WEBVTT - Episode 841: Common-Sense Reforms to the Justice System 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.800 In this episode of news World. Reform Alliance is a 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:13.040 coalition of philanthropists, activists, bipartists and experts, advocates and policymakers 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.240 working on common sense solutions to transform the criminal justice 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.040 system and probation and parole with the goal of dramatically 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.400 reducing the number of people trapped in the criminal justice 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.520 system and significantly increasing the number of people moving from 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.680 supervision to work and well being. I'm really please welcome 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.159 my guest and good friend, Jessica Jackson. She is a 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.839 remarkable pioneer and has made a huge difference in the 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.640 lives of people. She's joining today to discuss the U 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:58.600 Belong program they just launched for Second Chance Month. Jessica, 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.560 welcome and thank you for joining us again on newch World. 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:03.160 Thank you for having me on. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.399 You know, I think people be very anteresoed. Can you 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.280 share a bit of your own personal journey, What drew 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.720 you to the work of criminal justice reform and how 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.400 did that experience shape your mission at Reform Alliance. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.040 Yeah. I first became invested in this work about twenty 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.520 years ago when my former husband and father of my 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.759 first child was incarcerated for a drug related offense. In Georgia. 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.840 That was a shock to me. I saw the failures 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.240 of the system up close, and I saw that he 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.080 never got the addiction treatment that he needed while he 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.720 was inside, and that he actually struggled to find work 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.120 when he was released, despite having been an electrician prior 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.160 to going into the prison and working the entire time 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.120 he was in the prison. He had a parole violation 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.920 at one point that was basically a paperwork mix up 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.840 by the sheriff's office that sent him back to jail 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.040 for almost two months and completely derailed all of the 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.680 progress that he had made. So, you know, at first, 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.320 when he went into prison, I thought, gosh, there's been 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.400 a terrible mistake. They must not realize that, you know, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.360 they've sent this man who's a wonderful father and son 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.839 and employer and not a danger at all to society 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:16.880 into the prison. But then I came there for a 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.040 visit and I looked around and I saw that there 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.960 were so many families just like mine that were in 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.120 the same position, and that millions of Americans actually had 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.040 a story similar to mine. Because there's more than one 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.320 hundred and thirteen million Americans that have had a family 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.120 member who are incarcerated and about seventy nine million Americans 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:38.680 who have a criminal record. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.639 But meanwhile, before you go on, I just want to 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.720 make sure that our audience understands how truly remarkable you 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.520 are and why. From the very first time I met you, 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.839 I just thought working with you was a great privilege. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.160 You were a high school dropout with a two month 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.920 old daughter, and when your husband goes to jail, you 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.079 go to school, and you end up graduating both from 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.600 college and from law school. You're pretty remarkable. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.600 Well, thank you. You know, I think I was blessed 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:11.520 in the fact that I didn't realize how tough the 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.880 journey would be, and frankly, it gave me a purpose. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.760 I knew that I was in a position to do 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.320 something about the system, and that I had a duty 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:21.800 to do. So. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.000 How did you find the internal strength raising a daughter, 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.240 going to school? All that must have seemed like a 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:30.320 real mountain to climb. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:35.720 Yeah, it was. And I remember when he actually got sentenced. 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.320 We didn't know he would be sentenced that day. We 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.480 thought we were just going for, you know, hearing, and 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.200 he ended up taking a plea and being sentenced in 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.240 the same day. And I brought my daughter, and he 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.520 drove a big four to f two point fifty. At 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.400 the time, I couldn't drive it. I was a small 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.080 car girl. So he drove us to the courthouse in 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.320 Gwinnett County and Georgia, and I remember I was carrying 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.920 our two month old daughter. We go in and they 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.880 had the proceeding, and I really didn't understand what was happening. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.520 All I knew is that suddenly the bailiff came up 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.440 next to him. I heard him say he was guilty, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.960 and I heard the judge accept the plea and then 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:20.080 they said remanded to custody. And the bailiff came up 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.279 to him and he handed him his wallet and his 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.719 phone and his wedding ring and he just turned around 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.040 and blew me a kiss. And that was it. And 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.720 so now I'm standing there and I'm holding car keys 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.320 to a truck. I can't even drive home, and it 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.360 was just so overwhelming. I remember going to the bathroom 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.520 and I'm trying to nurse my daughter and I was 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.719 looking down at her and my tears were just falling 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.560 on her face. And I remember just thinking, oh my god, 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.000 what am I going to do? How am I going 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.520 to provide for us. And it took me a couple months, 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:52.800 and then I realized I wanted to go to school 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.920 and I wanted to get it done. And my mom 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.240 made kind of a checklist for me, like, you need 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.200 to go to college, you need to take the l set, 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:00.800 you need to go Aloft school, you need to take 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.280 the bar. And I just focused on putting one foot 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.239 in front of the other and just getting it done. 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.240 It's a remarkable story, and I can personally attest that 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.960 you came out of it all as a remarkable person. 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.159 Part of your career has been a passion for the 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.120 Reform Alliance and the work it does. Talk about the 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.000 Reform Alliance, how it came together, what it's trying to do. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.880 Yeah, so I'm incredibly proud of all the work that 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.719 we've done here at Reform Alliance. You know, we focus 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.479 exclusively on making communities safer by improving our supervision system. 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.160 Probation and parole actually make up the largest segment of 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.600 our criminal justice system, twice the number of those who 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:43.000 are incarcerated, and yet nobody is really advocating for changes 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.239 to that system. In fact, so much that it's become 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.679 a major driver of incarceration, with about forty two percent 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.680 of our jails and prisons being filled with people who 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.760 committed a violation of probation or parole. And sometimes those 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.880 aren't even new crimes. In fact, a lot of the 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.840 time is just a technical violation like the one that 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.120 they thought my ex husband had done with not reporting. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.640 So ultimately this ends up compromising our public safety because 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.440 so many resources are going into this system which could 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:21.440 otherwise be spent on preventing crimes, solving crimes, treating the 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.039 really serious crimes, making sure they're supervising people who really 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.520 need it. So we set out at Reform Alliance to 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.320 bring change to the system, and of course it started 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:36.440 with one person. It started with artist Meek Mill, who 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.640 was a big rapper in Pennsylvania who had been convicted 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:42.800 of a crime when he was eighteen and had been 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.680 on probation for his entire adult life, about twelve years 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.800 at that point, and he had a judge who was 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.800 a real stickler. She looked for ways to send him 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.159 back into prison, and at one point he received a 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.080 technical violation because he had broken up a fight at 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.919 an airport and he had popped a wheelie on his 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.520 motorcycle in a music video, which apparently is not legal. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.520 So she said, you know what, You're going back to prison, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.840 and she sentenced him to two to four years in prison. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.560 But luckily for meek Mill, he had some very powerful 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.480 friends and they pulled together and ran a campaign. I 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.040 was honored at the time to be a part of it, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.680 and were able to actually get him out. They spent 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:35.120 about seven million dollars on getting him out right. And 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.800 the kicker there is that later the underlying crime that 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:41.960 he had been sentenced for and the reason he's on 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.360 probation in the first place. He was actually exonerated for. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.960 So he was innocent and just placed on supervision for 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.280 this whole time. But when he came out, he did 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:54.920 something that I think surprised a lot of us, and 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.520 he said, listen, I could go on tour and keep 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.200 making music, and I will do that, but I also 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.400 feel like I need to do more and I need 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.560 to help the men and women that I left behind. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.640 And so he pulled everybody together and we have the 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:14.600 most unlikely board, everybody from Bob Kraft to Michael Rubin 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.440 to jay Z Meek Mill. He pulled everybody together and 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:19.800 Reform Alliance was born. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.280 That's an amazing story. How long have you been with 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:24.200 Reform Alliance? 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.000 So I like to say I was here pre Reform Alliance, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.880 since I worked on the campaign to Free Meek, but 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.440 I've been here since its inception, which was January twenty third, 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.520 twenty nineteen. I started out as our Chief Advocacy Officer, 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.400 so overseeing all of the policy work, all of the 0:08:41.520 --> 0:09:00.600 organizing work. And I was named CEO last year in August. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.120 And you all have been both effective at the federal 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.600 level but also at the state level. And I want 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.520 to start at the state level. Now. I think passed 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.480 twenty bills in twelve different states, and you just passed 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.240 two major reforms in Virginia and Maryland. Can you give 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.480 us a flavor of what you're doing. 