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Speaker 1: How about, Oh, here's something we can talk about. There's

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Speaker 1: an m I the asshole going around today. How do

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Speaker 1: you feel about music lessons for your children? Because this

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Speaker 1: woman said, am I the asshole? Because um, my daughter

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Speaker 1: is doing these recitals and my husband comes and my

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Speaker 1: mother in law shows up, and she just criticizes my

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Speaker 1: daughter after every performance. Here's what you did wrong. You

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Speaker 1: weren't that perfect today. This concert could have used a

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Speaker 1: lot of work. Like, she's really nasty about it, and

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Speaker 1: the kid runs away crying. Well, apparently the mother and

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Speaker 1: the mother in law already do not speak to each other.

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Speaker 1: And when the mother brings us up to her husband,

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Speaker 1: he's all, she's just trying to help, and you're just

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Speaker 1: using this this excuse to attack her and blah blah

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Speaker 1: blah um, even though, uh, this kid is like crying

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Speaker 1: over these reactions and it's really hurting her self esteem

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Speaker 1: and she's getting worse in her performances because she's more

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Speaker 1: self conscious about it, the mom says, and she's like,

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Speaker 1: and she says this whole time, my husband has told

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Speaker 1: me that these piano lessons are a waste of time

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Speaker 1: and money anyway, and that she should be doing more

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Speaker 1: practical things than learning music. Obviously, I'm totally on Mom's

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Speaker 1: side here. That is insane and horrible, but also, just

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Speaker 1: like people, you've got to learn each other before we

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Speaker 1: get married, People like you should be knowing things like

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Speaker 1: do you think that music lessons are a waste of time?

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Speaker 1: Or do you think that they're a valuable thing? Like

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Speaker 1: you don't need to ask that question directly, but I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's the kind of thing you would know

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Speaker 1: about someone through getting to know them. Maybe so yeah,

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Speaker 1: not that it couldn't be a surprise, but maybe he

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Speaker 1: just don't feel like paying for him that, Like he's

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Speaker 1: like in theory they were great, but now I'm actually

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Speaker 1: signing these checks and I feel like, maybe about this

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Speaker 1: in two weeks maybe yeah. Well, I will say that

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Speaker 1: I've rolled my eyes incredibly hard when I heard that

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Speaker 1: music lessons are not practical. There is so much research

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Speaker 1: out there that shows that if you study music, you're

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Speaker 1: do better in math, and you do better in like

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Speaker 1: many objects, because it challenges your brain in a very

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Speaker 1: good way, and it's interesting and cool and it makes

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Speaker 1: you appreciate music more later on. In anyway, art education

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Speaker 1: is practical and awesome and cool. So get yourselves together, people,

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Speaker 1: and also stop worrying from from childhood what skills you

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Speaker 1: can monetize later in life and which ones you can also?

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Speaker 1: Stop it, stop it. It's gonna be okay. If you

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Speaker 1: do have to monetize and think about the scholarships, you

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Speaker 1: have to think about the scholarship. But stop thinking about

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Speaker 1: the scholarship, stop thinking about money. I'm just trying to

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Speaker 1: meet this guy. I'm not trying to this is this

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Speaker 1: is you and me. You know, I'm out here being like,

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Speaker 1: stop yelling at my daughter. She's doing her best, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, shape up? Kid? What am I paying for

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Speaker 1: these classes for? You? Never gonna amount to anything? That's

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Speaker 1: so true. I just said, practically, I've already established the dynamic.

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Speaker 1: He can't go back. Slanderous? Do you faming me? Marriage

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Speaker 1: an all time strongest? Hey everybody, Hey, everyone, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the book. Today. It's a silly day. We've got a

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Speaker 1: silly episode, that's for sure, very true. Yeah, I'm very

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Speaker 1: excited to share this one with you. I hope everybody's

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Speaker 1: doing well. Yeah, man, it's warming up, isn't it just

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Speaker 1: to jump into the weather? Small talk? God? You know, well,

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Speaker 1: Georgia yeah, God, it's probably still snowing in Minnesota as

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Speaker 1: it is about to be twenty four hour sun sunlight

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Speaker 1: in like Norway or Iceland or something all right, pretty soon.

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Speaker 1: So I just saw that up there. They were like,

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Speaker 1: when are you coming to visit? I was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It seems cool in one way, like they're

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Speaker 1: showing pictures from you know, allegedly eleven PM and it's

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Speaker 1: like a sunset looking and it's pretty cool, But also

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Speaker 1: I feel like it would be very hard to get

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Speaker 1: like real sleep and feel rested. Yeah, I'll say I

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Speaker 1: am way more interested in the always night art than

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Speaker 1: the always day, always night is. Like, I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: a night person. So the idea that I could sleep

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Speaker 1: all night, get up and still spend all night being up,

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Speaker 1: that's awesome to me. Like I could stay up all

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Speaker 1: night play of video games and still get a full

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Speaker 1: night sleep. It sounds awesome to me. I don't I

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Speaker 1: think I might take a night, maybe not go outside

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Speaker 1: that much. Either way, I couldn't do it for more

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Speaker 1: than like, you know, a couple of weeks, but it

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Speaker 1: would be cool to experience. It would be cool to

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Speaker 1: experience kind of either war. But would be of course best.

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Speaker 1: Always day feels a little like severance, like purgatory hell

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, or it's just like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it's just slept for eight hours and it's still sunny,

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Speaker 1: and at the end of the day and it's still sunny.

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Speaker 1: That it's I don't know, that creeps me out more

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Speaker 1: than always dark. I don't know. Why did you see

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Speaker 1: a movie Insomnia? Yeah that's uh, but that's Christopher Nolan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I never saw it. I should see it. Kinding

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Speaker 1: mid Sumar. It was just like, it shouldn't be light

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Speaker 1: right now with all these horrible things happening, but like

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Speaker 1: it is bright daylight. Well, hope, good luck up there

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Speaker 1: for all you day dwellers. Tell us if you're Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if anyone who experiences twenty four hour daylight and nighttimes

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Speaker 1: is listening to this, that is what it's like. Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: I'm interested. We'd love to hear from you also, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know we say this at the end of the episode,

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Speaker 1: which is when I'll throw it at the beginning, like

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Speaker 1: jump on Apple podcast and throw us a review. If

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Speaker 1: you're having a good time on the show, we'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear from you. Um and uh, and it feels

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Speaker 1: good and it makes other people listen to the show too.

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Speaker 1: So you know, just since since everybody tunes out at

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Speaker 1: the end, I'm never listening by the end of the episode,

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Speaker 1: so why would you. I hope you stay for the

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Speaker 1: song Button. True, it is a great long at the

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Speaker 1: end for those who have never made it. Song Button. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but today is very exciting and very ridiculous. That's for

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Speaker 1: damn sure. Because hey, everybody, I want you to go

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Speaker 1: check on your silverware. God give you a minute. Go

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Speaker 1: to your drawer, take a look at your silverware. See

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Speaker 1: what the brands on it? Does it say Oneida? It

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Speaker 1: might because that was one of the most popular flatware

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Speaker 1: companies in the country. But did you know that that

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Speaker 1: silverware company started as a hyper religious sex cult. That

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Speaker 1: you didn't know that? What all your forks and spoons

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Speaker 1: were definitely brought about by a bunch of forking and spooning.

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Speaker 1: So this community, the Oneida community, was this weirdly progressive

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Speaker 1: sort of cult that believed in autonomy for women over

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Speaker 1: their bodies, and they encouraged sexual pleasure for women in particular,

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Speaker 1: and they owned upon traditional patriarchal marriages and community members

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Speaker 1: all shared and rotated through jobs. Everyone pitched in, everyone

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Speaker 1: was provided for. It sounds like kind of an amazing experience. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm in sign up sheet. Well, you know that we

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Speaker 1: can't have nice things in this country. So as all

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Speaker 1: things must come to an end, so did the Oneida community. Um.

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Speaker 1: They also had a little bit of a problem with eugenics. Yes, sorry,

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Speaker 1: but we have got to hear their full story here.

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Speaker 1: So let's there's nothing else to say. Let's just dive in.

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Speaker 1: I'm porking ready pay their French come listen. Well, Eli

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Speaker 1: and Diana got some stories to tell. There's no matchmaking,

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Speaker 1: a romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationships, a lover,

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Speaker 1: it might be any type of person at all. And

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Speaker 1: abstract concept are a concrete wall. But if there's a story,

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Speaker 1: were the second glance, we show ridiculous roll that's a production.

