WEBVTT - Xi Lied...and Here We Are.  Josh Rogin Talks To A&G.

0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:10.200
<v Speaker 1>The Armstrong and Getty Show. He spent hours upon hours

0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:13.119
<v Speaker 1>speaking with Chinese President chi Jing. Pain doesn't have a

0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.680
<v Speaker 1>democratic with a small d bone in his body, but

0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.000
<v Speaker 1>he's a smart, smart guy. He's one of the guys

0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.119
<v Speaker 1>like Prutent who thinks that autocracy is the wave of

0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.160
<v Speaker 1>the future. Democracy can't function in an ever and ever

0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.839
<v Speaker 1>complex world. Biden refused to answer specific questions on China policy,

0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.720
<v Speaker 1>whether the US will maintain tariffs on China or banned

0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.239
<v Speaker 1>more imports of products made with forced labor. The President

0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.640
<v Speaker 1>says China wants to become the wealthiest, most powerful country

0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.760
<v Speaker 1>in the world, promised that won't happen on his watch,

0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.960
<v Speaker 1>and framed relations with China as a global competition between

0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.279
<v Speaker 1>autocracy and democracy. That's what his state tune, we don't

0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:59.960
<v Speaker 1>approved democracy works. I appreciated him saying it that fourth rightly. Uh,

0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.240
<v Speaker 1>And I'm also excited that we're gonna have Josh Rogan

0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:04.080
<v Speaker 1>on with us on the Armstrong and get A show.

0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Josh as a columnist for the Global Opinion section of

0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.319
<v Speaker 1>The Washington Post, a political analyst with CNN, and also

0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.800
<v Speaker 1>has this book that came out Chaos under Heaven. Trump.

0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.959
<v Speaker 1>She and The Battle for the twenty one Century on

0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.080
<v Speaker 1>sale now wherever books are sold. Josh, welcome to the

0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Armstrong and gett a show. Great to be back. Thank you.

0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.360
<v Speaker 1>I am a nut for this China stuff, like it's

0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.959
<v Speaker 1>been my hobby for the last couple of years. Try.

0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:30.880
<v Speaker 1>I was unaware of your book, and I guarantee I

0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.520
<v Speaker 1>will read it um because I just I just well,

0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.400
<v Speaker 1>is it overstating it to say this is the story

0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.880
<v Speaker 1>of the world for the next century or more? I

0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.080
<v Speaker 1>don't think that. I think the China challenges up there

0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.480
<v Speaker 1>with like climate change, is the two things that will

0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.560
<v Speaker 1>shape the world as we know it, and the two

0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:52.400
<v Speaker 1>things that we have to get right, because if we

0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.680
<v Speaker 1>don't get those things right, nothing else really matters. And

0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.720
<v Speaker 1>you know that wasn't the wide help position for a

0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.640
<v Speaker 1>long time. But to the COVID pandemic. During the COVID pandemic,

0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.280
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't take much convincing because everyone in the world

0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.080
<v Speaker 1>is affected by it, and everyone knows that. The reason

0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:10.880
<v Speaker 1>that they're sitting in their basement and they haven't seen

0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.160
<v Speaker 1>their grandma for a year. And in part due to

0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.720
<v Speaker 1>the fact that the Chinese Communist Party UH actions now

0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.200
<v Speaker 1>affect our lives and affect our public health and our

0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.680
<v Speaker 1>security and our prosperity and our freedom. And that's just

0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.080
<v Speaker 1>the latest example. But that's not going to be the

0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.160
<v Speaker 1>last example. So you know, what happens in Beijing doesn't

0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.519
<v Speaker 1>stay in Beijing. So we all have an interest in

0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.880
<v Speaker 1>figuring this thing out and then coming together and mounting

0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.480
<v Speaker 1>a response. Well, I'm glad that everybody, you know, Republican

0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.120
<v Speaker 1>and Democrats, seems to be on board with understanding that

0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.760
<v Speaker 1>our bet was wrong for for forty years that you know,

0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:45.560
<v Speaker 1>we let them, We let them grow enough and get

0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.760
<v Speaker 1>rich enough in the you know, well, they'll come around

0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.400
<v Speaker 1>to capitalism and freedom in our way world. And uh,

0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.839
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they had any intention of ever doing that.

