Speaker 1: Media, what have y'all?
Speaker 2: Welcome to It already happened here, because this was the
Speaker 2: goal of this show, was to tell you that things
Speaker 2: was probably going to happen here, and then it did.
Speaker 3: I am not one of the normal hosts, as you
Speaker 3: can tell.
Speaker 2: I am your your friendly cousin that shows up every
Speaker 2: once in a while during the holidays. And if your
Speaker 2: cousins are anything like my cousins, which means we're immediately
Speaker 2: going to get in trouble because parents are gonna blame
Speaker 2: you since I'm the cousin, because it's not my fault
Speaker 2: because I'm the guest. Anyway, we want to talk about
Speaker 2: some stuff that, like in some senses, is a bit
Speaker 2: absurd to talk about, because like the American understanding of
Speaker 2: pan ethnic terms and demographics are just.
Speaker 3: Oh god, sir, yes, right, it just don't make sense.
Speaker 2: Like nobody in the group identifies as what the group
Speaker 2: is called, but that's still the group, right. I recommend
Speaker 2: a book called white Fish Don't Exist. It's a great book.
Speaker 2: I'm here with the brilliant, brilliant meta wong.
Speaker 4: What's up, miya, It's it's all happening, It's it's all
Speaker 4: happening here. And it sucks, but at least I'm getting
Speaker 4: great interests, best what I've ever gotten best best interest.
Speaker 2: That's what I come for, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: Like I come for us to be able to have
Speaker 2: pancakes for breakfast, you know, because your cousin's here, you
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying, So you get to have like
Speaker 2: pancakes for breakfast and you know, stay in your pajamas longer,
Speaker 2: Like it's great when your cousins are here.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, so let's do this we want to talk about. Well,
Speaker 2: the thing is, like I don't know if y'all have
Speaker 2: admitted I admitted this on our show that like we
Speaker 2: kind of had to have all hands on deck discussion
Speaker 2: here as to like, okay, let's get organized, like let's
Speaker 2: figure out what we're gonna say as a network and
Speaker 2: kind of brainstorm things talk about because I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: like a lot of us are still like wait, what
Speaker 2: the fuck? I'm sorry what like, you know, and us
Speaker 2: holding down the DEI section of cool zode we are
Speaker 2: the diversity, equity and inclusion over here. Figured you know,
Speaker 2: there were some things that were super shocking around some
Speaker 2: of the data that was coming back from the exit
Speaker 2: polls as we thought about like, okay, so who actually
Speaker 2: voted for who and how much? And so we kind
Speaker 2: of wanted to talk about the asient vote, right yep,
Speaker 2: which is again from the intro it's an absurd category to.
Speaker 5: Say that, yeah, totally, Yeah.
Speaker 2: The Latino vote, which is also equally as absurd as
Speaker 2: a category.
Speaker 3: And yeah, just.
Speaker 2: Where some of the sort of marginalized groups, like some
Speaker 2: of the numbers that were in some way shocking. I
Speaker 2: will say, as far as holding down the black man, say,
Speaker 2: I am very proud of us for eventually coming back home,
Speaker 2: right and voting in the upper eighty percent for the
Speaker 2: black woman, you know, which was encouraging. Now granted our
Speaker 2: number of how many of us voted shrike.
Speaker 3: Immensely, you know. But either way, we just wanted to
Speaker 3: talk about those things.
Speaker 2: And I think one caveat for me, I would say,
Speaker 2: and then I'll turn it over. I think Mia, like,
Speaker 2: you know, you can take it on from there. Is
Speaker 2: I am, in fact a black man, So I think
Speaker 2: I can speak from a certain level of experience. Obviously
Speaker 2: not the experience of every human, right, but I can
Speaker 2: speak from a certain level of experience. Now, as we
Speaker 2: talk about the Latino vote. I am, in fact, news flash,
Speaker 2: not Latino. You know what I'm saying. My wife is
Speaker 2: from East LA. But obviously proximity is not the same
Speaker 2: as being a member of So keep that in mind
Speaker 2: as we discuss these things. So turn it over to
Speaker 2: turn it over to me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, this is one of these you're
Speaker 4: talking a bit about the sort of category and coherence here, right,
Speaker 4: And like one of the things about the way this
Speaker 4: is aggregated is that so Asian Americans as a whole
Speaker 4: went about five percent to the right in this election,
Speaker 4: but that doesn't capture what was going on, because every
Speaker 4: part of the demographics were just sort of flying in
Speaker 4: every direction. Yeah, and unfortunately, most of the actual right
Speaker 4: wing pull was very specifically from my people, which is
Speaker 4: to say, Chinese Americans who went right in staggering numbers.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I'm not really surprised by because this
Speaker 4: has just been the way that sort of specifically Chinese
Speaker 4: American communities have been shifting for the past I mean
Speaker 4: really like eight ten years, but particularly intensifying since twenty twenty. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And so if you look at sort of where these
Speaker 4: things happened, the biggest ones were New York and LA,
Speaker 4: and you know, places like Seattle had some shifts, but
Speaker 4: I think New York in particular, your can La in
Speaker 4: particular are important for this because a huge part of
Speaker 4: the reason that this happened was the sort of crime
Speaker 4: panic stuff. Yeah, and the crime paddic didn't one hundred
Speaker 4: percent start with Chinese Americans, but it's one of the
Speaker 4: earliest sort of incubators of this entire thing. So the
Speaker 4: sort of trajectory of this is that in twenty twenty,
Speaker 4: you have this sort of like whole stop Asian hate campaign, right,
Speaker 4: and you know, yeah, you have all this race like
Speaker 4: sort of like racist like excitement of violence. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: you get sort of two responses to it.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: There's the kind of like liberal ish response, which is
Speaker 4: stop Asian hate, but it's kind of vacuous, it doesn't
Speaker 4: doesn't really have any political like content at all. It's
Speaker 4: kind of vaguely anti Trump, but like there's not much there.
Speaker 4: And then there's the right wing response. And the right
Speaker 4: ring response is just okay, like there, we're just gonna
Speaker 4: blame black people for this, yeah, and that's like fucking horseshit.
