconnected we are and how isolated so many

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Speaker 2: people feel. And this, like this is a serious problem,

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Speaker 2: This is a problem that very much claims lives. So

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Speaker 2: how exactly does the male loneliness epidemic that people keep

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Speaker 2: talking about, how does that differ from what it seems

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Speaker 2: everyone else is experiencing. Well, the claim of the male

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Speaker 2: loneliness epidemic is that men, specifically young men, are actually

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Speaker 2: more lonely than any other group, and that the reason

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Speaker 2: this is is because they are falling behind socially, which

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Speaker 2: I agree with, but specifically when it comes to dating.

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Speaker 2: The thing is attention on the male loneliness epidemic, to

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Speaker 2: begin with, was actually a really positive thing. It was

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Speaker 2: seeking to make men more aware of the fact that

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Speaker 2: they could reach out, that they would be welcomed, and

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Speaker 2: that they would be heard. It was trying to encourage

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Speaker 2: men to become more vulnerable by seeing that not being

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Speaker 2: vulnerable was a health issue. It was asking us to

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Speaker 2: rethink why men were socially conditioned to seek less support,

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Speaker 2: to see their mates less, to have less deep relationships,

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Speaker 2: all very important questions to raise. Nowadays, though, it has

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Speaker 2: transformed into something that is totally different from that conversation,

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Speaker 2: and honestly, what it has transformed into from what it

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Speaker 2: was initially intended to be means that the way the

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Speaker 2: male loneliness epidemic is talked about is a huge disappointment

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Speaker 2: for straight men in particular. The claim is that because

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Speaker 2: they are having less sex, because they are not dating

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Speaker 2: as much, because they aren't getting married, because they're getting rejected,

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Speaker 2: they are experiencing greater rates of loneliness as a result.

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Speaker 2: And the discussions around why this is the case is

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Speaker 2: because women, well, women won't give them a chance anymore,

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Speaker 2: women won't date them. Rejection is to blame. That is

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Speaker 2: what is causing this male loneliness epidemic. Separate from the

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Speaker 2: society or loneliness epidemic that we know we are experiencing.

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Speaker 2: And here is the thing, I really don't think that

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Speaker 2: this framing of male loneliness is correct. First off, and

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Speaker 2: you know what, people might get frustrated at me for

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Speaker 2: bringing this up, but I can only speak facts. The

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Speaker 2: rates of male loneliness are no greater or bigger than

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Speaker 2: the loneliness impacting every other group on Earth. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to break down exactly the research that proves this. And secondly,

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Speaker 2: I think loneliness is actually not the issue here. It

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Speaker 2: is a case whereby certain group to men are learning

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Speaker 2: that their actions, their attitudes, their behaviors have consequences and

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Speaker 2: not wanting to own up to that, so blaming their

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Speaker 2: unfavorable situation on someone else, blaming it on the women

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Speaker 2: who don't want to date them, who won't sleep with them,

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Speaker 2: rather than understanding that, amongst many other factors, they also

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Speaker 2: have a personal responsibility to be the kind of person

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Speaker 2: who others want to be around, who others want to

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Speaker 2: have a relationship with, who others feel respected by. The

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Speaker 2: male loneliness epidemic as it is currently painted right now,

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Speaker 2: I actually, I actually think is an accountability epidemic and

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Speaker 2: let me explain why I believe this in the most

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Speaker 2: evidence based, nicest way possible, Because I don't think anyone

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Speaker 2: deserves to be isolated. I don't think anyone deserves to

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Speaker 2: feel lonely. But I equally think that the attention the

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Speaker 2: male loneliness epidemic is getting actually takes away from really

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Speaker 2: addressing loneliness for men, for women, for any gender at

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Speaker 2: its root cause. So firstly, let's return to that first

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Speaker 2: kind of statement I made, which is that men are

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Speaker 2: actually not the loneliest gender. So there is evidence that

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Speaker 2: if we were to make it a competition, as people

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Speaker 2: who like to claim a male loneliness epidemic seem to

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Speaker 2: do by prefacing it with male, if we were to

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Speaker 2: make it a competition, women are actually experiencing loneliness at

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Speaker 2: a greater level than men. Here's some examples of the

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Speaker 2: evidence that has been gathered around this. One such example

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Speaker 2: is from Ailing Graham. She's an associate professor of social

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Speaker 2: sciences at Northwestern University. She analyzed nine longer tuneral studies

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Speaker 2: of loneliness and found that women are actually the ones

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Speaker 2: that report being lonelier than men. Now, self reporting is

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Speaker 2: actually one of the only ways that we can analyze lonely.

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Speaker 2: Loneliness is one of those weird, weird emotions where it's

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Speaker 2: actually very hard to objectively analyze. It is a completely

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Speaker 2: subjective feeling. You could have too friends and feel like

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Speaker 2: the most supported person in the world, or you could

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Speaker 2: have a million friends and feel like the loneliness loneliest

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Speaker 2: person in the world. So it has to basically be

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Speaker 2: measured through self reporting. And across these nine studies she

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Speaker 2: looked at, there were more than one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: eight thousand participants from over twenty countries between the ages

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Speaker 2: of thirteen to one hundred and three, so not a

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Speaker 2: small sample size, and women consistently were the lonely a gender.