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.520 Yes, And I will say we also had another win 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.160 in Virginia just Friday night, So we've now passed twenty 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.520 one bills in twelve states. Very exciting. So we just 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.880 passed two major reforms in Virginia and Maryland, both of 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.080 which had strong bipartisan support, which you don't see on 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.480 a whole lot of issues these days. They also had 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.160 an incredible coalition, so people on both sides of the aisle, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:50.280 business leaders, faith leaders, community leaders that came together along 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.079 with the backing of law enforcement and said that they 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.439 felt strongly these changes needed to be made to the system. 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.839 There So, in terms of what our bills do, they 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.720 offer people who are on supervision, probation or parole a 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.680 way to earn their way off sooner by taking life 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.520 changing classes or working or seeking treatment. If they have 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.080 any mental health or substance abuse issues, they can earn 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:20.160 credits that help them get off of probation and parole sooner. 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.440 This is both in the interest of the individual but 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.200 also really in the interest of the community, because what 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.200 we've seen is when people are getting their education, when 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.240 they're working, when they're getting the mental health help that 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:36.360 they need, that they're actually able to turn their lives 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.360 around and are way more likely to be successful and 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:44.720 become employed, tax paying citizens than people who just come 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.839 out and don't have those kind of programs available or 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.800 aren't incentivized to do those programs. So it's really in 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.280 the interest of public safety, which I think is why 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.120 you saw such a broad support. We also work to 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.840 make sure that the conditions that are placed on people 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.960 actually bear a rational relationship to the crime that was committed. 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.920 For example, right now, if you were to shoplift in 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.240 some states, you might get a long list of conditions 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.880 when you're put on probation that include things like you 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.680 can't be in the presence of alcohol. Well, that means 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.280 that you can't go to mom's house on Christmas Eve 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.720 if she's going to have a glass of wine without 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.200 being in violation of your probation. Right Or you might 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.600 see a condition that says you can't open a bank 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.840 account or take out a loan, So how are you 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.840 going to get that car to get you back and 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.920 forth to work. So we work to make sure that 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.480 the conditions that people do have on them while they're 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.320 on probation or parole are actually ones that are in 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.200 the interest of public safety and ones that make it 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.360 manageable and don't just create a trip wire for people 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.239 to go back to prisons in jails. 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.600 Partally I'm struck with is that we've inherited a system 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.400 that grew up randomly in all fifty s in the 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:05.920 federal government, and which was a very control oriented system 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.839 rather than a success oriented system. It put lots of 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.079 power with the parole officer in a way which could 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:18.200 be abused, and it put a lot of things that 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.360 in abstract makes sense until you get into the real world, 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.720 and in the real world they're nuts. Talk just from 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:30.559 it about the gap between the possibilities of a really 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.320 effective system and how in many states it's still mired 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.480 in thirty and forty year old attitudes that actually make 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.880 it more likely people will go back to jail. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.000 Yeah, and I think it goes all the way back 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.360 to the beginning of probation and parole. In fact, back 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.640 in the eighteen hundreds, there was a man who convinced 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.000 one judge instead of incarcerating someone, to let him take 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.800 them under his wing and let them work with him, 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.160 and that he was going to guide them. I think 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.120 they had a bit of an alcohol problem. He was 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.240 going to help them turn their life around. And that 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.640 was really the foundation for probation and parrole. It's supposed 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.320 to help people get the resources and get the mentorship 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.080 that they need. It wasn't until the seventies when it 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:21.040 took a turn and became more of a corrections model itself. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.400 And that was for a myriad of reasons, but one 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:29.160 being that probation officers themselves wanted to be classified as 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.480 law enforcement and that would mean better benefits and more pay. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.880 But that also meant a real change in the culture, 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.439 a real shift in the culture of probation and parole officers. 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.840 So you started having more people from law enforcement and 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.280 fewer people with counseling backgrounds who had initially been called 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.360 to the work because they wanted to help counsel people 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.160 and mentor them into their new life. So even the 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.640 word supervision, right, no adult wants to be supervised, they 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.040 want to be supported. So it sets people up for 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.640 this situation where there's so many people who are on probation. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.480 The caseload numbers are absolutely insane. When we talk to 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.719 probation and parole officers, that's often the first thing they 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.800 say to us is I wish I didn't have this 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.800 many cases on my caseload because then I could actually 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.680 focus on the individuals who need help, or then I 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.800 could take the time to help somebody find housing or 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.400 help somebody find a job, as opposed to just violating 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.760 them when they haven't magically been able to find it 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.520 on their own. So it's really important that we change 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.560 the culture of probation. And there's some good organizations out 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.120 there that are working on this. I know the American 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.960 Probation and Parole Association where I've spoken a few times. 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.960 They're doing a lot of work with the probation officers 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.760 and parole officers to make sure that they have the 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.720 resources they need. But you also need the legislative changes, right, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.360 and that's where reform steps in because we're able to 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:01.640 work and decrease some of those caseloads by creating these incentives, 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.680 by creating early termination programs, and that way you see 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.360 the caseloads shrink and people can focus a little bit 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.640 more on those individuals and get them the help that 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:13.760 they need. But there's still a lot of work to 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.600 do on the culture. And I think you nail it 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:17.520 right on the head when you say, you know, these 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:22.000 are antiquated attitudes that they've got. I'm hoping that with 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.440 some of the technology improvements that we're able to see 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.360 a more rapid shift in the culture. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:29.840 Right. 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.120 What if you can give everybody who's on probation a 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.920 tablet that helps them with an AI assistant who can 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.040 help provide mental health support, can help them find a job, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.640 can do a skills assessment, right, figure out what their 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.640 next steps should be to get into a real career, 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.840 not just a job, but a real career with some 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.840 actual economic mobility, or even just helping them find housings. 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:57.640 So I'm hopeful that technology can rapidly advance the shift 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.920 in culture and reprayori tize helping people who are on 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.800 probation and parole succeed versus just trapping them and sending 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:06.240 them back. 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.960 One of the experiments we should be trying is to 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.320 just use smartphones so that when somebody on parole has 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.360 to check in, they don't have to leave their job, 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.400 lose a half day's pay, et cetera, to go to 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.400 a physical point if there was a way. And again, 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.960 with a GPS feet you're on the phone, you can 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.840 know where the person's calling from, so if they're actually 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.640 calling from work, they shall be able to check in 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.280 at minimum disruption, which maximizes they're keeping the job and 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.880 also minimize the time it takes for the parle. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:41.560 Officer right one hundred percent, And think how stigmatizing that 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.520 is for somebody who's on probation or parole. Here they 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.960 are at their job. Let's say they're out working in 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.800 an open bay in an office or working in a factory, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:55.160 whatever it might be. Currently probation officer would show up 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.480 there ask the employer, you know, where is so and 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.160 so have to walk over there physically check right. That 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:06.000 isn't a good system, and it probably discourages the employer 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.720 from hiring somebody who's on probation and parole in the future. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.320 And then you've also got, you know, on the flip side, 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.800 if they don't go to their place of employment. A 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:17.960 lot of the time, people on probation and parole are 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.560 required to go down to the office, and that can 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.840 be hours and hours out of their workday that they're 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:26.560 having to sit on a bus, go sit in a 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.880 crowded office, sometimes without any notice because of random drug testing, 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.320 and then make it back to work. And by then 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.240 the employer is put in a hard position, especially small 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.960 business owners. We hear from them a lot that they 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.560 can't hire somebody who's on probation and parole because they 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.680 can't afford to have an employee who has no notice 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:53.879 have to leave the job and not come back for hours. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:10.960 One of your great successes was President Trump embracing the 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.040 whole concept of the First Step Act, and really I 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.639 think having his eyes opened to being a very positive 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.919 force in this area. Can you talk a little bit 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.040 about the first step practice up, but also how you 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.280 managed to get Trump to adopt what's really a remarkably 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:27.639 reform oriented position. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.880 Well, first and foremost, I'll say it took a whole village. 