1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe mccormaican. Today 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna be having a little bit of amphibian talk. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: That's right, We're gonna be chatting with Mark Bandka, the 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: executive director of the Amphibian Foundation. Uh The Amphibian Foundation 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: is an Atlanta area based nonprofit organization dedicated to connecting individuals, communities, 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: and organizations in order to create and implement lasting solutions 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: to the global amphibian extinction crisis. Uh So, it was 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: just a great opportunity for us to reach out to 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: a local expert in their field to discuss the wonderful 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: world of amphibians, especially salamanders. Right, so we talked frogs, tadpoles, 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: especially salamanders, some death defying winter weather adventures. So I 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: think we talked some wolverine towards the end. Yeah, there 15 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: will be cannibal morphs. So if you're getting all geared 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: up for Halloween, don't worry. There will be some. There 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: will be some some Halloween worthy content in this episode, 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: and you'll just learn a great deal about Amphibian Biology. Um, 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: just a little more info here before we get rolling. 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: If you if you want to check out more about 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: the Amphibian Foundation, you can go to Amphibian Foundation dot org. 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: You can also follow them on Twitter. Their handle is 23 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: Amphibian found on Instagram, It's Amphibian Foundation and it's Amphibian 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: found on Facebook as well. And Mark is also on 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: Twitter himself. You can follow him Mark Mandica. That's m 26 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: A r K M A N D I C A. 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: So I'd say let's get right into our chat with Mark. Hey, Mark, 28 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the show. I was 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: wondering if before we get into any questions or Amphibian 30 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: talk today, could you just introduce yourself to our listeners, 31 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: tell them who you are and what you do. Absolutely. 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: My name is Mark Mandika. I am the executive director 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: of the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta. Excellent. Well, thanks 34 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: for taking time out of your day to come chat 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: with us. I was already familiar with with with some 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: of what what you guys were up to in the 37 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: Atlanta area through some of your Salamander strolls and other 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: educative outreach programs. Uh uh, you know in the Atlanta 39 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: area but but then I started looking into it more 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and learning a little bit more about the Amphibian Foundation, 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: I realized this was a really great fit for stuff 42 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: to blow your mind. All right, Well, actually, can you 43 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: tell us just a little bit about what you do 44 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: at the Amphibian Foundation. Absolutely? Uh. The Amphibian Foundation is 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: a nonprofit. We just had our second anniversary, and we 46 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: focus on novel conservation research plans for endangered species, both 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: here in the Southeast United States and globally. UM. We 48 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: also have an educational component that we use for several reasons. 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: One is it's our main way to support the foundation 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: through these programs. But we firmly believe that we need 51 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: to raise the next generation of conservationists and that's our 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: main target through our outreach program is getting people excited 53 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: about amphibians and excited about saving them because they're in 54 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. And when you say you work 55 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: on a novel conservation solutions, give me an example of 56 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: what you mean by that. Does that mean like non 57 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: non standard approaches to yes? Um. So, for example, our 58 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: highest priority research program is on the frosted flatwood salamander, 59 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: which is um significantly imperiled. There's one tiny puddle left 60 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: in the state of Georgia with this species in it. 61 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: They're already extinct from South Carolina. Something needs to be 62 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: done immediately and quickly. So we've developed UM twenty artificial 63 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: wetlands where we can monitor them very closely and make 64 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: sure that these salamanders have everything they need. It's the 65 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: only captive colony of the species on the planet, so 66 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: it's really important that we're successful. UM. We've developed these 67 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: UM miniature ecosystems which have never been developed before, so 68 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: they're brand new. We're very optimistic, but that's what I 69 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: mean by novel. We had to figure out something that 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: we needed to do immediately because the species is considered 71 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: at imminent risk of extinction UM, so it's imperative that 72 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: we're successful, and we felt like this was our best 73 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: shot at having them breathe successfully in captivity while our 74 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: partners restore habitat UM so that we can have someplace 75 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: to release them back into the wild UM. So that 76 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I mean by novel. So with 77 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: that species in particular, would you say that your main 78 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: goal is to like build up the populations to where 79 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: they can get a foothold in their environment or would 80 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: it be more of a research focus to like under 81 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: and what you can do to let them thrive again. 82 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: We want to do research, but right now we're really 83 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: just trying to keep the species alive. We're trying to 84 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: figure out how to breed them, which has never been 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: done before UM. So we've been charged with figuring out 86 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: how to breed them, and once we've cracked that, we 87 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: are going to basically export this recipe to other institutions 88 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: with some of our captive produced offspring, so that we 89 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: can really start generating large numbers of frosted flatwood salamanders 90 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: every year and have big numbers to release back into 91 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: restored habitat. Do you know what has driven them to 92 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: this point to begin with? Does I have to do 93 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: with habitaty good idea. So, frosted flatwood salamanders are long 94 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: leaf pine endemics, So long leaf pine is the coastal 95 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: plain of Georgia, but that's been reduced to three of 96 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: its historic range, so that whole habitat is almost gone. Obviously, 97 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: any species that are reliant on that habitat are not 98 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: doing well. To further that, UM, flatwood salamanders are dependent 99 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: on wildfire, and that has been suppressed by and large 100 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: even in the remaining long leaf pine habitat. Flatwood salamanders 101 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: need that fire. So if you suppress it, or if 102 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: you do controlled burns at non natural times, which is 103 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: also very common, that really negatively affects the salamanders. So 104 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: we're trying to identify long leaf pine with land managers 105 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: that are willing to either let wildfires through there or 106 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: do controlled burns at the natural cycles. Does that make sense? 