1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of the News World. President Trump was 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: elected with a mandate to secure the border and enforce 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: immigration law, revitalize our national defense, on leish America's energy resources, 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: and cut wasteful and fraudulent government spending that has driven inflation. 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: To deliver on this agenda, Congress will need to fund 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: these priorities. Here to talk about the federal budget, spending priorities, 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: and the budget reconciliation process, I'm really pleased to welcome 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: my guests, Richard Stern, Director of the Grover M. Hermann 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: Center for the Federal Budget at the Heritage Foundation. Prior 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: to joining Heritage, Stern was a Congressional staffer for over 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: seven years. During that time, he served as a policy 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: staffer for the Republican Study Committee, where he was the 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: staff lead for their Budget and Spending Task Force and 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: spearheaded their work to create their Fiscal Year twenty twenty 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: and Fiscal Year twenty twenty two federal budgets. Richard, welcome, 16 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me the News World. 17 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on today. 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: I think it will be really helpful because, as you know, 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: this is very complicated, and so we want everybody to 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: have a sort of baseline knowledge. So let's just start 21 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: with it very simple. Can you explain the difference between 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: a reconciliation bill and a regular spending bill? 23 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely? And thank you for having me on for the 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: conversation today. I think, as a lot of people are 25 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: starting to learn more about you would think that having 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: control over the House and the Senate means that you 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: would well have control over the House and the Senate. 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: But the truth is you need sixty votes in the 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: Senate to be able to clear a normal spending bill, 30 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: and in fact, sixty votes in the Senate to clear 31 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: any normal piece of legislation. And so the thing that 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: a reconciliation bill does is it unlocks a magic fifty 33 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: vote threshold with the Vice President as the tiebreaker to 34 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: clear through the Senate. Now, mostly parties never have sixty 35 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: votes in the Senate. Even with Trump's mandate, Republicans still 36 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: don't have anywhere near sixty votes in the Senate, but 37 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: they can get fifty votes, and Advance of course can 38 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: break the tie. And so that's why reconciliation perhaps is 39 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: the only way to get major legislative wins through the 40 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 2: US Senate this Congress. 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: I never thought about it till we have this conversation 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: with why did the reconciliation processes, as why did the 43 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: Senate carve out that one place where fifty votes plus 44 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: the vice president is able to move something. 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: Well, this is, i like to say, is one of 46 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: those cases of unintended consequences in government. And this actually 47 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: gets back to why it's even called reconciliation at all. 48 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: That sounds like an odd term for it. It's that 49 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: fifty years ago, fifty one years ago, in nineteen seventy four, 50 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: Congress created the budget process. In fact, both budget committees 51 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: the entire concept of having a federal budget, and they 52 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: did it, at least in some part because they were 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: already worried about entitlement spending and runaway autopilot government spending 54 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: leading us to an unmanageable debt. Of course, as we know, 55 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: we solve that problem weight just kidding, and so we're 56 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: still in the throes of dealing with the problems from that. 57 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: But one of the things they did in the budget 58 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: process was create a way to reconcile differences between the 59 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: existing budget trajectory and the planned budget trajectory. So this 60 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: reconciliation bill was supposed to be a minor way of 61 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: making a handful of changes to reconcile between the real 62 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: budget path and the planned budget path. That's why it 63 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: has these so called expedited lower vote threshold consideration processes 64 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: in the Senate. But it was, as you can imagine, 65 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: not at all meant to be a vehicle of major 66 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: legislative making. But again on attended consequences. 67 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: It's sort of mutated into the most important single bill 68 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: of the year. Absolutely talk about a great example of 69 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: evolution occurring in a way you could not have predicted 70 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: at the time. But it's more complicated to understand it 71 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: because you have kind of three things. You have appropriation bills, 72 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: you have a reconciliation bill, but then you also have 73 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: a continuing resolution which keeps the government running until they 74 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: pass the appropriations bills. And as I understand it, the 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: current Continuing resolution, what we would have called a CR 76 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: back when I was in Congress, is set to expire 77 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: on March fourteenth. I mean, your judgment, is Congress going 78 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: to be able to avoid a government shutdown? 