1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Over the years of the 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: District Attorney's office, I worked really hard to develop an 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: expertise in arson prosecutions. They're very, very difficult to prove. 4 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: Let me tell you why. First, when you see a fire, 5 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: you got to figure out was it a crime? Then 6 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: you get to the who done it? Part? Man is 7 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: case cracks wide open in a way that nobody ever 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:59,319 Speaker 1: believed that it would. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on 9 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: one where to say Dale, drive the fire the house 10 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: or what the house? The caller was a sixteen year 11 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: old girl who told the nine one one operator that she, 12 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: her parents, and her younger brotherhood all escaped, but barely. 13 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: You don't understand the entire front of our houses. Just okay, 14 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm glad everybody got out. That dad was Scott Perk. 15 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: You'll be hearing a lot about him. Perk said his 16 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: family had been sound asleep when he heard a loud boom. 17 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: It was like we heard an explosion, woke us up 18 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: real cool a moment. Perk said he'd scramble to get 19 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: everyone up and out. By the time the first fire 20 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: units rolled up, the perk home was a roaring bonfire. 21 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: Now what I'm hearing sounds like right at the get go. 22 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: When you hear about an explosion that could have been 23 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: in naturally internal fire, not necessarily an arson. When something explodes, 24 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: you think of possibly did of an explode some type 25 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: of machinery explode and set the house on fire. But 26 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: where the fire has burned the most intensely and on 27 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: the most destruction, that's typically where the fire started. Let 28 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: me introduce an all star panel to break it down 29 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: and put it back together again with me judge and 30 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: trial lawyer, Court TV anchor Ashley Wilcot at Ashley Wilcot 31 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: dot com. Where now psychiatrists joining me out of the 32 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: Atlanta Jurisdiction. Doctor Angela Arnold at Angela Arnold MD dot com. 33 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: Private investigator Gumshoe, Richard Truants at Crispin Special Investigations dot com. 34 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My 35 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon now the star of a new hit 36 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: series called Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. Joseph 37 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, but first Decrime Online dot com investigative reporter 38 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: Levi Page. We were just hearing our friend Josh Maguentz 39 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 1: at Dateline. So we get the nine one one call 40 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: from the teen girl and the dad takes the phone 41 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: explains what happens. But Levi listened to this from Dateline. 42 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: Fire fighters smell a smell. Listen, Levi. Firefighters smelled gasoline 43 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,399 Speaker 1: as soon as they got out of their trucks. So 44 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: a call immediately went out to Stow Police Detective Ken Mifflin. 45 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: When I got there, I saw the fire department still 46 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: putting out the blaze. Someone had taken probably a pipe 47 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: wrench to disconnect the gas line and it was blowing 48 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: out natural gasp. Just it sound like a It was 49 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: a very large roaring sound at that point. That gas 50 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: hadn't ignited. No, you know, it could have possibly blowing up. 51 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: The person who set the fire poured gasoline all the 52 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: way to the gas meter and on top of the 53 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: gas meter. The idea was fire starts at the gasoline, 54 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: goes to the gas maine and possibly destroys the house 55 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: and everybody in it. Absolutely, it sounds to me leavi 56 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: Page it's somebody wanted that whole family dead. But it 57 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: didn't happen that way, because you know, even brilliant criminals 58 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: can make mistakes, and here it sounds like the gas 59 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: Maine blue. It had been undone. It had been sabotage, 60 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: but it hadn't quite made it to the gasoline that 61 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: had been poured. Am I understanding it correctly what they 62 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: find at the scene, Leavi Page? You're absolutely correct, Nancy. 63 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: And it's a home in Stow, Ohio. This is a 64 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: suburb of Akron. This house caught on fire. It's three 65 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: am in the morning and at the time, the four residents, 66 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: Scott Park, his wife Tammy, sixteen year old daughter, and 67 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: twelve year old son all escaped, thank god, uninjured. So 68 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: you know that would would be the dad, the mom, 69 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: and two children in the home that were this close 70 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: to dying in a fiery blaze. Now let's talk about Stowe. 