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Speaker 2: Another twenty twenty four study looked at gender differences in

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Speaker 2: loneliness over a fifteen year time period, a long childrenal study,

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Speaker 2: again women were lonelier. And then a new Pew Research

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Speaker 2: Center survey from January this year looked at over six

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Speaker 2: thousand adults in the US and it found that, once

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Speaker 2: again compared with women, men did not report being any

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Speaker 2: more lonely than their counterparts. So that's three different sources,

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Speaker 2: three different sources that say, actually, if we were going

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Speaker 2: to make it a competition. Why is the word male

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Speaker 2: in front of this? And I could honestly tell you

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Speaker 2: countless others that say the same thing. So why aren't

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Speaker 2: we calling it a female loneliness epidemic? You know what?

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say it here. I actually don't think

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Speaker 2: we need to call it male or female. The point

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to make is that this shouldn't be a competition.

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Speaker 2: It actually doesn't matter. Prevalence to me, doesn't matter. It

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Speaker 2: is a societal issue. What I bring issue to is

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Speaker 2: the fact that we are trying to make it a competition,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that like this specific definition of loneliness

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Speaker 2: for men is the only one that seems to get

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Speaker 2: the attention. This kind of brings me to explaining why

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Speaker 2: this specific depiction of loneliness as a male issue, as

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Speaker 2: a young male issue, is perhaps not correct. I want

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Speaker 2: to say, if you're a man and you're listening to

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Speaker 2: this episode and you feel lonely, I totally feel your pain.

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Speaker 2: As a human being, socializelation is super hard. This is

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Speaker 2: not to invalidate your experiences. I just want to contextualize

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Speaker 2: this and say again that this is not a gendered

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Speaker 2: issue and it shouldn't be made to be. Let's really

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Speaker 2: quickly revisit what many people claim to be the causes

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Speaker 2: of the male lowniness epidemic these days. Not to sound like,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a broken record, but I just want

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Speaker 2: to make it super clear. The current explanation that I

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Speaker 2: am addressing is that men don't have girlfriends, men don't

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Speaker 2: have sex, women don't want to date men, and therefore

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Speaker 2: men don't have that same level of company that they

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Speaker 2: thought they would expect. This is what a lot of

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Speaker 2: people in the red pill male rights space is really

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Speaker 2: saying is causing this issue. Now, if people were to

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Speaker 2: focus on the fact that men aren't allowed to be

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Speaker 2: as vulnerable as women and that's what's causing the issue,

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Speaker 2: or if people wanted to focus on the fact that

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Speaker 2: men lack healthy male role models, or they wanted to

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Speaker 2: bring up the fact that male mental health, male eating disorders,

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Speaker 2: male substance abuse issues are on the rise and that's

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Speaker 2: the reason for loneliness, I would have absolutely no issue

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Speaker 2: in agreeing and completely supporting that statement. I would agree

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Speaker 2: with you entirely. This is a real problem. It's heartbreaking,

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Speaker 2: but that is not the discussion that we're having I

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Speaker 2: would totally agree with you. The society has failed many

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Speaker 2: men in the same ways and for the same reasons

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Speaker 2: that it has failed women and people of all genders,

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Speaker 2: by making us believe we have to fit into a pigeonhole,

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Speaker 2: by making men believe that they have to be strong

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Speaker 2: and tough and they can't whine and they have to

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Speaker 2: be brave. The patriarchy has failed men in this respect,

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Speaker 2: just as it has failed women in other respects in many,

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Speaker 2: many other ways as well. But that's not the focus.

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Speaker 2: The focus is on what a certain group of men

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Speaker 2: feel they should be entitled to which they are not,

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Speaker 2: which is women's bodies, women's autonomy, women's time, women's energy,

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Speaker 2: women's lives. I know this is of course a psychology podcast,

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Speaker 2: but let's do a bit of a history lesson here.

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Speaker 2: For a long, long time, women depended on men for

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Speaker 2: their existence, or maybe I should say, like for their

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Speaker 2: comfortable existence beyond just surviving. Mayor I remind you, like

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Speaker 2: couldn't get a credit card or a line of credit

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Speaker 2: until like nineteen eighty four in Australia. That means like

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Speaker 2: my grandmother, my mother, two people who are still very

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Speaker 2: much alive and kicking they weren't able to borrow money.

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Speaker 2: They had their wallets, and there was something in their wallet.

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Speaker 2: There's something in my wallet that they didn't have in

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Speaker 2: their wallet, like access to financial freedom. There was also

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Speaker 2: the case that, you know, women couldn't get a job

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Speaker 2: without their husband or father's permission. They were also socially

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Speaker 2: outcast if they weren't married at a certain age. Every

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Speaker 2: single part of their survival came down to marriage and

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Speaker 2: came down to partnership with the men. Even the most disrespectful,

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Speaker 2: horrible man could find someone who wanted to be with

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Speaker 2: him because he was her lifeline. He was her only

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Speaker 2: ticket in It's very simple economics around demand and supply. Right,

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Speaker 2: if the only way a woman can access a certain

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Speaker 2: type of lifestyle is to grab a man and hope

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Speaker 2: that he sticks or hope that he continues to love her,

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Speaker 2: the supply is going to keep meeting that demand, like

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Speaker 2: the demand is going to mean that more men are

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Speaker 2: being chosen, even if they perhaps probably didn't deserve to be.