Speaker 4: It's like, no, it was almost everyone which is getting
Speaker 4: killed by white people because that's almost all yeah, the
Speaker 4: way racial violence works in this country, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: But unfortunately, you know, this was an area where the
Speaker 4: left kind of just did nothing. And if you look
Speaker 4: at left response, you know, there's there's there's some people
Speaker 4: who did stuff, right there is you know, like some
Speaker 4: sex worker orgs like Red Canary Song did some great work.
Speaker 4: But most of the rest of the American left saw
Speaker 4: this and was like, Okay, the thing that matters here
Speaker 4: and the actual problem with anti Asian violence is that
Speaker 4: people are criticizing the Chinese government too much and that's
Speaker 4: what's causing this, and so we need to defend the CCP.
Speaker 4: And this is just politically, this is fucking radioactive to like, yeah,
Speaker 4: eighty ninety percent of like fucking Asian Americans because like, yeah,
Speaker 4: there's a sort of sort of combinations of factors.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: You have on the one hand, us sort of immigant
Speaker 4: communities where most of this shit doesn't work because you're
Speaker 4: dealing with people who were like, I don't know, we're
Speaker 4: fucking sterilized by the government because the CCP decided to
Speaker 4: like do Malfusian fucking population control.
Speaker 3: Have no love for the CCP none whatsoever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, and then this is all this is
Speaker 4: too reductive, even with Cubans. But it's like this is
Speaker 4: something where you could just sort of brush this away
Speaker 4: with like, oh, all of these people were like reactionaries
Speaker 4: from Taiwan or something like that. It's like no, like
Speaker 4: a lot of these people came here very recently, and
Speaker 4: there are you know, there are sort of Tibetan communities.
Speaker 5: There's finishing gen here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and all of those people like all of the
Speaker 4: sort of pro CCP shit is radioactive, and that's what
Speaker 4: was coming out of the American left. And the same
Speaker 4: thing with like sort of with with the Hong Kong
Speaker 4: movement right where there was like you know, there was
Speaker 4: this really broad consensus amongst sort of American social democracy.
Speaker 5: You know, you're sort of like people who were like.
Speaker 4: Marginally she left of Bernie right, that that stuff was
Speaker 4: all CIA stuff and it was bad and that you
Speaker 4: should support the CCP.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: I mean there are some Tenet organizers you do at work,
Speaker 4: We've had on the show, right, like, there there are
Speaker 4: there are people trying to organize the communities, but like
Speaker 4: the mainstream left was just like, fuck it, we don't care,
Speaker 4: we don't give a shit about you, Like the important
Speaker 4: thing about you being killed is that we can defend
Speaker 4: this fucking state that we like. Yeah, And so what
Speaker 4: happened to the stop Asian hate thing is that it
Speaker 4: got folded into the crime panic because the product of
Speaker 4: this was both the sort of right wing we're going
Speaker 4: to give you anti black racism as you're like, this
Speaker 4: is this is going to be your solution quote unquote
Speaker 4: to this yeh, and the sort of stop Asian hate,
Speaker 4: like mainstream sort of liberal thing both just fed directly
Speaker 4: into carcuralism. And you know, so you started like it
Speaker 4: turned into this rallying cry for like hate crime bills,
Speaker 4: and then like increasing police presences and you know, like
Speaker 4: the fucking cops were like all over the place of
Speaker 4: this shit was happening, and you know, didn't do anything
Speaker 4: because they're cops, right.
Speaker 5: Like, all of this.
Speaker 4: Fed into it went sort of seamlessly into the crime panic,
Speaker 4: where you could just feed all of these people the
Speaker 4: sort of the sort of memory of the fear and
Speaker 4: the anger over like Asian people getting killed, and you
Speaker 4: could just lump that in with crime. And then these
Speaker 4: communities also and when I say these communities, it's it's
Speaker 4: kind of important here to do like class breakdowns here too,
Speaker 4: because the big part of what's happening here is an
Speaker 4: alignment that I think, like if the Republicans could be
Speaker 4: like fifteen percent less racist or figure out how to
Speaker 4: channel the racism against one target at a time, a
Speaker 4: lot of these people would have fucking fled right in
Speaker 4: the first place, because.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so I was gonna say, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: It's like rich people, professionals and like small business owners.
Speaker 4: It's like, well, yeah, of course those people are like
Speaker 4: unbelievably sort of turbo hardline reaction areas. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: those are the guys who are like shooting at people
Speaker 4: from the rooftops and fucking la and ID two. Yeah,
Speaker 4: like these same people in China, like in Taiwan, in
Speaker 4: Hong Kong, like these are people that if you were
Speaker 4: on the left, you would just be fighting every day.
Speaker 4: But you know, they kind of had been lumped into
Speaker 4: the Democratic Party because of the just unbelievable racism from
Speaker 4: the Republicans. Now the sort of crime panic stuff has
Speaker 4: finally given them this thing where the Republican deal is
Speaker 4: basically like okay, if you're if you're okay with sort
Speaker 4: of being anti black with us, if you're okay with
Speaker 4: massive expansions of police presence, you're okay with us running
Speaker 4: on that right and also on anti homeless politics. That's
Speaker 4: been a huge, extremely effective thing Chicili among yeah, business owners.
Speaker 5: I remember, God, I think.
Speaker 4: I've told the story on air, But back when I
Speaker 4: was in Chicago, there was this library in Chinatown that
Speaker 4: I used to like, you know, it was it was
Speaker 4: an extra a bunch of shops, and so you could
Speaker 4: sort of you could get bakery food, and you could
Speaker 4: go sit at these benches. And I came back to
Speaker 4: them in twenty twenty and the benches literally had had
Speaker 4: a thing drilled into the table threatening to arrest you
Speaker 4: if you sat at them for too long a right,
Speaker 4: and this is this is.
Speaker 5: Like twenty twenty, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know that the sort of anti homelessness
Speaker 4: stuff had started really really early there, and it's just hideous.
Speaker 5: And you know, these places are swung to the right.