71 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: It's not far from Akron, Ohio, and Stowe has a 72 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: very low crime rate, isn't that true, Levi Page. Yes, 73 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: it's a suburb, it's considered a safe suburb. A lot 74 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: of families lived there, and it's outside of Akron, Ohio. Akron, Ohio. 75 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dave Matt at Crime Online. Imagine 76 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: waking up to this Scott Perk is awakened to a 77 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: loud explosion at three am. His house is on fire. 78 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: Perk gets his wife of seventeen years, Tammy, and their 79 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: two children, a daughter sixteen and a son twelve, out 80 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: of the home. Has his daughter called nine one one. 81 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: His daughter makes the call, but Scott gets on the 82 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: line and explains that the family made it out the 83 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: home safely. The fire department arrives to find the home 84 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: fully engulfed in flames and a very strong odor of gasoline. Suspicious. 85 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: Fire officials called detectives from the Stow, Ohio Police Department 86 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: to come to the scene. Sergeant Ken Mifflin arrives and 87 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: is filled in by fire officials that when they arrived, 88 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: the gas meter was unhooked from the gas line and 89 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: gasoline appeared to have been poured all around the foundation 90 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: of the house to the gas meter, with gasoline poured 91 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: on top of the gas meter as well. You don't 92 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: want to go to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. I mean, 93 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: I know you love bloods batter like me, but I 94 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: also love an arson scene. And the first arson I 95 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: ever prosecuted was a woman who single handedly burned down 96 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: an apartment complex over a lover's quarrel okay, and then 97 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: sat back with a beer on the hood of the 98 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: car to watch the whole thing burn. Another arson case 99 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,679 Speaker 1: that I prosecuted involved an accelerant, like what we're talking 100 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: about here in this case is gas case. It was 101 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: tiling and even after the burn, Joe Scott, it looks 102 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: like somebody poured coke, Coca cola or pepsi or something 103 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: on the floor and let it dry. Even after the fire, 104 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: you can still see sometimes where accelerant was and this 105 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: may have gone unnoticed except for the heavy smell of gasoline. 106 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: And when you are used to investigating arsons, you pick 107 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: up on so many things. What should the arson investigator 108 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: do right now? Well, what they're going to be looking for, 109 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: Nancy upon, you know, after the fire is put out, okay, 110 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: the arson investigator arrives afterwards, obviously, and what they're going 111 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: to be looking for, specifically, when you talk about things 112 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: like accelerant, gasoline, this sort of thing, you're going to 113 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: be looking for what are referred to in this case 114 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: as poor patterns. And in some cases, in some cases 115 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: where you have say a cupful of of gasoline and 116 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: someone throws it on a wall, that develops what's called 117 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: a splash pattern, and that is as you'd mentioned earlier. 118 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: Can you slow down. I mean it's like drinking from 119 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: a fire hydrant too much, too fast. You said, you 120 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: can see a poor pattern, which is what I saw 121 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: in the home I describe it was a mansion. By 122 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: the way, Why do rich people just want more and 123 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: more and more money. Hey, that's that's for doctor Bobert, 124 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, forensic psychiatrist or doctor Angela Arnold, she's a 125 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: psychiatrist as well. Hey, dodgor Angie, I want you to 126 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: go back and get your degree in forensic psychiatry because 127 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: we needed big time. So Joe Scott, you said, poor pattern, 128 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: splash pattern, Okay, go ahead. Yeah. So you know, the 129 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: goal here obviously is to initiate a fire with this accelerant. 130 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: But the fact, and this is fascinating, the fact that 131 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 1: the firefighters, uh you know, we're able to smell and 132 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: this accelerant out there gives us an indication of what 133 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: well it means it hadn't been consumed, it was there, 134 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: So they kind of bungled this from the beginning. I 135 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: find it fascinating. You know, this guy said that someone 136 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: took a wrench and actually loosened the nut on this 137 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: attachment for the natural gas to kind of leak out, 138 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: and that goes to purpose and when this thing initiates, 139 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: it's blowing out. Remember he said there was a loud, 140 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: roaring sound and that's what it sounds like. And it's 141 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: terrifying to hear this. But it didn't get to the 142 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: point where all of the gas was consumed. Time Stories 143 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace Guys. A family wakes up to a 144 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: loud explosion in their home and they find out the 145 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: gas nine has been tampered with intentionally to blow up 146 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: the whole family. Now, who in that home has an 147 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: enemy that would do that? I want to go out 148 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: to Richard Trunks, private investigator, former cop I believe in 149 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale now at Crispin Special Investigations dot com. Richard, 150 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: don't you just love it when you've got a perp 151 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: who obviously is smart and they thought everything out, but 152 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: then one little detail goes wrong when the gas maine 153 