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Speaker 2: This is known in psychology. It's known in sociology as

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Speaker 2: the patriarchal bargain, basically referring to the strategies and compromises

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Speaker 2: women needed to make for a greater level of security

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Speaker 2: and autonomy whilst still being under the control of men. Now,

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Speaker 2: as we know, women have worn themselves so many freedoms

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Speaker 2: over the years, and so our reliance on men has diminished,

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Speaker 2: and so that means that bargain is no longer in

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Speaker 2: men's favor. Now. If we don't need a man out

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Speaker 2: of necessity, we now get picky, as we should be,

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Speaker 2: as we totally should be. If you're going to choose

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Speaker 2: a live partner, you want someone who will make your

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Speaker 2: life better, especially when you've already achieved a lot yourself.

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Speaker 2: I look at my single friends and I'm like, they

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Speaker 2: have money, they have a life, they love, They're training

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Speaker 2: for marathons, they own their own homes, they volunteer, they

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Speaker 2: are well respected in their community. They are beautiful, they

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Speaker 2: are hot. And the kind of guy who doesn't even

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Speaker 2: respect you, or who thinks of you as only something

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Speaker 2: that could make him less lonely, or is only interested

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Speaker 2: in sex, he's just not going to cut it, like

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Speaker 2: the bar is too high for him. If my life

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Speaker 2: as a single woman is so amazing, why would I

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Speaker 2: want to be with someone who doesn't respect me? Why

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Speaker 2: would I want to be with someone who sees getting

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Speaker 2: your girlfriend or getting a wife, or getting a part

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Speaker 2: as something to tick off their to do list, and

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Speaker 2: I just happen to be there. It sounds harsh, but

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Speaker 2: I am sure there are certain men who feel the

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Speaker 2: same way about women. I saw this comment on Reddit

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Speaker 2: actually that there are certain men who will be like,

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Speaker 2: you know, girls only want a guy because of money.

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Speaker 2: Girls are so shallow, Girls like they just reject me,

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Speaker 2: you know, they their standards are too high. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, someone will say to them like, oh what

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Speaker 2: about Brenda. You know Brenda, she seems to really care

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Speaker 2: about you, and she's always there for you and she's amazing.

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Speaker 2: And then the guy will be like, well, she's too fat. No,

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Speaker 2: not her again. It's such a restricted approach to connection

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Speaker 2: that actually has deep roots in patriarchy, and yet some

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Speaker 2: people just don't want to acknowledge that and want to

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Speaker 2: make it a very singular, one dimensional issue. Women won't

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Speaker 2: date me, That's why I'm lonely. I actually read this

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Speaker 2: fascinating article about voluntary celibacy being on the rise amongst

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Speaker 2: straight women. A Psychology Today article I found said that

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Speaker 2: one in six women a voluntarily celibate, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of them say they've never been happier than ever. We've

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Speaker 2: gotten to a point where our sexuality doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be a bargaining tool anymore. We can just exist as

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Speaker 2: a fully fulfilled solo woman and hopefully have a lot

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Speaker 2: of the freedoms that you know, our ancestors didn't have.

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Speaker 2: As more and more women, you know, feel that way,

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Speaker 2: certain types of men are going to become more and

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Speaker 2: more isolated, not because of a woman's discernment, but because

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Speaker 2: of their inability to adapt and grow and take personal responsibility. Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to take a short break here, but when

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Speaker 2: we return, let's dive into this even deeper as well

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Speaker 2: as some of the potential solutions stay with us. So

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Speaker 2: I think in the situation I was just describing the

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Speaker 2: explanation for male loneliness being that men aren't getting laid.

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Speaker 2: It's not alone in this issue. It's an entitlement issue.

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Speaker 2: I also think that it's rather sad that romantic intimacy

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Speaker 2: is one of the only forms of social connection and

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Speaker 2: contact that men are supposed to find fulfilling, and so

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Speaker 2: they prioritize seeking out someone they desire and who they

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Speaker 2: can win over, rather than focusing on healthy male friendship,

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Speaker 2: rather than focusing on being friends with women, on being

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Speaker 2: led by curiosity rather than desire. So when I was

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Speaker 2: researching this episode, I actually went deep diving into some

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Speaker 2: of the red pill male rights groups online and here

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Speaker 2: is a Reddit post that I came across that I

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Speaker 2: think captures this perfectly. This man, he was ranting about

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Speaker 2: why women don't like him, and this is the thing

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Speaker 2: he said that really caught my attention, and I think

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Speaker 2: gets to the crux of this issue. He said, I

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Speaker 2: talk to them with the intention of getting to know

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Speaker 2: them and be friendly, and then I'll show romantic interest,

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Speaker 2: and as soon as I do, I'm rejected. I have

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Speaker 2: a few female friends, but they treat me like a

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Speaker 2: little brother, and it's annoying that female friends won't recognize

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Speaker 2: me as a man just because they aren't sexually attracted

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Speaker 2: to me. This, to me, seems to be a huge

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Speaker 2: part of this issue. A certain type of individual like

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Speaker 2: this only being friendly to women so that he can