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Speaker 1: If I heart radio, okay, So John Humphrey noise is

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Speaker 1: our I don't want to say hero, but our main

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Speaker 1: character today. He was born in Brattleboro, Vermont, in eighteen eleven.

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Speaker 1: His family was well connected and influential. His cousin was

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Speaker 1: Rutherford B. Hayes, the nineteenth President of the United States.

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Speaker 1: Little trivia for all you Hayes heads out there. Uh.

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Speaker 1: John's father was a congressman who had graduated from Dartmouth,

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Speaker 1: and his mother was this deeply religious woman who raised

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Speaker 1: her children to quote fear the Lord. But John grew

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Speaker 1: up with really very little interest in religion. He actually

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Speaker 1: kind of had a lot of cynicism about it, probably

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Speaker 1: pressed a little too hard on him what it sounds

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Speaker 1: like from his mom. By the time he grew up

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Speaker 1: and was accepted to Dartmouth in eighteen six, John wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a lawyer. But in eighteen thirty one, just

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Speaker 1: as he was graduating, his mother came to him and

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Speaker 1: was like, Hey, I got you tickets to this really

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Speaker 1: fun party. I think you will love it. It's like

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Speaker 1: a four day festival. It sounds like so much fun.

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Speaker 1: All the cool kids will be there, you know, Dabbin

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Speaker 1: and Lawson do when their little TikTok's I'm a cool mom.

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Speaker 1: And John was like, parents, just don't understand, but he

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Speaker 1: agreed to go to the retreat. Well, it turns out

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Speaker 1: it was not a fire festival. There was a four

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Speaker 1: day revival meeting under the Ministry of Charles Finney. So

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Speaker 1: she trapped him at this religious and these meetings were

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Speaker 1: like big, multi day conventions that were super welcoming to

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Speaker 1: non Christians in an attempt to win them over. And

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Speaker 1: Charles Finney was this huge figure at the time. He's

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Speaker 1: been called the father of Revivalism. He was this flamboyant

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Speaker 1: Presbyterian preacher who believed that people had the free will

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Speaker 1: to choose salvation. Yeah. Finny was also super progressive. He

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Speaker 1: pushed for equal education for women and for black Americans,

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Speaker 1: and he was an aggressive abolitionist who refused to give

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Speaker 1: communion to slaveholders. Yeah, this guy sounds super cool, especially

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Speaker 1: after the time for a religious thing. You gotta this.

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Speaker 1: This was like mid nineteenth century. Uh, you've got the

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Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution coming up. I was reading that at this

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Speaker 1: point there was a lot of different smaller religious sects

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Speaker 1: popping up. A lot of people were going into some

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Speaker 1: really kookie directions with religion, especially um and you know,

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Speaker 1: with that came also some very sane and progressive directions

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Speaker 1: like you know, hey, maybe people or people and we

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Speaker 1: can treat each other with respect and civility and maybe

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Speaker 1: that's what the Bible says, Like, you know, it kind

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Speaker 1: of went in all directions. Yeah, so John grudgingly took

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Speaker 1: mom's little trip, and he probably sat there with his

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Speaker 1: arms folded, like thinking to himself that this whole thing

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Speaker 1: so stupid, mom, and so sick of religion, Like people

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Speaker 1: just take people just take religion, and they just use

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Speaker 1: it to convince people that whatever they think is true

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Speaker 1: is the truth. But I'm gonna be a lawyer, you know,

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Speaker 1: not like that. But um, but after this meeting, according

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Speaker 1: to New York History dot com, John got very very sick,

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Speaker 1: like this really bad cold, super intense fever. But he

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Speaker 1: got so sick that he actually thought that he was

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Speaker 1: going to die. And what do people who think they're

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Speaker 1: probably gonna die often do? They get to thinking pretty

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Speaker 1: hard about God and the afterlife and you know, what

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Speaker 1: their whole life was about and all these things. And

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Speaker 1: this was enough to totally flip John's circuits. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he spent all week with this like really charismatic preacher

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Speaker 1: telling him about God in the afterlife and choosing salvation

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Speaker 1: and choosing to give yourself over to the Lord and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. And then immediately after that he's on

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Speaker 1: death store. John is you know, automatically starts thinking like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this is a sign. Uh, God is

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Speaker 1: telling me listen to this guy or I'm going to

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Speaker 1: kill you. So he flips and all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: he found religion. His mom, you know, probably like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to gloat or anything, but you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you should listen to your mother next time. You

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Speaker 1: could have been like this your whole life. So John

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Speaker 1: went to Yale Divinity School after that and put all

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Speaker 1: his evil litigation dreams behind him and he devoted himself

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Speaker 1: to becoming a minister. And during his second year of school,

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Speaker 1: he tried to do some biblical math and figure out

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Speaker 1: when exactly Christ was doing his big comeback tour. So

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Speaker 1: he was like, if Jesus leaves Heaven for Earth at

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Speaker 1: six pm, going at the speed of God, and the

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Speaker 1: angels blow their trumpets at negative twelve decibels, don't care

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Speaker 1: the two self foresee times the square root of revelations,

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Speaker 1: then Blake and latterus Jesus has already come back. And

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Speaker 1: he thought that the second Coming of Christ had actually

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Speaker 1: taken place in seventy a d. So this basically meant

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Speaker 1: that we were not waiting around for Jesus to come

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Speaker 1: back and end of the world. Rather, it was up

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Speaker 1: to us to bring about Jesus's millennial Kingdom, which was

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Speaker 1: the thousand years where Christ would rule over a utopia

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Speaker 1: on earth. But John got really into this new idea

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Speaker 1: about salvation that he called perfectionism, and Finny had taught

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Speaker 1: a similar idea. The idea is that it is possible

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Speaker 1: to be totally free of sin within your life on earth. Now,

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Speaker 1: I was not raised Christian. I don't really understand Christianity

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Speaker 1: that well. I was not really released with any religion,

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Speaker 1: and they all confused me a great deal. Um. But

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Speaker 1: as I understand it, that's especially at this time, that

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Speaker 1: kind of went against a lot of the beliefs that

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Speaker 1: man is inherently sinful. If you repent of your sins

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Speaker 1: all your life by going to church and doing the

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Speaker 1: things that your preacher tells you to do to you

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Speaker 1: absolve yourself of all the bad things that you do.

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Speaker 1: Depending which sect you're in, that changes, but you have to.

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Speaker 1: It's inherently in you that you Wilson, and you're bad.

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Speaker 1: You're inherently bad as a human being. Perpetual maintenance thing

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Speaker 1: you've got to go through. Yeah, yeah, there's original sin

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Speaker 1: and all of us and there's nothing to be done

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Speaker 1: about that. You just have to accept Jesus into your heart,

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Speaker 1: and then when you die, you'll get to go to

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Speaker 1: heaven because he knows you didn't mean it. All the

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Speaker 1: sin that you were doing, I guess, but John, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody right into us and without without a diet tribe please. Um.

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Speaker 1: But John thought, no, there's actually a way to be

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Speaker 1: totally clear and free of all your sins. And he

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Speaker 1: was so into this that he said he was not

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Speaker 1: only totally free of sin, but that actually he was

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Speaker 1: at a point where he could not sin because he

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Speaker 1: had surrendered himself to God with a pure and perfect heart.

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Speaker 1: He even went so far as to say that he

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Speaker 1: had such a great relationship with God that he was

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Speaker 1: free of any moral obligations by society and he could

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Speaker 1: pretty much inherently do whatever he felt like. And if

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Speaker 1: I'm extrapolating correctly, I think that this means he felt like,

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Speaker 1: if I'm doing it, it's because God wants me to,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna do evil, terrible, sinful things because

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Speaker 1: God wouldn't have me do those things. Therefore, whatever I

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Speaker 1: do is kind of God's will. He declared himself as

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Speaker 1: perfect and totally sin free. You know, he's like I

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Speaker 1: am perfect. It has been said by God's most righteous

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Speaker 1: warrior me, therefore it must be true. And all of

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Speaker 1: this obviously started to irk his professors and his classmates

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Speaker 1: at Yale who did not believe this, and he was

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Speaker 1: actually denied his ordination so he not become a minister.

