WEBVTT - Interview Interlude Playlist, Part 5: Mark Mandica 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:14.760 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.680 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe mccormaican. Today 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.320 we're gonna be having a little bit of amphibian talk. 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.520 That's right, We're gonna be chatting with Mark Bandka, the 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:28.160 executive director of the Amphibian Foundation. Uh The Amphibian Foundation 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:34.680 is an Atlanta area based nonprofit organization dedicated to connecting individuals, communities, 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.920 and organizations in order to create and implement lasting solutions 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.239 to the global amphibian extinction crisis. Uh So, it was 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.159 just a great opportunity for us to reach out to 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.639 a local expert in their field to discuss the wonderful 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.600 world of amphibians, especially salamanders. Right, so we talked frogs, tadpoles, 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:58.560 especially salamanders, some death defying winter weather adventures. So I 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.279 think we talked some wolverine towards the end. Yeah, there 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.039 will be cannibal morphs. So if you're getting all geared 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.200 up for Halloween, don't worry. There will be some. There 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.880 will be some some Halloween worthy content in this episode, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:14.559 and you'll just learn a great deal about Amphibian Biology. Um, 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.240 just a little more info here before we get rolling. 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:19.319 If you if you want to check out more about 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.479 the Amphibian Foundation, you can go to Amphibian Foundation dot org. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.600 You can also follow them on Twitter. Their handle is 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:31.080 Amphibian found on Instagram, It's Amphibian Foundation and it's Amphibian 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.720 found on Facebook as well. And Mark is also on 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.560 Twitter himself. You can follow him Mark Mandica. That's m 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.039 A r K M A N D I C A. 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:47.720 So I'd say let's get right into our chat with Mark. Hey, Mark, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.880 thanks so much for coming on the show. I was 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.120 wondering if before we get into any questions or Amphibian 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.320 talk today, could you just introduce yourself to our listeners, 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.520 tell them who you are and what you do. Absolutely. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.160 My name is Mark Mandika. I am the executive director 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.200 of the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta. Excellent. Well, thanks 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.080 for taking time out of your day to come chat 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.920 with us. I was already familiar with with with some 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:13.440 of what what you guys were up to in the 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.720 Atlanta area through some of your Salamander strolls and other 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:21.520 educative outreach programs. Uh uh, you know in the Atlanta 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.320 area but but then I started looking into it more 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.600 and learning a little bit more about the Amphibian Foundation, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.520 I realized this was a really great fit for stuff 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.840 to blow your mind. All right, Well, actually, can you 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:33.640 tell us just a little bit about what you do 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.600 at the Amphibian Foundation. Absolutely? Uh. The Amphibian Foundation is 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:42.040 a nonprofit. We just had our second anniversary, and we 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:50.200 focus on novel conservation research plans for endangered species, both 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:54.959 here in the Southeast United States and globally. UM. We 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:59.960 also have an educational component that we use for several reasons. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.880 One is it's our main way to support the foundation 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.240 through these programs. But we firmly believe that we need 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.720 to raise the next generation of conservationists and that's our 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.120 main target through our outreach program is getting people excited 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:18.200 about amphibians and excited about saving them because they're in 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.919 a lot of trouble. And when you say you work 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.200 on a novel conservation solutions, give me an example of 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.200 what you mean by that. Does that mean like non 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:32.320 non standard approaches to yes? Um. So, for example, our 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:37.120 highest priority research program is on the frosted flatwood salamander, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:42.800 which is um significantly imperiled. There's one tiny puddle left 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.360 in the state of Georgia with this species in it. 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:51.240 They're already extinct from South Carolina. Something needs to be 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:57.120 done immediately and quickly. So we've developed UM twenty artificial 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.400 wetlands where we can monitor them very closely and make 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.160 sure that these salamanders have everything they need. It's the 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.720 only captive colony of the species on the planet, so 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.240 it's really important that we're successful. UM. We've developed these 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:17.080 UM miniature ecosystems which have never been developed before, so 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.599 they're brand new. We're very optimistic, but that's what I 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.920 mean by novel. We had to figure out something that 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.920 we needed to do immediately because the species is considered 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:31.200 at imminent risk of extinction UM, so it's imperative that 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.800 we're successful, and we felt like this was our best 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:39.000 shot at having them breathe successfully in captivity while our 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.880 partners restore habitat UM so that we can have someplace 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.240 to release them back into the wild UM. So that 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.440 that's kind of what I mean by novel. So with 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.159 that species in particular, would you say that your main 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.080 goal is to like build up the populations to where 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.440 they can get a foothold in their environment or would 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.800 it be more of a research focus to like under 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.039 and what you can do to let them thrive again. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.800 We want to do research, but right now we're really 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.080 just trying to keep the species alive. We're trying to 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.520 figure out how to breed them, which has never been 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:18.040 done before UM. So we've been charged with figuring out 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.680 how to breed them, and once we've cracked that, we 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.880 are going to basically export this recipe to other institutions 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.520 with some of our captive produced offspring, so that we 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:34.600 can really start generating large numbers of frosted flatwood salamanders 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.960 every year and have big numbers to release back into 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.080 restored habitat. Do you know what has driven them to 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:42.720 this point to begin with? Does I have to do 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:47.279 with habitaty good idea. So, frosted flatwood salamanders are long 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.640 leaf pine endemics, So long leaf pine is the coastal 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.520 plain of Georgia, but that's been reduced to three of 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.080 its historic range, so that whole habitat is almost gone. Obviously, 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.320 any species that are reliant on that habitat are not 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:07.080 doing well. To further that, UM, flatwood salamanders are dependent 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:11.239 on wildfire, and that has been suppressed by and large 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.200 even in the remaining long leaf pine habitat. Flatwood salamanders 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.840 need that fire. So if you suppress it, or if 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.719 you do controlled burns at non natural times, which is 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:27.159 also very common, that really negatively affects the salamanders. So 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.000 we're trying to identify long leaf pine with land managers 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.320 that are willing to either let wildfires through there or 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.040 do controlled burns at the natural cycles. Does that make sense? 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.200 But I wonder do you know why they need the fire, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.520 what role that plays? I do? Uh, they need open 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.920 pine savannas, which was very common and is maintained naturally 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.800 by wildfire every year or two, that's how often that 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:57.240 long leaf pine would burn naturally. So if once you 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.160 suppress the fire, then the trees bviously start to grow in, 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.640 they close the canopy, and that's no longer suitable for 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:09.679 flatwood salamanders. Now, this is just part of a larger 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.640 ongoing mass extinction of amphibians. Um is now is the 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.160 mass extinction of amphibians? Is this something that goes beyond 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.720 the rate of extinctions and other species? Is this something 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.800 special or how is it linked to you know, the 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:30.280 the typical habitat loss climate change based extinctions we're seeing elsewhere, right, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.320 excellent question. The the animals that I am familiar with 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.120 are are mostly vertebrates. I'm sure this is also a 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.040 trend with the invertebrates, but they're all suffering due to 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:49.760 habitat loss and shifting climates. But amphibians are so intensely 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:55.040 sensitive to the environment. There are more declining amphibians than 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.640 mammals and birds combined, so they're just disappearing at a 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.400 pro fund rate right now. That if you looked at 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:07.080 the IUCN Red List website, they have forty of the 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:12.360 world's amphibians are in catastrophic decline or already extinct, so 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.360 that's almost half. It's just a huge number. That's why 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:21.640 we started the Amphibian Foundation. Is there a generalizable answer 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.840 um about what makes amphibians particularly vulnerable to these changes 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.520 in habitats and the climate. Yes, there have been some 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:36.480 identified factors um. And then what's in and this has 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:40.080 been since the eighties since these causes have been identified 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.840 in what's being explored now is how they are working 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.040 synergistically to be even more expedient to killing amphibians. But 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.800 their skin. It's really about their skin, so you'll never 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.559 see a frog drink, for example. They absorb everything through 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.320 their skin. Anything that we've put into the environment is 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.560 going to be absorbed up into that amphibian. So um. 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.839 There's been lots of research done on pesticides and herbicides 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.520 and their effects on amphibians that are often sub lethal, 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:15.480 but they'll grow extra limbs. It will effeminize male frogs. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.719 You know, there are lots of estrogen mimicking compounds that 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.760 we don't even think about. We just spread it on 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:26.400 our lawns. Um, and that will turn amphibians female when 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.439 they're intended to be male. So that's kind of spooky. UM, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.720 and you can see how that would affect the reproductive 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:38.520 output for a population. I've read a lot about UM. 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.240 I guess I didn't know what the cause was, but 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.000 general interruptions and the reproductive cycles for amphibians. I think 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.080 I was reading about maybe the Eastern hellbender. Is that 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:52.800 one that's had reproductive problems, Yes, and that has other 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.480 very very specific problems to the hellbenders. One of our 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.920 favorite amphibians, and it's Georgia native, so I'm quite fond 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.079 of it. But they need pristine streams. I mean, how 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.040 many pristine streams do you think there are left? You know, 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:14.920 very very few. So they have zero tolerance for sedimentation 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.679 or pollution that you often find in Georgia streams these days. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.880 And are there temperature dynamics in their their breeding that 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.920 come into play as well, Yes, So that is being 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.800 investigated now to trying to predict the responses of salamanders 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.520 to climate change. Um, it seems like some are going 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.719 to be more dependent on others. Hellbenders specifically need very 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.559 cold water and that's also going to become a scarcity 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.240 as things heat up. It's also worth mentioning that the 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:49.560 Georgia colloquialism is snot otter for hell So I always 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.960 like to say that whenever there's an opportunity. Well, I've heard, 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.840 if I'm remembering right, I've heard them sort of vilified 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.679 by fishermen or something like they do they have a 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.360 do a pretty good bite. Yeah, yeah, they're and they're 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.800 the largest North American amphibians, so they get quite quite large. 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.920 So when when we're talking about potentially losing so many 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:16.240 of these amphibian species, and particularly salamander species, like, can 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.920 you explain the role they play in the larger ecosystem, 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.200 so we can get a sense our listeners can get 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.440 a sense of some of the um, the spiraling, you know, 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:29.280 ramifications of losing these species. So this is a talking 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.920 point I often give, and I didn't want to miss 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.440 anything because, um, honestly, sometimes I'm engaging the public and 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.560 people that are like, who cares if the amphibians are disappearing? 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.559 But they do a lot of remarkable jobs for us 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.079 behind the scenes. You know, Um, we don't think about 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.839 how many there are in the ecosystem because you really 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:51.959 have to go out at night in the rain to 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:56.840 witness amphibians. Um, but right off the top, my go 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.400 to answer is that a thousand amphibians eat five million 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:06.840 insects a year roughly, which is a tremendous number of insects, 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.800 and a lot of them specialize in eating mosquitoes. There. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.320 I think that buys them their ticket to safety right there, right, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.960 I mean, so if you think about that alone, um, 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.120 that's usually the first thing I say. But um, they 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.960 are there are so many animals that are dependent on 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.120 them for food. So if you think about it ecologically, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:33.800 you know, tadpoles are are vegetarians. Their primary consumers eating 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.520 vegetable matter. Then they metamorphosed into carnivores, so they are 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.280 turning that sun energy into usable energy that lots of 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.160 other predators eat everything, loves to eat everything that's a 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.439 carnivore loves to eat amphibians either their eggs or their 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.800 tadpoles or the adults. So they are right in the 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.480 middle of the food chain and really important to the 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:59.079 ecology of any system. So to back up a little bit, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.560 how did you wind up working with amphibians. I've always 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.640 loved amphibians, so, but I grew up in New Jersey 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.000 and never saw an amphibian growing up. The part of 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.079 New Jersey where I grew up probably been a hundred 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.720 and fifty years since there's been an amphibian there, so 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:20.199 I'm really developed. Um, But I just always loved frogs, 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.120 and so my birthdays when I was little, I'd always 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.600 get rubber frogs and frog pjas. I'm moving all the 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.720 way up, So I've always had that passion. But when 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:35.040 I was an undergrad in an entirely different field, I 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.160 thought I would take herpetology past fail because I was 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.800 not a science person. Um, and I did, and it 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.760 just completely changed my life. So I was pretty late 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.200 in life. I was thirty and never heard the term 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.720 herpetology before. And it blew my mind that you could 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.440 devote your time to investigating these fascinating animals. And it's 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.320 really my life is divided to before I took that 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.680 class and after and since then, I've been really focused 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.600 on amphibians and I had a lot of great opportunities 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.120 early on. What really cinched it for me is that 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.480 I was eager to do field work and I got 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:19.120 an opportunity to do to study too ephemeral seasonal temporary 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.240 wetlands in a remote part of Massachusetts for two years. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:29.000 And in Massachusetts it gets really cold there. Um, so 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.680 my study started in March where the ground is still frozen, 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:37.280 there's still snow, and I witnessed a salamander migration, a 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.840 spotted salamander migration over the ice and snow in March, 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.480 where hundreds of animals were marching over the snow. I 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.440 was freezing, and these things they can't even generate their 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.400 own body heat, but they were just in mass you know, 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.480 two so driven to breed and I just couldn't. It 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.640 blew my mind. You know, and watching them there. Some 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.280 of the animals were as cold as nineteen degrees and 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.480 they didn't care. You know, that's pretty amazing. But just 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.040 hundreds of animals. This is a species that's gorgeous, but 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.760 they're active for one or two weeks a year, so 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.720 your chances of seeing one of these are so slim 