79 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: Well, so I think Congress probably will, or it might 80 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: shut down over the weekend, which is I think Congress's 81 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: favorite thing to do. Because keep in mind, Congress really 82 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: is a soap opera most of the time, masquerading as 83 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: a legislative body. Owing to everything we've talked about so far, 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: I think the important part here for all the listeners 85 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: is that a continued resolution is when you can't get 86 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: to an agreement about all of the funding for what 87 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: you normally think of as the government. So this is 88 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: all of the regulatory agencies, the military, transportation, things of 89 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,799 Speaker 2: that nature. And again that's a bill that needs sixty votes, 90 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: so it always needs to be a bipartisan bill. This 91 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: is now going to be the expiration of the second 92 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: cr extending an appropriations bill from late last year, and 93 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 2: that's because twice Congress wasn't able to agree on a 94 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 2: future path for spending. My guess is with reconciliation going 95 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: on and everything else, they're likely to do yet another 96 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: sea having now the third iteration of it dragging on 97 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: further into the seal. 98 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: We've had three pretty big government shutdowns twenty one days 99 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: in ninety five, ninety six when I was speaker, sixteen 100 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: days under Obama, and then the thirty five days shutdown 101 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: during Trump's first administration. And I have to say I'm 102 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: probably a minority in Washington. I thought the twenty one 103 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: days we shut down against Clinton in ninety five early 104 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: ninety six was actually vital in convincing the president that 105 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: we were really serious about cutting spending and really serious 106 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: about getting to a balanced budget. And I always felt 107 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: if we had not done that that, in fact, we 108 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: probably would have lost the House in ninety six, which 109 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: we became the first re elected Republican majority since nineteen 110 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: twenty eight. And I think it's because people decided we 111 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: were real that we were prepared to do what it took. 112 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: But the Washington press corps and the Congress often gets 113 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: panic ridden about this notion. As you look added, do 114 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: you think they probably will be able to patch something 115 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: together to keep things moving while they're negotiating. 116 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of everything that you did in 117 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: the nineties on that. I agree with your read entirely that, 118 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: as you said, it showed that the Republican Congress was 119 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: serious at the time. I think one of the things 120 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: that we've come to realize is Doge is serious. Doge 121 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: is the kind of mirror image, if you will. It's 122 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: a serious effort from the administration to cut spending the 123 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: way that the shutdown you're talking about was a serious 124 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: signal from Congress thirty years ago that Congress is willing 125 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: to cut spending. I think part of the problem we 126 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 2: see here is that Congress doesn't seem to have that resolve. Again, 127 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: that there is that resolve in the admin at the 128 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: level of DOGE, but it doesn't seem to exist within 129 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: the Congress. So the truth then is, if Congress wanted 130 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: to try to shut down the government to force a 131 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: conversation about spending cuts, I think most people would say 132 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: that it's a bluff that could be called, which is 133 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,119 Speaker 2: why I think they're probably likely the patch together either 134 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: some other short term funding bill like a CR or 135 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: rather milk toast fully year appropriations bill that at this 136 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: point only has about half the fiscal year left to go. 137 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: But it's precisely because there doesn't seem to be that 138 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: kind of resolve or focus on actually cutting spending. 139 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: One of the things which makes it very complicated in 140 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: which we had to overcome when we balance the budget 141 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties, is it a lot of members 142 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: I think plays too great a value on kind of 143 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: pork barrel spending for back home and you can end 144 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: up with bills that have all sorts of interesting but 145 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily vital projects. Chalk just briefly from your perspective 146 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: about the role of pork barrel spending and the degree 147 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: to which it's a challenge in terms of trying to 148 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: get the budget under control. 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: It is a tremendous problem. And actually it's something that 150 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: Totakeville called out when he came to America. So he 151 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: of course famously came two hundred years ago, wrote about 152 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: the US entrepreneurial, dynamic, and innovative spirit of America. But 153 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: he warned in his book that this will continue in America, 154 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: this dynamism and entrepreneurialism, right up until the moment that 155 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 2: the American public realizes that they can raid the public 156 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 2: treasury for their own benefit. And that is so tragically 157 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: precisely what happens in DC. We have trillions and trillions 158 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: of dollars of spending that represent exactly that kind of 159 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: pork barrel spending, that kind of raiding the public treasury 160 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: your tax dollars or having the Fed print inflationary dollars 161 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: just the send home benefits to a concentrated few, and 162 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: so breaking Congress of that habit. Frankly, convincing voters that 163 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: government spending always comes at your expense, whether it's your 164 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: tax dollars or it's what trigger's inflation. That's what's essential here. 165 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: But I know for me, it's also a faith issue. 