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: blew the gasolene that he and I'm saying, yes, I'm 154 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: saying he. I'm going out on a limb. Because this 155 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: is typically statistically a male crime. You get a woman 156 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: Jackie it's a little embarrassing to a womankind. The most 157 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: they do is to like get their cheating boyfriend or 158 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: husband's clothes and go burn them in the front yard. Anyway, 159 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: back to the topic trunks. Don't you just love it 160 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: one of their carefully planned schemes screws up like here, 161 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: the timing, the gasolene catch fire, and the whole family lived. Well, 162 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: you gotta love it, and thank god. You know, these 163 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: criminals they make mistakes. And because they make mistakes, you know, 164 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: they talk too much and next thing you know, you're 165 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: solving a crime. Now. I don't know that this was 166 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: really a mistake, Richard. I think this just had to 167 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: do with can I say, the purps bad luck and 168 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: my good luck and the family's good luck. They didn't 169 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: go up in flames. I mean, you know, Ashley Wilcott, 170 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: judge and trial lawyer, court TV anchor, you see it 171 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: every day in corn and at Court TV, where one 172 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: little thing and a very carefully crafted crime goes wrong. 173 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: The gasoline didn't catch fire when it was supposed to. 174 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: That's right, and that's why criminals are caught nine times 175 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: out of ten. Because something does go wrong. They think 176 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: they can plam for everything. They think they can make 177 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 1: it happen exactly the way they want it to happen. 178 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: But guess what, that's not what happens. And because of 179 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: something not going the way they anticipated, then we have 180 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: better evidence in a way to catch criminals. Now we 181 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: can figure out it's just this an outright pyro. I 182 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: don't think so a pyromaniac that loves starting fires. I 183 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: think it's something to do with this family, because if 184 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: things had gone to plan, they would all be dead. 185 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: But let me go back to doctor Angela Arnold renounced 186 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: psychiatris joining me out of the Atlanta area. What's the 187 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: deal with Pyros? What? Because we hear about it like 188 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: starting a huge fire that consumes thousands and thousands of 189 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: acres and puts people out of their home, and it 190 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: all started with them just wanting to start a fire. 191 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: What is the deal with Pyros? It's really kind of disgusting, Nancy, 192 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: because Pyros, it's it's alten related to a sexual kind 193 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: of deviance. You know, you know, I don't know what 194 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: it is with you, doctor Angie, but you somehow connect 195 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: everything back to sex. I would not think of somebody 196 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: starting a fire and has to do with their sex life. 197 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: Are you sure it's not just you doctor Angie projecting? Sure? No, no, 198 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: I promise you. How starting a fire have you anything 199 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: to do with sex? It's it's that power? Is that 200 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: can you edge and burn down a whole I mean 201 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: a whole like field or something? Just their way to 202 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: get off? Is that a technical medical term that you 203 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: just throw at me. Their way to get off? Yet 204 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: in the DSM get off diagnostic something manual? Manual? Yes, 205 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: I need that's too for something. Okay, So guys, the 206 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: whole home goes up, and luckily the dad, here's the blow, 207 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: and he gets his wife. I think, didn't he say 208 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: leave a page of seventeen years and two children out 209 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: of the home, Nancy. They were all out of the home, 210 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: they escaped, They all lived all right. So the hunt 211 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: is on for a pyro, possibly with a grudge against 212 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: somebody in that house. But then a twist in the case. 213 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: Listen to Josh Mankowitz. Amy Salvagio remembers well the night 214 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: her duplex apartment in Stow, Ohio caught fire. It was 215 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: March twenty seventh, twenty ten, A rare night off for 216 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: the twenty four year old intensive care nurse. I was 217 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: at my boyfriend's I got a call in the middle 218 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: of the night from a neighbor saying that the house 219 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: was on fire. We were only about two minutes away, 220 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: so drove over very fast. Amy says she jumped out 221 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: and ran toward the firefighters who were working her half 222 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: of the duplex, where the worst damage was. The first 223 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: thing that they asked me was who would want to 224 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: kill you? Who would want to murder you? And I 225 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: just kind of looked at him, like, what what are 226 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: you talking about? And then they asked me, don't you 227 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: smell all the gasoline? And that's when I stopped, and 228 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: I realized that that's all you could smell was this 229 