1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio. In two thousand and nine, Amanda Knox 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: was sentenced to twenty six years in prison for a 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: crime she didn't commit. You probably remember her case. Amanda 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: was a foreign exchange student in Perugia, Italy in two 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: thousand and seven when her roommate Meredith Kercher was raped 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: and murdered. Despite a lack of physical evidence linking her 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: to the crime, Knox spent almost a decade of her 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: life stuck in the maze of the Italian criminal justice system. 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox is thirty three now and lives in Seattle. 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: Last year, she and her husband launched a podcast called Labyrinths. 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: In December, they put out a special episode to mark 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: the release from prison of Meredith Kircher's actual killer, Rudy Gaday. 14 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for being here on this labyrinth with me. 15 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: Should he have gotten a life sentence, I don't think so. 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 2: I would not wish an unreasonably harsh sentence on anyone. 17 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: I would wish them only true rehabilitation. Gooday's lawyers say 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: he's well along that path. Maybe so, But I do 19 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: know one thing. So long as he refuses to admit 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: his crimes to show true regret, I will continue to 21 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 2: unjustly bear his infamy, be held accountable for the Kircher's grief, 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: be shamed for not showing remorse for good Day's crime. 23 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: He could end all that in a second. 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox knows what it's like to be stuck inside 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: someone else's preconception of you. 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: So the work that I'm doing now is I'm a podcaster, 27 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist. I very often, especially in my journalism 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: and focusing on on criminal justice issues, not just wrongful 29 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: conviction issues, but more broad criminal justice issues. I'm on 30 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: the board of the Frederick Douglass Project, which is working 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 2: to build bridges between the incarcerated population and the non 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: incarcerated population. So I'm deeply interested in that divide. But 33 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: my podcast work, and Labyrinths being the podcast that I've 34 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: devoted so much energy and love into this past year, 35 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: is about how people navigate being lost. We just had 36 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: a twelve episode season that concluded on January first with 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: an interview with LeVar Burton, which was super fun and. 38 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: You discussed what with him. For example, we. 39 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: Talked about his career and how he could have done 40 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: a lot of different things, how he was on the 41 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: path to becoming a Catholic priest except that this one 42 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: thing happened, and then he very well could have gone 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: into politics except that this thing happened. So we had 44 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: this really fun and we actually had a lot of 45 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: fun with that episode because Chris and I decided to 46 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: become super nerdy and go sci fi, and we created 47 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: alternate dimensions where like we talked to Catholic priest LeVar 48 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 2: Burtons and politician LeVar Burton. 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: He's so talented. 50 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a sweetheart. He was so nice. 51 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: But we cover a lot of ground in the in 52 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: the season, and we go from anywhere from like super 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: super dramatic stories, like we interviewed Samantha Geimer, who was 54 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: the fourteen year old girl who was raped by Roman Polanski. Yeah, 55 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: and how like interestingly speaking of you know, people using 56 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: individual human beings like worst experiences of their lives as 57 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: entertainment that they're entitled to and as a profit making machine. 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 3: Like that was her story. 59 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: And she didn't react the way or didn't want the 60 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: things that people expected a rape victim to want, and 61 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: so they vilified her because she actually wanted some kind 62 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: of amicable result with Polanski, and they themselves found ambicable 63 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: resolutions behind closed doors, while the rest of society was 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: still trying to churn up this like victim and villain narrative. 65 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: What's the name of the podcast Labyrinths Labyrinths. 66 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: There's actually a really awesome comic that was drawn and 67 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: came out shortly after I got out of prison, which 68 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: showed me escaping the labyrinth of the Italian criminal justice system, 69 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: and I felt that that was a really beautiful metaphor. 70 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: And what I've found is that not only is my 71 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: own case, you know, it's remarkable and unique in a 72 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 2: lot of ways, but it's also totally not remarkable and 73 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: unique in the sense that it has all the telltale 74 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: signs of wrongful convictions that happen here in the United States. 75 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: But also like the feeling of going through that experience 76 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: of being lost and feeling like there's this overpowering force 77 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: that's like you can't actually navigate and you're sort of 78 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: like on this journey and you don't know how it's 79 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: going to end. That's an experience that lots of people have. 80 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: I remember going back to school and taking a poetry class, 81 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: and there was a girl in my poetry class who 82 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: was really clicking with my poetry. And I wasn't, you know, 83 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: writing explicitly like I'm Amanda Knox. I was in prison 84 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: for crime I didn't commit. It was more just like 85 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: very emotional. And eventually one day she figured out who 86 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: I was and she said, oh my god, you're Amanda Knox. 87 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, no, Like what Google rabbit 88 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: hole has she gone down now? And instead she said, no, No, 89 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: you don't understand. I was gang raped when I was sixteen, 90 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 2: and the feeling of what you went through feels like 91 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: what I went through when I was gang raped at sixteen. 92 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 3: And I was like wow. 93 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: So the fact that like I sit in this very 94 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: weird position where I'm a not very usual wrongfully convicted 95 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: person in what way, Well, I'm female, for one thing. 96 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: Who's usually wrongfully convicted. 