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Speaker 2: make a move on them, having female friends, but then

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Speaker 2: getting mad because they're not sexually attracted to him. It

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Speaker 2: just shows that somewhere in the back of his mind

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Speaker 2: he's always looking to date them, and he never sees

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Speaker 2: them as his equal in friendship, And so I feel

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Speaker 2: bad for this kind of person, Like you're completely cut

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Speaker 2: out from a whole other side of society, a whole

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Speaker 2: other group of people who are totally going to be

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Speaker 2: there for you platonic. But because you don't want something

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Speaker 2: platonic you have to make it romantic, you don't get

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Speaker 2: access to that. There is this somewhat over reliance I

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Speaker 2: think on female romantic partners to fulfill a man's every

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Speaker 2: social and emotional need, when as a human being you

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00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: need a network that is more broad than that. A

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Speaker 2: woman cannot be your only solution, but also you should

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Speaker 2: be able to provide that support back to your partner,

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Speaker 2: like they aren't just something to have so that you

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Speaker 2: feel less lonely. If you only want a girlfriend to

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Speaker 2: feel less lonely, or for unconditional love, get a dog.

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Speaker 2: Get a dog. Trust me, the pounds are full. You

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Speaker 2: will find what you are looking for there. Like women

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Speaker 2: are more complex than just something that you want to date.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing. I have such amazing male friends

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Speaker 2: who I genuinely love and admire, and I'm thinking about

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00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: them in my mind right now, and I'm just like, wow,

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00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 2: this are such great examples of masculinity because they for

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Speaker 2: many reasons, but because they see women as their equals,

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Speaker 2: sometimes even as they're superiors. They see women as people

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Speaker 2: they admire, that they want to be like and that

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Speaker 2: they don't just want to sleep with. And guess what

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00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 2: separate to that when they do pursue someone, they get dates,

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Speaker 2: they have partners who genuinely fulfill them. They're engaged, they're married.

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Speaker 2: They're not lonely because they have an attitude that makes

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Speaker 2: connecting with them possible because they are nice people. And again,

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Speaker 2: it's not just like that a man is he's lonely

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00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: because he's awful. There are a lot of men who

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00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: are lonely and the fact they can't find love is

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00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: a part of that, the same way that there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of women or non binary people who are

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Speaker 2: lonely because they really want a life partner but they aren't,

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Speaker 2: then blaming the person or people not picking them for

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00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: their entire circumstances and doing nothing to change it. Humans

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00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: have a natural desire for intimacy. I'm not saying that

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Speaker 2: you need to be okay with never finding love and

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Speaker 2: to get over it, and otherwise you deserve to be lonely. No,

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Speaker 2: it's in your DNA to want someone to love and

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Speaker 2: to love you. It's in our nature to have someone

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Speaker 2: and have a group of people who care about us.

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Speaker 2: But you're also not entitled to it from an individual

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Speaker 2: just because historically it was easier to come by for

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Speaker 2: someone in your circumstances. And you can't then turn around

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Speaker 2: and make it sound like not getting a date is

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Speaker 2: an epidemic and everyone's problem, because let's be real, there

419
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Speaker 2: are a ton of lonely single women out there who

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Speaker 2: have never dated someone, who have been rejected countless times,

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Speaker 2: and I can promise you they are not on four

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Speaker 2: Chan boards spewing violence and hate and saying that all

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Speaker 2: men are the problem. So what have the consequences of

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Speaker 2: the male loneliness epidemic been? And let me say again,

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Speaker 2: not the gen loneliness epidemic that includes men, but the

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00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: specifically marketed loneliness epidemic of men not getting dates. What

427
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: is the harm of this bin I think a big

428
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 2: consequence of the publicity this is getting is that certain

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00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: men are being pushed deeper and deeper into the manisphere,

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Speaker 2: whereby the loudest voices and people. The people with the

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00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: biggest platforms are fellow men who are jacked and they're

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Speaker 2: really handsome, and they claim to be rich, and they're

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Speaker 2: telling you that you're not the problem. They're painting women

434
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: as villains, either explicitly or implicitly, and that is not

435
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: the case. I genuinely feel like a deep level of

436
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 2: concern and worry for young men who end up in

437
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 2: these spaces, because I know what's waiting for them is

438
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: more loneliness. It becomes harder and harder to find someone,

439
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: harder to connect with others meaningfully, harder to realize that

440
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: this person does not have your best interests at heart.

441
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: By spewing this narrative to you, the further you're undoctrinated.

442
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: It also will ironically, logically further kill your chances of

443
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: finding love, because guess what, most women don't want to

444
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: be with someone who inherently blames her for his deep issues.

445
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: According to the United Nations Convoy on Women, the Manner sphere,

446
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: as we call it, is actually making misogyny more mainstream.