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: strong odor of gasoline. A season arson investigator will pick 230 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: up on things that civilians won't, such as a smell 231 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: of gas Now, when you go to a gas station, 232 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: you smell it, and you expect to smell it. But 233 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: notice here, she wasn't even aware the victim the second 234 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: family attack. She wasn't even aware of the heavy smell 235 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: of gasoline until the cops pointed it out to her 236 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: and said, who wants to kill you? Did you notice that? 237 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: What about it? Joe Scott. Yeah, yeah, because you know, 238 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: why else, why else in the world would there be 239 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: an accelerant present at the scene. You know, this goes 240 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: I think, you know, to kind of get into your 241 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: area relative to law is intent. Why is it that 242 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: you would have the smell that's out there? You know, 243 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: obviously they had picked up on this. So this goes 244 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: to this idea that somebody is framing this event to 245 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: do great harm to this individual. Interesting, guys. Stowe is 246 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: a city in Summit County, Ohio, population thirty four eight 247 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: three seven. It's a small town. So how is there 248 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: a piro and nobody knows who it is? Doctor Angie, 249 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: doctor Angel Arnold. When you're looking for an adult piro 250 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: or it may not be an adult, what would the 251 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: signs be of someone who's willing to wipe out a 252 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: whole family in order to as you say, Angie, your words, 253 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: not mine, get off, you know, Nancy, would I would 254 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: look for some Well, first of all, one of the 255 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: most important things you'd want to look for is what 256 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: kind of things are they buying at the store, what 257 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: kind of things are being delivered to their home, what 258 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: kind of things are they looking at on the internet? 259 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: Because I'm telling you, Nancy, these people are going to 260 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: look like they're just your typical joe. Particularly in a 261 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: small town like that, typically everybody lost them. They're probably 262 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: coaching some two into their kills. They there's nothing that 263 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: could make this person stand out. They are doing a 264 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: really horror and good job of fitting into the community. 265 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: You know, Ashley will kind of want to follow up 266 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: on what doctor Angela Arnold just said. You know, as 267 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: serial killers, we can almost always trace back that they 268 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: tortured animals when they were younger. They had a main streak, 269 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: to put it in lay person's terms, and you see 270 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: a callous disregard for life, and you can't identify their 271 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: behavior almost till the time that they're prepubescent. But for arsenists, 272 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: it's not that easy, Ashley, it really isn't, Nancy. It's 273 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: a whole different set of red flags, so to speak, 274 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: that you can look back and say, well, this was 275 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: a red flag they were killing animals at age seven. 276 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: With arsenists, it is a unique set of characteristics or 277 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: qualities that seem to lead into this. And so often 278 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: I have read studies where there is an arsonist who 279 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: is finally caught and when you interview or speak to 280 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: people that knew them growing up, there were not a 281 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: lot of red flags to make these people say, oh, 282 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. Very often you find ineffectuality, someone that 283 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: feels powerless, someone that let's just say, dropped out of school, 284 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: dropped out of college, goes from job to job, is 285 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: angry with their personal life. There are red flags, but 286 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: it's Ashley and doctor and you're pointing out very hard 287 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: to find with an arsonist crime stories. With Nancy Grace, 288 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: what happened to the Perk family, and now what happened 289 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: to Amy and Silvaggio. As a matter of fact, you 290 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: leave a page the gas meter at Amy Salvajo's duplex 291 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: was also tampered with. It was disconnected and hanging and 292 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: gas was escaping into the air. That's exactly what happened 293 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: at Scott Park's home when his family asleep. Yes, Nancy, 294 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: you're correct. The second fire was a block away from 295 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: that home. It happened almost a year later, on the 296 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: same day, and the mo was the same. There was 297 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: gas board around the foundation, gas board around the gas lining, 298 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: gas meter, gas line unfooked from the gas meter. And 299 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: because it happened in the same neighborhood. Investigators were connecting 300 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: the diets and saying this could be linked. We could 301 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: have an arsonist on our hand. Now, you can't ignore 302 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: the almost fingerprint nature of these two arsons were in 303 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: both cases people were nearly killed. You got the gas 304 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: meter tampered with in both cases, gas escaping