107 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: But I wonder do you know why they need the fire, 108 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: what role that plays? I do? Uh, they need open 109 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: pine savannas, which was very common and is maintained naturally 110 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: by wildfire every year or two, that's how often that 111 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: long leaf pine would burn naturally. So if once you 112 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: suppress the fire, then the trees bviously start to grow in, 113 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: they close the canopy, and that's no longer suitable for 114 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,679 Speaker 1: flatwood salamanders. Now, this is just part of a larger 115 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: ongoing mass extinction of amphibians. Um is now is the 116 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: mass extinction of amphibians? Is this something that goes beyond 117 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: the rate of extinctions and other species? Is this something 118 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: special or how is it linked to you know, the 119 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: the typical habitat loss climate change based extinctions we're seeing elsewhere, right, 120 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: excellent question. The the animals that I am familiar with 121 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: are are mostly vertebrates. I'm sure this is also a 122 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: trend with the invertebrates, but they're all suffering due to 123 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: habitat loss and shifting climates. But amphibians are so intensely 124 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: sensitive to the environment. There are more declining amphibians than 125 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: mammals and birds combined, so they're just disappearing at a 126 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: pro fund rate right now. That if you looked at 127 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: the IUCN Red List website, they have forty of the 128 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: world's amphibians are in catastrophic decline or already extinct, so 129 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: that's almost half. It's just a huge number. That's why 130 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: we started the Amphibian Foundation. Is there a generalizable answer 131 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: um about what makes amphibians particularly vulnerable to these changes 132 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: in habitats and the climate. Yes, there have been some 133 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: identified factors um. And then what's in and this has 134 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: been since the eighties since these causes have been identified 135 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: in what's being explored now is how they are working 136 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: synergistically to be even more expedient to killing amphibians. But 137 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: their skin. It's really about their skin, so you'll never 138 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: see a frog drink, for example. They absorb everything through 139 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: their skin. Anything that we've put into the environment is 140 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: going to be absorbed up into that amphibian. So um. 141 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: There's been lots of research done on pesticides and herbicides 142 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: and their effects on amphibians that are often sub lethal, 143 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: but they'll grow extra limbs. It will effeminize male frogs. 144 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: You know, there are lots of estrogen mimicking compounds that 145 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: we don't even think about. We just spread it on 146 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: our lawns. Um, and that will turn amphibians female when 147 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: they're intended to be male. So that's kind of spooky. UM, 148 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: and you can see how that would affect the reproductive 149 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: output for a population. I've read a lot about UM. 150 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: I guess I didn't know what the cause was, but 151 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: general interruptions and the reproductive cycles for amphibians. I think 152 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: I was reading about maybe the Eastern hellbender. Is that 153 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: one that's had reproductive problems, Yes, and that has other 154 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: very very specific problems to the hellbenders. One of our 155 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: favorite amphibians, and it's Georgia native, so I'm quite fond 156 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: of it. But they need pristine streams. I mean, how 157 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: many pristine streams do you think there are left? You know, 158 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: very very few. So they have zero tolerance for sedimentation 159 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: or pollution that you often find in Georgia streams these days. 160 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: And are there temperature dynamics in their their breeding that 161 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: come into play as well, Yes, So that is being 162 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: investigated now to trying to predict the responses of salamanders 163 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: to climate change. Um, it seems like some are going 164 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: to be more dependent on others. Hellbenders specifically need very 165 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: cold water and that's also going to become a scarcity 166 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: as things heat up. It's also worth mentioning that the 167 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: Georgia colloquialism is snot otter for hell So I always 168 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: like to say that whenever there's an opportunity. Well, I've heard, 169 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: if I'm remembering right, I've heard them sort of vilified 170 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: by fishermen or something like they do they have a 171 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: do a pretty good bite. Yeah, yeah, they're and they're 172 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: the largest North American amphibians, so they get quite quite large. 173 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: So when when we're talking about potentially losing so many 174 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: of these amphibian species, and particularly salamander species, like, can 175 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: you explain the role they play in the larger ecosystem, 176 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: so we can get a sense our listeners can get 177 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: a sense of some of the um, the spiraling, you know, 178 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: ramifications of losing these species. So this is a talking 179 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: point I often give, and I didn't want to miss 180 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: anything because, um, honestly, sometimes I'm engaging the public and 181 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: people that are like, who cares if the amphibians are disappearing? 182 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: But they do a lot of remarkable jobs for us 183 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. You know, Um, we don't think about 184 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: how many there are in the ecosystem because you really 185 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: have to go out at night in the rain to 186 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: witness amphibians. Um, but right off the top, my go 187 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: to answer is that a thousand amphibians eat five million 188 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: insects a year roughly, which is a tremendous number of insects, 189 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of them specialize in eating mosquitoes. There. 190 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: I think that buys them their ticket to safety right there, right, 191 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean, so if you think about that alone, um, 192 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: that's usually the first thing I say. But um, they 193 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: are there are so many animals that are dependent on 194 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: them for food. So if you think about it ecologically, 195 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, tadpoles are are vegetarians. Their primary consumers eating 196 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: vegetable matter. Then they metamorphosed into carnivores, so they are 197 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: turning that sun energy into usable energy that lots of 198 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: other predators eat everything, loves to eat everything that's a 199 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 1: carnivore loves to eat amphibians either their eggs or their 200 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: tadpoles or the adults. So they are right in the 201 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: middle of the food chain and really important to the 202 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: ecology of any system. So to back up a little bit, 203 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: how did you wind up working with amphibians. I've always 204 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: loved amphibians, so, but I grew up in New Jersey 205 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: and never saw an amphibian growing up. The part of 206 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: New Jersey where I grew up probably been a hundred 207 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: and fifty years since there's been an amphibian there, so 208 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: I'm really developed. Um, But I just always loved frogs, 209 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: and so my birthdays when I was little, I'd always 210 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: get rubber frogs and frog pjas. I'm moving all the 211 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: way up, So I've always had that passion. But when 212 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: I was an undergrad in an entirely different field, I 213 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: thought I would take herpetology past fail because I was 214 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: not a science person. Um, and I did, and it 215 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: just completely changed my life. So I was pretty late 216 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: in life. I was thirty and never heard the term 217 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: herpetology before. And it blew my mind that you could 218 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: devote your time to investigating these fascinating animals. And it's 219 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: really my life is divided to before I took that 220 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: class and after and since then, I've been really focused 221 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: on amphibians and I had a lot of great opportunities 222 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: early on. What really cinched it for me is that 223 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: I was eager to do field work and I got 224 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: an opportunity to do to study too ephemeral seasonal temporary 225 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: wetlands in a remote part of Massachusetts for two years. 