Speaker 4: They're electing Republicans, and they're doing it because this kind
Speaker 4: of like Asian American petit bourgeois like small business class
Speaker 4: and some of the sort of richer tech people, et cetera,
Speaker 4: et cetera, are swinging really really hard to the right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, that actually connected so many dots for me.
Speaker 2: Like first of all, like even to like the anti
Speaker 2: homeless thing, like you know, you start seeing that weird
Speaker 2: middle of.
Speaker 3: The bench arm rail, yep.
Speaker 2: You know, like, well it's like that's so you won't
Speaker 2: lay on it. You know, that's that's why you did this.
Speaker 2: But like, I hope what I'm about to say is
Speaker 2: not a trope, you know what I'm saying, It's just
Speaker 2: it's because of like the proximity that I've had with
Speaker 2: the Asian community in the sense that my stepmom's Filipino.
Speaker 2: You know, all the DJs I've all worked with, all
Speaker 2: these just hip hop. At some point in the nineties,
Speaker 2: the Filipinos took over. Yep, I'm saying so like that's
Speaker 2: been a lot of ways our community. But I found that,
Speaker 2: you know, the like proper Asian in the jungle Asian
Speaker 2: thing where it's like pending on your relationship with the
Speaker 2: United States is almost even if you identify as Asian,
Speaker 2: because you sit down ten Filipinos, like half of them
Speaker 2: going to stay a Pacific islander. You know, the other
Speaker 2: have gonna say it Asian, the other Avic gonna say hey,
Speaker 2: Asian Pacific islander. And then and then my lord Cambodia
Speaker 2: right next to them, who are all in Long Beach
Speaker 2: and their crips, you know what I'm saying. So like
Speaker 2: that sort of world like they were with us, you know,
Speaker 2: as far as like they were just a part of
Speaker 2: our community, whereas the sort of northern kind of proper
Speaker 2: Asian world, like its cities is like Alhambra, Monie Roy Park,
Speaker 2: this is very California stuff.
Speaker 3: But they stuck to themselves, you know, and they they
Speaker 3: saw a lot of the.
Speaker 2: American things like this is pragmatic, like we're here to win,
Speaker 2: like you know, Like so when you started having the
Speaker 2: Asian hate thing like it it's almost like now that
Speaker 2: you say it, it's like we just tied that community
Speaker 2: up into a bow and then handed them to the right.
Speaker 2: Because this all happened at the same time as like
Speaker 2: the the anti affirmative action yep, you know.
Speaker 4: So I do want to say in the antiffirmative action stuff,
Speaker 4: because I think people mischaracterize what's going on with that
Speaker 4: Asian Americans as a whole and as subgroups support affirmative action, yes,
Speaker 4: very consistently. Every time they're polls, there's like sixty percent
Speaker 4: support for it, right, Yeah, but there's like forty percent
Speaker 4: of these fucking dipshits who are like, yes, I don't know,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm like my sort of like classic age
Speaker 4: response to this is like I fucking did it. I
Speaker 4: was a terrible student. I fuck I got into the
Speaker 4: University of Chicago. Like you didn't take a fucking study harder,
Speaker 4: Like you're you're not the reason. The reason you're not
Speaker 4: getting into these universities isn't because like black people are
Speaker 4: being allowed in. It's because you suck, like fucking skill issue, what.
Speaker 5: The fuck is wrong?
Speaker 3: Really?
Speaker 5: Yeah, but like like there's there was this like class.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the sort of class and I was
Speaker 2: gonna get to is this class distinction in the sense
Speaker 2: that from a black perspective, it was like, Yo, we
Speaker 2: rallied for y'all over the like stop Asian hate thing,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And then to come back
Speaker 2: around and see this again from a class perspective because
Speaker 2: kind of the same thing happened in a lot of
Speaker 2: ways in the black community. Because the reasoning as you
Speaker 2: say that. That's why I say it all makes sense.
Speaker 2: The reasoning is the same, Like the system is not
Speaker 2: for me, so I'm just gonna get mine. Damn the community,
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, Like, I'm just gonna go
Speaker 2: get mine, you know. And so in the again, in
Speaker 2: the black community, for those that swung right, it was
Speaker 2: just like like in some senses, they're like.
Speaker 3: Well, why no, y'all are fucking racists, like you know
Speaker 3: what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So I'd like as far as like the rights, like
Speaker 2: I know you are with the left, it was more like,
Speaker 2: you're just gaslighting me. So well, if you're just gonna
Speaker 2: gaslight me and I already know that you hate me,
Speaker 2: well fuck it, I'm just gonna get mine, you know.
Speaker 3: And that becomes the thing.
Speaker 2: But as a community, like you said, you know, in
Speaker 2: the same way, as far as like the beef between
Speaker 2: like the you know, the historical la riots like Chinese
Speaker 2: and Korean communities, while their parents were on this on
Speaker 2: the roofs of their of their shops shooting at us,
Speaker 2: they kids was breaking into the city.
Speaker 3: They was with us like that, breaking into the same
Speaker 3: stories we was breaking into, you know.
Speaker 2: So that that class distinction was something that made us
Speaker 2: kind of be like, bro, like, don't you understand you'll
Speaker 2: never be one of them, They'll never really love you,
Speaker 2: you know. And I feel like even that sort of
Speaker 2: like appeal would lurch this group even further to be like,
Speaker 2: don't tell me who you are, don't tell me where
Speaker 2: they're They're giving me what I need, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 2: like I never thought about tying all that together and
Speaker 2: being that it being like a specific a Chinese lurching.
Speaker 3: Wow. I never thought of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And okay, you know, you know what else sells
Speaker 4: products that are from China.
Speaker 5: It's these products and services support the podcast.
Speaker 2: We sell products from China.
Speaker 5: And we're back.
Speaker 4: So I think that there's one more thing I want
Speaker 4: to make sure I get to about the Chinese American
Speaker 4: stuff before we move on. And that's one of the
Speaker 4: things you kind of brought up earlier, was the insolarity,
Speaker 4: because part of what's going on here too is that
Speaker 4: there's a lot of Chinese immigrants and people who, you know,
Speaker 4: you get communities there speaking like they're uspeaking like kenzaneseor Mandarin,
Speaker 4: and in a lot of cases it's like you'll get
Speaker 4: these very very small, tight knit communities with people who
Speaker 4: are speaking like the provincial dialect that's like semi incomprehensible
Speaker 4: to other people, right, because it's like effectively its own language.