0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.000
<v Speaker 1>We now know that, and and everybody realizes, and Joe

0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Biden's stating out loud, China is dead set on becoming

0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.519
<v Speaker 1>the most powerful country in the world. We're not gonna

0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.280
<v Speaker 1>let them. I'm happy to hear that, right. I think

0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.880
<v Speaker 1>you put it perfectly. You know, we didn't know whether

0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.240
<v Speaker 1>or not China was gonna liberalize, and maybe they didn't know,

0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.640
<v Speaker 1>but at least since when shij Pink came to power,

0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.320
<v Speaker 1>it became increasingly obvious that they were going to go

0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.440
<v Speaker 1>another way. And what what Jing Ping and the Chinese

0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.400
<v Speaker 1>Communist Party want is they want to have all the

0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.400
<v Speaker 1>benefits of our system without any of the responsibilities. In

0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.800
<v Speaker 1>other words, they want the parts of capitalism that allow

0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.400
<v Speaker 1>their companies to succeed, but they don't want to live

0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.920
<v Speaker 1>up to the basic norms of you know, fair trade

0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.800
<v Speaker 1>and human rights and all those other things that make

0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.240
<v Speaker 1>that system possible. And we didn't have any idea what

0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.840
<v Speaker 1>to do about that. And you know, the Trump administration,

0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.400
<v Speaker 1>crazy and chaotic as it was, they took a step

0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.040
<v Speaker 1>at it at least and they changed the conversation in

0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.520
<v Speaker 1>a way that they can't that can't be undone. But

0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.200
<v Speaker 1>because the Trump administration was so dysfunctional and messy, uh,

0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.680
<v Speaker 1>they didn't do it all that, all all that at

0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.520
<v Speaker 1>many points. And now that's what the find administration has

0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.480
<v Speaker 1>a chance to fix that. We don't know how they're

0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.760
<v Speaker 1>gonna fix because they don't know how they're gonna fix it,

0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.040
<v Speaker 1>but they're gonna they're trying to come up with that. Now,

0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.360
<v Speaker 1>this battle between the United States and China has so

0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:15.520
<v Speaker 1>many the similarities of the Cold War between US and

0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.159
<v Speaker 1>the Soviet Union, but so many things that are completely different.

0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:21.719
<v Speaker 1>For instance, Hollywood's biggest market was never the Soviet Union.

0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, if you wanted to sell cigarettes or toys

0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.000
<v Speaker 1>or whatever, or Nike shoes, you know that the Soviet

0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:28.760
<v Speaker 1>Union wasn't where you're gonna try to do it. I

0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.599
<v Speaker 1>was looking at one of your tweets from I think

0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.840
<v Speaker 1>not that long ago, where you tweeted out if you

0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.360
<v Speaker 1>refuse to be complicit and mass slave labor, the CCP

0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.160
<v Speaker 1>will kill your business in China, and it reminded me

0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:41.919
<v Speaker 1>of the story I came across yesterday that I was

0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.679
<v Speaker 1>going to talk about today. H and M and Nike

0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:49.800
<v Speaker 1>joined brands facing boycotts over statements on Xingjiang cotton. Is

0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.560
<v Speaker 1>that the way you pronounced that that region probably not,

0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.719
<v Speaker 1>probably not, but anyway, that's uh, you know, the particular

0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.719
<v Speaker 1>kind of cotton there, and that's the region of China

0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.640
<v Speaker 1>where they got slave lay and everything else. And so

0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:07.240
<v Speaker 1>now there's a boycott against Nike and others in um

0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.480
<v Speaker 1>in China, and I just feel like that a time

0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.960
<v Speaker 1>is coming swiftly where Hollywood is not gonna be able

0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.599
<v Speaker 1>to do business, Nike's not gonna be able to do

0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.159
<v Speaker 1>maybe Apple, It's just the time is going to be

0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.440
<v Speaker 1>up soon, isn't it. It seems to be heading in

0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.120
<v Speaker 1>that direction. And the way you said it is exactly right.

0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.599
<v Speaker 1>This is not the Cold War. It's there are some similarities,

0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.400
<v Speaker 1>but that analogy gets overused and it's also used as

0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.599
<v Speaker 1>a weapon to attack anyone who wants to rise to

0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.200
<v Speaker 1>confront the Chinese government's bad behavior. They'll say, oh, what

0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.560
<v Speaker 1>do you want another Cold war? What are you crazy?

0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.520
<v Speaker 1>But you know, we forget about the term cold war.