226 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: And in Massachusetts it gets really cold there. Um, so 227 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: my study started in March where the ground is still frozen, 228 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: there's still snow, and I witnessed a salamander migration, a 229 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: spotted salamander migration over the ice and snow in March, 230 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: where hundreds of animals were marching over the snow. I 231 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: was freezing, and these things they can't even generate their 232 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: own body heat, but they were just in mass you know, 233 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: two so driven to breed and I just couldn't. It 234 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: blew my mind. You know, and watching them there. Some 235 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: of the animals were as cold as nineteen degrees and 236 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: they didn't care. You know, that's pretty amazing. But just 237 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of animals. This is a species that's gorgeous, but 238 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: they're active for one or two weeks a year, so 239 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: your chances of seeing one of these are so slim 240 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: to see hundreds, and it's really it's even to this day, 241 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: it just carries me because it's such a beautiful species 242 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: that I got to witness. That's an amazing image. So 243 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: as as far as them surviving in the cold, I 244 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: don't know if I'm remembering this right, but I've got 245 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: a friend too long ago she worked with salamander research 246 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: and she told me about I think she said that 247 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: the salamanders they used in research could be frozen, frozen 248 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: solid and then thaw it out alive. Is that sometimes 249 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: the case? Or am I misremembering that? You are not 250 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: misremembering that. It's pretty well documented mostly in frogs. Freeze 251 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: tolerance is um being able to free and then thought 252 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: and really have no negative effect of that. There are 253 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: several species here in Georgia that can do that. Not salamanders, 254 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: though that I'm aware of, the frog. A few frogs 255 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: here in Georgia can freeze, but the salamanders that I 256 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: was just describing are not freeze tolerant, the spotted salamanders, 257 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: but they can super cool. So that's being able to 258 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: go below freezing point and not freeze is a fluid 259 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: mechanics term called super cooling. Super cool. Obvious thing to 260 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: say about it, but it's really a neat phenomenon as well. 261 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: So that's how they could be nineteen degrees fahrenheit and 262 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: keep moving exactly because that, you know, you would think 263 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: that the water in their body would freeze, but it 264 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: does not. There's a limit to that, but nineteen degrees 265 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: clearly is not that limit. Well, I want to hear 266 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: more about salamanders in general. What's amazing about salamanders? Tell us? Well, 267 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: if if I haven't convinced anyone yet, um my, what 268 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: my favorite things about them are Amphibians in general is 269 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: how they feed, how they can move their tongues. When 270 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: you slow it down with a high speed video camera, 271 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: you can really see them do amazing things. Um before 272 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: you've seen it before. Um. When I'm also a science illustrator, 273 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: and um, when I was an underground I had the 274 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: opportunity to illustrate an article on this insane frog that 275 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: can change the direction of its tongue after it launches it, 276 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: so pray is moving. When you slow a frog feeding 277 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: video down, you usually see them close their eyes before 278 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: their tongue comes out, so it's like a hail mary. 279 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: That's a ballistic tongue protraction. There are others frogs and 280 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: salamanders that have a hydrostatic tongue, uh control of their 281 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: hydrostatic tongue, and some of them can pichet like eighty degrees, 282 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, and so you can swing out to the 283 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: I'm using visual in an audio medium, but it's pretty 284 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: amazing to watch these animals can like just whip their 285 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: tongue out in mid um mid strokes. So salamanders, when 286 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: you guys might not know, the fastest tongue known to 287 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: science as a salamander, and they are named for it. 288 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: That are the politic glossans, which means bullet tongue. And 289 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to see um regular speed footage 290 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: of them feeding, you just see things disappear, that's all 291 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: you see and stuff. Yeah um, And then they can 292 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: obviously slow that down so you can see what's happening there. 293 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: The the longest tongue is also a salamander. So I'm 294 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: a nerd, but I find that fascinating because you think 295 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: about tongue feeding for a long tongue, you might think 296 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: of a chameleon or famous for their long tongue and inaccuracy, 297 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: but the salamanders have them beat and they're just really 298 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: really cool. Oh yeah, that that is because with the chamleons, 299 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: they seem to get a lot more time in the documentaries, 300 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: they get a lot more of the like the BBC 301 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: Planet Earth footage. You are correct, and they are fascinating 302 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: in their own right, but you've got to give the 303 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: longest tongue to the salamander. You know, often when I 304 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: think about other animals, I think about what must be 305 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: the relationship between their brain and central nervous system and 306 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: the kind of body they have and how they use it, 307 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: and we we just don't have anything like that we 308 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: can identify with like that kind of tongue movement, but 309 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: also the speed of it, I don't know, it's it's 310 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: fascinating to imagine what's happening in the animal's brain if 311 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: it's making a lightning fast flick of the tongue to 312 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: catch something, but then also maybe uh angling or moving 313 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: its tongue after it has been launched in those species 314 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: that can do that. Um. In some ways, I'm kind 315 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: of grateful that we don't have to flick our tongue 316 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: at living prey. Um, but they're probably lee is not 317 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: a lot going on, it's just can I fit that 318 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: in my mouth? And if so boom so that species 319 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: that I was mentioning with the longest tongue, those tongue 320 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: muscles and that tongue architecture is anchored to their hips 321 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: start at the hips and that's how they're able to 322 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: protract it very long. So UM, when you're mentioning those 323 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: incredible slow motion salamander feeding videos, I am. I think 324 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: that you're talking about a friend of mine, Steve Deband, 325 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: has done that research, so I think that might be. Yeah, 326 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,479 Speaker 1: he's he gets masterful videos with the high speed camera 327 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: and he's the one who has done those uh anchoring 328 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: from the hips research studies as well. But I would 329 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: just say, if it's of interest to any listeners to 330 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: look up Steve Deband's YouTube channel and see those videos 331 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: because they are so sensational Alright, We're gonna jump in 332 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: real quick and take a break, but we'll be right back, 333 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: thank you. All right, we're back now. Some salamander research 334 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: that that I've really enjoyed reading about in the past 335 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: has has concerned the life cycles of salamanders, is specifically 336 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: the tiger salamander. Could you take a moment to tell 337 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: our listeners a little bit about cannibal morphs. Now you're 338 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: really getting into my realm. Okay, so cannibal morphs as well. 339 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: It's fascinating. Plus it's called cannibal morphs animals that are 340 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: obligated to live in a in a wetland that's going 341 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: to dry out in two or three months. Um. There 342 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: are a lot of animals that will only breed in 343 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: those types of wetlands and those are my specialty. Um, 344 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: they do fascinating things. So that to kind of guarantee 345 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: that they'll be able to get in and out of 