Speaker 4: And one of the problems here, and this is one
Speaker 4: of the places where the left shit the bed like
Speaker 4: wasn't doing a good organizing, right, And the consequence of
Speaker 4: this is that in these a lot of the things
Speaker 4: that we're getting put out in these spaces, the media
Speaker 4: is all.
Speaker 5: Unbelievably right wing.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, there's Miles Guah who whatever, God, like twelve
Speaker 4: years from now when I finished the lab leak episode,
Speaker 4: Wich is gonna be He's gonna be. A big part
Speaker 4: of this was he was this Chinese billionaire who defected
Speaker 4: to the US and came here and ran one trillion
Speaker 4: scams and is currently going to prison for Like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure he was the guy whose boat Steve
Speaker 4: Bannon was on when Steve Bannon got arrested by the
Speaker 4: Post office cops.
Speaker 3: So like this varsity level guy, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Like he was here.
Speaker 4: He was issuing passports from like a fake government in
Speaker 4: exile that he set up. He's running every scam in
Speaker 4: the entire world. But he's also you know, he's also
Speaker 4: one of the people who started the whole Lablique thing
Speaker 4: and he so he was flooding the like all all
Speaker 4: the sort of Chinese language media with this hardline right
Speaker 4: wing sort of pro Republican, hardline anti China stuff.
Speaker 5: And then you have a very similar thing.
Speaker 4: Coming from the Phone Gong, who are sking everywhere in
Speaker 4: any every China town, there's Fallen Gong guys everywhere.
Speaker 5: They're posted.
Speaker 4: There are people so there are cult they run shn Yu,
Speaker 4: they run a newspaper called The Epoch Times, which is
Speaker 4: just a pure fascist propaganda outlet, and those things kind
Speaker 4: of just like devoured the entire Chinese language media ecosystem.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't good before because like there were also
Speaker 4: a bunch of other weird wing groups. Like part of
Speaker 4: the problem here too is it's possible for in sort
Speaker 4: of Asian American community for you to have two people who,
Speaker 4: in by American standards, have identical politics, right, they're identically
Speaker 4: right wing on things like racial politics, and they're like
Speaker 4: edi crime stuff, you know, who are incredibly sexist and
Speaker 4: like houblophobic, but they absolutely fucking hate each other because
Speaker 4: one of them is a pro CCP Chinese nationalist and
Speaker 4: one of them is an anti CCP Chinese nationalists.
Speaker 3: Wow yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: But this this kind of like you know, what's been
Speaker 4: able to kind of weld that shit together is is
Speaker 4: this sort of like republican anti black, off on crime
Speaker 4: campaign combined with all of this sort of media sphere stuff.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's Shade's Rebellion all over again. Like
Speaker 2: just that at least you're not them, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: And and yeah, like the simplicity of that right wing
Speaker 2: message of just like here's all your problems, all your
Speaker 2: problems are those fools, and I'll just get rid of them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and we can solve this with more cops and
Speaker 5: Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: We just solve it war. Yeah yeah. Man.
Speaker 2: So for my end, I looked at the black and
Speaker 2: Latino vote. I can run through the black one pretty
Speaker 2: quick because it wasn't as interesting of a story and
Speaker 2: also because you know, we did an episode with Garrison
Speaker 2: Hayes from Mother Jones on like black conservatives and Trump voters.
Speaker 2: And I think ultimately it comes down to the fact
Speaker 2: of like the Frans for anand thought of like, okay,
Speaker 2: what is what is liberation? Like what is freedom And
Speaker 2: is it, you know, my ability to flourish without any
Speaker 2: hindrances or is it a collective ending of suffering?
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So like, in other words, it's like this, this plantation
Speaker 2: would be better if I ran the big house rather
Speaker 2: than being like, burn the fucking big house down because
Speaker 2: there shouldn't be slavery, you know I'm saying, so like
Speaker 2: that sort of approach to again the reality of why know,
Speaker 2: the systems not for me in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: That's what's interesting about the understanding of this. So when
Speaker 2: you would look at somebody like a black person, like
Speaker 2: why would you vote for this racist man? And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: the same reason I will vote for every other racist man,
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, Like, which find me one
Speaker 2: that ain't you know, So like that attitude is already there,
Speaker 2: so you know, obviously all of us would push back
Speaker 2: and say that like, well, you choosing yourself is also
Speaker 2: a vote against yourself and is destroying your community. Clearly
Speaker 2: it's never worked at some point, you know, which I'm
Speaker 2: sure y'all can relate to. It's like I feel two
Speaker 2: ways when I see like black people, specifically black men
Speaker 2: sit at this table because I'm like, I can imagine
Speaker 2: the first joke that you kind of let slide that
Speaker 2: was like, I was kind.
Speaker 3: Of weird, but I don't know, it's no big deal.
Speaker 3: I'll get over it.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe they didn't mean it, you know. And then
Speaker 2: that joke gets more and more intense, and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you sitting in a room and they
Speaker 2: cracking jokes about Haitians eating pets and that Puerto Rico's
Speaker 2: a track, you know what I'm saying. It's like it
Speaker 2: didn't start there. It started with you accepting and just
Speaker 2: being like all lightening up, and at some point somebody
Speaker 2: said something to you and you made a face and
Speaker 2: they went, dude, just it's a joke.
Speaker 3: Man, it's a joke. Come on, bro, you know me.
Speaker 2: You know me right, you've had that, you know I'm saying,
Speaker 2: and I know that happened a year ago, and now
Speaker 2: look at you. You know, so like eventually, the point
Speaker 2: I'm making is like, at some point you are going
Speaker 2: to have to lay down all of your identifying factors
Speaker 2: to be able to stay at this table. And I
Speaker 2: hope that I hope that thirty year fixed mortgage was
Speaker 2: worth it, you know. So the black story is that
Speaker 2: it's like, what is going to get us the financial
Speaker 2: or get me specifically minds the financial freedom that the
Speaker 2: Democrats kept promising but never gave to us. But that's,
Speaker 2: like I said, that's a much less interesting story, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, than the Latino vote, which we could.