97 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: People who are usually wrongfully convicted tend to be, especially 98 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: in this country, tend to be young men from impoverished 99 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: backgrounds and young men of color. 100 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: And that's because they can't afford a good defense. 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 3: I mean, that's part of it. 102 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: There's also a lot of biases that go into it. 103 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: There's a lot of sort of hysteria around youth culture, 104 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: like even just issues with like gangs. That's an issue 105 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: where it's like, you know, a lot of people don't 106 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: understand that kids just by virtue of living in a 107 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: neighborhood are sort of associated with gangs, even if they 108 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: have never committed a crime. And so suddenly you're like 109 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: in a gang book and you're identifiable as a gang member. 110 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: But that's only because you happen to live in that neighborhood, 111 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: and you happen to associate with a number of people 112 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: who also live in that neighborhood. You know, those kinds 113 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 2: of things. But the major thing is that the criminal 114 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: justice system is a system that was built by men 115 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: for men, because the vast majority of people who are 116 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: committing crimes are men, and for someone like me to 117 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: be put through the criminal justice system as a defendant 118 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: is highly unusual. I come from a middle class background, 119 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: I come from an educated background. I have no history 120 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: of you know, behavioral problems or anything like that. Like 121 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: I'm usually what I mean, actually, usually the victims of 122 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: crimes also happen to be young men of color. But generally, 123 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: when you think of someone like me the media presents 124 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: someone like me as a crime victim, and for me 125 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: to be in a position of being able to both 126 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: sympathize with what it is like to be a young 127 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: woman who is victimized by a man, and to be 128 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: able to sympathize with the experience of young men who 129 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: are being put through this incrediblely unfair criminal justice process 130 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: that puts me in a unique position to like build bridges, 131 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: and I kind of view my work as bridge building 132 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 2: as like acknowledging the complex humanity of people on both 133 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: sides of the equation and being able to bring nuance 134 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: back into the true crime genre, which I tend to 135 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: feel has been more dominated by scandalous, salacious, black and 136 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: white presentations of stories as opposed to more complicated ones. 137 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: And a lot of times, like a lot of people 138 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: reach out to me thinking that I am going to 139 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: be able to understand their humanity in a way that 140 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: other people just don't or refuse to, and so a 141 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 2: lot of the stories that I end up talking about 142 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 2: are just people who've reached out to me. 143 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: So you're not somebody who people are coming to you 144 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: and going I need you to fix this for me. 145 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: I mean a lot of people reach out to me 146 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: asking me to fix things for them, But the truth 147 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: of the matter is, I'm not a lawyer, So like 148 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: a lot of the people who would love for me 149 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: to be able to do something about some one's case, 150 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: like I usually end up being the person who like 151 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: directs them towards the Innocence project that is like closest 152 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: to their location. What I end up doing is I 153 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: try to give a voice to the people who have 154 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: felt like their voice has been stolen from them. And 155 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: once again, it isn't necessarily someone who's been wrongfully convicted. 156 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Did you come out of this experience when you finally 157 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: were free, did you come out of this with some 158 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: divine ability to tell who's telling the truth and who isn't. 159 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: No, I don't think anyone has that ability. No, they don't, 160 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: absolutely not. I think that what it gave me was 161 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: a perspective that I wouldn't have had otherwise, but also 162 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: a sensitivity to when I view people as being scapegoated, 163 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: whether they did something or not. I am very sensitive 164 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: to when people become ideas of people and not actual people, 165 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: and I can see that happening on a day to 166 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: day basis. 167 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: What was the most consistent idea that you represented the people. 168 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: That Foxynoxy was a drug adult, sexually promiscuous young woman 169 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: who manipulates men to do her bidding. Like there's this 170 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: idea of I think there was also this sense of 171 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,479 Speaker 2: like female jealousy that was imbued in me. So basically 172 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: everything that is stereotypically bad about being a woman was 173 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: sort of put on me. I was made to be 174 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: this like jealous, sexually promiscuous, manipulative, druggy woman, and I 175 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: came to embody that in the minds of people. And 176 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: on the other hand, I also was, you know, portrayed 177 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: as this like saint like damsel in distress, and even 178 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: in the courtroom, people were, you know, presenting me as like, 179 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: on the one hand, she has the face of an angel, 180 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: on the other hand, she's really like devil. And it 181 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 2: was like, how about I'm neither. I'm just a young 182 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 2: person who, like my roommate was murdered and I had 183 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: no idea what was going on. And everyone was speaking 184 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: an Italian really fast, and I had no idea what 185 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: was going on, and I got scared and here I am. 186 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: So how much time did you spend in the Italian 187 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: prison total four years. 188 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: My god, So from age twenty to twenty four, I 189 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: spent in a foreign prison. 190 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: And everybody in there with you was Italian. 