447
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: It's making it a more widely held belief system. And

448
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: here's the kicker. Individuals who feel a sense of social

449
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 2: isolation are more likely to fall victim to it. If

450
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 2: you want an even scarier statistic that doesn't scare you enough,

451
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: about two thirds of young men regularly engage or expose

452
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: to these kinds of influences online. An engagement with these

453
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: kinds of individuals is linked to greater levels of digital

454
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 2: abuse towards women. Again, these male influencers are great at

455
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 2: their jobs. Let's just call it as it is. They

456
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: are great at influencing, and they are also great at

457
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: providing an echo chamber without actually helping these men and

458
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: without actually improving their chances of being able to positively

459
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: engage with these people. I would be more on board

460
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: with these kind of male influencers if they actually talked

461
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: about mental health, if they actually said, hey, you're lonely,

462
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,239
Speaker 2: let's create like a volunteer group. If they actually were like,

463
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: let's actually encourage you to set a goal for yourself,

464
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: and didn't always bring it back to so that you

465
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: can be more like a man and you can get women.

466
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: It's just an authentic and this is harmful for everyone.

467
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: It's harmful for men who are looking for a lifeline

468
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: and who could really benefit from some real like some

469
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: real mental health support and positive male role models. They

470
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: just end up getting more isolated and lonely. It's also

471
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: harmful for women. It's harmful for women who end up

472
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: being victims of this. Women are the villain idea, this

473
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: women of the villain rhetoric that further allows people to

474
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: dehumanize them. And I can say this right now, this

475
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: type of behavior, this pipeline from lonely man into digital

476
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: abuse against women. It's happened to me like I've seen

477
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: this firsthand. Out of video go viral last year, a

478
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: really innocent video about how I want to date a

479
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: man who is self aware. The top three comments on

480
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: that video were three separate men calling me fat, calling

481
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: me ugly, calling me stupid, calling me a slot, saying

482
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: they would never date me, all because I said I

483
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: would like a man who has been to therapy. Bear

484
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: in mind, I'm going to brag. I'm gonna brag for

485
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: a bit. I have a fantastic boyfriend. He's six ft five,

486
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: he's a lawyer, he loves his mother, he has wonderful

487
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: male friends who I actually talk to for this episode.

488
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: And yet the biggest insult they could think of when

489
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: they didn't agree with me was that they wouldn't date

490
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: me and that I was ugly according to them, And

491
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: then they wonder why they're lonely, and they wonder why

492
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: women don't want to date them, as if it is

493
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: some big mystery. And yet I still have sympathy for them,

494
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: because I know, like, I saw these comments and I

495
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: was like, oh God, I want to argue with you,

496
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: I want to get mad at you, and I just

497
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: look at them, I'm like, you are just the victim

498
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 2: of something so much bigger than you that you are

499
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: not even aware of. And I'm so sorry. So let's

500
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: talk a bit further about the consequences of this, not

501
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: for men, but for women. Let's go further into the

502
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: trenches of how women are bearing the brunt of this.

503
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: The biggest thing, one of the biggest consequences of this

504
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: is that actually women are facing an increased sense of

505
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: responsibility for men's mental health and for men's needs. Yet again,

506
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: yet again, it becomes a woman's problem. This happens in relationships.

507
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: It happens in friendships, it happens in szibling relationships. It

508
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 2: happens with housemates, it happens with co workers. To quote

509
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: the writer, Romicdermott. This gap in emotional caregiving in relationships

510
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: between men and women leaves men even more unhappy because

511
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: they don't develop individual emotional regulation skills, and it yet

512
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: again leaves women with more work giving more emotional care

513
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: than they receive, which then in turn breeds resentments and

514
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: makes relationships fail. Feminist scholars have often labeled this emotional labor,

515
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: but the researcher Ellie Anderson She's recently identified a more

516
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: nuanced definition for this, called hermanutic labor. Hermautic labor is

517
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: the demanding, often unrecognized tasks that women face of interpreting, articulating,

518
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: deciphering the feelings and intentions of others, and navigating the

519
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: resulting into personal tensions. Let me get this completely straight.

520
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: Men and women. Neither of them are naturally better at this.

521
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: Women have just been conditioned to be better at it,

522
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: and they have been conditioned to be better at it

523
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: because they have often been again painted as the caretakers

524
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: of others around them, including men, and that mental low

525
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: takes its toll, and again, it hurts both people. It

526
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: hurts all genders. It hurts women because suddenly they're responsible

527
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: for another human's emotions and other adults emotions, and they're

528
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: now bearing the brunt of, perhaps like loan of an

529
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: entire gender's loneliness, which they don't deserve to. And it

530
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: hurts men because they should be better equipped with the

531
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: emotional skills that they need to decipher their own emotions.

532
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: But because again we have taught women that that's their job,

533
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: we've also taught men that they don't need to learn

534
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: that skill, which is ridiculous. Everyone needs to learn that skill.

535
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: Let's also talk about violence against women. Just a bit

536
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: of a trigger warning that obviously this discussion might be

537
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: a little bit heavy for some people, but we just

538
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: can't not talk about it. Obviously. I'm honestly I should

539
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: have talked about it earlier. But violence against women is

540
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: my biggest point to make in this whole thing. I

541
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: will say again, I asked some of my male friends

542
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: their thoughts on the male loneliness epidemic because I just

543
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: wanted to know their perspectives as men. You know, I'm

544
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: a woman. I probably could never understand. I can never

545
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: understand what they're experiencing. But I have to quote one

546
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: of my friends. Shout out to Alex who messaged me

547
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: this When I asked, I was like, what do you

548
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: think about the male loneliness epidemic? He said, Let's be clear,

549
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: as much as loneliness is an issue for men, it

550
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: will never compare to the epidemic of violence against women.