Speaker 3: Talk about after it is break.
Speaker 2: All right, so we're back now sixty four percent right
Speaker 2: of air quotes, Latinos voted right wing this year. Now
Speaker 2: I feel like this, well, I don't feel like I
Speaker 2: know this needs a lot of unpacking, because first of all,
Speaker 2: what the hell is the Latino right is the first
Speaker 2: question that you have to ask, And essentially I find
Speaker 2: I figure, I think I've come to the fact that
Speaker 2: what America means by that is you were colonized by Spain,
Speaker 2: so in some way you kind of speak somewhat Spanish,
Speaker 2: unless it's Brazil, in which case you were colonized by
Speaker 2: the Portuguese right. So it's like you don't even know
Speaker 2: what you mean, Like y'all don't even know what you mean.
Speaker 4: It's sort of it's staggering that, like one of our
Speaker 4: primary demographic categories was invented by a coalition of like
Speaker 4: Maoists and like Vietnamese merchist Leninist that fell apart immediately
Speaker 4: the moment that trying to invade Vietnam. And that's only
Speaker 4: our second most incoherent democratic category.
Speaker 3: It's completely incoherent.
Speaker 2: Right, So you have exactly you have my wife, my
Speaker 2: life partner, who is born in La but she is
Speaker 2: a first gen She grew up in southern Mexico.
Speaker 3: She is first gen Mexican.
Speaker 2: But she's like, I identify as indigenous and it's and it's true.
Speaker 2: She is like, even when we did the DNA test,
Speaker 2: if you believe in that stuff, She's like, but you
Speaker 2: could just look at her and I'm like, you're incing,
Speaker 2: like you know what I'm saying, Just I'm just you're
Speaker 2: looking at.
Speaker 3: Her, and she's like, yeah, you're right, Like we are.
Speaker 2: Overwhelmingly vast majority of her DNA is indigenous. So for her,
Speaker 2: if you check a demographic box, it's like are you
Speaker 2: are you Hispanic? She's like, why would I identify with
Speaker 2: the colonizer? So no, I'm not Hispanic, Like they're the colonizer, right,
Speaker 2: Whereas you ask a Puerto Rican or a Cuban or
Speaker 2: Dominican they say Hispanic, but they just mean it differently.
Speaker 2: One because the island was called It's Fanola, I'm saying,
Speaker 2: so like they just mean something totally different. And Dominicans
Speaker 2: as black as hell, yo said, And then what about
Speaker 2: a Cuban. The way that they relate to America is
Speaker 2: also incredibly different, especially because of like you know, I'm
Speaker 2: pretty sure y'all y'all room knows, is if you could
Speaker 2: touch dry ground, right, And that really just had to
Speaker 2: do with the fact that we just ain't fuck with Castro.
Speaker 2: So the way that they relate to even immigration is
Speaker 2: completely different because if you could make it to the soy,
Speaker 2: if you go back to Florida, you're a citizen. So
Speaker 2: they just didn't go through the same things that people
Speaker 2: from Central and South America went through to be able
Speaker 2: to become a citizen. And on top of all that, California,
Speaker 2: Arizona and Texas is Mexico, so like so some of
Speaker 2: them ain't immigrants. They was here, like the border move
Speaker 2: didn't the border to border across US. So you put
Speaker 2: all that together mixed with a group of people who
Speaker 2: might be nice generation Mexican that people that don't speak Spanish,
Speaker 2: they're no samples that you call it like, well't even
Speaker 2: speak Spanish, you know what I'm saying that, Like you
Speaker 2: love all these people who speak so many different languages
Speaker 2: and have so many different understandings of who they are,
Speaker 2: and you just call them Latino and then you get
Speaker 2: this number. But if you're willing to accept the absurdity
Speaker 2: of it, then then we could talk about the actual,
Speaker 2: Like what actually happened here and what you find are
Speaker 2: two things that are seem so reductive. But as you
Speaker 2: look at the exit polls and even like interviews that
Speaker 2: I actual that I personally conducted. If you set aside
Speaker 2: the person that has been just cooked by just the
Speaker 2: right wing information, like set that person aside, that is
Speaker 2: just you've just your brain's been cooked. Like you set
Speaker 2: that aside, and you look at this, there are two
Speaker 2: very reductive things that just continue to just be true.
Speaker 2: One is, Latin America is very religious. It's still Catholic,
Speaker 2: and machismo is a big part of their culture. And
Speaker 2: it just it seems so reductive, but it's but it's
Speaker 2: what happened. You know, this is still a very patriarchal culture.
Speaker 2: And you know, as anecdotal and as running joke as
Speaker 2: it is that like if you have a Latina daughter
Speaker 2: and she's bringing because again they're very traditional. That's why
Speaker 2: I'm saying I'm using cisgender things. It's like you bring
Speaker 2: a boy over your grandma, all your theas are watching,
Speaker 2: you make him a plate. You have to go over
Speaker 2: there and make him a plate and sit it in
Speaker 2: front of him, or you going to be judged. This
Speaker 2: is just the culture, you know, so it's no surprise
Speaker 2: that that is not going to play into how you
Speaker 2: vote right. And then secondly, the religious thing in the
Speaker 2: sense that like this actually like really blew my mind.
Speaker 2: And a couple interviews I had I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: to specifically Latina women cause I was like, it just
Speaker 2: seemed as though there was just a triple layer of
Speaker 2: shit you'd have to swallow to be able to go
Speaker 2: this route right, And my main question was like what
Speaker 2: was the non negotiable and was there a line that
Speaker 2: Trump and by extension, the Republican Party could cross, Like
Speaker 2: where's the where's the line?
Speaker 3: What is the too far line? Right?
Speaker 2: And they landed on a few things. It was crazy,
Speaker 2: like after talking to three different women, they all kind
Speaker 2: of landed on the same things.
Speaker 3: It was abortion, right.