191 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: Actually, the vast majority of the people who were in 192 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: there were either Nigerian or Roma. 193 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: Interesting. 194 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: I mean, there were plenty of Italians in there, and 195 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: a lot of them were very very poor Italian people 196 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: who had ties to the drug trade and stuff like that. 197 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: A lot and a lot of people in for drug offenses, 198 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: whether they were drug mules or drug dealers. 199 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, if you like crime drama where the defendant 200 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: is falsely accused, that listened to my conversation with filmmaker 201 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: Joe Berlinger. Berlinger directed the Paradise Lost series of documentaries 202 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: about the trial of the West Memphis three. 203 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 4: I mean, here you have allegedly a crime by three 204 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 4: teens who are not professional killers, who brought, according to 205 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 4: the prosecutor, three little boys out into the woods and 206 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 4: slaughtered them to death in this savage beating, and yet 207 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 4: there was no blood found at the crime scene. And 208 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 4: then you look at the confession, and the confession is 209 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 4: riddled with inconsistencies and problems coaching and coaching. So within 210 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: months we knew that something was amiss. 211 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: Hear more of my conversation with Joe Berlinger at Here's 212 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: the Thing dot Org. After the Break, Amanda Knox describes 213 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: the toll that her long wait for justice had on 214 00:12:52,720 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: her family. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's 215 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: the Thing. After her release from prison, Amanda Knox wrote 216 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: a memoir titled Waiting to be Heard. A few years later, 217 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: Netflix released a documentary called Simply Amanda Knox. However, she's 218 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: resisted offers to participate in a feature film based on 219 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: her experience. 220 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: I actually very much pushed back against that. I mean, 221 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: there's kind of a film that's sort of a narrative 222 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: version of it. 223 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: It's not worth watching. It's really bad. 224 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: I Mean, what I thought that the documentary did that 225 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: a film couldn't do was it allowed everyone to sort 226 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: of present their own thoughts in perspective about what happened. 227 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: And it didn't claim to be Like, it didn't have 228 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: a scene where I either kill or don't kill Meredith 229 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: Kircher right, Like the problem with having a film be 230 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: about it is you're making some sort of you're taking 231 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: some stance about reality that is built up of a 232 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: lot of claims of reality, but not necessarily reality, And 233 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: in a situation where so much judgment is attached to that, 234 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: I found that that was inevitably going to be flawed. 235 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: Whereas a documentary that genuinely allows everyone to portray what 236 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: they experienced and what they think about what. 237 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: They experienced and the facts as they know. 238 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: And the facts as they know them is going to 239 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: be closer to the truth and also is going to 240 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: present the crux of this issue, which is that people 241 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: are making claims about reality that they can't actually you know, 242 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: like sustain with evidence, what do we actually know? I 243 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: want to preserve this sense of like, well, you know, 244 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: the person who actually committed this crime, Rudy Gaudet, who 245 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: no one ever talks about, is not someone and who's 246 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: forthcoming with what actually happened. We have the evidence of 247 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: him at the crime scene, of him interacting with Meredith's 248 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: body and leaving his fingerprints and footprints in her blood. 249 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: We know that. 250 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: Do we have a camera on the wall where we 251 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: see him doing it or we're in his mind nor. 252 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: He confesses, right, And the imagine for you you want 253 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: to avoid that where they're going to leave it Gray 254 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: whether you really killed this girl or not. You know, 255 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: a feature film is always going to be like, well, 256 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, that's a fear I would have. 257 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 258 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: That's the unfortunate thing about true crime in general is 259 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: there is this sort of temptation to treat it fundamentally 260 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: as an entertainment product. And due to that, like the 261 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: thing that is most entertaining is when people can walk 262 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: away from the movie and just argue about it. You know, like, 263 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: if I feel this way about the case, you feel 264 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: that way about the case, and you know, now we 265 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: can argue about it because it's unclear. And I think 266 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: one of my big frustrations with my own case was 267 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: that the prosecution, first of all, but also just people 268 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: in general, always wanted to have this attitude of well, 269 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: the defense says this, and the prosecution says that, and 270 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: so you know, there must be some sort of truth 271 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: in between. Amanda must be guilty of something. We're not 272 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: quite sure what it is, but she must be guilty 273 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: of something. And that's actually like one of the major 274 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: reasons why I was retried and reconvicted. I don't know 275 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: if you knew that or maybe you followed that in 276 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: the documentary, but like in Italy, the double jeopardy laws 277 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: aren't the same. 278 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: And so when the. 279 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: Sort of whole forensic case against me came crashing down 280 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: after my acquittal, I was retried again but on behavioral evidence. 281 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: So basically the prosecution said, sure, we can't actually place 282 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: her at the crime scene, but she just. 283 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 3: Didn't act like an I was. 284 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, was just something like, we can't be totally wrong, 285 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: so like something's got to be there. And I was 286 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: reconvicted on that, like just on that sort of sense 287 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: that there must be something there. 