166 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: It's convincing people that you have to have faith that 167 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: the private sector is where prosperity comes from, that it 168 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: does not come from government redistributing wealth or conferring benefits 169 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: on anybody. But if we can get back to that spirit, 170 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 2: then we can break the pork barrel issue and break 171 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: its hold over Congress. 172 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: As you watch the current state of play, as you know, 173 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: the Send and the House are in very different places 174 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: and how they want to approach this. Can you sort 175 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: of outline for us what the two positions are and 176 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: why you think they're different. 177 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think important to what we're talking about here 178 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: is this really two types of spending. There is what's 179 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 2: called discretionary spending, which is covered by the appropriations bills, 180 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: including the continued Resolutions, and again, as I said, that's 181 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: all the funding for regulatory agencies, the military, highway funding, 182 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: things of that nature. Then there's mandatory spending. Mandatory spending 183 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: you can touch in a reconciliation bill, where the appropriations 184 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: we were talking about are off the table for a 185 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: reconciliation bill. So you can think of appropriations as dealing 186 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: with that first bucket of spending, and reconciliations dealing with 187 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: a second bucket. Mandatory of course, deals with and titlements 188 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: and healthcare, welfare, but also myriad of other programs. I 189 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: think what's been interesting about this is, well, there seems 190 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: to be no consensus in either the House or Senate 191 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: on the first bucket of spending cuts, appropriations, discretioning money. 192 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: There is this real conversation about cutting mandatory spending. So, 193 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: as you alluded to, the Senate has put together a 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: framework that would require a paltry three billion dollars of 195 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: mandatory spending cuts at a minimum. Now they could cut more, 196 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: but that's the floor. The House, on the other hand, 197 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: is put together a bill that would require at a 198 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: minimum one and a half half trillion dollars of spending 199 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: cuts over the next ten years. And if they get 200 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: more spending cuts on top of the one and a 201 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: half trillion, they can then apply it to further cutting taxes. 202 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: So again, as you said, a tale of two congressional 203 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: chambers to very different approaches to trying to get mandatory 204 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: spending cuts this year. 205 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: Why do you think the two bodies, both Republican, are 206 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: so dramatically different in how they're approaching this. 207 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: So the question here comes down to, in essence, whether 208 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: you think Congress will actually approve those kind of cuts. 209 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: And again this gets back to can we restore the 210 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: resolve of ninety five and ninety six versus how quickly 211 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: do you want to get more money into the border 212 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: to deportations, interior immigration enforcement, and defense spending. So perfect 213 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: example is both the Senate and House frameworks would allow 214 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: for several hundred billion dollars of border and immigration and 215 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: force of money and money for the defense department. But 216 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 2: the Senates produced a framework where you could just do that, 217 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: You could just spend several hundred billion dollars on these 218 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: priorities and not have to cut spending as well. The House, 219 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: on the other hand, allows for that kind of border 220 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: and defense money. However, you would need to get the 221 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: requisite spending cuts we're talking about now. The other thing, 222 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: of course, is the House is following what President Trump 223 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 2: has asked for, which is this framework would also allow 224 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 2: for four and a half trillion dollars of tax cuts. 225 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: But again, to unlock the tax cuts and to unlock 226 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: the border and defense money in the House framework, you 227 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: would need to actually get the one and a half 228 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: trillion of spending cuts across the line. The Senate is 229 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: looking at a much more limited quick package just to 230 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: do a few hundred billion for border and defense money. 231 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: Dealing with spending cuts and tax cuts later in the year. 232 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: I have to confess my real fear is that if 233 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: we don't pass the tax cut by May or June, 234 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: they're going to go into effect so late that we 235 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: will have a week twenty twenty six economically, and that 236 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: will doom the House Republicans to being in the minority, 237 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: which I think will be a total disaster for Trump. 238 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: I don't bright back to the Nancy Pelosi kind of warfare, 239 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: and yet we don't seem able to get that across 240 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: to senators. 