Speaker 2: They were like, at the end of the day, this
Speaker 2: is untenable, and to which I pushed back where I
Speaker 2: was like, well, Trump's not anti abortion, And what they
Speaker 2: all said was like, we could deal with the sixteen
Speaker 2: week like I could deal with the sixteen week thing, obviously,
Speaker 2: because again they are women and they're not completely pilled.
Speaker 2: They're like, we understand that there are situations that happened,
Speaker 2: right that just are untenable. And then the next thing
Speaker 2: that they said was like, which was the part that
Speaker 2: like really just kept putting my brain in a pretzel,
Speaker 2: was we are really big on anti sex trafficking and
Speaker 2: the idea for us on this knowing that like, okay,
Speaker 2: so the right wing stole that, like they don't believe it.
Speaker 2: They stole that concept and they wrapped everything around it. Right,
Speaker 2: But one of them mentioned how she couldn't vote for
Speaker 2: Hillary because she heard rumors about child stuff and she's
Speaker 2: I mean, she's referring to pizzagate, you.
Speaker 5: Know, yeah, yeah, it's just cute shit.
Speaker 2: Of which I was able to push back to be like,
Speaker 2: well that was you know, it was debunked, like and
Speaker 2: she was like, I just don't want to I just
Speaker 2: don't like.
Speaker 3: I just don't like how they move.
Speaker 2: I don't trust Bill and how he behaved in the
Speaker 2: Oval office.
Speaker 3: And it's like you're looking around, like are.
Speaker 5: You They weren't both on that played.
Speaker 4: I'm like.
Speaker 2: She even said, she was like, but the Epstein thing,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, well, they're all I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't understand.
Speaker 2: I don't understand how you don't see this connection, right,
Speaker 2: And to which they both said, oh, no, we see it.
Speaker 2: You're again. Find me someone that's not nasty, is their answer.
Speaker 2: Find me someone that's not corrupt, Find me someone that's
Speaker 2: not nasty. At least he's gonna save the babies, was
Speaker 2: the thing. And then the next question I had about
Speaker 2: them was the anti immigration thing, the borders, right, and
Speaker 2: we're talking to people who are one in two, some
Speaker 2: of them three generations removed. And one of them gave
Speaker 2: me an example of a family members in law who
Speaker 2: got deported fifty years old, got deported from something they
Speaker 2: did when they were nineteen. He's like, it's tough, like
Speaker 2: this was a hard working man who's done his best,
Speaker 2: who you know, has has done everything they could and
Speaker 2: it's got it. So I asked her like, Yo, do
Speaker 2: you think that so, do you think that that's unfair? No,
Speaker 2: she was like, our family waited in line, Our family
Speaker 2: did everything they needed to do. We fought. We came
Speaker 2: to this same thing. We came to this country because
Speaker 2: we believed in the dream and we fought for it,
Speaker 2: you know, and we and we did it right, you know. Obviously,
Speaker 2: like with the Mexican like sort of like work ethic
Speaker 2: of like no excuses, just work. We can't stand for
Speaker 2: no cheaters. We don't believe in stuff like that. You
Speaker 2: have to work for yours right, and we come here.
Speaker 2: There's no cuts in front of the lines, there's no shortcuts.
Speaker 2: You do the work right and if you cheat, you
Speaker 2: go to the back of the line.
Speaker 3: That's just what it is.
Speaker 2: So she's like, he's talking about criminals. I'm not a criminal.
Speaker 2: He's talking about criminals. You know, that's not me. I'm
Speaker 2: I'm a hard working citizen, you know. So that sort
Speaker 2: of mindset, and then she said, at the end of
Speaker 2: the day.
Speaker 3: We came for the dream. I'm here to work, you know.
Speaker 2: And if I put in the work, if my family
Speaker 2: puts into work, we succeed. That's what this country's for.
Speaker 2: You're fucking it up for all of us. You cheating
Speaker 2: the system is fucking it up for all of us.
Speaker 2: And so that sort of like I can swallow the
Speaker 2: racist shit because I don't give a fuck about you anyway,
Speaker 2: because I already know you don't give a fuck about me.
Speaker 2: I'm just here to get mine. So for them, at
Speaker 2: least according to the way they're explaining it is like
Speaker 2: the prejudice line is not a line they worried about.
Speaker 2: That's something I've already accepted, you know. But what is
Speaker 2: a line is oddly enough, treatment of women and the
Speaker 2: treatment of children and the ability to flourish. And then
Speaker 2: lastly for the men, it's what we know, like just
Speaker 2: the Mano sphears cooked our kids, just cook them, you know.
Speaker 2: And it dovetailed so well into the Latino machismo and
Speaker 2: even on the black shit. Like I knew we were
Speaker 2: in trouble when the hood niggas was talking, was running
Speaker 2: around here saying they was gonna vote for Trump because
Speaker 2: it's because they understand it. It's like you either get
Speaker 2: on or get out. Like I'm here, I'm gonna get
Speaker 2: with my You either form me or against me.
Speaker 3: This is what we're doing.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, right, I'm gonna let you
Speaker 2: be you know, as as derogatory as this is, like,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna let you be a man. You go fight
Speaker 2: what you gonna fight, and the Democrats are gonna turn
Speaker 2: your sons and the daughters. I don't rob like that's
Speaker 2: the that's the thought, you know what I'm saying. It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: well well fuck it, let's just get ours.
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: That simplicity of a message. It just resonated while you
Speaker 2: have which didn't bother me, but you have somebody like
Speaker 2: Obama coming in there like somebody's uncle.
Speaker 3: Basically like you young.
Speaker 2: Niggas need to turn, pull up your pants, stop acting
Speaker 2: like thugs, and get in line.