288 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have the evidence yet, but we're going 289 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: to find it, trust me. 290 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, like there's some you know, I just got a 291 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: vibe and they bought that. And it wasn't until the 292 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: Supreme Court and I was on trial for eight years, 293 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: and it wasn't until the court swooped in and was like, 294 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: where's the evidence. 295 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: There's literally no evidence. 296 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: Explain to people who don't know what are the extradition 297 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: arrangements between Italy and the United States that they try 298 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: to have you extra died it because when you were 299 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: convicted again. 300 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: You didn't go back right. 301 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: So the way that it worked was that there is 302 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 2: an extradition treaty between the United States and Italy, and 303 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: so while I was in trial there, I was in prison, 304 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: and then I was acquitted and I was allowed to 305 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 2: go home, but I was still on trial, like they 306 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: still pursued a case against me, and I was retried 307 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 2: in absentia, so they had a whole trial without me 308 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: in Italy while I was here living in the United States. 309 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: And while that was going on, I was meeting with 310 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: lawyers here to see, depending on the outcome of this 311 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: new trial, do I want to make a case to 312 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: at least potentially serve my sentence here in the United 313 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: States so it's less of a burden on my family. 314 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: So here I am like trying to go to college 315 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: and go to school, but also making plans to potentially 316 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: turn myself into the cops in case there's a bad 317 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 2: outcome in this case, which there was, and I'm trying 318 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: to plan to how am I going to fight my 319 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: case in court here in the US, to just see 320 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: if I can try to serve a sentence here in 321 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: the US as opposed to being trucked all the way 322 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: back to Italy like that was my twenties. 323 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: That doesn't exist, so you can't serve your time in 324 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: the US for a crime in Italy. 325 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: Can you Well, the US has discretion over whether or 326 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 2: not it actually will fulfill that extradition treaty. It can 327 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: always say, you know what, I don't really care to 328 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: extradite her. 329 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 3: She's going to stay here in the US. 330 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 2: But because we want to appease the Italian justice system, 331 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: we're going to hold her here in the US. 332 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: She'll serve her sentence. 333 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: Really, I didn't know that. I went through a divorce 334 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: in California what's been re christened the Parents' Rights movement. 335 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: It was the father's rights movement. Women were favored so 336 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: clearly in courts about custody and so forth. And that's 337 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: slowly changing. But in an analysis that different organizations I 338 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: worked with did, California was ragged at the bottom of 339 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: men's rights. I mean, it was a really, really, really 340 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: because and that breaks down to basically two the haves 341 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: and the have nots. I was in court, and if 342 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: the guy that walks in the room is a gardener 343 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: and he's getting divorced from his wife, the divorce proceedings 344 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: are over in fifteen or twenty minutes. There's no money 345 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: for lawyers to mine and pump out of that situation. 346 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: If a famous whatever, actor, writer, musician, doesn't matter, government official, 347 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: if somebody prominent who was presumed to have the resources 348 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: comes into court, it's like this is a big business. 349 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: So they say to you, Alec Baldwin, your daughter who 350 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: back then she was five years old, she's on the 351 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: other side of this six foot concrete wall. Here's a 352 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: paper clip, start digging, and you're going to start digging 353 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: because if you're a normal human being who has a child, 354 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: you want to be with that child, you want to 355 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: parent that child. I know many people drop out and 356 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: they give up and they write it off and go, 357 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: I'm going to go start another family because they're so 358 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: abused by that system. And so abused was I by 359 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: that that I wrote a book. So I wasn't wrongfully 360 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: convicted of murder in an Italian courtroom. But I was 361 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: somebody who did everything they asked me to do, and 362 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: they just kept punishing me because they knew I was 363 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: going to keep coming. I'm wondering in your case, was 364 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: they're just this driving need for you to share with 365 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: other people what I went through and the lessons of 366 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: that and how you can avoid what I went through. 367 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: Was there some of that? 368 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I just want to say that 369 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry that you went through that. And I 370 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: was going to point out, like, you know exactly what 371 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: it's like to be made to be the center of 372 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: a morality play that people feel like they can just 373 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: you know, keep taking and like profiting from and profiting 374 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 2: from and profiting from. And I'm sure the tabloids have 375 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: their cut of the pie too, Like I get it, 376 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: Like it's easy to be made the villain of a story, 377 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: especially when you're on trial, especially when you're accused. Yeah, 378 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: like all of the sort of prejudices and stereotypes that 379 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 2: we associate with people, but we don't say in polite company. 380 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: As soon as you're accused of something and you're in court, 381 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: like everyone feels comfortable bringing those stereotypes and prejudices to 382 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: the table, like it's no, it's always now we're allowed 383 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: to say she's a whore right now? 384 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: When you went to prison, what was the. 385 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 2: Sentence The first time I was convicted, I was sentenced 386 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: to twenty six years, And when I was reconvicted and resentenced, 387 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 2: I was sentenced to twenty eight and a half years. 