241 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: And some of the House members. Of course, in fact, 242 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: the reason why the House requires that minimum one and 243 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: a half trillion of spending cuts is to appease some 244 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: House members who are concerned with passing the full tax 245 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: cuts without offsetting with some spending cuts. But I think 246 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: to your point on that it gets to the heart 247 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: of the trade off conversation, which is that absolutely, if 248 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: the tax cuts don't get done early in the year, 249 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: or frankly, if they don't get done at all, we 250 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: would see thousands of dollars of tax increases on American 251 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: middle class families, on American small businesses that would of 252 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: course tank economic growth or delay it exactly the way 253 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: you're talking about. But there is one other part of 254 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: this that's important, of course, which is that we've run 255 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: unprecedented deficits. We have a debt that is now two 256 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 2: hundred and seventy three thousand dollars per household. Mortgage rates 257 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: are still at seven percent, Inflation is still stubbornly at 258 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: three percent, and so those extra senators and House members 259 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: are concerned that if we do the tax cuts without 260 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: spending cuts, it'll blow up the deficit, and they're concerned 261 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: they'll should get more inflation, even higher interest rates, and 262 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: then that will counteract both kind of on the ground 263 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: mechanically about the economy, but certainly in terms of political sentiments. 264 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: What good comes from the tax cuts. Really, the way 265 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: I see it, it's this trade off conversation that's going 266 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: on in Congress that's stymying the process. 267 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm puzzled because when I look at what Elon Musk 268 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: is doing and what Doose's doing, it seems to me 269 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: that they just buy to make America great again and 270 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: making America healthy again. If they adopted a principle of 271 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: making America honest again, they probably could get a trillion 272 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: dollars just by not paying crooks. I mean, it's astounding 273 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: how much money goes out there that isn't real. It's 274 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: not helping people, and it's literally in some cases just 275 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: sloppiness and ineptness of the cases. You know, it's genuine theft. 276 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: It's almost as though the President is breaking loose and 277 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: is doing things that are very bold, that the Congress 278 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: is still stuck inside the framework of the old order. 279 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think you could put it better than that. 280 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: You know, on average, in a year, the government is 281 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: willing to admit that some four hundred billion dollars is 282 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: lost in waste the way you're talking about. To put 283 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,359 Speaker 2: that in perspective, that's about twelve hundred dollars a year 284 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: per American family. So you think of your own household budget, 285 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: you are spending about one hundred dollars a month from 286 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: your household on this kind of the exact government waste 287 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: in corruption, but I should say on the waste in 288 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 2: corruption that the government is willing to report is happening. 289 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right that a more honest capture 290 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: of that is easily a trillion or more dollars a year. 291 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 2: But I think you're right. Part of this is that 292 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: Congress has seen decades at this point of a lot 293 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: of talk on further cutting spending and dealing with waste, 294 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: fraud and abuse that in the last twenty five or 295 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: so years hasn't come to fruition, hasn't actually been codified. 296 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: So I think their gun shy to believe that these 297 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: will hold up in court, that these will continue to happen, 298 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: or frankly, that their fellow members of Congress will allow 299 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: the fiscal hawks to actually codify these cuts, to codify 300 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: these transparent, honest fixes you're talking about, to make sure 301 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: that we can stop this waste will spending going forward. 302 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 2: And I think that's why their mindset is still stuck 303 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: in that viewpoint. 304 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: It's fascinatingly because when we passed welfare reform and we 305 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: invented Medicare advantage. These things were real. This wasn't just 306 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: some pious resolution, and they stuck. I mean, eventually the 307 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: Liberals tried to gradually walk back requiring people to work, 308 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: but on balance they had a huge impact, the largest 309 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: increase of children leaving poverty as their parents got jobs. 310 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: If we had had this information when I was Speaker, 311 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: and we could go to the country and say not 312 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: one penny for crooks, that's a pretty good battle cry 313 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: for explaining what you're trying to do. I look back 314 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: at it. We were the only four consecutive balanced budgets 315 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: in the last hundred years. But we did it by 316 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: a combination of real reforms. Which is why I'm very 317 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: intrigued with what Elon is doing. Because Elon is in 318 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: doge as creating the information base by which we could 319 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: win a huge argument with the American people basically on 320 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: a choice. I mean, if you want to continue are 321 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: you paying crooks, vote Democrat. If you would like to 322 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: save the money and only give it to people who 323 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: are honest, then vote Republican. Just strikes me that that 324 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: would be such a relatively easy structure for a campaign. Boy, 325 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: it's really hard to get house and center Republicans to understand. 