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Speaker 1: Some of them even branded him a heretic. But you

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Speaker 1: know what, whatever, who cares, He didn't need them. He

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Speaker 1: left school and he went on this tour of New

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Speaker 1: England trying to find disciples that would subscribe to his

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Speaker 1: radical new beliefs. And the first person he found was

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Speaker 1: Abigail Merwin. John was twenty two, Abigail was thirty, and

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Speaker 1: she was beautiful and talented and had a real way

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Speaker 1: with words that John knew was going to be helpful

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Speaker 1: to them in finding other converts, and after a few

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Speaker 1: months he was desperately in love with her. Together they

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Speaker 1: got involved at the New Haven Free Church and started

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Speaker 1: making moves there to develop their faith based on becoming

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Speaker 1: totally sin free. But then Johnny went down to New

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Speaker 1: York City and as is common when you go to

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Speaker 1: New York City, he had a mental breakdown. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: take long. I've had no less than five panic attacks

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Speaker 1: in New York at eat in my twelve trips. They're

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Speaker 1: probably in my lifetime. It's like so many carriages. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. He was stumbling around the grounds of New

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Speaker 1: York University and he looked up and he saw a

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Speaker 1: vision of Abigail standing on the roof of the building

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Speaker 1: in the stance of an angel. And he thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's so beautiful. This must be a sign. But then

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Speaker 1: he heard a voice say, John, are you there, John,

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Speaker 1: it's me God. Don't trust that lady. She's actually safe,

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Speaker 1: transformed into an angel of light. Damn. Okay, God laying

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Speaker 1: it out. Also, stop wearing your shoes in the house.

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Speaker 1: It's just you see the pitt you're stumbling in right now,

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Speaker 1: take them off at the door. Got at some sage advice.

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Speaker 1: Well that was enough for John, at least the first part.

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Speaker 1: He starts telling everybody about this vision that he had

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Speaker 1: of Abigail and of God telling him that she was

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Speaker 1: an agent of Satan and you know, there to disrupt

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Speaker 1: all his work. And it wasn't long before word of

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Speaker 1: this got back to Abigail and her brother in law,

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Speaker 1: Everard Benjamin, and so Everard rode down to New York

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Speaker 1: City to be like, what the hell is going on

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Speaker 1: with John? Hey? John, all right, buddy, come on, let's

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Speaker 1: get you home. Yeah, I think you've had enough New

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Speaker 1: York City for a while. And he put him in

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Speaker 1: a boat and they went back to Connecticut from there.

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Speaker 1: But later John found out that Abigail was actually on

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Speaker 1: that boat too, hiding from him. Now we can surmise

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Speaker 1: that this is probably Abigail like checking in on John.

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Speaker 1: She's like this guy like my boyfriend, and the guy

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Speaker 1: had been working with for a while now, said that

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Speaker 1: I'm Satan, and like there's something wrong, like he's sick

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Speaker 1: or something. He probably needs some help. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna go say hi to him he thinks I'm Satan,

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Speaker 1: but I want to be close and just trying, you know,

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Speaker 1: make sure he's okay. But John found out that she

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Speaker 1: was there and and hiding from him, and he took

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Speaker 1: that as like a confirmation that she was up to

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Speaker 1: no good, that she was part of some nefarious scheme.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's like king in the shadows of

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Speaker 1: the boat. Yeah, exactly. So like if you're you know,

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Speaker 1: if your friend thinks that you're trying to assassinate them.

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Speaker 1: You don't go, you know, peer in their windows at

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Speaker 1: night to make sure they're okay, because they're going to

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Speaker 1: see you and be like, oh my god, you're trying

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Speaker 1: to kill me, you know, yeah, exactly. So this, this

333
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,120
Speaker 1: was really bad for for their relationship, and he really

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Speaker 1: he really took it to its most extreme place. So

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Speaker 1: he tried to talk to her about this afterwards, after

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Speaker 1: kind of accusing her of being the devil, but he

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00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: was acting really crazy about it. Obviously, she was afraid

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Speaker 1: to talk to him, and eventually her father forbade John

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00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: from ever seeing her again. So John did any sane

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00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 1: person would do and just starts obsessively writing her letters,

341
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,120
Speaker 1: trying to get communication with her right and letter after

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00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: letters she would not respond. In fact, she had called

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Speaker 1: up an old boyfriend of hers named Merit Platt, which

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Speaker 1: is the most eighteen hundreds name I've ever read, so good,

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Speaker 1: and Abigail and Merritt Platt left New Haven and went

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Speaker 1: to Ithaca, New York together to get married far away

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Speaker 1: from John in his craziness. Well, John heard about this.

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Speaker 1: It's January eighteen thirty seven. He hears about this wedding

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Speaker 1: he's real mad that he didn't get an invite, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and he decided to march on foot from Kingston, New

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Speaker 1: York to Ithaca, which is a hundred and sixty five

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Speaker 1: miles and, according to Google Maps, a fifty four hour walk.

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Speaker 1: I would walk a hundred sixty wouldn't walk. On another momo,

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Speaker 1: he wrote the walk was quote for the purpose of,

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Speaker 1: on the one hand, starting the kingdom of God in

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Speaker 1: the center of New York State, and on the other

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Speaker 1: of pursuing and confronting Abigailmerwin, who had deserted her post

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Speaker 1: as my helper. So he's like, I'm not following you

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00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: to Ithaca because you married your ex boyfriend. I'm going

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Speaker 1: for super religious reasons because God told me to. And

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Speaker 1: you know, while I'm there, I guess I'll check in,

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00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 1: but it's it's a stretch. God just wants me to

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00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 1: conveniently go to exactly where you are to start this

364
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Speaker 1: whole kingdom. Well, surprisingly, Abigail did not see John stumble

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Speaker 1: into town and then kick her husband out and we're

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Speaker 1: on outside to throw her arms around him. What No,

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00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: In a shocking turn of events, she actually just didn't

368
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Speaker 1: want to have anything to do with her weird old stalker,

369
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Speaker 1: you don't say so? Surely totally unrelated to this woman

370
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: marrying her ex boyfriend. John started a publication called The

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Speaker 1: battle Axe, and its first article was all about how

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Speaker 1: dumb the institution of marriage was. He wrote, quote, when

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Speaker 1: the will of God is done on earth as it

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00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: is in Heaven, there will be no marriage. Exclusiveness, jealousy,

375
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Speaker 1: quarreling have no place at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

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Speaker 1: He also made it pretty clear that he felt that

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Speaker 1: he was God's agent on earth. So again, sort of

378
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: a prophet kind of vibe coming from Yeah, I was

379
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: gonna say as if he hadn't made that clear already, know,

380
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: but I guess he was, like, it's my paper to

381
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 1: put it right right out there for everybody. How it's going. Okay,

382
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: So John saying marriage is no good right, totally not

383
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Speaker 1: a cool thing, Well, then get this. A woman named

384
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Speaker 1: Harriet Holton caught wind of these articles in the publication

385
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: The battle Acts, and she was so fascinated by what

386
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: John was saying that she met with him and started

387
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: to fund John's work. She had a bunch of affluence

388
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: in her family too, and a ton of money and

389
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: She's just like, this is the guy I'm gonna start

390
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: funding his worth. They start hanging out, they partner up,

391
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: and when John finally started to get over Abigail, he

392
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: started to see Harriet as her replacement, and he went

393
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: to her and he said, basically, hey, uh so glad

394
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: you're interested in all my anti marriage writings. So what

395
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: do you say you and I get hitched? Huh, we

396
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: don't get married. I mean that just seems weird. Just

397
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: sit with that for a second. We're going to get

398
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: into what the hell he was thinking and how this

399
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: all turned into a big sex commune right after this

400
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 1: commercial break. Well, welcome back to the sex commune. I

401
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: guess alright, So here's the thing about this marriage that

402
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: John proposes to Harriet. This is John all over. Judy

403
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: Berman writes in a Gawker article that quote noise theology

404
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: tended to evolve in hilariously if also sometimes devastatingly self

405
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: serving ways, Like this guy John is like, oh, my

406
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: girlfriend ran off to marry her ex. Well, actually, you know,

407
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: when you look at the Bible, marriage is actually pretty dumb.

408
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: And then he meets this other girl who's totally into him,

409
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: and he's like actually, you know what, there's a way

410
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: that marriage makes a lot of sense. So he kind

411
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: of forms his ideas sort of based around whatever sort

412
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: of going on with him at the time. It seems like, well, again,

413
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: if he's thinking that, like I'm this perfect avatar of God,

414
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: then everything I do is right. Whatever I'm feeling like

415
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: I should do is what I should do. God's telling me,

416
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: or or some it's some it's God working through me.

417
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: It's just like him deciding that God wants him to

418
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: do this kingdom right where Abigail happened to be exactly.