388 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: But to your point previously. I think that especially when 389 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about someone like you being in court for 390 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: not you know, a murder, right, like, this is a 391 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: situation where it's and I think it points to the 392 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: fact that, like, this issue is not just about wrongful convictions. 393 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: It's broader than that. It's about judgment. It's about mob 394 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: mentality and mob profit off of an individual human being, 395 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: and it's about the dehumanization of individual human beings for profit. 396 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: That is something that has repercussions, not just in wrongful 397 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: convictions cases where like the stakes are highest because you 398 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: know the prosecutor ultimate. 399 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: Cancel culture, right, the ultimate cancelation. Yes, you're going to 400 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: go to prison for twenty eight and a half years for. 401 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 3: A crime you did not commit. 402 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it 403 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: to yourself. Tell the world and be sure to subscribe 404 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 405 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 406 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: Amanda talks about returning to Italy for the first time 407 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: since her release. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 408 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. When Amanda Knox was released after four 409 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: years in prison. She returned to Seattle. It took time 410 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: for her to rebuild her life. Last year, on February 411 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: twenty ninth, she married writer Christopher Robinson. 412 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: He's a novelist, he has two master's degrees in poetry. 413 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 3: He's but you know, he's my partner DNA expert. Yeah no, no, no, 414 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 3: not at all. In fact, nothing to do with that. 415 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: No, if anything, I've sort of like dragged him into 416 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: this world and that he you know, didn't really have 417 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: that much of a perspective on He was just like 418 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 2: a philosophy poetry guy. But we have a really great 419 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: dynamic because of that, because you know, he he can 420 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 2: bring his sort of analytical self. I bring my emotional, 421 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: experiential self, and then we put that together into what 422 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: we hope is a really complex, nuanced, heartfelt, you know 423 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 2: journey that we put people on to your experience with 424 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: paparazzi is something that you know, one of the things 425 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: that people would tell me when I came home was 426 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: they would say things like, I feel really bad for 427 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 2: you because it's not like you're a celebrity, it's not 428 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 2: like you asked for it. You just get you know, 429 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: people chasing you down the street. 430 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 3: Do they do that to you now today? 431 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: No? But when I first came home, and for many 432 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: many men months afterwards, and actually the entire time, I 433 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: was still on trial, so like I was still in 434 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: I was in freedom for four years, but still on trial. 435 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: Like any time something happened with the case, there would 436 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: be people outside of my apartment building. 437 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: But that's subsided now. 438 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: Yes, it's all finished. 439 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: Now the Supreme Court in Italy definitively acquitted me in 440 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen. 441 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 3: So it's over. 442 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: Like it's over in the sense that I was definitively acquitted. 443 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: It's not over in the sense that, like my entire 444 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 2: life and identity is now associated with a crime that 445 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: I didn't commit, that is still an ongoing reality. 446 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: Do you feel that way? Do you go places and 447 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: do you? I mean not now? Maybe it's died down 448 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: and where you live is it's home, and maybe you 449 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: fitted and people are much more, you know, kind of 450 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: polite toward you if you will. But I mean, I'll 451 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: walk into restaurants and you just see that look in 452 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: people's eyes. Someone's eating with a crowd of people. They 453 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: smack the person next to them, they look at you, 454 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: they look at them, they talk, everyone huddles up, they lie, 455 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: and then all of them look at you at the 456 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: same time. Five heads go slap. Then they'll come back 457 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: into the home and start laughing. And you are this 458 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: fodder for them in this kind of gossipy, tabloidy way. 459 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 2: Well again, you're an idea of a person, right like 460 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 2: they've had you as an idea of a person in 461 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 2: their mind this whole time. And the way that I 462 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: feel when I'm moving through the world is that I 463 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 2: have this sort of doppelgang or version of me that 464 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: sort of stands in front of me, and everywhere I go, 465 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: I see people seeing her, and I have no idea 466 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 2: what they're actually seeing because what the vision of me 467 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: that they're actually seeing was constructed out of probably just 468 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,239 Speaker 2: a lot of media, but what media and who? And like, 469 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 2: you know, what are the things that they are projecting 470 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: onto the name and face Amanda Knox or Foxy Noxy. 471 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: You know, there's a sense of sort of entitlement because 472 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 2: we are not, like I don't think our brains are 473 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: even really well adapted to understand that a human being 474 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: that we've seen but never encountered is a real human being. 475 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: Like back in you know, hunter gatherer days, if you 476 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: ever heard of a human being who you had never 477 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: actually met before in your real life, they were a god. 478 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: Like that's that's the only person that you would ever 479 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: have heard of that you've never encountered on day to 480 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: day life. 481 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: And the king would be a god. 482 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 2: And so this like idea of a person is actually 483 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: something that is very difficult for people to like genuinely understand. 