into the 305 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: air in both cases, a disconnect to gasline, gasoline port 306 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: around the foundation of the duplex and the home. Both 307 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: of them are home dwellings. In other words, they're not 308 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: apartment complexes. They're not commercial complexes. You're not burning up 309 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: a car. Both times, you've got a structure, a residential 310 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: structure with GasPort around the foundation. They're one block from 311 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: each other, and it's almost exactly one year later from 312 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: the perk arson, and it's at the same time in 313 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: the morning. Would you say, Richard Trump said that's a 314 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: fingerprint crime. There's definitely a fingerprint crime. And what happened 315 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 1: is because of the similarities involved here, the actual police 316 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: lieutenant that handled the first fire, and because he handled that, 317 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: he was there for the second fire, and he started 318 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: to connect the dots. To you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 319 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: what would the arson investigator do Now, well, let me 320 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: tell you what they're going to do, Nancy. The thing 321 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: about it is, remember how we talked about earlier on 322 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: with that first fire, that there was a smell of 323 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: gasoline there. Well, what this individual has done they have 324 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: left back. They have left in place a specific chemical signature. 325 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: What that means is that if this person is very 326 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: used to this, this is they're returning to the trough, 327 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: if you will. They're going to try to connect Kim 328 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: at a chemical level at least, and this is just 329 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: one of the things they're going to try to connect. 330 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: Is there a match between the accelerant used at the 331 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: first case and the second case, And again that's going 332 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: to go into the thread that's weaving all of this together. 333 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: You couple that with the behaviors. For instance, let me 334 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: give you another piece here. If that pipe was disconnected 335 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: with the same tool, for instance, remember we're talking about 336 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: them being familiar with this and being comfortable, there might 337 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: very well be little inventions along that nut that match 338 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: up to the same tool, maybe use the same thing. 339 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: And again we could call it a tool mark expert 340 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: for something like that. You know, another factor is that 341 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: these are only one block from each other. It's not 342 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: like they're ten miles, They're one block. And I love 343 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: using the example of Robert Blake the killer I A 344 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: Robert Blake barretta movie star, Robert Blake. His wife Bonnie 345 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: Lee Bakeley shot dead behind a restaurant while he and 346 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: she had been inside eating at the Italian restaurant Vitellis, 347 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: that was the name of it. She goes to the car, 348 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: he walks her, then he has to come back and 349 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: to the restaurant and boot. While he's gone, she's shot dead. 350 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: The point is the murder weapon has found a couple 351 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: a few yards away from the murder and a dumpster. 352 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: So the killer is somebody that couldn't get too far 353 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 1: away from the crime scene to dispose of the murder weapon. 354 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: So that drastically narrows down your pool of suspects, I e. 355 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: Robert Blake. So in this case you have someone committee 356 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: two arsons within one block. Joe Scott, do you remember 357 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: the guy in Florida that was shooting people off bus 358 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: routes they get off the bus had follow him and 359 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: shoot him dead. He killed multiple people that way, we 360 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: knew it had to be somebody that took that bus, 361 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: or familiar with the neighborhood because they were also close together. 362 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: So what does it tell you these two arson scenes 363 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: where they literally blow up the place with people in 364 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: it or try to what does that tell you about 365 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: the purp Well, it goes to comfort Nancy again, this 366 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: idea that they're familiar with this geographical area. There's a 367 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: high likelihood that if they don't live there, they at 368 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: least frequent that area on a daily or weekly basis. 369 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: They know the streets, they know the comings and goings 370 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: of the individual. They have an opportunity also to target 371 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 1: individuals in that location. Remember, these things are revolved by 372 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: around individuals that are within your circle. Many times, those 373 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: things that you can see, those things that you interact 374 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: with all the time, and there is a comfort level. 