551
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 2: Violence against women is on the rise, and it is

552
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: very clearly killing women. It is a clear aid to

553
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: b violence against women kills women. And it's not a

554
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: coincidence that as it's increased, so is the prevalence of

555
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: these mannosphere circles. So is the prevalence of terms like

556
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: male loneliness epidemic. Why is it that the male loneliness

557
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: epidemic similarly always seems to be trending, but the names

558
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: of women who lost their lives to domestic violence, to

559
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: intimate partner violence, to random male violence are not. And

560
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: here's the thing. I really think that the more men

561
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: are pushed into the space of thinking that the reason

562
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: they're lonely is because women don't respect them or won't

563
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: date them, the more we will see the numbers go up,

564
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: more violence will increase. It's very basic social psychology. Right.

565
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: When men experience loneliness, rejections, social disconnection, there's a strong

566
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: temptation encouraged by the manosphere circles to blame women as

567
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: the cause of their suffering. This has a word. It's

568
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: called scapegoating. Rather than confronting actual structural issues like gendered expectations,

569
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,959
Speaker 2: economic shifts, limited male socialization, the responsibility is displaced onto women.

570
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: The psychological payoff is that it gives them a clear enemy.

571
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: It's a hold accountable, even if the actual causes are

572
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 2: much broader and more complex. Scapegoating it doesn't only reduce

573
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: feelings of helplessness, it also fuels hostility towards the targeted group,

574
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: which in this case translates into violence. Social identity theory

575
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: will also tell you and tell us that people derive

576
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: self worth from belonging to a group. So when men

577
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 2: perceive that they are excluded by women from dating or

578
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: from socializing, they may strengthen identification with an in group

579
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: of other disaffected men. Women then become the outgroup against

580
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: which all their grievances are projected. Once that division is drawn,

581
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: it's very easy for stereotypes to be amplified. Women are shallow,

582
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: women are manipulative, women are rejecting. Women only want me

583
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 2: for my money, whilst the men in the in group

584
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: are encouraged to see themselves as misunderstood victims. That us

585
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: versus them dynamic. That is just like the most fertile ground,

586
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: there is the hostility. Again, no one benefits from this,

587
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: and this is why let's scrap male loneliness epidemic. Let's

588
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: scrap female loneliness epidemic. Let's talk about this not as

589
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: a gendered issue but through a lens where this is

590
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: a collective problem that we need to address. We're going

591
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: to take a short break here, but when we return,

592
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 2: I want to talk about that specifically. What are some

593
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: of the solutions. Welcome back. Let's talk about some nuanced, healthy,

594
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 2: proactive ways to counteract loneliness so that we can really

595
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: get to the root cause of this issue before it

596
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: is allowed to be further distorted and divided and twisted.

597
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 2: Number one, if we're going to approach the loneliness epidemic,

598
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: we need to recognize it's going to sound counterintuitive, but

599
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: we need to recognize that being lonely is actually something

600
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 2: that we are all going to go through. It is universal,

601
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: It is difficult, but it is not someone else's fault

602
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: or responsibility. It is something that every single person is

603
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: going to experience. At some stage, again, I was talking

604
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: to my boyfriend about this, about the male loneliness epidemic,

605
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: and he asked me, do you think the reason people

606
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: are so worried about this is because they see loneliness

607
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: as like a curse rather than just as a human experience.

608
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: And I was like, WHOA, wow, I totally I have

609
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: to agree with you there. I think we have this

610
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 2: tendency to villainize loneliness, and obviously prolonged exposure to loneliness

611
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: is super harmful, but it is also a sign that

612
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: something is missing. To me, loneliness is like hunger, It

613
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: is like thirst, It is like tiredness. It is a

614
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: sign that you have a very basic social need or

615
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: a very basic human need that is not being met.

616
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: And if you were thirsty, if you were hungry, if

617
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: you were tired, You're not just going to sit there

618
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 2: and be like, well, I'm really really hungry and I'm

619
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: really really tired, and not then try and sleep, not,

620
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: then try and find something to eat, not then try

621
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: and find something to drink. Obviously, it's a lot more

622
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: complex than that, and I'll talk about some of the

623
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: strategies we can use to fulfill that loneliness whole. But

624
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: we need to treat it as a sign that something

625
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: is missing. And that's not a singular thing that's missing.

626
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: It's not a boyfriend, it's not a girlfriend. It is

627
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: a larger inadequacy or to fish and see in terms

628
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 2: of support. That is really what's happening here. And that

629
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: brings me to the second thing we need to address,

630
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: which is the real structural causes of loneliness beyond a

631
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: micro individual level. Blaming one person, even blaming a group

632
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: of people like it's never going to get you anywhere.

633
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: But if we want something or someone to blame, as

634
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: we often do, let's turn our direction to a common enemy.

635
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: How society has been set up by people long long

636
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: gone in a terrible way for which we are now

637
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: facing the consequences. Mainly, the common enemy is the patriarchy,

638
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: which hurts both men and women. It's division between genders.

639
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 2: It's stigma about mental health, it's stigma around vulnerability. It's

640
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: society's obsession with productivity so that none of us have

641
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: time or energy to connect with others anymore. It's the

642
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: loss of community through the commercialization of previously accessible spaces.