346 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: that wetland and metamorphos in time before it tries out. 347 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: So there's that clock is ticking. Um. Tiger salamanders have 348 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: a lot of unique adaptations. Uh, if if the resources 349 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: are low, if the water is drying out faster than 350 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: they think, they have time is running out, they can 351 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: trigger a cannibal morph, where the largest larvae will grow 352 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: an extra row of teeth in larger massiter or jaw 353 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: clowing musculature, so that they can start chomping their brothers 354 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: and sisters and that's awesome. But they also secrete hormones 355 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: to prohibit that behavior in any of their cohort So 356 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: they're the top dog and they're going to stay the 357 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: top dog. But if you remove that from the wetland, 358 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: the next largest one will become cannibal morph, which is 359 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: really fascinating. So what you're left with is just one 360 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: monster tiger salamander. So what happens when all the cannibalism 361 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: is done? What happens to that cannibal more um, as 362 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: far as I know, it just becomes a very fit 363 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: adult salamander. So it's uh. I don't know of any 364 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: research that has compared cannibal morph adults to regular adults, 365 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: but I imagine that at that point they'd be comparable, 366 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: meaning that the goal is to just get to metamorphosis safely. 367 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: And is that is the tiger salamander a Georgia salamander. 368 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: It is um. There are several subspecies and there in 369 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: many states throughout the whole country, but here in Georgia 370 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: they've recently been added to the state Wildlife Action Plan, 371 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: so we're just starting to get concerned about them here 372 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: in the state. As far as as diversity goes, what 373 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: what is salamander diversity in the state of Georgia like 374 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: and and how is that compared to other regions of 375 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: the United States or or even the world. Georgia is 376 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: an excellent place to become fascinated with salamanders UM for 377 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: two main reasons. One is, geologically, Georgia is divided into 378 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: five different ecoregions, and each one of those has different 379 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: salamander diversity, so you can really witness a lot of 380 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: different diversity UM with a very committed day or two 381 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: day trip. But as you get to northeastern Georgia, that's 382 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: where UM one of the main hot spots for global 383 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: salamander biodiversity starts. So if you get to Raven County 384 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: and go north, you'll start entering the one of the 385 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: hot spots for global salamandid diversity, not only in numbers 386 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: of species, but just in abundance. So just every log 387 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: will have multiple salamanders or several species underneath. It's a 388 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: great place to carefully go log flipping. Well, that makes 389 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: me think, Um, obviously every region is going to be different, 390 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: and every specie is going to be different. But if 391 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: people want to see cool amphibians in the wild, where 392 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: are some good places and times for them to look? 393 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: What should they do to see these animals in the wild. 394 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: And obviously we won't encourage messing with them in the wild. 395 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: But you see them, see them, yes, because we all 396 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: want to leave no trace when we go see these amphibians. UM. 397 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: My favorites are winter and spring breeders. So I would 398 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: encourage people, um to go in the winter in early 399 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: spring to witness these migrations. Um. That's often a good time, 400 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: and you can get some clues by our frog friends. Okay, 401 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: so if you're in the US, we have some very 402 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: loud spring frogs. We have spring peepers, they're so loud. 403 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: We have wood frogs, we have um chorus frocks. Those 404 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: are three species that can at least give you a 405 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: good hint where you might find some salamanders migrating. UM. 406 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: So that's probably where I would start. So listen for 407 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: words loudest. It's just the easiest way, unless you know, 408 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: you can drive very slowly on the roads at night 409 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: and then you might be able to see some because 410 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: they are migrating. These are salamanders that have to migrate. 411 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: And people think of migration is will the beasts are 412 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: birds or something, But salamanders migrate. They just breed in 413 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: those wetlands, they don't live in them. So when I 414 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: think about frogs making noise, that makes me think about 415 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: something that's come up with a lot of other species 416 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: we've talked about, you know, birds and insects like crickets, 417 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: that uh, part of the habitat that they occupy that 418 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: we don't often think about is a is a sonic territory, 419 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: not just a physical territory. Uh. And that, for example, 420 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: with birds or crickets, noise pollution can really interfere with 421 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: their way of life. Would the same thing be true 422 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: for amphibians. That's an excellent question, and uh, I wish 423 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: it would. The research that I've read really shows no 424 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: clear indication. And I think the main reason is that 425 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: for the most part, the female frogs here. So you know, 426 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: the calls you're hearing are males. The advertisement calls the 427 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: males wooing females. The female ear is tuned to that call, 428 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: so they don't really hear the calls of other species. 429 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: So what sounds like a crazy caffey of different species 430 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: that I wentland. The female frogs are hearing them the 431 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: calls from their species and and don't respond to calls 432 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: from other species and don't really respond unfortunately to noise pollution. Well, 433 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: I guess it's very fortunate. It's extremely fortunate. But I 434 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: guess when I when I was saying that, the context 435 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: is that, um, this area where the research was conducted 436 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: was was hoping to be able to put some controls 437 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: on noise pollution. UM, and it's it doesn't interfere with 438 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: the frogs at all. My family and I recently went 439 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: on one of the salamader strolls to the foundation organizes, 440 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: and I was just really impressed because it was it 441 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: was within the city of Atlanta, and granted, Atlanta is 442 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: a pretty green city compared to the many their large 443 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: urban areas, but uh, you know, we just went to 444 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: this area, this little wetland area that's just in the 445 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: middle of everything, and there were so many salamanders that 446 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: the adults and children alike were able to to to 447 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: turn over and examine. Yeah, that's one of my favorite 448 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: little places inside of the city, and that particular nature preserve, 449 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: the Clyde Shepherd Nature Preserve, has been particularly committed to 450 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: removing invasive plant species. Um. So we've been working with 451 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: them for a number of years. And um, if you 452 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: saw spotted salamanders that day, I can't remember if we 453 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: saw an adult or not, but um. We had been 454 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: restoring that species to that nature preserve for probably the 455 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: last four years. But we finally have evidence that they 456 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: are now reproducing on their own. UM, which is very 457 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: exciting for the You know told you earlier how much 458 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: I love that species. But they would not have been 459 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: able to persist if the managers didn't remove all those 460 