375 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: This is completely different, say, for instance, where we have 376 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: a serial killer that's roaming the entire nation. Those are 377 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: the exception as opposed to the norm. This serialized event 378 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: right here goes to familiarity with that location. You're absolutely right, 379 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: it's not just setting a field on fire. Like doctor 380 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: Angela Arnold was talking about earlier, the thrill that some 381 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: people would get from that. These are targeted individuals in 382 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: their home. So let's look at the individuals. What's the 383 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: common factor? Then police start thinking back thinking. Listen to 384 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: our friend at a dateline on the night of the fire, 385 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: the detective told Ldell Scott Perk had casually added a 386 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: titalizing detail to his life story. Scott, just out of 387 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: the blue says to me, well, his first wife had 388 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: committed suicide in nineteen eighty five, and she was pregnant, 389 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: nine months pregnant. As if, like, you know, not only 390 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: is my house in embers, but this isn't even the 391 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: worst thing that happened to me. I was shocked. So 392 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: as his home is burning and he saved his family, 393 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: he casually mentions, this isn't the worst thing that ever 394 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: happened to me. My wife committed suicide when she was 395 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: nine months pregnant. Now right there, stop everything. The method 396 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: and assessment of homicide and suicide is very clear statistically, 397 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: and I talk about statistics a lot because they can't 398 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: lie statistically Richard Trunt's PI former Cop Crispin Special Investigation. Statistically, 399 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: it is almost statistically impossible that a female nine months 400 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: pregnant and that social strata is going to commit suicide. 401 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: It's what just sticks out, I mean, out of the 402 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: clear blue. This guy mentions he lost his wife to suicide. 403 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: But the nine months, I think is what really stuck 404 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: out to the investigator really jumped out at him when 405 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: he mentioned that nine months. That is not common or 406 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: anybody commit suicide, especially when you're nine months pregnant, not 407 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: at all. You're overwhelming in a desire is to protect 408 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: the child. So that suddenly comes back to one of 409 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: the cops, and the cops starts thinking about it. Take 410 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: a listen to Dave Matt Crime Online. On the morning 411 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: of March eighteenth, nineteen eighty five, Meg Perk, twenty four 412 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: years old and nine months pregnant, woke up not feeling well. 413 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: According to her husband Scott, he called the doctor and 414 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: he got her an appointment. Then he took a bath. 415 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: While he was in the tub, he saw Meg walk 416 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: by the bathroom down the hallway. About five minutes later, 417 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: Scott gets out of the tub and calls out for 418 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: his wife. Getting no reply, he walks down the hall 419 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: and he sees Meg hanging from a banister with a 420 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: rope tied around her neck, grabbing a knife from a 421 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: nearby table. Scott Perk cuts his wife down and calls 422 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: EMS and begins performing CPR. When EMS crews arrive a 423 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: few minutes later, Scott Perk meets them at the door. 424 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Meg Perk is taken to the hospital, where her baby 425 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: is declared dead. Megperk hangs on for another twenty four hours, 426 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: but on March nineteenth, nineteen eighty five, Meg Perk dies. 427 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: The assistant Summit County Corner Doctor Robert Uise rules her 428 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: death suicide by hanging. There's so many things about that 429 00:27:48,080 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: that are wrong. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys were 430 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: talking about two Arson's one block apart. But what does 431 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: that have to do with a pregnant woman that commits 432 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: suicide at nine months too? Joe Scott Morgan death investigator. 433 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: What's the difference between a medical examiner and a coroner? Well, 434 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: the coroners are elected, Nancy, and they're all over the country. 435 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: They don't have to be forensic pathologist. And this guy, 436 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: this Ruise guy that did this initial assessment and this 437 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: examination on this woman. Hey, listen, let me ask you something, Nancy. 438 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: If you had to have heart surgery, would you go 439 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: to a surgeon that had never been trained in heart surgery. Well, 440 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: this guy did the autopsy. He had never had any 441 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: training in forensic pathology at all. And when you're talking 442 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: about somebody that has hung themselves, these cases are very 443 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: delicate because you have to be able to have the 444 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: tools at command to assess the injuries around the neck. 445 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: But we heard a lot about that over the past 446 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: couple of years, and so this is critical in this case, 447 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: and this is what created the problem this case to 448 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: begin with. This guy had no training and should not 449 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: have been doing this assessment. It's a very delicate procedure 450 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: when you are talking about or examining injuries to the neck. 451 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: Think of Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein, in the controversy even now 452 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: that's going on. Did he commit suicide or was he murdered? 