419
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: It all matches a little conveniently, but you can see

420
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: why he would talk himself into that. But he made

421
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: it very clear to Harriet that this was different from

422
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: a usual marriage. This was going to be a spiritual marriage,

423
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: even though there would be plenty of physical aspects to it,

424
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: and that the whole purpose of their marriage was to

425
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: advance the work of God in which they were engaged. Also,

426
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: people were saying, the rumors were spreading that in John's

427
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: little religious movement here, celibacy was a big thing, and

428
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: John wanted to get it plain and clear through people's

429
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: pants that that was not his deal. He said you

430
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: can definitely fuck in my church. I want everyone to

431
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: know that owners welcome, yes, because it was you know,

432
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: that would have kept people out for sure. Sure, but

433
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: it's also an interesting little peek into how people put

434
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: marriage and sex together. We because he was only saying

435
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: no marriage, but they were immediately like, well, that must

436
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: mean celibacy exactly, and John really wanted to separate those things.

437
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: He was also totally open and honest about the fact

438
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: that the financials didn't hurt. And again, Harriet had a

439
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: lot of affluence. She was the granddaughter of the Lieutenant

440
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: governor of Vermont, and after they got married, she helped

441
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: him by a printing press and a house. Pretty dope,

442
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: like just one of those things, and I'll tell you

443
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: it's not the printing grass. Anyway, they started, they started

444
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: putting out a publication called The Witness, and then he

445
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: helped two of his closest followers, Mary, his two sisters,

446
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: who also got interested in his teaching. And then he

447
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: got his younger brother involved, and eventually he even talked

448
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: his mom into joining. And she wasn't too keen on

449
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 1: his teaching styles, but he probably was like gave her

450
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: the old I'm like this because of you mom Fire festival,

451
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: and eventually she relented and got involved. And so anyway

452
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: that they begat and begat everybody, bring your friends, you know,

453
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: tell everybody that can come out here is we can

454
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: have sex. Marriage is like not that they we're not

455
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: even worried about it. You know, you can definitely funk

456
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: at this church. Tell him that first. Tell him number one,

457
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: it's not celibate. Really got to change that branding. The

458
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: priority is. So by the mid eighteen forties, this little

459
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: group called the Putney Bible School had about thirty seven members,

460
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: and in eighty eight they moved to Oneida, New York,

461
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 1: where they formed a little commune and they lived in

462
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: three houses, ran two farms, worshiped in one little chapel,

463
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: and had zero interest in traditional views on marriage and sex.

464
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: That's right, I should say they were chased out of

465
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: Connecticut when they went to a man in New York

466
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: because there was definitely everywhere they went there were some

467
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: people who were like, I'm not cool with what you're doing.

468
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: So this is around when John Noise developed what he

469
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: called complex marriage. John also coined the term free love

470
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: that were so familiar with like the hippie movement in

471
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies. He felt that the traditional form

472
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: of marriage was quote, a form of legalism from which

473
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: Christians should be free. So he felt like marriage as

474
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: we knew it in society was a legal thing and

475
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: that and that inherently went against religious teachings. They were like,

476
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: why are you obeying more of the law telling you

477
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: that you're a united couple rather than doing it God's way.

478
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: He also thought it was quote a selfish institution in

479
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: which men exerted rights of ownership over women, which is

480
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: insanely progressive for the time that someone was like, I

481
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: don't like the way I mean that was sort of

482
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: his feeling is like, we all belong to God. We

483
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: are not owned by each other. So the very concept

484
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: of like you are my wife is kind of nonsense

485
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: because no one is anyone's anything. We're all God's people, right.

486
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of explained a little better by when John

487
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: looked at this passage in the byble. It's Matthew Versus

488
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: about twenty three to thirty, and basically what happens there

489
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: is that some guy walks up to Jesus and he's like, hey, Jesus.

490
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: Um Moses said that if I die and have no kids,

491
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: my brother is supposed to marry my wife, right, Okay.

492
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: So if there's like seven brothers and the oldest brother

493
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: gets married and he dies and they don't have any kids,

494
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: then she would go and marry the next youngest brother, right,

495
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: That's what it says, Okay, And then when that brother dies,

496
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: she would marry the next brother, right, and so and

497
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: so on and so on. Eventually she marries all seven brothers. Okay,

498
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: get to the point. Okay, Well, I'm saying, like, when

499
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 1: everyone's dead and we're all in heaven, whose wife is she? Oh,

500
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. Jesus's actual response in that passage is quote

501
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: in the Resurrection they neither marry nor are given marriage,

502
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: but are as the angels of God in heaven. So

503
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: John is basically like, look, it says here in the

504
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: Bible that marriage doesn't exist in heaven. That's something we

505
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: made up, and when we all get there, none of

506
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: that ship's gonna matter. So why are we doing it here?

507
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: That's pretty much against what God's beliefs are. Well, and

508
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: his whole thing is building heaven on earth. If you

509
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: have to build the same rules from heaven as you

510
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: do on earth right exactly, like, oh, we're doing it wrong.

511
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like everyone's married and no one's married.

512
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: It's complex marriage, as he called it. And if everyone's

513
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: married and no one's married, that meant that you could

514
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: pretty much have sex with anyone or no one. Like

515
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: little Susy voice, he felt that possessiveness and exclusive relationships

516
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: were literally going against what Jesus taught. So if you

517
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: wanted to get your freak on with and this was

518
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: key to John's teachings, anyone who consented, okay, you totally could. Good. Okay,

519
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: if you didn't want to have any sex, you could

520
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: just not have sex. And if you wanted to have

521
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: zex with anyone and they were into it, I'm not

522
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: going go for it. Wow right, it sounds fun, but

523
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: you know, lots of sex that means lots of babies.

524
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: And I mean, not only was this a pretty small

525
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: commune at this point, they couldn't necessarily afford to be

526
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: having a bunch of children running around, but also the

527
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: women were in all that interested in joining a group

528
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: where they were going to be just constantly knocked up.

529
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I would definitely be like, wait a minute,

530
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: what now, so anyone can have sex with me and

531
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be pregnant seven No, I'm getting yeah.

532
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: And John was like, you know what, ladies, I totally

533
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: hear you. You know you're seen and heard here OEI.

534
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: But He's like, but there's two kinds of sex. There's

535
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: pro creative sex. Of viously, that's from making the babies.

536
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: But then there's amative sex, which is just for funzies.

537
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: That sounds cool, John, But how do you have funzy

538
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: sex without having the baby sex? A lot of people

539
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: haven't figured that one yet. I don't think exactly. And

540
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: John said, boys, that's on you. And he taught and

541
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: encouraged something called male continents that was for men to

542
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: have sex without ejaculating. Not only does this stop us

543
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: from producing unwanted children, John said, but it also helps

544
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: teach you self control. John wrote, quote, it is as

545
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: foolish and cruel to expend one seed on a wife

546
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: merely for the sake of getting rid of it, as

547
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: it would be to fire a gun at one's best

548
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: friend merely for the sake of unloading it. Quite a leap,

549
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: I feeling. I get what he's saying, but the comparison

550
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: is very intense. I know. I'm like, well, but I mean,

551
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: look at that. He's putting the onus of pregnancy on

552
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: the sperm carriers. Since, yeah, I do like that, and

553
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: I think that's a really important part of the conversation

554
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: of birth control is that, like, sperm makes babies too,

555
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't just be the uterus holder's job to prevent that

556
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: from happening. It needs to be kind of a combined effort.

557
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: So he's like, literally, y'all can have as much sex

558
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: as you want, just don't don't ejaculate inside someone. And

559
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: the men were all like, um, really, John, is that

560
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: what we're doing here? And John, you know, probably like, hey,

561
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: hey guys, I'm trying here, you know, like, do you

562
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: do you want to have a bunch of sex or not?

563
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: Because like, yeah, sex a few times is great, but

564
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: do you know what makes it a lot harder to

565
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: have sex A bunch of babies running around? You know,

566
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: A lot harder to have sex when the place is

567
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: full of kids because of all the sex you had, true,

568
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: or everyone's pregnant, right, you know. But here's the thing.

569
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: Over the years, John's wife Harriet had given birth five times,

570
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: all of which were very traumatic pregnancies, and out of

571
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: those five, only one child survived, So to him, Male

572
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: Continents was a way to spare his wife another difficult

573
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: and dangerous pregnancy. So this is kind of another strange

574
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: example of what we were talking about earlier, where John's

575
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: sort of personal life is definitely informing his religious policy,

576
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: despite the fact that he truly believes this religious policy

577
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: is a real thing. Well, I like, I do like

578
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: how courteous he's trying to be of her pregnancy experience.

579
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: You know that happened to a lot of women, and

580
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: plenty of men did not care. You know, they're just

581
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: like you're I needed to give me babies, So until

582
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: you have a few that live, we're just gonna keep trying.