643
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: It's the fact that we don't have livable or affordable

644
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: cities where people can and actually see each other and

645
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: hang out and meet other people. Incidentally, anything else is

646
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: It's quite frankly, it's a red herring. It's distracting us

647
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: from the main issue. It's distracting us from the serious

648
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: factors that are at play. Again, I went looking into

649
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: some of those bread Peel Manisphere group chats and Reddit pages,

650
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: and you know what really disappointed me was how easily

651
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: distracted they are from what is really causing their loneliness,

652
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: or because of women rejected them, or or because of

653
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: women was involved. They will get so close to the

654
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 2: truth and then they will fall short. This is an

655
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: exact comment on a post titled a men's loneliness epidemic

656
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 2: is real and why we shouldn't say otherwise in a

657
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: Reddit group called Men's Rights quote. I saw a news

658
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: article about male loneliness epidemic, and all it talked about

659
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: was how it affected women. I dislocated my knee at

660
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: work and no one messaged me or contacted me to

661
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 2: see if I was doing okay or anything. But when

662
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: one of the women went on leave for a sawback,

663
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: they sent her a Get World card and some cash

664
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: end quote. Do you see what I'm talking about? This,

665
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 2: to me is a prime example of this poor guy

666
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: being mad at the woman who got the card and

667
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: not at the system that meant that you didn't feel

668
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 2: you could reach out, or the system that made it

669
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: seem that because you were a man, you could be

670
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: strong and they didn't have to help you. What if

671
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: instead of focusing on what women could or could not

672
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 2: do for men, why does a male versus female problem,

673
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: we focused on how this is a resource issue, a

674
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: time issue, a mental health issue, a system issue. If

675
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: someone brings up the male loneliness epidemic to you, I

676
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: think it's an invitation to instead steer them towards the

677
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: bigger picture by saying, you know, yeah, it's so awful

678
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: that men are made to feel so limited in their

679
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 2: emotional capabiit that being in a relationship is their only

680
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: cue loneliness that really does suck? Or say like, yes,

681
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: it is so hard that mental health and physical health

682
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: struggles are so stigmatized that people feel isolated, or bring

683
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: up the statistics that we talked about before, Men and

684
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: lone Men and women are equally lonely because we are

685
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: all lacking from opportunities to meaningfully connect. That's something we

686
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: really need to fix as a collective, don't we. And

687
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: whatever gender you are, if you see an issue with

688
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: loneliness in your life or in your community, become the

689
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: person that fixes that. Be the instigator. Make a run club,

690
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: invite people over for dinner at your house, become the host.

691
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 2: Join a book club or make a book club. Get

692
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: a foster dog and walk it in the park. The

693
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 2: amount of people you will meet and talk to is

694
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 2: mind blowing. Volunteer even if it's through work like. There

695
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: are so many other options here, And if you have

696
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: other suggestions of things that you've done, please like drop

697
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: them below. So the number the third thing, number three.

698
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 2: Third thing we need to do it is we need

699
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: to not engage with manisphere influences that make men feel

700
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: more isolated and instead promote healthy male role models. If

701
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: you see someone spouting just like plain nonsense, block them,

702
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: press uninterested, do not comment, do not like, do not argue,

703
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 2: do not engage, Stop giving these people oxygen and instead

704
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: make it a point to follow, engage, comment like reshare

705
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: content from healthy male role models. Here are some examples

706
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: of people who I think are just absolutely excellent. The

707
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: first one is Ned Brockman. He was an electrician who

708
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: ran across Australia in a couple of years ago, and

709
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: he raised two point six million dollars for homelessness. And

710
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 2: he continues to share super and inspiring stuff. Super healthy

711
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: male role model. I'd be so happy if my son's

712
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: turned out like him. Hank Green another great example. He

713
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 2: was just battling cancer and he continued to share his

714
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: journey throughout that, and he continues to like inform people

715
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: about science, about news. He's great. Dak Shepherd and his

716
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 2: podcast Armchair Expert. He also overcame a substance abuse problem.

717
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: He talks about that very openly. Doctor J Barnett incredible man.

718
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: I love his stuff. Tom Daly as well, love him

719
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: as well. Like I can keep going. I can list

720
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: all these amazing men who I think are great examples

721
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 2: of what it means to be a man who asks

722
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: for help, who is connected, who talks about struggle, who

723
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: also does really cool stuff. You know the show that

724
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: I think every man should be required to watch at school,

725
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: It's Ted Lasso. Like that show is one of the

726
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: most amazing things ever made, and it talks about male

727
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: loneliness about men's mental health and masculinity and divorce and breakups.

728
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: In like the most wonderful, positive way that is actually productive.

729
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 2: We need more of that number four. We need to

730
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: call out the men in our lives now. This is

731
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 2: specifically for other men. Silence is complicity, and one of

732
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 2: the most powerful ways to shift culture is not through

733
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: big articles, outrage, Instagram posts, even podcasts like this one.

734
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: We know it's through everyday accountability. When men hear their friends, brothers, colleagues,

735
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: strangers make sexist jokes, belittle women, dismiss conversations about violence,

736
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: or continue to spurt toxic myths about masculinity, those moments

737
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: were really critical. Too often they slide unchallenged because it's uncomfortable.