453 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: Because when you hang, you expect a U shape ligature 454 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: marking around the neck and it is theorized and evidence 455 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: shows Epstein's markings were straight across. So what do we 456 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: find out? How difficult is it to get her body 457 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: exom Take a listen to our friends at dateline. In 458 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: September twenty eleven, the remarkably well preserved by of Meg 459 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: and her baby son were exhumed. It was amazing. Tax 460 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: she meet her. It really was thinking that, you know, 461 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: we are going to do her and her family justice. 462 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: She was holding that baby in her arms in the casket. Yes, 463 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: hard to see. It is very tough. It really it 464 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: brings everything home. A lot had changed since that day 465 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, when the Summit County coroner had 466 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: declared Meg's death a suicide. First of all, instead of 467 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: a coroner, the county now had a board certified medical examiner. 468 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: The staff was all new that her trained. Forensic technology 469 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: was much improved, and thanks to an excellent embalming job, 470 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: the marks on Meg's body were still there. To get 471 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: a body exom is, somehow sometimes a very difficult thing. 472 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: You've got to go through a lot of legal hurdle. 473 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: The next of ken is the one that typically goes 474 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: along or opposes it. But technically, once a body has 475 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: been entombed, it then belongs oftentimes to the state, so 476 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: it could be up to a judge solely as to 477 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: whether exhimation is appropriate. We're hearing when her body was exhumed, 478 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: this is Perk's wife that committed suicide at nine months pregnant. 479 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: They could still see the markings on her throat. What 480 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: did they discover to leave I page? What did they 481 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: learn about the markings on her throat? So, Nancy, the 482 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: body of Margaret per Se, it was well preserved and 483 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: it had actually shown the injuries to her throat, and 484 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: it was consistent with strangulation because investigators looked at her 485 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: neck and the bruising was going in a downward direction 486 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: instead of an upward direction, as if she had hanged 487 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: herself with a rope. It was going in the direction 488 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: of someone holding her throat down, strangling the life out 489 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,719 Speaker 1: of her eat Morgan. One of the one of the 490 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: theories is is that this was more consistent with her 491 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: as opposed to having a rope having a belt around 492 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: her neck, Nancy. And this is something that's commonly seen 493 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: with a literature strangulation, where we're talking about whether the 494 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,239 Speaker 1: noose itself or the apparatus is pulled downward and you 495 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: create a mark that is more parallel to the shoulders, 496 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: whereas with hanging we have what's referred to as the tinting, 497 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: and I mean like an old fashioned tent pup tent 498 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: tinting feature where it comes to a point above the head. 499 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: So this is that's absent, so they miss this in 500 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: the initial autopsy. And the fact that this body was 501 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: so well embombed is really the saving grace in here, Nancy. 502 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: That literally freezes the time. It freezes the time so 503 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: that you can still see the hemorrhage from all these 504 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: years back. And they were able to appreciate this because 505 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: now they've got a board certified forensic pathologists looking at 506 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: this case. And what, if anything can you tell me 507 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: about a bruise that was discovered on Margaret Anne Perk's 508 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: back at the small the bottom of her back. It 509 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: was determined that somebody had their knee on her body 510 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: and was holding her down as they were strangling her 511 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: with an object similar to a belt. So how do 512 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: we fee I am thinking, jos Goot Morgan. She's got 513 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: the bruising at the bottom of her back, and she's 514 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: got ligature markings that instead of going up like a 515 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: you that she would have from hanging, is going sideways 516 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: or even a little bit down like someone's pulling her back. Now, 517 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: the only way to prove that is to experiment and 518 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: reperform the autopsy. To leave my page, what can you 519 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: tell me they cops did regarding the banister from which 520 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: she hung herself. So this banister, all those years later 521 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: this happened, the suicide, alleged suicide happened in nineteen eighty five. 522 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: All these years later, in around twenty eleven, they actually 523 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: tried to see if this banister would hold together if 524 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: someone hung themselves, and it would not indentation marks at 525 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: the very least on that banister. And they ended up 526 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: finding another banister exactly like that one and doing the 527 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: test on it, and they learned there would have been 528 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: at least indentations. And they're thinking back on what Perk 529 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 1: said about how he was in the shower, I think 530 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: and he saw her walk by. So who breaks into 531 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: the house and kills his wife in this manner while 532 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: he is in the shower. Then they start thinking back 533 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: about the night the Perk home went up in flames. 