0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:43.520
<v Speaker 1>That's just a bumper stick. Or what we're facing is

0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:48.080
<v Speaker 1>a systems battle, a competition, uh, that we have to

0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.680
<v Speaker 1>engage in and hopefully win. And that's you know that

0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.280
<v Speaker 1>not uh leading towards a conflict. That's trying to avoid

0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.719
<v Speaker 1>a conflict by addressing the problem before it becomes a conflict. Now,

0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.279
<v Speaker 1>when the NBA got you punished for four hundred million

0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.520
<v Speaker 1>dollars for one tweet from one guy about Hong Kong,

0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:07.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people around the country were like, oh

0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.200
<v Speaker 1>my god, we got a problem here. It seems that

0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the Chinese Communist Party at this point is putting its

0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.720
<v Speaker 1>political interests and the party's interests above not only you know,

0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.160
<v Speaker 1>free commerce, but even China's interests right, because you know

0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.040
<v Speaker 1>that when they lash out of American companies, they hurt

0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.839
<v Speaker 1>their ability to attract investment, and they hurt the American companies.

0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:29.960
<v Speaker 1>They put everybody in a bad situation. And the only

0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.719
<v Speaker 1>reason that they're doing it is because they're defending the

0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.480
<v Speaker 1>party's practice of genocide. Okay, And you know, for a

0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.800
<v Speaker 1>long time Wall Street firms, H and M, and Nike,

0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.520
<v Speaker 1>they looked the other way. Hollywood Disney made a film

0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.800
<v Speaker 1>in Jinjang, and I just pronounced it incorrectly too, by

0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.560
<v Speaker 1>the way, and the public I don't know how I pronounced.

0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.640
<v Speaker 1>It's not the point. The point is they thanked the

0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.719
<v Speaker 1>public security of Bureau in the credits. They thanked the

0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.479
<v Speaker 1>people who were manning the concentration camp walls. And all

0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.920
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden, Americans are coming out this realization that,

0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.039
<v Speaker 1>oh wait, I don't want to watch a movie that

0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.760
<v Speaker 1>was made with the help of genocide perpetrators. Oh wait,

0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to take the cotton that slaves picked

0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.600
<v Speaker 1>and put it on my body, because that's not cool.

0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.559
<v Speaker 1>It's not good. So you know that Awakening has taken

0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.800
<v Speaker 1>a long time to come to fruition, but just shows

0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.800
<v Speaker 1>you how bad the atrocities have gotten and how, like

0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, determine the Chinese Communist Party is to make

0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.400
<v Speaker 1>sure that they punish anyone who dares to speak up

0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.280
<v Speaker 1>about it. We're talking with Josh Rogan. He is a

0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.160
<v Speaker 1>columnist for the Global Opinion section of the Washington Post

0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Political Landlist with CNN. I'll mention the name of his

0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.040
<v Speaker 1>book again towards the end, because I'm absolutely gonna read it.

0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Like I said, I've become a kind of a nut

0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.680
<v Speaker 1>on this whole China thing. I'm really rooting for Nomad

0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.720
<v Speaker 1>Land to win either Best Picture or Best Director at

0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.440
<v Speaker 1>the Oscars because that woman, and I don't have her

0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.920
<v Speaker 1>name at the tip of my tongue, who directed that,

0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Chloe Jao. I believe, yeah, she's got some statements that

0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.160
<v Speaker 1>angered China. And if she goes up there and receives

0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.560
<v Speaker 1>that award and doubles down on criticizing China, I think

0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.560
<v Speaker 1>China will cut ties with Hollywood or say some really

0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.160
<v Speaker 1>mass nasty things in that and Hollywood will have no

0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.040
<v Speaker 1>option but to cut their ties with China. And I

0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.800
<v Speaker 1>think that could be a really big moment, not just

0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.280
<v Speaker 1>for you, know, Hollywood and movies. But for the world,

0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.120
<v Speaker 1>I think that's really gonna draw a lot of attention. Yeah, no,

0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I listen. I think that the problem in Hollywood is

0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.880
<v Speaker 1>that for fifteen twenty years they've been cow towing to

0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.560
<v Speaker 1>the Chinese Communist party line, most of the big studios

0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.600
<v Speaker 1>for a very understandable and obvious reason is that's where

0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.720
<v Speaker 1>their money is, that's where their market is. That they

0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.480
<v Speaker 1>but you know, again, at some point they have to

0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.040
<v Speaker 1>balance that against the cost to their US business and

0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.160
<v Speaker 1>their reputational costs and the human costs that they're contributing to.