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:21.480 to see hundreds, and it's really it's even to this day, 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.440 it just carries me because it's such a beautiful species 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.800 that I got to witness. That's an amazing image. So 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.800 as as far as them surviving in the cold, I 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.680 don't know if I'm remembering this right, but I've got 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.520 a friend too long ago she worked with salamander research 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.400 and she told me about I think she said that 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.840 the salamanders they used in research could be frozen, frozen 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.040 solid and then thaw it out alive. Is that sometimes 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.080 the case? Or am I misremembering that? You are not 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:56.240 misremembering that. It's pretty well documented mostly in frogs. Freeze 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:01.000 tolerance is um being able to free and then thought 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.120 and really have no negative effect of that. There are 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.040 several species here in Georgia that can do that. Not salamanders, 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.280 though that I'm aware of, the frog. A few frogs 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:14.280 here in Georgia can freeze, but the salamanders that I 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.240 was just describing are not freeze tolerant, the spotted salamanders, 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.280 but they can super cool. So that's being able to 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.520 go below freezing point and not freeze is a fluid 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:30.840 mechanics term called super cooling. Super cool. Obvious thing to 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.760 say about it, but it's really a neat phenomenon as well. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.120 So that's how they could be nineteen degrees fahrenheit and 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.880 keep moving exactly because that, you know, you would think 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.400 that the water in their body would freeze, but it 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:45.760 does not. There's a limit to that, but nineteen degrees 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:47.960 clearly is not that limit. Well, I want to hear 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.880 more about salamanders in general. What's amazing about salamanders? Tell us? Well, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:59.760 if if I haven't convinced anyone yet, um my, what 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.680 my favorite things about them are Amphibians in general is 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.680 how they feed, how they can move their tongues. When 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.399 you slow it down with a high speed video camera, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.960 you can really see them do amazing things. Um before 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.880 you've seen it before. Um. When I'm also a science illustrator, 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.639 and um, when I was an underground I had the 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:28.520 opportunity to illustrate an article on this insane frog that 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.119 can change the direction of its tongue after it launches it, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.720 so pray is moving. When you slow a frog feeding 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:40.040 video down, you usually see them close their eyes before 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.200 their tongue comes out, so it's like a hail mary. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:47.720 That's a ballistic tongue protraction. There are others frogs and 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:52.760 salamanders that have a hydrostatic tongue, uh control of their 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:59.480 hydrostatic tongue, and some of them can pichet like eighty degrees, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.000 you know, and so you can swing out to the 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.600 I'm using visual in an audio medium, but it's pretty 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.600 amazing to watch these animals can like just whip their 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:14.600 tongue out in mid um mid strokes. So salamanders, when 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.960 you guys might not know, the fastest tongue known to 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.399 science as a salamander, and they are named for it. 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.800 That are the politic glossans, which means bullet tongue. And 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.840 if you're lucky enough to see um regular speed footage 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.120 of them feeding, you just see things disappear, that's all 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.000 you see and stuff. Yeah um, And then they can 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.040 obviously slow that down so you can see what's happening there. 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.760 The the longest tongue is also a salamander. So I'm 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.600 a nerd, but I find that fascinating because you think 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:49.160 about tongue feeding for a long tongue, you might think 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:54.080 of a chameleon or famous for their long tongue and inaccuracy, 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.800 but the salamanders have them beat and they're just really 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.280 really cool. Oh yeah, that that is because with the chamleons, 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.760 they seem to get a lot more time in the documentaries, 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.840 they get a lot more of the like the BBC 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.120 Planet Earth footage. You are correct, and they are fascinating 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.600 in their own right, but you've got to give the 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.240 longest tongue to the salamander. You know, often when I 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.439 think about other animals, I think about what must be 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.359 the relationship between their brain and central nervous system and 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.679 the kind of body they have and how they use it, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.520 and we we just don't have anything like that we 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.960 can identify with like that kind of tongue movement, but 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.480 also the speed of it, I don't know, it's it's 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.080 fascinating to imagine what's happening in the animal's brain if 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.760 it's making a lightning fast flick of the tongue to 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:47.000 catch something, but then also maybe uh angling or moving 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.040 its tongue after it has been launched in those species 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.040 that can do that. Um. In some ways, I'm kind 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.600 of grateful that we don't have to flick our tongue 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.639 at living prey. Um, but they're probably lee is not 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:02.960 a lot going on, it's just can I fit that 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.400 in my mouth? And if so boom so that species 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.840 that I was mentioning with the longest tongue, those tongue 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.199 muscles and that tongue architecture is anchored to their hips 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.199 