583
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: At least he was finally like, you know what, let's

584
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: not do that too. And one of the most unusual

585
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: things about this group too is how much focus they

586
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: put on women's sexual satisfaction. Finally focused on very few

587
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: groups and the women loved Male Continents later into this idea,

588
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: if a man failed to withhold his seed at the

589
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: seminal moment, it was seen as a shameful thing. He

590
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: potentially faced being rejected by that woman. If he tried

591
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: to come back for more, and he could even be

592
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: publicly called out for you know, they'd be like this

593
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: guy ejaculated period, like pretty much not even part of

594
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: it at all. This guy came on me. And women

595
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: were also encouraged to have orgasms. Is boggling, my mom.

596
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: And they were given all these freedoms in Oneida that

597
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: they could not find elsewhere. They were able to wear

598
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: bloomers instead of the traditional restrictive heavy dresses, They could

599
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: have short haircuts, these these freedoms. My god, I'm heavy.

600
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: I'm heavy with the freedom I'm being able to cut

601
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: my hair short, my cob. And they participated in all

602
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: kinds of community work, from business and sales to craft

603
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: making and arts. You know, they weren't like left out

604
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: of anything for their tender gender, and they shaped community policy.

605
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: They participated in daily meetings, and what children the community

606
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: had were generally raised by a communal child care system,

607
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: so it was not fully on just one member of

608
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: the household to take care of everyone. So all the

609
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: sex you want, as few babies as you want. Uh,

610
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, no gender disparity in the workforce. Uh, there

611
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: is no salary going on here. It's it's a it's

612
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: biblical communism, they called it, where you know, everybody gets

613
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: what they need. This is I'm considering it as considering

614
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 1: it at this point in the story very important now.

615
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: John also touted a system called mutual criticism, where every

616
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: member of the community would get sat down and told

617
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: about themselves. Some of us would handle this not as

618
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: well as others. I'm not looking at anyone in this room,

619
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 1: know what I'm just saying. You know what, some people

620
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: would take feeling attacked right now. Criticism there, it is there,

621
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: It is no no. Sometimes you would sit there for

622
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: like half an hour while they just went around in

623
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: a call and everybody just listed what they thought was

624
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: wrong with you. Like like, well, Chester, yesterday I saw

625
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: you feeling up all the apples and you were putting

626
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: back all the ones you didn't like. You know, if

627
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: you touch an apple, take an apple quite frankly, Chester, Chester,

628
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: I hate how you how you clip all your toenails

629
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: in front of everyone. Do that in private? Chester, please

630
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 1: Jesus Chester, fix your face, Chester, yeah, just fix your face.

631
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: Just I'm so sicky. You're stupid, smug look all the time.

632
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: That's just like it's just my face is how my

633
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: face look. So that's pretty much how it went down.

634
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: At the end of it, John would stand up and say,

635
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: all right, we know Chester here has been a real

636
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: dick lately, but he's trying. He knows what he did.

637
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: So Chester, if you were listening and he stop being

638
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: such a piece of ship that we're all good here.

639
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: The air is clear, and now we're all that much

640
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,479
Speaker 1: closer to being perfect. Because that was obviously the goal

641
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: was to achieve this perfection, this totally free of all

642
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: sin and judgment, and this was a way to just

643
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: kind of improve everyone little by little. If you were

644
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: told about yourself, then you could shed those flaws and

645
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: you could get better. And I guess everybody got their turn. Yeah,

646
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: so you didn't feel like like piled on. You got

647
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: your chance to say exactly everyone and even John sat

648
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: for that circle, so so everybody had it. You know,

649
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: John was obviously like Mr Perfect. I was about to say.

650
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: What did they say to him? It was probably like, well,

651
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: you're wrong, actually, because I'm perfect. Actually everything I say

652
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: and do is exactly right. I don't know if you heard,

653
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: but I can't sin. But if you don't like it,

654
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: I'm welcome to hear it. Ultimately, male continents, mutual criticism,

655
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: and complex marriage were like the three pillars of perfection.

656
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: They were like the keys to attaining this perfection, this

657
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: complete freedom from sin, and ultimately this would help them

658
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: achieve eternal life on earth in Christ's millennial kingdom. And

659
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: that was literal. This was not a metaphorical live forever.

660
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: This was if we sunk around enough and we were

661
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: really good to each other, then we will actually live forever.

662
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: So anyone could do it with anyone. Consent was important.

663
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: Men held the responsibility for birth control. No one had

664
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: any ownership over anyone else, and everyone was an equal

665
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: participant in their community and all were provided for. And

666
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: there's sounds like no downside to this. Why you think

667
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: this lifestyle not take off? And we're not all living

668
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: in our own little Oneida communities right now? Seriously, Well,

669
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: you can't funk around without finding out, So we'll find

670
00:40:52,920 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: out right after this. Welcome back to the you find

671
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: out part part No one likes. Why can't we just

672
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: funk around without finding out? I'm sick of finding out.

673
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: By eighteen fifty two, the community numbered and about three

674
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: hundred members, and there are actually other satellite communities in

675
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 1: Connecticut and New Jersey and Vermont. So this forward thinking

676
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: sex party was really starting to catch on. Remember, these

677
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: people were literally called perfectionists. They believe that it was

678
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: possible to be completely free of sin in this world.

679
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: They believe that Jesus's second coming happened in the year

680
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: seventy a d. Which is like Pompeii right, Like, that's

681
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: like when Vesuvius erupted seventy nine. So Jesus was like,

682
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: I won't take a vacation. There no reason. I mean,

683
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: they're saying Jesus came back like less than a hundred

684
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: years after he left. So they were like, this was quick.

685
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: It already happened. So they thought their purpose here as

686
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: a community was to bring about his millennial kingdom, which

687
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: is where he rules over this perfect, full utopia for

688
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 1: a thousand years. So how did all that tie into

689
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: this free love, polyamorous sex fest that they were living in. Well.

690
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: In the Berman article on Gawker, she interviews Ellen Wayland Smith,

691
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: who's a writing professor at USC and also a distant

692
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: descendant of one of John Noise's sisters. And she grew

693
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: up thinking John's pretty great. You know. She basically she's

694
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: just told John and his people were quote social reformers

695
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: who thought everyone should live equally, and they created this

696
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: utopian community experiment. Sounds great, but Whaland Smith says that

697
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: when you really look into John's history quote that guy

698
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: was batshit. A nice sum up of this whole thing.

699
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: She says, he was incredibly charismatic. He just completely captivated

700
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: his followers, and an interview with a veteran of the

701
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: community who lived into the ninetheen sixties said, quote, when

702
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: you were in his presence, you wanted to do anything

703
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: he told you to do. Whalen Smith says that John

704
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: combined his religious beliefs with some made up pseudoscience to

705
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: justify these sexual standards. So John believed sex was literally

706
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: a form of divide resides and it fueled this heavenly

707
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: battery that could support eternal life. Whalen Smith said, quote,

708
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: the more you had sex, and the more evenly the

709
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: sexual energy was spread throughout the whole body, the less

710
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: sick you would be. Death would disappear once you had

711
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: attained perfect equilibrium of divine energy through all the bodies

712
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 1: in the community. Sure, okay, so sex magic um holy

713
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: sex magic, saying that basically like, if everybody in this

714
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,919
Speaker 1: little calmmune fox around enough, then we will all sort

715
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: of spread this divine energy through each other and when

716
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: it settles in perfect balance between all of us will

717
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: live forever. Does that mean that that tracks with science?

718
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: From what I know of sex batteries, that makes perfect sense.

719
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: So does that mean that if you were not a

720
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: person who wanted to have a lot of sex, did

721
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: he feel that the rest of the community could have

722
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: enough sex to make up for your lack of sexual

723
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: activity or did he eventually evolve to thinking like everyone

724
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: has to have sex. I mean, I can only go

725
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: into sexulation station about this. I hope that room has

726
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: been cleaned recently. Um, but I would say from what

727
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: I gather, again from cursory research and this guy's very

728
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: complicated life and beliefs, that he would say that the

729
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: amount you want to have sex was then was the

730
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: right amount. Yeah, it was. It was parallel to how

731
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: much sexual energy you had, and and the perfect level

732
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: was for everyone to be sextually satisfied, whatever that meant

733
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 1: for them. He has There's there's a character that we

734
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: won't really go into today, but I've really encourage you

735
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: to read up on this story because there's just so

736
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: much more than we're gonna have time to talk about.