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:36.320 It took incredible coalition, yourself included, to get him to 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:39.520 adopt this issue. But I think President Trump's leadership on 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.919 this issue shattered the false choice between being tough on 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.560 crime and or supporting sensible reforms that dramatically improve an 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.560 outdated system. It's absolutely a model for conservative led criminal 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.760 justice reform that actually enhances public safety. And you know, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.520 it wasn't just other people that were shocked. I think 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.600 being a Democrat from the Bay Area, I was at 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.760 that point mayor in a very blue city in the 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.160 San Francisco Bay Area, Mill Valley. You know, I don't 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.760 think that I ever anticipated working with President Trump. I'd 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.399 done a bunch of work with you in the past 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.679 few years prior to that, But when Jared Kushner called 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.800 over to Van Jones and said, Hey, I have an 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.200 issue that I think we might be able to work 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.399 together on, I was shocked. And you know, I'll be honest, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.439 the left at the time was not very open to 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:36.439 people within the Democratic Party working across the aisle with 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.520 that administration. And I was very concerned what was going 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.119 to happen for Van and even for myself if we 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.800 went to the White House and worked with the Trump administration. 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.679 And I remember I talked to Van about it. I 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.400 approached him and I said, you know, do you really 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.240 think this is a good idea? And he said something 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.880 that stuck with me for a very long time, and 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.600 he said, listen, Jessica. At the time, there were one 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.159 hundred eighty thousand people in federal prison. He said, Jessica, 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.320 there's one hundred and eighty thousand people that he's got 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.520 in the palm of his hand. And I can't be 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:10.679 worried about what people are going to say on Twitter, 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.240 because my worst day on Twitter is better than anybody's 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.120 best day in prison. And we need to make some 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.239 changes if we can. And so we did, and we 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:22.359 went to the White House, and you know, we worked 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.280 with conservatives, and since then, many conservative governors, state legislators, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.919 lawmakers in the House and the Senate have kept the 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.480 ball moving forwards. So it wasn't just the First Step Act, 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.960 which by the way, has helped about seventy thousand Americans 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:40.199 behind bars. It had a trickle down effect across the 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.840 country where the next year after the First Step Act 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:46.520 was passed, you saw about thirteen First Step Act bills 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.600 introduced on the state level. You even saw on the 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:53.720 local level leaders starting to look at how they could 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.320 reduce the cost of jails in their communities and bring 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.000 people home in ways of to what we had done 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.560 in the First Step Act. And a lot of law 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.360 enforcement leaders as well had joined us. So it's absolutely 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.680 amazing what was able to happen, and it took a 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.000 whole village, but it couldn't have happened without President Trump's leadership. 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.520 You coined a great phrase at one point, you said, 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:19.760 tough on crime can mean smart on solutions. Yes, I 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.960 just think that is a fabulous explanation. And of course, 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.119 the First Step Act reduced recidivism going back to jail 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:32.160 to nine point seven percent compared to fifty to eighty percent, 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.400 which means there are thousands and thousands of people who, 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:40.840 because the system has been improved, are working, paying taxes, 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.720 being citizens, being with their family who before the First 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.600 Step Act probably would have ended up going back. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:50.640 To jail absolutely. And of that nine point five percent, 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:53.880 about four percent of them are people who are being 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:58.960 sent back just for technical violations. And that's where reform 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.280 had kind of an ah. You know, We've done a 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:03.639 lot of work on the local level, We've done a 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:06.080 lot of work on the state level. We've even done 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.960 international work. In fact, last year we passed the first 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:13.800 resolution in the United Nations Human Rights Council on reentry 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:19.080 and creating social reintegration guidelines for member States. But we 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.320 hadn't done anything on the federal level yet. And it 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.080 wasn't until I saw that report on the First Step 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.160 Act to come out and I realized what a large percentage. 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.920 I mean, that's almost half of the people being returned. 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.400 We're just being returned for technical violations. So we saw 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.720 a real opportunity to continue building on the great success 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.240 of the First Step Act and these smart on crime 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.480 reforms that we'd been doing at the state level, and 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.399 update our severely outdated federal supervision system with the Safer 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:52.199 Supervision Act, which is legislation that we have worked on 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.600 for the last three years on the federal level that's 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.280 about to be reintroduced into Congress that would bring some 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.879