484 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: So I don't know if that's you know, something that 485 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: can help you process or you know, console yourself or 486 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: find peace. Is like we actually, generally our brains are 487 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: really really bad at understanding that a human being that 488 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: we've heard of but never encountered before is a human 489 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: being like I am. 490 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: I always tell people the worst thing in life is 491 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: to be misunderstood. Like I'll sit there and say, kind 492 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: of only people really knew who I was. I just 493 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: don't feel to think people you know what we do, 494 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: and you know my wife and I what we do 495 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,479 Speaker 1: philanthropically and all those silly things that you wind up 496 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: having to resist, the desire to point your finger that 497 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: underline that when I do this, and here's. 498 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 3: Another thing, you know, I'm a human being. Look, there 499 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 3: are multiple sides of me. 500 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: But that's the trap that you lunge in that way 501 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: and you start to advertise, and you start to respond 502 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: and say to people, well, I'm really this great guy, 503 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: and you don't get me. You get deeper in the 504 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: quicksand unfortunately when you do that. But my point is 505 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: is that in your case, you're wrongfully convicted. But there 506 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: are people who do these crimes. Someone killed Meredith Kercher. 507 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: His name is Rudy Gaday. He was actually recently released 508 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: from prison. 509 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: He was I mean, without getting into any ugly details, 510 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: can you share with us just one moment of when 511 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: you really, really when you were in prison and you 512 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: just hit rock bottom and you thought, what the am 513 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: I gonna do? What was that feeling like for you 514 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: as a person who didn't belong there. 515 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a number of moments that come to mind. Unfortunately, 516 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: So first of all, I should describe what was the 517 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: default setting. The default setting for me in prison was 518 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: I had like I had been the sort of like cheerful, 519 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: just like having a good life kind of person, and 520 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: my new emotional default setting was reset to sad. Oh, 521 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: so I woke up sad, I lived through the day sad. 522 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 2: I went to bed sad, and that was just like 523 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: my new emotional default setting. 524 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 525 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: And I just sort of like lived that and I 526 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 2: became numb to it, even like I was just sad 527 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 2: and that. 528 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 3: Was just normal. 529 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: What an amazing answer. 530 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: But on top of that, like there were moments where, 531 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: you know, depending on the various places that we were 532 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: in the case, Like very shortly after I was convicted, 533 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: two years into my imprisonment, because it took that long 534 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: for the trial to go do its whole thing, my 535 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 2: dad came in to visitation and he had just had 536 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 2: like a conversation with the lawyers about potentially how long 537 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: it was going to take for the appeals process, and 538 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 2: you know, he had to share with me, you know, 539 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: maybe it's going to be you know, another several years. 540 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: It could be five years, it could be ten years. 541 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: We're not quite sure. And I at that moment, you know, 542 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 2: during my visitations, I would very very I tried very 543 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: very hard to be cheerful and to like have just 544 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 2: like this positive moment with my family members because those 545 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: moments were precious, right. 546 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want to upset my dad. I'm here wrongfully 547 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: convicted of murder, facing a twenty six year sentence in 548 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: an Italian prison. But you know, I really really don't 549 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: want to upset dad. 550 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: I don't want to upset Dad because it's like we 551 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: only have some we only have six hours a month 552 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: that we get to see each other. So like this 553 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 2: is my one hour with my dad, and I just 554 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: couldn't hold it together and I started sobbing. And then 555 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: I did the thing that is like the worst thing 556 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: that I did in prison, which is that I begged 557 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 2: my dad to save me, even though I knew that 558 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 2: he was doing everything he could already and there was 559 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: nothing more that he could do. 560 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: So you were saying to him, you got to get 561 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: me out of here. 562 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 3: I was like, please save me. 563 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: And what did he say? 564 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: I mean, he couldn't say anything. 565 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: He just started well, he started crying, and it was 566 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: the first time I'd ever seen my father cry. It 567 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 2: really really solidified for me how bad the situation was, 568 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: because I had never seen my dad cry before in 569 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: my entire life. 570 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Is that the point where you started to consider at 571 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: least that you weren't going to get. 572 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: Out of there absolutely, And you know, that was the 573 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: period of time where I was writing in my jour ernals, 574 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: trying to imagine what a worthwhile life would look like 575 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: if it took another five years, or another ten years, 576 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: or another twenty years, or if I got out as 577 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: an old woman, Like what was I going to do 578 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: to make my life worth living? So that was the 579 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: kind of things that I was thinking about as a 580 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: twenty two year old. 581 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: And when did the sun come out again and you 582 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: started to have hope that you were going to get 583 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth. 584 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: Well, like I said, I was afraid to hope all 585 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: the way leading up to my acquittal. 