0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.640
<v Speaker 1>And that balance is still on the Chinese side. And

0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, you know, we can every every time we

0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.800
<v Speaker 1>stand against that is a good thing. But make no mistake,

0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, and Hollywood, they're still

0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.320
<v Speaker 1>making the calculation that their their best bet is to

0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.920
<v Speaker 1>go along, to get along with the these Communist party

0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.400
<v Speaker 1>That hasn't changed and that will only change when regular

0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Americans vote with their feet and vote with their pocket

0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.320
<v Speaker 1>books and they say that these companies, hey, listen, uh,

0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you're gonna make a movie with the

0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.800
<v Speaker 1>people who are manning the concentration camps, we're not gonna

0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.880
<v Speaker 1>watch that movie. Or hey, Nike, if you're gonna have uh,

0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:22.120
<v Speaker 1>you know, slave weaker, slave labors picked the cotton that

0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.160
<v Speaker 1>goes into shoes, We're not gonna buy those shoes. And

0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.079
<v Speaker 1>what's gonna happen with the Olympics or where you're just

0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.040
<v Speaker 1>gonna go to the Olympics seems not And it's like going, yeah,

0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.560
<v Speaker 1>it seems crazy. It seems insane to me that there

0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.360
<v Speaker 1>would be an Olympics and you'll have uh, US athletes

0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.160
<v Speaker 1>walking around that track and there's Vice President Harris in

0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.400
<v Speaker 1>the stands cheering on that that that just that can't happen. Kenneth,

0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.240
<v Speaker 1>I think that's exactly what's about to happen now. You know,

0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.240
<v Speaker 1>we got some time between now and then. But but

0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.200
<v Speaker 1>as as much as there is more discussion about China

0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.800
<v Speaker 1>and more discussion about the CCP, and it's miss a

0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.520
<v Speaker 1>bad actions than there ever was before, and again that's

0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.720
<v Speaker 1>because of the pandemic, because every human in every country

0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:04.920
<v Speaker 1>saw what it was like when you have the Chinese

0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.959
<v Speaker 1>Communist Party lead order, when they had the most science

0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:09.960
<v Speaker 1>and the most data and the most mass, and what

0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.640
<v Speaker 1>did they do with that power? They blackmailed the world

0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.920
<v Speaker 1>to shut up about their hands me of the coronavirus,

0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.680
<v Speaker 1>and they hit the data which made our responses. Where

0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.680
<v Speaker 1>so then they lied to the President United States in

0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.720
<v Speaker 1>the book they had this is the story about Shijing

0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.959
<v Speaker 1>thing lying to President Trump about the coronavirus thing. It

0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:26.560
<v Speaker 1>would go away in warm weather, and it would go

0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.720
<v Speaker 1>away when the and if you used herbal medicine, and

0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:31.920
<v Speaker 1>they had it under control in all of these lives

0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.800
<v Speaker 1>fed into the President's head and they came out in

0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:39.920
<v Speaker 1>our policy and exacerbating the suffering of Americans, millions of people.

0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.920
<v Speaker 1>And so that's again a big step. But right now,

0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.040
<v Speaker 1>I gotta tell you, if you if you just look

0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:47.480
<v Speaker 1>at what's going on in the business ward and you

0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.560
<v Speaker 1>look at what's going on in Congress, if they're not

0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.240
<v Speaker 1>there yet, okay, and and and and that's what you're

0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.520
<v Speaker 1>gonna see. You're gonna see a lot of Americans and

0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of American companies, you know, making that calculation

0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.360
<v Speaker 1>of uh, you know, should I go to the epics

0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.560
<v Speaker 1>or should I stand with the leakers. And they're going

0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.920
<v Speaker 1>to choose the form or not the ladder. You've seen

0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.520
<v Speaker 1>how far the poll numbers of tank though in a

0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.920
<v Speaker 1>pretty short period of time in terms of Americans opinions

0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.400
<v Speaker 1>of China, whether they're a friend or an enemy, or

0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.920
<v Speaker 1>where they rank. I mean, it's it's pretty dramatic, yes,

0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.600
<v Speaker 1>and that is I think driving a lot of what

0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.000
<v Speaker 1>the Bindant administration is doing, because they can read the

0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.640
<v Speaker 1>polls too. Now you know the that that doesn't mean

0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.120
<v Speaker 1>that in Congress they're actually getting anything done, because the

0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.280
<v Speaker 1>dysfunction in our system, and it's function in our Congress

0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.839
<v Speaker 1>and in our government has it's not actually fixed. So

0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's it's it's it's common for people to

0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.600
<v Speaker 1>look at those poll numbers and to say, oh, well,

0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, you China hawks and the Trump administration guys,

0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.559
<v Speaker 1>and you know, you're ramping up the Cold War through

0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.040
<v Speaker 1>syditese trap blah blah blah, and now everyone's against China.