326 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: It, Oh absolutely. I think the best description I've heard 327 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: is it's like hurting mercurial cats. But to your point 328 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: on that, I think that in the nineties you had 329 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: something of a workable partner on the other side. It's 330 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: not that the left weren't still crooks. It's not that 331 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: they weren't funneling your tax dollars to left wing organizations. 332 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: That was still going on. The way that I view 333 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: it as, the Democrat Party at the time was still 334 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: a chiefly American party in terms of their values and 335 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: their views. They just liked to big government and they 336 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 2: didn't care as much about debt. I think the problem 337 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: we've got now is that so much of the other 338 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: side is just wrapped in this cultural transformation of the 339 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 2: country into this into this attempt, frankly, to create an 340 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 2: autocratic society that's devoid of any traditional American values. And 341 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: so it means that to actually get real reform to 342 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: deal with the corruption, you don't just need a majority 343 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 2: of Congress. You need to have a near unanimous vote 344 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: from the group of Congress that still believes in American values, 345 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: that still believes in honesty and transparency and respecting taxpayer dollars. 346 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: And so it's that unanimally you need from the people 347 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: who still care. That is the problem, because the entire 348 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: other side no longer is ashamed that there's corruption. They 349 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: live for that corruption. We've seen it in their protests 350 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: barricading doors to USAID, where they have actually actively defended 351 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: the money laundering and the corruption. And I think that 352 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: might be the most tragic thing that has changed in 353 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: American politics in these last few decades. 354 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: Correct me if you don't agree with this. It seems 355 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: to me you've got two different patterns emerging among Democrats. 356 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: One is kind of a we want the money pattern 357 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: and they don't actually care whether twenty or thirty or 358 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: forty percent of it's totally inappropriate, as long as they 359 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: get theirs. And the other is the most radical elements. 360 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: It's almost a religion. They believe it so deeply and 361 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: it's so ingrained. They can't learn from defeat because they 362 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: have to reject the whole proposition of having been defeated 363 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: and say, yes, but we are of the true faith, 364 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: and the true faith will endure. I mean, does that 365 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: two part model make sense to you? 366 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: I think you hit the nail right on the head there. 367 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: And you know, part of that problem, of course, is 368 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: that because as you said, they're now zealots. For them, 369 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: a defeat or an embarrassment is merely a minor setback 370 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: on what they view as a grand path to this 371 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: religious conversion of the country. And I think you're absolutely 372 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 2: correct about that, and that's part of what is so 373 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: sad to see. I think even when Bill Clinton was president, 374 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: he wasn't a pure socialist. He certainly supported things that 375 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 2: were socialistic. But to your point, now, I think they're 376 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: willing to take their money even if ninety percent of 377 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 2: it is inappropriate, because they truly believe in moving the 378 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 2: ownership of everything in the country into the hands of 379 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: their profered bureaucrats. They believe in effectively conveying titles of 380 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 2: nobility to the business people, to the Soroses of the world, 381 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: who they would like to have running everything. And that 382 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: is that fundamental shift to a party that, as I said, frankly, 383 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 2: doesn't share any real American values anymore. 384 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: Which means that you know, there are thirteen congressional districts 385 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: with Democrats that Trump carried. They're twenty one more with 386 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: Democrats that Trump got within five percent. With the kind 387 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: of information we're getting from Elon Musk in the Doze Project, 388 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 1: it seems somebody that the pressure on those vulnerable Democrats 389 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: could become almost unbearable in terms of they're either going 390 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: to vote with us or whether they get voted out. 391 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: What do you think. 392 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 2: I think that certainly opens up pressure that we haven't 393 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 2: seen before and haven't had before. I think even mind, 394 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: of course, on the other side of that, their leadership 395 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 2: knows that and is holding out these massive carrots to them, frankly, 396 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: holding out carrots to their donors, to their business owners, 397 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: saying we will give you more and more taxpayer funding. 