586 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: You were prepared for it to go the wrong way. 587 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: I was prepared for it to go the wrong way. 588 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: And the moment I was acquitted. 589 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: I lost it. 590 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: In fact, I lost it so hard that people who 591 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: were escorting me thought, like the police, thought that I 592 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: had misunderstood the verdict. 593 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 3: They were like trying to tell me, no, you got 594 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 3: to quit it, and I was like, I know. 595 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: And that was the moment of like, oh my god, 596 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 2: it's over. 597 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 3: And the great irony of that is that it wasn't over. 598 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: And I entered into a whole new version of this 599 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: labyrinth where I thought I had got out and yet 600 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: here's this yet another four years of labyrinth ahead of me. 601 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: And like the sort of true moment of feeling like 602 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: I'm no longer being hunted anymore was after I was 603 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: definitively acquitted by the Italian Supreme Court. Throughout my entire trial, 604 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 2: when everything was just getting worse and worse and worse, 605 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 2: I kept believing that it was inevitable that I was 606 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: going to be found innocent, because I was like, there's 607 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: just some horrible misunderstanding and eventually the truth is going 608 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: to come out. The jury's going to see through all 609 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: this bullshit that the prosecution is saying, and I'm going 610 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: to be released. So I was convinced the day that 611 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: I was convicted that I was going to be acquitted. 612 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: And then once that happened and the world turned upside 613 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: down and everything I thought was true about reality was 614 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 2: turned upside down. I no matter how good it was 615 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: getting throughout my acquittal, my appeals trial leading up to 616 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: my acquittal, I was afraid to hope because I couldn't 617 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: allow myself to be crushed again. And so even when 618 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: there was like big news that like, you know, the 619 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 2: independent experts are calling bullshit on all the prosecution's forensic evidence. 620 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: I was afraid to hope, yeah, because I knew that, 621 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: like I was innocent the first time, like what stopped 622 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 2: them from acquitting me, you know, last time. So like 623 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: for me, those are the hard moments. The sort of 624 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 2: true moment of feeling like I'm no longer being hunted 625 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: anymore was after I was definitively acquitted by the Italian 626 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 2: Supreme Court. And honestly, one of my first true experiences 627 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 2: was actually when I first met Chris. I was doing 628 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: arts correspondence for a local newspaper. He wrote his debut novel. 629 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: I reviewed it for the paper, I asked for an interview. 630 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: I interviewed him and his co author. They were two 631 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: best friends who wrote a novel together, and I had 632 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 2: this great experience interviewing. We drank Scotch, we watched Star Trek, 633 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: We wandered around the neighborhood into the night. And at 634 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 2: the end of like hanging out with these two guys 635 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: who I'd never met before, Gavin, his best friend and 636 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: co author, gave me this big bear hug and Chris 637 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: shook my hand and said we should be friends. And 638 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I can just make 639 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 2: friends with people again, Like I can just like meet 640 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 2: people and make friends now, Like I don't have to hide. 641 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: Anymore, have a normal life. 642 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: Right, and like, you know, my life is not normal, 643 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: But I was restored that that feeling that like I'm 644 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 2: no longer being hunted, I no longer have to fear 645 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 2: people that I don't know in the same way anymore. 646 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: Another thing that occurs to me about this is to 647 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: have Civics classes taught to teach people about what are 648 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: the things we need to do, one of which is 649 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: jury participation, in jury selection. To use your story as 650 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: a kind of a of a template here, Let's say 651 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: that girl, let's say she slept with everybody in the 652 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: Perugia phone directory. That doesn't make her a murderer. 653 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 3: Doesn't make her a murderery. 654 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I could have been a professional dominatrix and it 655 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 2: shouldn't have mattered because the evidence wasn't there. 656 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's what bothers me. 657 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 658 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 2: I actually think Civics would be really, really good to 659 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: teach in schools. And part of that civics course would 660 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: be not just your civic responsibilities, but also your rights. 661 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: So I didn't know what my rights were going into 662 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 2: the interrogation room. I didn't know how to recognize that 663 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 2: I was being interrogated as a suspect. They certainly didn't 664 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 2: tell me that. They certainly refused me a lawyer costing that. 665 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: So you know, like, so there are a million ways 666 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 2: that we are set up to be ignorant in the 667 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 2: face of these bigger societal structures that have enormous power 668 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: over our individual lives. And I think that it's an 669 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: atrocity that we aren't more empowered with the knowledge of 670 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 2: how we have power over those structures and also how 671 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: those structures have power over us. 672 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: I'm always filled with joky versions of this, but I 673 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: have this feeling like, you get out of prison, you 674 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: do the four plus years in prison, and you could 675 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: have been in prison for decades, and you get out. 676 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: How is your relationship with your parents now? Because it 677 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: was like my joke version, as you call your mom 678 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: and go, Mom, I really miss you. Can we have lunch? 