534 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: Listen to Dave Mack. Sergeant Ken Mifflin gets Scott Perk 535 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: to join him in his warm car while they watch 536 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: crews try to put out the fire. As they talk, 537 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: Perk tells the sergeant that he recently lost his job, 538 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: the family is in serious debt, and the insurance company 539 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: told him to videotape everything in the house in case 540 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: of fire. Mifflin asks how recently, Perk says recent. Mifflin 541 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: notices the family van parked in the driveway appears loaded 542 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: down with stuff, and Perk tells him that he was 543 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: taking a trip to North Carolina with his son to 544 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: his irrelatives. As Mifflin looks at items in the van, 545 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: he sees old family photos, family cookbooks that have been 546 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: in the family for generations, not things one would normally 547 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: take on a vacation. And to you, very quickly, Richard Trumps, 548 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: I learned that day one in arson investigations, one guy 549 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: prosecuted had taken every one of his fancy suits to 550 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: the cleaners, moved all his shoes, all of his personal 551 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: family photos of his not his wives, and a lot 552 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: of other things valuable to him, and then whoops, the 553 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: fires started. That's one of the first things investigators look for. 554 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: His has a Perk removed personal belongings. Well, that just 555 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: completely jumps out at you. You know, the guy's taking 556 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: things out of his house that he wants to keep, 557 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: and then gives a story that, oh, I, you know, 558 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: we put everything in the van because we're going on 559 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: a trip, a trip with all the family photos and cookbooks. 560 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: Richard trumps, you're right again. So guys, they take another 561 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: careful listen to the nine one one call. Listen to 562 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: our friends at dateline. It was a few days after 563 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: the fire at Scott Perk's house that Stowe's chief arson investigator, 564 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: Jim Lydell, back from vacation, called Detective Ken Mifflin and 565 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: he says, you've got to hear this, and he so 566 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: he played me the nine one one tape. Jaley Mifflin 567 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: had heard something on that initial nine one one call 568 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: from Scott Perk's daughter, something he wanted Lidell to hear too. 569 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: During a long Scott Perk can be heard called whispering 570 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: to someone, Oh god, you're he's talking about a pet ferret, 571 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: and his tone seemed to be more rueful oversight than 572 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: anguished alarm. That was a bit of a flag a flag. 573 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: Oh no, you forgot the ferret. You forgot the ferret. 574 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: Obviously they were trying to take belongings and pets out 575 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: of the home. A throwaway comment snares a killer arson 576 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: suspect makes detect us suspicious when he starts talking about 577 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 1: his pregnant wife that commits suicide. Years and years before then, 578 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: A careful listening to that nine one one tape blows 579 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: the case wide open, LEVI, Page where is Scott Perk now? So? 580 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: Nancy Scott Perk pled guilty to arson, attempted murder, child endangerment. 581 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: Remember his kids were young teenagers, one, sixteen, one, twelve, 582 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: and he was sentenced to twenty eight years in prison 583 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: for that arson. Not only the arson to his home, Nancy, 584 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: but that arson that happened a block away. And you 585 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 1: know how police knew that he was responsible for that arson. 586 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: He had moved his family to an apartment complex, and 587 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: the night of that arson, they went to the apartment 588 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: complex and examined all the cars in that apartment complex. 589 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: All of them had frost on them because it was 590 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: so called, except his vehicle. It had no frost on it, 591 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 1: which means that night he had driven somewhere. Amazing police work. 592 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: So the night when the second fire happens, they go 593 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: to his place and his car's the only won the 594 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: parking lot without snow and frost on it, in fact, 595 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: is still warm. Inside they find muddy boots and a 596 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: gas can inside perks home. LEVI, what about the charge 597 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 1: of the murder of Margaret Anne per pregnant with his child. Yes, 598 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,879 Speaker 1: so he went to trial on that Nancy, and he 599 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison for 600 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: strangling her with a belt. Well, here's one that didn't 601 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: get away. Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off goodbye friend,