398 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 2: And so I think that they're looking at this balance 399 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 2: of what you're talking about, that Trump has stirred up 400 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: a cultural movement that can flip their districts, and they're 401 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 2: looking at that against their own leadership, who is promising, frankly, 402 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: to use the deep state to send more benefits their 403 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: way into that of their donors. I think how that 404 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: shakes out, certainly twenty twenty six and twenty twenty eight 405 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 2: is going to perhaps direct the entire future of the country, 406 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 2: whether we can get those votes or not. I'd add 407 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: in as well, of course as a link or an issue. 408 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 2: The failure to get the census back in twenty twenty 409 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: to account for illegal immigrants is the other reason why 410 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 2: Republicans are down perhaps a dozen and a half seats 411 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: in the House of Representatives. And while we still have 412 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 2: five years before the next census, that is going to 413 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: continue to be a major issue that the Left is 414 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: going to hope to capitalize on again. 415 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: I mean, don't we need to pass all that says 416 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: you only count legal citizens and green card holders. If 417 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: somebody's there illegally, why are you counting them? Then that's 418 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be there exactly. 419 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: And the Trump had been tried through rule making to 420 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: do it, and quite frankly, and I know the people 421 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: that were there trying to do this, the Deep States 422 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 2: stopped them. I mean, just as a horror story of this, 423 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 2: the career civil servants and I use the term servant 424 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 2: loosely who worked on that rule intentionally put in things 425 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: that the courts would strike down about it, just so 426 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: that when it failed in court and they didn't have 427 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: time to change it again, they then went back to 428 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: the politicos and said, we intentionally did this, We intentionally 429 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: failed at our job to tank this rule to keep 430 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: the legal aliens being counted in the census, and they 431 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: could not be disciplined or fired because of the bulwark 432 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: of laws that protect the federal civil service. This is 433 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 2: one of those stories that I think everybody needs to 434 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: hear about exactly how entrenched and how protected the deep 435 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: state is, and exactly how nefarious their activities are. USA Idea, 436 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 2: of course, has yet another one of those, but a 437 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: more recent one. 438 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: I've been telling people that one of the things that 439 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: distinguishes Reagan from Trump is that Reagan was the most 440 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: conservative president within the framework of the establishment. Trump has now, 441 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: I think, partly been radicalized by twenty twenty and the 442 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: treatment he got after twenty twenty. Partly his entire team, 443 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: some four hundred people who were the America First part Institute, 444 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: and then the folks who are at Heritage and elsewhere. 445 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: Somehow under Biden there was a collective radicalization that said, 446 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: the system really is sick. They are really dedicated to 447 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: values which will destroy America. They are so incompetent of 448 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: what they're doing, whether it's Afghanistan or spending money, that 449 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: all of this has to be changed profoundly. And so 450 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: you now have a president who I think in his 451 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: first month is already the most consequential president since FDR, 452 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: and if he keeps going at this rate, he'll presently 453 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: be the most consequential president after Washington and Lincoln, because 454 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: he may well literally break up an establishment which has 455 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: been here now since nineteen thirty three. 456 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: I think you're right about that. I think the other 457 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: president I compare him to is Andrew Jackson. And again, 458 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,239 Speaker 2: this is one of these where I think in some 459 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: ways Andrew Jackson's underrated because he did precisely the same thing. 460 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: He broke up the establishment time he got rid of 461 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of federal central planning of the economy, 462 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: getting rid of the Federal Bank, things of that nature, 463 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: in making sure that the vote went out to everyone, 464 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: not just people who own property. And so it's one 465 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 2: of those where I think if Andrew Jackson had not 466 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: broken up the DC establishment that way, it probably would 467 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: have derailed all of the things that have been great 468 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: that the US has achieved since the eighteen thirty So 469 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: I think he's a little underrated because I think people 470 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: have taken for granted what he did to get America 471 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 2: on its path to manifest destiny, to being that beacon 472 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: for the world. And I think we're looking at again 473 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 2: yet another entrenched establishment that can derail for perhaps centuries. 474 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 2: The future of the US is on the path for 475 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 2: and I think to your point, Trump is exactly the 476 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: person who comes fully outside of the establishment, who can 477 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: break them up and then re return that power to 478 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 2: the people, to the States, and get us back on 479 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 2: course for an even greater future. 