738
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: It's uncomfortable. I've had times where I haven't spoken of

739
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 2: about things I really should have, but that only silently

740
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 2: reinforces a belief system that is hurting your fellow men.

741
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: When another man steps in, whether it's like a simple

742
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: like that's not funny, or like another guy saying like

743
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: cut the shit, screw your head on, it cuts through

744
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: in a way that women, unfortunately often can't. Research in

745
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: social psychology shows that in group criticism when it comes

746
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: from someone who is inside your own group, it carries

747
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: more weight. A man challenging another man doesn't just interrupt

748
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: the harmful cycle, it redefines the norm within that group,

749
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,959
Speaker 2: and it signals that, you know, respect and equality for women.

750
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: That's the standard, not the exception, not just something that

751
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 2: you perform when you're actually around women. Number five, and

752
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 2: I think this is the most crucial one. We need

753
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: to stop pretending that men and women can't be friends.

754
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: And I know if you're a woman, you're probably hearing

755
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 2: this and being like, oh, like, I know the feeling, right,

756
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: I know why you're probably rolling your eyes. You're like, yeah,

757
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: but I try to be friends with men and they

758
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: just want to date me. No, we need to make

759
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: this completely photonic from both sides. This is bringing me

760
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: back to an earlier point I made about the fact

761
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: that male loneliness. Yes, it is caused by men not

762
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 2: having male friends. It's also caused by the fact that

763
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: when they see a woman that's either someone they want

764
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: to date or they can dismiss, or maybe a family member,

765
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: and oh my gosh, do they miss out? They miss

766
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: out when they have that mindset, Imagine thinking that you

767
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 2: can only be friends with fifty percent of the people

768
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: in the world compared to one hundred percent of people.

769
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 2: You're already limiting yourself here, like you're already you're already

770
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: starting from a less favorable position when it comes to

771
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: tackling loneliness. You already have less options. I did a

772
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: full episode on this a while back titled Can men

773
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: and women Be Friends? And I think I know the

774
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: answer is yes, they very much can, and they very

775
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: much should be. I think this would go a long

776
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: way and also humanizing women for some of these men

777
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: who have unfortunately fallen into a bit of a male

778
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: centric echo chamber. Number six. We need to continue to

779
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: encourage people to talk about their mental health and to

780
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 2: reduce stigma around to saying I'm super lonely, I'm super sad,

781
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 2: I'm having a rough time. As I kind of finish

782
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 2: up this episode, I want to reiterate, loneliness sucks, whoever

783
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: you are. The stigma we face around mental health is

784
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: actively hurting people and shaming them into becoming further isolated

785
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: and silent, not getting the support that is available to them,

786
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 2: not being open, and let's be real, it really really

787
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: hurts people. I also think a rising tide lifts all ships.

788
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: It's not a gender thing. We need to start having

789
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 2: conversations openly about mental health, and we need to start

790
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: by doing it ourselves. Be brave enough to just answer

791
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 2: the question how are you doing? With honesty because it

792
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 2: has a chain reaction. It invites people to share. For

793
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 2: my male listeners, even if it's just the men and

794
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 2: your family, your cousins, your dad, your grandfather, your brothers,

795
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: share with them, ask them how they are.

796
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: Check in.

797
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: It might feel awkward, it might feel hard. I actually

798
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: think sometimes the best things feel uncomfortable at first, because

799
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: that discomfort is a sign that something needs to happen

800
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: and something needs to change. Alrighty, as we wrap this

801
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: episode up, I want to thank you again for coming

802
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 2: into this episode with an open mind. And if you're

803
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 2: going to comment somebody down below, please keep it civilized.

804
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: I will like, I don't want to see anyone being nasty.

805
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to see anyone being mean. I definitely

806
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: don't want to see anyone calling me fat as has

807
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: happened in the past, or anyone calling anyone anything rude.

808
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: To keep it civil, but I do want to see

809
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: the conversation keep going down there, because there's definitely things

810
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: I've missed. There's definitely perspectives that I just haven't thought of.

811
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: So if you have a perspective or an opinion, please

812
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: please share it below. I'd love to hear from you,

813
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 2: and I hope that this episode has eliminated some things

814
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: for you. Share it with a friend if it has,

815
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 2: share it with your guy friends, your female friends, your

816
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 2: friends of all genders, your old friends, your new friends,

817
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: whoever it is, and see what their thoughts are as well.

818
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: Make sure as well that you are following us on

819
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: Instagram at that Psychology Podcast if you want to learn

820
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: more about this topic and also see more of what

821
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 2: we're doing on the Psychology of your twenties. I also

822
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 2: want to thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions

823
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: to this episode and for pushing me to do this

824
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 2: episode and really really appreciate her. We wouldn't be able

825
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: to do it without her. And make sure that you're

826
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: following along wherever you're listening Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app.

827
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: Give us a five star review if you feel called

828
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 2: to do so. This won't be the last time we

829
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 2: talk about this, so I can't wait to keep the

830
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 2: conversation going. But until next time, until our next episode,

831
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, take care

832
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: of yourself as well, talk about your mental health as well.

833
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: That's my final, my final reminder, and we will talk

834
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 2: very very soon,