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: invasive plant species there, because they really challenged the amphibians 461 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: in ways that they can't. It's no longer suitable for them. 462 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: Once there's English ivy there is, it's very very hard 463 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: for them for for what like chemical reasons or the 464 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: way it alters the terrain or yes, the terrain. Um. 465 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: So they're uh, salamanders are adorable, but they're not the 466 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: most coordinated, you know, the animals. So if you make 467 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: it really challenging. And if you can imagine what a 468 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: dense mat of English ivy on the ground is like 469 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: for a little animal that's used to not having English ivy, 470 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: it can be too much. They were seen there, but 471 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: not in over twenty years, so he knew that at 472 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: one time that was a suitable habitat. But then you know, 473 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: the English ivy become and it changes everything for them. 474 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: Now we do mentioned earlier, you know, we don't want 475 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: to mess with the salamanders. But but if one is 476 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: observing salamanders in the wild, what are some some good 477 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: rules to employ in interacting with them reviewing them? Um? Yeah, 478 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: thank you. One common way to encounter them is when 479 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: they're crossing the road, um. And that is most undoubtedly 480 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: them in some type of breeding activity. So you don't 481 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: want to interfere too much with them. But if you 482 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: want to encourage them or help them cross the road, 483 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: that is not shunned because the chances of them successfully 484 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: encountering a car slim, you know. So we always move 485 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: them in the direction that they're heading. Um. If you 486 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: put them in the way way they were coming from, 487 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: then they're going to have to cross the road again. UM. 488 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: I always make sure that I don't have any salts 489 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: on my hands or rinse my hands off, and that's 490 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: that's a pretty safe way um to be. To be 491 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: um safe around salamanders is if you're unless you've got 492 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: the gear and gloves and everything. Because there are so 493 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: many problems for amphibians now that we at the Amphibian 494 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: Foundation and other amphibian conservationists and biologists, we have to 495 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: take many more precautions than just rinsing the salts off 496 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: our hands. We have to disinfect in between every wetland 497 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: all of our gear because of emergent infectious disease which 498 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: is becoming more and more prevalent and is wiping out 499 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: salamanders globally. But that's not something that the average person 500 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: has to be concerned with making sure because we always 501 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: have salt on our hands. So rinse your hands. If 502 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: you're going to handle a salamander, be very gentle and 503 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: don't move it too far because these things have home 504 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: ranges that they've they've honed their whole lives. So another 505 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: fascinating thing about salamanders for me is that um butt 506 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: and I percent of many species of salamanders returned to 507 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: that same little puddle they were born in, so they 508 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: have really significant site fidelity where they there they metamorphosed 509 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: and a tiny ephemeral wetland. The animals will returned there 510 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: for the rest of their lives to breed. It's very 511 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: important that those wetlands stay intact, you know. If that 512 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: wetland is paved, or if a road is put in 513 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: between the wetland and their upland habitat, then they're just 514 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 1: going to cross it, you know. So it's something that 515 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: not a lot of people think about. And when you 516 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: say they returned to a puddle, you mean literally a puddle. 517 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: I as my term for an ephemeral wetland, because some 518 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: of them are as small as a dining room table, 519 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, and that is a suitable wetland for these salamanders. 520 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: Some of them are significantly larger than that. But if 521 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: they dry out after a few months every year, to me, 522 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: it's just a big puddle. They're often just a foot 523 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: or two deep, you know, they don't really get very deep. 524 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, you mentioned a minute ago infectious diseases 525 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: affecting amphibians, So what what kind of major disease threats 526 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: are amphibians facing today? UM. There there are many UM. 527 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: Some of them have been documented for longer periods of time. 528 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: When I started in the nineties, UM I was monitoring 529 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: the population of wood frocks, another Massachusetts native that does 530 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: get down into Georgia. But one day all the tadpoles 531 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: were dead. So if you can imagine, you know, they're 532 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: fine day before, and then the next day they were dead. 533 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: And that was a ronavirus. It's a Now it's a 534 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: very well known virus that can be transmitted by us. 535 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: You know, you can get it on your boots and 536 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: track it from one and went into the next. And 537 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: then it's a novel to that. The species in there, 538 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: they haven't encountered a before. They have no resistance. They die. 539 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: So more recently into two thousands, UM it was a 540 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: more identifying funcal infection. Kittrid fungus is the most well 541 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: known lethal infection, probably recently been described as of Asian origin. 542 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: Asian amphibians have it and it doesn't bother them. You know, 543 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: they're they've evolved with it. But when we inadvertently move 544 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: it from one place to another, those amphibians have never 545 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: seen it before and it's lethal. So it's has the 546 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: potential and has killed amphibians and pristine environments you know 547 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: where you would think that the amphibians would be doing 548 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: quite well. Panama for example, Remote Panama, where of the 549 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: amphibians have been wiped out from kittrid fungus. It's devastating um. 550 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: More recently, there's a new strain of kittured angus that 551 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: this effects salamanders specifically, it's nicknamed B sal um. The 552 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: name is actually much longer. It's another kittred fungus uh, 553 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: and it can kill of the salamanders it affects. It's 554 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: been moved from Asia to Europe where it's wiping out 555 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: fire salamanders, which is a beautiful and very famous type 556 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: of salamander. And if a salamander gets infected with that fungus, 557 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: it will die. What does the infection look like? How like? 558 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: How does that attack it? The first kittred I was 559 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: telling you about, you cannot see it, so amphabian will 560 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: look fine, but it's not fine, and it basically prohibits 561 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: gas exchange across the skin. The frog will suffocate. Um. 562 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: B sal is visible with lesions on the skin, so 563 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: you can see, but it's still it's affecting the skin 564 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: of the animal. The fungus feeds on the skin changes 565 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: the dynamics of the skin. And again the skin that 566 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: seems like it's that's where they get it because they're 567 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: so sensitive. That's why we rinse our hands before we 568 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: touch them, because the salt is they're so sensitive to it. 569 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: I would have to guess though, that with the evolutionary 570 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: trade offs, with all these vulnerabilities about their skin, there 571 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: must be amazing things about their skin as well. There 572 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: must be good reasons for them to have skin like that. Yeah, 573 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: you're you are correct, and you know they do a 574 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: fair amount of their respiration right through their skin. So 575 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: and there are a whole bunch of salamanders right here 576 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: in Georgia that don't even have lungs. They just do 577 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: all of their respirations skin just bypass that whole lung thing. 