737
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: But his niece was this girl who loved fuck and

738
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: she was known as being like so ready to go,

739
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: and she loved this lifestyle. She was all about it

740
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: and to to the point where it was like an

741
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: honor to have sex with her because she was probably

742
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: really good at it. She was like really went for

743
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: it aggressively, right, And I'll share a little bit more

744
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: about her later at the end of the story, but um,

745
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: but she was someone who probably had a lot of

746
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: that energy to share and needed to needed to spread

747
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: it around the community, so you know, whereas like if

748
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: you just had a little more, just like I just

749
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: like it on you know, once a month, on the

750
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: weekends or something. So he's like, everyone is a different battery.

751
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 1: Yeah that needs different size, will charge it. That's cool.

752
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: And the thing about male continents was that it went

753
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 1: further than just not ejaculating during sex to stop procreation.

754
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: He actually believed that ejaculating drained men of their life force,

755
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: so men could not masturbate either welland Smith writes quote

756
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: men were never allowed to have an orgasm in this community.

757
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: So I guess it ties back into what we talked

758
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: about earlier about how like, you know, emptying your gun

759
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: that a friend. It's like, if you're gonna do that,

760
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: it better be to get someone pregnant. Um. He also

761
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: felt that limiting sex to marriage meant young people faced

762
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: quote sexual starvation from the point that they hit puberty

763
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: until they got married in their early twenties. But how

764
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: do you raise young men to learn to appreciate sex

765
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: without having orgasms? Well, he felt, we have to train

766
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 1: them to do this properly, and who's going to train them? Well,

767
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: he encouraged women who had already gone through menopause to

768
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: help teenage boys practice sex without ejaculating, so that would

769
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: like minimize the risk of pregnancy, because he's like, you know,

770
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: they're going to suck up right away, We're going to

771
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: have to make allowances. Super weird that there's these women

772
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: and teenage boys definitely practicing sex, certainly by today's standards,

773
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: big problem and even weirder for some reason. Uh. Likewise,

774
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: older men were often introducing young women to sex as well,

775
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: so this was not quite as common, but John himself

776
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: is said to have taken part in that he's Mr Perfect. Yeah, exactly,

777
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you want him to do? Be your first?

778
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: But all in all, what's really crazy was that this

779
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: whole idea of a sex battery to conquered death and

780
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: support eternal life just shockingly was not really playing out.

781
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: What After twenty years of this little experiment, John looked

782
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: around and was like, wait a minute, people are still dying.

783
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: That's crazy. Something must be wrong, and surely I must

784
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 1: have the solution. So in the late eighteen sixties, John

785
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: developed an experiment called stirp culture, derived from the Latin

786
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: word stirps, which means stock, stem or root. John felt

787
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: like they needed more spiritually and physically perfect children, which

788
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: of course meant selective breeding or as we call it today,

789
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: eugenics boom, And how could they determine who was of

790
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: good breeding stock? Who could pick out the spiritually and

791
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: physically perfect people worthy of bringing children into their community? Well,

792
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 1: Mr Perfect John Noise himself, of course, people who wanted

793
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: to be parents would go before a committee presided over

794
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: by John Noyes and make their case to be approved

795
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: as breeding parents, and ultimately fifty three women and thirty

796
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: eight men were selected and fifty eight children were born,

797
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: nine of whom were fathered by John himself. Oh you

798
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 1: mean he picked himself out as one of the perfect

799
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 1: people who knew. I wonder if if he was like, oh,

800
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: she's really prob. Hey, guys, what do you think about her?

801
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: And other people in the committee would be like, I

802
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean she's a little short or whatever.

803
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: He's like, just I'm telling you it's a good one.

804
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: She's a good one. Well no, but I think John

805
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: himself and Wayland Smith writes this that these selections were

806
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: pretty political when it came down to it, And yeah,

807
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: I think John did have his pick. And you know

808
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: when he tells a woman this is where it gets

809
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: kind of dicey. He would tell a woman, oh, you know,

810
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: you're so perfect that you and I should have sex

811
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: because God wants it. And whether or not she wanted

812
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: to with him, it's kind of coercion because he's telling her,

813
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, God says we should have sex because you're perfect.

814
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: I'm perfect. Hey, baby, come on, what are we doing.

815
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: Here's why waste wasting time. This is perfection. This is destiny,

816
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: you and me. And we've all heard that line at

817
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: the bar. Yes me too. In life. That is definitely

818
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: not cool. I mean, so many religion religious men and

819
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: women have used that. Yeah, I guess I should say

820
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: mostly religious men, and I don't think there's too many

821
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: religious women, but there surely is some out there. But

822
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 1: definitely religious men have used it as an excuse and

823
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: told plenty of people like, this is the way to

824
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: make the Lord happy with you. And what do you know,

825
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: you believe your priest that's like the person you're supposed

826
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: to be able to try to test. Now, these children,

827
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: the fifty eight children who were born over the ten

828
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: years of this was happening, were raised communally in a

829
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: wing that they built on the Oneida Community mansion house,

830
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: and there were designated supervisors to make sure that they

831
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 1: followed a particular routine as they grew up. Now, their

832
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: biological parents were allowed to visit them, but if it

833
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: was determined by the supervisors or John or anyone on

834
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: the committee, that there was a strong bond growing between

835
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: a parent and child, they would enforce a period of

836
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: separation because they didn't want there to be a specific

837
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: affectionate relationship between any of the kids and any particular adults.

838
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: It was all about the community and not about these

839
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: like smaller family units. So the kids were raised with

840
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: a lot of care and attention. They were diligently attended to,

841
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: They were super well fed, they were very well educated,

842
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: and their education didn't have gender enforcements like girls would

843
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: also learn to be machinists. Boys would also learn how

844
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 1: to weave cloth. Like there was no idea of like

845
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: boys do this, girls do that. It was everyone does everything.

846
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: They shared toys, They were taught not to value possession.

847
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, I looked and looked and tried

848
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: to find who these people or their descendants were, couldn't

849
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: find anything specific. You know, maybe you're one of the

850
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: descendants of these perfect children. They look like, oh any

851
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: one of us. Maybe they all got mutant superpowers and

852
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: started a school in upstate New York. Oh my god,

853
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: Wait a second, god, is this guy Charles Xavier hang

854
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: on Um. But apparently these kids all did grow up

855
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 1: and live long, happy, healthy lives. Some of the boys

856
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: grew up and went to Yale because only boys could

857
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: go to Yale at the time. They became physicians, engineers, architects, chemists,

858
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: things like that. The girls were offered the opportunity to

859
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: go to art schools or whatever colleges they were accepted into. Uh,

860
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, not not a bad situation for them ultimately,

861
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: aside from the weird, weird social upbringing they had. But

862
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: Stirpri culture was the very first eugenics type experiment in

863
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: the United States, and it did go on for about

864
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: ten years. So Berman notes that noise did have the

865
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: power to dictate who was breeding with whom. As you said,

866
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: by today's standards, that can certainly look like coercion or worse. Right,

867
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: as we're talking about Whalen Smith says that quote women

868
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: were introduced to sex, whether they wanted it or not,

869
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: when they were twelve to fourteen years old. Gross. The

870
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: age of consent in New York at the time was

871
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 1: horrifically twelve years old. She says that quote. The thing

872
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: that bothers me is that the people who initially signed

873
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: onto this thing, we're consenting adults. Then the new generation

874
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: was born into it. They didn't know anything else. Part

875
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: of being in the community was that you had sex,

876
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: and they weren't consenting because they were not of age

877
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: by contemporary standards. That's so tough. You just want to

878
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 1: go back and be like, if I can just tweak

879
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: this little commune. It might be great, it might be

880
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,399
Speaker 1: totally fine. So many good ideas that are totally like

881
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: being overshadowed by the shitty party exactly exactly. It's like, cool,

882
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: why don't you have exactly this little second party that

883
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: you have going on here, no rules, just right um

884
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: blooming onions whatever. And then maybe the age you can

885
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 1: cent is eighteen, and then you figured out and also

886
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: maybe there's not a committee to determine who has sex

887
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: with who? I mean yeah, and maybe you know, people

888
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: can breed when they want to and it's not like

889
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: a selection committee. You take that out, what your left

890
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: with is a pretty decent little party. Yeah. With the

891
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: Sturbrid culture thing, yeah really upended. I mean there's definitely

892
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: some weird ship before that, but like they really put

893
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible record scratch into this whole. Yeah. And

894
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: also maybe allow men to orgasm, like you know, even

895
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: be fine putting the onus of pregnancy on them and

896
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 1: saying you can't you can't just get a woman pregnant

897
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: every time you want to have sex. That's fine. Um,

898
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: but also like you know, hand stuff is okay, throw

899
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: that in there, and it's a lot cooler man stuff

900
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: is okay, But Whalen Smith points out that John quote

901
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: may not have been a feminist, but he did a

902
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 1: lot to liberate women. She talks about how nineteenth century

903
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: women in America were on average giving birth to seven

904
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: children in their lifetimes, and those were very difficult. A

905
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 1: lot of those children didn't survive. Sometimes the women themselves

906
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: didn't survive or had really debilitating health problems afterwards, and

907
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: then they would still have to spend the rest of

908
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: their lives pretty much raising these children. I mean, if

909
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: you're having seven kids in your lifetime and they all survive,

910
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: you're raising kids for the rest of your life, you know.