679 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: And she's like, I'm sorry, baby, I have tennis tomorrow. 680 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: Where are you at with your parents now? 681 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 3: I mean we've always been super super close. 682 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 2: Can I talk about a joke though that I really 683 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 2: appreciated that first of all, I loved you on thirty Rock, 684 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 2: and one of the first nice jokes about me was 685 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: on thirty Rock that I encountered. Oh, good God, maybe 686 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: there's some nice jokes out there, But most of the 687 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 2: time I found when I first came out, that people 688 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: were making jokes at my expense, of course, And the 689 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 2: first time that I heard a joke that was not 690 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: at my expense was Kristin on thirty Rock saying it's 691 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 2: not hard to be famous. Amanda Knox is famous for 692 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 2: not killing someone, and that was like, Oh. 693 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 3: You can make a joke and not at my expense. 694 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,399 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Kristin Shaw. But things are good 695 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: with your family, absolutely, and they appreciate you and hold 696 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: you close because you could be over there right now, 697 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: in an alternate universe. You could be over there now, 698 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: just really really struggling. 699 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And their lives all came to a stop when 700 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 2: everything happened to me. So it's not like my life 701 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: was sort of trapped in a hole and theirs went on. 702 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: Like everyone in my family, their whole lives just came 703 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: to a stop. And this was especially difficult on my 704 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 2: younger sisters. I have three younger sisters and One of 705 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: them was eight years old at the time has happened, 706 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 2: another was thirteen, one was just going into college. Their 707 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: lives stopped, like everything all my entire family became about 708 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: saving Amanda. Save Amanda. And it was until I was 709 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 2: able to come home that we've all been able to 710 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 2: restart our lives. And of course we all live within 711 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,439 Speaker 2: walking distance of each other, and it's always been that way. 712 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: Have you been back to Italy? 713 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:12,720 Speaker 3: I have been back to Italy. 714 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,919 Speaker 2: So I was invited by the Italy Innocence Project, which 715 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 2: did not exist while I was in prison, to come 716 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 2: and speak at their first ever annual conference about trial 717 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 2: by Media. And I felt that, like, of all of 718 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: the ways to return to Italy, that was the best 719 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: way possible. Like, you know, I had struggled with the 720 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: idea of like how am I going to go back 721 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: and see the people who supported me and thank them 722 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 2: and like to try to do that process. And I 723 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 2: returned and the press called it, you know, Amanda's familiar 724 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: dance with the with the paparazzi, and it's like, actually, 725 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: I'm being assaulted by them, like I can't move because 726 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,919 Speaker 2: they're throwing themselves at me and my my partner, the country. 727 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: That originated the word paparazzi, by. 728 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: The way, yep, Yeah, that was a crazy experience. I 729 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 2: had many many good moments. 730 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: Were you scared to go there? Were you terrified to 731 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: go there? 732 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 3: I was absolutely scared to go there. 733 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: You're braver than I would never go back there again. Ever. 734 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 2: Well, Like the crazy thing is, these things happen everywhere, right, Like, 735 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 2: it's not like there's anywhere where you're safe from being judged, 736 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 2: you know, like misunderstood and misjudged and mistreated. 737 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: You're in as much danger here as you are in Peruja. Yeah. 738 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 2: The one difference being that like here in the US, 739 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: there's more of a nuanced sentiment towards me, whereas in 740 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: Italy there's more of a she's the oj Simpson of 741 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 2: Italy kind of thing. And I was surprised, Like the 742 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: big surprise that I had was when I gave my speech, 743 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 2: I was fully prepared to get arrested again, like to 744 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 2: like get shanked, get booed, like all of that. 745 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: Do you say shanked a prison term? You just put 746 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: a chill in my back to get shanked. What a 747 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: reveal that was? You really did do four years in prison? 748 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 3: Yeah shit. 749 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 2: I was surprised when people gave me a standing applause 750 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 2: for my talk, and granted, these are the kind of 751 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: people who are going to show up, who are interested 752 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 2: in criminal justice issues, who are interested in the Italy 753 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 2: Innocence Project, who are going to show up anyway, so 754 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 2: they I was a more accommodating audience, but I was not. 755 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 3: I was not ready for it. 756 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 2: Like I I remember like being whisked away because I 757 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 2: had have personal security while I was there, Like it was, 758 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 2: it was not an easy process, and this like personal 759 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 2: security guard sort of whisked me away down the stairs, 760 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 2: down the hallway in underground where I had this like 761 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: secret sort of underground dungeon bunker thing where I sort 762 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 2: of lived throughout. 763 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 3: The entire conference. 764 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: And as soon as we got down the stairs, he 765 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 2: gave me a little squeeze and said parfeto and I 766 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 2: just started bawling. And it was a really great moment 767 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 2: where I was like, Wow, maybe I'll be given a chance, 768 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 2: not even a second chance, like a chance. 769 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 3: In Italy. 770 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: Journalist, public speaker and podcaster Amanda Knox, I, I'm Alec Baldwin, 771 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, 772 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: Carrie Donahue, and Zach MacNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 773 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.