480 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't read you more. When we were thinking through 481 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: the election of nineteen ninety four and creating a contract 482 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: with America, we used remedies the election of eighteen twenty eight, 483 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: which is a great study of Jackson, who remember, feels 484 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: that he came in first, he had about forty percent, 485 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: but the other two candidates ganged up on him, and 486 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: so in his mind, much like Trump's attitude towards the 487 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: twenty twenty election. You know, he had been denied which 488 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: should have been the presidency, which radicalized him, and then 489 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: they waged war for four years. Mean that campaign is 490 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: one of the most amazing campaigns in American history. And 491 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,479 Speaker 1: of course, in exactly the establishment tradition, the largest single 492 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: institution in the country was the Bank of the States, 493 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: and it had to be rechartered. This charter was running 494 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: out and Jackson blocked it. And I mean that was 495 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: a real all out fight over the nature of America 496 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: and whether we should be dominated by a single big 497 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: bank or we should in fact have a series of 498 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: state banks. And you can argue later theoretically that there 499 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: are a lot of downsides to the state bank model, 500 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: but in terms of a profound shift of power and 501 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: a willingness to take on the sort of country club 502 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: Yale Harvard crowd, to use our modern version, Jackson is 503 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: absolutely an archetype for what Trump has been doing, except 504 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: that I think Trump's more methodical, actually bolder, and more 505 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: determined to break up the system on a much broader 506 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 1: basis than Jackson would ever dreamed of. 507 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: Well, I agree, but I think the bulwark that Jackson 508 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 2: was looking at was still in its crip. And so Jackson, 509 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: I think, did that great gift by breaking up this establishment, 510 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: by breaking up the banks of what you're talking about, 511 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: prior to becoming fatal to the US, we have now 512 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: tragically seen fifty almost sixty years of the expansion of 513 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: the regulatory state, the welfare state. Things that you were 514 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: able obviously to have an enormous impact in blunting the 515 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: growth of in the nineties, but they still are there. 516 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: They've still grown. And of course, from now, at the 517 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: point where the federal government consumes a quarter of every 518 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: dollar earned in America, where the Code of Regulations is 519 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: quite literally hundreds of thousands of pages long, the cost 520 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: of regulations might be as high as fifty thousand dollars 521 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: per American household, if not higher in fact. So I 522 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: think to your point on that, Yes, Trump and his 523 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: team I think are bolder, They're more methodical, but the 524 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: threat is also larger. Jackson unfortunately was dealing with it 525 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: in its infancy. It's now a very strong adult right now. 526 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: But it is that two centuries later, a return of 527 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: this he real city, deep state that seeks to control 528 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 2: everything again, completely opposite the founding values of the family 529 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: fathers of the American Revolution. Again, I think if we 530 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: fail here, hundreds of years from now, people will remember 531 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: this as the moment we lost to that fight. If 532 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: we win here tragically, they'll probably take it for granted, 533 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: but will know that we have saved the Republic and 534 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: put it back on course. 535 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: The greatness in order to win here. They have to 536 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: so thoroughly educate the American people about how sick the 537 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: system is that I suspect for two generations there'll be 538 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: the sense of awe that one that had got that bad, 539 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: and two that a handful of people had the guts 540 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: to fix it. I think in that sense, you and 541 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: I are privileged to be living in a period that's 542 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: really truly remarkable. 543 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely agree. 544 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: You know. 545 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: The other thing I think is going to be interesting 546 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: in that, of course, is that the last time this 547 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 2: happened in other periods in US history, we went to 548 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: an education system there was more government run that was 549 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 2: more about public schools. Obviously, some of these reforms, even 550 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt made, were right before the beginning of universal 551 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: public schooling. Now I think we're looking at the start 552 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: of a revolution back towards homeschooling, towards micro schooling i'd 553 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: like to call cul de sac schooling. And I think 554 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: that's going to help as well, because to your point 555 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: of the importance of making sure that everybody sees the darkness, 556 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: the manipulation, that they understand what the fight is that 557 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: homeschooling revolution is going to ensure. I think that generations 558 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: of Americans that come will really understand all of these things, 559 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: the level of depravity, frankly, of the deep state, and 560 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: that will continue that legacy and those values I think 561 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: for generations that come and make it easier, frankly, to 562 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: not relapse and let the deep state come back again. 