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: It's like, all right, okay, uh you know, to me,
Speaker 2: I don't bother me because I'm like, well, yeah, you're
Speaker 2: somebody's uncle, like you are that oh of course that's
Speaker 2: how you talk, you know. But the street dudes, it's like, look, man,
Speaker 2: I don't need this, like I don't need this Harvard
Speaker 2: grad like pretty ass like rich nigga to tell me
Speaker 2: what it's like. You was never out you weren't out here,
Speaker 2: you weren't in the trenches. You know what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: Like you're a millionaire, I don't like you. You barely
Speaker 2: want to oh because you can hoop, Oh because you
Speaker 2: like basketball. You one of us, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So I just think that that like you've already got yours,
Speaker 2: so let me get mine. Is like, at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, was so appealing to this particular demographic
Speaker 2: and it just made sense.
Speaker 3: So that's why they voted that way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think there's there's sort of like angles
Speaker 4: of this too that connect with what was going on
Speaker 4: with with Dasian Americans, so partially, also the religion angle
Speaker 4: is a thing that isn't talked about enough and also
Speaker 4: isn't talked about enough with Asian Americans, like particularly Chinese Americans.
Speaker 5: There's a whole bunch of how do I explain this
Speaker 5: in a way that.
Speaker 4: You know, the sort of like zeal of a convert shit,
Speaker 4: where like the first generation converts are the most nuts. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so that's like a huge portion of like Chinese Christians
Speaker 4: or these like first generation evangelical converts, and so you
Speaker 4: get these just like really terrifying, like ferociously right wing
Speaker 4: stuff that there's just kind of like just kind of
Speaker 4: eats everything around it. And I think the second part is,
Speaker 4: I think it's an interesting distinction here too, because I
Speaker 4: think there's like a kind of differing parts of the
Speaker 4: storysness of the kind of like we came here to
Speaker 4: work thing, because that was the Asian American thing from
Speaker 4: maybe twenty years ago, and the last ten years and
Speaker 4: especially post twenty twenty has been people realizing that it's
Speaker 4: not real, yeah, and that you know, you work, you work,
Speaker 4: you work, you work, and this is this is actually
Speaker 4: also funny enough, exact same thing happening in China, with
Speaker 4: sort of different political results because it's less it's you know,
Speaker 4: we're not dealing with ye, like the same kind of
Speaker 4: sort of immigrant culture stuff. But the Chinese American version
Speaker 4: of this was like, Okay, we need to figure out
Speaker 4: who to blame for this, and they were like, well, yeah, okay,
Speaker 4: it's because of like all of this crime shit, because
Speaker 4: like people are going to prison for one million years,
Speaker 4: and like I see a black person and there's like
Speaker 4: a homeless person who I have to like walk past
Speaker 4: every day. This is the reason why like our fucking
Speaker 4: dream died and that was a really sort of appealing
Speaker 4: message people. And it's the same kind of thing with
Speaker 4: the people who went for the affirmative action stuff, where
Speaker 4: it was like the people who you know are like
Speaker 4: in all seriousness, like we're running into kind of like
Speaker 4: oh no, there actually is a sort of wall that
Speaker 4: you hit, yeah, where it doesn't matter how hard you work,
Speaker 4: like there's only so many spots at the university. There's
Speaker 4: only so many totally, you know, there's only so much
Speaker 4: so far you can go. And hitting that wall drove
Speaker 4: a bunch of people, right.
Speaker 2: You make a good point, you know, And and I'm
Speaker 2: I imagine the same sort of reaction to that within
Speaker 2: the Chinese communit He's gonna be the same with ours,
Speaker 2: where it's like, okay, you gont learn that you are
Speaker 2: not welcome to that table. You know, they will always
Speaker 2: choose themselves. And you know you could dress yourself up,
Speaker 2: you know, and just to the degree for which you
Speaker 2: can alter all identifying factors for us, it's like to
Speaker 2: the degree for which you can remove your blackness is
Speaker 2: to the degree for which you're welcomed in this table.
Speaker 2: But at some point you can't take it off, it
Speaker 2: all rub off, you know, dress your kids up. You know,
Speaker 2: that was like for us with respectability politics, like teach
Speaker 2: your kids just speak proper English and dress them up
Speaker 2: and don't let them wear hoodies. Okay, good luck, you know,
Speaker 2: like Jay Z's seminal work. Look, OJ said, I'm not black,
Speaker 2: I'm OJ Okay, Like you know, it's just yeah, they
Speaker 2: will never accept you. The world you're trying to get
Speaker 2: into will never accept you. And this step towards trying
Speaker 2: to be accepted by this world is working against you
Speaker 2: and everyone else behind you.
Speaker 3: You know. But this is America. You can vote whatever
Speaker 3: you want to vote well.
Speaker 4: And I think twenty twenty, like for us, was that
Speaker 4: moment right where like, you know, everyone kind of got
Speaker 4: knocked out of the you know, whichever way you sort
Speaker 4: of fragmented politically, it is like that's when we got
Speaker 4: knocked out of the sort of obamam multiracial dream. Was
Speaker 4: when you realize that, like all of this fucking progress
Speaker 4: you made isn't going to stop people from killing you
Speaker 4: in the street. Yes, And the reaction to that was like,
Speaker 4: and I saw this on the left where like a
Speaker 4: bunch of people basically splintered off and became like hardline
Speaker 4: Chinese nationalists because they were afraid and they were like, Okay, well,
Speaker 4: you know, here's this thing that we have, this like
Speaker 4: strong state that will protect us, and we just have
Speaker 4: to fight for it. Here it's like, well that didn't work, right,
Speaker 4: you know. And then you have a lot of other
Speaker 4: people who started to recognize that this wasn't going to
Speaker 4: happen right, that like the thing that they had bought
Speaker 4: into was a lie. But the part of it that
Speaker 4: they believed, they were just like, well, okay, if we
Speaker 4: can just like fucking get the black people out of
Speaker 4: here and like we can get the cops in, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, we can go back to living in our
Speaker 4: fucking fantasy world.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And that's been just the sort of dominant response to it.