start at the hips and that's how they're able to 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.200 protract it very long. So UM, when you're mentioning those 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:26.359 incredible slow motion salamander feeding videos, I am. I think 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.960 that you're talking about a friend of mine, Steve Deband, 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.119 has done that research, so I think that might be. Yeah, 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:36.479 he's he gets masterful videos with the high speed camera 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.640 and he's the one who has done those uh anchoring 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.120 from the hips research studies as well. But I would 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:47.399 just say, if it's of interest to any listeners to 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.520 look up Steve Deband's YouTube channel and see those videos 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:55.600 because they are so sensational Alright, We're gonna jump in 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.640 real quick and take a break, but we'll be right back, 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.639 thank you. All right, we're back now. Some salamander research 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.000 that that I've really enjoyed reading about in the past 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:09.159 has has concerned the life cycles of salamanders, is specifically 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.159 the tiger salamander. Could you take a moment to tell 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.120 our listeners a little bit about cannibal morphs. Now you're 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:22.520 really getting into my realm. Okay, so cannibal morphs as well. 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.680 It's fascinating. Plus it's called cannibal morphs animals that are 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.280 obligated to live in a in a wetland that's going 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.800 to dry out in two or three months. Um. There 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.000 are a lot of animals that will only breed in 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.280 those types of wetlands and those are my specialty. Um, 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:45.040 they do fascinating things. So that to kind of guarantee 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:47.399 that they'll be able to get in and out of 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.400 that wetland and metamorphos in time before it tries out. 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:57.000 So there's that clock is ticking. Um. Tiger salamanders have 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:01.399 a lot of unique adaptations. Uh, if if the resources 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.400 are low, if the water is drying out faster than 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:08.200 they think, they have time is running out, they can 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:12.680 trigger a cannibal morph, where the largest larvae will grow 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.680 an extra row of teeth in larger massiter or jaw 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.359 clowing musculature, so that they can start chomping their brothers 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:27.480 and sisters and that's awesome. But they also secrete hormones 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.840 to prohibit that behavior in any of their cohort So 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.040 they're the top dog and they're going to stay the 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.240 top dog. But if you remove that from the wetland, 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.800 the next largest one will become cannibal morph, which is 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.040 really fascinating. So what you're left with is just one 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:49.240 monster tiger salamander. So what happens when all the cannibalism 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.080 is done? What happens to that cannibal more um, as 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.600 far as I know, it just becomes a very fit 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.880 adult salamander. So it's uh. I don't know of any 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:05.160 research that has compared cannibal morph adults to regular adults, 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.280 but I imagine that at that point they'd be comparable, 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.920 meaning that the goal is to just get to metamorphosis safely. 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:16.160 And is that is the tiger salamander a Georgia salamander. 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:20.240 It is um. There are several subspecies and there in 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:25.800 many states throughout the whole country, but here in Georgia 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:28.880 they've recently been added to the state Wildlife Action Plan, 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.480 so we're just starting to get concerned about them here 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:36.359 in the state. As far as as diversity goes, what 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.159 what is salamander diversity in the state of Georgia like 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.080 and and how is that compared to other regions of 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:45.600 the United States or or even the world. Georgia is 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:50.159 an excellent place to become fascinated with salamanders UM for 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:56.040 two main reasons. One is, geologically, Georgia is divided into 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.840 five different ecoregions, and each one of those has different 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.000 salamander diversity, so you can really witness a lot of 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:07.120 different diversity UM with a very committed day or two 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:10.800 day trip. But as you get to northeastern Georgia, that's 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:14.720 where UM one of the main hot spots for global 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:19.920 salamander biodiversity starts. So if you get to Raven County 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.080 and go north, you'll start entering the one of the 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:27.439 hot spots for global salamandid diversity, not only in numbers 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:31.520 of species, but just in abundance. So just every log 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:35.800 will have multiple salamanders or several species underneath. It's a 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:40.320 great place to carefully go log flipping. Well, that makes 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:45.359 me think, Um, obviously every region is going to be different, 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:47.359 and every specie is going to be different. But if 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:51.840 people want to see cool amphibians in the wild, where 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:54.000 are some good places and times for them to look? 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.160 What should they do to see these animals in the wild. 0:24:56.160 --> 0:24:59.200 And obviously we won't encourage messing with them in the wild. 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.200 But you see them, see them, yes, because we all 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:08.159 want to leave no trace when we go see these amphibians. UM. 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.520 My favorites are winter and spring breeders. So I would 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:17.200 encourage people, um to go in the winter in early 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:22.280 spring to witness these migrations. Um. That's often a good time, 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:26.680 and you can get some clues by our frog friends. Okay, 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:29.800