563 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: Let me put it on the spot and ask you 564 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: what advice would you give to Speaker Mike Johnson. 565 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 2: The advice I'd give the him is to continue to 566 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: be bold on this. I think he and his team 567 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: have obviously tried the chart out. Of course here they 568 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: can do as Trump said, his one big, beautiful package. 569 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: But the advice I'd given, frankly, is be bolder about it, 570 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: and be bolder the way you're talking about, really go 571 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: to the American public and explain what's going on. We've 572 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: talked here a little bit about some of the numbers 573 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: and the brass tacks about mechanically what reconciliation is. But 574 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: most of the conversation you and I have had a 575 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: bit about these high minded philosophical things where we are 576 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: in time, what that will mean, how that will echo 577 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: into eternity. I think Johnson needs to do the same thing. 578 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: Take the case to the American public. Make it in 579 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: terms that are not about the numbers and sense, but 580 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: are about the values that underlie the numbers in a budget. 581 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: I think that's tremendous advice. I really drew whatever little 582 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: I know about politics from three major sources. One was Lincoln, 583 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: who said that with public sentiment, nothing can be defeated, 584 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: or nothing can fail. Without public sentiment, nothing can succeed. Reagan, 585 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: who said, at the end of his farewell address, people 586 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: said I won great legislative victories, but it was you, 587 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: the American people, who won them. And you may remember 588 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: that in passing the Reagan tax cut in the House, 589 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: he gave an oval office address explaining what was involved. 590 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: Tip O'Neil thought he was ahead by twenty six votes, 591 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,919 Speaker 1: and within four days he was behind by forty six. 592 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: So Reagan had had a seventy two vote swing in 593 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: the House based on one speech. And the third example 594 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: is Margaret Thatcher, who said, first you win the argument, 595 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: then you win the vote. And I think the importance 596 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: of what we're going through, the importance of reconciliation. I've 597 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: been telling people, if you're going to have a revolutionary president, 598 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,959 Speaker 1: you have to have a revolutionary Congress, and in both 599 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: the House and Senate. Right now, Republicans are too timid 600 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: and they need to realize that they're at a historic 601 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: inflection point, at a crossroads of enormous opportunity, and just 602 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: go for absolutely. 603 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: My version of that story is that what you need 604 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 2: are visionary leaders, and I think that you always certainly 605 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: need a body as large as Congress. You'll always get 606 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: people who might vote the right way, will be timid 607 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 2: doing it. Those seventy six votes that shifted over, I'm 608 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: sure did it with some doubts, but they had a 609 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 2: revolutionary and visionary leader in the form of Reagan. And 610 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: I think again here Trump is that as well Johnson 611 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 2: can be. And I think that's the important thing that 612 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 2: matters to your point. The Thatcher did, that Lincoln did, 613 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 2: that Reagan did, was they cast a vision for the 614 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: American public and for Congress of what the future could 615 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 2: look like. They weren't just there to warm the seat. 616 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 2: They weren't just there to shepherd things through Congress. They 617 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: were there to paint a bold image of what the 618 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 2: country meant, of what it can mean, and what it 619 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 2: can achieve in the future. If we have the faith 620 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: today to take those hard votes and to make those 621 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 2: hard decisions. 622 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more, you know, Richard, I 623 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: really want to think thank you for joining me. You 624 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: know so much about this and our listeners can follow 625 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: your work at the Heritage Foundation by visiting Heritage dot org. 626 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: And this has really been I think, a very very 627 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: helpful conversation. 628 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's 629 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 2: been a pleasure and I always love to have these 630 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: opportunities to really get into what's going on and how 631 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: to think about it. 632 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Richard Stern. You can learn 633 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: more about the Heritage Foundation on our show page at 634 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gingrish three 635 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our 636 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 637 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 638 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: gingrigh three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 639 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 640 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 641 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners, the news 642 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: World Concenter for my three free weekly column at gingrichwie 643 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingrich. This is newtsworld.