578 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: So um, I've seen them. Even those salamanders just be underwater. 579 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: They're able to exchange the gas right through their skin. 580 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure how much of an advantage that is, 581 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: but they can get by without lungs, which is pretty neat. 582 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 1: You know, they just seem very very sensitive and are 583 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: always tied to the water, so you mentioned earlier there 584 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: was a role of amphibians and control of insect populations, 585 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: specifically mosquito populations. Do you want to say anymore about 586 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: the role of amphibians and preventing the spread of mosquito 587 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,959 Speaker 1: born disease and other diseases. Absolutely, So what we're talking 588 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: about earlier was a direct relationship where the salamander larvae 589 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,439 Speaker 1: are consuming mosquitoes so um or mosquito larvae controlling them 590 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: directly like that. But there are more and mounting evidence 591 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: about tadpoles, which you know are vegetarians, but they are 592 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: competing with with mosquito larvae, and they're making wetlands less 593 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: suitable for mosquito larvae. So a healthy wetland with healthy 594 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: amphibian population is less suitable for mosquitoes, less mosquito numbers, 595 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: less chances of mosquito born diseases. So, and there's even 596 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: some more evidence that it's just not suitable at all 597 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: for mosquitoes with a real healthy population of of tadpoles. 598 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,479 Speaker 1: So you think of tadpoles as pretty innocuous, but there's 599 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: also more evidence about what happens to a wetland when 600 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: the tadpoles are removed. So in these populations where kittred fungus, 601 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: for example, is wiping out the tadpoles, these streams are 602 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: becoming choked and clogged with algae that would normally be 603 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: controlled and the nick it's more stagnant, and you can 604 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 1: imagine there are more mosquitoes. Do you think generally amphibians 605 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 1: and mosquitoes are sort of looking for the same kind 606 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: of thing when they're choosing wetland environments to breed in, 607 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: perhaps in the larval stage it's possible. Yeah, alright, time 608 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: to take a quick break and then we'll be right 609 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: back with more of our talk with Marc Mandica than 610 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: and we're back. So earlier we were talking about the 611 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: cannibal morphs, but you mentioned that there are there are 612 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: ways that breeding in ephemeral wetlands produces amazing results in 613 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: in phenotypic expression in the amphibian. So what what are 614 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: these other ways? Well? Thank you, um so Well, First, 615 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: Darwin he theorized that animals that were um exposed to 616 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: the same dynamic UH systems repeatedly would to be able 617 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: to shift their phenotype between these things depending on what 618 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: they were it was ecologically called for, So, for example, 619 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: these ephemeral wetlands which are so dynamic that can dry 620 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 1: out in flood and freeze solid. The animals have developed 621 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: phenotypic plasticity where they, out of necessity, have to be 622 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: able to fluctuate. The cannibal morph is an extreme example. 623 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: UM but also UM many species when they detect a 624 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 1: predator in the wetland with them, dragonfly larvae, something that 625 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: likes to eat tadpoles, they can just grow bigger tails, 626 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: they can swim faster once they've detected prey, and I 627 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: find that fascinating too. Um. And there are toads, spadefoot toads, 628 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: which are vegetarian but can turn cannibal morph. So that's 629 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: even more right. I mean, it's like insane because they 630 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: have these little scraper beaks to eat algae, but then 631 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: can grow teeth and jamas. Like they have a built 632 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: in contingency to change what kind of animal they are 633 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: depending on their environment. Yeah, and then I find that fascinating, 634 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: you know, because it's all just about getting out of 635 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: that wetland in time. There are other species which have 636 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: involved temporarily to breed slightly off or slightly ahead of 637 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: the majority of amphibians, so that their larvae are just 638 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: a little bit bigger, so when everyone else comes to them, 639 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,240 Speaker 1: they can just start eating them. And I just find 640 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: that fascinating too. That's our marbled salamander, and that's another 641 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: native Metro Atlanta species that we've detected through our surveys here, 642 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 1: and they're beautiful. I would encourage anyone to google marbled 643 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: salamander because they're so beautiful. Now, when we talk to 644 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: people who are obsessed with certain kinds of animals, we 645 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: often end up asking them, do you have a favorite 646 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: uh prehistoric example, do you do you have a favorite 647 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: prehistoric amphibian? Yes, I think you wish was still around, 648 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: or maybe we shouldn't wish was still around. I think 649 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: we'd be all right tell us well, you know, I 650 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: also love to talk about how there were frogs and 651 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: salamanders hopping and crawling at the feet of the dinosaurs, 652 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: so they were here before the dinosaurs, and some of 653 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: them ate the dinosaurs. So we'll just think about that. 654 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: Um beasel buffo. I'm not sure if that's my favorite, 655 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: but just because it translates into devil toad used to 656 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: eat baby dinosaurs, so it's just really awesome. But um, 657 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: that was a really big one, wasn't It was a 658 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: big frog, but it resembled an extant frog, the horned frog, 659 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: So they look they looked very similar to a frog 660 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: we still have today, just much larger. Um. Do you 661 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: know how big? I think they were only maybe a 662 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,720 Speaker 1: foot or a foot and a half tall. That's pretty 663 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: big for a frog. Yeah. Um. But we have these 664 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,879 Speaker 1: other amphibians from an extinct lineage. There's Diplocollis, which you've 665 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: ever seen is uh as a boomerang head. They're really 666 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: really cool looking, you know. And then there's erie Ops, 667 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 1: which was more like a crocodilian ecologically, so I would 668 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: hang in the shallows and just ambush prey and was 669 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: about the cross between a salamander and a pit bull 670 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: maybe because they're six ft long and highly aggressive with 671 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: massive skulls that could inflict a very serious bite. Wow. 672 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: I love prehistoric amphibians do. So you mentioned was it 673 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: Diploica call us with the boomerang. Do we know what 674 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: that structure was for or is that a mystery? It 675 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: is a mystery, but I think what I've read theorized 676 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,879 Speaker 1: was that it was a hydrogen hydrodynamic property. So it's 677 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: a fully aquatic amphibian, So I used it to navigate 678 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: the water. That's pretty impressive though, yeah, because it was 679 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: it was skeletal. It's the skull is a big boomerang. Well, 680 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: so you mentioned this giant prehistoric salamander with the with 681 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 1: the big skull and the big bite. I I think 682 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: I've heard that. Well, we mentioned the hellbenders earlier. Like salamanders, 683 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: can they they some of them can give a good bite, right, yes, Um, 684 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: usually for a human it means nothing though, But like 685 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: tiger salamanders we've mentioned several times now because they're awesome. 