Speaker 4: And I don't know, it's bleak, but it's it's not
Speaker 4: something that can't be overcome, but it's gonna require, like,
Speaker 4: it's going to require organizing, and it's going to require
Speaker 4: the left to not be about fucking making white people
Speaker 4: feel more anti imperialist, which has been what fucking politics
Speaker 4: ortation Americans has been. And until that shake at Sheddison's
Speaker 4: like you're gonna keep seeing this shit accelerate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, has there been any if the right term
Speaker 2: is like vision casting among this community, because like I
Speaker 2: say that to say, albeit a very small, very small
Speaker 2: fraction of voices, but among some of the black thinkers,
Speaker 2: is like a serious consideration of pursuing like creating a
Speaker 2: third party of just like like but let's like take
Speaker 2: it serious this time, like for real, for real. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like there's you know, it's like I said,
Speaker 2: it's very small and like obviously, like my grandchildren will
Speaker 2: probably be the ones to see any sort of beginnings
Speaker 2: of that actually taking route. But it's still like, you know,
Speaker 2: people are some of the things that are being talked
Speaker 2: about right now, Like we just did like really like
Speaker 2: really consider it.
Speaker 3: Is there anything like that going on?
Speaker 5: No, like, and this is this Alcio.
Speaker 4: Part of the problem is that like the Asian American
Speaker 4: intellectual class is like one of the most bankrupt classes
Speaker 4: in the entire country. There's nothing, it's a wasteland out there.
Speaker 4: Like it's oh my god, yeah, like it's it's so bad.
Speaker 4: It's it's like all of the art and the media,
Speaker 4: the culture and the sort of analysis is all I've
Speaker 4: talked about in this show a decent amount, but it's
Speaker 4: all wrapped up in this sort of like oh, you
Speaker 4: two can like integrate and become a small business owner.
Speaker 4: And those people, you know, the people who believe that
Speaker 4: and people who did that don't actually have any interesting ideas.
Speaker 5: Yeah they have.
Speaker 4: They have the incredibly narrow ideas of their class and
Speaker 4: the incredible narrow idea, incredibly narrow ideas that their class
Speaker 4: are completely useless for the sort.
Speaker 5: Of task we have ahead of us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's kind of working for them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's working for them. It's just said,
Speaker 5: it isn't working for anyone else exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And like god, like I don't know, like the
Speaker 4: people who are supposed to be like Wesley Yang, who
Speaker 4: was supposed to be like the great sort of like
Speaker 4: new Asian intellectual is now this just completely cooked, right,
Speaker 4: Winger Like some of some of the people have been
Speaker 4: like turning on some of the like the big podcasters
Speaker 4: have been like turning on trans people, and I'm just like, well,
Speaker 4: fuck all you guys eat shit basically, So yeah, it's
Speaker 4: it's the situation's bad. It's also the fragmentation is so
Speaker 4: powerful because you're dealing with so many kinds of like
Speaker 4: linguistic lions and lines between people who've been here for
Speaker 4: ten generations and people who just like walk off the
Speaker 4: boat yesterday. There's you know, and so the fragmentation I
Speaker 4: think helps prevent a more coherent sphere.
Speaker 5: But like it's it's bleak out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, obviously, like the Black queer community
Speaker 2: is obviously incredibly vibrant and strong and organized, and you know,
Speaker 2: at least from the part of the intersection that I'm
Speaker 2: a part of, you know, the voice coming out of
Speaker 2: that that space of like a lot of times of
Speaker 2: like very much prophetic and like, you know, very much
Speaker 2: like truth telling that you hear from. Again, like you know,
Speaker 2: black queer community is like from our perspective, they continue
Speaker 2: to be like five steps ahead of us, yeah, you
Speaker 2: know of like where we need to go as as
Speaker 2: a as a people.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was like the sex worker Orgs for us.
Speaker 4: But then because this is another thing with Left just
Speaker 4: kind of hit the bed right, Like this is a
Speaker 4: thing with Bernie where Bernie voted for SIS to foster, right,
Speaker 4: and there's never been a reckoning about that at all. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And so you know, like the stuff that could have
Speaker 4: come out of that just kind of never did and
Speaker 4: we never got the kind of integration and the kind
Speaker 4: of politics that we could have had if people had
Speaker 4: been like five percent, well not five so they would
Speaker 4: would require.
Speaker 5: Them to move their positions a bit.
Speaker 4: But like people had actually cared about sex workers, we
Speaker 4: wouldn't be here right now.
Speaker 3: But you told a different story. Yeah, yeah, well that
Speaker 3: was informative. This has been.
Speaker 2: Uh, I don't know how do I how do we
Speaker 2: describe what this has been? Well?
Speaker 4: Miya, you know I think I close to this right,
Speaker 4: Like this situation isn't hopeless. Yeah, right, there's there's been
Speaker 4: a lot of good, tenanted organizing going on, Like there's
Speaker 4: a lot of kinds of stuff that can and do work.
Speaker 4: It's knows to the grindstone time, right, it is time
Speaker 4: to lock in, time to organize, and these communities can
Speaker 4: be organized.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we just haven't yet.
Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, to your point, like for me,
Speaker 2: like all information is helpful, like like if somebody's lying
Speaker 2: to you, like it's it's good information to know that
Speaker 2: this person thinks that that's something worth lying about.
Speaker 3: You know, like you just you.
Speaker 2: Just told me something about yourself that the fact that
Speaker 2: you think that that's worth lying about. So I say
Speaker 2: all that to say this understanding a better understanding of
Speaker 2: like it's hard to reason reason with somebody when they're hungry,
Speaker 2: you know, so just a better understanding of what are
Speaker 2: these communities actually prioritize, what do they actually value? And obviously,
Speaker 2: like you know, the dims and unfortunately even the left
Speaker 2: was just like just swinging a miss. Guys, Like this
Speaker 2: type of thing, like you said, is not hopeless. It's like,
Speaker 2: now there's an understanding of like, okay, so you value
Speaker 2: the hustle. All right, well let me tell you in
Speaker 2: the ways for which the choice you just made is
Speaker 2: working against your hustle, you know, like or now now here,
Speaker 2: here are ways for which you can like you said
Speaker 2: no to the grind and accomplish these goals in a
Speaker 2: way that's not so detrimental to the people around you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm with it. Like I'm not hopeless either.
Speaker 2: I think that we just need to think about the word,
Speaker 2: our word choice and what hills we willing to die
Speaker 2: on and be like this is what we met when
Speaker 2: we said this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it could happen.
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