911
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 1: And the fact that John mandated that that didn't have

912
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: to be women's lives, that they didn't even have to

913
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: get pregnant ever if they didn't want to, was totally

914
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: revolutionary in its own right. That the basic idea behind

915
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: perfectionism was just to build a society where everyone treated

916
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: each other equally seems like a fantasy even by today's standards.

917
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: So the fact that he was doing this in like

918
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds is still kind of mind blowing. Again,

919
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: if you can take away all the creepy stuff. I mean,

920
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: it's just tough to take aroil the creem exactly. You

921
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: just want to you want to rip it out. You

922
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: almost had it John so close, and like this wasn't

923
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: just a big funk fest for day. Okay, they got

924
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: to work. They were work and they would work. The

925
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: community put their skills to work, and they produced furniture bags, silk,

926
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: preserved fruits. Collectively, they were making the equivalent of millions

927
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: of dollars today that collective labor. Pretty pretty productive. Yeah,

928
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: And I should add that their workdays weren't even super intense.

929
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, you know, they weren't up at four

930
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: am raising a barn. They you know, they had a

931
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 1: normal average workday. It wasn't too hard than they they

932
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: presumably just sucked all the time. They would retire to

933
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: the orgy room or whatever. But in eighteen seventy six,

934
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: John attempted to pass leadership on to his son Theodore.

935
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: But Theodore was actually agnostic and he didn't have his

936
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: father's charisma. He tried to lead with a much tighter,

937
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: stricter rule set than his father, and the community was

938
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: like not down with the changes he was making. Um,

939
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: there was a point where things got so bad that

940
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: John had to come back and try to patch things up.

941
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: Bob Iger exactly, like, I'm like, it's tough when you

942
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: based everything on one cult of personality and then you

943
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: try to pass it on and keep going, Like that's

944
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: not really a sustainable ring, right, So yeah, I was

945
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: pretty messy. A guy named James Towner led an internal revolt,

946
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: and he had his own little group of followers who

947
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: weren't listening to John's son at all. Well, and of

948
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: course outside the community, a lot of religious leaders were

949
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: talking mad ship about what John was doing here. They

950
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: said that he was deteriorating morals and bringing about the

951
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: end of traditional marriage, which you know, John's like, yeah,

952
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: I told you that's the point, Like it's the first thing.

953
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: They really hated how much freedom women were being given.

954
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: Of course, they criticized them as having a quote peculiar

955
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: air of unhealthiness brought on by sexual excess. Oh, they

956
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: have roses in their cheeks all the time. It looks feverish.

957
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: Something's wrong with those women. Their lips are always curled

958
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: up where in some horrific expression of of what is

959
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: that joy? They look like the joker so they were

960
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: always looking for a way to bring noise down, and finally,

961
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy nine they found it. Professor John Mears

962
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: of Hamilton's College organized a big protest meeting with a

963
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: bunch of other clergymen from around the state, and John

964
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: was informed by one of his close confidence that these

965
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: guys had put together a warrant to arrest him on

966
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: the charges of adultery and statutory rape. He's like, true, yeah,

967
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: you know, like I resemble that accusation. Only I had

968
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:36,959
Speaker 1: gone to law school, I might be able to argue

969
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: my way out of it. Yeah, right, I mean, he

970
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: saw the writing on the wall. He knew they were

971
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: coming for him, and he did not have a good

972
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: argument to get out of it. So in the middle

973
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: of the night he dipped. He fled to Ontario, Canada,

974
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: where the community owned a factory, and fearing more legal

975
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: pressures from the outside, he wrote back to his community Oneida,

976
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: and he told them, hey, you guys need to do

977
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: solved this whole complex marriage thing. You guys need to

978
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: figure out how to live in a more traditional manner.

979
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: Because he really feared and they did too, that they

980
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: were all about to get arrested on adultery charges. Sure,

981
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: I mean, if they could use it against him, they

982
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 1: could nat it against anyone. But whyland Smith again points

983
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:20,439
Speaker 1: out his seemingly total devotion to his beliefs. So even

984
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: after telling people like, forget it, you know, let's not

985
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: all get arrested here, he's still really believed all of

986
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: the things he said. And after he got booted from

987
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: the US, he apparently wrote to Queen Victoria in England

988
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: and asked her to join his campaign to start God's

989
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: eaven on earth wayland Smith says that in his diary

990
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: he's completely matter of fact about it and just earnestly

991
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: believed that this was his life's purpose. I mean he

992
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: started with Queen Victoria, that's the thing though. He just like, Oh,

993
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: that's the most logical thing. That's what God would want

994
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: me to do. She's got a lot of influence. Why

995
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: didn't I start with her time? You know? I wonder

996
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: if she opened all her own mail at that point,

997
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: which I was just like, what in the world, Dear

998
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: Queen Vicky, how'd you like to funk all night, never

999
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: worry about babies? Where whatever you want and cut your

1000
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: hair short? Have I got a plan for you, She

1001
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 1: wrote back, like it sounds jolly good, but I'm currently

1002
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 1: having seances to try to speak to my husband beyond

1003
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: I already have my hands full. Good luck getting your

1004
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: hands full? Was someone else, love Queen Victoria. She was

1005
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: otherwise occupied with a totally different, crazy idea and I

1006
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: can't wait to get to her. We will. But back

1007
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: in Oneida, external pressures and all the failed new leadership

1008
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: meant that the community was breaking apart. And you know again,

1009
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: all them were fearing adultery charges as well. So a

1010
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: lot of the members ended up paring off and getting

1011
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 1: traditionally married. It was just like whoever you lived with,

1012
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: All right, let's just do this. Who is my favorite? Henry?

1013
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: Get over here? Oh man, imagine getting picked last in

1014
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 1: that Jim class group. Al Right, everybody, pick who you're

1015
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: gonna marry. I'll take to me. I'll take Susie. And

1016
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: then like poor Billy, Oh no, poor Chester. Well we

1017
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,439
Speaker 1: told you about yourself, Chester, and you didn't get any better.

1018
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: You still got that stupid look on your face. It's

1019
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 1: like it's called sadness. So the business side of things

1020
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: was converted into a corporation and members of Oneida were

1021
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: issued shares in the company, where manufacturing continued, and in

1022
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: eight John Noises sex Battery was finally depleted and he

1023
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: passed away. His body went back to Oneida and he

1024
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: was buried in the communal cemetery there. Afterwards, James Towner,

1025
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: the I who had led the internal revolt and like

1026
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: had his own followers. He took his people and their

1027
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: share of the wealth, which was substantial, and they moved

1028
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: out west to California. They bought huge chunks of land,

1029
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 1: and the governor of California, recognizing all their political power,

1030
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: carved out a little piece of the state for them.

1031
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: He appointed James town Or the judge, and he named

1032
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: it Orange County. That's where the o c Without him,

1033
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 1: we would not have Ben Mackenzie today. You know, it

1034
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: explains a lot about the show. There was a lot

1035
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: of people still living that lifestyle. They did um. They

1036
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: continued to have this sort of socialist free love lifestyle

1037
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: out there, but they kept it way more quiet than

1038
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: the Oneida group ever did, because they saw what happened

1039
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: and they were like, we don't want all this external

1040
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: ship coming in and ruining our orgy. It was the

1041
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: proselytizing that really for us. Yeah, and then in the

1042
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, the company that they've formed, Oneida Community Limited,

1043
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: narrowed their focus strictly to producing silverware. All the furniture making,

1044
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 1: the silk, the canning industry, all that eventually fizzled out

1045
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 1: just wasn't profitable, and Oneida eventually became the leading brand

1046
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 1: of silverware in the United States. But in two thousand

1047
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: four they ceased all US manufacturing operations. They've been closing

1048
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: down facilities ever since, but they do still manufacture overseas.