0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.240
<v Speaker 1>But the truth of the matter is that people are

0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.720
<v Speaker 1>reacting to the Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party's actions,

0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.360
<v Speaker 1>and it's not really about the US versus China. It's

0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.600
<v Speaker 1>about how China is acting around the world. And if

0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.520
<v Speaker 1>you think about it that way, you really us well, okay, actually,

0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:02.920
<v Speaker 1>the thing that we really have to do is to

0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.760
<v Speaker 1>de politicize the China issue, and we have to get

0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.200
<v Speaker 1>away from anything that gets anywhere near racist or hateful language.

0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.960
<v Speaker 1>We have to make sure not to target Asians, indigion, Americans,

0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.400
<v Speaker 1>because they are actually are allies of this fight, not

0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.560
<v Speaker 1>our enemy. And then if we can do that, and

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.000
<v Speaker 1>then we can fix our own government, then we could

0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.040
<v Speaker 1>probably win this competition based because our system, which is

0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.200
<v Speaker 1>based on the values of human rights and rule of

0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 1>law and freedom and freedom of religion, those are actually

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 1>the way, if you know, people want to live, That's

0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.720
<v Speaker 1>the way people ought to treat each other. That's what

0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 1>our basic society is built on the rights of individuals. Uh.

0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.080
<v Speaker 1>That's a better model, but it's only a better model

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.360
<v Speaker 1>if it works. The book and I absolutely I'm not

0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.120
<v Speaker 1>just saying this, will read this because I'm I'm grabbing

0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.200
<v Speaker 1>everything i can on China for the last couple of years.

0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Chaos under heaving Trump, she and the Battle for the

0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 1>twenty one century. It's on sale as we speak. Josh Rogan.

0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.120
<v Speaker 1>One final question, do you foresee in the next year,

0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.320
<v Speaker 1>five years, it won't be a year, but five years,

0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.920
<v Speaker 1>ten years where we have such a bipolar world, where

0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.079
<v Speaker 1>these big companies. You you either do business in China

0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.679
<v Speaker 1>or the United States. You're you're a foreign country. You're

0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 1>either in part of China's orbit or the United States orbit.

0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.720
<v Speaker 1>You really can't do both. Do you think that's where

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 1>we're heading? Right? There's an essential interconnectedness between the United

0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 1>States and China that will never go away, nor should it,

0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:24.800
<v Speaker 1>you know. And that's another big difference between this and

0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.000
<v Speaker 1>the Cold War with the Soviet Union, is that they're

0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.360
<v Speaker 1>gonna be the autonomy in the world. That's not going

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.520
<v Speaker 1>to be something that we can stop. It's not something

0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.280
<v Speaker 1>that we should try to stop. What we have to

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.280
<v Speaker 1>try to do is create a shape China's rise in

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.280
<v Speaker 1>a way that doesn't result in our us getting stick

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:44.120
<v Speaker 1>in us having sax choices in our security, and that

0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.719
<v Speaker 1>we can still tweet about whatever we want. So the

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.199
<v Speaker 1>answer to your question is that's partially mainly up to

0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.280
<v Speaker 1>the Chinese government. But what we have to do is

0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.679
<v Speaker 1>we have to clarify this choice for them, and that

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.040
<v Speaker 1>means raising the pressure on them, to put them to

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 1>a decision to say that hey, listen, if you want

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 1>to participate in the benefits of our half of the world,

0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 1>then you're gonna have to stop committing genocide and stop

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.400
<v Speaker 1>stealing your intellectual property and all and stop you know,

0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.720
<v Speaker 1>punishing companies for things that people tweet, or if you

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 1>go the other way, we're going to impose a cost

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 1>on you. So I think that's a call for addressing

0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.280
<v Speaker 1>the problem before that happens, before we have some sort

0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 1>of conflict or some sort of bifurcated world, because that's

0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.480
<v Speaker 1>not a good outcome. But it's gonna take the Chinese

0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.480
<v Speaker 1>government and the Chinese kind of party changing its behavior

0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 1>also to avoid that outcome. Well, I took a lot

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.840
<v Speaker 1>of your time, I realized, but I appreciate it. It's

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 1>a topic I'm super hot for and I will read

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.000
<v Speaker 1>your book and people will talk again. Josh Rogan, thanks

0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 1>for your time today. Thank you. We gotta take a break.

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 1>Text line four kftcre