686 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: They're highly aggressive. So we have a pet salamador, my 687 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: little boy does, and he just he wiggles his finger 688 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: right in front of his mouth and it just jumps 689 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: up and latches on. But it's not doesn't hurt at all. Um, 690 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: they don't have much bite force. But then there are 691 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: other salamanders. There's a native amphiuma, which is an aquatic 692 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: coastal plain species which I've been bitten by and it 693 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: hurts a lot, very very strong, strong bite. So I 694 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 1: guess it just depends on what species you're talking about. 695 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: What kind of prey animal would that bite before Um, 696 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: I've seen them take small mammals, I've seen them take fish, 697 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 1: So I think that they're just meant to not like 698 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: they won't let go. Whatever they bite is going to 699 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: stay in their mouth. Terrifying. It does sound more and 700 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 1: more like with the alamanders. We and I guess of 701 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: amphibians in general, when we we see them, say it's 702 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: zoos or other or whereas pats uh, we see him 703 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: in the tank and they're they're very stationary, they're not 704 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 1: moving much. It's easy to to just think of them 705 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 1: as this stationary species that's not active or aggressive. Yeah, 706 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: and you're not wrong, You're you're probably you're probably acknowledging 707 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: ninety plus percent of what they do, but it's that 708 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: other portion, you know. Um, So yeah, we're we're learning 709 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: now that salamanders, even though they're active for one to 710 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: two weeks a year, they can be very active during 711 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: that time, and they can travel large distances. You know, 712 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: for a salamander, um, you know, up to five football 713 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: fields in length, for example, And you know that's for 714 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: something that's as tiny and clumsy as a salamander. That's 715 00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: quite a distance. And frogs can easily travel three times 716 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: that amount. You know. So, UM, it might also be 717 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: worth mentioning that there is a third group of amphibians 718 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: that we just haven't mentioned yet today, So it'd be 719 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: worth mentioning the sicilians, which is the third type of amphibian. 720 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: There's frogs and toads, salamanders and newts, and then these limbless, 721 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: burrowing sicilians, which are largely a mystery because they live underground. 722 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: They come up when it floods, you don't see them. 723 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: They're pan tropical, they're on basically every continent as long 724 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: as it's warm enough, and they're fascinating, you know, but 725 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,399 Speaker 1: they and they also bite very hard, but it's only 726 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,760 Speaker 1: a problem if you're a worm or some other type 727 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 1: of prey. But I off I like to mention them 728 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: whenever possible. Because a few years ago the two d 729 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 1: species of sicilian was discovered, it's kind of a big 730 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: deal for the amphibian nerds. Um. Now I think there 731 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: are as many as two hundred and seven, so it's 732 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: really climbing up there. But it's a really interesting group 733 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: of amphibians that we like to teach the kids about 734 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 1: and we cover in our biology classes as well. Yes, 735 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 1: subterranean vertebrates in general, seems like there's a lot of 736 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: a lot of outstanding questions and new things to learn 737 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: about them. There's always weird new stuff about like the 738 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: naked mole rat and all that. Yeah, um, so I 739 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,359 Speaker 1: gotta give these things a look up. Look them up. 740 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,960 Speaker 1: So it's not spelled like someone from Sicily though, it's 741 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: c A E C I L I A N Sicilian. 742 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: All right, I'm ashamed I didn't know. Oh well, I 743 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: can talk about them more if you'd like. But they 744 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: they come in really bright colors as well. Some of 745 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: them are solid bright bright yellow. They live underground. While 746 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,760 Speaker 1: they bright yellow, there's other ones with blue with white 747 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,800 Speaker 1: rings all the way around them. And then a recent 748 00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:01,319 Speaker 1: paper came out last year, Um, Siphonops is that genus? This, 749 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: this sicilian can secrete mucus from its face to loube 750 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: up the ground so it can basically swim in the 751 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: dirt while excreting toxin at the tail end so nothing 752 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: can follow it. That is is just amazing, right, is 753 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,839 Speaker 1: mind blowingly cool. This This gets back to something where 754 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: we always touch on in the show, is that you know, 755 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: you think of fictional monsters, you know from comic books 756 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 1: or films or or books. And no matter how creative 757 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:39,319 Speaker 1: we think we've been in creating some sort of exotic creature, um, 758 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 1: it's it's it's almost always matched or exceeded by the 759 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,200 Speaker 1: natural world. And then the salamanders and amphibians in general 760 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: seem to be prime examples of this. Yeah, and there 761 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: I like to refer to them as the slimy underdogs. 762 00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: You know, it's very poorly understood, not often considered. Um, 763 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, um no resentment here. When you talk about 764 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: animal conservation, you usually see a picture of the panda 765 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 1: and there they are very cute. But you know, there's 766 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,839 Speaker 1: a whole world out there that needs our attention, and 767 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: that's why we have the Amphibian Foundation. Well, speaking of which, 768 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, at this point in the episode of Hopefully, 769 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, people who didn't really understand what amphibians were 770 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: all about and why they were important and why they 771 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: were amazing, they have a different view now. And people 772 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: who are already on board are are just more excited. Uh. 773 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: But if people out there want to help protect salamanders 774 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: and other amphibians, what what can they do? What should 775 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,960 Speaker 1: they be doing? And uh, and I realized that you 776 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: have a have local expertise and in their their global 777 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: answers to this as well. So perhaps if you could 778 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: start globally and then maybe speak to our more local 779 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: listeners as well. Absolutely, uh, And there are lots of 780 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 1: things that people can do if they're interested UM. At 781 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: this point, there are many community science programs. It depends 782 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,280 Speaker 1: on how much time you have, but if you would 783 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: like to monitor amphibians in your area, generally speaking, monitoring 784 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 1: programs are frog call surveys UM, and they're always looking 785 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: for people to participate in those surveys. There are regional 786 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 1: programs UM that exist worldwide, you know, and there are 787 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,719 Speaker 1: global networks. The Amphibian Survival Alliance comes to mind him 788 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: Amphibian ARC as another partner of ours, is a global 789 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: network UM that are about putting species who need attention 790 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: in connecting them with people who would like to provide 791 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: that attention UM, so that those will be uh the 792 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: first steps I would take UM. And then we have 793 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:58,200 Speaker 1: a growing list of resources on our blog for how 794 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: to make your proper more amphibian friendly, you know. And 795 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 1: that's a it's been a delight to put this together 796 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:10,120 Speaker 1: and also having people interested in those types of things 797 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,280 Speaker 1: because you know they generally involve doing less yard work. 798 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,480 Speaker 1: You know you want to do less, you want to 799 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: let it go a little bit at least final, let 800 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: it get rough around the edges. Yeah, leaf litter is 801 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,640 Speaker 1: gold to an amphibian. You know, if you're getting ready 802 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,759 Speaker 1: your leaves, then it's it's a lot less suitable for them, 803 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: So you can use that as an excuse to leave 804 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: your leaves in place. UM often and amphibian conservation programs 805 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,560 Speaker 1: are significantly underfunded too, so I would mention that is 806 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: something that if you have rasources for UH contributing to 807 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: amphibian conservation in that way, UM, contact your local amphibian 808 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 1: conservation programs and I'm sure that they'll be in need 809 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: of funding. UM. And those are those are the main 810 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: ones that I can think of. And you mentioned the blog. 811 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,719 Speaker 1: Can you share the web address with everyone to get 812 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: to the resources for UM making your yard more amphibian 813 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:17,080 Speaker 1: friendly or even constructing an amphibian pond. UM that has 814 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: been in such high demand that we created a direct link, 815 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: which is backyard dot frogs Need our Help dot org 816 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,840 Speaker 1: and in the Amphibian Foundation itself. The website is Amphibian 817 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: Foundation dot org. Now as we come to a close here, 818 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 1: we understand you have a music background, that you you 819 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 1: are a musician, and correct me if I'm wrong. I 820 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 1: might be this secondhand information. But did you tour China 821 00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,839 Speaker 1: in an American funk band? Um? Why yes, I did? 822 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:50,960 Speaker 1: Please tell us about that. Uh? Sure. I was fortunate 823 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,719 Speaker 1: enough to play in the very first American rock band 824 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,279 Speaker 1: to play in China. So it's kind of a big deal, right. 825 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,760 Speaker 1: That was in UH and it was part of a 826 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: cultural exchange program that went kind of bonkers because the 827 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,280 Speaker 1: way I understood it was the year before the guitar 828 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,120 Speaker 1: was legalized in China, so they were just starting to 829 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,680 Speaker 1: open up to certain things. Um, we wanted to come 830 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 1: over there with our instruments, and basically what happened was 831 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,359 Speaker 1: a five city tour for the whole summer. UM. So 832 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:33,000 Speaker 1: I was UM pretty young, and UH was basically treated 833 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: like the Beatles once we got there because they had 834 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 1: never seen an American rock band before. Um. It was 835 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 1: one of the greatest experiences of my life and it 836 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 1: was very very warm reception. We were the Misguided Youth, 837 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,960 Speaker 1: so that was our our name, and UM it was 838 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 1: really really wonderful. Yeah, it was great, thanks for asking. 839 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,120 Speaker 1: I should mention that my contemporary music is all very 840 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: salamander related, not conceptually musically, but I go under the 841 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,680 Speaker 1: name mud Puppy, which is one of my favorite Neotenic salamanders. 842 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: And um and you know, so that's that. That was 843 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 1: it more of a rock and roll, more funk, like 844 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: what is your your sound? Funk? Funk? Uh, it's funk 845 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,320 Speaker 1: and I guess at this point it always will be um. 846 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 1: And we have a recording studio which is Neotenic Studios, 847 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:31,920 Speaker 1: which is another very salamander nerd name, which means the 848 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:39,320 Speaker 1: retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood. Seems to fit me well. Yeah, 849 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,840 Speaker 1: so so speaking funk, speaking of of amphibians, what is 850 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,600 Speaker 1: the most uh funk amphibian? Which is the funkiest of 851 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 1: the amphibians. If I had to say, um, I would 852 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 1: go with this crazy frog that I've only seen on 853 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: Nature documentaries, the hairy frog. So it's a hairy frog. 854 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,320 Speaker 1: So that cool and a little bit gross, right, because 855 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,040 Speaker 1: it has literally hairy well it can't be literal hair, 856 00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 1: but it looks like hair. It's really these long tubercles 857 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,800 Speaker 1: that look like hair. Um. And what makes them even 858 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,600 Speaker 1: crazier is that um, as a defense, they can break 859 00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,799 Speaker 1: their own fingers, and they do often break their own 860 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:29,280 Speaker 1: fingers to make the tips really sharp, and then those 861 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:33,879 Speaker 1: sharpened bones come out of their skin and they can 862 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 1: use that as an attack. Now that you're saying this, Robert, 863 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 1: have you written about these frogs before. I think I did, 864 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,960 Speaker 1: coming back to the monster thing, it was. I think 865 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: the comparison was stuff like Wolverine. You know, you like 866 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: at Wolverine and you think, oh, that's so inventive, that's 867 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:53,359 Speaker 1: so cool. Um, but but nature came up with that. Yep, 868 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,239 Speaker 1: yep and yep. So that's exactly right. All right. So 869 00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you guys have been lowering them a 870 00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: little bit on your own too, because that is pretty 871 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,400 Speaker 1: pretty funky. Yeah yeah, well, thanks so much for joining 872 00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,680 Speaker 1: us to yea delighted to be here today. Thank you. 873 00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:17,799 Speaker 1: All right, So there you have it. Thanks again to 874 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,919 Speaker 1: Mark Bndka for coming on the show here actually being 875 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,120 Speaker 1: here in the studio with us to discuss amphibians and 876 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,239 Speaker 1: especially the salamanders. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. 877 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: We really appreciate him joining us, and we hope all 878 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 1: of you will take something away from today's episode, maybe 879 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,560 Speaker 1: maybe get involved a little bit with Amphibians in your 880 00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:39,680 Speaker 1: area because it sounds like there's a lot to do, 881 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,080 Speaker 1: that's right, And hey, if you want to know more 882 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: about Amphibi, the Amphibian Foundation, or you want to support 883 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,200 Speaker 1: the Amphibian Foundation again, that's Amphibian Foundation dot org. On 884 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,600 Speaker 1: Twitter and Facebook is Amphibian found and on Instagram as 885 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,359 Speaker 1: Amphibian Foundation, and you can also just look look around 886 00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,920 Speaker 1: and find out what you're you know, more localized Amphibian 887 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,359 Speaker 1: group happens to be. Support them. And if you want 888 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: to follow us, head on over to stuff to Blow 889 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where we'll find all the 890 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 1: episodes of the podcast, links to our various social media accounts. 891 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,200 Speaker 1: A tap for our store. That's a great way to 892 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,640 Speaker 1: support the show by buying cool merchandise with our logo 893 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,400 Speaker 1: on it. And if you want to support the show 894 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 1: in other ways, just simply rate and review us wherever 895 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 1: you have the power to do so. Big thanks as 896 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: always to our audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. 897 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,440 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 898 00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,560 Speaker 1: directly with feedback about this episode or any other uh 899 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic, for a future episode, or just 900 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: to say hi send some greetings. You can email us 901 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 1: at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com. 902 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,240 Speaker 1: In this episode, Mark talked a little bit about his music, 903 00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 1: and so we're closing out the episode here with a 904 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,680 Speaker 1: track that Mark provided us with. It is called stick 905 00:57:46,760 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 1: in the Mud refunct on Go