1049
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: They still sell silverware, and the f a Q page

1050
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: on their website mentions absolutely nothing about free Love, John

1051
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: Noise or sex batteries. I guess I not surprised. Look,

1052
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I think that all of us should

1053
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 1: email Oneida and ask them thing about this sex commune

1054
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 1: and get them to put it on their f a Q. Yeah.

1055
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 1: Maybe hasn't been asked office a frequently asked question. Everyone

1056
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: who hears this episode right to Oneida today and asked

1057
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 1: them about John Noise and slee battery. Please don't. I

1058
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 1: don't want Oneida like suing us for harassment. How could they?

1059
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: How could they? This is all fact? Look I'm just

1060
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 1: very interested in their company policy. We're very hush about

1061
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 1: the sex on ejaculation. How funny though, Like that's too

1062
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: They're like, men can't ejaculate. Kellogg was like that he

1063
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: made corn flakes, so yeah, well so they wouldn't masturbate. Okay,

1064
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: that's true. I guess that's right. It was supposed to

1065
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: like depress your libido or something, right, right, are very depressing.

1066
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: So I love corn flakes. They really get me going

1067
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: or get me hot. Watch her throw some berries in there, well,

1068
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: frosted flakes from me baby's sugar. I'm worn out. I'm

1069
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: worn out from eating a bowl of frosted flakes before

1070
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: anything can happened afterwards. Well it makes my heart beat faster,

1071
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: but in the wrong way. Wow. I mean, this guy

1072
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: is such a character and I don't even again scratches

1073
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: the surface. Oh I wanted to say about his niece.

1074
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: Um she apparently when they announced like okay, we're getting

1075
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: rid of our sex cult, we're gonna stop complex marriage,

1076
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna go in traditional ship. On their last day,

1077
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: she went and had sex with three guys to like

1078
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 1: celebrate the end. She was really piste off that they

1079
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: were getting rid of this because she wanted to get it.

1080
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: She loves getting it. She was like, all right, you

1081
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: know what, if I'm going out, I'm going out in

1082
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: a big ways. She did. Who were those three lucky guys?

1083
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 1: Her last three wasn't Chester. I'll tell you that she's not.

1084
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 1: You get lost, Jester. I need the top three of

1085
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: the fifty eight guys that were allowed to right, and

1086
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,479
Speaker 1: so weird I'm so weirded out by this. And there's

1087
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 1: so much more to this story. I mean a lot

1088
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: of it's like detailed religious stuff or like awkward political

1089
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 1: and legal issues. One one family tried to sue to

1090
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: get their daughter out of there, or she didn't want

1091
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,479
Speaker 1: to go. Um. You know, everybody seemed to really love

1092
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: it while they were there. Um, we only have, you know,

1093
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: a bit of uh, just curiosity about the kind of

1094
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: darker side of it. Um. Obviously, no one was writing

1095
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: down or filing reports of assault or anything like that,

1096
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: so we don't know. But by and large, most of

1097
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: the accounts of the day, um, the diaries and things

1098
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 1: like that that people kept, they seem to really like it.

1099
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: The good parts sound great, sound great in there, for sure.

1100
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we need to get rid of the sturp culture.

1101
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: Ridiogenics always definitely gotta go. Yep, yep. May the twelve

1102
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 1: or fourteen year old girls and boys should not be

1103
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 1: ye ye don't like that? Um what else there was?

1104
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 1: Some of them could permit male orgasms probably maybe not

1105
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: deny them entirely. Um, it does feel like, I mean

1106
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 1: sucks not. I'm like, who, like, I guess how many

1107
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: trick element to it? Well, how many of these guys

1108
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: and their partners were like, well, yeah, go ahead, and

1109
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, we'll do some other stuff really quick at

1110
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: the end here, Yeah, the evidence care of Yeah, I

1111
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 1: mean you know, maybe some women love that part, right,

1112
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 1: you know they were like, oh come on, but yeah, man,

1113
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. You gotta you gotta tell us what

1114
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: do you think of this one? Because I don't know

1115
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: what to make heads or tails of it. It's so

1116
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 1: all over the I'm just like, oh, this is pretty good.

1117
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 1: Oh no that it's terrible. Oh this is interesting. Oh

1118
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 1: he's crazy. Oh he's brilliant. No, he's terrible, like all

1119
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 1: over the place with this story. And he seems so weird,

1120
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: Like I don't know what his head looked like, you know,

1121
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 1: inside his head. Was it like for you in there,

1122
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: because it seems weird on the outside. You had some

1123
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 1: good ideas again, but the whole context of his life

1124
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 1: was so grandiose and such a save your character, and

1125
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 1: he's got the real kind of narcissism. I mean, it

1126
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 1: didn't play out in that toxic narcissistic way in a

1127
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: lot of ways, but there's still a sense of being

1128
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: very like, I'm right, I know what's right, what's right.

1129
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 1: I have this direct connection to to a deity that

1130
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: allows me to dictate other people's behavior. I mean, that's

1131
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 1: a really weird way to think about the world. It's

1132
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: interesting to think about how having this kind of you

1133
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: know what I can only assume is a derangement of

1134
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: some sort, uh, does not automatically mean you're going to

1135
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 1: use it to the worst possible lends. He had some

1136
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 1: really great ideas, Um, they were just wrapped up in

1137
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of insanity nonsense about sex batteries. Well, it's

1138
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:19,640
Speaker 1: that's authoritarian streak that some people have. I feel like

1139
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 1: I have it too, where I'm just like, I know

1140
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 1: exactly how it should be. You do too, By the way,

1141
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 1: let us not act very accurate and you know correct,

1142
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:33,560
Speaker 1: But here's this pretty good anyway, did you hear it?

1143
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 1: But I mean that's what I mean. You know, you

1144
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: just have this idea of like, I just know how

1145
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: everyone would be happiest. I just know what's best for you.

1146
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,280
Speaker 1: And it doesn't always mean that you're like put everyone

1147
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,679
Speaker 1: who's not white in a box and shipping off somewhere.

1148
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: You know. Sometimes it is like a sense of like,

1149
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:56,320
Speaker 1: I want inclusion and nice things for people, but you're

1150
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: still trying to dictate other people's lives. So even if

1151
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 1: you have this like nice, loving, you know, goal in mind,

1152
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 1: it still can feel very similar to the people under you,

1153
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, because it's just still saying I

1154
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 1: know it's best for you, you know, and kind of

1155
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 1: a motherly way or fotherly way rather than a fascist way.

1156
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: But it's still that impulse. Yeah, it's like my grandfather

1157
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: always said the best way to rule the world is

1158
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:29,799
Speaker 1: through a benevolent dictatorship. But I just don't have the time.

1159
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 1: That is definitely you would say that now. But that's

1160
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 1: that's that's what you've got, I think, is that feeling

1161
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 1: of yeah, I could do it, I'm just like not

1162
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,839
Speaker 1: going to do it. Everyone would be a lot happier

1163
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: if I was in charge of everything. I promise you that,

1164
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 1: But God, please don't put me in charge of everything.

1165
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: That's what makes me such a good candidate. But for me,

1166
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 1: because I don't want you to. Alright, y'all, let us

1167
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:03,719
Speaker 1: know what you thought of this. Pitch us your ideas

1168
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: for a sex utopia. We'd love to hear them. Depends

1169
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 1: on the edge. I would love to take a look

1170
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: at them. I don't know if i'd love to repeat them,

1171
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 1: but go ahead, send me what you got. If they're good,

1172
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 1: we'll read them on the show. We'd love to utopia

1173
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,240
Speaker 1: proposal sections. Yes, absolutely, to a whole episode. Here's everybody's

1174
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 1: idea for sex utopias. We'll give everybody three minutes. Go

1175
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 1: do a little pull online, get everyone to vote yeah,

1176
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: and then we'll start it. It'll turn out great, It'll

1177
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 1: be great. Please email us your thoughts you'd love to

1178
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 1: hear them. You can reach us at riddic Romance at

1179
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 1: gmail dot com, writer on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at

1180
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 1: Dynamite Boom and I'm at Oh Great. It's eli show

1181
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: is a romance and we'd love to hear from you.

1182
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: Don't forget to rate us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify

1183
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: and all these fun places. And of course, tell everyone

1184
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 1: you know to listen to this episode and all our episodes.

1185
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Chell, We will catch you the next one.

1186
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: Love you bye, so long friends, it's time to go.

1187
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to our show. Tell your friends neighbor's

1188
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 1: uncles in dance to listen to a show Ridiculous Roll

1189
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,600
Speaker 1: Dance m